The Volokh Conspiracy
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Debating Birthright Citizenship (Again) [UPDATED]
The arguments are not new. The willingness of an Administration to act on them are.
During the first Trump Administration, some of the President's supporters urged him to embrace the view that the Fourteenth Amendment does not require recognition of birthright citizenship to those born in the United States to parents who were not legal residents.
As I noted at the time, some of the most thorough and comprehensive arguments to the contrary could be found in the work of Judge James Ho, who wrote several op-eds and a short law review article on the question before becoming a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.
The Fourteenth Amendment provides, in relevant part, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States . . ." This provision unquestionably provides that those born on U.S. soil to American citizens and lawful permanent residents are American citizens at birth. The relevant legal question with regard to the Trump Administration Executive Order is what it means for someone to not be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States at birth. The conventional account is that it excludes the children of foreign diplomats and invading armies. The revisionist account maintains that it also excludes the children of those unlawfully present in the country, and perhaps the children of non-citizen parents lacking lawful permanent residence as well.
There may well be a range of non-originalist arguments for the revisionist position, but as a matter of original public meaning, these arguments do not work. Judge Ho explained why in a 2007 op-ed:
When a person is "subject to the jurisdiction" of a court of law, that person is required to obey the orders of that court. The meaning of the phrase is simple: One is "subject to the jurisdiction" of another whenever one is obliged to obey the laws of another. The test is obedience, not allegiance.
The "jurisdiction" requirement excludes only those who are not required to obey U.S. law. This concept, like much of early U.S. law, derives from English common law. Under common law, foreign diplomats and enemy soldiers are not legally obliged to obey our law, and thus their offspring are not entitled to citizenship at birth. The 14th Amendment merely codified this common law doctrine.
Members of the 39th Congress debated the wisdom of guaranteeing birthright citizenship — but no one disputed the amendment's meaning. Opponents conceded — indeed, warned — that it would grant citizenship to the children of those who "owe [the U.S.] no allegiance." Amendment supporters agreed that only members of Indian tribes, ambassadors, foreign ministers and others not "subject to our laws" would fall outside the amendment's reach.
The strongest counter-argument I have come across is that made by Peter Schuck and Rogers Smith (based on their 1985 book), but their argument does not vindicate the Trump Administration's position. Rather, their position is that Congress has "the power to regulate access to birthright citizenship for groups to whose presence or membership it did not consent" by defining what constitutes being "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States." And if one takes an expensive view of Congress's Section 5 power to implement and enforce the terms of the Fourteenth Amendment, this argument may have some force. But even if one accepts this argument (and I am unpersuaded), this would at most allow for Congress to enact legislation excluding some groups, such as those unlawfully present in the country, from conveying birthright citizenship. It would not provide adequate justification for unilateral action by the executive branch.
The above assumes that the question of birthright citizenship should be resolved by reference to the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. If one rejects this view, and believes either that courts should be particularly deferential to the political branches or should embrace evolving constitutional meanings in response to political and other developments (such as an election in which a prevailing candidate advocated a contrasting constitutional interpretation), one might well reach a different conclusion.
UPDATE: For those interested in more on this subject, I recommend this essay by Paul Gowder from The UnPopulist, this John Yoo essay from Civitas Outlook, and this Michael Ramsey post from the Originalism Blog focused on the Trump EO (which links to this longer article).
Note that the Trump Administration position seeks to get around the Supreme Court's Wong Kim Ark decision by arguing that it implicitly accepted the requirement of domicile for one to be "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States." Andrew Hyman makes a version of that argument here. I remain unpersuaded and would note that, even were this argument correct, it would do more to support potential legislation defining the contours of U.S. jurisdiction over non-citizens (and thus the eligibility of their children for birthright citizenship) than it would unilateral executive action.
One additional reason legislative action is necessary is that the traditional understanding of what it means for a non-citizen to not be subject to U.S. jurisdiction is reflected in how the U.S. treats foreign diplomats: They are not subject to U.S. law and thus can be expelled, but not prosecuted for crimes. Asserting that individuals not lawfully present in the country are subject to U.S. jurisdiction for some purposes but not others is not something that can simply be decreed.
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“The test is obedience, not allegiance”, even if obedience must be compelled. It’s a strong argument.
Wong Kim Ark muddies the waters a little on that argument:
People focus on Wong Kim Ark. But the whole dubious scheme of trying to engineer a new anti-immigrant definition of "jurisdiction" was also rejected in Plyler v. Doe in 1982:
Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory.
....
Appellants argue at the outset that undocumented aliens, because of their immigration status, are not "persons within the jurisdiction" of the State of Texas, and that they therefore have no right to the equal protection of Texas law. We reject this argument.
....
that debate clearly confirms the understanding that the phrase "within its jurisdiction" was intended in a broad sense to offer the guarantee of equal protection to all within a State's boundaries, and to all upon whom the State would impose the obligations of its laws. Indeed, it appears from those debates that Congress, by using the phrase "person within its jurisdiction," sought expressly to ensure that the equal protection of the laws was provided to the alien population.
....
Use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" thus does not detract from, but rather confirms, the understanding that the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory.
Now it's true this was about the equal protection clause rather than the citizenship clause. But it's a big stretch to say the very same Congress meant a different thing by the word "jurisdiction" in the very next sentence.
IANAL but I don't see how the "jurisdiction" nonsense can fly unless the SC reverses itself on the issue.
Certainly true, my only claim is that Wong Kim Ark contradicts the obedience vs allegiance claim.
It does not, in any way. It supports it. It says that anyone who is born here owes allegiance here and is subject to the jursdiction here.
"It says that anyone who is born here owes allegiance here and is subject to the jursdiction here."
1. Which, to me, is inconsistent with the distinction inherent in the claim that "The test is obedience, not allegiance." They're two sides of the same coin. YMMV.
2. If you were responding, you would say something like, "There's no such thing as jursdiction." But I will pass.
"and that they therefore have no right to the equal protection of Texas law."
This would seem to be a strange argument, since the text of the 14th amendment facially grants equal protection of the law to every warm body in Texas.
The problem here is that we're not discussing equal protection, properly speaking, or due process. We're discussing one of the "Privileges and immunities" of citizenship. And they DON'T apply to every warm body. Per the 14th amendment, they only apply to citizens.
I think Trump deserves to lose this case, but we should at least get the arguments right.
facially grants equal protection of the law to every warm body in Texas
No, only those people "within its jurisdiction." I mean, I agree with you, (practically) every warm body in Texas is within its jurisdiction, but that's the whole debate -- who is or isn't covered jurisdictionally.
We're discussing one of the "Privileges and immunities" of citizenship. And they DON'T apply to every warm body. Per the 14th amendment, they only apply to citizens.
What? Citizenship is one of the privileges and immunities of citizenship and only applies to citizens? What nonsense. You've fallen completely off your rocker!
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
You're "within a jurisdiction" just by being present in it. Every warm body gets equal protection. Only citizens get Privileges and Immunities. This matters a lot, because rights were supposed to have been incorporated by the P&I clause, and only citizens were supposed to get them. Non citizens just got the protection of the law against crimes, and a guarantee against arbitrary and lawless treatment.
The question is, where does having your kids get citizenship stand between these two? Is it more on the citizens only end, or more on the warm body end?
Nowhere. The child's citizenship isn't an exercise of a privilege or a right belonging to their parents.
Duck's point, which I thought was obvious, is that birthright citizenship is at the warm body end because it uses the same jurisdictional frame as equal protection.
The Court certainly should at least clarify some of the gross errors in Wong Kim Ark but they need not overrule the case because the case does NOT extend birthright citizenship to non-resident aliens. There is a requirement of legal domicile in the 14th amendment. The clause states: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
Tourists and illegals do not “reside” in any state. And Wong Kim Ark, limited to an issue framed clearly to address the agreed facts of the case, extends only to the children of parents who have a “permanent and legal domicile” in the US.
Who are you quoting in the following “permanent and legal domicile” in the US. Thus United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
https://perma.cc/C5PG-SQSP
I've used word search on permanent and can't find “permanent and legal domicile”. Heck, I can't find "legal domicile". I can find "permanent domicile", "permanent home", " permanent and indissoluble" and "permanent residence".
A mistake. I intended to use the language from Wong Kim Ark. As emphasized repeatedly by the court, the issue in Wong Kim Ark was limited to whether the child of parents who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States” was a citizen at birth. This language is actually stronger support for the argument that non-resident aliens are not entitled to birthright citizenship.
I seem to recall some DoJ guy during the Mueller thing getting up on his hind legs and holding a whole press conference about indicting a dozen Russkie intelligence officers who had never been closer to the United States than Minsk.
How does this jurisdiction thing work again ?
Heh, the VERY long arm of the law at work. On the other hand, how many of those indicted Russians have been brought to heel much less acknowledged the purported jurisdiction? So jurisdiction in fact?
This is hilarious. The author of the amendment clearly stated that it did not apply to the children of foreign parents in the USA. And that principle applied for at least the first century of the 14th Amendment's existence. Language parsing to reverse the intent of the amendment - to prevent southern states from denying former slaves their rights as citizens - is un-American and legally wrong, not to mention pernicious.
Innumerate and nonsense.
The amendment was added in 1868 and Wong Kim Ark - which was very explicitly about the child of foreign parents in the USA - was decided 1898.
On the author, if you're talking about Bingham, his text was amended to add the part about citizenship. It doesn't matter what he wanted because his text is not what got approved.
Yes what you said is innumerate and nonsense.
You want to make "subject to the jurisdiction" meaningless. Its not. Birthright citizenship is prohibited by the Constitution.
That's certainly a take that nobody who had graduated from high school could come up with.
Setting aside the notion that there is one "the author" of the amendment, or that such a single person would have any authority to say to whom it applied, nobody said that, "clearly" or otherwise.
A century is 100 years. The 14th amendment was ratified in 1868. 100 years from 1868 is 1968. Therefore "at least the first century" would include all years up to and including 1968. So 1898 is within the time period encompassed by "at least the first century." But Wong Kim Ark was decided in 1898, and it explicitly held that the child of foreign parents was a citizen. So, in other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
"Reversing the intent of the amendment" would mean declaring that former slaves weren't citizens. Nobody is saying that. So, in other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Also, while that was the motivating factor for enacting the 14th amendment (sort of — it was all blacks, not just former slaves), that was not "the intent" of it at all. That's why they spent time discussing who else it would apply to — Chinese, "gypsies," Indians, etc. If they had wanted it to apply only to blacks they could've worded it much more simply. But not one person in the debates said, "I thought this was about blacks; why are we discussing other people?"
No.
Insole.
Generator.
Carpet.
Lots of other one word responses, all as useful.
Or maybe your keyboard is dying and you're trying to not stress it.
What Adler calls the "revisionist" argument was probably the consensus view for the first 100 years or so after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. It was the view of the author of the Amendment; the view of Attorney General George Henry Williams, who had been in the Senate when the Amendment was drafted and debated, in an 1873 official opinion responding to a question from President Grant; and the view of both the majority and dissenters in the Slaughterhouse Cases (1873).
It is Adler's view, the "new consensus" view, as it were, that is the "revisionist" view. "Birthright citizenship" is the novel concept, a Google Books search indicating the first appearance of the phrase in 1982.
Why do people keep making this claim when it is not at all clear what the author thought.
Perhaps your keyboard is working again and you could type a few more explanatory and useful words.
I see you're back onto your "please waste a lot of time explaining stuff to me that I refuse to accept" kicks. Usually you do that on the Bumble account. Hopefully nobody's dumb enough to take you up on it.
Do we have another craven sock-puppet thing going on here?
I don't think so. SGT is a different style and brand; he doesn't sound like other posters here.
It's NOT what the author thought, it's what the author's words were understood to mean at the time of its ratification. Those things may not align completely.
I admit to being amused seeing Living Constitution type advocates lecturing others that the meaning of these words were clearly understood a hundred years go and still controlling today. If only that same principle were applied the equal protection clause and same-sex marriage.
NB: I think the EO is unlawful. Maaaaaybe Congress could implement its intent via legislation. I haven't given that much thought because I've had no reason until now. I'm not sure I agree with the resulting policy, but again haven't thought it through. I don't like that it would inevitably require more proof than just a state birth certificate to confirm citizenship...unless future birth certificates also confirmed parental citizenship somehow.
Maybe it was a consensus for 100 years among nativists who lost the debate over the text when the amendment was passed by Congress, and lost again in 1898 in Wong Kim Ark.
Lies. Old school lawyers and justices often used latin... relevant to this discussion is 'jus soli.' The common law concept of citizenship depending on where the person was born (subject to few exceptions not relevant here). That was the law in England when the colonies were formed. That was the law in America prior to the 14th amendment because America also followed the English common law. Every child of immigrant Irish, German, Italian, whatever... was American on birth and nobody ever disputed that. That is the backdrop and historical reality that you are ignoring.
Of course, the end of slavery was paramount in the public conscious at the time of the drafting of the amendment but its not entirely dispositive because the US was already honoring jus soli birthright citizenship of every single [non-slave] child born here from the beginning. If the 14th was meant to change that, it would have been more explicit.
I'm sorry, I should have dumbed it down further in deference to the commentariat here.
Yes, the law of England was that if you were born a subject of the Crown, you would always be a subject of the Crown, and to suggest you were not a subject of the Crown would be treasonous. It would seem axiomatic that, in declaring their independence, Americans rejected this.
When I use the phrase "birthright citizenship", I mean in the American context as generally understood today, that anyone born here, be it to a transient here on a temporary visa, or even someone with no legal authorization at all, is a citizen. THAT is a relatively new concept.
It is not a "new concept." It was in fact the law in England as well. Yes, upon independence Americans rejected the idea that you were bound forever. We did not reject the idea of jus soli. We embraced it.
I don't understand the focus on the 14th Amendment. Birthright citizenship is codified in 8 USC 1401.
What about the originalist interpretation of the INA?
All that does is copy the language of the Fourteenth Amendment, which does nothing to illuminate what the words "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean.
Congress certainly could, if it chose, extend U.S. citizenship to the children of those illegally present in the United States, or to everyone anywhere in the world, for that matter, but it has, arguably at least, not done so.
Sure, but what did the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean in the 1950s? If you wanted to look at the legislative history, surely they didn't say "let's copy the language of the amendment, whatever that happens to mean." If that phrase meant something else in the 1950s, that would be controlling.
Let's hope other judges are more thoughtful than Judge Ho and decline to import non relevant modern limited court specific jargon into the meaning of the 14th amendment to suit their own political biases and ignorance. And speaking of ignorance, the author of this piece is apparently unfamiliar with Senator Lyman Trumbull, the Slaughterhouse Cases,” Elk v. Wilkins, the actual holding of Wong Kim Ark, and years of historical practice.
LOL.
Somebody went and edited Wikipedia's 14th Amendment page to add this Elk v Wilkins (1873) nonsense and complete delete any reference to Wong Kim Ark (1898), which of course overrules the earlier case if they conflict. And the vandals boldfaced the foreign allegiance stuff, which course directly conflicts with Wong Kim Ark, whose parents were definitely Chinese citizens.
They're not going to fool the Supreme Court by changing the Wikipedia page. All they're going to do is lather the rubes. And you're covered with lather, Riva.
I don't think that the proponents of denying the children of illegal aliens and tourists citizenship have any problem with Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark's parents were lawfully present in the US, and had their legal residence here. By today's standards, they had green cards.
So the case against birthright citizenship is perfectly consistent with Ark, though I'll freely grant that it's not compelled by it.
Again, you're reading the precedent wrong.
The holding is broader than the fact pattern.
Quote the holding and say that again.
"Upon the facts agreed in this case, the American citizenship which Wong Kim Ark acquired by birth within the United States has not been lost or taken away by anything happening since his birth. "
Feed that into your neural net and smoke it.
For real?
Sarcastro: The holding is broader than the fact pattern.
Riva: Quote the holding...
Sarcastro: Upon the facts agreed in this case...
Followed by the statement of the law, which is the important bit.
Not very honest, Sarcastr0. What were the facts underlying the decision that you’re too dishonest to acknowledge? According to the Court, the question presented concerned the citizenship of the child of legally residing alien parents. As repeatedly emphasized by the Court, the parents had a “permanent domicile and residence in the United States.” And the Court held that a child born to such parents was a citizen at birth. The holding extends no further, as you note.
Smoke it or stuff it up your ass, I don’t really care.
The holding extends much further. It in no way even hints that the status of the parents had any bearing on the decision. As repeatedly emphasized by the court, all people born in the U.S. except those born to diplomats and invading armies were citizens by birth.
Um, what?
1. The quoted language from Elk v. Wilkins was added over 4 years ago. The page has been edited hundreds of times since then, with zero reversion or even discussion of that change that I can see. That's a really... generous definition of "vandalism."
2. The current pagecurrent version states, as it has for as far back as I cared to go (Sep. 2017): "The clause's meaning with regard to a child of immigrants was tested in United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)" and goes on to explain the case. Really not sure what you're talking about here.
Given the question becoming a hot current event, Wikipedia (if it ever was) is no longer a valid place to look for information about this issue.
We saw that recently with the Pine Tree flag being a secret fascist insurrection symbol.
Oh, don't get me wrong -- I don't consider Wikipedia to be an objective source of truth for much of anything even mildly controversial. I was just taking issue with OP's implication that a 4-year-stable edit was some sort of drive-by "vandalism" (as well as just flatly misstating that content about Wong Kim Ark was removed when it wasn't).
Sorry, I was agreeing with your point about vandalism. Didn't mean you were citing it approvingly. Thanks for the heads up about that. I had been meaning to look in out of morbid curiosity. This is certainly another issue where the Wiki moderators will want to lock down to protect themselves from fascists. When the problem is a bit more complicated than that. As the comments here document.
No worries at all, and I misconstrued your reply so we're even. 😁
The bot is malfunctioning again, just spewing talking points without knowledge or understanding. Every one of those things agrees with the author except some random dicta in the Slaughterhouse Cases. Elk is consistent with it. Trumbull is consistent with it. Wong King Ark is consistent with it. And 157 years of historical practice is consistent with it.
"Amendment supporters agreed that only members of Indian tribes, ambassadors, foreign ministers and others not "subject to our laws" would fall outside the amendment's reach."
And I said in the other thread, I'm not sure if anything prevents Congress from passing a law that says that children of illegal immigrants are not subject to US law on the day of their birth, although I would be opposed to such a law.
Congress could pass it. I don't think the courts would go for it. They don't like being toyed with, and they don't like the Constitution being toyed with. They'd just say that the child was effectively subject to our jurisdiction as a result of our jurisdiction over its parents, the imminence of our jurisdiction over it, and the blatant bad faith of the law.
"They don't like being toyed with, and they don't like the Constitution being toyed with. They'd just say that the child was effectively subject to our jurisdiction as a result of our jurisdiction over its parents, the imminence of our jurisdiction over it, and the blatant bad faith of the law."
This would be a better argument if citizenship for illegal aliens' children weren't ancillary to the purpose of the 14A.
But the test isn't "imminently subject to the jurisdiction", and there's no bad faith involved, Congress would be trying to work around arguably untended consequences of the amendment.
And Calvin's case established that the timeframe involved was birth.
ancillary to the purpose of the 14A.
Breyer was the last purposivism theorist on the Court.
Also, 'the' purpose seems a stretch.
OK, but that works against you. What's the argument that "subject to the jurisdiction" secretly means "subject to the imminent jurisdiction"?
And where's the precedent for the "toying with the constitution" argument?
The SC also doesn't like arguments that prove too much. (That's part of what sank the government in Citizens United.)
If Congress enacted your Diplomat for a Day Act, one of the opposing attorneys is going to raise the following question:
Could Congress amend the law to say "children of illegal aliens and children of citizens who commit a misdemeanor"? Or even "children of illegal aliens and children of black people"? If not, why not? What is your limiting principle?
No, the latter would violate the EPC.
(I edited while you were typing.)
How about "children of illegal aliens and children of citizens who commit a misdemeanor"?
Those are now both categories where the parent has committed a crime, and can be denied EP.
Why wouldn't they be able to? What's your limiting principle?
That's my point. I can't think of a limiting principle, and therefore the argument must have something wrong with it.
Let me go to the extreme example: Congress simply declares that *ALL* newborns have diplomatic immunity for their first day of life, and therefore that part of the 14th Amendment is entirely void.
We shouldn't interpret a constitutional amendment, passed to restrict the states and Congress, to not restrict them at all if they use One Simple Trick.
A trick that, if true, was available all along. But even some very recalcitrant post-Reconstruction Southern states weren't willing to use it.
Well, they simply declared that ALL American Indians had citizenship, and rendered that part of the 14th amendment void. So there's precedent.
"Let me go to the extreme example: Congress simply declares that *ALL* newborns have diplomatic immunity for their first day of life, and therefore that part of the 14th Amendment is entirely void."
Well, it's not void, they'd still have to black people and white people the same, which was the whole point.
Not everything that would be really stupid is unconstitutional.
"No, the latter would violate the EPC."
Uh, ancestry is a suspect classification for purposes of equal Protection, just as is race. Oyama v. California, 332 U.S. 633, 646 (1948); Hirabayashi v. United States, 320 U.S. 81, 100 (1943) ("Distinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry are by their very nature odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality.") See also, Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886).
Legal presence in the US isn't. And the law makes children of Diplomats and hostile occupying forces not subject to the jurisdiction of the US based on their ancestry, if you define it that way.
It’s hard for me to imagine a how your proposed differentiation is working here.
I would assume that diplomatic credentials apply, by agreement of the US and foreign countries, to the entire ambassadorial party, which includes the children born to an ambassador. So the diplomatic immunity applies at the moment of birth.
It does not apply because of “ancestry”, but to the newborn him/herself, based on a treaty-level agreement between nations.
I think you’re veering into “too cute to be taken seriously” territory.
Veering! That's the lane he started in!
Newborn diplomats-for-a-day. Nutter butter taco.
there's no bad faith involved, Congress would be trying to work around arguably untended consequences of the amendment.
When the only plausible purpose of a law is to undermine the Constitution, that law fails all levels of scrutiny.
If they can do that, then they could've also passed a law saying that blacks were not subject to US law, and therefore totally circumvented the 14th amendment.
That would violate the EPC.
But in any event, the point of the 14A wasn't to constrain Congress, it was to overturn the ruling in Dred Scott that black people inherently weren't citizens.
Trumpazoid: "I don't know what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means"
Legal eagle 1: "This is what "subject to the jurisdiction' means. and why we think so"
Trumpazoid: "I still don't know what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means"
Legal eagle 2: "This is what "subject to the jurisdiction' means. and here are some more reasons why we think so"
Trumpazoid: "I still don't know what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means"
Justice CocklecarrotL "This is what "subject to the jurisdiction' means. and here are some more reasons why we think so"
SRG2: "so, are illegal immigrants subject to US jurisdiction? Yes or no?"
Trumpazoid: "I can't answer that as we don't know what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means"
Well, dummy, that's the problem, isn't it? I have yet to see any even half-detailed description of what all parties to the amendment debate meant -- Senators, state legislators, newspaper editors, and letters to newspapers.
Everyone likes asserting YES or NO, or throwing out insults, or repeating "it's so obvious I don't have to explain it", or, like you right there, just repeating "subject to the jurisdiction" like it's magical incantations from Gandalf.
It isn't at all obvious, which ought to be obvious from the fact that so many people don't understand it, and those that claim they do understand it refuse to explain it to us lesser plebes.
Lawyers are the most arrogant and ignorant people on earth.
Intention ignorance doesn't imply ambiguity.
those that claim they do understand it refuse to explain it to us lesser plebes.
It has been explained to you repeatedly in this post alone. Any remaining ignorance is therefore intentional.
No.
Not only has it been explained to you more than once, but you refuse to accept the consequences of either answer to the question, does the US have jurisdiction over illegal immigrants?
I can understand your disagreeing with the standard and original definition, because you don't want the children of illegal immigrants to have citizenship.
But at the same time you want the US to be able to do things like punish illegal immigrants for crimes - which for any real and honest definition they would not be able to do if the illegals were not under the jurisdiction.
There's a kind of Schroedinger's Cat quality about your position.
Basically, you want to define jurisdiction in such a way that it applies to illegals inasmuch as they can be seized and punished - - which would be ultra vires if the US lacked jurisdiction - but does not apply the moment they have children. Does jurisdiction miraculously get suspended for those few minutes or hours of labour?
Normally the pattern is that some idea is presented that operates against Trump, whether it's a law or a factual matter, and roughly 5 seconds later, like a flock of birds wheeling in unison, the entire right-wing cult are instant experts having never encountered the idea until 5 seconds previously and have picked it up from which ever right-wing media clown has shat it out. (A good example was the red herring of the National Archives in the Mar a Lago documents case.) Here the pattern is the confident refusal to accept any definition because of the unacceptability of the consequences, thus leading to the defiant ignorance and stupidity you so proudly exhibit.
Sir Stephen, the Trump Admin is getting the answer to that question so no one needs to wonder anymore. The best thing that could happen is to get a test case and send it through the Courts. I would suggest the Ninth district. 😉
The Ninth district, is that something out of the Hunger Games?
Ooh, bad news, District 9 was shut down in 1983 after a lot of prawns escaped containment.
Indeed.
But that doesn't address my point that there is no such thing as partial jurisdiction - that either the US has jurisdiction over illegal immigrants in which case their US-born children are citizens, which you lot don't want, or it doesn't, in which case the US lacks authority to seize and prosecute them, which your lot don't want either. That the question hasn't been resolved to your satisfaction in he courts doesn't mean we can't consider the consequence of the only two possible outcomes.
If you expect those 1866 debates to squarely address illegal aliens, you're probably going to be disappointed. I can say that without even being a lawyer* or having done more than skimmed it myself, because:
- the concept of illegal alien really wasn't very widespread
- if the slam dunk evidence the anti-birthright crowd so badly wants was in there, we can be sure they'd have already saturated the media with the relevant quotes.
---
*Might still be arrogant and ignorant, though.
This works here too.
If the "obvious" interpretations espoused by boaf sidez were so obvious, boaf sidez would have saturated these comments with their own slant. All everyone really does is talk past each other and cherry pick quotes to back them up. No one has posted anything close to a summary of opinions both pro and con or addressed each other's assertions. Just repeating the same cherry picked points and the same old insults.
I wish all these smarty lawyers here would stop pounding the table and actually act like persuasion was the right tool.
No one has posted anything close to a summary of opinions both pro and con or addressed each other's assertions.
Yes. They have. Many, many times.
Intentional ignorance is very obvious. It's hard to be secretly intentionally ignorant, Stupid, but MAGA sure does like to try, from top to bottom.
As Windy City points out below, intentional ignorance is a form of bad faith.
OK, upthread I posted a lengthy quote from Pryly vs Doe. Of course you can disagree with the court's decision, but they very clearly state, and then reject, the state's (Texas) contention that illegal aliens are not within their jurisdiction.
As far as the precedents, I really do think it's a birthright slam dunk.
As far as original public meaning, maybe not so much. But since we've had 150+ years go by, I don't think new clarifying evidence is going to suddenly come to light. The documents are what they are.
Your only hope is a Roe or a Dobbs - where the court just says those older justices got it wrong and now we're correcting it. Barring something like a court packing or having a hitman take out five judges you aren't going to get such a ruling.
As far as original public meaning, maybe not so much.
ducksalad — Has any legal authority you know of ever even attempted to come to grips with a critique that different states have ratified particular Constitutional provisions for opposing reasons? For example, Virginia and Pennsylvania with regard to a right to keep and bear arms for personal self-defense.
It was actually nonexistent. There were no illegal aliens before 1882, when the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed. (That's right: even though "if you don't have borders you don't have a country" according to MAGA, we in fact were an 'open border' country before then, as far as immigration was concerned.)
So this is the thing about textualists. They don't resort to so called 'legislative history' when the language they are interpreting is capable of being understood based on the text itself. Among lawyers, the concept of who is subject to our jurisdiction is well settled. There are whole treatises on the subject of extending constitutional protections to non citizens based on the language used in various amendments, of which the 14th is chief among them. This includes equal protection, due process, etc...
Before aliens are removed [or rather the removal process itself] is an application of applying our jurisdiction on non citizens. The reason there is a process at all is because they are entitled to due process before the govt can forcible deport them. So pray tell... how can someone who has the right to a hearing in our courts because they have a recognized constitutional right to due process....NOT be subject to the jurisdiction of the united states? This is silly talk. Its non sensical and the people arguing against it are either arguing from a place of legitimate ignorance or bad faith. There is no in between here.
Modern leftist: Parrots argument he heard somewhere, but doesn't really grasp.
Rational person: Presents contradictory evidence.
Modern leftist: Repeats original argument, only louder, with personal insults.
Which contradictory evidence did you have in mind? Because so far in this thread I haven't seen any.
"When a person is "subject to the jurisdiction" of a court of law, that person is required to obey the orders of that court. The meaning of the phrase is simple: One is "subject to the jurisdiction" of another whenever one is obliged to obey the laws of another. The test is obedience, not allegiance.
The "jurisdiction" requirement excludes only those who are not required to obey U.S. law."
I don't understand this argument. Why does jurisdiction meaning one thing in the context of a court require the same meaning in the context of a country? It reads like Ho was about to elaborate on the analogy, but then decided not to analogize at all.
Is there any evidence that the commonly understood meaning in 1866 differed in the two cases?
Josh R — At all times Kleppe keeps himself safely distant from insight. Kleppe has been known to make up a remark from whole cloth, to say the opposite of what an opposing commenter has said. Kleppe has then put his made-up text in quotation marks, attributed it as a quotation from the commenter he intends to attack, and then blasted the targeted commenter for the stupidity of the comment Kleppe made up.
In fairness, insight and stupidity remain indistinguishable to Kleppe. It always remains equivocal whether Kleppe intends malice, or intends nothing.
I may as well throw in my own two-bit interpretation of all this, and maybe some of the lawyers can stop pounding and start explaining. But I have my doubts.
* "Subject to the jurisdiction" excludes only diplomats (because they are expelled rather than taken to court; witness the UN parking ticket scofflaws) and invaders (duh).
* Anyone claiming illegal immigrants are invaders in the old common law sense can just sod right off and pound that table somewhere else.
* Anyone claiming illegal immigrants aren't subject to the jurisdiction because they are expelled just like diplomats can also just sod right off and pound that table somewhere else, because "Illegal immigrant" was not a concept in 1867. I don't give a fig what it meant later, in 1873 or 1890 or 1920 or in 2025. It was not a concept when the 14th was written, debated, discussed, passed, and ratified.
My conclusion is that it's a right royal mess because the 14th is out of date due to later immigration laws, like the Chinese exclusion act of the 1880s and the general "reform" around WW I. Whether the Supreme Court wants to wade in and piss off everybody, or whether Congress wants to man up and stop delegating all their authority to courts and bureaucrats, I doubt. And all the blather here is a waste of time until the Supreme Court or Congress grows a spine. Then new blather can show up in new articles, and all the lawyers here will have new tables to pound.
So... why is it so hard for you to get from there to an honest answer to the question? Can you deduce from what we do know about the 14th and about illegal immigrants whether or not illegal immigrants fall under the jurisdiction of the United States?
And ... once again, talking right past what I wrote, asserting without explanation, pounding pounding pounding.
I didn't pound anything, I asked a question or two. Your non-answer just makes me think you're afraid to give an actual answer, probably because you won't like it.
You lawyers are idiots, not just for being idiots, but for thinking that non-lawyers believe any of your obfuscation. Oooh, you asked "a question or two" that wasn't pounding anything. Let me try that.
Are you so fucking stupid that you can't explain anything without obfuscating?
Are you so full of lawyerly quibbling that you have to say "one or two" when even the dimmest civilian can count to two?
According to you, I'm not pounding anything, I'm just asking a question or two.
Huh. That's quite the inferiority complex you've got going on!
I always forget this key component of MAGA. They're super-insecure, which completely explains their susceptibility to a daddy-figure cult leader making them feel loved and understood.
You dropped a new thread after someone above pointed you to Pryler vs Doe.
Why was that explanation insufficient?
*Plyler. (Someone spelled it wrong above in a different way, so I thought I'd just lay it out there.)
Didn't see it. I hope that's sufficient.
"Easy" ≠ "Sufficient"
Found it, 5 hours after I asked my question. It doesn't answer much at all.
All it does is equate two clauses which are actually different to anybody but a lawyer:
* subject to the jurisdiction thereof
* within the jurisdiction
No mention of diplomats or invading armies, which everyone probably agrees are within a jurisdiction but not subject to the jurisdiction.
Diplomats and armies are not "within the jurisdiction." If that's what they'd meant they'd of said "within the territory."
You raise an interesting argument on diplomats but - COUNTERPOINT - remember in the 80s when those South African diplomats were running drugs and using the historical principle of diplomatic immunity as cover and the guy was like “diplomatic immunity!” and the other guy was like “it was just revoked!” and the other guy shoots the first guy in the head?
Remember that?
One of the comments here prompts a question.
Suppose they try to deport some person who was admittedly born in the U. S. A., and subject to the jurisdiction thereof at the time of his birth - but he renounced his citizenship pursuant to 8 USC § 1481. For instance, suppose the person "mak[es] a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State."
But the person changes his mind and slips back into the U. S. Facing deportation, he argues that his renunciation of citizenship is contrary to the Fourteenth Amendment.
If the courts were writing on a clean slate, what should be the result?
He can say the renunciation is contrary to the 3rd Amd too for all I care. But “I claim it’s contrary to the 3rd Amd” is not a complete description of an argument.
How about you fill us in on your proposed argument, instead of asking others to read your mind and do the legal lifting for you?
You can't understand how he might argue that the literal terms of the Fourteenth Amendment make him a "birthright citizen" and supersede any purported renunciation?
You can probably anticipate this argument, or at least an intelligent commenter could - I was asking about the persuasiveness of such an argument.
You might say, for instance, that constitutional rights may be waived, and that this clause of the 14th amendment was intended to secure rights, not to codify the English law of indefeasible allegiance. You could point to the fact that around the same time as it was dealing with the 14th Amendment, Congress affirmed the right of expatriation, which it wouldn't have done if the 14th Amendment prevented renunciation of citizenship, etc. Or you could at least come up with cleverer insults.
I myself am not sure whether his hypothetical argument is correct, which is why I asked for others' opinions.
It's an interesting question.
IMO the maximal individual rights approach would be along these lines: citizenship comes with a lot of important rights, and a few duties which are very minor in peacetime.
The 14th amendment means you'll always be a citizen.
However, we have this thing called expatriation. Since it's not in the constitution it's just a statutory, reversible deal we offer: we don't enforce the duties, which are also just statutory so we can do that, and you don't claim the rights.
If you do show up and want un-expatriate, you're entitled to do that and as far as we're concerned you've always been a citizen. Which means any taxes you avoided are due, there's a small fine for that jury duty you got out of, and if while away you did something that would be illegal for a citizen (e.g. violate sanctions), you're subject to prosecution.
I can understand the first half of that argument, but not the second. Why would being a birthright citizen — which he is — supersede a subsequent renunciation? Nothing about the concept of birthright citizenship — which, I emphasize, predates the 14th amendment — ever prevented renunciation of citizenship in the U.S., and nothing in the 14th amendment purports to alter that. Nothing about the 14th amendment speaks one way or the other to what one can do later on.
"Nothing about the concept of birthright citizenship — which, I emphasize, predates the 14th amendment — ever prevented renunciation of citizenship in the U.S., and nothing in the 14th amendment purports to alter that."
Huh? It seems pretty simple: The 14A says, "All persons born...in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."
The hypothetical person above:
Person? Check.
Born in the United States? Check.
Subject to the jurisdiction thereof? Check.
Ergo Citizen. The 14th says nothing about renunciation. And note it says, "All persons..."
Under English common law, you could not renounce your citizenship, but the US tended to allow it, and contemporaneously with the 14A passed a law explicitly allowing the renunciation of citizenship.
But strangely, the literal text of the 14A is inconsistent with the concept.
I haven't researched this question but I suspect the strongest counterargument would be that birthright citizenship, like some other Constitutional rights, can be waived, and formal renunciation acts as such a waiver.
WKA talks about renunciation and English common law at length; doesn't find it material in the end.
Thanks for the clarification, yeh that’s what I assumed … but that’s not an excuse for asking vague questions either.
My personal take? If it were a computer and not the S.Ct., and the very first logical test applied is:
IF “14th Amd = true”, THEN return “is a citizen”
Sure. You can make that hyper literal argument. To what end?
Would Scalia make that argument? How about Thomas? Alito? There’s no way on dog’s green Earth that the result would be anything other that 9-0 against the would-be in-revoked at the S.Ct.
Next?
They used to say the same thing about Roe, now they don't.
Roe was always much more disputed than this provision because the text and other matters are somewhat less clear.
And, the view rejected here had 75 years or more additional general acceptance.
I always thought that the central complaint against Roe was that the right it embodied wasn't in the Constitution.
Birthright citizenship is more like the right to bear arms, as explicit as it gets!
Settled law. Just like climate science. Trump already has his SC votes counted. Middle of next year. Then onto the destructive Civil Rights Act.
Look. This is all bullshit.
The people raising this argument aren't concerned about anything but brown people becoming citizens. They're bigots, plain and simple.
Someone came up with a nonsense argument and they grabbed the reed and hoped that, with Trump's help, they could make it work as an argument that the Trumpist Supreme Court would buy.
All the fine legal argument is ridiculous, but I guess it gives Con law professors something to do. It's a pure ethno-nationalist argument and nothing more.
Exactly, there are no white people who are potentially affected by this executive order, it applies only to brown people.
You think any white babies are going to be denied citizenship? Rofl that's hysterical Margrave, good one!
I don't think the executive order will deny citizenship to anyone, because I expect the courts to strike it down.
In the highly unlikely event the courts uphold it, I would expect that one side or the other would find some "white" test cases specifically to respond to concerns such as yours.
Actually I think the anti-birthrighters dislike large swaths of the population, including whites who aren't culturally sound. I don't think they'd care if some children of illegal Canadians got deported; in fact, they'd convince themselves that they were proggies anyway, while simultaneously telling you the white deportations "prove" the anti-birthrighters are the truest and best non-racists.
I agree they might not care, it's just hard to imagine the mechanics. A white lady and her white husband get denied a birth certificate for their child on suspicion of being illegals because they say "aboot"? In what universe?
This order isn't going to require everyone to show their papers all the time. It's only going to require suspicious people to show their papers all the time. Suspicious means brown to these people.
Randal — Brown, with Hispanic accents.
In my lineage, my mother, a birthright citizen descended from a birthright citizen, grew up in a home where her original language was Czech. Her born-in-the-U.S.A father—a child of pre- Civil War immigrants of the Czech diaspora who ascended the Mississippi to settle the Upper Midwest—all his life spoke English with such a thick Eastern European accent that almost no stranger could understand him.
Nevertheless, my grandfather made himself well-read in U.S. public affairs. He did it on the basis of stuff he picked up by reading Czech language newspapers in New Prague, Minnesota.
My grandfather prospered and had children who also spoke with an accent almost incomprehensible to strangers. But it was no longer a Czech accent. It was Minnesota nice—which in my mother's case could be misleading.
In the 1980s my mother decided maybe it made sense to get with the times, and so enrolled in a feminist-led class to train women to be more self-assertive. After a few weeks, the class leader took my mother aside, saying, "I have never before had occasion to say this, but it might help you to dial back on the assertiveness." My mother assertively quite the class in a huff.
My mother's personal history probably had something to do with that. She had fled Minnesota—where anti-Catholic bigotry had made a deep and bitter impression—an impression oppressively at war with my grandmother's contribution to my mother's unease: a demand she content herself with the life of a Catholic wife and homemaker.
My mother's escape hatch from that trap opened when she replied to an advertisement she spotted not long prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. She departed Minnesota for DC, clutching a telegram she got offering her a job in a newly-formed government agency, the OSS. Its leader, Bill Donovan, may have cherished a notion that someone named Dorothy Kodadek, from New Prague, would fit in at an agency which intended to turn to U.S. advantage the bitter anti-German discontent among Poles and Czechs in Europe.
She did fit in, but probably more for energy, organizational talent, and willingness to meet incessant demands for long hours, than because of any exotic spy-related stuff. But that is mostly surmise by me. My mother remained so at odds with her ethnic history and background that she mentioned almost none of that personal history until her old age, and even then only sparingly.
For instance, I remained clueless nearly until she died that my mother had grown up speaking Czech. I had assumed from his accent that my grandfather was an immigrant, until my mother rummaged up his birth certificate, and in the process noticed and showed me the telegram that changed her life.
It was not really clear to me until then—because my mother had systematically avoided occasion to discuss any of it—that I am ethnically half-Czech myself, despite a last name, and minuscule 13th-generation-component of my genome, handed down from a Puritan forebear. Here in New England some heritage-minded new acquaintances notice that name and comment on it. I am obliged in honor of my mother's memory to call them ridiculous, but in disregard of her own custom, I try to do it obliquely, and politely.
For the record, birth certificates are issued by state governments and would not be affected by the order. It's things like SSNs that would be denied.
I think you'll find that to be not quite right once the agencies promulgate some rules. The agencies are going to need something to go by.
So are driver's licenses. Yet we have this (optional) thing called Real ID. Notice I said optional.
Point being is that I could imagine states adapting to this new reality, were it ever to become governing law. Not sure how exactly. Much like age verification on the internet (which I hate because it makes anonymity difficult and exposes sensitive personal information to those who otherwise should never see it), I think the end of absolute birthright citizenship would complicate things for most of us to document our citizenship. Coming full circle, not unlike the complication of some states allowing illegal aliens to have driver's licenses, devaluing it as an ID for the rest of us.
I guess I must be imagining the annoyance of having to endure I9 verification every time I've started a new job, and other government interactions. Even though I am not brown. Or should I say "White"?
Are you imagining that state/local police are somehow going to more frequently challenge people on the street, asking them not just for ID but proof of citizenship, were this EO to survive a challenge? Did the EO also purport to modify that standard for probable cause for state law enforcement? This would seem to be a present moment issue, not something in the far future. Quite possibly happening as I write.
Proving one's citizenship, and the number of people who may not qualify for citizenship in the future, are two very different things.
This concern was alluded to by the 1898 ruling that rejected the "revisionist view." It noted that the reasoning would call into question the birthright citizenship of European whites.
The counter, of course, is that there is discretion to be selective about the whole thing. But, even in the days of Plessy v. Ferguson, the Supreme Court rejected that assumption.
The approach here -- like poll taxes -- will bring in some "non-garbage" people. Traditionally, there have been ways to temper the blow by selective application. A few will fall between the cracks in the long run, even then, but I'm sure they will understand the eggs broke to make an omelet principle.
The above assumes that the question of birthright citizenship should be resolved by reference to the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.
I think a simple citation to the text would settle things. Or some other form of originalism. OPM (various forms) is not the only way to determine this "revisionism" (which in this form is in some ways even more revisionist than usual) is wrong.
courts should be particularly deferential to the political branches
As applied, it isn't even "political branches" since Congress did not pass a new law that limited the reach of the amendment compared to history, text, precedent, and other interpretative approaches firmly show is the case. It is the act of the executive alone, in applying an amendment that specifically gives Congress special power to enforce it.
or should embrace evolving constitutional meanings in response to political and other developments (such as an election in which a prevailing candidate advocated a contrasting constitutional interpretation), one might well reach a different conclusion.
Constitutional interpretation will sometimes factor in "political and other developments" to some extent. For instance, prudential arguments sometimes arise. A reasonable ground to change gears, however, is not present here either.
The "prevailing candidate" approach also is far from sound in this context as compared to at best the "prevailing congressional" control. The soundest approach there is not a close election where there is no evidence there is a clear understanding that things changed. As compared to, for instance, the understanding of the reach of the Commerce Clause in 1936. To the degree that matters. That isn't present here either. It would matter more where the executive has a more complete control such as something like recognition of a nation or some such area.
And most importantly of all, the Constitution's meaning can only adapt and change in a progressive direction, never in a regressive direction.
Constitutionalizing same-sex marriage represents progressive change, but denying citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants represents regression. Therefore, the Constitution may change to support SSM but not to tighten access to citizenship.
Warning: Keep strawman arguments away from open flames.
You're the only one in danger of catching fire here. You can't hide the one (left) way ratchet of your hypocrisy.
No hypocrisy is shown.
For instance, for the sake of argument, I cited the Commerce Clause interpretation being affected by the 1936 election.
I didn't say that as a tie-breaker of sorts that could only happen in one direction. For instance, to the extent current gun rights jurisprudence is "conservative," popular support including on the federal level (a right to RKBA was granted in one or more pieces of legislation) also is relevant.
The original reply stated a stereotypical view of so-called "left ways" that was not warranted by my comment.
Nice to see others picking up on what I noticed too! We're all original public meaning originalists now...sometimes! The sacred meaning of the Constitution must be preserved at all costs...as long as I agree with that meaning!
Full disclosure: I do think this EO is unlawful.
How exactly does this follow from what I said?
For starters, I do think you are correct that an EO is probably not gonna fly here. Needs Congress.
But I certainly think this is wrong:
"This provision unquestionably provides that those born on U.S. soil to American citizens and lawful permanent residents are American citizens at birth"
If, for no other reason, several scholars are in fact questioning it makes it de facto incorrect. This debate isn't new either, and has been going on for decades and was a hot item that popped up in the 80's during Regan's Amnesty-Clemency-Pardons.
Let me try and tackle a counter...
The problem is ""subject to the jurisdiction" has nothing to do with soil, rather is is one of citizenship (or other similar status). As a US citizen, and that fact does not change regardless of if you are in the US or not. Even more important, you are also subject to the jurisdiction of the United States regardless of you location.
This is why, if you get picked up in China for making Pooh jokes, arrested in Russia for packing CBC oil, detained in Saudi for forgetting to erase the porn on your phone, or get kidnapped by a bunch of Jew hating asshole because you happened to be in Gaza on the wrong day, it isn't the French embassy that is called. It isn't the Brazilian State Dept. who tries to make sure you get a fair shake. It is the US embassy and State Dept. Why? Because you are a US citizen and under the jurisdiction of the US, even though you are not on US soil or in any sort of US territory.
This works in the negative too. Up until fairly recently, as a US citizen you were prohibited from visiting Cuban. You could easilyt do it by flying to Cancun and taking a quick charter hop over, but is was a prosecutable offence by the State Dept when you back to the US if you were caught. You are currently prohibited from joining the Taliban. You cannot do certain types of business with several countries or groups terrorists. Even when you are not on US soil, you are still subject to those specific laws by virtue of being a US citizen and being under the jurisdiction of the United States.
So, by that reading, when you drop the kid doesn't matter to the 14th. Who the parents are and which counties have jurisdiction over them is what is important.
Side hypothetical thought experiment: Pre-EU, a British chick goes to university in Paris, meets a German, gets knocked up, and pops out a baby in Paris. England would have an interest in the child by virtue of the mother being a Brit. Germany would have an interest in the child by virtue of the dad being German. Why the hell would France have an interest in the child, especially considering that neither of the parents are slated to stay in that county... they have no dog in that hunt. Jus soli makes no since in the modern world of mass rapid transportation and common cheap travel.
You made a policy argument. Feel free to change the policy via Constitutional Amendment.
You are right, I did make a policy argument, because I think the current policy is stupid and I probably should have done that separately.
But I also made an interpretation of the 14th argument, because I think the interpretation that is being peddled around here by all the pro-open boarder folks is very wrong.
To summarize: and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, in the context used in the 14th, does not refer to being within the territory; rather, it is referring to the US extent of authority over US citizens.
So... a child born in US territory to two foreign parents, who are under the jurisdiction of other countess by way of citizenship in those countries, does not automatically qualify to be a US citizen by virtue of the 14th's text.
Forgot something: This whole thing is a "therein" being used instead of text's actual term "thereof" issue.
Thereof: is used to specify the relationship between two entities (e.g. the US and a US citizen)
Therein: is used to indicate location (e.g. within the US's territory).
Jus soli makes no sense in the modern world of mass rapid transportation and common cheap travel
Jus sanguinis makes little sense in the modern world where miscegenation laws are long gone and cultural norms against marrying outside your ethnic group have disappeared (except among some ethnoreligious sects, and those often dismiss citizenship as an unimportant secular thing.)
The problem is that this is not correct.
Yeah, no. It's true that the State Department may try to work something out on your behalf with Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia, but the fact that they need to do so is because you were subject to the jurisdiction of Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia at the time, rather than the U.S. That's how those countries were able to arrest you. That it's not illegal under U.S. law to make Pooh jokes, carry CBC oil, or have porn on your phone is irrelevant, because you were not under U.S. jurisdiction.
I used the Pooh jokes, CBC, and porn because those are things that have been in the news over the past few years, not because of there legality in the US. You are right that that is not relevant, other than the State Dept. is more likely to attempt to intervene in situations where a US citizen is being charged for something the US generally doesn't see as a crime, that the punishment is seen to be unconscionable, or when it is thought to be a situation where they are being railroaded by a kangaroo court. Any crime could have sufficed though.
The point that got missed; however, is that the 14th does not specify within the jurisdiction of US territory, just jurisdiction. As a US citizen you are under the "US extent of authority" (i.e. jurisdiction) no matter where you are. By virtue of being a US citizen, you are subject to all manner of US federal laws even while abroad. We don't hear more of that because most people, most of the time don't do a lot of things that violate federal law (US states have no foreign reach), and even fewer do things that get on the federal government's radar (I used not traveling to Cuba and joining the a terror group (i.e. the American Taliban), as examples because they things that have been in the nation news enough that most people have heard of them).
Those are the same thing, with the few exceptions previously noted. (Diplomats, invading armies, and — at one time — Indians).
I won't be surprised if SCOTUS eventually rules that illegal immigrants evading enforcement of U.S. law are fully subject to U.S. jurisdiction, but until then am quite disturbed by district court judge threatening lawyers about ethics violations for making arguments on one side of that issue.
The Judge's remarks and implied threats were intemperate.
One point I have not seen discussed in the birthright citizenship litigation is the discussion of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), at footnote 10 of Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), wherein SCOTUS held that States cannot deny to illegal aliens the free public education they provide to citizens and legally documented aliens:
457 U.S. at 212, n.10. [Italics in original.]
NG, very helpful. So it is all about geographic location.
Right. The Court in Plyler elaborated:
457 U.S. at 215.
Sleight of hand. I would have expected better from a law professor.To start off your argument by labeling the other side's argument as "revisionist" without explanation or evidence is disingenuous. You may fool students but anyone who carefully combs your argument notices the leaps you simply ask the reader to take as true.
"One additional reason legislative action is necessary is that the traditional understanding of what it means for a non-citizen to not be subject to U.S. jurisdiction is reflected in how the U.S. treats foreign diplomats: They are not subject to U.S. law and thus can be expelled, but not prosecuted for crimes. "
Historically there were three basic exceptions to birthright citizenship:
1. Diplomats
2. Soldiers of somebody else's military
3. Indians 'not taxed'. (This last was explicit.)
Indians 'not taxed' were recognized to be citizens of an Indian tribe, (NOT of the US!) which tribes were legally independent sovereigns that just happened to be within US borders. Notably, "Indians not taxed" did NOT escape enforcement of the law if they committed a crime outside the reservation, in the way diplomatic personnel did. And yet, neither were they counted for purposes of apportionment. And under Elk v. Wilkins their children didn't get birthright citizenship.
Thus establishing that there's some middle ground, constitutionally, between being "subject to the jurisdiction of" and being a diplomat.
The Trump administration is actually depending on this exact argument. They are arguing that illegal immigrants and tourists have the same legal status that citizens of the Indian tribes had prior to the Indian Naturalization Act.
John Elk was born on a reservation. There was no claim that he was "subject to the jurisdiction" at birth.
Where are the “Living Constitutionalists” when you need them?
Living Constitutionalists take the position that the constitution should be interpreted based upon current consensus.
Although Trump’s EO is not likely to pass an originalist constitutional challenge, there does seem to be a broad consensus in the US that birthright citizenship should not be extended to children of illegal immigrants.
So far, I’ve seen no action on this from the “Living Constitutionalists”
They're suddenly all original public meaning originalists...they've all run off to join the Federalist Society and get their membership cards.
there does seem to be a broad consensus in the US that birthright citizenship should not be extended to children of illegal immigrants.
Really? Let me see...
[
edit
] Noap!This issue is far more simple than people make it out to be. It is agreed by all that when 14A was adopted, it applied to all immigrants. It had to, because there was not such thing as an illegal alien back then. Thus if it applied to all immigrants then, it applies to all immigrants now.
^^^This.
Imagine the howling and gnashing of teeth at “muzzle loading ‘arms’ existed in 1790 but breach loading ‘arms’ didn’t, so an Executive Order can redefine ’arms’ so that the 2nd Amd only applies to the former”.
Molly, you're right, but you're missing the flip side of this argument. They're not arguing that it applies differently to some immigrants now; their ultimate position is that it doesn't apply to any immigrants.
Almost, they are saying it applies to any immigrant that does not have permanent residency or citizenship.
Still absurd.
Well, I see DN's point - what's the limiting principle in the 14th Amd that would prevent Trump or another president from extending the denial of birthright citizenship to lawful permanent residents (aka green card holders) if the current EO is upheld?
After all, other flavors of long-term legally-domiciled parents are excluded, most notably H1B visa holders - some of whom stay for many years to decades. Sort of like Wong Kim Ark's parents.
At the most extreme rewrite of the 14th Amd., green card holders are still citizens of another country right up until the point where they take the US citizenship oath and affirmatively renounce all other allegiance. So under the revisionist "not ackshually subject to jurisdiction" view, in the modern era where there are multiple flavors of "legally present in the US", exactly where would the line be? And what's the constitutional rationale to get there?
No; that's just the first step. But since there's no distinction between immigrants here legally or illegally, temporarily or permanently, in terms of the constitutional issue — whether they're "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. — the next step is to say that any child of any immigrant is not entitled to citizenship.
After all, Trump already blew past the "oh, we're just talking about illegals" line.
From comments made in the Congressional minutes that was the viewpoint of at least one senator.
I don’t have time to put full quotes here but the Supreme Court in Ark really did a disservice to everyone by spending only two sentences to say the discussion about the 14th amendment was to enshrine “jus soli” in the Constitution.
I think the problem here is that looking at the strength of precedent may be misplaced. One also has to look at the many times the court has overturned precedent in response to changes of opinion in the parts of society judges have tended to look to for affirmation. Its sheer habit of doing this tends to suggest that given enough pressure, any body of precedent can be overturned.
The court has ignored all of plain text, framer intent, and well-established precedent many times, on matters large and small . One need not look far. Consider for example the legal tender cases, interstate commerce, the Court’s flipping back and forth on the Confrontation Clause, and many, many more. Recently the Court has held that states’ 21st Amendment powers are subject to the Commerce Clause restraints, which the 21st Amendment’sframers would have sworn was an outcome that the compromise that returned alcohol regulation over to the states was specifically intended to prevent. Same with both state presidential appointment powers and elector rights. Many more.
Why not this? If “gold and silver coin” means whatever the federal government wants it to mean, why not birthright citizenship?
Although I'm not a legal realist, I like this comment, as we've never really been a judicial supremacist country, not even in the late 20th century. The court is very sensitive to public opinion, presidents of both parties are departmentalists, Congress has ignored INS v Chada 200 times, SCOTUS regularly "counts states"... etc.
Since it seems pretty clear that the battle lines are drawn, people are entrenched, and it's more insults that reasonable arguments at this point, I have a different tangent I invite some thoughts on.
Prof Alder writes:
I think it's likely that in view of the Trump EO, Congress will be much less motivated to tackle this thorny issue than they would absent the EO. And the EO will likely take well over 2 years before there's a definitive ruling from the S.Ct. At which point the GOP may lose at least one of the House or Senate. And in 4 short years and absent legislation, the EO could be subject to reversal.
In sum, it probably would be good for Trump to also work to pass parallel legislation if the EO wants to effect a permanent change in policy. (I personally doubt he'll try very hard, if at all. He's closed this deal, time to claim credit and go golfing.)
So does this EO thus end up placing "own the libz" posturing (as seen right here on the VC!) over effective coordination with the Legislature in order to get to a more defensible and permanent solution?
There is no chance legislation that denies birthright citizenship to temporary visa holders survives a Senate filibuster, and such a bill might not even pass the House. The former remains likely the case if it were restricted to those unlawfully present.
Also Congress can't pass a law to change the Constitution.
I personally agree. I personally also think there's no textualist/originalist interpretation that makes the EO viable.
But, moving beyond those issues to the quoted portion of Alder's OP ...
If the best (though still dubious per the OP! yes already!) argument is that there is some Congressional power per the cited articles .... does Trump "own the libz" in the short term but shoot himself in the foot in the long term by adopting a "go it alone with an EO" strategy?
Trump's own-the-libs strategy has always prevented him from achieving anything durable. Exhibit A: The Wall Exhibit B: Health Care The only significant policy shift remotely attributable to Trump is taxes / tariffs.
That was true last time. This time they are far more prepared. They had the Project 2025 roadmap in place, and they had many EOs already to go on day one. They are going to be far more effective at being destructive this time around.
Yet he continues to make the same mistakes.
Not sure what this means, even setting aside the weirdness of talking about what he "continues" to do after only 5 days. While he makes tons of mistakes in the sense that everything he does is stupid, he has learned how to accomplish what he wants to accomplish.
Quite the opposite, they were far far more prepared this time.
They were far more prepared... to undertake a series of performative, futile gestures.
Trump has always been about Trump.
Not America, not conservativism, not the pro-life movement, not populism, not isolationism, not even "Trumpism", whatever that means. He's a policy nihilist whose goal is to benefit himself.
Congress is supposed to have a level of primacy in interpreting the constitution. And the deference owed by a court to a statute is much greater than that owed to mere officers, even the president.