The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order is Even Worse than Expected - and Even More Blatantly Unconstitutional
It applies to children of large numbers of legal visa-holders, as well as those of undocumented immigrants.

Yesterday, I pointed out that Trump's promised executive order denying birthright citizenship to undocumented immigrants was likely to be unconstitutional because it blatantly violates Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, which grants citizenship to anyone "born … in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." We now have the text of the order, and it is even worse than expected.
The order doesn't just deny birthright citizenship to children of migrants who entered the US illegally. It also denies it to children of those who entered the US on perfectly legal temporary work and tourism visas. As Reason immigration writer Fiona Harrigan explains, this will affect children of many thousands of work visa holders, including H-1B visa holders much-loved by Elon Musk, among others.
In a recent Just Security article, I critiqued the (very weak) arguments that children of undocumented immigrants aren't entitled to birthright citizenship because they are not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. These arguments are even more absurd when it comes to children of legal visa holders. The latter and their parents are completely subject to US laws, arguably even more so than the undocumented. And the weak argument that children of undocumented immigrants don't qualify because their parents are "invaders" is still more ridiculous when it comes to children of people who entered legally.
The executive order only applies to children born after February 19 of this year. But if the legal logic behind it is sound, nothing would prevent the administration from applying it retroactively. Indeed, if children of these types of immigrants really are excluded from birthright citizenship, retroactive application might be constitutionally required.
If the order stands, it would also create a bureaucratic morass that threatens to engulf even children of native-born citizens. In order to secure citizenship for your child, it would no longer be enough to provide documentation of parentage or place of birth. You would also presumably need to show the parents had the appropriate legal status - and their parents before them, potentially all the way back to the first member of the family who entered the US, perhaps decades or centuries ago. After all, if there is even one break in the legal status of the family tree, it could potentially render succeeding generations ineligible for birthright citizenship! At the very least, this is likely to be a serious burden for poorer and lesser-educated parents, who may not have easy access to documentation going back decades.
Lawsuits challenging the order have already been filed by the ACLU (on behalf immigrant groups), and 18 state governments. I won't go into the procedural issues in detail. But I expect many, if not all, these plaintiffs will have standing to sue, and overcome other procedural hurdles. This is particularly likely in the case of some of the ACLU clients, who are expectant mothers on temporary visas, scheduled to give birth after February 19. Supreme Court precedent on state government standing is murky. But I tentatively predict at least some of the states should be able to get standing based on the fact that the citizenship status of residents affects funding streams for various federal grants to the states.
I also hope and expect that courts will ultimately strike down this order.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Will no one rid us of this turbulent Somin?
I'm sorry if someone speaking truth to power (or at least to Reason readers) is inconvenient to you.
About the same as assholes who us "truth to power" as if it's meaningful.
Except he is speaking lies to power.
He loves illegal immigrants who come here and rape and murder American citizens.
He's entirely wrong of course. Birthright citizenship is prohibited by the Constitution.
Unfortunately the new Trump EOs do not include deporting Somin back to Russia.
To win the new Trumperverse "cruelty to others" competition, you're going to have to try much harder than that. C+
My understanding was that the temporary status had to apply to both parents, not just one. So the nightmare scenario of tracing your ancestry back against a single break would not be correct. Once you could show one citizen parent, you're golden. At least, that was how I read it.
But try something different. Assume the goal is to prevent birthright citizenship from creating 'anchor babies,' and further assume that there will never be political will to deport parents without their children. Can you craft a policy that would accomplish those goals legally?
The usual argument is that a constitutional amendment is required to move even a little bit towards a jus sanguinis regime.
I think that argument is fairly good in the base case, and much stronger for cases where an alien's visa is not explicitly dependent on being not-pregnant. (I think tourism visas usually do make that explicit, but student visas might be silent. College students might reasonably get pregnant without either planning or malice.)
A quick tip to improve your rhetorical effectiveness: I would try to avoid referring to the concept of “getting pregnant with malice” as much as possible.
Set down the pickles and ice cream and back away slowly…
This EO seems the way to do it = craft the policy, and legal case
Can you craft a policy that would accomplish those goals legally?
Yes. Secure the border. Which the border bill Trump spiked would've gone a long way towards accomplishing.
You're totally wrong that Democrats don't want to secure the border. I don't even think Ilya is against securing the border -- he wants more legal immigration, not illegal. We're just particular about how to do it, like, no killing immigrants or subjecting them to performative cruelty.
Democrats just ran for President on open borders. Just watch them complain about the Trump EOs to secure the border.
"Anchor baby" is not a legal term or concept; only a political one. But it seems passingly strange to suggest that there's more political will to deny these kids citizenship and deport them than just to deport them.
Why do the children of illegals deserve citizenship? To reward their illegal parents?
"Deserve"? Why do the children of citizens "deserve" citizenship? What did either those kids or their parents ever do to earn it?
I will admit that natural born citizens do inherit the honor, and responsibilities, of citizenship. But that doesn't explain why you believe this honor should be bestowed on the offspring of illegals. It is not the national heritage of their illegal parents.
Because otherwise you end up with a permanent underclass of illegal residents. It's why the 14th was done in the first place. We didn't want freed slaves to turn into another sort of permanent underclass. Permanent underclasses are really bad news for a country.
"inherit the honor, and responsibilities"
"the national heritage of their illegal parents"
Bizarre take on how humans work.
Well, bizarre for an American.
Why do the children of illegals deserve citizenship? To reward their illegal parents?
Why would the children of people in the country illegally deserve to be punished for their parents' actions?
> Can you craft a policy that would accomplish those goals legally?
Easy. One parent is a US Citizen? Baby is Citizen. Otherwise, baby not a citizen. Easy!
I don’t really see how. By the terms of the order, if either parent was a U.S. citizen of lawful permanent resident (and the child is born in the U.S., obviously) that’s enough to make the child subject to the jurisdiction of the United States: I don’t see anything that would require anyone to provide any additional documentation.
To be clear, that’s a clearly incorrect construction of the statute and the constitution. But I don’t see any reason to make up convoluted hypotheticals to make it looo worse.
The argument, whether a court would construe it this way or not I don't know, is that you can't prove your parent was a citizen without looking back. Given the prospective nature of the order that isn't an issue for that regulatory definition, but because the legality of the order is premised on the 14th A. not granting citizenship per the constitution, you'd have to keep looking at the statutes on the books at the time of your parents birth to see if they are a citizen. If it is premised on them having a citizen parent then you'd have to do the same for that parent (your grandparent), and so on.
I think the hypothetical depends on his other assertion that it will be hard to justify the Feb 19 date. That is, if it stands, then it's retroactive.
In that case, a lot of people who currently think they're citizens won't be. So it won't be enough to simply show that a parent is a citizen... they might be an invalid citizen! How do you prove that at least one of your parents is a real citizen? If they're not white, it might be hard.
We have a whole system to prove someone is an American citizen (ignoring your racist comment of course). It's actually very easy.
"subject to the jurisdiction" has a really obvious meaning and purpose to me. It rules out foreign dignitaries and their families to say that only those subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. will give birth to U.S. citizens on U.S. soil. It may have also been intended to make it so that Native Americans wouldn't automatically get citizenship either, if they were living among tribes that had 'treaties' with the U.S. or that otherwise didn't acknowledge U.S. sovereignty over the land they lived on. If that was indeed part of the reasoning, then it add a racist dimension to a provision mainly aimed at making sure that racists didn't deny freed slaves their rights by trying to apply the Dred Scott precedent in spite of losing the Civil War.
In sum, it means something. And that something is not simply being born in the US, otherwise it would be redundant/meaningless since the amendment already requires birth within the country.
Since the requirement "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" applies to both "persons born" and "persons ... naturalized," we can ask: how does this requirement operate in cases of naturalization? Specifically, what individuals undergo naturalization in the United States but do not acquire U.S. citizenship because they are not subject to U.S. jurisdiction?
Maybe construe "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as not modifiying "naturalized," as if " or naturalizd" were sepearated by commas? Don't blame me, I didn't draft the damn thing.
I really don't think ending birthright citizenship has a snowball's chance with the likes of Barrett and Roberts. I wish the VC would spill some ink on stuff that actually could really shake things up like the Texas porn id/doxing case.
Nor should it be ended. When you asses squeak "shining city on the hill!", this is a symptom of it, and something to be proud of.
But xenophobia works, so it is used by politicians, even though birthright citizenship is just a tiny fraction of the problem.
Where the problem is one your conservative bros Bernie Sanders and Cesar Chavez agree with!
Sorry, generic "you". Too late to edit.
At this point I don’t need a shining city on a hill. I’d gladly settle for a country where people live in reasonable peace without tearing each other up and spewing hate at each other, and where politicians have some means of acquiring power other than stirring up and profiting off that hate.
I’m not asking for a whole lot. At this point, I’d take an ordinary country, thank you.
Perhaps not, but if they would actually read the 39th Congress and adhere to the original meaning, it would.
The outcome -- and intent? -- of this EO will be to create a permanent underclass of illegal residents. Notably, avoiding this outcome was the purpose of the amendment in the first place, a good sign that the order is unconstitutional. Other countries (e.g. France) avoid this problem by granting citizenship to children of parents who were either born in the country themselves or lived in it for some amount of time, but Trump's doesn't even do that.
It's hard to imagine anything more un-American than intentionally setting up a(nother) largely ethnic, multi-generational community of cheap labor and no rights within America.
if he wanted to create a permanent underclass of illegals he would encourage them to come here like the Dems are doing instead of trying to deport them over their screaming protests that nobody is going to want to do the menial backbreaking serf labor in this country.
Trump's intent is clear: demonize illegals for political purposes.
Criminal illegal aliens are already doing that.
Laken Riley bill passed Senate vote with 12 Dems in favor.
Nice goal post move. I guess I made my point.
There's a difference between Trump and the GOP / MAGA policy engine (Steves Bannon and Miller, The Claremont Institute, Heritage Foundation). Trump has been a great front man for the policies, but he's not in it for the ideology. It's just a marriage of convenience.
You switched the topic to Trump, not me.
Uh, how did I 'switch' the topic to trump? Because I used the word 'he'? So are you claiming that Trump or his team don't want deportations?
Right. They want to do some deportations, mostly for political purposes, so like criminals. I don't think they expect to deport many typical, hardworking illegal immigrants. Who benefits?
Right, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to go with the policy positions they state and all the evidence supports and even your side assumes they will make rather than wild speculation of secret hidden conspiracies that could transform their goals into literally anything.
So let's say you're right and we should take it all at face value. Do they simply not realize they're creating a permanent brown underclass?
That's true. Trump is in it for the optics. He's casually racist, but he's not ideologically so. The people you name are ideologically so; they just hate immigration for polluting the pure blood of Americans.
You could say that anyone enforcing the law is demonizing illegals.
No, we let Democrats exploit illegals. Like they expolited the Black population, until Republicans ended slavery.
The illegal population created themselves by trepassing the borders of this country.
My fear is that the unconstitutionality is deliberate. Mr. Trump may be building up momentum for a confrontation with the judiciary, perhaps by simply ignoring court orders, perhaps by inciting goons to intimidate judges who won’t go along. Perhaps as he previously attempted to intimidate the Vice President and Congress. Or perhaps worse.
If Mr. Trump either succeeds in packing the executive branch with people personally loyal to him and willing to go along, or succeeds in mobilizing an extralegal paramilitary or mob as he did previously, or both, what can the judiciary do?
Even without going this far, if undesirables are simply shoved into trucks and unceremoniously dumped across the border or kept incommunicado in concentration camps, their rights may be effectively unenforceable and of little practical value to them.
That wouldn't happen. If it did, that should be grounds for a real impeachment, where even his supporters think he needs to go.
It took less than a week after J6 for his supporters to decide that everything he did was okay. He could shoot someone on 5th avenue and they wouldn't turn on him. When judges he appoint rule against him, that's proof that they're corrupt. When his allies disagree with him, that's a sign that they're RINOs. It's a cult.
"Real impeachment"? Have you learned nothing from 2021?
I have yet to read any cogent argument that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" originally meant anything other than what the 39th Congress debates seem to state unequivocally, which is that it is a "full and complete jurisdiction" that excludes anyone who owes foreign allegiances (or even quasi-foreign such as Indian tribes).
It seems there was actually a pretty remarkable consensus among all the drafters and ratifiers in Congress on this point, which is not always the case.
Beyond that key fundamental issue, we have a current policy of granting citizenship to anyone born on US soil. To change that policy, I have assumed, would require an act of Congress. However, I suppose if there is no current act of Congress requiring that policy, and the policy is instead an accretion of executive branch decisions, then I suppose it could be reversed by executive action (setting aside the Constitutional issue noted above). I have not looked into that issue or the details of this EO.
Back to the key Constitutional issue, the biggest objection people always have is to my mind a practical one. That is, if we accept what appears to be the original meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," doesn't this present a difficult line-drawing problem as to when exactly a person has "foreign allegiances"? Or in other words, what about all the people who were around and immigrated in the 19th century? To that my tentative answer is (A) no, and (B) even if there is a line-drawing problem, that doesn't mean we can conveniently ignore the original meaning. The perceived difficulty here is that America had lots of immigrants all along, and generally they or their progeny became citizens, and at some point they were no longer considered to have foreign allegiances. The key to understanding this is to go back and read your Declaration of Independence. While America inherited and imported the English common law generally, the American revolution rejected the English common law notion of "subjectship" which was based on soil, and could never be cancelled, altered or forfeited. Instead the US adopted citizenship based on consent of the governed. Accordingly the US contemplated that immigrants could come there and, in the eyes of the US at least, renounce foreign allegiances. It even required them to do so in connection with naturalization, and later enacted a law recognizing the renouncing of allegiances as "a natural and inherent right of all people." It seems to me the act of domiciling in the US (which means permanently and lawfully taking up residence) was generally seen as an intent to become an American and dissolve foreign allegiances. But clearly there were also treaties and other acts of Congress which could govern these issues and in turn define, in part, the class of persons subject to the sort of jurisdiction referred to in the clause. All that to say, when people ask "but where do we draw the liiinnnneeee?" I think Harry Reid's 1993 bill makes sense which says that anyone born to a mother who is not a citizen or lawful permanent resident, and who upon birth "is a national or citizen of another country .. or is entitled upon application to become a national or citizen of such country, shall be considered as born subject to the jurisdiction of that foreign country.."
One possible line is whether one or both parents or the mother is domiciled here. That's an existing legal determination.
The interesting part is that it's determined by state law, and it doesn't turn on the legality of residence (unless the state wants it to). So we could get into a place where blue states have birthright citizenship and red states don't.
No, it will be controlled by their immigration status at the federal level. Congress has the power to determine, in part, who is "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US in this sense. When I mentioned domicile, I am mostly trying to speak to broad questions people have asked here before about 19th century practices and how those are explained in terms of this issue. Of course states have various "residence" or "domicile" definitions, including multiple different definitions within a state for different legal purposes, but there's no reason that would be relevant to this issue.
Unless of course Ilya Somin's other big view on immigration were adopted, which is that the federal government actually has no power to regulate immigration at all (but apparently then states would have such power, including as to immigration from other states).
If Somin's view on immigration were to be adopted, America would cease to exist in any recognizable form within 10-15 years.
You're the one asking for a line, and then you say "there's no reason that would be relevant to this issue?" Yeah, it's hard to draw a line when you think lines are irrelevant. 🙂
Suppose we took the Harry Reid* Approach. Then suppose the parents' home country - let's say Honduras - passes a law that denies automatic Honduran citizenship to their children. Instead, it says they can apply for Honduran citizenship but it will be considered on a case by case basis, and will be denied unless (a) it appears to Honduran officials that the child has always and sincerely intended to be Honduran, and (b) the granting of citizenship would not further the policy objectives of any country that appears to be trying to deport Hondurans.
What then? I hope you can see the pitfalls in granting foreign governments - perhaps unfriendly ones - any say, directly or indirectly, in who gets to be a US citizen.
PS: I'll leave aside for now the blatant sexism in not letting US citizen fathers keep their native born children.
PPS: This approach is bad enough that it deserves to be linked to the name of Harry Reid, a man who openly boasted that his lies were successful.
You might have a point there demonstrating why the approach of Trump's EO is superior to Harry Reid's approach.
There was indeed a consensus about what it meant. Which was birthright citizenship.
In other words, your argument is that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" doesn't mean anything. Your paraphrase would be that the 14th amendment grants citizenship to anyone "born … in the United States and born in the United States."
Those are indeed other words, but not mine. I really wish they would reprogram the bot to at least pretend to respond to the actual words said. I have said multiple times the same thing that everyone else has said: that those words exclude diplomats, invading armies, and Indians born on Indian reservations.
In essence, disregarding your obnoxious insults, it means something and you simply want to attach a restricted meaning to suit your politics. What can I say? You're wrong. Like you were wrong on presidential immunity and wrong about the disqualification clause.
But I can see this conversation is now at an end since you lack the ability to exchange comments like a reasonable adult. Past time I muted you.
it means something and you simply want to attach a restricted meaning to suit your politics
How is this not exactly what you're doing?
I don't even understand that criticism. First he complains that I think the restriction has no meaning, and then when I finally get through to him that I think the restriction does have meaning, he's complaining that I'm using a restricted meaning.
Care to back up your conclusory statement with some support from the 39th Congress? Or attempt to explain why the dozens of quotes typically discussed don't actually mean what they apparently mean?
They do mean exactly what they apparently mean. Howard clearly said that it applied to everyone except the children of ambassadors, and then Cowan argued not that Howard was misinterpreting it but that it was a bad idea because then you might get Gypsies and Chinese people becoming citizens, and then Coness said, in essence, "So what?" Trumbull then brought up the only issue that was in dispute: how would this apply to Indians? And there was some debate and disagreement about that, with some arguing that it should more explicitly exclude them. But nobody at all suggested there was some extra class to whom it didn't apply.
Howard clearly said that it applies to everyone except foreigners, aliens, and the children of ambassadors. Right away, Doolittle asked if language need to be added to clarify that this does not include Indians.
Howard said no, because Indian tribes were "quasi foreign" and that counts as being in the foreigners category he had just mentioned.
Your statement about what Howard said is quite obviously completely false, and you only need to go a few more sentences to the part about Indians to show that.
Cowan then rants about race, which as Conness said was irrelevant.
Discussion then focused on Indians and whether being "quasi foreign" was enough to consider them in the "foreigners, aliens" category that Howard first mentioned.
It did not reject any such thing. That was the principle upon which American citizenship was always based up until Roger Taney invented a longwinded way to express the n-word. The 14th amendment was meant to restore the pre-Dred Scott regime, not to narrow it.
"It did not reject any such thing."
Incorrect. Under the English common law, subjectship was something that could never be renounced. The American revolution emphatically rejected that, obviously. As James Wilson said “Under the Constitution of the United States there are citizens, but no subjects.” Years later in 1868 Congress further declared that expatriation was "a natural and inherent right of all people."
"The 14th amendment was meant to restore the pre-Dred Scott regime, not to narrow it."
Correct. As stated in Trump's EO.
You may have noticed that my words "any such thing" came after a quoted phrase: "the English common law notion of 'subjectship' which was based on soil," That is what everyone agreed was the law until Roger Taney. I agree that the framers didn't believe it couldn't be renounced; indeed, that was part of the casus belli for the War of 1812. But they did believe in jus soli
Glad you agree. And the pre-Dred Scott regime was birthright citizenship without exception, other than the common law exceptions of diplomats and armies.
You clipped the rest of the phrase: "and could never be cancelled, altered or forfeited." Going by memory, but that is along the lines of a Blackstone quote. That was a fundamental part of the English common law notion of "subjectship," which notion was rejected by the American revolution.
I did clip it, because I wasn't responding to that part. I agree with you that we didn't accept the idea that one couldn't renounce one's citizenship. But we did adopt the principle of birthright citizenship. And we consistently applied it! Until Taney retroactively decided it meant "except for blacks."
How does the Trump Admin get a case to SCOTUS to decide this question? How does that happen?
You need someone with standing, and suffered an injury, correct?
Well, 22(?) states already filed a case, so I expect it will go like most leftist initiated cases when an (R) is president:
1) They will somehow have standing to have the case survive.
2) A parade of Biden, Obama, and GWB judges will rule against the administration.
The argument for these Democrat Party states having standing is far worse than the leftist arguments for red states not having standing for the student loan abuses.
That's incredibly easy.
Step 1. Trump issues an executive order to forbid federal officials from treating some Americans as citizens. (Step 1 is complete.)
Step 2. People sue. (Step 2 is also complete. I'm not sure about the current plaintiffs, but at the very least, any affected child would have standing.)
Step 3. District judge rules against Trump if for no other reason than that precedent requires it.
Step 4. Trump appeals to circuit court. Circuit Court rules against Trump if for no other reason than that precedent requires it.
Step 5. Trump petitions SCOTUS for cert.
Step 6. SCOTUS, probably over a vigorous dissent by Thomas, denies cert.
Is Thomas anti-birthright-citizenship? I didn't know that.
I concede I am not basing that comment on anything other than general cynicism about Clarence Thomas, particularly given his radical refusal to accept stare decisis. I may be being unfair to him; I know that one of his star proteges, Judge Ho of the 5th Circuit, is pro-birthright citizenship. (As a legal matter; I don't know what he thinks of it as a policy matter.)
Oh, Alito is my go-to justice for that. He doesn't even pretend to have principles.
Alito is obviously outcome-oriented, but he doesn't have an ambition to rewrite the entire U.S. Reports because he thinks he's smarter than every previous justice who ever lived. You don't see solo dissents from Alito saying, "Forget all this precedent; we ought to go back to 1789" on every case, and you don't see him joining all the otherwise solo dissents from Thomas saying that. (Gorsuch sometimes does; he's not as conservative as Thomas, but he like Thomas he also likes to say, "Hey, look at me," a lot.)
To be clear, I'm not saying that Alito never does that, but he does it in order to achieve a specific policy goal, not just to preen about his fealty to first principles.
What circuit court would decide the case? DC circuit?
The circuit court that covers whatever district the case was filed in.
Congress can channel all appeals to a specific circuit — it did so in the TikTok case, just as one recent example — but obviously Congress hasn't acted here; this is just an authoritarian ploy by Trump.
If we are talking about the suit brought by blue state AGs, how do they have standing and even get into court (other than to have it dismissed for lack of standing)?
I don't know; I haven't looked at the text of their actual lawsuit(s). I am a skeptic of state standing in general — I think Massachusetts v EPA was wrongly decided, and I think for most of the red state cases against Biden, standing was lacking. But I don't think it's very important here, because (unlike, say, the student loan cases) this EO clearly harms identifiable individuals — or will, in a month — so there will be plenty of available plaintiffs with standing even if the states don't have it.
So theoretically, Congress could pass a law stating these birthright cases must go through the 5th circuit, not 1st circuit. Is that correct?
"But if the legal logic behind it is sound, nothing would prevent the administration from applying it retroactively."
As usual, Somin is very dumb. The US can revoke citizenship in very limited circumstances only. Not granting it in the first place is different.
"Indeed, if children of these types of immigrants really are excluded from birthright citizenship, retroactive application might be constitutionally required."
How so? That's a ridiculous assertion. Just making wild claims with zero explanation or support.
"In order to secure citizenship for your child, it would no longer be enough to provide documentation of parentage or place of birth. You would also presumably need to show the parents had the appropriate legal status - and their parents before them, potentially all the way back to the first member of the family who entered the US, perhaps decades or centuries ago. After all, if there is even one break in the legal status of the family tree, it could render succeeding generations ineligible for birthright citizenship!"
I almost never read the actual text of Somin articles, and this is why. I'm confused how a law professor can be this dumb. The mother is either lawfully present, or not. The mother and father are either citizens, or not. Easy peasy. I just skimmed the EO and that's what it says. No need for going back to other generations.
Applying the rule retroactively should cancel the citizenship of Nikki Haley and Kamala Harris. Their parents were not citizens.
And once again we see the racism: this has nothing to do with illegal immigrants; the festering pus on the United States that is the Schalfly family just don't want brown people around.
There is no such thing as an illegal immigrants. This is about who becomes a citizen.
"The mother and father are either citizens, or not."
How would you prove that the mother is a U.S. citizen (assuming the EO's rules are not changing the law but just making explicit what the 14th A. provides)? Birth certificates are (no longer) proof of citizenship.
One way would be to show that you were born in the US prior to February 19, 2025, and not the offspring of a diplomat.
Surely it can't be too hard for the U.S. to know if someone is a citizen.
That's pretty easy if all we have to do is look at if they were naturalized or where they were born. But if the citizenship of one's parents is relevant, though, then you have to look at whether their parents were citizens. And if those parents were citizens only by virtue of being born here, then you have to look at their parentage — i.e., the kid's grandparents — to see if they were citizens. Which, again, is easy if they were naturalized, but if they were citizens merely by dint of being born here, then you have to go back another generation.
"And if those parents were citizens only by virtue of being born here, then you have to look at their parentage"
No, if they are citizens by virtue of being born here, then you don't have to look at their parentage. Just whether they were born here (and not subject to the diplomat exception or something). Just like you already do now.
Even if it was as you describe, that is how most of the world does it. Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia . . . don't pretend it's too hard.
But they're not citizens by virtue of being born here, if — as per Trump — that's not what the 14th amendment means. They may have thought they were, but they were mistaken.
Not granting it in the first place is different.
The Constitution grants it. It's that simple. It's not in the gift of Congress or a president.
As usual, you are much dumber. We are not talking about "revoking" anything. If the racist interpretation of the constitution were correct, then these people never were citizens in the first place, so there's nothing to revoke. Nobody ever "granted" them citizenship in the first place, and nobody is "granting" it to the people who Trump wants to deny it to.
Of course they are. The US can grant citizenship to whomever it wants, above and beyond any Constitutional minimum. Right now, the US grants citizenship to almost anyone born on US soil.
Yeah, "racism," of course. If the original meaning of the 14th amendment is racist, then perhaps we should amend it. But is it really "racism" to not allow birth tourism, for example?
The US grants citizenship to almost anyone born on US soil.
You mean US law? US law uses the precise same phrase "subject to the constitution" that is in the 14th amendment.
Either both the Constitution and laws grant birthright citizenship, or neither. Neither has a February 19th deadline anywhere in the text or interpretive history. No one in your beloved 39th Congress mentioned a February 19, 2025 expiration date.
Constitution > act of Congress > executive action
Trump cannot change the Constitution and he cannot change an act of Congress. He can change prior executive policies. I think Trump's interpretation of the 14th amendment is consistent with its original meaning. Not sure if the EO attempts to change any acts of Congress though.
And here's where you brain is broken. If Trump's interpretation of the 14th Amendment is consistent with its original meaning, and there are no statutes to the contrary, then, logically, none of the anchor babies born over the last ~150 years is in fact a citizen.
No, because the US considered them citizens and granted them citizenship. The citizenship clause is a Constitutional minimum, not a maximum.
The U.S. "considering" them citizens did not make them such if they did not otherwise qualify, and it never "granted" them citizenship.
My response to this is in another reply to you further below.
Let me ask you this: Suppose Trump had made the EO retroactive. Do you think that would (A) increase, or (B) decrease, its odds of being upheld by a federal judge?
My response to this is in another reply to you further below.
In which you handwave weakly about "reliance interests?" You need to come up with something better than that.
Regarding the retroactivity, there are four possibilities: retroactivity is required, retroactivity is optional, retroactivity is unconstitutional, or retroactivity is irrelevant because the EO is unconstitutional for other reasons.
The only case where retroactivity would decrease the EO's odds is if retroactivity is, by itself, unconstitutional. That seems almost impossible to imagine. So if anything, a retroactive EO would be more likely to be upheld.
Judges are human, not robots (most of them, anyway), so it would probably make a judge even less sympathetic to Trump's position if he attempted to claim it was retroactive. (Well, maybe not Kacsmaryk.) But as a legal matter, it would make no difference.
I think it's moot because Trump's position is meritless anyway, and a judge can only enter final judgment against you once per case. (Well, once per claim, for the pedants.)
The EO being prospective makes it more likely to pass constitutional muster. Saying that's just because judges are human and it makes no difference as a legal matter isn't very persuasive, you're just saying you disagree with judges.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to get the circularity in his argument.
To be fair, he's probably got some idea along the following lines, less ridiculously self-contradictory but more authoritarian:
(1) The 14th Amendment never meant we (the native born) were citizens by birth alone
(2) Instead, we're all citizens because past executive actions granted us citizenship based on a flawed interpretation. It was unofficial, since there's no event or ceremony establishing citizenship, but nevertheless irrevocable, even though executive actions are revokable, and somehow it's obvious who was granted or not granted without looking at the birth certificates.
(3) He finds many of these prior grants regrettable.
(4) He now has a leader who will only grant the good ones going forward.
past executive actions
Past unspoken executive actions? Or is the executive's passive acquiescence to a claim of citizenship sufficient to "grant" that citizenship? Or are there actual executive orders to point to that embody this alleged "grant?"
The mother and father are either citizens, or not.
You don't seem to realize that's circular.
Does a US birth certificate, by itself, prove citizenship? You yourself has argued that it does not, and you yourself have argued that this has been the case since the 39th Congress, if not earlier.
The US can revoke citizenship in very limited circumstances only.
But according to your own theory, nothing's being revoked. If your interpretation is correct, I never was a citizen, nor was my father, nor his ancestors.
Not granting it in the first place is different.
What's this granting event you speak of? You deny it's the birth certificate. So tell us, when and why did we get citizenship? Be precise.
OK, to be fair, your real argument is probably something less ridiculous but more authoritarian. An idea that the president can change the naturalization law by declaration.
"But according to your own theory, nothing's being revoked. If your interpretation is correct, I never was a citizen, nor was my father, nor his ancestors."
The U.S. can grant citizenship to whomever they want. They are not limited to the Constitutional minimum. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
I'm sure that when diplomats have children here, those babies get a birth certificate. I'm not an expert on this, but I don't think birth certificates are totally synonymous with citizenship, as you suggest.
"An idea that the president can change the naturalization law by declaration."
No, as explained above Trump cannot change any act of Congress, and I'm not certain whether this EO attempts to do that. If so, it is not valid.
The U.S. can grant citizenship to whomever they want.
So your claim is that... Trump is effectively "granting" citizenship to all the existing anchor babies born before Feb 19?
Huh. That seems like a political bombshell if ever there was one!
That is indeed true. But where did the U.S. do that? (Trump didn't — and can't — do so via executive order, so you need a statute.) You might cite 8 U.S.C. § 1401(a):
The problem with that is that I truncated the statute to make a point. What it actually says is
But if your contention is that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" in the 14th amendment excludes children of illegal aliens, then you would need to explain why that exact same language in the statute doesn't exclude those exact same people.
The US did that each time they considered someone a citizen beyond what is mandated by the citizenship clause. The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 would be just one example. Another time would be (b)-(h) of the statute you cite. I don't think (a) would be an example, as you said it should mean the same thing as the citizenship clause. By the way, the statute dates from 1952, some 80 years after the citizenship clause. Yet citizenships were humming along under the citizenship clause all that time before this statute.
"you would need to explain why that exact same language in the statute doesn't exclude those exact same people."
The position of Trump's EO seems to be that this exact same language in the statute does indeed exclude the exact same people, at least going forward. Why didn't it before, you ask? Because prior administrations did not choose to apply it in that way. And nobody challenged it, so that's how it was applied. If you were to challenge it now, after the fact, I assume it would be too late as to those persons, there are reliance interests, and citizenship was effectively granted, and having been granted cannot now be revoked. Alternatively, the statute did always exclude the exact same people, but again the statute appears to state a minimum standard, it only specifies a class of persons that are citizens, nowhere does it state, at least not in that section, that all others are not citizens.
The Indian Citizenship Act did not constitute the government "considering" someone a citizen; it constituted a statute conferring citizenship.
Once again, a statute, not mere consideration. The problem — to repeat — is that it doesn't confer citizenship on the people we're discussing. Not if Trump's interpretation of the 14th Amendment is correct. (If the statute did confer citizenship, note that Trump's EO would be illegal for that reason also.) It only confers citizenship on people "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" of the U.S., and Trump claims that these people aren't subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
That's not how it works. The executive branch cannot grant citizenship by misinterpreting a statute. The statute obviously didn't change meaning suddenly on January 20, 2025. (Or February 19.) If it doesn't confer citizenship now, it didn't before, and those people were never citizens. There is no citizenship by estoppel, no matter how much reliance there was. There are plenty of cases to that effect. One discussed here at the VC a few years ago was the case of Hodi Muthana, but I can cite others. If the person wasn't a citizen pursuant to the constitution or statute, the government mistakenly treating the person as one does not constitute "granting" her citizenship, which means that the government subsequently saying she isn't one doesn't "revoke" anything.
And for the avoidance of doubt:
No, it cites the standard. There is no other source for citizenship besides the constitution or statute. One cannot gain legal citizenship simply by being treated as one.
The fact remains that the EO by its terms does not apply to people who are born prior to 2/19/25. Somin's commentary is low IQ propaganda and scare mongering.
Meanwhile, your legal argument that "no, it has to be fully retroactive or not at all!" can be attempted but I doubt it will gain any traction except as the transparent poison pill effort it is.
Statutes are routinely interpreted one way, and then later interpreted in a different way, and the change isn't generally retroactive. Vartelas v. Holder for example recognized presumptions against retroactivity and reliance interests in the immigration context. Statutes also routinely give discretion to the executive to decide things. Honestly, are you really arguing that there is no executive discretion in making determinations related to citizenship? Not to mention in the broader context of immigration, treaties, and so on.
This is just an attempt to scare monger and side step the constitutional issue.
Er, the government doesn't "grant citizenship" to its natural born citizens. If the text of the 14th Amendment is to be believed, all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, simply are citizens of the United States. A birth certificate is a recognition of birth, not a granting of citizenship.
Accordingly, if someone who believes they are a US citizen, based on having been born in the USA (and being subject to the jurisdiction thereof) turns out to have been wrong about that, that person simply is not a US citizen--and never was a US citizen--regardless of what the "effective date" in any Trumperverse Executive Order might be.
Unlike mere federal laws passed by Congress and signed by the President, Trump can't simply disapply the 14th Amendment by Executive Order and permit people who were born with US citizenship prior to February 2025 to remain in the country without documentation, if the 14th Amendment means what he says it means.
(Unless he gives the 'ol Roman "thumb's up" signal, of course!)
As explained in my prior comment above, the original meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clearly meant a "full and complete" jurisdiction that excluded anyone who owed any foreign allegiance (or even allegiance to a quasi-foreign such as Indian tribes).
This definition of "jurisdiction" incorporated things that Congress would have the power to define to some extent, for example, through international treaties and through naturalization laws and laws recognizing the natural right of expatriation.
The citizenship clause is a Constitutional minimum, not a maximum. It appears a bureaucratic practice of considering almost anyone born on US soil as a citizen started around the 1960s. Maybe it was a bureaucratic interpretation of the citizenship clause, I suppose. Either way, those people were recognized as citizens, and they have reliance interests, and were effectively granted citizenship. Congress passed a law mirroring the clause, and the executive carried it out as they saw fit. And the executive can still do that.
clearly!
Has it occurred to you that you might be misinterpreting the phrase "owes allegiance to a foreign power?" It seems quite natural to interpret that phrase to cover the three known exceptions -- Indians, diplomats, and occupying forces -- and no one else. Especially not asylum-seeking illegal immigrants!
So the Trump EO adds some more exceptions to a vague clause.
Note that the 14th amendment doesn't say one word about "allegiance" anyway. It used the term "jurisdiction." Those are two different words. I know there's a single quote from the congressional debates where someone said "allegiance," but that's not what was enacted. And jurisdiction means subject to the laws.
"I know there's a single quote"
Do you ever get tired of lying? There are many quotes about allegiance, and about being "subject to" a foreign power which is the same thing, as opposed to being subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
None of this would matter if people couldn't show up at the border, make a fraudulent asylum claim, and be released into the United States.
It's outrageous that anyone thinks a child of such a person should get automatic citizenship.
You missed the entire point of this post. Go read it again.
In the 14th A., sec. 1, the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" piece applies both to "people born" and to "people ... naturalized".
How can a person "naturalized" in the United States NOT be subject to its jurisdiction?
There are no undocumented immigrants. Immigrants are people with naturalization papers. They are all documented.
As a relative expert on the English language, I can tell you that "Immigrant" is an unqualified term with no legal connotation. Or, IOW, you're wrong.
See also UNRWA's definition of "refugee".
No; those are citizens, you moron. Immigrants are people who moved to the United States.
EDIT: That could be read as me suggesting that citizens and immigrants are not overlapping categories. Just to be clear, that is not what I meant. What I meant was that an immigrant is anyone who moves to the U.S., while someone "with naturalization papers" is a citizen. Schlafly doesn't appear to know what "naturalization" means. Many people are residents here — legally — without naturalization papers because they are not citizens.
No, an immigrants is not just someone comes to the USA. Tourists, temporary workers, illegals, invaders, and others come to the USA, unless they are part of some process to make them citizens or permanent residents.
"Moved." Moved. Not came. What is wrong with you?
I didn't say "comes" to the US; I said moves to the US.
Illegal immigrants are permanent residents. They may not be lawful permanent residents, but the very fact that such a term exists implies the existence of unlawful permanent residents.
Trump answered a question that I never thought I had: How quickly can a president do an impeachable offense after inauguration?
Ordering the executive branch to violate the Constitution qualifies.
He's going for three!
Followup! Followup!
"How long will it take before you think Republicans will care about the Constitution to impeach him for it?"
Our nation teeters on the brink of violent self-destruction.
Sorry Illlllllllllllya. You are of course wrong as usual. Birthright citizenship is prohibited by the Constituion. "Subject to the Jurisdiction" is pretty darn clear, and babies born of two illegal immigrants aren't.
Please go back to the Reason side.
It's a pretty safe bet that this stands no chance at SCOTUS.
That is what we thought about the immunity case when Trump first brought up the argument. We were wrong. I suspect the court will uphold it.
Randal...Is it? Many (Somin, Baude) said much the same thing about the CO case and 14A-S3. An obvious slam dunk for SCOTUS.
Except it wasn't a slam dunk. Are you really so sure?
[This space for rent]
The CO case was obviously not a slam dunk. Many of us thought that it should be a slam dunk, because the actual constitutional questions are obvious, but we knew that SCOTUS would do everything it could to keep Trump on the ballot, and they didn't disappoint. Or they did, depending on how you look at it I guess.
I don't think the political motives are strong enough here to get SCOTUS to issue an(other) obviously anti-constitutional outcome-oriented opinion. You'll get Alito and maybe Kavanaugh and maybe Thomas, but that's it.
One problem is that the EO doesn't even try to be legal, as Ilya points out. It would have a better chance if it were cast as a plausible interpretation of the Constitution rather than a partisan policy wet dream.
Oh. Replies actually aren't working. I was like... how do we all keep fucking this up? Reason being a shit site, is the inevitable answer.
Neither Somin nor Baude — nor, I think, any other serious legal analyst — ever made such a prediction about the disqualification suit. About immunity, yes. About disqualification, no. Don't confuse statements about how the court should rule with predictions about how they would rule.
Molly Godiva, I'm not as pessimistic.
The SC has made innumerable decisions where a guilty person gets off the hook because the SC believes, rightly or wrongly, that it's necessary in order to protect some more important constitutional value. Making sure the guilty get punished isn't our highest priority.
To put it more briefly, yeah, Trump was probably guilty, so was Miranda.
The birthright citizenship case is in a different category. Trump is trying to take citizenship and with it all their civil liberties, from a large group of people who haven't committed any crime at all. He's also attacking the prerogatives of Congress and the courts. He's going beyond interpreting a law, he's fabricated dates out of thin air and created categories of people with no authorization to do so.
My optimistic guess: 1 or 2 votes at most to uphold the whole thing.
(This reply thing really sucks).
I will be very surprised if they uphold it.
If they adhered to original meaning, then they would uphold it.
But there's something called "fainthearted" originalism for a reason.
Let's set everything else aside: who do you think would be more likely to have a clear understanding of the meaning of the words chosen in 1868: Supreme Court justices in 1898, or Internet randos in 2024?
I am going with the internet randos. That 1898 decision did not consider the scenarios in Trump's EO, or the alien crisis that the USA faces today.
"Supreme Court justices in 1898, or Internet randos in 2024?"
Good question, Mr. Internet rando.
A better question is Supreme Court justices in 1873, or Supreme Court justices in 1898? As it turns out, the former were more likely to have a clear understanding of the words chosen in 1868! 1898 wasn't too bad either, with four out of five understanding it pretty well. What you're missing though is that it doesn't matter for purposes of this EO since the EO conforms to WKA.
An "alien crisis" — which does not exist — cannot change the meaning of the constitution.