The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Critique of Justice Kagan's Supreme Court Ethics Reform Proposal
Could a panel of lower court judges evaluate ethics complaints against Supreme Court justices?
Over the summer, Justice Elena Kagan offered support for an ethics code for Supreme Court justices and suggested possible ways such a code could be enforced, such as through a panel of lower court judges. She reiterated this position earlier this month.
Would such a proposal work? James Burnham has doubts.
This proposal has several fundamental problems. For starters, it would give a future chief justice extraordinary power over his or her colleagues—power that some future, malevolent chief justice could easily abuse. By selecting the lower court judges who stand in judgment of the justices, the chief justice could put a thumb on the scale of those determinations. Gaining an upper hand on an intractable colleague would be as easy as stacking the ethics panel with that colleague's antagonists. We can certainly hope no judge would abuse such authority. But to borrow from the old adage—if judges were angels, no ethics panel would be necessary.
And consider this dynamic in the context of a problem facing the Court right now: leaks of confidential information. Last weekend, the New York Times printed an exposé on the most recent Supreme Court term, replete with details of internal memos, the justices' deliberations, and more. We have no idea who leaked this sensitive information to the Times—and particularly whether any justice was involved—but the leaks appear designed to undermine Chief Justice John Roberts and cast an unflattering light on the Court's majority in certain important decisions. The judiciary's ethical canons flatly prohibit politically motivated leaks of confidential judicial deliberations. Canon 4(D)(5) states: "A judge should not disclose or use nonpublic information acquired in a judicial capacity for any purpose unrelated to the judge's official duties." Presumably, a campaign to influence the chief justice and his colleagues by leaking "nonpublic information" to the New York Times would meet that description.
It's a fair question, then, how the proposed ethics panel would address this prima facie ethical violation at the Court. Someone at the Supreme Court provided confidential information to reporters. Would the chief justice's hand-selected panel of lower court judges conduct a leak investigation at the Court? Would the ethics panel have compulsory process over Court staff? What about the justices themselves? Could the ethics panel demand internal documents from the Court? Could the ethics panel sanction a law clerk, staff member, or justice who refuses to participate in its inquiry? These questions would arise immediately if such an institution existed.
It's also unclear how the proposed ethics panel would enforce its determinations. Allowing lower court judges to force the recusal of specific justices is a recipe for disaster: it would create the real prospect of an obscure judicial panel changing the outcome of an important Supreme Court case. Or perhaps the panel could go further and suspend offending justices? That would be even more calamitous, enabling the chief justice's lower court appointees to change the composition of the Court without regard to life tenure, presidential appointment, or Senate confirmation.
Russell Wheeler of the Brookings Institute offers a more sympathetic assessment of Kagan's proposal, but also acknowledges there are serious questions about how such a program would be implemented.
Is any such set of reforms necessary? Congress retains the authority to discipline justices that fail to engage in "good behavior" through impeachment -- and Congress could well enact or endorse a set of standards, the violation of which, would justify initiating an impeachment inquiry. The problem, of course, is that impeachment requires a broader political consensus about alleged misconduct that currently exists.
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Crazy how many lawyers and law professors simply just accept that we should have an institution exercising massive amounts of political power without any accountability whatsoever.
Also I don’t think that impeachment is the only remedy. Congress can also just make the ethics codes a criminal matter. And prosecute justices who violate it. If SCOTUS rules that unconstitutional, well, that’s a constitutional crisis on par with the self-pardon. And should lead to a complete refusal of Congress or the executive to abide by or enforce their orders.
without any accountability whatsoever…..Also I don’t think that impeachment is the only remedy
Er …. theres no remedy, except the actual remedy to be found in the constitution …. and wait I can think of some more ! Perhaps decaf tomorrow morning ?
Congress can also just make the ethics codes a criminal matter. And prosecute justices who violate it.
Sure, but whatever punishment they mete out can’t exceed Congress’s powers under Article III. In particular they can’t interfere with the judge’s exercise of his office during good behavior.
If SCOTUS rules that unconstitutional, well, that’s a constitutional crisis on par with the self-pardon.
Self pardon is not a constitutional crisis. There’s no constitutional limit on the pardon power that restricts self pardoning. Maybe there should be, but there isn’t. Wishin’ does not make it so. Neither does pretendin’.
And should lead to a complete refusal of Congress or the executive to abide by or enforce their orders.
You really do need to cut down on the caffeine.
Impeachment is an illusory remedy. You know it, I know it. It pales in comparison to the electoral and political accountability. People keep throwing that out there because they know its a fake remedy and
"Sure, but whatever punishment they mete out can’t exceed Congress’s powers under Article III."
They set up the Court subject to exceptions and regulations.
"In particular they can’t interfere with the judge’s exercise of his office during good behavior."
You can still be a justice while serving a criminal sentence.
"Self pardon is not a constitutional crisis."
The president declaring himself above the law actually would be a constitutional crisis. Just because you say it isn't doesn't mean it wouldn't be for everybody else.
"You really do need to cut down on the caffeine."
Maybe the Court should cut down on the bullshit and recognize some limits on both their authority and their actions when serving in a public role.
People keep throwing that out there because they know its a fake remedy
People keep throwing it out because it’s the remedy that’s there and is a perfectly workable remedy for actual ethics violations – that is to say ethic violations that two thirds of the Senate think are actual ethics violations.
It’s not an effective remedy for fake ethics violations that are unconvincing to one third plus one of the Senators.
Your objection to the remedy is simply that you want the bar to be lowered, because you would like Uncle Clarence to be ejected because his jurisprudence is not to your taste.
Fine – go change the constitution and make the bar lower.
The president declaring himself above the law actually would be a constitutional crisis. Just because you say it isn’t doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be for everybody else.
If the House and two thirds of the Senate are offended, they have a remedy. There’s no constitutional crisis just because you declare one. You have no role in the Constitutional scheme.
So missing the point.
The problem, of course, is that this is "all or nothing." And the Justices (and the Senate) understands this.
There are no real ethics issues, because a Justice can always say, "Eh, it doesn't apply." Which leads (as I stated) to habitual line stepping.
And since the ONLY remedy we have now is impeachment and removal, we end up in the same place. That's a huge deal! So ... how unethical does a Justice have to be before that even becomes an option? Forget the difference between de jure and de facto issues (de facto, no party will impeach one of "their justices"), the problem is that almost any ethical issue in isolation isn't worthy of impeachment.
This is why we need something. Because the system we have isn't working. It would be like ... imagine the criminal code only allowed a single punishment for all crimes- the death penalty. Well, a lot of things just couldn't be crimes because, C'mon, is that worth the death penalty?
Actually, I think the real "problem" is that a large degree of judicial independence was written into our Constitution, in order that the Constitution would actually in practice be binding law, not reduced to mere suggestions that could be ignored at will. And one of our parties finds that a problem, because it prevents them from intimidating the Court into allowing gross violations of amendments in the Bill of Rights that they find troublesome; Mostly, but not exclusively, the first two.
So you're trying to create a mechanism by which you can sanction the Justices who don't rule the way you want, without having to get buy in from the opposing party every time you do it.
"And one of our parties finds that a problem, because it prevents them from intimidating the Court into allowing gross violations of amendments in the Bill of Rights that they find troublesome; Mostly, but not exclusively, the first two."
Yeah. It really does suck how the Republican party hates the fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, and ninth amendments, huh?
No. You don't know what I think, and you just put everything in some kind of partisan warfare.
But here is the actual answer:
1. As a person who cares about the law (it's kinda ... my thing), I am genuinely worried about trends I am seeing in the judiciary.
2. Further, I have always believed that judges must be not only impartial, but seen to be impartial. The best judges are the ones that most internet randos have never heard of.
3. You're completely wrong about the ideals behind the judiciary when the Constitution was written; yes, they were going to be independent, but they were the least dangerous branch. Because they weren't deciding policy for the Country- that was for the Legislature and Congress.
Here Brett, let's try this out. Famously, Marshall established "judicial review" in 1803 by giving the Court a little power and not exercising it. When did the Supreme Court next declare a federal law unconstitutional?
4. Finally, I do not want this to check any particular person or side- I would want this to be PROSPECTIVE so everyone knows the rules going forward and abides by them.
I never thought that "integrity of the courts" was a partisan issue, yet here we are.
1. Which trend is that? Be specific.
2. That's nice.
3. Not exactly. Marshall institutionalized it, but the concept was certainly around before. See Federalist #78.
4. Really? What was your response to Obergefell v. Hodges? Did we need to check the judges there?
That you find the concept of judicial ethics rules can only be a partisan ploy is a pretty sad state to be in.
Nobody is saying judicial ethics rules can only be a partisan ploy. It's just that we haven't seen a counterexample yet.
That's highly convenient for you, isn't it?
It may be convenient, but it is also true.
Wow! So no problems with Justice Thomas' actions? The real partisan ploy is the lame rationalizing of that whole situation.
We have judicial ethics rules. Been working fine. That’s a big fat counterexample.
They just don’t cover the justices.
You are overdetermined and trying to pretend you are not. But you are also not doing your homework so you are not pretending very will.
Under our system, Supreme Court judicial ethics is what 34 senators say it is.
No. That is the current remedy the system has. It’s not the exclusive remedy and more importantly, whatever they do or not vote on is independent of what is or is not ethical behavior.
Do you think the recent attempts to exert pressure by partisan media organizations, partisan complaints regarding the current make up of the court, partisan exploration of packing the court with a party's preferred, party-aligned justices, and partisan commentary from the legislative branch are not in fact driven by partisan politics? Because that level of naivety seems awfully implausible.
No I don’t think court packing is why Alito and Thomas have stories about them.
And even if they did ethics rules are not going to ding them unless they do something in the future.
Going to slightly disagree with this. Political ideology and partisanship are based on the values and morals of individuals and societies. So are the rules or norms surrounding judicial ethics rules. What Lee doesn't realize is that by rejecting criticism of the court as imposing fake ethical standards, he's actually announcing an ethical standard of his own that is advanced by his fellow partisans. And the ethical stance is that officials getting lots of gifts and money from private parties is either not a bad thing, or actively a good thing. Of course ethical rules or norms that disagree with that stance are "fake" to him.
But individuals and society are under no obligation to pretend this set of values is good or valid in the name of avoiding partisanship. He can call it a partisan ploy if he wants, but at the end of the day, society will likely come to the conclusion that his values are bad and he should feel bad.
And the ethical stance is that officials getting lots of gifts and money from private parties is either not a bad thing
It’s not a bad thing. Unless the private parties have business before the court.
Likewise I have no difficulty in Kagan getting money from Harvard, so long as she recuses when Harvard has a case before the court. Nor with judges getting large advances on books that nobody really wants to read – so long as those who finance these douceurs don’t have business before the court.
I also think, as I mentioned in the past, that ethics rules that touch de minimis benefits are silly. I recall there was a case a few years back where one Justice had $5,000 worth of stock in a company, so the sum at stake was whatever profit or loss he might have made from the effect of the ruling. ie about $100 maximum. The point of financial ethics rules is to police bias. If the financial effect is trivial it simply shows the rule to be ridiculous.
But I confess I’m generally sceptical on judicial ethics rules, particularly in today’s climate where judges are chosen for their political biases. There is a pretense that they’re not biased, but I’m not buying it, at least not in many cases. If they’re picked with the strong hope and expectation that they’ll be biased, getting picky with ethics rules seems rather precious.
Right. Your ethics and values are bad and you should feel bad.
"judges getting large advances on books that nobody really wants to read"
I hear this line a lot. Jackson's book is at number 4 on the NYT Bestsellers list. Some people certainly are interested in reading (or at least buying) some the books of some justices.
"But I confess I’m generally sceptical on judicial ethics rules"
Cynical people are often skeptical, but the point of the "if men were angels" quote was not "so let 'em go nuts" it was "so we have to have rules for them."
It’s not a bad thing. Unless the private parties have business before the court.
This is far too narrow. One need not have a direct personal matter before the court to have a strong interest in the outcome. SCOTUS decisions can and do affect lots of people. It’s silly to argue that only the actual litigants care about the cases.
Would you really say that about Dobbs or Bruen, for example? There are tons of individuals and organizations who are not litigants who nonetheless have strong interests.
Lee Moore wrote: "It’s not a bad thing. Unless the private parties have business before the court."
I guess it depends what exactly you mean by "business before the court." Does it mean they are the actual party before the court, or does it mean that the decision would have a massive effect on the success or failure of their business and/or personal affairs?
"I hear this line a lot. Jackson’s book is at number 4 on the NYT Bestsellers list."
NYT has openly admitted their "best sellers list" has little to do with sales.
There's also sales and "sales".
"Sales" purchased with other people's money are not an indication of public interest in your book.
Sarcastr0, you're the sort of guy who, if somebody said, "That accountant is an embezzler!" would say, "that you find the concept of accounting can only be a form of criminality is a pretty sad state to be in".
Of course it's possible, as a theoretical matter, to want judicial ethics enforcement mechanisms purely to enforce ethics. It's just not what is going on right now.
I read him to be saying that the fact you think everyone lobbying for judicial ethics reform has partisan motives reflects more on your motivation for things than it does on the people lobbying for reform.
You don't have to believe me, but I am not affiliated with any political party, and I "Want judicial ethics enforcement mechanisms purely to enforce ethics." At least I think I do.
Fine, so come up with a scheme that is not vulnerable to political manipulation.
The devil is in the details – both the details of the ethics rules (anything even slightly handwavy is open to manipulation) and the details of the process. Which you will recall is part of the punishment.
FWIW I’m quite happy with the current scheme, where the political manipulation is right out there in the open. The House impeaches its enemies for any reason or none; and the Senate generally ignores them, except in the most egregious cases. And in each case the voters get to express their opinion on the performance of their representaives at fairly frequent intervals.
The cry for some other process that excludes the wicked machinations of politicians merely moves the machination elsewhere. Unless you have a good idea. In detail.
btw I'm the one who has come up with the best scheme so far to abstract the decision on removing a judge from the political consequences of the numbers game on the court - see immediately below on a convention whereby the removed judge is replaced by one of the same political stripe.
loki13 : de facto, no party will impeach one of “their justices”
Assumes facts not in evidence. Party A will have no difficulty at all impeaching a Party A appointed Justice, so long as Party A agrees there is an actual, and substantial, ethics violation and gets to pick the replacement. Which is achievable naturally when Party A has the White House and a Senate majority. But can also be achieved by Party B agreeing to replace the impeached Justice with one of Party A's choosing.
Which, if Party B is genuinely concerned by the Justice's ethics, rather than the make up of the court, Party B will have no problem agreeing to.
Obviously if Party B insists that it must choose the replacement, and if that results in the Justice not being impeached and removed, then we do not need calculators to compute what Party B really feels about the importance of "ethical violation" per se.
In short the impeachment remedy works fine for actual ethics violations, but not for let's pretend so we can adjust the make up of the court "violations." Which is how it should be.
At least one party won’t just accept a black eye these days for the statesmanship jollies, even if it can pick the replacement.
But also baking in party politics to judicial replacements seems bad.
You're going to pretend that party politics is not already the be all and end all of judicial replacements ?
Yes, I will pretend that. Versus locking it in forever.
Again: why isn't it just as likely that republican senators (and yourself) are simply pretending the ethics issues are fake to score political points? I mean isn't it awfully convenient that actions which would be a huge scandal in any civil service office are somehow "fake" ethics issues made up by partisans when they are directed at justices you like?
Also, has it ever occurred to you that the "ethics" and values you and your fellow travelers have are actually bad? That what you think is ethical is normatively unethical under most moral frameworks and aren't typically tolerated by most of society?
George Washington Plunkett thought there was nothing wrong with "Honest Graft" but he was wrong. And people then and now have recognized that no matter what he claimed. So too with you and Justice Thomas. Taking millions of dollars in gifts from a political donor isn't ethical actually. And you calling it fake simply demonstrates that you're just as wrong as Plunkett. The fact that 1/3+1 of Senators might support the concept of honest graft doesn't make it anymore ethical!
The question is though, why should pay any attetion your take on judicial ethics. Nobody's elected you. You're just a mouth on the internet.
Whereas those Senators you don't think much of are mouths that have gone to the trouble of getting themselves elected, by the people.
We're going to breeze past those elected guys and gals, and the rules in Article 1, because some internet rando called lawtalkingguy is unhappy ?
We already ran you through the distinction between the political branches and the judiciary.
You want to pull a nothing matters on this message board go ahead that’s not a revelation. But it makes you look like you are avoiding something.
The ethics of the Supreme Court are policed by the political branch via the impeachment process, not by the judicial branch. That's why Senators are the important voices (after the House has had its say) , not random internet mouther-offers.
There does appear to be a proposal for junior members of the judicial branch to supervise the ethics of the senior members of the judicial branch. It is a silly idea for the reasons that Adler explains.
It's a bit funny to see the impeachment argument given as a "respect democracy" one. Yeah, if you can't convince the officials of two-thirds of a body where Wyoming gets the same votes as California, then you're not respecting democracy!
It’s a respect the constitutional procedure that’s already there and don’t try to weasel your way round it because you want to “rebalance” the Supreme Court, argument. It would apply just the same absent the 17th amendment.
The judicial ethics kerfuffle is just the latest verse of the same old song which we’ve been hearing ever since Scalia died. It’s not fair WE don’t control the court ! Whether it’s whining about Garland, Kavanaugh the rapist, Thomas the mobster’s patsy or Alito the KKK guy, court packing and now judicial ethics, the tune doesn’t change.
Why should we "respect the constitutional procedure that's already there?" It's not sacrosanct.
And you might be right about the motive regarding current calls for reform. But that doesn't seem to negate the overall question of: would it be better to have a Court with more or less mechanisms of accountability? What if these rules kicked into place a decade from now when we don't know which side they'd favor? What's your opinion then?
Why should we “respect the constitutional procedure that’s already there?” It’s not sacrosanct.
Well we should respect it while it's there. If it gets replaced that's different.
So the question is what would be better ?
The OP suggestion that Adler reports seems to be a procedure whereby junior judges (ie unelected bureaucrats) sit in judgement on senior judges (also unelected bureaucrats.) This seems unwise to me. Any kind of system that involves processes and procedures within the government bureaucracy is suspect.
And in any case where the rules have to be compared with the facts you're going to need a finder of fact. If the question is the disciplining of a member of the Supreme Court, I can't think of a more suitable jury than the Senate. Just having an ordinary trial in Poughkeepsie puts a great deal of pressure on the venue selection. Better to have a national jury, which the Senate can do fine.
And I think it's a good thing that a two thirds majority is required, as that requires some across the aisle consensus.
So my preferred replacement regime would involve some kind of supermajority in a National Jury. And I'm struggling to see how one would do better than the one we've already got.
Lee, aren’t jurors supposed to be unbiased? It’s hard to imagine a more biased group in an impeachment case than the Senate. Virtually all of them have a personal stake in the outcome.
Where would you find an unbiased jury ? North Korea ?
Everyone has an interest in SCOTUS rulings. There is no unbiased jury. There is no possibility of an unbiased jury. Consequently the best jury available is one composed of elected folk, who are chosen from all the states, and who are accountable for their decisions to the voters in their states.
(Besides, as you say a jury is "supposed" to be unbiased. But in reality getting an unbiased jury is very much venue dependant. It is not a reality.)
People should pay attention to me because I am a citizen, a voter, and relevant for the particular issue of legal ethics: a member of the bar. Just like anyone else. But the same can be said of you why should anyone pay attention to you? You’ve also staked out a position as if your views matter. If it doesn’t why are you here?
Also if being elected is your criteria for who matters…why should anyone care what Thomas or Alito think of their situation? They aren’t elected.
Or why isn’t the opinion of elected democrats just as important as elected republicans on the issue. The elected president, elected representatives and senators think there is an ethics issue: why aren’t you listening to them?
Because the Constitution assigns the responsibiity for deciding whether a Justice should be removed from office for failing to maintain good behavior to ..... the Senate.
In which body Democratic Senators, Republican Senators and other kinds of Senators all rank equally. And you need two thirds of them for a conviction.
So what you think is an ethical breach doesn't mean squat. (Myself ditto.) Unless and until you get yourself into the Senate.
I mean it does insofar as I get to vote for and influence my senators. (Also you do need the house to impeach so what they say matters as well).
And while it’s a truism that a removable offense is whatever 1/2 the house and 2/3 of the senate decides, I’ve never heard someone say that they also get to decide what ethics are.
That’s actually both an individual and society wide choice. If you think ethics are determined by a minority of the US Senate…well Kohlberg was being too charitable in his description of pre-conventional morality. I mean thats an even less developed than a child’s reward and punishment approach to the problem.
This is silly. LTG is simply arguing the Founders got that wrong or that they never meant that to be an exclusive remedy.
"This is why we need something. "
Okay, fine, but you can't get it without a constitutional amendment.
"Its a perfectly workable remedy for actual ethics violations"
"It’s not an effective remedy for fake ethics violations that re unconvincing to at one third plus one of the Senators."
Okay, you actually do not believe this bullshit you just posted. "ethics violations are fake if 1/3 of Senators think its not an ethics violation" isn't an own.
It's an admission that I'm right: impeachment and removal are illusory remedies. Literally no one else gets that kind of deference on ethical questions. Not even Senators! Sure it take 2/3 to expel them, but it takes much less to get an unfavorable report from the Ethics Committee or to get fined or charged by other entities. The justices are never subject to the same kind of scrutiny.
"Your objection to the remedy is simply that you want the bar to be lowered, because you would like Uncle Clarence to be ejected because his jurisprudence is not to your taste."
I don't know why you're using racist language to describe a justice you personally like, that's odd. But anyway, yeah I don't like his jurisprudence. But you know what I like much less? Getting millions of dollars in gifts from a political donor, hiding it from the public, and then whining like a little bitch when someone suggests that's sketchy. That kind of behavior is immature and pathetic and should be beneath contempt from people who have to follow much stricter rules. An attorney can face discipline for mis-managing an IOLTA but a SCOTUS justice taking millions in perks and hiding it is somehow a fake ethics scandal. Get real.
Does that donor have business before the Court?
That’s an unduly narrow question. The question is whether he has an interest in the outcomes. And he like everyone in the country does have an interest in the outcome.
SCOTUS isn’t answering questions about who owns what strip of land, they’re answering questions about fundamental rights and the structure of the government that affects everyone in the country. The court’s business is everyone’s business.
Last refuge of (someone trying to defend) a scoundrel.
Impeachment has actually worked for judges in a way it hasn't worked for anyone else. But even so it's only going to work for criminal behavior, not for ethics stuff.
Two thoughts on this:
Appointed Executive officials who get in trouble often resign under public pressure before it gets to that point.
And, I think it is very important to point out that it has only worked for lower court judges. Its potential use could shame a SCOTUS justice to resign, like Fortas, but if you have no shame and get offended at the mere suggestion of impropriety? It's illusory.
If you apply to the Justices the rate of impeachment/resignation over ethical issues you see for lower court judges, there have been few enough Justices in the entire history of the country that you'd scarcely expect to see any impeachment/resignations. So that you're not seeing them is hardly, statistically speaking, suspicious, unless coupled with an unstated assumption that Justices are, on average, hugely more corrupt than lower court judges.
Despite being much more intensively vetted.
I'll grant they are perhaps subject to greater temptations, while at the same time greater scrutiny. But don't leave that assumption unstated, defend it.
OK, Brett.
But couldn't that also mean that lower court judges should be impeached more often - that the system is far too lenient in general.
And did you include lower court judges who resigned over ethical issues and thereby avoided impeachment?
I did say "impeachment/resignation", didn't I? Yes, I did.
Sure, the system could be far too lenient in general. I was just making a basic point: That there have been so few Supreme court justices in history, that unless you assume Justices are far more corrupt on average than lower court judges, or really people in most lines of work, you shouldn't have expected there to have been any impeachments or resignations.
And if that's your assumption, it should be made explicitly and defended, not just implied.
I did miss it. Careless reading on my part.
Agreed, but the conduct has to be egregiously criminal and in a non-partisan manner* to either get the impeachment (14 in history) or to use it to get the judge to resign.
As you note, and as the rest of keep saying, an "all or nothing" remedy isn't helpful to maintain judicial integrity and ethics.
*I hate that I have to say that.
"As you note, and as the rest of keep saying, an “all or nothing” remedy isn’t helpful to maintain judicial integrity and ethics."
Accepting for the sake of argument that this is true, You still probably need a constitutional amendment for any lesser remedy.
I am open to empowering the Senate to impose lesser punishments, provided it eequires a two-thirds vote.
You are right that amending the Constitution is needed.
“Would the chief justice’s hand-selected panel of lower court judges conduct a leak investigation at the Court?”
I’m confused… is the author attempting to draw a contrast with what actually happened with Roberts’ Dobbs leak investigation? Did we ever see a final report on that? Perhaps that question is better directed to Josh.
Elena must have been at Softball practice that day in Con Law when the Impeachment clause was discussed. There's already a process for enforcing "Ethics" Violations
Indeed. And Adler mucks it up as you would expect :
The problem, of course, is that impeachment requires a broader political consensus about alleged misconduct that currently exists.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. You need to get two thirds of the Senate to agree to convict. That guarantees that a bare partisan majority can't drum up a phony "ethics violation" to rebalance the court as they prefer. You need more than 51 Senators plus CNN plus lawtalkingguy.
It also means that 1/3 +1 senators can turn a blind eye to serious ethics issues to advance a political goal. You must at least concede that, correct?
It is better than the alternatives.
There are trade-offs when it comes to checks and balances.
Sure. But a system where SCOTUS gets to tell everyone else what to do and no one can tell them what to do isn’t actually a trade-off.
Any Congressionally-enacted ethics code to be imposed on the Supreme Court is likely these days to be deceitfully designed to compromise the Constitution’s separation of powers.
Such deviancy is intolerable.
Unassailable truths — moral principles upon which the Constitution was based — must hold their value to the very end of human history. They must hold irrespective of Presidential machinations, Congressional blundering or the waxing and waning of populist opinions or ideologically influenced vote counts.
Ballots may be employed to change laws but they can’t be employed to change any of the founding principles upon which the legitimacy of the whole Constitution’s legal system is based.
The United States of America is not a crude democracy but a brilliantly envisaged constitutional republic—diligently defined, prudently refined and justly confined by a critical set of unalienable founding principles, These timeless principles serve to safeguard the Constitution from polls or votes that run amok in times of moral confusion when radical new ideologies ferment extreme social disorder.
In such times, it is the Supreme Court that must serve as the vital and ultimate safeguard against democracies in danger of turning towards mob rule.
It is the Supreme Court’s sturdy independence and life-time appointments that elevate its justices beyond the power of an errant Presidency or a morally confused, divided Congress or even beyond the reach of any ideologically duped constituencies.
The Supreme Court’s independence was skilfuly designed to remain unassailable so that it can always do its monitoring job as the third branch of Government of the People and their Constitutional Republic. It is the Supreme Court’s moral and intellectual integrity that must keep democratic voting and majority polls from deteriorating into mob rule.
Indeed, it is the sole and lonely job of the Supreme Court to safeguard the Constitution which then safeguards government of the people, by the people, for the people.
Lol. Lmao, even.
More seriously it’s kind of crazy how openly desperate some people are to be ruled by kings. This is one of the least healthy attitudes one can have in a modern liberal democracy. It’s just pathetically servile.
No, it's seriously crazy to settle for mob rule that overturns "unalienable" principles.
Dorothy Parker:
Oh life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea,
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am the Queen of Romania.
I wonder why that just came to mind?
The people who came up with those principles for American society were, funnily enough, leading a movement that emerged from mob violence.
Awfully healthy respect for the process from the guy who was just defending the wet dream of musk assassinating judges from orbit
I feel that this is what happens too often today.
We see a problem. We know that it's a problem. Someone attempts to propose a solution.
And immediately ... OH NOES! HEREZ ALL THE PROBLEMZ WITH THE SOULTION! ITZ NOT DE PERFEKT!
Which just ignores the fact that, um, we are trying to solve a problem.
We can always iterate on the solution. But imagining hypotheticals about the solution (What if the Chief Justice was Darth Vader?) doesn't really help.
I spent a lot of time in my first decade+ here defending judges. And I still do, because most of them are really good people with integrity.
But the stink from the Supreme Court, the increased partisanship of the judiciary, and a range of other issues are combining to, at a minimum, make the appearance of impropriety a concern; one that affects the good judges as well as the baddies.
We are past the point where we can rely on judges to go above and beyond with personal integrity, and we are at the point where it feels like an increasing number of judges are, to use the phrase, habitual line steppers taking a legalistic eye to what they can get away with. Judges have great power, and it doesn't take Spider Man to tell you what comes with that.
I see it a bit differently. Someone thinks they see a problem, fails to get consensus that it’s actually a problem, much less defines the magnitude/severity of the problem and immediately starts proposing “solutions” that may be worse than the status quo. Then acts surprised when people push back.
I do not smell a “stink from the Supreme Court” – at least no worse that at any other point in history. What I see is the same phenomenon we see with attitudes about crime – the near-constant reporting about it triggers cognitive biases and creates false perceptions of prevelance and fear.
What is this “stink from the Supreme Court” that loki13 speaks of?
Is there a “stink” from the DOJ, White House, Congress?
Yeah. There always is. But they’re actually accountable in a bunch of ways SCOTUS isn’t.
Bingo.
There are multiple methods of accountability for the political branches, with, of course, the ultimate one being the vote.
I happen to think that it is good to insulate judges from the vagaries of popular opinion, but that means that either they hold themselves to the highest standards, or they have to be held (somehow) to those standards.
So who sets the standards?
Honestly? Literally any other institution. They just need to be actually accountable to some other institution.
There is a procedure for Congress to remove federal kudges, even Supreme Court justices.
Being accountable doesn’t just include removal you know.
It's weird, isn't it, that ostensible libertarians would take the narrowest possible view on how a government official could be held accountable?
Read above for why impeachment isn’t sufficient to the task here.
It’s a clear and thoughtful argument.
I believe it is better than the alternatives.
Mr. Bumble: So who sets the standards?
On the basis of political principles underlying American constitutionalism? It ought to be the jointly sovereign American People who set the standards. It's their Court. And they have already named the standards. Not impeachment, but tenure during good behavior.
The tougher question is how the People should make it happen, given that partisan levers have been arranged politically, with an eye to keep the People's amendment power at bay by exercise of mutually reinforcing minoritarian protections.
But there is another way. A federal grand jury is not part of any branch of government. It is a tribune of the People themselves. It wields a power of indictment.
So pass a law to put Supreme Court ethics enforcement questions initially in the hands of a federal grand jury. Let the law include within the scope of grand jury indictment powers the question of judicial bad behavior. Let the law define with specificity which offenses constitute bad behavior.
Grand jury indicts a justice for bad behavior, and an ordinary criminal-style trial follows, with due process, and a requirement for jury unanimity. But the verdict is not, "Guilty," or, "Not Guilty. The verdict is, "Bad Behavior," or "Good Behavior."
Justice found guilty of bad behavior on the basis of that due process? The justice is off the Court, removed by the People themselves. It becomes a routine exercise of the People's defining power of sovereignty, the constitutive power. It is neither a crisis, nor even a big deal. The result is not a criminal finding. No other consequence but removal may follow.
It is the People's Court. They are the People's standards. That is the way it ought to be. Not a question of separation of powers among rival branches. Not an exercise of partisan politics. Just a routine exercise of sovereign power by the the supreme authority in American constitutionalism—which has never been the Supreme Court.
As someone who routinely interacts with judges and the courts, I think the rot starts from the head, but works its way down.
I remember over a decade ago, there was an excellent district court judge who resigned because he had a large family, and he wanted to make the money you could get in private practice. In fact, that was a normal thought process- you start in private practice, make your money, and if you love the law, you then become a judge later.
Now? I see a lot of people who seem to think that they are entitled to get money when they are judges. Or, you know, get a lot of "stuff" and "perks" and so on. It's noticeable, and it's worrying. When we view judges as more political, it attracts more political people, and political people? They are used to ... perks.
But what do I know? I am only some person who actually has to practice law and deal with judges, not some super smart internet guy.
Also at least elected politicians who are in it for the perks know they can be defeated in an election, lose party support, be questioned by journalists, subject to attack ads, or subject to criminal charges if they go way out of line.
Federal judges want: power, the inability to lose their jobs, no accountability for their decisions, a bunch of perks, and nobody to criticize or question them.
It’s actually kind of hilarious how immature and pathetic they are as a group.
Looking at history, I see no trend such as you describe. Were there greedy, self-interested judges who shouldn't have been judges? Absolutely. But I see no evidence that they are actually worse than they ever were - you're just more aware of them.
And before you get too snarky, 1) you're not the only person who actually practiced law and dealt with judges and 2) loki13 is also just some "super smart internet guy". Your claim to credentials are as meaningless as mine. So back to the argument - what objective evidence do you have that the problem is actually getting worse?
I asked this in the other thread, given your comment. Are you an attorney? Do you have regular interactions with judges (in federal and state court)? Because you had a doozie of a comment in another thread.
Because you dance around the issue. And as is obvious, I don't need to "claim" credentials; while it is true that on the internet, no one knows you are a dog, it is also pretty obvious here when people are discussing legal issues who has some real background in the subject, and who doesn't.
Do I know of any studies that OBJECTIVELY provide numbers? Well, no. Of course, if there were any, people wouldn't believe them anyway - we see how that goes. But I do know what I've seen in practice. And it worries me.
Because randos care about BIG POLTICIAL CASE, but most cases aren't that. And the effects carry over to the routine cases that actually make up the vast majority of daily life in the courts.
I think the rot starts from the head, too. But I think the head consists of the people who nominate and confirm judges and justices. The President, Congress.
This is a long standing theme of mine, and, no, I’m not compensating you if you strain a muscle rolling your eyes: We have a small government Constitution, and a leviathan government, and the way we square them is by massively dishonest interpretation of that Constitution. Starting but hardly limited to Wickard.
You can’t hire people to be massively dishonest in the conduct of their jobs, and expect absolute honesty in the rest of their lives. Justices, and to a lesser degree judges, are hired on the basis of being able to rationalize the modern leviathan while swearing to uphold a constitution written some 240 years ago for a small agrarian federation. That requires a LOT of rationalization, a LOT of tolerance for sophistry.
They’re hired by people who also swear such an oath, and do so planning on, by any honest standard, routinely violating it.
People who are capable of that degree of rationalization and sophistry can’t be expected to keep it carefully segregated from their personal conduct.
A limited government constitution.
A massive government.
An honest government.
Pick two, you can’t have all three at the same time. It’s impossible, one has to go.
Read your Burke.
Change is not about pointing to your utopian vision and whining over and over again.
I would agree, Sarcrasto.
But the people commenting today are so far away from Burkean conservatism that they wouldn't know what it was if it smacked them on the face and called them Shirley.
Don't call me Shirley!
I’m an incrementalist so I’m know of a Burkean nonconservative.
What to make of this comment? "The Constitution and decency was betrayed long ago so now everything goes"? And your pick two, there were tons of corruption examples in our history when our government was *very* relatively limited (think adjudicating land claims and railroad cases).
There is an obvious solution. Raise judge's salaries significantly, on condition they have no outside earned income, and all investments must be put in a blind trust. And no gifts from non-relatives of anything of value over $ 100.
If a federal judge's salary was, say, $ 500k, how many would take that deal?
Which, BTW, would deal with what is IMO a much bigger issue: judicial mediocrity. Or as the late Chief Justice Rehnquist termed it, the Civil Service Judiciary.
More and more I am seeing really dumb people becoming judges. If you are a sharp lawyer, you can make from $ 500k to millions in private practice. Why make $ 225k as a district judge.
True, occasionally you get partners who made their money and then viewing judging as a second career. Those have become less and less common, in my experience.
How do you sell that to Taxpayers = we’ll just pay for quality judges, and the starting price is 500K annually per judge for good quality
That seems like a really good idea to me. Plus it would all seem to be within Congress' constitutional powers.
I’m quite OK with judicial mediocrity. May the Good Lord protect us from “brilliant” judges.
The more brilliant the judge, the larger his or her ego, and the more inclined he or she will be to pull brilliant apercus or insights out of that ol’ rear end.
Judge needs to be clever enough to understand the lawyers’ arguments, and experienced enough to know the rules of the game, and when the wool is being pulled over his eyes. But after that a deep deep lack of imagination is what we’re looking for in a judge. No freestyling, no going off piste. Stick to the steady boring slog. And be happy doing just that.
A clever clogs will always be wanting to innovate. A boring judge is a good judge. A clever judge is a menace.
Heck, that's not a bad idea. I'm wondering if there'd be possible Constitutional objections to the conditional raise, but, yeah, good proposal.
The “push back” is actually a big part of the problem. It’s either justices or sycophantic lawyers/professors getting offended at the suggestion that there might be a problem. If the reaction to criticism is “how dare you” or “it’s actually illegal to impose any restraints on us” then…that’s probably a good sign there is a huge problem and someone should do something about it.
I’m assuming logic forms no part of legal training. Otherwise you would have spotted that your argument amounts to :
"Did you steal the $500 from the pharmacist ?"
"No"
"That proves it ! "
If that works in court, we need new courts.
I’m assuming human interaction has never been apart of your social experience. Otherwise you’d understand the saying: hot dog holler.
Damn autocorrect. *A part *hit dog holler.
Even if their integrity was beyond reproach we would still have a bad system. There is no other organization with such extensive power and such little accountability as SCOTUS. It’s really bad when even the military and intelligence agencies are far more accountable. Congress can actually get information on clandestine activities or sensitive military programs. But can they get similar info from SCOTUS? Nope. SCOTUS literally just blows them off. Congress should start subpoenaing them to ask them literally anything. And if they fight it citing separation of powers, be like well it’s to investigate a possible constitutional amendment limiting SCOTUS. If they still decline hold them in contempt or start impeachment proceedings. Send out the sergeant at arms to get them. Ask The US Attorney charge them with obstructing Congress. Literally anything to show they aren’t above every single accountability mechanism in our system.
One thing I don't get on the whole fake recusal "controversy" -- Kagan was a Harvard law professor for 3 years and later dean for 4 years. Which means she was paid in the mid to high 7 figures during that time in total comp. Call it about 4-5 million total. Then, after being a justice, she received in excess of $150,000 in various teaching roles as well as significant reimbursements for various programs and junkets. And yet, she did not recuse herself from the SFFA v. Harvard case even though she had direct payments from an actual party to the case over decades. And no one raises a peep about it. Which tells me it is all completely in bad faith unless some democrat is filing articles of impeachment against her that I am unaware of.
"One thing I don’t get on the whole fake recusal “controversy”"
Well, it's obvious you don't want to "get" anything. You just want to find arguments to support what you want to be true.
But sure, I'll bite. Why don't you explain to the rest of us morons, like we are slightly dumb golden retrievers, the exact point you are making? Let me help-
1. Kagan does recuse. See, e.g., Fischer.
2. You kinda sorta forget to include some dates? The whole, HARVARD PAID HER ignores the fact that it was over a decade before the case. And I welcome you to look at the standards regarding judges and former employers.
3. Most of the "fake" issues people are discussing have to do with actions and influences that occur AFTER the judge is on the bench; not this.
But again, if you are looking to misdirect, feel free to keep goin'. Or make it real simple for us dumb folk.
Noninvestment income includes compensation from jobs the justice has had, such as teaching roles; jobs at law firms before they were judges; pension benefits; and royalties for intellectual property, such as books and copyrights.
Report Year Amount Purpose
2019 $17,500.00 Teaching
2018 $17,500.00 Teaching
2017 $17,500.00 Teaching
2016 $15,000.00 Teaching
2015 $15,000.00 Teaching
2014 $15,000.00 Teaching
2013 $14,000.00 Teaching
2012 $15,000.00 Teaching
2011 $15,000.00 Teaching
All after on the bench and while hearing a case directly involving them as a litigant. $140,500.00. Plus meals, lodging and other expenses. I really don't have a problem with it but when Thomas or Alito gets the same thing from someone who is not even a party before the court, it's somehow a crisis. Give me a break
Uh huh.
Well, since you looked, you already know the answer, don't you.
It's the same reason that Brett Kavanaugh didn't recuse. You knew that, right? Because he also was making some money teaching at Harvard.
2018 $27,765.00 Teaching
2017 $27,490.00 Teaching
2016 $27,220.00 Teaching
2015 $27,220.00 Teaching
2014 $26,950.00 Teaching
2013 $26,950.00 Teaching
2012 $26,950.00 Teaching
2011 $22,512.75 Teaching
2010 $22,512.75 Teaching
2009 $22,508.50 Teaching
2008 $22,508.50 Teaching
So I will say this again- are you actually trying to learn and understand, in which case why don't you explain the issues to me like I'm a slightly dumb golden retriever.
Or are you just saying, "Look, a squirrel! But ignore all the other squirrels. Please."
My position is there is no ethics controversy. Thomas and Alito have not heard any case where a party had provided a financial benefit and had not duty to recuse in any case they have heard. Your apparent position is they should have recused because Harlan Crow funded a vacation some years ago and maybe be impeached. If that is your position, why shouldn't Kagan also have recused and maybe be impeached? What's different? What specific cases should Thomas or Alito recused themselves?
Okay. So now you are telling me my position (that they should be impeached).
Apparently, you are both a mind reader, and also incapable of reading what I wrote in this thread, which is that I want a PROSPECTIVE code.
Why? Well, because it's fair. And so people like you with bad understandings and a desire to find squirrels can stop for a second, and say, "Actually, why am I arguing against more integrity in the judiciary? With clear and transparent rules, moving forward, that would apply to everyone?"
I think this just mistakes the actual ethics problem to the extent there is one.
It isn’t justices taking bribes. They’re all financially secure enough to face little temptation in that area. They might accept ethically questionable money, but they’re not doing it in the course of selling their decisions. It’s just a matter of, who doesn’t like money and free stuff, so why not take it? It might look bad, but they know they’re not being bribed, so they feel alright about it.
The real problem is what you might call judicial embezzlement: Using their positions to obtain policy changes that they’re not really entitled to impose, by shading their interpretation of the law to produce outcomes they like, rather than just mechanistically ruling to uphold the law as it would be neutrally read by an impartial jurist.
In a judge, that too is corruption, but not the sort that shows up in an audit…
Keep on the subject and don’t just raise your pet issue.
If ethics isn’t a problem argue that, don’t point elsewhere and say you think that’s more important.
We have 2 open threads a week no need for you to hijack other ones.
Nobody put you in charge you stupid fucking Douche!
Somebody's testy!
Somebody's honest.
Your subject is financial corruption, which as Brett explains is irrelevant in practice.
Brett's subject is political corruption, which is inherent in the process for appointing judges, and far from irrelevant.
He doesn't have to stick to your narrow take on what constitutes corruption.
He doesn’t explain its irrelevance he just points elsewhere.
And repeats an old and partisan argument.
I’d see why you would prefer that old battleground.
He doesn’t explain its irrelevance
Work harder on your reading skills :
Brett : It isn’t justices taking bribes. They’re all financially secure enough to face little temptation in that area. They might accept ethically questionable money, but they’re not doing it in the course of selling their decisions.
Brett’s subject is political corruption, which is inherent in the process for appointing judges, and far from irrelevant.
I've read a lot of Brett's comments on this point, and can say this: Brett has extremely rigid, at best, notions of what the Constitution means and how it should be interpreted, and it is very hard for him to grasp that there might be good faith disagreement with his opinions - in other matters also. When Justices he agrees with take gifts, etc. he never sees that as "embezzlement" because, hey, they made the right decision, didn't they? So what's the problem?
The idea that those gifts may have influenced the Justice's thinking, or given the givers extraordinary access to argue their points, never occurs to him. Simple logic leads to the same conclusion, after all.
The idea has occurred to me, the problem is, I haven't seen any evidence of it. Where is your evidence that justices are changing their votes in response to money?
I'm not sure what evidence that would be. A written agreement? A wiretapped conversation?
The people who are willing to give Justices lots of money and gifts seem to think there is some reason why that is a smart and rational thing to do. What do you think that reason is? I'm genuinely curious about your thinking, not making a rhetorical point.
Even ruling contrary to previous inclinations would be some sort of evidence. But I'm not seeing any.
"It might look bad"
Why do you think it might look bad?
You're almost there!
"It isn’t justices taking bribes. They’re all financially secure enough to face little temptation in that area."
Would you like approximately a million examples of rich people accepting bribes? It turns out to be likely, according to several studies I've seen over the years, that wealthy people are more likely than poor people to accept bribes when given an opportunity.
loki : Or are you just saying, “Look, a squirrel! But ignore all the other squirrels. Please.”
It’s more that you are confusing squirrels and penguins. You see CLTLWY’s squirrel noted Kagan’s earnings from Harvard while she was on the Supreme Court the court that actually heard the case. Whereas your penguin noted Kavanaugh’s earnings from Harvard before he joined the Supreme Court, while he was still on the DC court. Which did not hear the case.
So Kavanaugh has had no earnings from Harvard while he has been a judge on the court that heard the case. Your penguin fails to whatabout CLTLWY’s squirrel.
Like CLTLWY I don’t care at all about Kagan’s Harvard earnings as a Supreme Court Justice, even when she sits on a case involving Harvard. I don’t believe for a moment that she is influenced by them. She's influenced by the fact that she’s a committed lefty who fervently believes in affirmative action. The cash has nothing to do with it.
A fortiori I dont care about Thomas getting freebies over the years from some rich guy, when the rich guy hasn’t even got a case in the court !
If you want to compare the Thomas and Kagan squirrels – Harvard smells no sweeter than the rich guy (after all Harvard has just been found guilty of ILLEGAL RAAACISM ! in the Supreme Court.) The rich guy not so much.
And the Thomas squirrel involves a hypothetical future case, where we don’t know if Thomas will recuse or not. If there ever is such a case. While the Kagan squirrel involves an actual case, where we know she didn’t recuse. So if anyone deserves to do a perp walk, it’s Kagan.
Except nobody cares including me. And thusly with Thomas, only more so. it’s just political hacks hacking away. Plus ca change.
Forget it Jake, she's a DemoKKKrat. And a Woman. And a Lesbian. oh wait, she's Jewish??!!!?!?!? she joked about going to a Chinese Restaurant on Christmas??!?!?!?!?!?!? CANCEL HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank
Canon 4(D)(5) states: "A judge should not disclose or use nonpublic information acquired in a judicial capacity for any purpose unrelated to the judge's official duties." Presumably, a campaign to influence the chief justice and his colleagues by leaking "nonpublic information" to the New York Times would meet that description
Interpreted this expansively, the rule is honored more in the breach than the observance-- how many times have you been at a CLE and a judge tells a war story about a conversation he had with a clerk or other judges when deciding a case? Lots, I'm guessing. I certainly have. The "(D)" in 4(D)(5) makes the heading of the section "Financial Activities." I have not reviewed the case law, but I'd argue that clarifies it to mean that a judge isn't supposed to use such information for financial gain, e.g., trading on Microsoft because you know they're about to get wrecked by an antitrust ruling.
If a Supreme Court Justice is indicted, the federal trial court judge would conduct the trial and make rulings as to contempt etc. How would this be any different?
+1 Although there is a possible distinction between private actions of the individual who happens to be a justice and something done in connection with the office/institution itself.
“how many times have you been at a CLE and a judge tells a war story about a conversation he had with a clerk or other judges when deciding a case? Lots, I’m guessing”
In my experience — never.
Are they serving drinks at the CLE?
I'm surprised to hear that. At CLE's and just legal events generally, judges love chatting about how they make decisions and what makes for effective advocacy-- insight like that is a large part of why they're invited to speak, after all. "When Judge Smith and I decided the recent prominent Blah Blah Blah decision, we were really persuaded by the government's brief, which was a great example of legal writing and helped us decide issue X in Y way" is completely routine shop talk even if technically it's disclosing "nonpublic" information. Really, the problem is the opposite, once you get a judge to start talking about themselves it's almost impossible to get them to stop.
How is a filed brief nonpublic information? Or do you mean the judge's positive opinion of the quality of the brief?
The judge's positive opinion of the quality of the brief or just discussions about how they reached decision X that aren't directly in the opinion itself. That's technically nonpublic information but judges talk about that all the time. Really, it'd be hard to discuss what is and isn't effective advocacy without disclosing at least a little bit of "nonpublic" information. All of which is to say that I think the reading of the judicial canon proffered in the OP is overly broad or, at minimum, not really observed in practice.
I have never heard a judge talk about any of that stuff. It would be considered improper, at least where I practice (New York).
Only within chambers, when I was interning.
All this lefty faux concern over ethics is because there is a [mostly] conservative court for the first time since 1936. The New Deal-Warren Courts and a semi-conservative court [which invented abortion and gay marriage rights] are gone and its a freak out over loss of political power.
That's it, despite the "Last Reasonable Man" shtick some people on here like to exhibit and the racist hatred of Clarence Thomas.
Guy who continues to support Pinochet after being informed his regime used dogs to rape women has thoughts on ethics and morals. Can’t make this stuff up.
Seriously a dude like you should absolutely not be opining on ethics or morals under any circumstances. You’re simply not credible on the subject.
Oh and on the subject of judicial ethics specifically: you’re not credible because you defended Pat DeWine staying on the redistricting cases despite me pointing out there is a very clear rule prohibiting judges from sitting on cases where their family members are witnesses as Governor DeWine was. Which means you’re either 1) illiterate in which case your ethical opinions can be disregarded because you can’t even read the rules, or 2) you’re a massive liar in which case your opinions can be disregarded because you know damn well what the rules are but you simply ignore them.
"racist hatred of Clarence Thomas."
Lol, pathetic.
"racist hatred of Clarence Thomas"
Pretty rich stuff from a man who was apoplectic over Obama wearing a tan suit.
Those in the judiciary like to tout how the Courts lack the power of the purse (reserved to Congress) and the power of the sword (reserved to the President), and so they are left only with the power of the pen (i.e., the power of persuasion inherent in saying what the law is and providing arguments in support of their interpretation). This is also the only branch of the government (in my opinion) that routinely limits its own powers via the application of various doctrines (e.g., standing, political question, and justiciability). That’s the case vertically (e.g. the application of state law in federal courts) and horizontally (e.g., political question). I understand that people don’t like the impeachment remedy because it is difficult, but that’s by design. I have not seen persuasive arguments that rebut what was argued in the Federalist Papers. It seems to me that the arguments supporting ratification still ring true today. Moreover, the Constitution has served us pretty well for over two centuries. I agree with Burnham that these ethics’ proposals are a solution in search of a problem.
There are comments in this thread that seriously argue that SCOTUS is less transparent and accountable than even the military and intelligence services. I don’t know how anyone can think that in all seriousness. Set aside U.S. v. Nixon and plenty of other cases–also forget about the administrative state, nondelegation, and executive privilege–the intelligence services operate in and outside of the country with near-impunity. The people have very little direct knowledge of the things the intelligence services are doing. Recall that Edward Snowden had to violate several laws to leak information about government surveillance, and even then, how much of that has actually changed?
We can't even get Congressional term limits ffs. Aren't they supposed to be the most accountable branch!?
Do you think most people who want more transparency and accountability regarding the Court don't want the same regarding intelligence services?
If I'm being charitable, I would expect they want more governmental transparency in general. But that's besides the point...it is ridiculous to say that the Courts are less transparent/accountable than the intelligence services.
I suspect you're right on transparency, but not accountability. The military and intelligence services don't have to be impeached to be held accountable.
Why not introduce some punishments that stop short of impeachment and have no consequences for the Justice’s ability to exercise their duties?
Eg in England:
In the US suspension would be off the table, and you could give the power to reprimand etc to a simple majority of the Senate.
If the Senate adopts a bullshit reprimand, it will have no consequences. But a reprimand (or formal advice, etc) that is widely viewed as merited may shame the Justice into resigning, or may be taken as evidence in the future when a more severe measure, including impeachment, is considered.
As of this writing there are 99+ “comments” and not one of them, nor the original article by James Burnham (nor J. Kagan’s deep thoughts) acknowledges that: “The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”
It would seem if the U.S. Constitution contains no “wasted words” then “supreme” and “inferior” by the respective common understanding and definition of each of those two words precludes the very democratic idea of having the “inferior” courts vote (en mass directly or through an appellate proxy) on the acceptability of the behavior of individual “supreme” court justices; as to so empower the “inferior” courts would only advance “tyranny by the majority” (and deliberately ignore the “supreme law” of the land).
Then there is the nuanced hurdle that Congress can only impeach in limited circumstances; and those circumstances do not include “breaches of ethics”; whatever that term of art may mean in the context of the Constitution.
For Congress to declare ethical standards for judges of the supreme Court would be ironic, possibly undermine “separation of powers” (which is likely why the “impeachment power” is restricted to a few specific transgressions), and (to me) sounds a bit like an effort to make the Congress and feral government the “established religion” of the nation (but, it does flow directly from the demonrats’ mantra: “These are Our Values.” (Not exactly clear whether the “Our” refers to the demonrats or “originalism”.))
Individual Supreme Court Justices are not the “Supreme Court”. They are only “Supreme” together.
People always seem to read their own policy preference into the limited words of the Constitution.
There are all sorts of things that we can talk about. Can the IRS, which is subordinate to the President, review the President's taxes?
Okay, how about this? If the Constitution mandates "No hanky panky" between branches, then... can Congress strip the Supreme Court of all appellate jurisdiction? I mean ... read Article III, my friend!
Okay, then how about they have appellate jurisdiction of cases, with regulations, including ethical codes, that Congress requires?
You get the idea. Look, the issue is this- I want SCOTUS to act. But all of this ... this isn't helping. This shouldn't be partisan. Make it prospective. Make it clear. Make it transparent.
We want judges and courts that we all believe in.
The IRS is not a delegated power in the Constitution to the Federal Government from the People. As well, the Sixteenth Amendment may or may not have been properly ratified, and may not be "constitutional"; and Administrative Law (strictly speaking) is very likely "unlawful".
To summarize, the IRS does not have equal status with Article III courts.
Further, please read my "[cont'd]" a few comments below.
if the U.S. Constitution contains no “wasted words”
A questionable assumption.
Congress can only impeach in limited circumstances; and those circumstances do not include “breaches of ethics”;
Federal judges serve for "good behavior."
If impeachment is for a limited purpose -- after all, it doesn't just involve removal but can also include a permanent denial from federal office -- another route must be present to enforce this wider requirement. The words would be "wasted" if good behavior does not provide an additional requirement.
Art. 1, sec. 8, cl. 18 gives Congress the power to pass necessary and proper regulations to carry out the terms of the Constitution. This includes various regulations of the courts.
supreme court
We don't know the specific terms of the proposed body, so it's guesswork, but investigating individual justices by definition is not going to reduce the nature of the Supreme Court that it would be definition not be supreme.
For instance, a lower court judge can preside over the civil or criminal trial of a justice without the "Supreme Court" suddenly becoming an inferior court.
It is disturbing to feel mentioning this is necessary, but it seems evident that the term, "Supreme Court," has led some to conclude that the Court is meant to be supreme over government, not merely supreme within the judicial system.
Stephen, No. Read the Constitution. "Supreme" only in the context of Article III.
[cont'd]
One or more judicial panels comprised of appellate court judges could be empowered by the Supreme Court pursuant to its “implied power” to supervise inferior courts. “good Behaviour” comes from English law and practices preceding and including the time until the US Constitution was ratified; as a consequence various aspects of “bad Behaviour” are known and likely applicable to US Constitution.
Such behavior could include: failure to maintain a judicial temperament and / or perform one’s duties; incompetence; political bias; refusal to follow precedence without properly reasoned arguments; consistently mis-reading prior decisions cited; manipulation of case assignment and appellate processes; … (such a list needs to be precise and limited so as to mitigate the possibility of corruption of the process).
All of the above are outside the impeachment causes specified in the Constitution and previously in English law. And, are of such a nature as to give rise to judicial controversies; Congress is not qualified to adjudicate judicial controversies, nor does it have the time to do so.
There are solid arguments that the Supreme Court “merely” need assert its Constitutional authority; “bad Behaviour” results in bad decision, and unnecessary work for appellate courts and the Supreme Court. To terminate inferior court judges found to have consistently, deliberately practiced “bad Behaviour” is a fundamental function of the judicial authority vested in the Supreme Court pursuant to Article III.
Separately, as others have noted over past decades, inferior court judges who refuse to retire / resign despite suffering permanent disabilities including cognitive impairment should also be removed via the above process.
Last it is possible instituting a judicial process such as the above would result in Congress attempting to appoint truly qualified persons to the inferior courts.
As to the Supreme Court itself, the President and Senate should be diligent as to how they identify and screen candidates. As well, unreasoned, sophistic or political decisions issued by the Supreme Court should be challenged by well-reasoned arguments developed by the inferior courts; nothing in the above prevents the inferior courts from fulfilling that very important role.
P.S. Much of the above has been researched and developed over a century or more by others.
It’s helpful to think about things outside of impeachment.
To terminate inferior court judges found to have consistently, deliberately practiced “bad Behaviour” is a fundamental function of the judicial authority vested in the Supreme Court pursuant to Article III.
If this has been “researched and developed,” so be it, but it has not been the accepted practice.
Congress also has the power and has done so to set forth certain guidelines of what good behavior is and established the Judicial Conference of the United States in part to help carry it out. For instance, Congress has passed judicial recusal statutes.
They can do more. The specific ability to “adjudicate judicial controversies” themselves can be given to others.
As to “truly qualified persons to the inferior courts,” presidents have done so regularly. Some subset are dubious characters, but there are lots of very qualified federal judges out there.
Joe,
I will research the accuracy and relevancy of “judicial recusal statutes” (?). …
Regardless, Congress does not have the “power” to modify the Constitution; the Constitution itself has within two means by which it might be amended; Congress does not have by itself such delegated power.
That said, I have been “self-educating” on a related issue for sometime: “Why ‘inferior’ (in every way) candidates for federal judgeships are chosen and appointed in the first place, and then when ‘clearly’ not representative of an ‘above average’ intellect, the decency of the ‘average American’, or even training and relevant experience of the average litigator (Ugh … “law professor”, …) … cannot be removed is inexplicable ?” …
I have articles from practicing attorneys from the 1800s and early 1900s expressing the same thoughts – “The system is corrupt !” … Because the Supreme Court has not asserted “Its Authority” to “Check” the “powers” of the “Executive in collusion with the Senate.”
[Note: there is no actual delegation to the Executive beyond “… by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, … shall nominate … Judges of the supreme Court, and all other … whose Appointments … are not herein provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such … as they think proper … in the Courts of Law …”]
Who is James Burnham, and why should we care what he has to say about anything?
This reads as sophomoric nitpicking without any attempt to seriously address the underlying problem (or explain why it isn't a problem - evidently libz are just jealous?). This guy didn't hone his skills much working for Trump, did he?
SimonP, "James Burnham" is the author of the article excerpted which is the basis for the entire discussion. ... I take it you're an Evelyn Wood graduate (?); try not to move your fingers so fast.
The better reference would probably be to the Good Behavior clause.
The constitutional rules regarding impeachment apply to all federal judges. The concern for independence applies to them too.
Does the critique — including from a biased party (people have biases both ways, but let’s be clear a former Trump Administration official is involved) — suggest current rules for lower court judges are problematic?
Lower court experience is interesting for those who appeal to impeachment as an option. Consider the most recent person removed by impeachment:
Judge Thomas Porteous was not convicted of a crime but was recommended for removal by the Judicial Council of the Fifth Circuit
“Congress could well enact or endorse a set of standards”
How will a “violation” be determined? An ethics law that includes an investigatory body with public reports could very well be helpful.
The Constitution says judges serve for good behavior. That is a special qualification not present for the executive and legislature. There are various possible ways to enforce that & Congress per Art. 1, sec. 8, cl. 18. has the power to do so.
Thinking out of the box:
“Removing Federal Judges Without Impeachment”
https://www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/removing-federal-judges-without-impeachment
Anyway, to be clear, “good behavior” is not the same as “breaking the law,” and judges have been removed without being convicted of a crime.
And, overall, the impeachment clause applies to lower court judges. Impeachment is not the only way good behavior is enforced respecting them.
Interesting link. The article leaves with little basis in law or history any insistence that to remove a justice requires impeachment. It even suggests a power in the Justice Department to prosecute a Supreme Court Justice for ordinary crimes.
But I do get a sense that during the 18 years since the article was published, there has been a strong movement toward assertion to the contrary. No doubt a strong movement strengthened further by concerns among MAGA types to armor plate a Court they rightly regard as a bulwark defending their politics.
“Removing Federal Judges Without Impeachment”
As good a beginning as another. Follow the footnote references and responses that were written as critiques.
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez submitted an impeachment resolution for Alito and Thomas. I will grant the one for Alito is somewhat of a stretch. I won't say it is groundless, but let's grant that.
Thomas, however, has done multiple things, including involving evident criminal violations, that make it quite reasonable to raise impeachment concerns.
The fact his blatant violations have not even led to an impeachment investigation underlines why some think impeachment is a toothless remedy.
Less than 20 judges were removed by impeachment. True, a sizable number more (years back, I saw a reference of something like 50) were pressured to resign.
Still, not only is that a small fraction, but some lower court judges have been pressured to resign because of current investigatory procedures in place outside impeachment.
"Good behavior" also involves a range of things not impeachment-worthy. Congress has in place various requirements, and on top of that, there are guidelines set forth by the courts. The violation of a recusal rule once, for instance, is not going to be impeachment-worthy. But, ethical enforcement can have a process to address it.
Perhaps now would be a good time for Merrick Garland to get in touch with John Roberts, and say something like:
"There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable."
And then remind Roberts that that quote from founder James Wilson (a member of the nation's first Supreme Court) was not written with the Supreme Court in mind. Garland could continue, and mention that both he and Roberts report to that uncontrollable power. Maybe explore whether Roberts seems mindful about that. Ask whether the Wilson quote has any implications Roberts reflects upon.