The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Birthright Citizenship Executive Order
Much has been written about President Trump's executive order concerning birthright citizenship. I'll add a few thoughts here.
First, this order did not tie the denial of birthright citizenship to the invasion order. Rather, it is far broader. A child born to any mother who is not lawfully present, or a mother who only lawfully present for a temporary period, would not be a birthright citizen. This position can be refined in the inevitable litigation.
Second, the order only applies prospectively to children born 30 days after the issuance of the order. But if this order is successful, there is nothing that would prevent this policy from being enforced retroactively. Trump would not have to denaturalize people. It would be sufficient to deny them documentation of citizenship.
Third, the order simply withholds the issuance of certain identity documents:
It is the policy of the United States that no department or agency of the United States government shall issue documents recognizing United States citizenship, or accept documents issued by State, local, or other governments or authorities purporting to recognize United States citizenship . . . .
This order brings to mind Zivotofsky v. Kerry (2015). Justice Thomas's concurrence found that the President has a "residual foreign affairs power" to regulate passports, but the President has no such power over "consular reports of birth abroad." Perhaps one of the most significant exercises of this power was when the Lincoln Administration issued passports to Black Americans, notwithstanding that Dred Scott ruled that such people could never become citizens. Remember, Lincoln did not defy Dred Scott; he simply limited that ruling to the named parties. If Thomas is right, then Congress has no power, whatsoever, over passports. Would Trump argue that the President's residual foreign affairs power over passports gives him any special authority to interpret Section 1 of the 14th Amendment? There may be something more here. I need to think about it some more.
By contrast, in Zivotofsky, Justice Scalia's dissent rejected Thomas's analysis.
The concurrence's stingy interpretation of the enumerated powers forgets that the Constitution does not "partake of the prolixity of a legal code," that "only its great outlines [are] marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects [left to] be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves." McCulloch, 4 Wheat., at 407. It forgets, in other words, "that it is a constitution we are expounding." Ibid.
This is one of the rare cases where Scalia and Thomas disagree, and vigorously so, on an originalist question.
The ACLU challenged this birthright citizenship order in New Hampshire. And two dozen blue states, led by New Jersey, filed suit in Massachusetts. I guess it was determined the First Circuit would have jurisdiction over this claim. That makes sense, since the First Circuit has ruled over the status of Puerto Rico, which is adjacent to the insular cases. There is probably some favorable precedent there.
I watched as Trump signed this order. He did not seem particularly confident that he would win this case, as opposed to some of his other actions. The Court will almost certainly rule against Trump. But in the process, does John Roberts tell us what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" actually means? Is it just the children of diplomats who are excluded? Who else is not covered? You can be sure Trump will respond accordingly. Indeed, maybe that is the point of drawing the categories so broadly. Any wiggle room that the Court leaves will be wiggled.
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You will notice how Josh is too much of a fucking coward to come right out and say that the order is unconstitutional on its face.
That remains to be seen = unconstitutional
If everything is up in the air until you get a recent test at the Supreme Court, then do you really have a constitution?
Maybe you just have a constitution that's mostly being ignored.
Area man….
We have an area Court, so don't expect that to sting.
Yes.
That's a pre Magna Carta take on law.
We're a lot less into lawlessness these days. Trump is not a king, quit treating him like one.
Who is treating him like a King? Maybe you haven't been on Bluesky, lately. 😉
Something can be unconstitutional on its face but a compliant assemblage of catamites on the SC might nonetheless decide otherwise.
You mean like the New Deal travesties? The 1798 Sedition Act which John Adams used to jail newspaper reporters? Blanket pre-emptive pardons which list no crimes or even hints of crimes?
Yeah, all depends on whose ox is being gored. I have no control over government, so Trump is doing the best that I can hope for in goring the other oxen for a while. In four years, it will be someone else's turn to gore somebody else's oxen.
"Whatabout!"
At least you concede the correctness of my substantive point.
What exactly is unconstitutional? Wong Kim Ark would only require birthright citizenship be accorded to the offspring of legally domiciled, permanent residents. While the opinion is not a model of clarity, that much is clear. The scope of the case has overstated for so long people reflexively believe the misinterpretations rather than actually reading the case.
that much is clear!
The Court repeatedly emphasized legal domicile as a requisite to being “subject to the jurisdiction of the US within the scope of the 14th amendment and Wong Kim Ark’s parents were legal residents permanently domiciled in the US. Now of course, there will be more trollish BS but I don’t expect an adult response anyway.
IOW you can't cite Wong Kim Ark for the proposition that everyone aside from diplomats on US soil are subject to US jurisdiction. But that is an entirely different thing from noting that on the face of the amendment (and, as we've seen, original intent) illegal immigrants are subject to US jurisdiction.
Do you think that illegal immigrants on US soil are subject to US jurisdiction?
The problem is that Riva is attempting to mislead you. The court did mention domicile, yes. Not "legal domicile," but it did mention domicile. Several times. But it did not make that a "requisite." Any more than it made being Chinese a "requisite" simply by mentioning that fact several times. It did not qualify its holding in any such way. You can indeed cite WKA for the proposition that everyone aside from diplomats, invading armies, and Indians are subject to US jurisdiction. Riva is trying to proffer the dissent as if it were the holding.
Under Wong Kim Ark, SRG2, if you're not a legal, permanent resident, then your children are not natural born citizens. Illegals are of course subject to the law, that's why their called illegal. But they are not "subject to the jursidiction" of the US under the 14th amendent because they are not legally domiciled here.
Riva is dumb or lying. Wong Kim Ark said the opposite of what Riva claims. The court said anyone born on US soil is a citizen unless they are:
1) children of diplomats
2) born in occupied territory held by a hostile power
3) born on an Indian reservation as a member of a tribe
Wong Kim Ark was none of those things and hence was a citizen. So are children of illegals.
He was a citizen because his parents were legal residents, permanently domiciled in the US when he was born. You might want to try reading the actual case and not a summary someone or some AI thing wrote.
Conspicuously missing from the WKA decision: the word "because."
EDIT: Yes, I know the word "because" is found several times in there. But no "because his parents were" anything.
Riva you fuckwit, as a matter of logic, if A implies B, it does not follow that only A implies B.
I hope you feel better after your little tantrum SRG2. Maybe now you can accept the legal reality that Wong Kim Ark does not hold that birth alone is sufficient to confer citizenship. That is a gross misinterpretation that has prevailed for far too long.
Actually I think maybe you do understand, that’s why you (and the other trolls) are having tantrums, like toddlers holding their breath hoping to get their way.
No, you're just a moron supporting the deliberate violation of the Constitution.
It's been settled law for over 150 years.
Your self-identification as an enemy of America is graciously noted, however.
Trump could order the Democratic party banned as a terrorist group and you and Blackman would be "hmm, this will be tricky we'll have to see what the court says on the constitutionality".
At a certain point obviously unconstitutional things are unconstitutional. If the SCOTUS does the inexplicable then its deviated from the constitution.
Were you (and Blackman) really this hesitant to call something unconstitutional when declaring aspects of the ACA to be unconstitutional?
I might just say, 'Ok' = Trump could order the Democratic party banned as a terrorist group,,,
(just kidding...I think, heh)
He offers an opinion on constitutionality and you bash him. He lays out the legal questions for discussion and withholds his opinion and you bash him. Your inconsistency makes your opinion of his legal scholarship ... I'll be generous and call it questionable.
Personally, I prefer this approach. I don't need someone (cough, Prof Somin, cough) ranting conclusory opinions about constitutionality when I can read the issues and work that out for myself.
Most of his questions are just plan silly. Does having a "residual foreign affairs role" give him power to interpret the 14th amendment? An amendment that has nothing to do with foreign affairs. Will the Supreme Court finally tell us what subject the the jurisdiction actually means? Something the Supreme Court has already told us multiple times for the last 127 years. These aren't serious questions.
Has the Court told us multiple times for the last 127 years what the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" meant in 1866 in the context of the 1866 Civil Rights Act and the 14th Amendment? Cite to a few of those decisions.
How many times do you need to be told something by an authority?
The President has no authority to unilaterally interpret the meaning of a constitutional provision at all, let alone in contravention of a settled judicial precedent of the Supreme Court.
Lawsuits challenging President Trump's usurpation have been filed on behalf of immigrant advocacy groups in the District of New Hampshire, https://assets.aclu.org/live/uploads/2025/01/0176.pdf , and on behalf of several states, the District of Columbia and the City and County of San Francisco in the District of Massachusetts. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25499992/dem-lawsuit-on-birthright-citizenship.pdf
I expect that we will see preliminary injunctions issued in relatively short order.
Here are the dockets for two cases:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69561497/state-of-new-jersey-v-trump/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69560579/doe-v-trump-president-of-the-united-states/
The motion for a preliminary injunction has already been filed in the case with state plaintiffs. I think some plaintiff, somewhere will find a friendly judge willing to grant a nationwide injunction.
I am doubtful that any party has standing yet. Once standing is clear, e.g. if Doe from the second case applies for a Social Security Number for her child and is turned down, the District Court will be obliged to grant relief.
Doe, due in March, is a lawful resident with temporary protected status. The father of the child is not. It is not clear if he is here illegally, absent, or if he is alive at all, and I don't think it matters.
I agree with your point, but I would say all government actors, including the President, have the responsibility to interpret constitutional provisions, and act accordingly. As you say, no government actors have the authority to contravene judicial decisions. SCOTUS is right, because they are final.
It's worth checking out the link to Zivotofsky to see that Blackman's summary of what Thomas said misleads badly by omission, and that Blackman's flat wrong about Thomas' interpretation, even if accepted by the whole court, giving Trump any special authority to interpret Section 1.
It's true that Thomas says the executive rather than Congress has authority over passports. But the reason Thomas mentioned the consular reports of birth was to specifically point out that Congress rather than the executive has authority over naturalization, because "because those documents do not fall within the President’s foreign affairs authority but do fall within Congress’ enumerated powers over naturalization".
So Thomas's opinion (to the extent a concurrence/dissent counts at all) cuts against giving Trump any wiggle room on the citizenship issue. Thomas is effectively saying that Trump can maybe deny the passport but he can't, by doing that, deny the citizenship. The 14th Amendment is not about passports or foreign affairs, it's about citizenship.
Josh frequently misrepresents court rulings when he finds in convenient.
Update to my previous comment (edit/reply are broken tonight).
Thomas actually says later in his opinion that "I do not argue that the President possesses primary power over passports." So Blackman's converting that to "Congress has no power, whatsoever, over passports" seems very inaccurate.
I watched as Trump signed this order. He did not seem particularly confident that he would win this case
LOOOL. As if Trump, while signing an executive order, is thinking about things like litigation risks.
I was wondering about that part of the post also. What made Prof. Blackman conclude "...He did not seem particularly confident?" Did President Trump rub his chin and squint off into the distance?
Video of Trump signing the EO.
Yes, he did seem a bit diffident. Although maybe he was just tired at that point. So many EOs to sign, must have been like buying a house. 😉
I don't think they intend this one to win. Note that it treats cases where the father is a citizen/legal immigrant differently than cases where it's the mother; While the ERA didn't get ratified, the courts have mostly rendered that state refusal moot by reinterpreting the 14th amendment to do the ERA's work.
I think this particular EO is Court bait meant to tee up a campaign for a birthright citizenship amendment.
Seriously, though, whether that's the intent or not, it is hilariously doomed for any other purpose. This one has about as close to zero chance of being upheld as these things get.
You seem pretty cool with that.
I think the birthright citizenship clause is fairly clear, like a lot of clauses in the Constitution.
While I'm perfectly capable of gaming out approaches to circumventing it that the Supreme court might decide to embrace, and pointing out that the Court accepting bullshit arguments to evade the clear meaning of the Constitution is apparently routine in our legal system, that doesn't mean I FAVOR circumventing it.
I think it should be amended, and until amended, obeyed as written.
As I said to somebody else this morning, I expect to be criticizing a lot of stuff Trump does over the next 4 years. Just mostly not the stuff YOU criticize.
I think the point was that up until two days ago you frequently went apoplectic at the idea that the President might do something he knows is unconstitutional.
You get very mad at political stunts that are against the constitution.
Except this time.
Your criticism is pro forma. No heat to it, swift refuge to speculation about tactics and of course cynicism.
When the dickens did you become any kind of impartial expert on knowing what other people think?
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/21/president-trump-comments-on-president-bidens-pardons-an-unbelievable-precedent/?comments=true#comment-10878061
One difference, you dumb fuck, is that this criticism is of what Brett is actually doing right now, as opposed to claiming what his future actions will be.
Right below your linked comment:
"Parasocial is about the one-sided sense of mutual awareness that occurs when someone consumes media about someone they don't know in person and who doesn't know them."
Yup, you guys know nothing but nothing. Keep on telling the world you have no arguments, only insults.
The "guys who know nothing but nothing" just demonstrated that you were blatantly ignorant and wrong in your comparison.
Your response was an empty insult, complaining about empty insults.
I'll go ahead and chalk that up as a 'Loss' on your behalf. You're welcome.
You can't expect me to get as mad about constitutional violations to advance policies I'd favor if they weren't regrettably unconstitutional, as I do about constitutional violations aiming at policies I think are horrible. The emotional reaction just isn't going to be there.
[Unconstitutional] + [bad policy] ≠ [unconstitutional] + [otherwise would be good policy].
Be happy that my liking the policy doesn't warp my judgment as to what the Constitution says. Trump is doing the wrong thing here. Just don't expect me to get furious about it, it takes a lot to get me furious.
"Note that it treats cases where the father is a citizen/legal immigrant differently than cases where it's the mother;"
Having re-read the EO, I find that it doesn't really treat men and women differently, I was just having one of my increasingly common senior moments. Aging sucks, even if it beats the alternative.
So forget about that particular avenue of attack.
There is case law on different burdens for citizenship deriving from fathers or mothers. My recollection is some disparate treatment survived a challenge and some did not.
That could be true, Brett. But I'd guess that this administration figures they'll ask for everything from this SCOTUS, and who knows what they might get.
I think the text is very straightforward and there can be no serious dispute about what was meant.
At the same time, numerous constitutional provisions - “commerce between the sevdral states,” “gold and silver coin,” and much more - have been construed practically out of existence by past courts. A Humpty-Dumpty constitution whose words mean exactly what judges or Presidents want them to mean, no more and no less, provides no protection whatsoever if we find our republic headed for a fall. The question is as Humpty-Dumpty put it: Who is to be master?
"Congress shall make no law..."
"does John Roberts tell us what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" actually means?" - Josh
Um, what? SCOTUS already did this in Wong Kim Ark. Does Josh even bother read precedent? It's not a mystery what "subject to the jurisdiction means since the supreme court already told us.
Is SCOTUS bound by the Wong Kim Ark decision? The Trump administration is, theoretically.
Like all precedent, SCOTUS is bound by it only to the extent it chooses to be.
The EO conforms to Wong Kim Ark. That case concerned persons who had taken up legal permanent residence i.e. domicile in the U.S.
SCOTUS could certainly revisit that case though. It was 5-4 by the way and the dissent had the more compelling opinion. Before Wong Kim Ark, Elk v Wilkins and Slaughterhouse Cases had it right.
Sorry, just noticed I said 5-4 but I was thinking of Plyler v Doe. WKA was 6-2 with the same people that decided Plessy v. Ferguson. Gray also rejected his own prior opinion in Elk v Wilkins without any explanation.
There is no contradiction between Elk v. Wilkins and Wong Kim Ark, since Elk v. Wilkins was about Indians and WKA is not.
You are entitled to (incorrectly) think the dissent had the more compelling argument in WKA, but you are not entitled¹ to incorrectly put forth the dissent's position as if it prevailed.
There is nothing whatsoever in WKA that says that the domicile of WKA's parents was material to the opinion, any more than it says that the fact that WKA was of Chinese descent is material. It mentions both facts more than once; it does not say that the holding turns on either one. He was born here, he's subject to the jurisdiction, so he's a citizen.
¹Yes, for pedants, one is entitled to say just about anything. One can say that 2+2 = 7½ if one chooses.
"There is no contradiction between Elk v. Wilkins and Wong Kim Ark, since Elk v. Wilkins was about Indians and WKA is not."
That is as conclusory as Justice Gray's opinion in WKA was with respect to Elk v Wilkins.
No analysis or explanation. Just "Because Indians."
I must have missed the part in the text of the citizenship clause about Indians, can you point me to that?
"nothing whatsoever in WKA that says that the domicile of WKA's parents was material to the opinion"
There is plenty in the opinion to suggest that, and those were the facts of the case in any event. You are free to argue for the more expansive interpretation of that holding.
Yes, that's right! Indians were sui generis.
Sure: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof."
There isn't. There's no "Since his parents were permanent residents, WKA is a citizen." There's not even a negative implication, no "we need not address the scenario in which his parents were visitors," nothing like that. Indeed, the Court describes English law expressly saying that children of temporary "sojourners" were citizens, noted that this had been English law for 300 years, said that this rule was in effect when we were English colonies, and said that it continued to be the law here after independence.
I reiterate: the facts of the case were also that WKA was of Chinese descent. Do you think you can conclude from this that the decision turned on him being Chinese rather than, say, Japanese or Ottoman or Mexican? That's just not how legal analysis works; you can't seize on a random fact mentioned in an opinion and decide that this fact was essential to the holding w/o any textual basis for doing so.
For example, the court specifically included the fact of domicile in their own framing of the question presented. It was also included in the operative language of the holding. It was a stipulated fact submitted to the court that WKA "had established and enjoyed a permanent domicile and residence therein at said city and county of San Francisco." Gray recounted the facts that "“They [Wong Kim Ark’s parents] were at the time of his birth domiciled residents of the United States, having previously established and are still enjoying a permanent domicile and residence therein at San Francisco.” And further, that WKA "ever since his birth, has had but one residence, to wit, in California, within the United States and has there resided, claiming to be a citizen of the United States, and has never lost or changed that residence, or gained or acquired another residence; and neither he, nor his parents acting for him, ever renounced his allegiance to the United States."
The holding of WKA is quite straightforward that children born to parents who are domiciled in the US are sufficiently “subject to the jurisdiction” of the US. Anything beyond that is dicta.
Again: the fact that he was of Chinese descent was also a stipulated fact. So what? Unless the court uses the word "because" (or something equivalent) you don't get to decide that the decision turns on any random piece of factual background mentioned about the case.
The holding of WKA is quite straightforward that all children born in the U.S., other than to diplomats, armies, or Indians, are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and are therefore citizens by birth.
His parent's domicile has literally zero to do with whether he was subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. when he was born.
It also established he was born in San Francisco. Does that mean only people born in San Francisco are natural born citizens? The reason he was found to be a citizen is cause he was born in America, not because his parents were domiciled.
It's also established he was named Wong Kim Ark! Therefore, people named Charlie who are born in the U.S. to foreign parents are not citizens, because the Court has never so held about anyone named Charlie.
Right! It also specifies that he was a person. But that doesn't mean the holding is limited to people. Perhaps Wong Kim Ark stands for the proposition that elephants can be citizens. Also possibly irrelevant, the fact that he was born in the US. Elephants born in Siberia might be citizens too under this holding.
Silliness aside, back in reality, the opinion includes an instructive statement on the distinguishing holding from dicta: 'It is a maxim, not to be disregarded, that general expressions, in every opinion, are to be taken in connection with the case in which those expressions are used. If they go beyond the case, they may be respected, but ought not to control the judgment in a subsequent suit when the very point is presented for decision. The reason of this maxim is obvious. The question actually before the court is investigated with care, and considered in its full extent. Other principles which may serve to illustrate it are considered in their relation to the case decided, but their possible bearing on all other cases is seldom completely investigated.'
There you have it.
Just found a few interesting articles that get into this issue:
Part II.C. here: https://static.heritage.org/legal-and-judicial/birthright-citizenship/Law%20Review%20Final%20Print.pdf
She summarized that part of the article in a tweet: https://x.com/AmySwearer/status/1881857640835224049
"I address Wong Kim Ark at length in the law review article, but the tl;dr is that the holding is quite narrow - the U.S.-born children of lawfully present and permanently domiciled aliens are citizens. Two important things to note: (1) The Chinese Exclusion Acts at the time prevented Chinese immigrants from becoming naturalized citizens. Ever. Wong Kim Ark's parents had no legal manner of obtaining citizenship, which created a class of permanent lawful residents who were relegated to perpetual alien status based on race alone - not just for them, but for generations of subsequent U.S.-born descendants who'd have absolutely no allegiance to any nation except the US, where they were born, lived, and died. This almost identically parallels the plight of the U.S.-born descendants of African slaves after Dred Scott, which was precisely the thing the CRA and 14th Amendment were concerned with undoing. (2) The Wong Kim Ark Court at every opportunity emphasizes the lawful and permanent domicile of his parents at the time of his birth, something that is utterly irrelevant if it truly understood the 14th Amendment to adopt common law jus soli, as advocates for universal birthright citizenship today contend. If that were the case, the Court's entire analysis would have ended with "he was born on U.S. and his parents were not diplomats.""
Also: https://www.chapman.edu/law/_files/publications/clr-vol-22/10eastman_online.pdf
The Wong Kin Ark decision did not tell us what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means in the case of aliens who are illegally present in the country, and not permanent legal residents. Does that make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. Right now it's an open question. Let the SCOTUS resolve it.
It did in fact tell us what it means. What you're doing is not how case interpretation works. When a court sets forth a general principle, it does not need to list every possible permutation that falls under that principle and confirm that the principle was meant to apply to each of those permutations.
Court: "John, who is black, sues because the government discriminated against him. Pursuant to this constitutional provision, the government may not discriminate based on race. So John wins his suit."
You: "Okay, but the court doesn't explicitly say that this provision applies to Asian people, so that's still an 'open question' that the court will need to resolve."
No, it isn't. (Of course, a later court could say otherwise — but until it does, it's a settled question.)
That is precisely what I meant by it remains to be seen
What's the general principle? To me, it is: legal resident has child in America, the legal status of the child is citizen.
That is silent on the legal citizenship status of children born to illegal aliens. Different general principle must be articulated. The circumstances are not the same.
Why would SCOTUS incent criminal behavior...an illegal alien broke the law by being here, why reward them/child with citizenship from breaking the law. That is fruit from a poisonous tree. That doesn't make logical sense.
One last point. I was taught in school that if you were born here, you were a citizen, and parental illegal/legal status did not count. Time and circumstances now force a re-examination of that question.
The general principle is anyone¹ has a child in America, the legal status of the child is citizen.
¹Minus the three exceptions of diplomats, invading armies, and Indians.
Josh also lies that Zivotofsky says the President have unilateral authority over passports. SCOTUS ruled that he has unilateral authority over recognizing foreign countries. Josh either doesn't read the cases he cites or lies. More likely the latter.
"Josh either doesn't read the cases he cites or lies. More likely the latter." I'm betting it's both.
From Zivotofsky's majority, "In holding §214(d) invalid the Court does not question the substantial powers of Congress over foreign affairs in general or passports in particular. This case is confined solely to the exclusive power of the President to control recognition determinations, including formal statements by the Executive Branch acknowledging the legitimacy of a state or government and its territorial bounds."
So Ziivotofsky didn't rule the President has unilateral authority over passports, despite Josh's outright lie.
I had thought this was well established. The correct answer is (A) children of diplomats, (B) non-citizen American Indians, and (C) occupying armies.
Category (B) has been a null set since Congress naturalized all U.S.-born Native Americans in 1925.
Category (C) is a null set, at least until some enterprising Canadienne decides to give birth on Machias Seal Island.
That leaves category (A): children of people with diplomatic immunity.
You thought wrong. Anyone "subject to a foreign power" is excluded. Those are the words of the citizenship clause from the 1866 Civil Rights Act. When they adopted the 14A citizenship clause, everyone agreed their objective was to constitutionalize the CRA's citizenship clause. The updated language was considered an improvement but the object to be arrived at the same.
That language from the 1866 statute (not the Constitution) is harped on in… wait for it… the *dissent* from Wong Kim Ark.
In Wong’s own case, it was undisputed that his parents were subjects of the Chinese emperor when Wong was born in San Francisco. And yet the Court held, 6-2, that he was a citizen by force of the Fourteenth Amendment.
One can sputter away about what Congress surely must have meant, but I stand with Scalia: “What I look for in the Constitution is precisely what I look for in a statute: the original meaning of the text, not what the original draftsmen intended.” Here, the 1866 act’s language is just different than the Constitution. If you draw the Venn diagrams, there are plenty of people who are subject to a foreign power and also within the jurisdiction of the United States. Heck, I’m one of them: I stay registered for the Austrian draft like the good Doppelbürger I am, and I also pay my U.S. income taxes every year.
Before WKA, there was the Slaughterhouse Cases and Elk v Wilkins. While the former addressed the issue only in dicta, the logic and reasoning of those opinions more closely aligned with the original meaning on this issue.
I tend to agree with Scalia on that, as well. Still, there is a question of the original meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." Modern readers such as yourself have a tendency to flippantly apply their own modern context understanding of a word and dismiss the issue.
But it doesn't take much to figure out that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" did not simply mean subject to its laws, as someone today might assume. For example you may be interested to learn that it did not apply to Indians, because they owed allegiance to a quasi foreign, they were not subject to "full and complete" jurisdiction of the US. Even if they were born in the middle of New York City, if they maintained tribal relations and were thus subject to a quasi foreign power, they were not fully subject to US jurisdiction in the original meaning of the citizenship clause.
Well, that seems to have escaped Judge Ho, who wrote:
Do you think anyone here is "learning" that? But it had nothing whatsoever to do with "allegiance." It had to do with the fact that Indian tribes, as quasi-sovereigns, generally were not subject to our laws. We generally dealt with tribes through treaties, not legislation. The same, of course, is not true of immigrants within our borders, legal or otherwise, temporary or permanent.
"But it had nothing whatsoever to do with "allegiance." "
You're just arguing with what the ratifiers said here.
"It had to do with the fact that Indian tribes, as quasi-sovereigns, generally were not subject to our laws."
Yes - while physically present in their territories, they were generally not subject to our laws. That is what establishes their quasi foreign nature. Trumbull likened Indians physically present within their territories to Mexicans in Mexico! But if an Indian was physically within a state and not within their territory, they would then be subject to US laws, just like any other foreign national. They would not, however, be subject to full political jurisdiction, due to the fact that they had tribal allegiances with a quasi foreign sovereign. If they maintained such tribal relations, that is.
That's what the ratifiers said, anyway. You can always argue the text of the amendment they passed didn't mean what they thought it meant.
I'm more arguing with your interpretation of what the ratifiers said here. When you are present in the U.S., you owe allegiance to the U.S. — that is, you agree to be bound by U.S. law — regardless of your parents' status. (As always, there are those three exceptions.)
Do you agree that if we go by what the ratifiers said, an Indian with tribal relations and allegiance was not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US? No matter where physically located?
"Allegiance" just means "Subject to our laws". Hence Illegal Aliens owe allegiance to our laws. Hence their children are citizens.
Elk is consistent with WKA and children of illegals being citizens. An Indian born on Indian territory is equivalent to a Frenchman born in France - not a US citizen. But in the court case US vs Elm Indians can be natural born citizens if they are not born in Indian territory. Hence, you are wrong. An Indian born in New York City is indeed a US citizen.
US v. Elm (1877) - I don't remember looking at this case before - Very Interesting! I will admit that I like the case more upon seeing it supports my position. Copied some below:
In a general sense every person born in the United
States is within the jurisdiction thereof while he
remains in the country. Aliens, while residing here,
owe a local allegiance, and are equally bound with
citizens to obey all general laws for the maintenance
of peace and order which do not relate specially
to our own citizens, and they are amenable to the
ordinary tribunals of the country. But there are classes
of residents who, though they may be born here,
are not subject to the exercise of those prerogatives
of sovereignty which a government has the right to
enforce over its own citizens, and over them alone,
and it is to these that the language of the amendment
applies. Within this sense, those persons who, though
born here, are born within the allegiance of a foreign
sovereign, or of another government, are not subject
to the jurisdiction of the United States. The children
of ambassadors, though in fact born here, are, in the
theory of the law, born within the allegiance of the
foreign power the parent represents.
Indians who maintain their tribal relations, are the
subjects of independent governments, and, as such,
not in the jurisdiction of the United States, within
the meaning of the amendment, because the Indian
nations have always been regarded as distinct political
communities, between which and our government
certain international relations were to be maintained.
These relations are established by treaties to the same
extent as with foreign powers. They are treated as
1007 sovereign communities, possessing and exercising
the right of free deliberation and action, but, in
consideration of protection, owing a qualified
subjection to the United States.
If defendant's tribe continued to maintain its tribal
integrity, and he continued to recognize his tribal
relations, his status as a citizen would not be affected
by the fourteenth amendment; but such is not his case.
His tribe has ceased to maintain its tribal integrity, and
he has abandoned his tribal relations, as will hereafter
appear; and because of these facts, and because
Indians in this state are subject to taxation, he is
a citizen, within the meaning of the fourteenth
amendment. This conclusion is sanctioned not only
by the language of the fourteenth amendment, but is
fortified by other legislation by congress concerning
citizenship.
Um, what? It completely repudiates your position. It explicitly says children of diplomats and untaxed Indians are not citizens, but everyone else born in America is, including taxed Indians. Can you even read english?
I must admit that I share cannpro's puzzlement at how you can conclude that this supports your position rather than repudiating it.
It's been a number of years since I read these cases, and I didn't remember the details of that one, so as I was reading your excerpt, I was thinking to myself, "Oh, we're going to get to some loose language in here he could be seizing on." But… we never did. It just supports the point: everyone except diplomats and indians.
Go back and read what I said that cannpro was disagreeing with, and what cannpro said.
The case squarely supports my position that Indians who maintained tribal relations were excluded from "jurisdiction," regardless of if they were born outside of their territory. Here, you have Indians whose tribe ceased to maintain a quasi foreign status. They abandoned their tribal relations, and therefore were within jurisdiction. But the court quite clearly says that if they had maintained tribal relations, they would be outside of full political jurisdiction, even though born in NYC.
Where do you see in the part you excerpt "even though born in NYC"? (I understand that this wasn't meant to be a direct quote, but you claim the court "quite clearly" said that. Where do you think it did so?)
"If defendant's tribe continued to maintain its tribal
integrity, and he continued to recognize his tribal
relations, his status as a citizen would not be affected
by the fourteenth amendment"
In other words, if he had tribal allegiance, he would have been outside the full political jurisdiction of the US.
On closer look, he was born in some other town, not NYC as I thought cannpro was suggesting, but it matters not.
US v. Elm entirely cuts against your argument that Indians can't be natural born citizens. Only Indians from reservations whose tribal governments still operate are excluded. Elk was born on an Indian reservation; Elm was born in Lenox, Madison county. His tribe no longer existed as a political entity.
So Wong Kim Ark was like Elm, the children of Indians(foreigners) who had left the reservation. Elk was in the position of Wong Kim Ark' parents.
First, no, it doesn't work that way. What matters is the language that was actually adopted, not different language that they could've adopted. If they wanted to codify "subject to a foreign power" they could have just said that. They chose different language, and what's important is what that language means.
Second, even adopting your formulation, that just begs the question. Why do you think that any people born in the U.S. — not including the trifecta (diplomats, armies, and Indians) — are "subject to a foreign power"?
"what's important is what that language means."
I agree. And, at least for the drafters and those involved in the ratification debates, it meant the same thing, excluding those "subject to a foreign power."
I repeat: assuming it meant that, why do you think it helps your argument?
It doesn't help my argument so much as it is my argument. I'm open to ideas on the implications of that, the ins and outs of who is subject to a foreign power, or who may be brought within the full political jurisdiction of the US. The ratification debates indicate the U.S. would have some discretion over that.
The ratification debates indicate everyone in favor and opposed to the 14th amendment agreed that subject to a foreign power meant diplomats, invading armies, and Indian territory. The entire point of it being a constitutional amendment was to take away any discretion from a future congress. That's the point of constitutional amendments.
The point of it was to take away discretion from a future Congress regarding freed black persons - basically racial categorization. The ratifiers said they contemplated that the US would have power to determine, to some extent, who would be brought within their political jurisdiction, such as through treaties or decisions regarding territories, etc. Of course, they had no need of immigration laws back then, but fast forward to today and the same is true with respect to immigration law, the U.S. ostensibly decides who to bring into its full political jurisdiction.
Nope. SCOTUS rejected all of your arguments in Wong Kim Ark. The 14th Amendment does not apply just to Blacks. All races and creeds are subject to the terms of the amendment, and the amendment leaves no congressional discretion, that's why it's an amendment. You would know this if you actually read Wong Kim Ark or the ratifying debates, but you haven't. If you had you could quote a single example in your favor, but you can't.
I've read the cases and the ratification debates too many times. And I've quoted them here too many times. On the off chance that you actually care, below are some of my other recent comments here on the issue. There is plenty of disagreement of course. Good day to you,
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/22/midweek-midday-open-thread-3/?comments=true#comment-10881597
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/21/trumps-birthright-citizenship-order-is-even-worse-than-expected-and-even-more-blatantly-unconstitutional/?comments=true#comment-10879462
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/11/25/new-article-on-birthright-citizenship-and-undocumented-immigrants/?comments=true#comment-10814215
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/10/21/monday-open-thread-76/?comments=true#comment-10767559
Well, first of all, no. They weren't worried about Congress. If the holding of Dred Scott was not overturned, then Congress couldn't do anything because that case said that blacks could never be citizens under the constitution. They were also worried, of course, about the former slave states, so they stripped those states of the power to decide who was a citizen. (All states, of course, not just the former slave states. But they were worried about the latter.)
Second, it's true that protecting blacks from Dred Scott was the immediate impetus for the amendment, but they passed a much broader amendment than that. They could've simply said that blacks were entitled to be citizens on the same footing as whites. But instead, they decided to codify the common law, to cover all people, not just blacks.
No, you're not; you're insisting it must mean something different than the Supreme Court said it meant.
Ok. So suppose he can deny passports. That's not quite the same as denying citizenship. Is Trump's goal to create a subclass of birthright citizens who don't have passports? So they can't vacation in Mexico?