The Volokh Conspiracy
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Rahimi and NetChoice: Why Is The Facial Challenge Bar Lowered For The First Amendment and Not The Second Amendment?
The right to keep and bear arms remains a second-class right.
This past term, the Court found that litigants failed to mount a proper facial challenge in two cases involving the Bill of Rights. In Rahimi, the Court refused to dismiss a criminal indictment because, under Salerno, the defendant could not show that there was "no set of circumstances" in which Section 922(g)(8) was constitutional. And in NetChoice, the Court found that the tech organization failed to bring a proper facial challenge. But the standard was different, and easier to satisfy.
Justice Kagan's NetChoice majority opinion explained this lower bar:
This Court has therefore made facial challenges hard to win.
That is true even when a facial suit is based on the First Amendment, although then a different standard applies. In other cases, a plaintiff cannot succeed on a facial challenge unless he "establish[es] that no set of circumstances exists under which the [law] would be valid," or he shows that the law lacks a "plainly legitimate sweep." United States v. Salerno, 481 U. S. 739, 745 (1987); Washington State Grange, 552 U. S., at 449. In First Amendment cases, however, this Court has lowered that very high bar. To "provide[] breathing room for free expression," we have substituted a less demanding though still rigorous standard. United States v. Hansen, 599 U. S. 762, 769 (2023). The question is whether "a substantial number of [the law's] applications are unconstitutional, judged in relation to the statute's plainly legitimate sweep." Americans for Prosperity Foundation v. Bonta, 594 U. S. 595, 615 (2021); see Hansen, 599 U. S., at 770 (likewise asking whether the law "prohibits a substantial amount of protected speech relative to its plainly legitimate sweep"). So in this singular context, even a law with"a plainly legitimate sweep" may be struck down in its entirety. But that is so only if the law's unconstitutional applications substantially outweigh its constitutional ones.
Why does the Court lower the bar for the First Amendment, but not the Second Amendment? Why does free speech require "breathing room" but self-defense does not? Did anyone in the Rahimi majority even notice this disparate treatment? The cases were decided a week apart, so both issues were in their minds.
In case after case, a different set of rules applies to the First and Second Amendments. With free speech, the Court's progressives makes up doctrine willy-nilly without any concern for originalism. But for the Second Amendment, the Court's progressives insist on a rigorous application of history, with a framework that exudes deference to the government at every step.
Nearly two decades after Heller, the Second Amendment remains a second-class right.
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They're ALL second class rights aside from the 1st amendment. The 2nd amendment is being treated as a third class right.
Look, the only reason you got Heller, McDonald, Bruen, is that principle forced them to those positions. It's not like they like the 2nd amendment, the way they do the 1st.
I question how much they actually like the First, when they trample all over freedom of association with affirmative action and other racism.
I think we're talking about the current Court, not the judiciary as a whole.
Heller and McDonald tend not to fare well when up against Reality. The 2A doesn't have "penumbras" extending outward; instead it is subject to termites eating inward. That's how we got Rahimi. More will follow.
It's kind of silly to treat your own policy preferences and prejudices as "Reality", even as your views only dominate in a shrinking fraction of the country.
But that IS sort of what's going on here: The conservative Court majority largely share both, they only ruled as they did in Heller and McDonald because principle dragged them kicking and screaming to it. But Rahimi shows that principles have their limits when they collide directly, not tangentially, with deep seated preferences.
Which reality is that?
The reality that there is no originalist, "first class right" reason for keeping guns out of the hands of provably dangerous wife abusers.
Once you've bothered to prove it, rather than just assert it.
You do know how you prove people guilty of crimes right? By trying and convicting them.
No, there is no originalist right to have even a convicted violent person robbed of his guns.
Wife beating was a husband's prerogative in 1787. Originalism!
Feminist fiction, along with 'the rule of thumb". Wife beating wasn't a distinct crime, it was just another form of assault.
When I was a law review editor (1991 or so), in editing a student submission I looked up the “rule of thumb”. I realized it was actually an early attempt to limit the amount of violence a husband was allowed to perpetrate on his wife (I made this comment when I returned the submission, which probably pissed off the writer who was making a feminist point). The source of the rule seemed to be an early 1800’s case from Mississippi (I think). What this means is that the right of a wife not to be beaten was hardly “deeply rooted” in our nation’s history or tradition. Certainly a respectable husband wouldn’t do it, but that’s a different question.
You appear to have realized incorrectly: Brett Bellmore’s uncharacteristically accurate
point is that the “rule of thumb” (in the sense of a law authorizing certain types of domestic violence) never existed. Not unlike the “jus prima nocta”, it’s an urban legend that people used to condemn their neighbors who supposedly used it as backwards simpletons. (“Can’t keep up clingers”, perhaps, to use the parlance of our times.)
You needed to look up deeper. Like, maybe even just read the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia article I linked to. It's feminist mythology.
” Despite there being no record that Buller ever said this, the rumor produced numerous jokes and satirical cartoons at his expense, with Buller being ridiculed as “Judge Thumb”.
Many feminists back in the 18th Century? If it was ‘mythology,’ it was more than feminist mythology.
A basic problem with prosecuting domestic violence in the 18th Century was testimonial immunity.
Judges also rarely intervened in private marital affairs. Spousal rape, for instance, was extremely hard to prosecute even if the state wished to do so. Men was assumed to have some general right to control their wives, who were treated legally akin to children in a variety of ways.
There is no “feminist mythology” concerning the general reality that domestic violence was much more tolerated in the 18th Century.
The original link also noted:
English jurist Sir William Blackstone wrote in his Commentaries on the Laws of England of an “old law” that once allowed “moderate” beatings by husbands, but he did not mention thumbs or any specific implements.
The full quote:
“THE husband also (by the old law) might give his wife moderate correction. For, as he is to answer for her misbehavior, the law thought it reasonable to entrust him with this power of restraining her, by domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his servants or children; for whom the master or parent is also liable in some cases to answer. But this power of correction was confined within reasonable bounds”
It is far from apparent that this rule was somehow totally defunct c. 1800 America.
Thus, he later speaks of the “politer” times but adds …
“Yet the lower rank of people, who were always fond of the old common law, still claim and exert their ancient privilege: and the courts of law will still permit a husband to restrain a wife of her liberty, in case of any gross misbehavior.”
And, per the remark that the alleged rule of thumb tempered the old rule, he cites the allowance of a husband to (translating the Latin):
"To beat his wife severely with whips and sticks"
https://lonang.com/library/reference/blackstone-commentaries-law-england/bla-115/
There's no originalist right for you to let your husband bust inside you with his HIV infected fluids, but you people insist that that's what the Due Process Clause was meant to cover.
Well, it is the second amendment after all. There are people who could argue with some justice that, say, the fourth amendment is a fourth-class right or the eighth amendment is an eighth class right. (Part of my retirement plan is to lock myself up in the library for a few months and become the nation's leading third amendment expert.) Each type of right has its own peculiar limits. Some make sense, some don't. Like everything else.
Except that it's actually the 4th amendment, it's just that the first two didn't get ratified.
The First Amendment had to do with automatically increasing the size of the House with increasing population, and the Second Amendment was the Congressional pay amendment that eventually got ratified as the 27th amendment, a couple centuries late.
Unratified provisions are not part of the Constitution. It is the Second Amendment of the actual Constitution.
Exactly. They are numbered for a reason. It works the same for the 10 commandments. The first few are about god and his ego. It takes until the last few before anything about coveting the neighbor's house or wife is mentioned. Obviously god put the lower numbered commandments at the top because they are higher class commandments. And that history and tradition can be applied directly to the constitution and its amendments. God was setting the example to be used, clearly.
Ya can't beat a good logic.
You do realize that, depending on which version you read, the Commandments are in completely different order, right?
Hmm, I don’t know about completely different order, but you are right that there are some significant differences. Also, that how different statements get grouped together as a single commandment varies, I think.
Why do people see a difference between speech and an admittedly violent criminal having a gun?
Only a lawyer would struggle with this question.
Why do people see a difference between libelers and counterfeiters and an admittedly peaceful hunter?
Why does free speech require "breathing room" but self-defense does not?
Self-defense in this country does have "breathing room" in practice. I put aside that the 2A was not ratified to deal with "self-defense" which was a separate common law concern. I do so partially since I'm not an originalist & the law developed significantly since 1791.
There are certain differences. Speech and bullets are not the same thing.
Also, the current Second Amendment doctrine began less than twenty years ago. It takes time for it to develop a level of respect and protection than something that started in the 1920s and 1930s.
The First Amendment deals with things that are at the basis of self-government and a person's relationship with their creator. Voting is involved in multiple constitutional amendments. On that front, I can understand things too.
Facial challenges to the First Amendment have a different standard because they are chilling lawful speech. In other words, the uncertainty about whether you would be prosecuted for what you say prevents you from saying it at all.
A Second Amendment challenge makes more sense "as applied" because it isn't chilling lawful gun ownership in the same way. For starters, every sentence uttered might have a different analysis. A person's right to own a firearm doesn't fluctuate from minute to minute. Given that, it's far easier to litigate it once and be done. You can't do that with the First Amendment. Second, prior restraint is highly disfavored with the First Amendment. To create a legal framework where you needed judicial clearance before you said anything is the definition of prior restraint.
Given the 'red flag' laws, a person's right to own a firearm very much does "fluctuate from minute to minute" and is subject to vague, indecipherable and ever-varying interpretations of both circumstances and the law. You are correct that prior restraint is highly disfavored with the First Amendment. It should be equally disfavored in the context of the Second.
Red flag laws have lots of issues in addition to the Second Amendment (such as Due Process and Fourth Amendment). However, I don't think the laws chill gun ownership. Are there people out there who say they would buy a gun, but are worried that they'll be hit by a red flag law and that gun will be taken, so they'd rather not? If not, the harm hasn't happened until a firearm is taken away. It wouldn't be ripe at that point.
That isn't to say that a red flag law can't be challenged facially - either an argument that those laws violate the Second Amendment in all cases or they're void for vagueness and violate Due Process. What it does say is, if the person who it is applied to has no lawful right to a firearm and the red flag law mechanism is a valid mechanism to restrict that right, that person can't ask for the gun back.
That's bullshit. If you're being kept from carrying in a park because of an unconstitutional law, your right has fluctuate from minute to minute.
Not being able to carry your gun in the park seems pretty applied.
But the law isn't going to depend on whether the firearm is on the right side or left side or whether the weather in the park is sunny or cloudy. You can challenge the law as violating the second amendment as applied to that park without saying that a law banning possessing a firearms in places is unconstitutional in all cases.
Perhaps the gun nuts should start litigating free exercise claims.
As Garry Wills observed in the wake of Sandy Hook, the gun is our Moloch. We sacrifice children to him daily. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2012/12/15/our-moloch/
After all, the difference between ritual child sacrifices by gun worshippers and the animal sacrifices by Santeria practitioners (upheld in Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993)) is slight.
It’s one thing to go through the reasons historically made for a well-established distinction, say one disagrees with them, and explain why. That’s what scholars and experts do.
It’s another thing to see a well-established distinction, act with shock at seeing it, and say, “Hey! You wouldn’t believe this, but there’s this stupid crazy distinction out there nobody’s noticed before!” That’s what ignorant amateurs with inflated egos and a whopper of a case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome tend to do.
The right to keep and bear arms remains a second-class right.
When people use and store their guns properly, accidents where someone is shot and possibly killed are rare. A person in the household that has mental health problems would have a hard time getting access to the gun(s) and harming themselves or others.
When people take care with what they say, they don't harm others with their words intentionally or unintentionally. They don't spread lies about others, even unknowingly. They don't defraud someone, even unknowingly, such as by telling someone buying their used car that it runs "fine" because you weren't having any problems, but the transmission goes out a week later because you weren't maintaining it properly. They don't offend people with grossly insensitive language about their backgrounds, even if they don't realize that what they said was insensitive. (Like a kid telling a "dumb Polack" joke to someone with parents or grandparents from Poland.)
When people are careless with their legally owned guns, accidents where someone is shot or even killed can and do happen. People with legally owned guns that are depressed or suffer from even worse mental health problems can and do harm or even kill themselves or others. (Sometimes and others - aka murder-suicide.)
When people are careless with how they speak, but still aren't intending to offend or deceive other people, they will spread defamatory lies about other people. They will offend them with ugly language about their backgrounds. They will pass on lies that cause others to lose money or buy defective products or the like.
When people intend to do bad things with guns, people will be very likely to get hurt or killed.
When people intend to do bad things with words, they will knowingly defame others. They will be inciting others to violence. They will be engaging in fraud.
The facts are that the misuse of guns or unlucky accidents with guns handled with care can be deadly very easily. The misuse of words is much less likely to lead to physical harm, and it is much easier to remedy harm to reputation or property than someone's body.
There are few benefits to individuals or society, and a great many harms to liberty, in punishing speech except in very narrow circumstances. There are even fewer benefits to prior restraint of speech, except in even more narrow circumstances.
To what extend can we say the same for gun ownership?
The vast majority of people do use and store their guns properly and accidents where someone is shot are rare.
On the other hand, people regulary harm others with their words both intentionally and unintentionally and regularly spread lies about others sometimes knowingly, sometimes not. According to published crime statistics, frauds vastly outnumber gun crimes.
Since your starting premises are precisely backwards, it’s unsurprising that your conclusion is also wrong. Yes, guns are dangerous. So are swimming pools, cars, electric drills and thousands of other tools that we use and depend on regularly. Guns are merely another tool – one hopefully to be used as rarely as your fire extinguisher but just as essential. And explicitly protected because history shows very clearly that governments cannot be trusted to decide who can and cannot have them. Just like history shows that governments cannot be trusted to decide who is telling the truth and who is not.
I'll reread what I wrote to check, but my first impression is that you are misidentifying my premises and my argument. My premise is that the consequences of misuse of guns have far greater potential for physical harm than speech. The frequency with which guns are misused vs. speech was not part of my argument. You might say that it should be, but that is different than saying that my premises are wrong on that count when it is not included in my premise at all.
A second premise that I put forth is that the nature of harms from speech (or the written word) are mostly in the form of false statements (lies). I then put forth a corollary that these harms can be corrected or at least mitigated far more easily than physical harms. There can also be bigotry and hatred in speech, which is protected by the principle of freedom of speech (even in western countries without protections as strong as the 1st Amendment, the principle is still there), but the proper response to that is to attempt to counter it with better speech. Actual incitement to violence, engaging in criminal conspiracies, etc., is not legally protected, and though they can result in physical harm, there is still an opportunity to intervene before that occurs. (Not to mention that the potential for harm from that is less when guns aren't involved!)
Lastly, I left the conclusion somewhat open, as I pose a question. It was not entirely rhetorical. I was looking for someone to suggest ways in which the harms from guns could be mitigated to an extent that the harms from speech can be while not exceeding the level of restrictions placed on speech to do so.
I do see that the frequency with which guns harm people plays into the trade offs between liberty and safety that people would accept. But my main point, really, is that the nature of the problems with guns makes it extremely difficult to compare how we deal with the two issues. Thus, it is not a well argued position to say that gun rights are "second class" compared to other rights.
I posed a question looking for a gun rights supporter to try and compare them accurately to prove me wrong, but the part of posing the question that was rhetorical is that I don't expect a successful answer.
Guns are merely another tool – one hopefully to be used as rarely as your fire extinguisher but just as essential.
I disagree with that. Guns are more than a tool. People don't use circular saws for "fun" in anything like the way people use guns for sport shooting and hunting for sport. And to the extent that there are tools, they are tools designed for killing animals and people. The analogy to fire extinguishers is also flawed. A fire extinguisher is meant to solve the problem of something being on fire. The fire extinguisher is nothing at all like the causes of any fires and has nothing to do with any fires that occur other than to potentially put them out. The main reason people want guns to protect themselves is so that they can effectively deal with other people with guns. If few people have guns, the odds of needing one to protect yourself is lowered substantially. Fewer people having fire extinguishers would not lower the risk of fires at all. In fact, it might make it more likely that a small fire that starts elsewhere would spread before effective tools could brought to put it out.
And the "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" doesn't work the way the statement claims. Criminals have to get their guns from somewhere, and that means obtaining guns that were originally purchased legally a huge fraction of the time. They steal guns from people that don't keep theirs locked up, they buy them from legal gun owners in states that don't require private sales to include a background check, or they bought them legally when they didn't have a criminal record and then commit a crime. Fewer legal guns in the population means fewer opportunities for criminals to get them as well.
And explicitly protected because history shows very clearly that governments cannot be trusted to decide who can and cannot have them.
I don't see that at all, as there are dozens of western countries that restrict private gun ownership far more than the U.S. does. If you are looking only at infamous dictatorships and other authoritarian regimes of the 20th and current century, then you will obviously find cases where such regimes restricted private gun ownership severely. So, what else is different between, say, Nazi Germany and the government of the U.S. where gun rights and ownership is much higher? Could it be strong institutional protections for freedom of speech and the press? That explains some of it. But the most important protection against authoritarianism is actually the right to vote in free and fair elections that matter. Would-be authoritarians can't take over if we carefully maintain the ability to vote them out when they even start to weaken our other rights.
That is why the obsession with the 2nd Amendment bothers me so much. Voting rights are the most essential component of maintaining a free republic. The conservative judges and justices that have expanded gun rights and are trying to expand them further are also working to weaken the Voting Rights Act and enable majorities in state legislatures to lock in their control. (Through gerrymandering, for example, which also affects control of the U.S. House of Representatives.)
The truly fringe legal ideas like the "independent state legislature" theory are even bigger threats that are getting some serious consideration on the right. That idea would seem to allow a state legislature to totally disregard the results of the presidential vote, after the election, and appoint Electors that they choose instead. Such an extreme version of that theory would also make even a state's supreme court or a governor's veto unable to stand in the way of a state legislature intent on subverting its residents' voting rights. Fortunately, even Justice Thomas and Alito didn't sign on to that idea in Moore v. Harper, but that it would even manage to get put forth in a SCOTUS case is scary, to me.
My opinions:
For people concerned about needing to protect themselves from criminals with guns, they should focus on making guns less available rather than arming themselves, since making it easier for law-abiding citizens to obtain guns also makes it easier for criminals to get them.
For people concerned about the government getting enough power to really harm our rights irrevocably (and people that want to do that getting control of government), focus on protecting every voter's rights so that such individuals can be voted out before they do such harm to our other rights.
One last part about that last suggestion: Protecting voting rights can't just be about me wanting to protect my right to vote (or for you to protect your right to vote). I have to work to protect everyone's right to vote equally. I currently align with the Democratic Party the most. But I want Republicans to have an equal right to vote so that Democrats can be successfully voted out if the Democratic Party goes too far, even in my view. If I start to doubt the Democrats and want them out, there will certainly be too many Democrats voting to keep them for me to do it alone in primaries. Most loyal Democrats would call me a DINO and dismiss what I have to say as a warning that the party is going in the wrong direction. I will need to be able to count on Republicans to vote them out in the general election, and the wrong type of candidates losing in the general election will eventually convince most Democrats not to support that type of candidate.
Most of all, though, supporting everyone's equal right to vote is the right thing to do.
Well, if you dismiss or place little value on the advantages of being armed, obviously there won't be much in the way of downsides to prior restraint of gun ownership. Gun controllers do typically do that.
Is this one of the advantages of being armed?
You have a problem with civil rights.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/03/31/Public-housing-residents-want-gun-sweeps/3117765090000/