The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Milton Friedman Got Wrong About Immigration and the Welfare State
He was wrong to think "You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and free immigration."

Immigration restrictionists love to quote Milton Friedman's line that "[y]ou cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and free immigration." There are lots of other rationales for immigration restriction. But this one has obvious resonance to people who otherwise favorite free markets. In a helpful recent post, economist Bryan Caplan, a leading expert on immigration policy, outlines why Friedman was wrong on this point. As Caplan points out, evidence indicates that most immigrants actually contribute more to the public fisc than they take out. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the surge in migration since 2021 will reduce the federal budget deficit by almost $1 trillion over the next decade.
In addition, as Bryan notes, if immigrants really were a fiscal drain, there is the obvious "keyhole solution" of limiting immigrants' eligibility for welfare benefits. The US already does this to a substantial extent under the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, and such exclusion could be broadened, if necessary. When asked about this possibility in the same 1999 interview where he made the more famous comment about immigration, Friedman admitted he "ha[dn't] really ever thought" of it. That's understandable, given that immigration wasn't one of Friedman's areas of expertise, and he had never written a book or article about the subject. Even the greatest thinkers sometimes have poorly thought out views on issues they haven't studied carefully.
Bryan offers some additional well-taken criticisms of Friedman's comments on immigration, including pointing out that Friedman was wrong to suggest that "the movement of goods is a substitute for the movement of people." In some cases it is indeed a good substitute, but in many it is clearly not.
It's also worth noting that the idea that we can restrict liberty whenever doing so might substantially reduce welfare spending, has dire implications Friedman would have rejected in other contexts. Consider some examples:
"You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and legalize alcoholic beverages."
If alcoholic beverages are legal, some people will become alcoholics, and become unable to hold down a job. They could end up on welfare. Also, alcoholism often leads to health problems that increase government health care expenditures, in a world where we have programs like Medicaid and Medicare.
"You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and unrestricted consumption of fatty foods."
Eating too much food of this type can lead to obesity, and obesity - like alcoholism - often causes health problems that increase welfare state spending on health care. At the very least, this can justify heavy government regulation and taxation of such foods, even if not an outright ban.
"You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and end the War on Drugs."
Like alcoholism and obesity, drug use often leads to health problems that in turn increase government spending on health programs. Plus, some drug addicts end up on welfare because they can't hold down a job.
"You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and unrestricted reproduction."
The children of poor people are disproportionately likely to use welfare benefits. Even those from relatively affluent families are likely to consume public education spending.
Examples like this can easily be multiplied. Many, many exercises of liberty have potential downsides that can lead to increased welfare state expenditures in some situations.
You can consistently bite all these bullets if you're a thoroughgoing supporter of government intervention, as some conservative and left-wing paternalists are. But libertarians (and many others who value personal liberty) reject the welfare spending rationale for restricting liberty in these other cases, or at least presumptively do so (perhaps small decreases in liberty would be acceptable if they are the only way to prevent really massive spending increases). They should do the same when it comes to immigration restrictions.
Indeed, the potentially spending-minimizing regulations libertarians reject in these other cases are actually often much less severe constraints on liberty than immigration restrictions are. Most people can live a generally free and happy life even if they rarely or never drink alcohol, do not partake of any currently illegal drugs, and strictly limit consumption of fatty foods. By contrast, immigration restrictions consign millions to a lifetime of poverty and oppression. I don't know about you. But I'd much rather forego alcoholic beverages and most fatty foods than have to spend the rest of my life in Cuba or Venezuela. Immigration restrictions also severely limit the liberty (especially the economic liberty) of receiving-country natives, as well as that of would-be migrants.
Finally, it's worth noting that those who like to quote Friedman's statement on immigration and the welfare state generally overlook the fact that he was highly supportive of illegal immigration, because illegal migrants aren't eligible for most welfare benefits:
That's an interesting paradox to think about. Make it legal and it's no good. Why? Because as long as it's illegal the people who come in do not qualify for welfare, they don't qualify for social security, they don't qualify for the other myriad of benefits that we pour out from our left pocket to our right pocket. So long as they don't qualify they migrate to jobs. They take jobs that most residents of this country are unwilling to take. They provide employers with the kind of workers that they cannot get. They're hard workers, they're good workers, and they are clearly better off.
Friedman was largely right about illegal immigration. But making it legal actually improves the situation, by enabling migrants to work at a wider range of jobs, acquire more skills, and assimilate more fully. And the fiscal effects are still a net positive.
I critique the welfare-spending rationale for migration restrictions in greater detail in Chapter 6 of my book Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom.
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We don't need more sponges in the country. If you rely on welfare thats a pretty good sign you're a net economic drain who's purpose of being brought it is waging electoral warfare on the native population by diluting their vote.
Full on scroogin' it, but more bigoted.
It’s fun to spend other peoples money isn’t it? Especially for the democrat elite who have sufficient resources to distance themselves from the consequences of their society destroying policies.
You seem pretty happy to take it though.
Uh don’t know why you would write that. I don’t support Kamala and her fascination with 80 percent tax rates and, until a few days ago, unleashing the full hell of her new IRS agents to collect taxes on tips. Nor do I support her desire to decriminalize and open the border. At least that was her position. Don't know what she did as border Czar. apart from maybe facilitating the chaos. I guess she could clarify that if she ever finds the courage to have press conference.
If you live in a red state, you're annoyingly suckling at my teat. I predict it won't be long before you convine us to start weaning you.
Again, you are confused. I would hope states start practicing some fiscally sane policies. Shrink their government. They might want to begin by abandoning their green energy crap. I'm sure their citizens would appreciate affordable and reliable energy.
States can do what they want. What we need to do is get rid of the federal handouts to red states. Farm subsidies, wasteful rural infrastructure funding, Medicaid, etc.
Not quite sure all those things are per se wasteful, at least not as wasteful as the green energy scams. You'd need to be more specific. But if you want to reduce Medicaid subsidies, I suspect a few democrat ruled states might start throwing some big fits.
The blue states can afford our own Medicaid. That's what I mean. You've just about convinced us to be federalists rather than continue to subsidize your unappreciative asses.
I think you need a better understanding of what federalism is, in addition to some basic economic lessons. From what I understand it is Kamala who wants to tax and spend us back to the stone age. But, ok, let democrat states forgo all federal subsidies, including rent and other subsidies for illegals. Wonder what Kamala really wants? Apart from open borders of course. When do you think she could muster the courage to let the public in on her true intentions?
Oh dear this seems beyond the scope of Rivabot’s programming.
It’s the (NiggeRedacteds), which we have more of in Red States suckling your Teats (c’mon Man! do some Pushups!) Same with your Blue States, (even Rhode Island, who knew Rhode Island had so many (Redacted) And (unfortunately) except for the millions of Joses/Juans/Eduardos, the main legal immigrants to the Red States are Refugees from your Bullshit Shitholes,
Unfortunately, with my travel job, I spend way more time in Progressive Playgrounds like Puyallup WA, Fresno CA, and Newark NJ, than my native state. And while MSP does have a Buffalo Wild Wings, they’re whole sections where you’d swear you were in Qom
Frank
Was this just a big post about how afraid of Black people you are? Yeah, we know.
Most people on welfare are not on it long term (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2015/05/how-long-do-people-receive-assistance.html) (I couldn't find anything newer than 2015 with a quick search).
If we were really against people on welfare, we would charge the companies whose employees are on welfare for their portion of the bill (provided they had more than, say, 50 employees).
Walmart wants to have workers but pay them so little they qualify for welfare? Here's the bill for those employees government subsidy. Same for Target, or Amazon, or whoever. No need for the taxpayer to subsidize these companies underpayment of their employees. You'd see a drastic reduction if large scale employers had to pay for their employees subsidies instead of fobbing it off on the taxpayer.
So you want to eliminate part time jobs?
Every job has to be a full-time family supporting job?
Looking at 'welfare' requires a bit of discrimination.
There is unemployment, temporary by definition (except when democrats extend it over and over) and funded by payroll taxes.
Then there is the more traditional 'welfare', what used to be voluntary charity, funded by general tax revenue.
If unemployment is included in the measure of how long people stay on welfare, the numbers are skewed low.
We probably should get rid of part-time jobs, except for specific classes of people who legitimately need part-time work e.g. students.
Wait, what???
Students can't work full time because they're in school a good part of the day.
Do you mean a legal prohibition on part-time jobs? Don’t employers push low-end employees towards part-time jobs rather than full-time jobs because the full-time jobs come with costly benefits?
It seems to me that the better solution is (assuming the government thinks those benefits are worth mandating) to require part-time jobs to pay proportionately towards a benefit fund that part-time employees can use to get those benefits. If a half-time employee costs 50-55% as much as a full-time employee, the economic incentive for employers to split full-time jobs into multiple part-time jobs goes away.
I want to eliminate subsidizing corporations.
If a corporation can only survive because their employees receive government subsidies, they shouldn't exist. Walmart has enough profit to more than cover such employees. If this means a temporary reduction of employed people because walmart fires some part time employees to make others full time, that's as it should be.
Unemployment is separate from the kind of welfare I am describing.
I do not want to eliminate part time jobs. Employers with less than, say, 50 employees would not be affected.
But for large corporations? Yes. And if a company wants part time labor, they can pay the associated taxes with such employment. It wouldn't be illegal.
Isn't that essentially what a minimum wage law does?
Minimum wage is $7.25. At 40 hours a week, with no vacation, that's $15k / year. Subtract social security and Medicare taxes and it's around $13.5k / year.
With rent costing $700 / month for a studio apartment in a moderate city (Houston, Atlanta) and food + utilities cost at $200, that leaves 4.5k for transportation and some small hobbies.
That leaves no room for anything other than a single individual with no family living in a very cheap city.
So no, it isn't what the minimum wage law does.
That's kind of a weird way to look at it. In actuality, WalMart is saving the government money so that the government doesn't have to spend as much on these people's maintenance; the government should be thanking WalMart, not billing it.
Walmart isn’t saving the government money. Walmart is being subsidized by not having to pay a living wage and grifting our tax dollars. I get no benefit from Walmart having part time labor or being able to underpay their workers such that my taxes cover their Medicaid (which is a great program and much cheaper than no health care for the poor).
I would rather pay for alternate job training, trade schooling, or a government project for the unemployed (like the forest service jobs of the 40s) to try and better society than give a private corporation my tax dollars. General workforce improvement is more valuable to me. A stable society where people can afford to have children and a stable birthrate is more important to me.
Believe it or not, I wasn't born a rich bastard, I had a huge LA Times Paper route at 14, Bagged Groceries at the Base Commissary starting at age 12 (Only paid in Tips, IRS talkin' bout the Front Tip Tax, they ain't gonna get the Back Tip Tax, they ain't gettin none of it!)
and in College/Med School, I delivered Pianos, cooked Steaks, and when that wasn't enough, there are these thangs called "Plasma Centers" where you get paid for your Plasma, (they give you your red cells back)
Frank
NYP has reported the following:
"The New York Post discovered New York City has spent almost $5,000,000,000 on its illegal alien crisis in 2023 and 2024.
The city might face double that amount in 2025.
How’s this for perspective: The NYPD budget is $5.75 billion."
See attached NYC budget
https://www.nyc.gov/site/omb/as-fund-tracker.page
Once more: asylum seekers are not illegal aliens.
Neither are Homeless Veterans, like you give a fuck about them
illegal aliens seeking "asylum" are still illegal aliens
Once more: asylum seekers are not illegal aliens.
At what point did you decide that repeating bullshit somehow transforms it into the truth?
Isn't part of the reasoning behind Friedman's observation that political support for welfare policies is reduced in heterogeneous populations? Even if immigrants don't take more than their "fair share" of welfare benefits (or even if they take less than that), many people may be less inclined to support welfare programs that they see going to people outside "their community," as they define it. I'm not justifying that view, but I'm pretty sure that it is a real phenomenon.
I’m pretty confident that Friedman’s intended takeaway wasn’t that we should restrict immigration to save the welfare state.
Agreed. He'd have been more likely to view that as a positive, actually.
His position really was that you could not realistically keep immigrants off welfare. It just wasn't politically feasible, when folks pointed out them suffering. They WOULD eventually get to go on it.
So the solution is to end the welfare state? I am willing to try.
How much are you willing to pay for gasoline, natural gas, and other oil derivatives? Or are we only talking about welfare for individual citizens and not corporations? When the price of gas at the pump exceeds $7 because we've eliminated corporate welfare, people might change their mind.
You only make yourself look silly when you imply that fossil fuels get significant public subsidies. The "studies" that people generally cite in support of that claim assume that a fictional, arbitrary and high level of carbon tax should exist and is the correct baseline -- and that the absence of such a high level of carbon tax is a huge subsidy to those fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels get subsidies that aren't calculated by looking at externalities. They get favourable leases on federal land and there are numerous incentives and write-offs in the tax code.
"When"? been to California lately?
Considering that we are talking about immigration let’s start by making it impossible for illegal aliens to get welfare and work from there. Institute E-verify to receive any welfare benefit.
I mean, doesn't this fundamentally depend upon the number of immigrants allowed in at a given time?
If the USA took in every single available refugee in the world (117 million people per UNHCR) what would the country look like? Could you maintain any form of a welfare state?
Sudan is undergoing civil war. If we allowed free immigration would half the population of Sudan (25 million people) want to come to the US? More? Could the USA absorb 25 million Sudanese refugees without consequence? Absolutely not.
This open borders nonsense is just so disingenuous. Not one of its advocates would be okay with accepting the entire population of India moving to the US, or the entire population of China. They have some mental limit on the number of immigrants and just refuse to acknowledge it. I would imagine there is also a mental assumption that immigrants wouldn't bring in their native culture either (as none of the writers in this blog would want to live under the Chinese government). Acknowledging that they wouldn't accept a billion people from a single country would be acknowledging they aren't actually for open borders. Which is why it won't happen.
You are correct. It's very disingenuous and/or delusional.
I also wonder how all of this would work at scale. There are millions of current inhabitants of this planet that would like to seek asylum in (or immigration to) the US immediately, and millions more in the near to short term. If it is given that this might produce some sort of strain, what mechanism of control would an advocate of free immigration suggest?
Probably Somin would say something like sponsorship. Even if sponsorship would work, and wouldn't put the new immigrant under almost slave-like control by their sponsor, it probably wouldn't reach those who are in the most genuine need of asylum, but don't have the connections or skills preferred by sponsors. It would mostly boil down to yet another way of chasing after reduced labor costs. The past half-century of the "chasing after cheap labor" era has not all been sunshine and roses for humanity in general. Those cheap goods have a price. The lower prices don't come without local and global externalities.
“I would imagine there is also a mental assumption that immigrants wouldn’t bring in their native culture either (as none of the writers in this blog would want to live under the Chinese government).”
Somin had another post about zoning where he argues that because certain locations like San Francisco are “rich” in productivity, if you ended zoning and quadrupled the population there, you would get quadruple the production.
The idea is that in some areas, the soil is rich with magical properties that affect the persons entering upon it. This magic soil can impart everything from work ethic to deeply held beliefs in liberty and freedom.
It's literally called the "magic dirt" theory.
See here.
Man you all are just so unapologetically racist!
Immigrants have more deeply held beliefs in liberty and freedom than some fat greasy native-born American like you. Also a better work ethic. Silicon valley is rich in immigrants.
If anything we should allow only immigrants to live here, then kick out their great-grandchildren to go experience some real grievances before they turn into lazy, trust-fund Americans.
It is not racist to talk about the culture of a country. The culture of China (the country!) is not the same the culture of Chinese Americans. I was very specific to note that they wouldn't want to live under the Chinese government (they wouldn't) not that they wouldn't want to live with Chinese people in general (I don't think any of the writers on this blog would care about living with Chinese people in the general sense).
When Hong Kong was being repatriated, for example, I would have been happy to accept most of the people of HK if they wanted to immigrate to the US (the Chinese government supporters I would not have wanted to accept).
So, in sum, don't impugn racism without basis, and rejection of open borders does not equal racism.
I was replying to ML more so than yourself. Your silly hypotheticals about the entire populations of India and China moving here are pretty ignorable. I'm not too worried.
It's not a silly hypothetical. If you are for open borders, you are for open borders. If you think there should be a limit, at all, then you aren't open borders and now we can have an appropriate discussion on what that limit should be.
Worldwide 160 million people want to migrate to the USA (out of 900 million that want to migrate). That number would go up significantly if the US accepted everyone who wanted to migrate. https://news.gallup.com/poll/468218/nearly-900-million-worldwide-wanted-migrate-2021.aspx
Culture is also not a monolith. Don't lump individuals into some group generalization just by citing 'culture.'
The majority of Chinese people (50-70%) support the CCP ( https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/chinese-communist-party-support-lower-when-surveys-anonymous/ ) . If they could suddenly move here en mass why wouldn’t they try to instill that government here as in China?
Moving in less than 25 million voting adults would get you control of 25 states (50% of the actual population,
Not the voting population), and thus the US senate.
China wouldn’t just do that? They’d be insane not to.
Making immigration policy based on odd extreme hypotheticals wherein you treat people like statistics seems bad.
And also they couldn’t vote if they did move over here, so you assume we install, this unrealistically large mass only in blue states? Who is doing the moving? Is it some Dem PRC coordination?
You low key might be the oddest dude posting in this thread.
It isn't that I want to base immigration policy on extreme hypotheticals. It is that the writers on this blog, when it comes to immigration, are open borders absolutists. The only way to discuss with an absolutist is to say "OK, you want this thing. Taken to it's true, logical conclusion, this will happen. Are you still okay with the thing you want".
For open borders enthusiast, it is mass influx into the United States, with the eventual grant of citizenship for those who immigrate. What is their limiting principle? Do they truly have none? The answer is of course they have one, even if it is not articulated. Once the limiting principle is discovered, then a discussion on actual policy choices can begin.
As to immigrants not being able to vote, if they come in via open borders they would be granted a green card (the right to work). It takes, on average, 5 - 7 years to become a citizen and vote after receipt of a green card. Of course they would eventually vote.
As to where they move (in the China hypothetical): The 25 least populous states, regardless of political leanings. 25 million persons is 50% of the population of each of those states.
Why would China need to coordinate with anyone? If the US had an actual open border policy (immigration without restriction) they would do it on their own. It would be completely in the national interests of China to do such a thing.
The point of the above is to show the absurdity of actual open borders. It's a ludicrous concept. If the goal is a more open immigration policy, argue concretely for a reasonable policy. Arguing for open borders actively hurts the cause of any push for more open immigration, as it makes even small moves seem like a trojan horse for the real goal (fully open borders).
My view of immigration is that it is a net positive and should be performed in such a way that we as a country benefit. I think illegal immigration is bad because it leads to (1) the exploitation of the worker who has immigrated and (2) reduced wages for those here as legal immigrants and as citizens.
The solution is to harshly penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants, mandate the e-verify system for all employers, and allow in immigrants who fit the profile of what we as a society deem important (nominally those who are hard working, have strong support for personal accountability and liberty and have a belief in civic society). Allow H1-B visas but mandate that it is not tied to employer to discourage the use of H1-B visas to reduce wages. Require that immigrants performing migrant labor (e.g. temporary visas) be paid a prevailing wage to ensure they aren't used to undercut US employee wages.
I'd also open up immigration visas to those who fill manual labor jobs where it could be demonstrated that the prevailing wage is not sufficient to entice workers. I am admittedly unsure on this last part, as I want to allow immigrants to fill jobs that Americans "won't do", but the reality is that most Americans would perform any job for the appropriate wage and there are very few that would not be filled. I'm unsure how this could really be regulated effectively.
Taken to it’s true, logical conclusion, this will happen.
But the parade of horribles you've concocted is not what would happen. It's a bizarro nonsense fantasy.
In a true, unlimited open borders policy, what would happen then? How many people would immigrate to the USA each year? Keep in mind 900 million people worldwide want to immigrate somewhere, and 160 million of those want to come to the USA.
What would be your limiting principle on open borders?
impute
Agreed about Hong Kong; I thought at the time we should have offered asylum to all the HK citizens the UK had stripped of their passports in order to trap them there for the handover.
I actually agree with you, so when the fuck are you leaving?
Somin has argued before that if the US took in every immigrant who wanted to come, it would only be like 30 million people.
I think there were that many at Ohare a few weeks ago
While there are actual "open borders" advocates, they're pretty rare. Mostly, the "open borders" rhetoric is used as a strawman to rile up racist conservatives and it is often accompanied by "replacement theory" and "blood and soil" arguments.
You must be new here. Ilya Somin is strongly in favor of opening the US's borders to everyone who wants to immigrate, except maybe major war criminals.
Assuming arguendo that this is evidence is correct, why would we expect that to remain the case if we removed all immigration restrictions?
Shhhhhhh. We don't talk about actual unrestricted immigration here. Only hypothetical, specially curated unrestricted immigration.
Well yeah, because the majority of Americans of both parties support immigration restrictions. If we talked about that, it would take away a one of the central rings of the current political circus.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/23/bipartisan-border-deal-vote-senate-schumer
My comment from the other thread on this:
Nobody has ever said that cramming more people into your country does not increase GDP. The question is who is benefiting from that increase. Increasing GDP doesn’t mean you aren’t harming the middle and working classes or whoever.
Assume for the sake of argument that one illegal immigrant comes into a country, and does not work or earn any wage. Further assume they get $10,000 in prepaid debit cards from Mayor Adams all of which is spent, and they receive $10,000 in health care from Kamala. That immigrant has now increased GDP by at least $20,000! Let’s say they also commit a violent crime or destroy some property – say, breaking a shop window. The shop owner spends $5,000 fixing the window that they would not have otherwise spent. Now the immigrant has increased GDP by $25,000! They are doing great.
That's a bad faith argument. Most immigrants (like most people) aren't criminals and want better lives.
The vast, vast majority of immigrants receive no assistance when coming to the country.
You can argue against open borders without such hyperbole, and without the focus on political party. This is a libertarian article, on a libertarian blog, written by a person who supports republicans. Adams and Harris aren't needed.
No, you misunderstood the point. I’m not saying that any immigrants are like the illustration here.
I’m just saying that pointing to an increase in GDP doesn’t prove anything relevant, at all.
The study he cites about the deficit has numerous other problems, for example, it ignores state and local spending. It ignores ALL discretionary spending. It includes many shaky assumptions. Overall, it is pie in the sky, the study itself admits that its projections are “very uncertain.”
Your argument boils down to: the GDP isn’t a useful metric.
a) I think economists would disagree
b) Why do you only mention you objections to the GDP as a metric when it's being used in favor of immigration? It has the aura of bad faith.
GDP, as defined by government, suffers from the same basic fallacy as Marx's labor theory of value: It doesn't distinguish between money spent on useful things, and money totally wasted. Digging holes and filling them counts towards GDP.
I see you've lost your faith in markets and capitalism all the sudden.
GDP, as defined by government
Haha you're getting more ignorant somehow.
GDP wouldn’t see paying someone to dig and fill holes.
Maybe you mean GDI?
Huh? Yes it would, if they're paid to do it.
No, GDP is useful for measuring what GDP measures.
But merely pointing to an increase in GDP does not establish how any potential benefits of that increase are distributed.
The fact that a particular policy might increase GDP does not mean that policy is beneficial for a nation as a whole, or for any group such as the middle class, or that the policy is otherwise good and desirable. Especially in the long term.
My thoughts on marginal increases to GDP as a policy argument are by no means limited to immigration. Massive amounts of government spending increases GDP, but you won’t find me arguing for that. Waging war on the other side of the globe increases GDP, but you won’t find me arguing for that.
As Brett said, digging holes and filling them back in. Or, breaking windows. If you had caught my allusion to this in my original post, you would have understood that my post from the start was not limited to immigration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
Massive amounts of government spending increases GDP, but you won’t find me arguing for that. Waging war on the other side of the globe increases GDP, but you won’t find me arguing for that.
And now we get to the truth of the matter. The GDP increases that come from government and wartime spending are generally beneficial. The biggest two reasons we have the economy that we do are WWII and the New Deal. You’re really arguing that you think the downsides of government and wartime spending outweigh the GDP benefits.
And I suspect that’s also how you feel about immigration. Even though it increases the GDP, and even though GDP increases are generally beneficial, you feel that the (unnamed, but probably racist) downsides of immigration outweigh those benefits.
Well, I'll be darned, you convinced me. Let's bomb Tehran tomorrow.
No. The New Deal brought us the Great Depression, and caused much more harm than good.
Oh my lol! Now there’s some revisionist history if ever I’ve heard it!
It’s like how the War of Northern Aggression brought us slavery, as they teach in Florida these days.
The New Deal started in 1933. The Great Depression lasted from then until about 1945.
"The GDP increases that come from government and wartime spending are generally beneficial."
So you think we'd be worse off economically if we hadn't spent all that money in Afghanistan and Iraq? That's an interesting take.
Let's talk about these stupid windows. Once again we see that broken-window-based theories are bunk.
As it turns out, the six francs spent fixing the window are a boon to the economy. Now we've got a whole nother person employed: the glazier. And there's no opportunity cost lost, because the glazier now has the six francs to spend. Most likely, the six francs would otherwise have just remained stuffed into the shopkeeper's snuff box, doing nobody any good.
Anyone living in the modern world should be able to see how wrong this broken window theory turned out to be. Not that long ago, products were "built to last." That's totally gone. These days everything has "planned obsolescence" designed into it. It's hard to find anything that's expected to last more than ten years; most consumer products like phones have a lifetime of five years or less. A sewing machine from the 1800s would work better today than one from the early 2000s. And yet, it's been a total economic success. Re-buying everything you own every few years is the equivalent of periodically getting your broken window fixed.
There is a downside, which is that it's harder to accrue wealth. That six francs in the snuff box is no longer there. Having to buy a new phone every few years means that money can't be saved up. But I think that's the whole point. Spending money is better for the economy than saving it. Saving money takes it out of the economy. Even loaning or investing that money isn't as effective as spending it in terms of boosting the economy.
I suggest going to India to see the principle in action. Saving money in India is a faux pas. Money is meant to be spent, even if it means paying one person to dig some holes and another to fill them back in.
"Now we’ve got a whole nother person employed: the glazier. And there’s no opportunity cost lost..."
Ipse Dixit?
Why are you assuming that glazier is idle if he's not fixing the window, or that his leisure is valueless?
Uh... because he took the gig?
That doesn't mean there's no opportunity cost.
And now the cobbler is idle.
Yes, did you read the article? It's a simplified "parable." Poking holes in the simplifying assumptions might be fun for some people...? But anyway, the opportunity cost mentioned in the article, and the one that I was referring to, was around other possible uses that the shopkeeper might have made of the six francs, not what the glazier might have otherwise spent his time on.
8% of Amurican Men are Felons, now there are Ted Bundy Felons, and Martha Stewart Felons, but current estimate is some 10-15 million Illegal Aliens currently in the US (Shouldn't it be a scandal we don't know how many?) so somewhere from 800,000-1,200,000 Felons offering to cut your grass.
Federal Prisons only house a little over 150,000 prisoners (NOT "Inmates" Asylums have "Inmates", Prisons have Prisoners
State Prisons house some 1,200,000, so you pretty much have the entire Federal/State Prison Prisoner population standing around at Home Depot to blow out your gutters
Frank
“Ah, your statistical argument is broken if I can invent one insane hypothetical anecdotal outlier!”
This is the argument of the very dumb, or the very zealous. But I repeat myself.
I'm sorry, when did you win a Nobel Prize in economics, again?
Last I checked, you were still using already debunked numbers on illegal immigrant crime to try to prove that illegal immigrants were more law abiding than natives.
I don't recall the Somin post you refer to, but he does make convenient errors like that.
But coming from the guy who has studied it out that illegals have a propensity to be criminal, this is fuck off levels of hypocritical.
Your source is your bigoted asshole.
Sarcastr0 31 mins ago
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“Your source is your bigoted asshole.”
Brett did not quote you, no reason to give yourself credit.
My source was linked to at the time, repeatedly. It's not MY fault you're allergic to evidence of anything you don't want to believe.
No ... no he was not.
No Ilya...no you are not smarter than Milton Friedman. Accept that he is correct here, and you are not, and that your arguments otherwise are disingenuous.
He may be wrong, but appeal to authority is still a fallacy.
You want to address the arguments he makes in his post, or just want to carp on the sidelines being an intellectually lazy hater.
(Full disclosure, I'm not gonna address his arguments either; I am absolutely rolling intellectually lazy hater at the moment. Just want AL to own what he's doing)
Come back when you can apologize for your lies and blood libel.
Jason below noticed the same lack of engagement.
Covering for laziness by making false accusations is pretty bottom of the barrel behavior.
Why should he accept it when the evidence suggests otherwise? Merely because you say so?
I couldn't help but notice that you did not engage with any of the arguments aside from calling them disingenuous and wrong. Perhaps that's because to do so would immediately demonstrate that, as usual, you're the one who's full of shit here.
The arguments have been engaged with multiple times. Somin repeating the same failed arguments doesn't make them right. You can argue the Earth is flat 6 ways from Sunday. You're still wrong.
"As Caplan points out, evidence indicates that most immigrants actually contribute more to the public fisc than they take out."
Then why is all of New York whining like a little girl who had her lollipop taken?
Maybe, just maybe, you should stop conflating legal immigrants and those illegal border crossing criminals.
Love to know what is quantified as "contribution" or expense. In my industry, we are currently besieged by immigrant's who show up medically compromised and parachuting into the health care system, uninsured. Then, their poor medical outcomes end up being the subject of medical malpractice suits that further drain resources. On the job accidents by low skilled-off the book workers, staged accidents by organized immigrant gangs, and other loads on the courts and insurance system are not likely being quantified in the wages and taxes based statistics.
To Ilya's broken windows mind that is all contribution. That there are fewer resources for the legal population isn't a concern as long as somebody somewhere is billibg more due to the illegal invasion.
"My immigration policy is that we should have one."
Hey you marxist twats might want to first consider NOT restricting the liberty of the people you rob to pay for your Welfare State. The fact you're perfectly fine with theft tells me you have no liberty concerns at all and are just looking for a means to implode Western Civilization.
As a test of this, what would happen if the federal government got out of the welfare business, and devolved it to the individual states?
I suspect that we'd see a great deal of movement of prospective welfare recipients moving to the states that offered the most benefits. At the same time, since higher benefits would seem to require higher taxes, we'd see the movement of businesses and high-income people out of those states, to places where taxes were lower.
So, I suspect, we'd see if we opened the borders to essentially unrestricted immigration. Restricting benefits for non-citizens would help some, but it wouldn't deal with the problem altogether: in particular, people with medical needs that they couldn't fulfill, given their income, in their countries of origin, would come to the US, where they couldn't be kicked out of hospital emergency rooms. Presumably, too, minor children would be eligible to attend US schools, which can place a heavy burden on local school districts: witness the situation in rural meat-packing towns in the Midwest, for instance.
I suspect that we’d see a great deal of movement of prospective welfare recipients moving to the states that offered the most benefits.
Probably.
At the same time, since higher benefits would seem to require higher taxes, we’d see the movement of businesses and high-income people out of those states, to places where taxes were lower.
No. Both high-income people and businesses want to be where the people are.
This is basically the story of California. For 200 years, poor people have been pouring into California and getting rich, both from inside and outside the US. Now its economy is bigger than 98% of countries' in the world.
Some Californians have gotten rich, but not the ones who came to California to collect welfare.
Suddenly you're concerned about the fate of the welfare class? You are really not very bright are you.
Businesses want to be where the people are, to the extent that they're permitted to keep their profits.
It's a fantasy on the left that people don't flee high taxes.
Also infrastructure.
Rule of law.
Language.
Civic society.
There’s actually a lot of factors! Taxes are one but there are countries with high individual and corporate tax rates that don’t lack for big companies sticking around.
Taxes ARE just one factor, sure. People are starting to notice that these factors are correlated; If an area has unusually high taxes, it will usually have burdensome regulations, declining rule of law, and an annoyingly polyglot population due to encouraging illegal immigrants.
California has been suffering from net out-migration, and only partially compensating by encouraging illegal immigrants to settle there, for years now. This is pretty common among 'blue' states.
This is coupled with a trend towards businesses fleeing the state, too.
Business have always left California. Just like residents, they get their start in California where they’re well-supported, then leave in their old age once they're wealthy enough.
It’s a fantasy on the left that people don’t flee high taxes.
Egg's premise was that people flock to places with government benefits.
Can't have it both ways.
Why take the risk that people are coming to the US just to tap into our social welfare system.
Our current legal immigration system has such common sense checks as requiring a police report showing a clean record, occupational history and a sponsorship agreement allowing the government to claw back welfare payments if they become a public charge.
I just went through it all sponsoring my Mother in Law.
Expand our current immigration system if you want more immigration, there are literally millions willing to come here legally and submit to background checks and pay the relatively modest processing fees.
And our current family based immigration system also helps transition immigrants into the country so they aren't sleeping in homeless shelters when they arrive,
I don't get the insistence on allowing unlimited illegal immigration.
I don’t get the insistence on allowing unlimited illegal immigration.
Literally nobody* is pro-illegal-immigration. Nor “open borders.” Both are just pathetic strawmen you invented because you can’t cope with the truth: your politics have run out of gas.
* Well, other than Milton himself. So perhaps he has some followers on the right who support illegal immigration as a way around labor laws and such. But not on the left.
Kamala Harris is in favor of letting everyone in, and not deporting anyone. So is the Libertarian Party candidate for President.
Not true about Kamala. It does seem to be essentially true about Chase. I guess Libertarians are the open-borders party after all.
So where has she shown a willingness to deport illegals?
They always were, it's just that, per Milton, the position used to be that open borders were something you'd only pursue after getting rid of the welfare state.
Ok, so there is not a deliberate effort to enable illegal immigration, ignoring the fact that they set up an app to allow people to fly here directly without being admitted, contrary to law.
Then if they are that incompetent they can't stop illegal immigration at these levels then they should not only lose the election, they should resign now.
Who, Congress? Yeah, probably.
What happened last time someone thought Milton Friedman didn't know what he was talking about?
Oh yeah, we got 9% inflation.
Love it!
Somin accusing anyone of being wrong about immigration is rich.
Well Ilya, you said a bunch of stuff, and supported it none at all. Quoting the CBO is pretty indicative of complete bullshit. Show us or reference the calculation ... if you dare.
Ayn Rand took out more from our welfare state in the in the late 1970s-82 than she paid in, and your reference argues that these uneducated immigrants produce more? cough, cough.... Sure, right!
He was factually right
Most people don't understand what their goal is. It's not Cloward-Piven. It's 2 tiered justice system, i.e., anarcho-tyranny. These military aged men will become the cadre of the new "enforcement" arm of the deep state, and when normal people resist, they are then the excuse for a complete crackdown/martial law.