The Volokh Conspiracy
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"'Nobody Was Tricked into Voting for Trump': Why the Disinformation Panic Is Over"
An interesting article in Politico.eu (Laurie Clarke). A few excerpts:
"Everyone [following the 2016 Trump victory and the UK Brexit vote] was saying technology is to blame," said Reece Peck, associate professor of journalism and political communication at the City University of New York. "These algorithms are to blame."
What followed was almost a decade of alarm over disinformation, with legislators agonizing over which ideas social media platforms should allow to propagate, and hand-wringing at how this was all irrevocably corroding the foundations of society.
A vibrant cottage industry — dubbed "Big Disinfo" — sprang up to fight back against bad information. NGOs poured money into groups pledging to defend democracy against merchants of mistruth, while fact-checking operations promised to patrol the boundaries of reality.
Not everyone was convinced of the threat, however….
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It's like the "opinions vary about the shape of the earth" thing. If only one side is doing disinformation, pretending there are no partisan implications to dealing with disinformation is silly.
"If only one side is doing disinformation..."
Let me guess. It's the other side? So "dealing with disinformation" is just shutting up the other side?
Of course that's what he means. Scratch a Lefty, find a tyrant they always say.
Interesting. You're saying the GOP is behind the recent bout of misinformation regarding Mangione's judge? I would not have expected shadowy MAGA forces to have infiltrated the Daily Beast and placed misleading headlines over sensationalized stories (see, e.g., https://www.thedailybeast.com/luigi-mangione-judge-katharine-h-parker-married-to-former-healthcare-exec-bret-parker/).
(For those out of the loop, a Magistrate Judge assigned to the Mangione case is married to a former Pfizer exec, which is not a real conflict.)
Is it an effort to destabilize our nation's institutional trust? Yes. Is it as serious as MAGA's efforts? No. Is it disinformation? Absolutely. And it's just the most recent major example I've noticed. A lot of anti-vax, anti-modern medicine, and anti-nuke lies came out of the left. The right is a bigger problem, but that doesn't mean nothing else matters.
I don't know what the solution is. I do know that the solution is not giving myself a frontal fucking lobotomy, or engaging a nihilistic campaign of opposition to everything, or agreeing that facts are what is good for the cause and falsity is what is bad for the cause.
It's even less of one than you think, since MJ Parker (an excellent judge, by the way) isn't the magistrate assigned to the case; she just handled the arraignment.
Well, it's not really less of a conflict. It's the same amount either way.
Well, okay, it can't be less than zero, so you're technically correct ("the best kind of correct.")
Yes!
Martin, the claim that only one-side is doing disinformation is absurd. The American public was treated to a fountain of half truths from both right and left about Mr Biden's cognitive and physical decline over the past four years.
If I look back on comments here, I see plenty of exaggerations and corresponding self-delusions about Biden's condition.
We now know that the half-truths were accompanied by an outright cover-up.
What we see in general is that the public has been showing an increased appetite for mis- and dis- information to bolster the basis of their confirmation biases.
What is silly is your implication that the practice is a predominately right-wing phenomenon.
I think we're all still suffering a hangover from 2015 thru around 2022 when misinformation was overwhelmingly right-wing. (Birtherism, Russian trolls, climate denial, anti-vax, qanon, pizzagate, general anti-science attitudes like flat-earthers, probably a buch of other stuff I'm forgetting. [edit] Oh yeah, election denial!)
It seems like the right has come a bit back down to earth, although there are still some occasional flare-ups like pet-eating, so we'll see.
If only one side is doing disinformation
You mean...like you just did there?
Seriously? There's a difference between someone saying something you don't like and someone accusing the prime minister of the UK of being in league with entirely fictitious immigrant paedophile grooming gangs.
"“·Be careful of [Beware of; Watch out for] false prophets. They come to you ·looking gentle like sheep [disguised like sheep; L in sheep’s clothing], but ·they are really dangerous like wolves [L underneath/inwardly they are ravenous/vicious/ferocious wolves]. 16 You will know these people by ·what they do [L their fruit]. ·Grapes don’t come [L Can you pick grapes…?] from thornbushes, ·and figs don’t come from [L and figs from…?] ·thorny weeds [thistles]. 17 In the same way, every ·good [healthy; sound] tree produces good fruit, but a ·bad [rotten; diseased] tree produces bad fruit. "
?
If the grooming gang is real, will the Prime Minister's command make it fictitious?
“grooming”
The call is coming from inside the House!!!
Ok, fair enough— Gaetz resigned
Another Rotherham denialist? Color me un-shocked.
No denial or affirmation here— I’m not steeped enough to offer an opinion. I will note that groomer panic seems selective.
If by "selective" you mean viewing as fundamentally different classes of concern 1) partying/sleeping with someone a few weeks/months shy of 18 who is enthusiastically participating and may not have been entirely honest about her age, and 2) kidnapping, gang-raping, impregnating, and forcibly injecting with drugs 12-15 year olds, then sign me up as being pretty damn "selective" indeed.
Your apparently blase bucketing of the two is, quite frankly, disturbing. Do you have children?
“Disturbing”
Wow, slicing the salami pretty thin here, aren’t we? How long have you been minimizing grooming? The guy was supposed to be AG!
“Good lunch table at Pace HS today!” Google the picture if you dare.
Ah, so you're not only doubling down on your original sociopath-worthy, shoulder-shrugging indifference to kidnapping, gang-raping, impregnating, and forcibly injecting with drugs 12-15 year olds, you're now tripling down by ALSO trying to equate it with taking a photograph of fully-clothed individuals standing next to each other in a public place during a public event.
Again: Do you have children?
“shoulder-shrugging”
As I said originally, I am not marinating in very-online right wing discourse habitually, so I don’t know enough about what you are referring to to have a public opinion. Certainly, what you are describing sounds bad— although I’m not sure taking as gospel truth right wing twitter as related by Brian is necessarily the path to enlightenment. Can’t they both be bad? You seem to be arguing not.
As for shoulder shrugging indifference, perhaps you should clean up your side of the street first? Only one person here is minimizing grooming here. Six months of “pedo Joe” and all of a sudden this perv gets nominated for AG and it’s “consensual” “clothed” “almost 18” “enthusiastically” etc etc. Care to share with the class how you think “enthusiasm” plays into the age of consent? And what does being clothed have to do with it, btw?
I am not in the habit of sharing personal details with mouth-breathers on the internet… are you? Something about Bernstein threatening to call my employer really sharpened the mind, you know?
If you're really that ignorant of the allegations across the pond (and can't be bothered to... how did that go? "Google [it] if you dare"), you might have thought twice about wading in with whataboutery so inapposite it should be embarrassing.
I'd of course want neither to befall my children, but scrambling to find some other common space on the Venn diagram feels like a really weak motte/bailey play. You offered something sketchy as supposedly comparable to something utterly depraved. They're just not even close, and in my view that's even potentially unclear only to people who don't have kids or shouldn't have had them.
Utterly non-identifying details that are directly relevant to the discussion at hand? Certainly. I of course wouldn't offer their names, ages, or any other specific information about them, but I do have children and have said so repeatedly over the years.
No, I can't say I know that it sharpened your mind at all if you truly think the answer to a yes/no question about prodigy puts you in any danger whatsoever of being personally identified. I'm going to bet a few shekels you don't really think that, and simply don't want to answer the question.
Whatabouttery is what YOU are doing.
As I said— groomer panic seems very selective based on who is perpetrating. Your response is to excuse the obviously predatory Gatez conduct by pointing to some other right wing cause celebre du jour that in your telling is worse. That is classic what-about. Three posts here excusing this shitstain of a human who very nearly was the chief law enforcement officer of this entire country! But what about England, you ask? Sounds awful, and I’m content to leave it at that… if you want to spend your days getting all upset by Elon’s algorithms— be my guest. There’s lots of badness in the world, to paraphrase Judge Smails.
You didn’t answer my question about enthusiasm and age of consent. Any thoughts?
"As I said— groomer panic seems very selective based on who is perpetrating. "
And your apologism seems to disregard the nature of the perpetration, equating consensual sex with an almost-18 year old to forcible rape of a twelve year old. This is morally depraved.
"Care to share with the class how you think “enthusiasm” plays into the age of consent?"
Huh? Who said it did?
And again, you get that you're referring to concern about the drugging and rape of 12-year old as "groomer panic", right?
Brian did. He minimized the conduct because he says the victim was “enthusiastic” … among other things.
That's laughably backwards. Even though it's right there for all to read, for convenience I'm going to relink to the top post in thread in the thread raising the European debacle, which you responded to with your "oooh, but Matt Gaetz" whataboutery.
Nor am I going to further entertain your distractive efforts to drill down into that whataboutery, particularly after your flip "sounds awful, and I’m content to leave it at that" about the European situation. I already agreed that what Gaetz is alleged to have done was bad and not something I would want to happen to one of my kids, but that has no bearing at all on my point that I've clearly expressed from the beginning of this exchange: the worst allegations about Gaetz (which you yourself accurately if unintentionally level-set via your "oooh, he took a selfie at a high school" offering) are in an utterly different class than what is widely reported to have happened and still be happening to small children in Europe. That you try to recast what should be quite uncontroversial reality as "slicing the baloney thinly" &c. is, once again, quite disturbing.
As far as I can tell, everybody agrees that the child abuse in Rotherham is a huge problem.
But the reason the right fell in love with the story is that they're trying to blame Pakistani immigrants.
It seems, though, that as usual, it's mainly white guys doing the grooming.
That's the selective painc that Estragon is talking about. Pakistani immigrants? Everyone must be made aware of this urgent problem! Oh, it turned out to be white guys again? Never mind.
"Brian did. He minimized the conduct because he says the victim was “enthusiastic” … among other things."
If a 17 year old victim is enthusiastic, the conduct sounds much more minimal than conduct that targets a 12-year-old unenthusiastic victim. It's disgusting that you disagree.
Randal, it does not "seem" that it's mainly white guys doing the grooming, and that's not what Estragon is saying. Other than that, great comment!
In yo' mama's face, tiny pianist!
You're throwing an outlier report in my mama's face?
In the future, please reserve better quality analysis for my mama's face.
And in any event, that's not what Estragon was referring to, as he acknowledges he hasn't kept up on the specifics of the case. He was, as I said above, equating the behavior by the Rotherham grooming gang to that by Gaetz.
So you agree -- and have yourself demonstrated -- there's selective panic based on whether the perpetrators are white. Matt Gaetz is white. Maybe that's why you're minimizing his crimes.
(Also: not an outlier study. The main, comprehensive study.)
I though the significance of Rotherham, at least as far as our domestic politics are concerned, was as an existence proof of government conspiracies. "Hey, look, just because somebody says the government is engaged in a decades long conspiracy to conceal some big scandal doesn't mean they're wrong!"
Now, every time somebody alleges governmental elites are engaged in a coverup, and is accused of being a conspiracy theorist, they can just say, "Rotherham", and you're forced to demonstrate that they're wrong, not just assume it.
Now, every time somebody alleges governmental elites are engaged in a coverup, and is accused of being a conspiracy theorist, they can just say, "Rotherham", and you're forced to demonstrate that they're wrong, not just assume it.
Haha good luck with that!
Let's give it a shot actually!
Did you know that the bulk ok Trump's incoming cabinet (the millionaire / billionaire ones) met in secret along with Musk and Vance to set plans for invoking the 25th on Jan 20? The recent Musk / MAGA dustup has them worried that Trump will end up siding with MAGA and turning on Musk (who, let's be honest, is the ultimate globalist). These cabinet members are firmly on Musk's side (along with Vance, who, recall, was Musk's entrypoint into MAGA in the first place). So expect a quick, legal coup right after inauguration!
Ok Brett, "Rotherham!" I said the magic word, now take it away! Demonstrate that I'm wrong!
“Rotherdam”
It’s another one of these talismanic horses? Is that right? Lemme guess— you’re on elons’s side?
It's a city where a bunch of young girls were raped. People criticizing the rapes is what you're referring to as "groomer panic."
Just disgusting.
Sounds terrible. Glad you’re on the front lines, raising awareness!!!
Somebody has to. As I pointed out below, the first person in the British government that tried to "raise awareness" was sent to DEI training.
“Somebody has to”
The footloose footlong modern internet martyr! Is it possible you’re taking yourself a little too seriously?
I should dunk all over your face footlong— but you’re a longtimer around here and for that I salute you. It can’t be easy defending ed and Brett and all the other dead-enders. Carry on
"I should dunk all over your face footlong..."
An...internet basketball player.
Sorry you're back to cruising Chuck E Cheese for dates.
And Rotherham is fictitious? Wait, is it your side doing the disinformation?
Entirely fictitious? Not according to the BBC:
"In her independent review of the Rotherham case, published in 2014, Prof Alexis Jay concluded that the majority of "known perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage" including five men convicted in 2010.
Greater Manchester Police identified the men convicted at the trial in the Rochdale abuse scandal in February 2012 as British Pakistani.
The Telford abusers were men of "southern Asian heritage", according to anindependent inquiry carried out into the case."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65174096
The BBC is an expert on Grooming gangs cause they had their own cohort of them.
https://x.com/bayonetbastard/status/1875244627193950280?t=6pLgKrzyIkL0XT0usYQvmw&s=19
Quit trying to spread your own disinformation.
That anti-Muslim propaganda misinformation illegal speech.
They'll arrest you in Britainstan if you enter there.
Yup. A Home Office researcher who tried to report the abuse was sent to DEI training.
You're taking issue with "entirely fictitious immigrant paedophile grooming gangs.' Which, fair enough it totally happened.
But you're trying to prove the immigrant thing by pointing out Pakistani and southern Asian heritage.
Believe it or not nonwhites get to be British citizens too.
Maybe they are immigrants, but 1) you haven't established that, and 2) the wiki on it calls them Pakistani-British.
Sealioning.
If I bought you a beach ball would you balance it on your nose?
Believe it or not, all cultures are not equal. Some put high value on objectifying women and regard them as nothing more than property.
The issue with Kaz's post was his thesis is supported entirely by equating not being white with being an immigrant. Which is white nationalism, actually.
Your argument that we should prejudging people based on equating color of skin with culture manages to be yet worse, though!
Treat people like individuals, not stereotypes, you bigoted jerk.
Swing, and a miss!
Poor Sarc!
LMAO
"white nationalism"
This is your new hobby horse. When one sees IRA-sympathizers and Protestants marching together in solidarity in Northern Ireland. There is far more at play than your "white nationalism."
Try to suppress your confirmation biases.
No, it's Kaz's new thing.
Stick to what I'm criticizing in his post. Glossing over the difference between immigrant and "southern Asian heritage" is a fucking huge tell.
Someone's never spent any time in Europe.
No, I see you using this as a blanket criticism of people's ideas all the time. You're just wiggling and squirming. Man up next time.
I'm sure you do, Don.
"You're taking issue with "entirely fictitious immigrant paedophile grooming gangs.' Which, fair enough it totally happened."
I'm glad we established which side is doing disinformation.
"entirely fictitious immigrant paedophile grooming gangs"
Fictitious, because 'grooming' is a euphemism and it's really raping gangs?
"This has resulted in the field's "inadvertent tendency to take sides in the polarized political debates it attempts to study" and the "asymmetrical pathologization of what we, the researchers, consider to be false beliefs.""
Like heck it was inadvertent. The field of 'disinformation' was created to take sides.
Yes I got a 2 by 4 across the temple there too.
It’s inadvertent Jim, but not as we know it.
With the rapid advances in AI tools, we have not seen anything yet.
^ X1000
Yes.
Agreed. Alas.
Somewhere in hell, Goebbels is slowly, sadly, shaking his head and muttering "Damn, I was just a rookie".
It was all Leni Riefenstahl, "Olympia" still holds up 80 years later (Like with "The Godfather" "2" is better)
"What an excellent article," is something I never imagined I'd say about anything in Politico, but perhaps Politico Europe, something I never knew existed, is a different animal.
My answer to, "What should the government do about misinformation?" has always been, in general, "nothing", particularly as the government has always been the greatest purveyor of misinformation. If someone is more inclined to believe something from a random social media account than an official statement from the government, that is more a failure of government than anything else.
After the 2016 election, the Left engaged in a four-year unremitting campaign of questioning and undermining the legitimacy of that election. Then, when Donald Trump questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election, the Left pivoted on a dime to declare that questioning election outcomes was a grave threat to democracy. It really was a "We have always been at war with Eastasia" moment they apparently thought no one would notice. (My position is that anyone is free to question the legitimacy of the 2016, 2020, or any other election without "threatening democracy" or being subject to indictment.)
I too hope that the 2024 election results prove that the misinformation fever that swept the country has finally broken.
I heard that federal agents even committed crimes to undermine the legitimacy of the 2016 election.
Yes, that was Kevin Clinesmith.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2021/12/16/from-the-i-dont-understand-this-at-all-files-2/
"After the 2016 election, the Left engaged in a four-year unremitting campaign of questioning and undermining the legitimacy of that election."
No it did not. I certainly missed the part about storming the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2017.
Nope. Never happened. No one ever questioned the legitimacy of the 2016 election. That's just "misinformation", to coin a phrase.
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
There was plenty of "illegitimate!", by way of popular vs. EC, but, aside from a statement or two, no serious, concerted effort to beat the fraud drum, unlike Trump & friends from 2020 on.
Just 8 years of Roosh-Un Collusion Bullshit
"no serious, concerted effort to beat the fraud drum"
This is a false statement.
Citation please.
This is another hobby horse of the self-deluded. You have an internet search engine. Use it.
Capt. Dan is too busy muting people and mourning the apparent demise of Today in Supreme Court History.
You’re asking me to scour the internet for something I am saying doesn’t exist?
FWIW, I plugged "questioned the legitimacy of the 2016 election" into duckduckgo. Couple of links from the first page of results:
LA Times
NPR
CNN
civicsnation.org, whoever that is.
You can consider these obscure nut cases from dodgy sources, of course; my point is that scouring the internet only took one search.
I am perfectly aware of the nut cases, and I don't pay attention to dodgy sources.
This is not relevant to the point at issue -- whether there was a "serious, concerted effort". Most of the Republican Party followed their leader in believing that the 2020 election was "stolen", a position which had no facts to support it. There was nothing comparable to that on the Democratic side after the 2016 election. This is not a matter for debate.
Yes, there was.
I detail it here.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-you-think-Trump-won-in-2024/answer/Michael-Ejercito
Your whole narrative is based around a single survey question. No actual statements or actions by anybody. Sorry, that's not a "serious, concerted effort to beat the fraud drum." It's not even a casual, half-assed effort to toot the fraud piccolo.
I wonder who you guys are trying to convince. Each other I guess? Do you even actually believe it yourselves?
Let's not forget Hillary claiming Trump is an illegitimate president.
Hillary conceeded immediately and didn't even mount a challenge, let alone an insurrection.
How can you stand being so idiotic, tiny pianist.
"Illegitimate" has a broad meaning that includes duly elected officials if those officials have lost the support of the mainstream. Like, illegitimate children are still children. An illegitimate President is still President.
Hillary, through her campaign manager John Podesta, called for an unprecedented intelligence briefing of the Electoral College.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
What was the Electoral College supposed to do with the information from the intelligence briefing?
So? You bring this up all the time, as if it were evidence of something. Buy you're allowed to try to convince voters, even EC voters, to vote for your candidate. It has nothing to do with fraud.
Moreover, it's not even true. What actually happened was that some Electors asked for an intelligence briefing, and Podesta put out a press release supporting their request.
To be sure, the subtext was that Electors might not want to vote for Trump, but — as you say — trying to convince people how to vote is not the same as claiming there was fraud and that Trump didn't really get the votes at all.
Krayt,
You make a false comparison. That is a sophistry.
That Trump may have dome worse (or much worse) does not negate the claim that the left operationally tried to deny the results of the 2016 election and to undermine the authority of the elected president.
the left operationally tried to deny the results of the 2016 election
Operationally, eh?
There is no equivalence here, and your weasel word here shows you know it.
It was no weasel word, and YOU know it.
C'mon. The bullshit "resistance" started before day 1 as did the whining about the EC.
Wow, you really cannot even be honest with yourself. You just can't accept that others don't see the world through your distorted lenses.
It sure is. You can't just say denied flat out, which is why you added operationally. It's there to bridge between wrong and likely wrong depending on what you mean by operationally.
I was around in 2016. No one thought they were going to deny Trump his Presidency.
You can keep accusing me of lying to myself and bad faith and whatnot, but that's all lazy; ad hominem in place of actual argumentation.
The Clinton campaign tried to.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
John Podesta, the Hillary Clinton campaign chairman whose Gmail account was reputed to have been successfully “phished” by fearsome Russian “hackers,” issued a statement demanding that electors be granted an unheard-of “intelligence briefing” — with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright.
Hahahaha there's nothing wrong with trying to convince the electors to vote for your candidate, dumdum. That's not fraud, it's campaigning. Omg you guys are too stupid to live without the protection of a welfare state like America to support you.
There's nothing wrong with trying to convince electors to vote for your candidate when they're legally obligated to vote for the other candidate?
Whatever, dumdum.
It was wrong (though not a crime) to ask intelligence agencies to brief the Electoral College.
It was wrong (though not a crime) to ask intelligence agencies to brief the Electoral College.
Why?
Because they had nothing legitimate, nothing legal, that they could do with the information. And you're not supposed to be handing out intelligence briefings for shits and giggles.
Since they had no legitimate use for the information, and yet it was proposed to give it to them anyway, by process of elimination it was to be given to them to be put to illegitimate use.
IOW, the Clinton campaign was proposing it in a last ditch effort to encourage enough Trump electors to be unfaithful to make her President.
So, yeah, Clinton didn't really give up and accept that she'd lost, she was still scheming to achieve a post-election victory by illegal means.
They had a legitimate, and in many / most cases, legal use for the information (totally legal federally).
You're just arguing against the EC at this point. Fine, but that's the same kind of thing as arguing against gerrymandering. Gerrymandering doesn't make elections illegitimate, nor does the EC.
In other words, don't hate the player (Podesta), hate the game (EC & faithless electors).
Who said they were legally obligated? Many states have no such laws. And even with respect to the states that did, as of December 2016 there was strong doubts about whether those laws were constitutional; it wasn't until July 2020 that SCOTUS said that they were.
She was asking intelligence agencies to insert themselves into a political campaign, let alone a Presidential political campaign
Interligence agencies are not supposed tp be involved in election campaigns.
Intelligence agencies are the ones responsible for not inserting themselves into presidential campaigns, not John Podesta. And they appropriately declined his idea.
Which is ironic considering how heavily the FBI had been involved prior to the election... on Trump's behalf! One of the best explanations for Trump's late surge was James Comey's October Surprise Hillary Public Bitchslap. I assume you have no problem with that though, somehow.
1) She was not, as noted above.
2) It's telling that you think that hearing about Trump's dealings with Russia would have convinced people not to vote for him.
She was not, as noted above.
John Podesta was not merely some envelope licker for the Clinton campaign.
That's true — though the fact that one of Trump's 2016 campaign managers was a Russian asset doesn’t seem to have dissuaded anyone from arguing that Trump himself didn't collude with Russia — but the distinction between Podesta and Hillary was not the point I was raising. What I was raising was that Podesta didn't do what you claim. Electors asked for an intelligence briefing, and all Podesta did was say, in essence, that it was a good idea and that if they wanted it they should get it.
Intelligence agents, if not their agencies, had already inserted themselves into the political campaign. Remember the 51 agents that signed a letter asserting _falsely_ that Hunter Biden's laptop was fake?
I used operationally specifically BECAUSE with no way to prevent his inauguration the left sought to impede any and all actions of the Trump administration even before he took office.
That was operationally trying to deny the results of the election.
You knew that was exactly what I was saying.
Yes, that is why I accuse you of intellectual dishonesty. It is you who are lazy with your dishonest snark; and that is very common for offenders to accuse others of their very sin.
Don, do you know how ridiculous you sound? You just said exactly what Sarcastr0's been suggesting! By "operationally" you mean "not actually questioning the election at all, just attempting to push back against its impact." In other words, garden variety obstructionism.
What a self-deluded nutcase you've become! Put down the right-wing power-juice, take a deep breath, and try to return to your senses!
They objected to certification of the EC results in 2017. (Including people like Jamie Raskin and Bennie Thompson.) Actually, they've done so each of the last three times Republicans won. Maybe they won't do it this time, who knows.
There was a lot of rioting in DC after the 2016 election, including on Inauguration Day 2017. It just wasn't news that's fit to print.
Irresponsible in retrospect, but partisan performance is not questioning the legitimacy of the election. There was no danger that the election wouldn't be certified.
For a comparison, check out what Trump did. Both on the day of the election's certification and for years.
Right up until the election he won in 2024.
Sarcastro: Our questioning the legitimacy of the election doesn't count because it was performative!
Well, yeah. It makes a big difference. Performative murder might be a bit distasteful, but it's sure as shit less bad than actual murder or even attempted murder!
If you're a murderer and your big defense is that some other dude did a performative murder and nobody cared about that... I mean, do you think that's a serious defense, or laughably stupid?
It certainly is true that Mr. Trump has never said the he admitted both the legitimacy and the result of the 2020 election
"Irresponsible in retrospect"
Talk about weasel words.
No, those words are clear. No weaseling - irresponsible, but didn't seem like it at the time.
Operationally? Not clear. Allows weaseling.
Now that you know what weasel words means; hopefully you will avoid them and make accusations that are more on point.
HaHaha.
I don't know who is "like" Bennie Thompson, but the actual Bennie Thompson did no such thing. The individuals who objected in 2017 — not "they" — were Raskin, Jayapal, McGovern, Lee, Jackson Lee, Grijalva, and Waters. (In other words, generally speaking the who's who of the far left in Congress.) While it was inappropriate, this was entirely performative; Hillary wasn't supporting it and the ones doing it did not actually think they were going to change the outcome. (And of course Biden immediately shut them down.)
The recently deceased Jimmy Carter said that Trump lost the 2016 election.
in his defense he had Brain metastases from Melanoma.
Of course, there is indeed plenty of falsehood (deliberate and otherwise) online and offline, as the article notes. Rather, the article and some of the sources it quotes question whether the recent focus on "disinformation" and "misinformation" has been an effective way of dealing with such falsehood.
How do we know that we can trust those sources, though??? Or the people that wrote that article??? Maybe they are spreading misinformation!!!!!!
The focus on 'disinformation' wasn't intended to deal with falsehood. If it had been, they'd have just said "falsehood".
It was intended to deal with speech those in power wanted to suppress, regardless of whether it was true.
You use words. You know that difference between disinformation and just lying/falsehood is the broadcast component.
Your crusade against disinformation is transparent.
You have recently asserted that Dems are taking over the military to use it against domestic enemies, and Trump's 2020 loss was not legally legitimate, and that you weren't a birther.
Luckily, VC doesn't have the breadth. None of that is disinformation, just falsehood.
Your constant fan fictioning is pretty sad though.
I know that the difference between disinformation and falsehood is that the former is frequently true. That all 'disinformation' means in the end is "stuff I'd like to censor".
Brett: "Disinformation is frequently true."
Can't make this stuff up, folks!
You don't have to. Sarcastro claimed several times, without evidence, that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. And it turned out to be true.
Indeed.
https://nypost.com/2024/10/30/opinion/facebooks-reaction-to-hunter-biden-laptop-story-shows-fbi-uses-disinformation-as-a-weapon/
Disinformation is definitionally false. People can be wrong about whether something is or isn't disinformation in exactly the same way that someone can be wrong about whether or not something is false.
Here's you:
If you want to argue that the concept of disinformation can be abused by mislabeling truth as disinformation, then, you know, do that. But it doesn't mean that actual disinformation doesn't exist. It's really just the modern term for propaganda which better captures the viral nature of modern communication channels.
"Disinformation is definitionally false."
Then you guys should stop using the term to refer to stuff that's true.
Thanks for finally following my advice.
You're the guy who said that publishing accurate crime records could be 'disinformation'. You keep trying to claim 'disinformation' is always false, then including accurate information that would lead to WrongThink.
Publishing only black crimes is using confirmation bias to push a false narrative.
You don't understand this only because you don't want to understand.
Because you love to gobble up disinformation. When you're not generating it yourself for your own internal consumption.
How many white girls were raped by black males last year?
How many Black males were killed by White cops last year?
You are illustrating Sarcast0's point for him. Accurate data without context can paint a really ugly picture if that is one's goal.
No, I understand that quite well, I just don't CARE what your excuse for censoring the truth is.
"We can't let the truth be told when it might lead to wrong conclusions!"? Seriously, screw that. I will never agree to that.
I see. You have a definition of disinformation that is 'censorable speech.'
Those are 2 different sets.
I'm saying that IS the functional definition, no matter what people dishonestly claim it is: The only defining trait of 'disinformation' is that the person using the term wants it suppressed.
We get it, Brett. You don't like that things you believe to be true are viewed as blatantly false by your political opponents. And since so many of those things are provably false, you want to change the meaning of "disinformation" to feed the right's (and your) persecution complex.
To make what you are doing even more clear, note how the term "fake news" changed. You probably didn't follow the link I posted, so I'll summarize. In 2016, some social media researchers found a couple Eastern European teens creating actual fake news stories with outrageous headlines and then sharing them on Facebook. The point was to try and get them to go viral and generate ad revenue. They probably didn't even care or know much about US politics, it was just a money-making scheme to them.
Hillary apparently used the term "fake news", talking about that kind of clear disinformation, but of course Trump would turn it to mean any reporting that made him look bad.
Yes, the Black crime data ought to be published along with other data about Blacks. Otherwise the crime data is hard to believe.
'That all 'disinformation' means in the end is "stuff I'd like to censor".' And, at least in American politics, no one tries to censor what they can disprove.
Brett,
The long understood and accepted meaning of "disinformation" is: deliberate falsehood(s) spread for advantage against an opposing force. (Or, just Google the definition for yourself if you don't like my choice of words.) Often, this was governments of opposing nations seeking to fool the populace of their adversaries into acting against their own nation's best interests. Or even just to create confusion and weakness. Opposing political parties within a nation would find such tactics just as useful, though.
What you are saying is that "the left" has appropriated "disinformation" and "misinformation" (a closely related idea, but it has important distinctions from disinformation) to mean red-pilled "truth" that they don't want people to believe, or even to prevent people from hearing it. I find this interesting, because it brings to mind a term that was quickly taken from its original meaning and turned into something else entirely.
Ultimately, I think that your efforts to change the meaning of "disinformation", because you don't like how it has been used against things you claim to be true, are...well...dishonest.
Color me shocked. A paid troll being dishonest.
Looking back at the Cam-pain there's not a thing that comes to mind that I'd have Kums-a-lot do differently, except maybe get more Celebrity Endorsements.
In my opinion, "Big Disinfo" was from the first an entirely partisan response to losing an election. Still is, in fact. It's not like it's gone away, just the names have changed.
An under-reported story is how academia and the NGO community rushed to the trough to fill up on the millions being redirected towards "studying" the issue. No dollar was left on the table, of that you can be certain.
Do you think disinformation exists?
If so, are you against studying it?
Your revelation that science is funded is not really very sinister. Basic research is government funded across the world. Has been since the late 1800s when the modern state began to become a thing.
Let me quote an email to me this morning from an internationally recognized scientist in the field information theory:
"The harder problem is not the malicious generation of misinformation, but people's insatiable thirst for it. Like Cleopatra, misinformation makes hungry where she most satisfies."
Yes, the phenomenon and its psychological underpinning are worthy of study.
Some on here don't want to do that.
Russia is a great testbed to study disinformation techniques and their effects.
https://research.utk.edu/oried/2023/05/03/study-uncovers-effectiveness-of-russian-propaganda/
"Media consumption and technology choices, however, revealed trust in Russian media only for those whose cultural values and ideologies already aligned with Russia. The finding was especially true of deeply held cultural beliefs such as topics of national identity."
"Some on here don't want to do that."
I have noticed that.
As I said above, it will get much worse as falsified (or completely artificial images) become the norm. Visuals have much stronger immediate impact than long written diatribes.
I'm kind of an AI pessimist. Which makes me an AI problematization optimist.
That ability will happen, but slower than folks think. Give us time to adapt.
I'm reading up on this history of paypal, and their involvement in inventing captcha. Motivated by Russian credit card spoofing. We have miles to go on the tech development front.
Disinformation is just "stuff I disagree with" framed as an objective thing. No, I don't want politicians and bureaucrats spending a bunch of public money developing partisan propaganda.
The "article" - really an opinion-laden piece spinning comments from a wide array of people drawn from a variety of disciplines, not all of which seem actually relevant to the question - turns out to be more ambivalent than Eugene presents here. One "debunked" assertion - that it's not clear that Russian disinformation campaigns in 2016 swung enough voters to cause Trump to win that election - is taken (there and here) to portray the entire field as "dead." In fact (as the article begrudgingly indicates), it would be more accurate to say that the study of disinformation and misinformation campaigns on social media is still in its early stages, with researchers still trying to develop the right conceptual framework for studying the phenomenon in an objective, scientific way.
Of course, none of that nuance particularly matters when you're a think-tank conservative pushing his own agenda. Rather than take the question seriously, Eugene chooses to play defense for the team trying to shut down this nascent area of research, on the side of the censors and propagandists. Once upon a time, a First Amendment scholar could be counted on to evaluate the health of our public discourse and treat putative threats to it with serious consideration and sound analysis. Instead, we're treated to premature declarations of victory over the death of a discipline that Republicans view as threatening, for some reason, despite its inefficacy.
So we take a shitty piece of opinion-journalism, cherry-pick a couple of statements that bolster your own view, and present it here on this blog, where you get a regular colloquy with MAGA-fueled conspiracy theorists, who thump their chests like vindicated chimps. They'll go on and repeat this nonsense about "misinformation research being a tool of the radical left," drawn from a mischaracterization of a misleading piece that doesn't even say that.
This post is, in other words, an example of precisely the phenomenon that we ought to be studying. It's just a chain of dishonest and/or reckless commentators, working together to create a collectively-agreed falsehood that will go on to support cynical politicians campaigning to shut down any avenues left open to criticize their lies and propaganda for what it is.
Instead, we're treated to premature declarations of victory over the death of a discipline that Republicans view as threatening, for some reason, despite its inefficacy.
This whole thing is just a continuation of the efforts from conservatives to discredit "fact checking." They especially have targeted any organization that dedicates itself to the act of fact checking political figures. The obvious disingenuous nature of these complaints against fact checking is clear because there has never been any equivalent fact-checking outfit on the right to Politifact, FactCheck.org, etc. If the right actually valued truth and accuracy in news reporting, they would have done the same thing as the supposedly biased fact checkers on the left, but done it "better" in order to show people how much more truthful they are than the "left".
When has human politics been free of disinformation?
They weren't tricked, but they are being willfully ignorant.