The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Who We Are
Ruminating on what happened last week.
Well, we (see below) did it! We elected the guy who had tried to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States to be our President. Like a lot of people, I'm trying to understand what that means, both for the moment and going forward.
Bret Stephens, in a NY Times essay Eugene referred to in an earlier post, chides Harris supporters who rationalize their loss to a man "they saw as a twice-impeached former president, a felon, a fascist, a bigot, a buffoon, a demented old man …" by adopting the theory that "a nation prone to racism, sexism, xenophobia and rank stupidity fell prey to the type of demagoguery that once beguiled Germany into electing Adolf Hitler." This, Stephens asserts, illustrates the "broad inability of liberals to understand Trump's political appeal except in terms flattering to their beliefs, [which] is itself part of the explanation for his historic, and entirely avoidable, comeback."
OK, fine. Let's have that conversation. Let's put aside all talk of racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, or stupidity. What happened on Tuesday was not about any of that; it was about taxes and trade, and/or the overall state of the economy, and/or the rights of trans people, and/or immigration policy, and/or access to abortions, and/or vaccine mandates, and/or any of all of the many other issues on which Harris and Trump had vastly differing views.
My problem with that is that I can't get past the threshold. As I've said before, for me, involvement in, or overt support for, an attempt to subvert the peaceful transfer of executive power through unconstitutional extra-judicial means is absolutely disqualifying in a presidential candidate.
[I should add that I am not talking about a legally-enforceable disqualification, such as the one enacted as part of the 14th Amendment, or criminal liability, or anything of that nature. I'm talking about my vote - my personal determination of who I think is fit to lead the country.]
I had always thought, to the extent I had occasion to think about it, that pretty much everyone felt pretty much the same way. There's not much, in our system of government, more fundamental than the idea that we get to choose those who govern us, and that our choice, whatever it may be, will be respected. We can throw the bums out, as needed. We express our choice(s) through the ballot box. We have a process, worked out over the last 200+ years, to count up the votes and to declare a winner and a loser, at which point the losers make way and the winners take over. It's pretty basic and pretty straightforward, no?
Obviously, not everyone feels the same way. Many of my fellow-citizens - perhaps even a majority - disagree with me. I'm trying to understand how that can be true. Just as a matter of logic, it must be that either (a) they don't think that Trump was a participant in the scheme to overturn the 2020 election results, or (b) they don't think that participation in such a scheme is disqualifying in this sense.
Precisely because the American people are not stupid, I rule out (a). I mean, come on. It's not like Trump has backtracked, disavowed the scheme, apologized, or, as far as I can recall, said a single critical thing about the members of the armed mob that broke into the Capitol (reserving his criticism for those who refused to carry out their parts in the scheme, like Mike Pence and Brian Kerr). He was with them in spirit - the pressure on Pence, the fake electors, the phone calls to State election officials, the failure to step in for four hours after the Capitol perimeter was breached, . . . Everybody gets what was going on, right? He did what he did, and he's proud of it.
So it must be (b).
That, I admit, makes me pretty nervous. I don't know what kind of country we have if we no longer have a shared vision of the inviolability of our election results. I guess I'm about to find out.
Is this a case of "trying to understand Trump's appeal in terms that are flattering to my beliefs," in Stephens' terms? Maybe. I'll let you decide.
So that's the "it" in "we did it." Let me say a few words about the "we."
Americans are proud - justifiably - of living in a place where "we, the people," get to decide who our rulers are going to be. We weren't the first to come up with the idea, but we were the first to implement it on a large geographic scale, and the processes we have developed to do that, imperfect though it surely is, has stood us in reasonably good stead for over 200 years. We get, more or less, the government we want, and we resolve our differences about precisely what it is that we want through the ballot box.
Obviously, I didn't elect him. But he didn't steal the election (though I strongly suspect that he would have tried, as he tried before, had he needed to). He didn't even need the built-in small-state bias of the Electoral College. As far as I can tell, he won, fair and square.
So that's who we are: The kind of people who would elect this guy to be our President. He speaks now for all of us, including those of us who can't stand him and didn't vote for him. That's the way it works.
So I suppose that means that I can't really complain if he brings about the kind of change he talked about: imposing high tariffs on imported goods, deporting large numbers of undocumented immigrants (and policies designed to stanch the flow of new immigrants into the country), dismantling Obamacare, no new restrictions on armed weaponry, elimination of the child tax credit, relaxation of environmental standards across-the-board, dismantling the federal civil service and the Department of Education, . . . That's what we want, so it's going to be hard to complain if/when he tries to give it to us - at least, not if he does so via legal and constitutional means.
To my way of thinking, it's a nightmare scenario. But it's apparently what we want, and it might well be what we get. I don't think the American people will like living in that country. I could be wrong about that, but I'm already looking forward to the 2026 midterms.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Yes. But it's not as though we had no history from which to gain an understanding of human psychology, nor are Americans uniquely exempt from the same psychological impulses possessed by the rest of the world.
FWIW I predict that when things start falling apart badly enough that many Trump voters admit he's fucked up, they will blame the Democrats for not providing us with a better candidate.
Trump voters admit he’s fucked up
Have you been living under a rock? The guy told us all to inject bleach and Trumpists are still defending what him about that. (See the comments replying to this one below.)
Its over: Not only did Trump win, he won a majority (>50%) of the popular vote. 8 years of anti-Trump screed and lawfare only made him stronger. He's like an energy vampire.
I voted third party (surprise!), but I enjoy watching Trump channeling the Roadrunner and escaping the traps of the various Wile E. Coyotes in the Democratic Party, neoconservative movement, and Deep State.
"The guy told us all to inject bleach"
Liar.
I actually have a great response to this. No one cares that he says crazy things. In fact, it’s kind of funny. But people will care when his massively inflationary policies cause massive inflation.
[b]SNOPES[/b]
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-bleach-covid-19/
Trump Didn't Say People Should 'Inject Bleach' To Tackle COVID-19. Here's What He Said
The Republican presidential candidate's remarks near the start of the coronavirus pandemic have been repeatedly misrepresented.
What's True
During an April 2020 media briefing, Trump did ask members of the government's coronavirus task force to look into whether disinfectants could be injected inside people to treat COVID-19. But when a reporter asked in a follow-up question whether cleaning products like bleach and isopropyl alcohol would be injected into a person, the then-president said those products would be used for sterilizing an area, not for injections.
What's False
However, at no point did Trump explicitly tell people they could or should inject bleach into their bodies.
He told people in effect to give it a try.
“Running red lights is kind of interesting. People have been looking into that.”
Imagine a driver ed teacher saying that.
"In effect" is doing a bit too much work there.
As Snopes managed to correctly say, the context was what medical researchers were looking at, not what people were or should be trying at home.
Even more inconveniently, and as also directly quoted in the Snopes article, the exchange ended: "So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me."
Still irresponsible.
the context was what medical researchers were looking at
Lol that you think this helps him.
You're literally holding against him that he was better briefed on the research going on than you were.
That is the funniest part of all.
he was better briefed
Lol that you think that helps him!
As I pointed out at the time, people were actually having considerable success treating covid with nasal rinses that included extremely low concentrations of bleach. Something the officially approved nasal rinses naturally generate in the sinuses.
"The mechanism for the efficacy of saline against various viruses in the upper respiratory tract is that increased availability of local chloride ions (from NaCl) supports the production of hypochlorous acid (the active ingredient in bleach), "
And internal administration of bleach at very low concentrations is a therapy that has demonstrated both safety and effectiveness.
As they say, the dose makes the poison.
Brett doesn’t seem to know the difference between an injection and a rinse.
It’s not surprising that it came from some tidbit of poorly understood briefing material. In fact that’s what makes it funny. Our president is so stupid he thinks that when his researchers tell him that Clorox kills the virus in a minute — not unusual for viruses — that means they want to test bleach injections.
Let’s not forget “hitting the body with a very powerful light” and “supposing we brought the light inside the body.” Yes, UV light kills the virus too, again as per usual. Of course he knew that, he had just been told. In fact, he thought he was sounding smart!
A Harris ad referenced *drinking* bleach, not injecting it. When they start the ad out with such an obvious lie I don't know why I'd believe anything else they say.
You guys swore up and down and sideways on the grave of Stalin that America would be a smoking crater with only civilization being columns of goosestepping SS rounding up the remaining people into forced labor camps after the 1st Trump Presidency and earlier after the Bush Presidencies yet society is still here pretty much intact allowing you to whine and moan on the internet. So excuse me if I give no credence to any of your prognostications anymore.
It's hard to take seriously the infantile whine of someone who actually believes President Trump tried "to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States." Even harder to believe that such a person is employed as a legal professional. Unless I seriously misunderstand, is this post satire?
Totally agree
It may be a bot, but that doesn't mean it isn't an expert in infantile whining.
No, it's not satire. You don't think he tried to overturn the 2020 election results? Really!? And you think I'm infantile?!!
Go peacefully and patriotically. Not exactly in the top ten of revolutionary slogans. And the revolutionaries forgot their firearms. No wonder they failed although the head of the Water Buffalo Lodge managed to make it to the senate floor under escort. Weird. Did the capitol police surrender to him? Whatever. All’s well that ends well because this grave threat to national security was overcome.
Motivated reasoning is a powerful drug...
Yes, you are infantile and an idiot if this was an honest take. It is a dishonest worldview that gives a pass for every bad action on your side while assuming and seeing the worst from the other side.
It’s hard to take seriously the infantile whine of someone who actually believes President Trump tried “to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States.”
IT's hard to take seriously a fascist who denies the evidence of its own eyes in order to defend its leader.
Democrats right now appear to be denying the reasons they lost. Some even descending again into the idiocy of labeling anyone who rejected them as fascists or racists or sexists or transphobic or even supporters of an insurrectionist. I’m sure I’ve forgotten a few moronic labels. Feel free to create your own list. It’s fun.
I don't give a shit what Democrats are denying. I'm not one of them,
You've shown fascist inclinations, and the storming of the Capitol was not a mere peaceful protest.
President Trump nominating jews and women to positions of power and authority, and he wants accountability for government misconduct. He’s not really doing that nazi dictator thing very well.
And I’m not sure exactly what happened on Jan 6, other than that the Democrat version is pure fiction written to achieve an electoral advantage. Let’s hope there’s more transparency in the future.
President Trump nominating jews and women to positions of power and authority, and he wants accountability for government misconduct. He’s not really doing that nazi dictator thing very well.
You can appoint Jews and women and still be a dictator. The questions are, under what conditions do they serve? Where is their loyalty - to Trump or to the USA? Was their competence to do the job one of the most important cconsiderations, or was loyalty or relationship to Trump more important?
And we have this strange fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_Jung
And I’m not sure exactly what happened on Jan 6
Can you at least concede it was not peaceful, or is even that concession beyond you?
I’m going to ignore Wikipedia, as should all thinking people. As for the nominations, you forgot your fascist label. Not too many fascists elevate jews to positions of authority, not to mention backing Israel. I guess he could just lulling you into a false sense of security?
As for J6, I remember many people walking peacefully between roped barriers. Now there were some bad actors, but who they all were and what was motivating them, don’t really know. I’ll wait to get some disclosures on all those confidential gov’t sources that the FBI declined to release until after the election. Some clarity on the DNC “bomb” threat that apparently wasn't may help shed some additional light.
I wonder if (enough) Americans understand that no system of democracy and/or rule of law can exist without people who support it. If you keep electing politicians who want to destroy democracy and the rule of law, eventually they will succeed.
Great, you just described the netherlands, since the rule of law seems somewhat tenuous there, at the moment.
Trump got an outright majority of the popular vote. Democracy does not mean what you think it does.
If they vote for someone who promises to be a dictator and crush the opposition, that will be the last election. It’s happened before.
That is not going to happen. Quit the drama queen act.
I’m not going to knock Biden’s respect for democracy, but he certainly doesn’t respect the rule of law. If he did he would enforce it, not decide he doesn’t like it. We have robust immigration laws that he decided he could ignore and replace with no legal or constitutional authority.
He crafted a half dozen student loan forgiveness programs he knew were illegal and bragged about ignoring the Supreme Court. He specifically crafted the program to evade review by the courts.
I could go on for a while about executive orders flouting laws like oil lease sale requirements, ATF regulations that rewrite statutes, power plant regulations with no basis in law, OSHA regulations imposing vaccine mandates, etc.
All power grabs based on nothing more than a stroke of his pen.
You voted for a felon who had multiple other felony convictions headed his way.
Don't pretend like you give a fuck about the 'rule of law.'
He was railroaded in a biased court by biased prosecutors. I guess you only support judicial decision reached by a kangaroo court.
"Biased prosecutors" is a particularly stupid criticism. Prosecutors are generally biased against criminals. That's okay; they're not required to be otherwise in our adversarial system.
Trump is right in there with Nelson Mandela on that conviction thing. Good company.
The New York felony convictions were for bullshit charges.
Don't pretend you give a fuck about the 'rule of law.'
You, providing no evidence and mostly a personal attack, disagree with the a trial that included all the process that was due, as well as thinking a judge and a jury don't know the law as well as you do.
You base your opinion on nothing more than passion.
Methinks the rule of law issues are closer to home than you think.
Actually why don't you wait until the verdict is final, the DA is actually contemplating requesting the charges be dismissed, which is all it will take because it is not a final verdict yet.
There is, of course, no evidence that Bragg is actually contemplating requesting the charges be dismissed.
It is.
Biden enforced all the immigration laws. In fact, he issued at least two executive orders that attempted to crack down on the border harder than the law allowed. One was overturned by the courts, and the other one soon will be.
Anyway, good to know that you think Presidents should follow the rule of law. Get ready to be disappointed in your recent selection.
Destroy democracy? Like multiple attempts to git him long before 2020 and remove him from office?
Jan 6 was bad, more a tantrum. What you guys did, year after year of turning the investigative power against a political opponent, now that was vastly worse.
There was, and is, a terrible threat to democracy, but the theater of January 6 wasn't it. It was bad; you are vastly worse.
And now, because you political exaggererating frauds keep exaggerating, now I have to spend the next 4 years explaining slowly why letting a dictator conquer parts of Europe isn't in America's interest.
Thanks!
Heh. For the millionth time: he, his lawyers, his fake electors and his 'republican congressmen' broke the law. We used to punish criminality. But all I have to do is run for office and I'll be immune?
You are absolutely right. It is impossible to imagine a more significant threat to democracy than to weaponize the judicial system against your political opponents.
Then why did you vote for Trump?
It is impossible to imagine a more significant threat to democracy than to weaponize the judicial system against your political opponents.
Listen very carefully to what you just said, and consider the possibility that your enthusiasm for Trump might lead you down some illogical paths every once in a while.
In much the same way that 9/11 was a hullabaloo.
This is the most asinine, over-exaggerated comparison I've ever seen.
I mean, you literally proved my point of hyperbole and over-exaggeration. At no point did I ever say Jan 6 wasn't wrong. At no point did I ever say the fake slates weren't wrong.
They had operatives trying to run a tricky line through the Constitution, something anyone whose ever read me here over the years knows I constantly complain about.
You know all about little tricks don't you? You've spent 8 years using them against your political opponents. This is your bed, not mine. Lie in it.
The responses here are telling. All pointing elsewhere.
I fully expect that to be the cry in defense of whatever bad shit Trump aims for.
Because it's not really about what Trump aims for; it's about hating those he attacks enough that nothing else matters.
You're back!
Democracy only exists when the candidate I want wins all the time!
You get a 10 on the irony meter.
We know, it is (D)ifferent.
Having largely voted for losing candidates my adult life (the joys of being a Liberal/LibDem voter in Britain, I can confirm that the implication is bullshit.
“I had always thought, to the extent I had occasion to think about it, that pretty much everyone felt pretty much the same way.”
That’s because you live in a bubble. COVID and mail in ballots demolished peoples faith in the election process (CA and WA are not even done counting as I write this, its absurd in 2024). Four years of resistance and lawfare prior to that further reduced people’s confidence in the electoral process. They think its all political, and they are not wrong.
Cancel culture is partly to blame: Democrats (and University Professor elites) shaming people and trying to cancel people for every opinion they disagree with (including expressing the view that their might have been fraud during COVID) only drove those opinions underground.**
If you are a professor, or celebrity, the message you should be getting is: people simply don’t believe you, especially when you talk in absolutes. People love immigrants, so long as the border is secure and we can vet people. People love voting, but want some controls so they believe the count (I myself don’t see the big deal with voter ID, given that welfare, Medicare, and almost every other program requires it, so I am hard pressed to see how this suppresses voting).
I want to be clear: I am not suggesting there was widespread fraud (I think fraud is unlikely), however people have to recognize the validity of these arguments and risks, so that during a close election people have faith in the process.
** As is turns out there *was* massive fraud during COVID, organized crime stole a lot of unemployment money. Ordinary people ask: if criminals can steal tens of billions, why can they also steal votes?
Adding: Oct 7th further degraded people’s faith in college elites (people with a college degree are a minority in the US, a fact which lawyers and college professors forget). Oct 7th showed a lot of people that colleges were intolerant indoctrination camps, not learning institutions.
Ordinary people ask
And then MAGA lies to them in order to keep them scared and confused. And I'm pretty sure they know they're being lied to and are ok with it for various reasons.
I don't think copying MAGA is the right thing for Democrats to do, patronizing people by telling them the lies they want to hear. If people decide they want to wake up and rejoin reality, they'll have a party to come back to.
Except who's been lying to keep people scared? I've seen countless people claiming Trump is behind absolutely absurd policies and that we need to set up underground railroads for trans people to not be murdered in the streets while women are turned into property who can't work, leave the house, hold their own bank account, or get birth control and everyone with one drop minority blood will get enslaved. Precisely none of these ideas have even been mentioned much less actually proposed.
Otherwise presumably intelligent people actually believe these things because they had been lied to constantly.
As a conservative, I'm constantly surprised by what people tell me I believe. I am then wondering what comic book they live in.
That's just a bunch of melodramatic predictions for the future. It's not lying to say "I think it's gonna snow tomorrow" and then it doesn't snow. No one knows the future.
Trump and MAGA are lying about actual things that are actually happening. Like "they're eating the dogs" or his imaginary urban crime wave. Not at all the same thing.
Look, I get that you really want to believe that Democrats are as evil as Trump to make yourself feel better. But you're not convincing anyone but yourself.
while women are turned into property who can’t work, leave the house, hold their own bank account, or get birth control
No. That's not going to happen, but JD Vance sure seems to think it should.
Randal,
You're correct. People don't want to be lied to. Did MAGA offer some lies? I'm sure they did. But I am also sure that Tem-D pushed far greater lies with the fear campaigns tat I can recall every election season since my childhood: R's will send our boys to war, R's will take away your social security, R's will take away your health insurance. This year was added: R's will destroy democracy, R's will bring in a fascist state. R's will take away your right to vote. It goes on as it does every 4 years.
People woke up long ago. They do not believe Team-R lies and they do not believe Team-D lies.
It is the elites that need awaken to the reality of 90% of Americans
As I also explained to Ben here, your examples of Democratic statements aren't lies in any sense of the word. We don't know what R's are going to do in the future. Maybe they will take away Social Security. Maybe they won't. Telling voters that bad things will happen if they vote for the other side could turn out to be wrong, but they aren't lies.
In the end, it's up to you to decide whether to believe the R's or the D's predictions about what's going to happen. It's also up to you to decide whether Trump's past behavior is disqualifying. You can't hide behind "well D's made wrong predictions about Bush too" -- this isn't about what Trump will do in the future, it's about what he's already done. You know what he's done, you don't need to worry about what the D's have to say about it.
Lies are things like "They're eating the dogs." Just knowingly factually inaccurate statements about reality as it exists or existed. That's the kind of thing MAGA and Trump peddle. MAGA people think they're living in a hellhole country that's not the country they live in. Crime is going down, for example, as anyone who actually lives in a city could tell you if you actually cared.
People don’t want to be lied to.
My statement was that people do want to be lied to, when those lies confirm their biases and desires, such as MAGA voters.
Why do you feel the need to justify your vote for Trump to me? I suspect you feel the need to justify it to yourself. Sad (and stupid) that you're trying to blame the Democrats for your own vote.
'You don't take me seriously, so you deserve Trump' is a child's tantrum.
This is a great example of the motive behind MAGA. Just resenting a whole lot of people for daring to not like you, even if you don't have a lot to challenges you point to in your own life.
Well how is that different than resenting a whole lot of people for not voting like you?
Its actually just human nature, to resent people who oppose things you care about. We are all soccer hooligans at heart, but mostly banging keyboards instead of heads.
Do my comments drip with the same broad-brush resentments dwb68's do?
I don't resent large swaths of the nation, even if I think they've sacrificed their critical thinking on the altar of their feels, and so believe demonstrably wrong things.
What Trump voters did sucks. But I've long ago learned not to essentialize politics in my relationships. As I've said before, I have close friends and close coworkers who I very much expect voted for Trump.
Voting is not a rational act. I think Post is dead wrong on that one.
"What Trump voters did sucks."
What Team-D power brokers and money bags did sucks. As did what their dupes did. How is any of that different except for which side of the pancake you examine?
Well how is that different than resenting a whole lot of people for not voting like you?
I don't think resenment is the right word (although that is what MAGA wants you to think). More like disappointment.
50%, or 75 million people, voted for Trump. He won the popular vote. That is more than “resentment.” That is: half the country didnt like Biden Harris policies.
75/335 is not 1/2.
But it is closer to 1/2 than is 69/335.
335 million cast votes???? That's 335 million is the total US populatrion.
74,850,806 cast votes for Trump
71,264,089 cast votes for Harris
1,399,983 cast votes for Stein or Kennedy
75/147 is pretty close to half.
No, he said 'half the country' didn't like Biden/Harris policies.
He should choose his words more carefully, because that statement is simply not supported by evidence.
Barring evidence to the contrary, we should probably mildly assume that the voters are representative of the entire public. Legally they are, at least.
Your post above is all about how you didn't vote based on policies, dwb!
it isnt. reading is phundamental.
Where's the policy?
The only policies I see are used to show that people didn't give you the respect you believe you deserve.
"That’s because you live in a bubble. COVID and mail in ballots demolished peoples faith in the election"
No, it reinforced your twisted, conspiratorial view of American democracy. The rest of us realize that viruses are a natural phenomenon, and mail-in ballots have been employed successfully for decades until the Orange Caligula convinced you that they are a Venezuelan cabal. It's amusing to me that people like yourself are so low wattage that you'll swallow anything spooned to you
Let’s not forget the three years the Dems spent obstructing the first Trump administration with false claims of Russian collusion. Trump was found guilty of 34 “felonies” related to mis-identifying payments for a non-disclosure agreement as campaign contributions. Well, Secretary Clinton made the exact same kind of mis-identification when her campaign reported payments to her law firm as a conduit for payment for the Steele Dossier…no charges were brought in New York and the 2 people charged in DC were acquitted because the jury did not feel the violation really mattered.
As disgraceful as Trump’s role in January 2020 was, the Dems actions during his entire administration were more disgraceful. So I don’t blame Trump too much for fighting the 2020 election results. Because as Darryl Cooper wrote:
“Many Trump supporters don’t know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know with apodictic certainty that the press, the FBI, and even the courts would lie to them if they were. They have every reason to believe that, and it’s probably true. They watched the corporate press behave like animals for four years. Tens of millions of people will always see Brett Kavanaugh as a gang rapist, based on an unproven accusation, because of CNN. And CNN seems proud of that. They helped lead a lynch mob against a high school kid. They cheered on the most deadly and destructive riots in decades.”
The first impeachment trial was a farce. The second impeachment trial was even worse since, as Alan Dershowitz wrote (and I paraphrase), Trump did not specifically call for violence on January 6th. The Jan 6 Commission conflated planning for the Jan 6 rally with the Capitol riot and the Dems used their House majority to ram through the vote in the House.
I loath Trump. But I find the Dems even more loathsome. And Adam Schiff, the shameless liar, is now promoted to the Senate. Will the Dems learn their lesson and stop playing resistance? Probably not. How far will the go now? Will they have the DC National Guard arrest Trump, and members of the House and Senate for their role in the “insurrection” so that they will have a majority in both houses of Congress on January 6, 2025? It is comical to think things could go that far…but we’ve seen all kinds of unbelievable things in the last 8 years.
Using David's logic consistently he supported a rapist in Biden and an enabler of such in Clinton and stands fully behind the nationwide insurrection in the form of BLM riots and seizure of US territory. Then there is the subversion of Democracy in the Steele dossierand the suppression of true information in the Hunter laptop that goes far beyond paying for legal expenses. This is such a dishonest take it's hard to fathom how he puts his shoes on in the morning, let alone has a successful career in academia...wait, I see the flaw in my logic regarding academics not being gibbering Leftist morons.
Cooper is dead wrong in other areas, but his viral Twitter/X thread was spot-on. After all the nonsense we saw with the Russia Collusion hoax and irregularities in the 2020 election season, Trump's post election misconduct does not look so bad.
Regarding the 2020 irregularities, the fact that there were irregularities does not mean the election was stolen. It is better to take a risk management approach. The changes in election procedures and the increase in mail in ballots introduced higher levels of risk. The existence of higher levels of risk of error or fraud does not prove the existence of error or fraud, but it decreases our confidence that there was no error or fraud.
2020 vote was vastly anomalous.
The 2020 Democrat Popular Vote gained 15,431,152 over 2016,
then lost 10,367,720 in 2024 from 2020.
The 2020 Republican Popular Vote gained 11,239,491 over 2016,
then gained 426,445 in 2024 over 2020.
What happened to 10.4 million Democrat voters 2020 -2024? Abducted by the Roswell Grays? Cringing in their safe rooms with TeeDeeEss on Election Day? What?
Inquiring minds want to know! Really. I noticed the discrepancy early Wednesday. Then I heard Matt Taibbi and Walter Kirn mention this during their election recap.
Some of those 2024 votes are still being counted. And yes, the 2020 vote was anomalous, and reason enough to suspect the election was rigged.
There are so many ways this is stupid, starting with the fact that you are illiterate and don't know that the adjective is Democratic.
Second, your facts are completely wrong; Democrats did not "lose" 10 million votes from 2020 to 2024. There are lots more votes to be counted.
Third, let's assume that your facts were right. Why would that be "anomalous"? Do you think every candidate is supposed get the same number of votes as his/her party's candidate in a previous election? If so, every election would turn out the same way!
Fourth, what is your idiot conspiracy theory supposed to be — that Democrats successfully stole the 2020 election… and then just decided not to do so in 2024?
Carl, you should probably avoid embarrasing yourself with posts this stupid.
People vote for different candidates -- or no candidate at all -- in different years for lots of reasons. It's not a sign of fraud. Why are you so desperate to seem MAGAty? Already worried about ending up on Trump's Enemies List?
a rapist in Biden
If you think Biden's a rapist, I guess you gotta think the same thing about Trump and Kavanaugh, eh?
You have no evidence about Kavanaugh except the testimony of a witness who was caught lying twice under oath.
(fear of flying and the second front door, if you're interested)
“the 2 people charged in DC were acquitted because the jury did not feel the violation really mattered.”
Who are you referring to here? As I recall, the Clinton campaign was found to have violated campaign finance laws for failing to properly disclose the payments to Fusion GPS, and paid a fine. As far as I know, there is no proof that any business records were falsified.
Michael Sussman and Igor Danchenko.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/31/sussmann-acquitted-trump-special-counsel-00036033
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/18/danchenko-acquitted-on-all-counts-in-durham-russia-probe-00062380
Um, neither one was charged with anything related to the way Clinton's campaign categorized spending related to the dossier. And neither one was acquitted "because the jury did not feel the violation really mattered." They were acquitted because Durham couldn't prove the cases against either of them beyond a reasonable doubt.
Durham never had a chance in front of a (D)C jury.
“Many Trump supporters don’t know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know with apodictic certainty that the press, the FBI, and even the courts would lie to them if they were. They have every reason to believe that, and it’s probably true.
Which is the problem. Trump spent four years spreading his Big Lie, cheated, with support from some who should know better.
So he convinced a lot of people. And now I am expected to show respect for those opinions, and other idiotic beliefs he spread repeatedly?
I don't buy it.
"the press, the FBI, and even the courts would lie to them"
Are the courts perjuring now? All of them including Harlan Thomas? That's a damning indictment on MAGA-curious republican judges...which I presume are included
Darth, it must be exhausting living in constant fear of everything
Let’s not forget the three years the Dems spent obstructing the first Trump administration
As you lot are so fond of whataboutism, what about when the GOP did that for Obama - and earlier, Clinton? Or is it diffe(R)ent then?
Or maybe, just maybe, we don't believe he actually was trying to subvert anything?
Or maybe, just maybe, we do have an issue with tens of thousands of ballots being dropped in the middle of the night, being 95% for Democrats?
The J6 folks were protesting a stolen election.
Biden/Harris used the DoJ to persecute political enemies. That is disqualifying.
Wrong, and wrong. Now folks, back to reality.
"Just as a matter of logic, it must be that either (a) they don't think that Trump was a participant in the scheme to overturn the 2020 election results, or (b) they don't think that participation in such a scheme is disqualifying in this sense."
Or (c) they think that comparably disqualifying schemes (Of various sorts, to varying ends...) have become common enough in America that what they think Trump actually did, (As opposed to what he's hysterically accused of doing.) is not uniquely bad, and it was back to comparing policy positions.
Maybe it's not that they think Trump is so much better than you do, as that they think things are generally so much worse than you do, that Trump doesn't really stick out so much in their view.
Yeah, this is not a generic vote on "Do You Approve Trump's Record"? It's a choice among candidates.
And I've been solemnly informed that there are only two *real* candidates - the Donks and the Elephants. Make a choice between those two!
And what an inspirational choice it is! Maybe Post should spend some time explaining why Harris was *better* than Trump, not why Trump is a giant douche. We know that, the question is why we should vote for the turd sandwich running against the giant douche.
But those are the same thing.
You didn't watch that South Park episode, did you?
David,
You've lost it. Trump is a scoundrel and Harris is an empty suit.
…which is why Harris is infinitely better than Trump.
(Although "scoundrel" understates Trump's malevolence to about the same degree that calling Charles Manson a rapscallion would understate his.)
You sure do describe your incredibly dark worldview.
But most posters on here that support Trump aren't like you. They're just angry at all the people who don't take them seriously.
You think Biden was gonna ban guns and put you in a camp.
No one else is on that road, Brett.
I 100% think the Harris/Walz administration would've tried to ban guns. (Probably after neutering the Supreme Court first.)
I mean that's pretty crazy. But you can't be BrettCrazy unless you think next come the camps.
I don't think Biden would have had time to progress to camps, but he absolutely wanted to ban guns, he talked about banning guns often enough; He's a gun banner from way back, after all.
Biden's Guns Speech
Biden Calls for Ban on Assault Weapons and New ‘Red Flag’ Laws
Sure, he said he wasn't taking anybody's guns away; At the same time as he advocated laws that would ... take guns away.
And Harris, of course, has said that the US needs mandatory gun 'buy backs'; Oh, how nice, she'd pay you for the confiscated guns.
Now, you'll doubtless protest that they didn't want to ban ALL guns. Bullshit. They didn't want to ban all guns right away, they planned to do it incrementally.
That isn’t evidence for your scenario.
You have chosen to believe in a false world of oppression.
It’s a pretty fucked up way to be.
Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I came here to say -- particularly the actually did vs. hysterical accusations part.
Sounds like Post spent the last 4 years in the orangey-reds-under-the-bed-oooh-scary-help-help echo chamber and just can't fathom (or possibly admit to himself) that he's actually the one that's been had here.
"comparably disqualifying schemes"
??? Please regale us with a comparable scheme
For instance, back in 2000, Gore tried to steal the election in Florida. First by a last minute and very calculatedly selective partial recount, that if it had worked would have made it look like Gore was the state-wide winner, even if a state-wide recount would have shown he was indeed the loser. Then by an unconstitutionally conducted statewide recount. (7 Justices agreed it was unconstitutional, 5 agreed on the remedy.)
Or in 2016 when Democrats tried to suborn Trump electors, and, yes, the Clinton campaign DID have a hand in that. Sure, it backfired, but they tried it.
Is that what Gore did? So you don't like candidates that contest elections and demand multiple recounts? Maybe even...bring a lot of lawsuits? Jaysus, Brett. Is this what you cling to?
According to Brett, Trump threatening to prosecute Georgia officials if they didn't fabricate votes for him is A-OK, but Gore asking for recounts as expressly provided by state law is trying to "steal" the election.
And no, the Clinton campaign did not have a hand in trying to suborn Trump electors, if for no other reason than that nobody tried to suborn Trump electors. But also because the Clinton campaign didn’t.
Brett ignores that logic, it's part of the new protocol. Do you notice that when anyone brings up fake electors here, you get crickets?
Maybe it’s not that they think Trump is so much better than you do, as that they think things are generally so much worse than you do
This falls under David’s option B. It’s not disqualifying, by this logic, because everyone else is as bad or worse.
Of course, that belief is a self-serving MAGA lie. Trump has managed to convince millions of people that America is uncommonly shitty. Sad.
It’s like taking your kids to eat at the one restaurant in town that fails their health inspections because their ad campaign is “All the other restaurants are even worse, but Deep Health is biased in their favor. Fake Inspections!”
“Americans are proud—justifiably—of living in a place where ‘we, the people,’ get to decide who our rulers are going to be. We weren’t the first to come up with the idea, but we were the first to implement it on a large geographic scale, and the processes we have developed to do that, imperfect though it surely is, has stood us in reasonably good stead for over 200 years.”
Unless you count the illegal disenfranchisement of Black voters, just to take one example.
Presidential election after Presidential election was tainted by the exclusion of Black votes. Yes, that was within that 200 year time frame.
And let’s consider voter fraud – the actual kind. How did Hayes get into office in 1877?
There comes a point where brushing off these things as “imperfections” sounds like minimalization.
Just to be clear, most countries have worse records re free elections. The record of the USA is usually inspirational. But let’s not go overboard into clutching pearls and pretending Trump is a serpent slithering into our Eden.
And I've been constantly instructed that an election has only two choices - Turd Sandwich or Giant Douche. And if you vote Giant Douche it's because you like his douchiness, not because you find it preferable to a turd sandwich.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
HL Mencken
Lesliek: “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”
HL Mencken
Very nice ...
I’ve said this a few times, I did think Trump disqualified himself for his conduct 4 years ago. And I voted against him in the primaries.
Problem is the Democrats also had in succession two candidates that have in my opinion disqualified themselves by supporting unconstitutional and oppressive actions like suppressing speech, proposing gun confiscation, and taxing unrealized capital gains.
Being able to democratically elect your oppressor isn’t as attractive option.
Trump is 78, and cannot run again, he seems a lot less a threat to my civil rights than Harris, and of course Biden is not only incompetent but a threat to peace because a weak leader leads to aggression. Which is why we have the Ukraine war because Biden’s pre-invasion response was so supine.
If the Democrats really saw Trump as the threat and unacceptable choice you believe they should have nominated a national unity elder statesman candidate like Mitt Romney, or a technocrat like Jerome Powell.
If they gave me a choice I would have taken it.
Instead they nominated the most left wing candidate in party history.
So I guess the danger from Trump actually isn’t serious, because they certainly didn’t act like it. Every Republican candidate in my lifetime with the sole exception of Eisenhower was compared to Hitler, actually I suppose Eisenhower probably was too, Wendell Wilke was before I was born. It just doesn't work anymore.
I also wonder how many people thought Harris' "coup" over the summer over Biden offset Trumps Jan 6th behavior. Of course it wasn't the same, but the Dems didn't do themselves any favors by anointing her.
I also wonder how many people thought Harris’ “coup” over the summer over Biden offset Trumps Jan 6th behavior.
I don't know. How many complete idiots are there in the country?
There's one. Or 11; is that three, binary, double binary, or what?
dwb68: I also wonder how many people thought Harris’ “coup” over the summer over Biden offset Trumps Jan 6th behavior. Of course it wasn’t the same, but the Dems didn’t do themselves any favors by anointing her.
Can anyone seriously believe this? I agree that the Dems "didn't do themselves any favors by anointing her." But are there really people who think her "coup" - being handed the nomination by the presumptive nominee who was dropping out - is remotely like trying to overturn the results of an election and prevent the peaceful transfer of power? Seriously? If so, things are worse than I thought.
You're right David. The "coup" was not Harris's; it was Pelosi's.
Are there really people who think Pelosi's “coup” – being handed the nomination by the presumptive nominee who was dropping out – is remotely like trying to overturn the results of an election and prevent the peaceful transfer of power? Seriously? If so, things are worse than I thought.
What if, as Seymour Hersch (admittedly not an ironclad source) asserted, Harris and Pelosi and/or Obama threatened Biden with the 25th Amendment if he didn’t abandon his reelection campaign? It seems to me that would be a huge scandal and clearly an abuse of the Constitution. The 25th Amendment is to be used for a President who cannot perform the functions of the office, which the “conspirators” (if there was a conspiracy) were seemingly not concerned about since they allegedly pressured Biden to withdraw from the campaign not to resign from office when his term still had 6 months to go. Six months is a long time to go without a functioning President.
The 25th Amendment was not designed to be used by a Vice President simply because she thinks that she has a better chance of winning an election than the President. And it is not, I think, an answer to say that they were okay with Biden’s completing his term but concerned about his mental status in a second term, since the 25th Amendment deals with present inability to discharge his duties, not a hypothetical future inability. And, of course, this concern over Biden’s long-standing slide into dementia only ripened when it could no longer be hidden from the public after the debate.
I’m not saying that did happen, but it does seem that there has been very little curiosity about it, and, if it did, it would seem to be a clear impeachable offense on the part of the Vice President.
Good point, except for the examples you gave of unity candidates. Romney and Powell - especially Powell the Fed bureaucrat - don't sound like slam-dunks against Trump.
Perhaps some more unificating person?
Again, you are equating policy differences with stealing an election. The only time the former reaches the latter is if the president acts in defiance of a court order outside the rule of law.
LOL. So, as long as courts sign off on it, everything is hunky-dory, right? Say, did you know that German courts signed off on the Nazis' "euthanasia" program? And, I'm pretty sure, arresting / imprisoning their political opponents too. And the disenfranchisement of Jews (and their subsequent "deportation"?).
Sorry, Josh, but once you start "suppressing speech [and] proposing gun confiscation," you've already "reached [the threshold]." I'm not waiting for your goons to come arrest me & my family and put us in a cattle-car.
Trump is the one proposing to suppress speech, not Harris.
Kamala and her boss actively suppressed speech. That is the difference.
What speech did Kamala allegedly suppress?
As for Biden, I assume you’re referring to the social media misinformation stuff. The Supreme Court said no one’s speech was suppressed by the Biden admin, and actually the temporary injunction was suppressing Biden’s speech. It’s an argument you guys make all the time in defense of Trump’s tirades against the media.
This. I, too, wanted to mentally disqualify Trump after Jan 6. My list of things the Dems stacked up against this is different than yours, but they still stacked up in the end. (I posted my own list on that wonderful day-after thread that actually asked Trump voters for insight, rather than simply rationalizing why we're all just dumb and/or evil.)
One thing I think the folks arguing about "politics as normal" or "policy differences" really miss is that this isn't a game of Nomic. If you "win" by slowly changing the rules until the rules themselves rule out everyone but you, that can still set off my anti-democratic alarms. For instance, packing the Supreme Court: no, I'm not going to give you a pass just because you want to do it the "right" way, when your motives and timing are such an abject attempt to subvert the system functioning as intended.
One of the reasons Dems had such a difficult time getting their accusations of Trump's criminality to stick with swing voters like me is because they usually had to draw some really thin lines between their own behavior and Trump's. It's like, yes, I understand there's a difference between a President egging on a riot in the Capital on vote-counting day, compared to race riots across the country being handled with kid gloves by various down-ballot leaders. I even think it's a line worth recognizing and preserving. But also, taking one step across that line still doesn't lead to that much of a _difference_ between Trump and a Democratic establishment standing on tiptoe to avoid crossing it. Definitely not enough of a difference for me to view the Dems as noble defenders of Democracy compared to Trump. It feels a lot more like Dems getting off on a technicality. And after four years of Democrats trying to squeeze as close to that line as they can, it eventually adds up to a wash.
Those looking to save democracy by their vote for President really need to be looking elsewhere for that, there's certainly all sorts of other things that can/should/must be done. Ironically enough, bashing people for voting for the wrong candidate isn't one of them!
Packing the Court does not help one party over the other in the long run, and the Democrat's proposal was too late to help them in the short run. What else have the Democrats done to change the rules?
Democrats spent four years squeezing as close as they can to the line of supporting riots and trashing democracy? Sounds like a partisan take to me.
JUST packing the Court doesn't help one party over the other in the long run. But JUST packing the Court doesn't do anything, really.
The point of packing the Court is to turn it into a combination rubber stamp, and super legislature not subject to the voters' wrath. The things that rubber stamp stamps, and that super legislature 'enacts', are absolutely capable of long run effects.
Watching you guys trying to justify your Trump votes to yourselves is pretty hysterical. You voted for the con man, you're MAGA now. Might as well own it! Rah Rah concentration camps! Heave ho, the First Amendment's got to go! Martial Law and Justice for all! Let's just declare a National Bankruptcy to fix the debt!
At the very least, if they'd meant the crap they'd been spouting about "insurrection", they would have charged him with that crime! But they never did, despite controlling the DOJ for the past 3.5 years.
David's post is exactly how I feel. We sadly don't share what should have been obviously disqualifying behavior by Trump because:
1) Some people believe the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and his actions were justified (e.g., Lennyyk78. these people are bat-shit crazy).
2) Some people believe Trump lost but did nothing wrong up to and including Jan 6 (haven't yet seen a post in this thread, but that too is bat-shit crazy)
3) Some people believe Trump is guilty of nothing worse than what Democrats did to him (e.g., Brett, Darth, dwb68 - not bat-shit crazy, but pathetically partisan).
4) Some people believe Trump did not come close to succeeding - no harm, no foul (haven't yet seen a post in this thread, but this Sideshow Bob defense is pathetic as well).
You too miss the point, that Post is fretting over how his (a) or (b) logic failed him, and the answer is that he ignored the possibility of his base assumptions skipping a step.
What step was skipped?
DaveM chimed in below with the Sideshow Bob defense.
5) Trump tried to prevent violence on J6 by, e.g., calling for National Guard in advance and telling his supporters to disperse, but both of these actions were blocked by the very people who now accuse him of orchestrating J6.
I mean, really, give me a reasonable explanation why someone planning on overthrowing the government by force would call for troops to defend the government? Make it make sense.
6) There's enough substantial truth in some or all of the above claims that one would rather side with the people making those claims than with people calling them stupid and evil. Call it "It's the 'stupid', stupid".
Trump did no such thing, and of course nobody can "block" the president from calling out the National Guard. He's CinC.
I bet you blame the woman for wearing provocative clothes too, Josh R.
I gave you the answer. And to Professor Post as well. Neither of you understand (or apparently care about) the experience of the people who voted for President Trump. Yet neither of you understand why he won, decisively. Ezekiel 12:2 is apropos here.
And the Trumpsters believed the same thing. You may not like it, and you may think it beggars reason, but they thought there had been enough funny business surrounding the casting and counting of the votes that they gave little or no credence to the official reported results, and they were looking for ways to get a fresh review the returns from several states and *implement*, not thwart, what they expected that review would show to be the actual choice of the people.
And as for being "with them [the January 6 rioters] in spirit": Give me an effing break. Trump's people in the Joint Session were prepared to go through a process that had been employed (though never successfully since 1876) to challenge the certified electors from several states and initiate a process to determine the rightful choice of electors from those states. The rioters prevented that process from going forward in an orderly manner, and ensured that the Biden electors would be recognized by the Joint Session. So which was it: Did Trump want to shut down the process or have it go forward, potentially resulting in the recognition of electors pledged to him? It can't be both.
Every time I explain that last bit, they tell me Trump was just stupid enough to think breaking into the Capitol to interrupt his own plan would advance it.
Imagine they managed to delay the vote until the next day. They got very close! That already pushes it outside the Constitutional framework. At that point, the argument gets easier for waiting until the 8th, 9th, February, 2022, etc. Better to get it audited first, right? After all, there are always more questions... how can anyone ever be sure?
It almost worked.
No Brett, that’s not the problem with the story you and Seamus have put together. Here is the real reason it is implausible:
A challenge to any state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses of Congress. The Democrats outright controlled the House. Is your claim, Brett, that Trump was so stupid he didn’t know which party had a majority in the House? Or that he was clinically delusional to the point of thinking some Democrats would be swayed by his greatness?
You don’t really believe Trump was that stupid or delusional. So you need to concede that he knew this particular plan was doomed, and he knew it weeks before January 6th.
His actual plan involved Pence trying to throw out electoral votes using his authority as presiding officer. But Pence had been signaling for quite some time that he was not inclined to play along. There is no chance that Trump missed those signals – unless, again, you think he is mentally incompetent.
It was so obvious that Pence wasn’t going to play along voluntarily that some people in the crowd even had “Hang Mike Pence” props prepared in advance. And just to be clear, no, I don’t think they really intended to hang anybody. But they clearly already knew that Pence would “betray” them.
What Trump hoped was that Pence would change his mind.
What the rioters hoped was they could intimidate/buffalo/shame Pence and/or some congress members into changing sides. That is, after all, the purpose of any protest. To make people uncomfortable enough to change their minds. It's even a legal tactic if you don't take it to the point of forcible entry, trespass, and assault.
Did Trump coordinate with the rioters? No definite evidence. Would he have been happy if they had succeeded? Only a fool could doubt that and I think you (Brett) are not a fool.
ducksalad: Did Trump coordinate with the rioters? No definite evidence. Would he have been happy if they had succeeded? Only a fool could doubt that and I think you (Brett) are not a fool.
Exactly.
No, I tell you that you're stupid enough not to understand that breaking into the Capitol did not "interrupt" his plan; it was his plan.
He wanted to shut down the process because there were no "electors pledged to him" in the swing states, and he needed to stop the actual electors' votes from being certified in the hopes he could either get their votes thrown out by Pence or have swing state legislatures throw out their votes. This isn't complicated.
Just to be clear David, you're saying POTUS Trump knew the riot would happen in advance, and directed it? It was his plan.
That is what you are saying, correct?
Well, yes. Or, more precisely, Trump's camp knew and counted on it; I'm not saying that Trump personally was aware of anything beyond tee times at the local course. Don't forget that Trump's immediate reaction to the attack was to have Rudy start calling Senators and telling them to delay the vote long enough for swing state legislatures to overturn their state elections.
Or, perhaps, just as a matter of logic, you're jumping to conclusions not in evidence.
What "scheme"? If you mean insurrection, say so, don't pussy foot around it. Whatever word you use, a lot of people did no see it that way; our attitude is much closer to "what a bunch of clowns", and then we found out there is video of those clowns having doors opened for them by capitol police, being escorted around the corridors by capitol police, and the DNC one-sided committee lied, destroyed evidence to the contrary of their bias, and basically committed mass perjury for months.
And you wonder why those of us don't believe Trump was part of a "scheme".
Dood! You need to get back to the basics. I don't care if you think it was close to civil war or not, for this comment. I'm talking about your logic, your puzzle over where you went wrong with (a) or (b), and the answer is that there is a third choice which you cannot see.
(Going to be idiots telling me of course there was an insurrection, I'm a nazi, yada yada yada. You too need to pay attention. I'm talking about his assumptions which limit his choices to (a) and (b) are invalid, not about whether there was an insurrection.)
and then we found out there is video of those clowns having doors opened for them by capitol police, being escorted around the corridors by capitol police,
This is as bad an argument as, "It failed, so no big deal."
"I saw Al Capone peacefully talking to a cop. So how is it possible that five minutes later he shot the guy?"
Yup, another idiot who barfs out his own message and forgets to respond to Post's article. Logic not your strong point.
So I suppose that means that I can't really complain if he brings about the kind of change he talked about: imposing high tariffs on imported goods, deporting large numbers of undocumented immigrants... That's what we want, so it's going to be hard to complain if/when he tries to give it to us—at least, not if he does so via legal and constitutional means.
Completely disagree. First, it's not what "we" want. It might be what about 51% of the country wants, but that's not "we," and certainly not me. We are bound to obey those laws that pass, but are in no way barred from criticizing them, challenging them in court, working to have them repealed, etc. We have every right to do those things.
But Trump doesn't have that right?
No one has denied him that right.
He was fought to a standstill on almost everything. Sad but true: a do nothing government at least isn’t making things worse. I expect, or hope, for much of the same.
Ironically, the one thing he wasn’t stuffed on, repealing Obamacare, he queered by shooting his own loud mouth off.
It took me a bit, but I think I'm following:
- John McCain's 11th-hour turnaround killed Republicans' plan to repeal Obamacare.
- You blame Trump for it (because he'd said some mean things about McCain).
Hmmm... Sorry, not buying it. McCain is solely responsible for his disgraceful act (stabbing his voters in the back).
Correct. I blame him for it. This is indepent of whether repeal was a good idea.
His loud mouth, which you adore, got him a real problem. Why do you blame McCain? Blame the one who didn't self edit.
bernard11:Completely disagree. First, it’s not what “we” want. It might be what about 51% of the country wants, but that’s not “we,” and certainly not me. We are bound to obey those laws that pass, but are in no way barred from criticizing them, challenging them in court, working to have them repealed, etc. We have every right to do those things.
I don't disagree at all. Maybe I should have been clearer when using the phrase "I can't really complain if ..." Take tariffs, for instance. Assume Trump uses appropriate executive authority on Day 1 to raise tariffs on everything coming from China by 20%.
A truly terrible idea, and we all "have the right to criticize, challenge in court, work to have it repealed," as you say. But at the same time, the guy won the election and he made it pretty clear that's what he was going to do, so I can't say there's anything illegitimate or improper about him following through on his promises, terrible though the consequences may be.
David,
You don't like the tariffs; okay.
But how would you propose the deal with the massive production subsidies by the Chinese government to undercut critical US industries?
Easy: say thank you. Other countries taking money from their own citizens in order to give us stuff more cheaply is not something to complain about.
A predictably snottish, snobbish, elitist viewpoint from a guy who probably needs to spend more time chatting with guys who mow his lawn or dry clean his suits.
Seriously. Get a clue. Look in the mirror. You're the reason Trump won.
This line of argument sucks.
Look. Say I talk to some of the people you mention and they feed me Trumpist BS. What should I do? Nod in agreement? Walk away? Start talking about the baseball playoffs?
Is there something wrong with calmly disagreeing, and providing reasons? Apparently, according to some on the right, doing that is insulting, elitist, whatever.
I don't get it. If my gas station attendant and I disagree I'm an asshole, and he's the salt of the Earth. Please explain.
Trump supporters did calmly disagree. At the ballot box. You lost.
Deal with it.
(quietly, in private)
Perhaps you could start by taking a step back and reflecting on how reflexively characterizing whatever they say that you don’t agree with as “Trumpist BS” caused you to miss the entire point of the exercise. Then go back and try again.
Trumpist BS means MAGA lies. Why should we entertain a bunch of lies?
If this was actually about policy differences or something, you'd have a point. But it doesn't seem to be, as the comments here show. It's just some sort of class-based cult. Don't let America devolve into class-based cultism, is my message to MAGA.
I voted for neither asshole, but honestly, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose one, I'd have told you to shoot me.
I have faith that our institutions will survive Trump. And to the extent Trump has coherent policy positions, some of them are actually good (much deregulation, for example), as opposed to Harris, who has zero good policy positions.
I also think that the Russian conspiracy disinfo peddled by the Clinton campaign with the *assistance* of the FBI was more damaging to our democracy than anything Trump did. The FBI took sides in an election, used it's powers improperly to spy on a presidential campaign and then interfere with the functioning of an elected government, and managed to never really be held accountable for it. That's way more damaging than anything Trump tried and failed to do.
I think Trump would have done less well if (1) the democrats had actually bothered to have a primary and choose a candidate who wasn't terrible, and (2) democrats hadn't engaged in what appears to be fairly frivolous lawfare against Trump. Only the Georgia case had any real legs (and we'll likely never see it actually litigated at this rate). Biden should have pre-emptively pardoned Trump like Ford pardoned Nixon, just to save us the needless political drama and let Trump fade into irrelevancy.
I want to reiterate - i detest Trump and did not vote for him. I also detest Harris. Give us better choices.
The comments here should demonstrate that the issue is not intelligence, it's judgement.
Lots of otherwise smart people have given up their critical thinking in order to believe that they want to. And what they want is all about blaming other people for life being hard.
This is not exclusive to MAGA - there's a big swath on the left too - but it does describe just about everyone in MAGA that I've interacted with regarding politics.
They are all nursing some injury, real or imagined, and blame someone that Trump is going to go against, be that immigrants or the elites or the libs or the media.
And women. Anyone else notice the he-man woman-haters' club getting bolder around here?
Populism like this comes in cycles. I don't know if there's any sociology about what sets it off. But it's a dangerous thing - other countries have wrecked themselves on it.
We'll have to see what happens to our policies, economy, and culture.
"just about everyone in MAGA that I’ve interacted with regarding politics."
Naturally. People you speak with always end up reinforcing your priors. Its uncanny.
You're open about how you're not here for facts at all, so dunno why you thought it worthy to chime in.
One might surmise, he lives in a bubble = Naturally. People you speak with always end up reinforcing your priors. Its uncanny.
Trump encouraged a protest that turned into a riot. Pretending that the protesters were actually aiming at the overturning of the election is like saying that the BLM riots were actually aimed at the Marxist overthrow of the US government (as was the stated platform of BLM). A group of right wing protesters who planned on invading the capital and overthrow the US government showing up unarmed is ridiculous on its face. They were stupid rioters who had the misfortune of having enough money to travel to riot in the capitol rather than attempting to burn down federal courthouses in their home town which it turns out, nobody cares about.
There's plenty of evidence the 'riot' was aimed at the validation of the electoral count. That's what makes it more than a riot.
But oh hey just on time to pivot yelling about Marxists.
"Trump encouraged a protest that turned into a riot."
Will people PLEASE stop forgetting that the break in at the Capitol was pre-planned by the Proud Boys, and began before anybody had time to reach the Capitol after Trump's speech?
Sure, some people who were at his protest arrived at the Capitol AFTER the riot had begun. But Trump's protest didn't turn into a riot, at worst it fed a riot somebody else had organized.
No body but you believes the Proud Boys were the only ones who planned J6 (nor your unmentioned FBI was behind it all theory), so complaining that people keep forgetting makes no sense.
Trump was the one who told the Proud Boys to "Be there, will be wild!"
You're absolutely right that the planning for the insurrection started well before Jan 6... by Trump!
They were not aiming to overthrow the government, but they were trying to overturn the election.
The purpose of the protest was to pressure Congress into overturning some of the electoral votes, or Pence into taking some action as presiding officer.
The first is legal as a procedure but there was no justification for using it that was not obviously corrupt. It’s like poll workers using their authority to not count spoiled ballots to throw our perfectly good ballots for a candidate they don’t like. The poll workers in this case being Congress and the ballots being the electoral votes. There was nothing wrong with the electoral votes.
The second thing they were hoping for, Pence tossing ballots, is not even a legal procedure.
What the crowd wanted was more or less exactly what Trump attempted in Georgia – buffalo officials into breaking the law. That's not insurrection.
Well, 'we' know who you are; I am sure you do NOT know who 'we' are.
“Just as a matter of logic, it must be that either (a) they don’t think that Trump was a participant in the scheme to overturn the 2020 election results, or (b) they don’t think that participation in such a scheme is disqualifying in this sense.”
Or (c) they saw Joe Biden take the oath of office and serve as President of the United States, so they don’t believe there was a “scheme to overturn the 2020 election results”, they believed it was SOMETHING ELSE. 2020 was an incredibly weird election, processes were all over the place.
And then the Democratic Party just couldn’t help itself, it tossed everyone from Grandma to her dog into jail for January 6th, instead of giving them the parking ticket fines they deserved. To say nothing of the attempt to legally persecute Trump. There really is no other way to put it.
So people saw there was “the law” and then there was “the law”, and it made them even more suspicious of the claim that Trump was trying to overthrow the 2020 election.
This one is on the Democratic Party, 100%. They completely and utterly overreacted, and that is the one thing you can never do when you are arguing from a position of moral superiority.
Don’t blame the people who tried to stop it and failed. Blame the people who did it.
Prominent Democrats have refused to accept the results of every presidential election they’ve lost this century. None of them—including the ones who refused to vote to certify the electoral votes—have faced any consequences, or even any real criticism.
What Trump did was worse, of course. And he also benefits from his own ineptitude: despite his efforts, there wasn’t any real possibility of his staying in office. But if you’re wondering how serious people could find election denial a venial sin, that might be a place to start looking.
Likewise, when you see a candidate whose conduct is “disqualifying”, it might be time to make any compromise you have to stop them, not to take advantage of the fact that they “can’t” win to push the most extreme agenda possible. Otherwise, you might find out that things aren’t quite so disqualifying after all.
I don't think it is serious to believe what Democrats have done (bitch and moan about election results) is anywhere near what Trump tried to do. Nor is it serious to trot out the Sideshow Bob defense. It's instead partisanship fueled by Trump's lies.
It seems like you know better and are merely describing why other people feel as they do. Fine. The problem is GOP senators also knew better and could have stopped Trump by convicting him and disqualifying him from future office. But, they did not do so because they also knew how the base felt and would have met the same fate as Liz Cheney. True profiles in cowardice.
“Prominent Democrats have refused to accept the results of every presidential election they’ve lost this century.”
Not true. This is an unusual intemperate comment from you.
After 201), Democrats in Congress, including Jamie Raskin, objected to certifying Trump’s electoral votes. None of them faced any consequences; Nancy Pelosi specifically said they had her “support”:
“I think people don’t want the day to pass without registering concerns. In some cases, members are concerned about voter suppression, in some cases they are concerned about Russian influence on our election. There are a number of concerns.”
I believe all of the objectors are still in Congress.
After 2004, Barbara Boxer joined dozens of democrats in the House to object to certifying Ohio’s votes, after months of loony conspiracy theories as nutty as anything Trump was putting out there. She won her next election by 10 points.
I assume I don’t need to go over 2000.
As I said, what Trump did is worse. But the people who don’t have any qualms about Democrats’ unseemly behavior shouldn’t be so shocked that their opponents have a similar blind spot.
Oh my god. A handful of protest votes versus a bona fide insurrection. If you're stupid enough to draw this comparison, you deserve Trump.
Prominent Democrats have refused to accept the results of every presidential election they’ve lost this century
I also take issue with this. To be sure, Dems have refused to certify the results. But that's tantruming/posturing. In retrospect, absolutely irresponsible. But not the same thing as actual refusal to accept.
You’re *this* close to getting it!
Many people were baffled by Trump's support during his first term too.
As the ad says, "Kamala stands for they/them. Trump stands for you."
Post suffers from Trump Derangement Syndrome. He makes no effort to compare Trump and Harris. He just rambles about how he hates Trump.
What to make of John Kelly? And General Milley? And the scores of Republicans who he picked as advisors who say he is a fascist and unfit for office? We’ve never seen anything like that before.
"We’ve never seen anything like that before."
I'll try to imitate Prof. Post's crisp logical reasoning (sarcasm):
I see two possibilities:
1. There's something really disturbing about Trump.
2. There's something really disturbing about "the scores of Republicans."
(I incline to the latter possibility.)
Anyone who says there’s something wrong with Trump, is disturbed. Is that it?
Trump showed up (quite a few members of) the "conservative" / Republican establishment as a bunch of hypocrites (as in: they don't really mean the things they say; they like the status quo). They hate his guts for it.
Calling someone a fascist is just a meaningless epithet. When I hear that, I assume the critic has nothing substantial or meaningful to say, and just has a personal grudge or personality dispute.
A generation of calling every conservative candidate a fascist seriously diluted the effect and efficacy of doing so.
I don’t recall McCain being called a fascist by as many people, including his former chief of staff. Or Romney. Or Marco Rubio. Or Nikki Haley. Or ...
Trump was not labeled like “every” conservative candidate.
You can find the usual suspects calling any Republican a fascist. Though even there, “every” is rather extreme.
That is a cheap shot way of trying to point to the median.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/madonna-likens-mccain-to-hitler-at-first-sticky-tour-stop-252353/
https://www.cnn.com/2015/09/24/politics/marco-rubio-debbie-wasserman-schultz-hitler/index.html
I don’t think it’s going to let me post any more links, but the guy who’s currently the president said Mitt Romney was going to reintroduce slavery.
Not that Trump is in any position to complain about intemperate rhetoric, of course. Or that republicans would be in any better position if they had to try to sound the alarm about an actual communist or something. But the years of crying wolf were, I think, a definite obstacle to trying to stop Trump (especially after so many people spent so much time enabling him).
Noscitur, have you seen previous examples of 4-star military officers calling a President they served, knew well, and worked with, a fascist who is unfit for the office, and a threat to the nation?
Please, get real.
Remember that Miley assured Ms. Pelosi that he would intervene should Trump try any adventurism. That should have been handled as a court martial offense. It may have even been treason under Stephen's definition of the term.
There is lots of blame to go around when it comes to undesirable behavior. Oh, I know. The Orange Clown's was worse.
Nico, I have no definition of treason of my own. I have pointed to Chief Justice Marshall's definition. I cannot see any point of connection between anything Milley did with Chief Justice Marshall's definition.
The same general who when told to ensure that congress was secured and to bring in any needed assets to do so completely blew him off?
He was impeached twice. Twice for very good reasons. Then, the political system failed to oust him for purely partisan reasons. To me, Trump is a failure of the American constitution. The president is just too powerful. It is too difficult to get rid of them. Parliamentary systems elect plenty of bad leaders, but it is simple to get rid of them: a simple vote of no-confidence.
I have my issues with out current political setup.
But Trump didn't get reelected due the Presidency being too powerful.
He was impeached twice. Republicans refused to convict.
The Supreme Court blocked a trial that would have taken place earlier this year. Would it have mattered? Not going to say "obviously not."
There is a provision to disqualify someone who committed insurrection that fits him to a "t." It was ignored.
The overall principle here, as the professor noted, is that there are limits & people simply think they were important enough to disqualify Trump.
POTUS being too powerful without proper checks helped.
that should be not important enough
The public has become flooded with right wing misinformation. Michael Tomasky’s article in The New Republic sums it up.
They actually believe the economy is bad (it is not), that migrants are a criminal threat (they’re not), that climate change is not a serious problem (it is), and they blame Biden for the border crisis even though Trump recently ordered Republicans to back out of a deal that would have fixed it.
I’m hoping Trump will soon royally screw up (like ordering a nuclear strike now that there’s no John Kelly around to talk him out of it) but then I think of the lives lost.
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. You must think we're really gullible. (We sure proved you wrong though!)
"Trump recently ordered Republicans to back out of a deal that would have fixed it."
That is misinformation. The deal would have let in 5000 migrants a day, and most Republicans were against it before Trump agreed that it was a bad deal.
Well, COVID did help him lose the first time, but the 22A allegedly will stop him this time.
Mr. Post, you haven't been paying attention to the comments here in this blog. The hayseeds here have been saying for several years we are not a democracy but rather a 'constitutional republic'. A national democracy implies a check on individual state power to revive slavery or disenfranchisement or any other ancient hatreds the backwards state wishes to enjoy again. What do you think all this dancing around the bonfire here this past week is really about?
No, Post writes this as if he is trying to understand the Trump voter, but there is no sign that he reads pro-Trump comments or listens to pro-Trump voters.
Roger S: Post writes this as if he is trying to understand the Trump voter, but there is no sign that he reads pro-Trump comments or listens to pro-Trump voters.
Not true!! I read all the comments, including all pro-Trump comments. None of them persuades me that Trump didn't participate in a scheme -- call it an insurrection if you like -- to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Do you think I'm wrong about that??
Prof
I’m glad you read comments but with some commenters you’re wasting your time.
You read without understanding, Professor Post.
You hear people speaking, but you do not understand the meaning of what they are saying. Or why they say it. And this unsettles you. And many others.
Get out and see the country. Interact.
Since this is an occasionally libertarian blog, I leave you with this quote. In a moment of introspection, ponder it.
"If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn." --- Ayn Rand
"You read without understanding, Professor Post. "
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/11/11/monday-open-thread-79/?comments=true#comment-10795180
That is you completely missing an extraordinarily simple point. Perhaps you shouldn't try to chastise others for alleged comprehension issues.
Then again, you aren't known for your self-awareness.
Two points-
1. I think that a lot of people truly don't understand the seismic shift in the media ecosystem, especially for the younger people. I knew this was likely to be bad when I was told by someone who just went to a "typical" New England liberal arts college that the men there had a lot of Trump supporters, and he (as a liberal male) was actually in the minority. Not true every where, but it's a big change. And the reason is because they are getting their news from tiktok, and podcasts, and youtube.
2. The other side of this is, of course, that politics is now entirely about demonizing the other side. You can see some of it here. People who are like, "I don't want to talk about Trump, but let me tell ya about how bad the DEMS WOULD BE!!!!!" We've had over two decades (and two administrations) of the same people talking about camps, or whatever ... all of it BS, of course, because it never happens (and wouldn't) yet they can't realize that just because someone has a different way to make the country better, doesn't mean that they are evil people.
And it's the second things that bothers me. Because most of the issues people have with Trump are, in fact, real issues that are separate from his party affiliation. But when everything is viewed through a tribal lens, we keep having the same stupid debates.
Anyway, I think the next four years will probably be pretty eye opening if Trump does even a small percentage of the things that he said he would. We will see.
Indeed, it is very sad that people viewed Trump's conduct through a tribal lens (you see it here in all the comments about Democrats being just as bad, when those comments are driven by tribalism, not reason). GOP Senators know better, but did not want to end up as Liz Cheney did once the GOP base went full tribal.
If I lived in a swing state, I would vote for Ted Cruz before I voted for a Democrat who tried to steal an election.
Trump ran on his record, and his plans to make America great again. Only about 10% was demonizing his opponents. Harris was about 70% demonizing Trump, 20% pro-abortion, and 10% everything else.
I can agree with 1,2.
In the end, I think President Trump and VP Harris want the same thing: A strong, healthy and vibrant America.
They have very different visions on how to achieve it.
Whereas I think that Trump literally could not care less about America, except as it reflects on him.
You keep saying we don't get why people voted for Trump, lookng past Jan 6 and Trump trying to steal the election. But, you have yet to explain how they looked past Jan 6 (I offered 4 reasons above which you dismissed).
And now, you say you agree with loki. But, his point was partisanship has become so toxic, that people are unable to see Jan 6 for what it is (a non-partisan attack on democracy). Something tells me you don't agree with his conclusion.
With our current partisanship, Nixon would have gotten away with Watergate.
I see J6 as a 'Capitol Building Riot' and a damned national disgrace, which it was.
How do you look past Trump's role in provoking the riot with his lies about election fraud, and his overall attempt to steal the election (Jan 6 was only one part, the climax).
I’d like everyone here to look at some VC posts from maybe 2011, actually just the comments.
Yes, there were disagreements, some virulent, but no batshit flights from reality. Which is about 40% here.
There are many more trolls than there used to be, a reflection of increased tribalism or perhaps the platform hosting the blog.
That's right, there were no posts and crazy as what Post and Somin write.
You’re just a mosquito. Muted.
go back to (a).
Trump observed election fraud (using his own somewhat idiosyncratic sensor), and suggested a LEGAL STRATEGY to achieve what he believed to be the true results of the election.
The strategy was ill conceived, and had no chance of passing the SC even if everyone including Pence had participated.
It was not in any sense an extra-constitutional action, beyond the fact that it wasn't legally well founded. There's a difference between crackpot legal strategies and a proposal to use an armed force to replace congress with a more sympathetic body. Even though both are "unconstitutional", one is working from within the bounds of the legal system, and thus not much offensive.
Good points. And whatever you think of Trump's legal strategy, it was not nearly as offensive as using the DoJ to persecute political enemies with bogus charges, as Biden/Harris did.
And I didn't vote for him either (I left President blank). And he still won comfortably and did better in almost every demographic. There just aren't that many of us.
In summarily rejecting (a), all you do is confirm that you remain in your little bubble and have failed to make any attempt to understand the people who disagree with you.
Post channeling his inner Pauline Kael, "How could Nixon have won? I don't know anyone who voted for Nixon." Doesn't everyone see thing the way my I effete friends in academia and I see them in our bubble? Not everyone sees the events of January 6 in the MSNBC-like characterization Post relates. An "armed mob" in which precisely zero members were armed. A "scheme" to "overturn an election" functionally identical to the "scheme" launched by Democrats in 2000 in 2016, minus the unhinged, hyperbolic hysteria from the other side.
In American history, there is certainly one clearly stolen presidential election, that of 1876. There were, at the end of the counting, twenty "contested" electoral votes. An Electoral Commision of eight Republicans and seven Democrats voted 8-7 to award every contested vote to Republican candidate Rutherford Hayes, who was declared the winner over Democrat Samuel Tilden 185-184.
One of the Republican members of that commission was Rep. James Garfield of Ohio. He would be elected President four years later.
“How could Nixon have won? I don’t know anyone who voted for Nixon.”
She didn’t say that.
Another piece of right wing disinformation which has become accepted as fact.
Fitting, I suppose, since Prof. Post didn’t say that either.
Yes, I know she didn't exactly say that (though, in fact, she expressed the functionally equivalent sentiment). I almost avoided it as I figured some pedant would probably point that out, while evading the overriding, obvious point. Post, like so many members of our increasingly dumber class of "elites" lives in a bubble, all but concedes he doesn't understand his fellow Americans, and will make no attempt to.
I fear the Democrats will learn nothing from this election, only becoming more frustrated, angrier, and more violent, making any unification of this country all the more difficult, if nigh impossible.
An “armed mob” in which precisely zero members were armed. A “scheme” to “overturn an election” functionally identical to the “scheme” launched by Democrats in 2000 in 2016,
You know that none of this MAGA BS is true. You're using it just like Trump has hoped you'd use it: as cover and self-justification. It's the Roger Stone philosophy: you don't have to be on the side of truth as long as you have a talking point and never give it up.
What we learned in 2024 isn't really that surprising: more than half of Americans are willing to delude themselves in order to believe what feels good.
Actually, she expressed exactly the opposite sentiment. She was not cluelessly illustrating that she lived in a bubble by saying, "Nixon couldn't possibly have won; nobody I know voted for him." She was saying, "I acknowledge that I live in a bubble that doesn't include Nixon supporters."
"an attempt to subvert the peaceful transfer of executive power through unconstitutional extra-judicial"
No, that did not happen. We had a peaceful transfer of power, and no one interfered with that. On J6 we had a riot where some tried to put pressure on Congress to do more to insure a valid vote. That's all.
Roger S: We had a peaceful transfer of power, and no one interfered with that. On J6 we had a riot where some tried to put pressure on Congress to do more to insure a valid vote. That’s all.
Wake up, Roger S. The fake electors? The pressure on Pence? The calls to State election officials?
DGP
The fake electors were standing by, in case they were appointed by the states. Pence said on Jan. 4 that the election skeptics would "have their day in Congress", and Trump was just asking Pence to do what he promised. Trump called the Georgia officials to make sure all the votes were counted. The decision on the electoral votes was made by Congress, not the rioters, and a peaceful transfer of power took place on Jan. 20, 2021.
I’m not a Trump supporter and have never voted for him. However I live in a deep blue state where my vote for President has no consequence so I can vote for a third party candidate without a guilty conscious.
I believe that Trump is a pretty horrible person. I didn’t like his attempts to prevail in 2020 but I don’t see that he did anything illegal – just very shady stuff.
He is enough of a narcissist that I think it’s quite possible that he really believed that the 2020 election was “rigged” since no candidate as “perfect” as him could possibly have lost. If he did truly believe that, I would expect him to attempt to counter any such “rigging” – as President it would be his duty to do so. This is quite different than, for example, trying to stay in office past January 20, 2029 at 12:00 as that is clearly disallowed by the Constitution and he would not even have been on the ballot. I think there is virtually no chance that he would attempt to do so and effectively zero chance that he would be successful (unless the incoming President invited him to the White House or he’s on a public tour, Trump would be a trespasser after that time and would be removed using whatever force was necessary by the Secret Service who doesn’t look kindly upon trespassers in the White House).
Trump didn’t drive the violence of the Jan 6 riot and attempts to claim that he did based on his speech on Jan 6 are ridiculous. He specifically said in that speech [emphasis added]:
Some point to the sentence where he said:
and claim it was a call for violence. The problem with that interpretation is that he used the words fight, fighting, or fights about 20 times in that speech. In some cases it was describing what others (such as Rudy and Jim Jordan) had done in the past and none of these people acted violently. In no case was it referring to past violence and I therefore see no reason to attach that meaning to any of his uses of the term.
Those who voiced concerns, and continue to do so, about Trump becoming a dictator are being disingenuous in an attempt to discredit the duly elected President-elect or are uninformed idiots.
If I lived in a state where my vote for President had any chance of being consequential, I probably would have voted for Trump. For one thing, he’s a known quantity and didn’t do a horrible job in his last term whereas Harris is an unknown quantity whose views seem to shift with the winds. For another thing, Trump will be out of the office four years after being inaugurated and I don’t think there’s much he will do that will have a long term negative impact on the country. Harris, on the other hand (if she had won and Democrats had swept Congress) would have almost certainly take the US yet further down the “government handouts” route at a time when we still haven’t recovered from Great Society imposed over 50 years ago. Increasing dependency of the populace yet further on “big brother” is very difficult to reverse and takes at least one or two generations to reverse.
Oh, and the Supreme Court – Thomas and Alito are not getting any younger.
I am, however, saddened to see that it appears almost certain that the House will be controlled by the Republicans for a couple years – I would have preferred that the Democrats had taken the House given that Republicans will control the Senate and that Executive branch will be headed by Trump.
I had always thought, to the extent I had occasion to think about it, that pretty much everyone felt pretty much the same way.
I didn’t. If everyone thought that, there were many avenues to stop him. Or, spend more effort to say he was disqualifying.
My hope was the same in 2016. ENOUGH people cared that he was unfit — now with a lot more evidence — for him to lose.
The contributors here are not a great sign that there is a clear understanding Trump is in a special way bad.
Eugene Volokh voted Libertarian. Harris loses and you saw what he latched on to.
One or more other people — going by their posts — voted for Trump. One person spoke of ‘lesser evils’ which had shades of “two evils” in 2016 (that sort of language is akin to rooting for the Dodgers or Yankees … people won’t be ashamed either way) — we saw how that went.
One person in the past voted for Hillary Clinton but then went back to their comfort level — “I’m a reasonable Republican, I’m going to work with the fascists since someone has to be” mode.
People pointed to the economy [I put aside the many things Democrats did to help it & how Trump’s policies would worsen it] and other things (like the media environment) to explain.
A basic reason is that people still think Trump is a credible person. Not all of them are like the Trump loyalists who will sneer at those who criticize him (or will say “Biden is as bad”). Some will deep down be a tad uncomfortable about it.
The emperor has no clothes. Not enough care. It is something we will have to face up to.
Trump is a felon.
He has multiple civil judgments, including one involving sexual abuse, against him.
He was indicted three times for major crimes against the state.
[His term in office will be in effect obstruction of justice given the rule that he can't be tried while in office even without things like a constitutionally dubious self-pardon.]
He is constitutionally disqualified (like the 14A, sec. 2 penalty, Congress did not enforce).
He is a national security threat.
I’m sorry. Let’s go back to normally scheduled programming and talk about his Cabinet picks.
+1
This situation would have been unimaginable before 2015.
I mean, the party of moral policing just elected a guy who cheated on his pregnant wife with a porn star, and used his business to cover it up.
And that's probably the most wholesome of his sex scandals.
I thought we weren't supposed to talk about Hunter Biden
That's "President" Trump to you
The Felonies and Civil Judgments are Bullshit, don't ask me, ask the 70+ million peoples who voted for him.
and go ahead and try to kill him, even if you were to succeed somehow, you get JD, who's even "Trumpier"
Oh, the Bronx is a Shithole, try taking a shower before stinking up a Classy Establishment like this place.
Frank
There's no denying what happened last Tuesday. But at the same time, Trump is going to end up with ~50% of the vote. While that's 60% too high to be reasonable, we should not make sweeping pronouncements about what Trump's election says about the country that would be different if 2% of the voters had voted differently.
I mean, I agree … approximately 50% of the vote is not a sweeping mandate.
But the thing that bothers me so much is that he got that much, despite doing and saying and, um, being so many things that would have disqualified any other candidate. It’s crazy-making.
Again, this isn’t about policy. It’s wondering how people in this country just brushed aside all those issues and still were like, “Eh, why not?”
I guess they were all wearing rose-colored glasses; because when you’re wearing them, the red flags just look like flags.
Agreed.
The worst and scariest election outcome in my lifetime.
“this isn’t about policy”
Post took time out of his rant to discuss his policy differences with Trump.
I was told that unless I voted for Harris I would be condoning fascism. Even voting for a third party (which I ultimately did) wouldn’t save me from moral obloquy, my duty was to hasten to the Democratic plantation and rivet their chains on me, to protect the country from Trump and his National Socialist agenda.
If we’re going to harp on the previous election, 2020 saw sometimes-deadly riots supposedly against police brutality, but which instead targeted retail establishments and security guards. The duty of Democrats was to denounce this rioting and demand that the rioters return peaceably to their homes, but sympathy for the rioters, and minimizing what they were doing, was the order of the day. Democrats found some mobs to be convenient to their cause, but now they’re taking up the crusade against anti-democratic mobs.
And the rioters didn't even have to mask up, because the virus would respect the racial-justice work of the rioters.
Nobody has ever accused Trump of having a National Socialist agenda.
Comparing Jan 6 to BLM is stupidly lame. BLM wasn't trying to take over the country, and no, Democrats didn't condone any of the violence, you made that up. There are violent right-wing riots that Republicans have encouraged, like the dumb truckers and various white supremacists. Those are all totally different from Trump's insurrection. There's been nothing like it before, at least not in a hundred years, on the right or the left.
100 years ago was the era of the revived Ku Klux Klan which made inroads into both major parties.
Harris raised bail for suspects - which might be seen as support for the presumption of innocence except for her support for denying bail to alleged rioters she *didn't* approve of.
And so on.
I can’t even discern a point from that collection of talking-fragments. You trying out the “weave” since there’s no gas left in your argument?
Since we're talking percentages, I've got one for you
100%, that's how much of the Oval Orifice "45/47" will occupy, percentage of Surpreme Picks he'll get, here's another one
0 %, chance that any US forces fight to defend You-Crane.
Frank
"Americans are proud—justifiably—of living in a place where “we, the people,” get to decide who our rulers are going to be. "
Yeah, that’s not right. We would be rightly ashamed of such a thing and instead are proud to be our own rulers at all times. We choose agents – and delegate our power to them.
"We elected the guy who had tried to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States to be our President. Like a lot of people, I'm trying to understand what that means..."
It means this: A majority of Americans disagree with your statement above.
It mean this: You'll never understand that because you think, much like other folks, that a majority of the American public is wrong.
Take a step back and ask yourself why you have a minority opinion in the count of public opinion rather than question the validity of the majority.
Take a step back and ask yourself why you have a minority opinion in the count of public opinion rather than question the validity of the majority.
This from someone who believes the 2020 election was stolen no doubt.
The MSNBC-level quality of Post's emotional rant aside, we all know he is being intellectually disingenuous. He did not vote for Trump in 2020, and even if the events of January 6 had never happened, he would not have voted for Trump this time. But he'd still be here with his cringeworthy moral chastisement for the country; he'd just be offering a different rationalization for why the voters of this country should have elected a Marxist so agonizingly dumb, she'll probably be teaching law at an Ivy League school next semester.
Oh look, Post is a complete and total retard. Even assuming that the crowd wasn’t full of FBI agents and informants, which it was, if Trump’s plan was for the crowd to storm the building and stop certification that would require two things. The first would be for there to be barely any capitol police presence around the building. However, that wasn’t true until the pipe bomber, that they still mysteriously have zero leads on even with all the cameras and other surveillance tech in DC, caused the majority of the police to be drawn away. Secondly, Trump would have had to have known that when he told Milley and other pentagon officials to make sure Congress was secure and to bring in any assets that were needed to accomplish such including National Guard, that they would completely blow him off.
Or Trump wanted to have troops there so he could turn the insurrection into a military coup.
See, that's how the claim he was guilty of insurrection is unfalsifiable. Send troops, don't send troops? Makes no difference, you can explain anything he does as furthering insurrection.
No, the claim he’s guilty of insurrection is unfalsifiable because he openly engaged in insurrection. You’re asking us not to believe our lying eyes because of a couple offhand comments that didn’t amount to anything.
You guys think if the bank robber told his mom “I’m not going to go out and rob a bank” on the day of the robbery, that’s sonehow proof he didn’t do it. You’re simply laying the psychological groundwork to give yourselves permission to believe the indefensible. The rest of us see right through it.
https://newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox
This explains much of the commenting here.
People who are stuck on "hE tRiEd To OvErThRoW tHe GoVeRnMeNt!!!" will now have to contend with the fact that the majority of voters disagree with that assessment.
If you think some unarmed people tried to storm the capital in order to overthrow the government, rather than seeing a bunch of unarmed people who were overwhelmingly allowed into and escorted through these government buildings, well that's your version of it.
The rest of us, not so much.
What an actual coup looks like is when the duly nominated candidate gets tossed for the DEI hire that, ironically, he hired and gets to run for president without ever winning a presidential primary. The stunt was appalling and it failed. Live with it.
I think we have an electorate that does one or more of:
1. So takes the Republic for granted that they can’t conceive of its going away, and/or
2. Is so apathetic and self-centered that they’d rather get a tax cut than be able to have a say in their government, and/or
3. Is genuinely afraid that if the Democrats come into power, their children will be abducted, indoctrinated, and come back with sex change surgery.
What your missing in your analysis is that elections are choices between the available options. It's a rational position to take that the Democrats politically refused to respect Democratic norms and allow President Trump to govern after the 2016 elections. That those efforts did not amount to rioting in the streets directly over the election results does not mean they were not every bit as significant as the events of January 6.
Given a choice between Trump and the head of a party which says those who hold libertarian or conservative principles are literal "garbage" or "deplorable" or bitter people clinging to their guns and their religion, it's not irrational to support Trump.
Further, the media and almost everyone on the left paid MASSIVE attention to any perceived misdeed by Trump, and virtually no attention to the corruption of President Biden's son and the (painfully obvious, to many) similar corruption of President Biden himself. So it may be rational, to a person most enamored of the rule of law and our democratic norms, to support Trump, because at least then you could rely on the media and others to do their job and call attention to those misdeeds while he is in office, a reliance that palpably doesn't exist for Democrat office holders in the current national environment.
As if. Just to point out one glaring flaw in your self-justification for supporting an obvious con man, the only person going to jail over a politically-motivated, partisan prosecution is Hunter Biden.
So far. The new administration has promised to do more prosecutions, exclusively of democrats. But Trump Nation will say that all of those prosecutions are bona fide, righteous, on the up-and-up, and in the service of justice. Much like the idea that voter fraud can only possibly be committed by democrats, or that evil is not a feature of all human beings, something that all people must struggle against, but exists only on the left. The right and republicans are God’s chosen people.
There is a 3rd, c) option: that most Americans don’t see what Trump did on Jan 6th as a “coup attempt.” you, the author, certainly see it that way, and that’s entirely fine: as you say, this is about *your* vote.
But consider the fact that many Americans did not feel that they were presented with the same 2 choices you outline above; that maybe it [Jan 6] wasn’t a great showing, but it’s no worse than any of the other nonsense politicians have gotten up to in the past 10, 15, 20 years.
It is also the case that Trump is a felon, a proven swindler and con artist, a sexual predator, etc.
Perhaps one thing that can be taken from Trump’s re-election is that never again will character – even criminality – be a relevant consideration in the selection of a president, provided their policies are preferred. Certainly no honest Trump voter can reasonably complain about any future candidate except on the basis of policy. Inside trader? Took bribes? Has henchmen connect to foreign governments? Had collections of semi-naked photos of 16/17yo girls? All irrelevant. Only policy matters.
Meanwhile, “I see you have convictions and lost civil suits for dishonesty, fraud, et cetera, and there have been many claims of sexual harassment against you, but I’m going to hire you because your resume and your assurances show you can do the specific job” said no Republican white-collar employer ever.
Bill Clinton was a felon(you didn't specify "Convicted"), a proven swindler, con artist, sexual predator, and now he's considered at least to have been a pretty successful POTUS
""broad inability of to understand Trump's political appeal except in terms flattering to their beliefs,"
You realize that's supposed to be a criticism, not a blueprint for forming your own arguments, right?
Dear David,
Why wait for the 2026 mid-terms? Why not get with like-minded lovers of democracy and have the FBI cook up another bogus investigation to hamstring the incoming Trump administration, maybe arrest one of his key players on BS charges, you know, like was done before?
No, that's not like what was done before.
Where have you been?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxNhjFrjXqI
Short memory, eh David.
It's not my memory that's a problem; it's your understanding of what happened that is.
I understand that the FBI had the transcript of Flynn's call with Kislyak, so the FBI's "briefing" with Flynn was BS. And that those cheering Comey's bragging of bankrupting Flynn and sending him to prison for 9 years (because he could, the incoming administration being too unorganized to insist on a lawyer be present during the interview) shows precisely "who we are." The "we" being the TDS addled leftists who call others "fascist" while cheering on blatant abuses of power.
If you had been in the audience when Wallace interviewed Comey, would you have cheered? Or would a pang of conscience tell you that this isn't actually who we are?
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2020/05/FlynnTranscripts.pdf
Just because you believe something doesn't make it true.