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Mission to Israel Part IV: What I Learned About The Israeli Politics With Regard To The Hostages
If you think American politics are corrosive, hold my falafel.
[This is the four post in my series on my mission to Israel. You can read Parts I, II, and III.]
Though I don't particularly care for American politics, I generally understand how the various systems work. With regard to foreign governments, I neither care about their political systems, nor understand how they work. I write this post about Israeli political system with some trepidation, but I think it is relevant to understand the current situation with regard to the hostages.
In December 2022, Benjamin Netanyahu (known as Bibi) formed a government in parliament. His coalition included several members from (what are known as) far-right parties. A leading charge of the new government was judicial reform. Indeed, as I wrote in Part III, these reforms were viewed as essential to liberate the people from the rule of elite lawyers. Unsurprisingly, elite lawyers who wield this power opposed these changes. These proposals triggered massive nationwide protests. Every Saturday night, people took to the streets of Israel to oppose changing the courts. They went on labor strikes and shut down roads. Society ground to a halt. Indeed, these protests spread to America, though I suspect most of the people marching knew as much about the Israeli Supreme Court as the kids at Columbia know which river and sea border Israel. After sustained protests, the government backed away from most of the proposals. (And those proposals that were passed were later declared unconstitutional.)
But then October 7 happened. And at least for a while, the protests ceased. I think most Israelis formed a sense of solidarity. There was a collective purpose--to bring the hostages home. Throughout Israel, signs appear with the faces of the hostages. The English translation reads "Bring them home," "Bring him home," or "Bring her home." But not everyone agreed on what those signs mean. Was it a charge to Hamas to release the hostages? Or was it a charge to the Netanyahu government to negotiate with Hamas to bring the hostages home?
Soon enough, the Saturday night protests returned. During my visit, the protest on the nine month anniversary of 10/7 swept across the nation. I asked what exactly the people were protesting: the return of the hostages or the Netanyahu government. The answer was both. The dynamics here are complicated.
Some of the protestors are calling for an immediate ceasefire to ensure the release of the hostages. Their sole priority is to bring the hostages home, and they will deal with the consequences later. But if Netanyahu agrees to a cease-fire, the "far right" members would leave the coalition, which would result in the dissolution of the current government. And if Netanyahu loses power, critics say, he will become more vulnerable to criminal prosecution on a host of long-standing allegations. So, critics contend, Netanyahu refuses to agree to a ceasefire, even if one would release the hostages, in order to ensure his government continues, and he stays out of legal hot water. Critics of Netanyahu consistently repeat this refrain. See this article in the Jerusalem Post. But things are not that simple.
I asked several critics of Netanyahu to imagine that a ceasefire is reached, a new government is formed, and the hostages are released. What policy should this new government adopt towards Hamas? The answer was consistently I don't know. I ask them what should Israel do to prevent Hamas from rebuilding its terror network and infrastructure. They don't know. So as unpopular as Netanyahu's policy is now, I'm not sure that the critics really have any other idea--other than to reach a ceasefire to return the hostages. Regrettably, many Americans on the left suffer from TDS--Trump Derangement Syndrome. I think at least some Israelis suffer from a different type of BDS--Bibi Derangement Syndrome. They are so morally opposed to everything Bibi does that they are unable to see some of the value in the difficult decisions he is making.
Then there is the issue of what a ceasefire would entail. As one international lawyer explained to me, every state retains the inherent power of self defense. Even if some deal was reached with Hamas, there is a 100% chance the terrorist organization would breach that agreement and engage in future terrorist attacks. 100%. And those attacks would allow Israel to immediately resume hostilities. One lawyer told me, half-jokingly, that Israel should agree to whatever terms Hamas demands because the terrorists will promptly breach any agreement, thus allowing Israel to resume strikes.
Certainly Hamas understands these dynamics. So why would they ever release all of the hostages? This is their leverage. One lawyer told me that taking a hostage was a very cost-effective means of pressuring Israel. Keeping the hostages also ensures that the weekly protests continue, and Israeli society remains divided. This strategy allows the nation to consume itself. One of the few hostages who was freed from captivity relayed that his captor--who freelanced as a "journalist"--showed him the protests on television. These protests are being used as propaganda by the terrorists to demoralize the hostages. Similar tactics were used during Vietnam with prisoners of war.
All of this is to say that the political situation in Israel is beyond complex. About half the nation hates Netanyahu but there is no coherent strategy, other than a ceasefire that will likely not hold, and will not result in the return of all hostages, but would likely allow Hamas to rebuild its terror infrastructure.
If you think American politics are corrosive, hold my falafel.
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"Similar tactics were used during Vietnam with prisoners of war."
Hamas got those tactics from the same place as North Vietnam, the Soviet Union.
It's a shame that Russia doesn't get the full credit for their part in creating the problems in this world.
General Patton apparently said the US military shouldn’t have stopped in Germany in ’45.
He was right.
Imagine there was no Cold War. How different (better) Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, the ME, and East Asia would be today…
And there'd be no Ilya Somin either...
It's back! Tired of the Bwaaah handle?
Or is it Kaz?
?
There's NFW that we could have pushed the Soviets out of Europe.
Nukes, my friend.
Bingo. 2-3 nukes, detonated in unpopulated areas of Siberia, and the Russians retreat.
The window of opportunity, I believe General LeMay (or someone comparable) called it.
(With apologies to Tuco) You know nothing of Roosha Noth-ink!!!!!!
Frank
In 1945? Sure we could but for a country tired from fighting a two front war it would have been hard to get public opinion to support it.
The North Koreans perfected the tactics, the Soviets were more into the Gulag.
"About half the nation hates Netanyahu but there is no coherent strategy . . . . "
And the other half's plan is ???
Prioritizing the destruction of Hamas, or its ability to reconstitute itself enough to launch meaningful attacks after the war, over recovering the hostages.
VICTORY!, of course.
I asked several critics of Netanyahu to imagine that a ceasefire is reached, a new government is formed, and the hostages are released. What policy should this new government adopt towards Hamas? The answer was consistently I don't know. I ask them what should Israel do to prevent Hamas from rebuilding its terror network and infrastructure. They don't know.
If one has loved ones held hostage, that would seme to be top priority, regardless of how to respond in the larger picture.
Note this is completely separate from doing the bidding of Hamas because western folk don't like what's going on, or BBDS.
"If one has loved ones held hostage"
Except the number of critics are far broader than those who have loved ones hostages. They are just opportunistically exploiting the understandable concern for the hostages to try to bring Netanyahu down.
"who wiled this power"
I think you mean "wielded"
Looks like a typo for wield or wielded to me, too.
Or an autocorrect substitution.
It's actually quite simple to understand -- Netanyahu and Trump are both Populists. There is a worldwide wave of Populism forming, which the establishment seeks to quash.
I think there is a great deal to criticize about Bibi, separate from whether you agree with his overall political views.
Just a couple of examples:
He could have formed a government that didn’t include the most incendiary far-right members, particularly since at one point he had a government of national unity that invluded some center-left members.
Focusing resources and attention on protecting settlements in the West Bank arguably drained resources and attention from politically less important but strategically more important defenses against Hamas and Hezbolah. His government missed multiple early warning signs in Gaza because they were focusing on political objectives, not critical national security needs.
Don't you mean 'preventing' settlements in the West Bank?
No, Bibi has long favored settlements. I meant what I wrote. I’m just pointing out that looking at things purely pragmatically, his efforts to promote and protect settlements resulted in focusing so much of the government’s attention on the West Bank that it distracted it from politically less important but strategically more vital concerns. I’m making a purely pragmatic comment, whether you agree or disagree with Bibi’s politics.
ReaderY, not sure I agree, entirely.
PM Netanyahu ran against, and defeated Yair Lapid and the Left. The failure to persuade Lieberman to join the coalition forced the PM to build a coalition with Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir. Naftali Bennet took a very opportunely timed 'politics time out' (so did Shaked). To be fair, Bibi's choices were very limited....because of his own past behavior.
Post the 10/7 Simchat Torah pogrom, the settlement question is no longer a question. Israel is moving forward (as they should).
It starts with hamas being utterly defeated, and seen as defeated throughout the arab world. That is very important. Israel needs to step on the gas and kill more hamas members faster.
I hope Bibi shows the same level of foresight in setting up the 10/7 commission as he did in appointing Aharon Barak to advocate for Israel. PM Netanyahu 'owns' some of the failure of 10/7. Post war, it will be time to exit the stage gracefully.
The settlement question seems likely to be existential for Israel.
That Israel would engage in such disgusting conduct, lose American support it seems to need, and sustain such risk seems inexplicable, but that is Israelis' call.
After all, it's their funeral.
1500 Funerals due to 10-7, and that was with Amurican “Support”. Israel only takes Uncle Sammy’s Shekels to let Amurican politicians brag about supporting Israel, I’d rather they give it to charity
Frank
I don't think Israel would last a month without America's political, economic, and military skirts to hide behind.
I expect to see that proposition tested in the field, perhaps relatively soon.
I make the over-under on accountability for Israel's right-wing belligerents (Israel, as currently recognizable as a theocratic, bigoted, war-criming, oppressive right-wing state, no longer exists) to be one year from America's cessation of subsidies to Israel.
Who wants the over, who takes the under, and why?
I’ll take that bet for the over, happily. Here’s why.
Once it’s widely believed (sincerely believed) that America no longer has Israel’s back, Hezbollah, the Youthis, Syria, Iran, and others will ratchet up attacks on Israel a couple of months later.
Without American military support, and facing existential ruin, especially in the face of 150, 000 missiles from Southern Lebanon and Syria, Israel’s response is nuclear.
Israel gets badly damaged; its neighbours, however, are radioactive.
Further threats from the Dar Al-Islam are deterred because they understand that their holiest cities now genuinely face the prospect of nuclear obliteration. (No more Hajj. No more Kaaba. Perhaps even, longer-term, no more faith.)
Accordingly, their efforts are directed towards Israel’s cultural delegitimization, economic boycotts, and violent attacks on Israelis and Jews globally.
However, a nuclear war in the ME will have positive effects in Europe—in the form of a series of crises. It will lead to a clampdown on immigration, rachet up anti-immigration sentiment, and perhaps even accelerate the EU’s demise. All important forms of progress for reason-prioritising, science-supporting, cultural-genocide-opposing, freedom-loving Europeans.
All the while, America will continue to protect its energy interests in the Gulf. This will put it at direct loggerheads with the D-a-I, who won’t be very happy that a portion of their numbers have died from WMDs from a country long supported by America. They will either try to push the American/Western military and companies out of the Gulf, will invite China in too, or something along those lines.
A poorer, demographically smaller, Israel gets closer to a liberated European Continent.
America meanwhile continues its decline in global standing, continues to steadily lose support from its allies for its global schemes, and keeps marching towards civil strife domestically.
China continues to rise in power, gains a greater share of ME energy, takes a greater slice of the African pie, and secures stronger ties with South America.
The problem with betting you, of course, AIDS, is that you're an illogical, parochial American ignoramus who mistakes his dogmas and values for genuine knowledge.
YOUR assessment of what I've written above is, and could be, of no more value than that of a mentally retarded child. (Although a retarded European child probably KNOWS more about the world than you do, to be fair.)
From the river to the sea, appears to be more appropriate for Israel than Palestine. Because they appear to be wiping out the Palestinians from border to border. Getting displaced from the West Bank. Probably half million homeless in Gaza
What I’ll say here is that notwithstanding my attempts to defend Israel’s right to exist, reject “settler colonialism” claims, and point out that what Israel is doing in Gaza is, far from being “genoicide,” just ordinary combat no different from what the US and other Western democracies have done in their multiple recent wars on tbe Middle East, and notwithstanding even my arguments that much of the anti-Israel rhetoric is built on a sort of romanticised antebellum mythology with Jews vilified as the devils who destroyed a supposed Palestinian paradise not much different from Ex-Confederate romanticizing sbout the Old South and vilifiication of black people as its sinful destroyers, nonetheless I am far from an enthusiastic supporter of or believer in the current Israeli government, a number of its policies, and even its competence. My opinions are, in this matter as in some others, nuanced, and therefore hard to comprehend to people whose positions are firmly polemical.
He could have formed a government that didn’t include the most incendiary far-right members, particularly since at one point he had a government of national unity that included some center-left members.
that is actually not true. Netanyahu would have preferred such a coalition, but the left of center parties explicitly said they would not form a government with him at the head, and that's the reason he was forced to include the far right,
"Prime Minister Lapid and Defense Minister Gantz have both said they would not partner with Netanyahu and committed to sitting in the opposition after November 1’s election delivered a decisive 64-seat majority to Likud and its right-religious bloc in the 120-seat Knesset."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/likud-lapid-and-gantz-deny-report-that-theyre-in-unity-government-talks/
You think Netanyahu bears no responsibility for this state of affairs, not just left-wing people but even right-wing people who had once been trusted lieutenants just started hating him for no good reason?
That’s on him.
I mean, from a purely pragmatic national security point of view, wouldn’t you think a guy who manages to piss off so many competent people who ordinarily would be perfectly willing to join a national unity government in wartime that he has to turn to (I’ll put it gently) incompetent idealogues who enjoy pissing foreign allies off for the sheer entertainment value of baiting them, might be a bit of a national security problem if Israel should get into a pinch and need those allies?
"Regrettably, many Americans on the left suffer from TDS–Trump Derangement Syndrome. I think at least some Israelis suffer from a different type of BDS–Bibi Derangement Syndrome."
It's funny how many on the Right can't see that there might be a TDS (or BDS) that runs the other way...
I think the problem with this general argument is that, for all my disagreements with people like Rev. Kirkland, I am fully aware there is a fraction of the Israeli right, with Ben Gvir and Smotrich its most prominent representatives, that wants not only to formally annex occupied territories, but also to evict and expell their Palestinian population and seize their land and property.
Just recently, families of murdered hostages held a major public protest against providing lawyers to Hamas terrorists, arguing they should simply be summarily shot and money shouldn’t be wasted on rediculous Western formalities.
So in the absence of a written constitution or fully agreed norms, I think that if things were left up to pure democracy, in a country where the West Bank Arab population aren’t citizens and can’t vote, we could end up with a situation where the majority totally tramples over the minority.
In that regard. i think an overly lineral, overreaching judiciary is the lesser of the evils.
I’d prefer a constitution with enumerated rights that the courts stick to. But Israel doesn’t have that. And in its absence, we have to work with what we have and ask not what’s ideal but what’s the least bad approach under the available choices.
Sorry, overly liberal overreaching judiciary.
ReaderY, PM Netanyahu originally came to power, in part, because of an overreaching liberal judiciary. That overreach has been decisively rejected by the people of Israel, and we are seeing the reaction play out, writ large.
Israel is not 'a little America'. They live in a very tough neighborhood, with a different set of moral and cultural values.
Israel has become a country of theocratic right-wing bigotry; right-wing partisanship with respect to American support and politics; West Bank terrorism; right-wing corruption; and war crimes. The consequences seem predictable. I hope better Israelis emigrate to the United States before Israel gets what it deserves.
All indicia of the sort of places where ‘top’ American unis look to place satellite campuses.
I do hope you have an exit strategy for your children from the United States, AIDS. They won’t be tolerated there much longer.
The problem with an overreaching judiciary as a solution to bad political forces, is that people seldom overreach that selectively...
Nevermind. Brett already noted it.
I do want to say that the destruction of Hamas is a completely legitimate war objective. Hamas shills who decry it as somehow illegal/immoral vengeance are simply borrowing a well-tried tactic from Confederate and Nazi shills. Since the Confederate shills were particularly successful at this tactic, I suppose you can’t blame the Hamas shills for trying it.
One can argue about which goal. returning the hostages or destroying Hamas, should be the more pressing one. But since both are completely legitimate war objectives, the decision as to which one to focus on is entirely Israel’s and its elected government’s to make. Israel’s right to defend itself includes the right to make the same ordinary strategic decisions as other countries. Other countries, the US included, went for unconditional surrender when a lesser objective was arguably preferable.
Are there many people decrying the destruction of Hamas as an objective? I know there's lots of people who want to make sure that objective is achieved while trying to limit civilian casualties and according to some sense of the rules of war, or that it is secondary to getting hostages back, etc., but methinks you might be lumping all the latter into the former.
Well, there are enough to cause embarrassing protest/riots on American college campuses, and various places in Europe. Depends on your threshold for "many", but the number isn't negligible.
Enough to be embarrassing, sure.
Causing the protests on American campuses? That seems unsupported.
And calling the encampments riots is some authoritarian excuse-making holy shit.
Could as accurately call your commenting an embarrassing posting pattern/riot and thus law enforcement should treat you accordingly.
Yes, Sarcastr0, we're all aware that you're unwilling to acknowledge the occurrence of left-wing riots. You don't need to remind us.
You sure do love to conjure up wide swaths of violent libs, even if it requires jumping up incidents as though they were the main thing going on.
Which is, I say yet again, center mass what dictators do to people they don't like.
You should note when you sound like some Ayatollah justifying the latest crackdown and maybe slow your roll.
These insurrectionists sure do adopt an expansive definition of 'riot' when it suits them. Legitimate political discourse, right Brett?
Israel has engaged in the wholesale killing of journalists; hospital patients; plainly marked and disclosed aid workers; people in refugee camps; people who followed Israeli instructions to travel to “safe zones” identified by Israel; women and children; and anyone else who got in the way of Israel’s destruction of most of Gaza.
Israel also has engaged in terrorism, land theft, murder, bigotry, other brutality, and other crimes in the West Bank.
Israel’s government includes corrupt right-wingers, criminals, aggressive bigots, deranged theocrats, and war criminals.
The consequences of that conduct seem relatively predictable. I hope better Israelis get the hell out of there -- bound for America, ideally -- while they still can. The war criminals, religious kooks, indolent parasites, and right-wing dead-enders should stay and get what they deserve.
No it hasn’t.
Hamas operatives claiming to be journalists doesn’t make them so. Hamas fighters in a compound with weapons caches and leaders claiming to be civilians doesn’t make them so. Israeli soldiers shooting back when Hamas ambushes them in a refugee camp isn’t genocide.
Stalin calling Trotsky an enemy of the people and a capitalist plant to destroy Russia doesn’t make him so. And lately your line has been sounding very much like the sorts of line Stalinist shills took on Trotskyists. There was no evil they couldn’t be made to be responsible for.
Snowball!
" I do want to say that the destruction of Hamas is a completely legitimate war objective. "
How is that relevant to Israel's murders, theft of land, theocratic terrorism, and general right-wing assholery in the West Bank?
How does that justify the killing of journalists, the bombing of "safe zones" to which Israel directed civilians, the killing of disclosed and vividly identified aid workers, the bombing of refugee camps, etc.?
Apologists for Israel's war-criming right-wing belligerents are lousy people.
Just wait till this new global cold war turns hotter.
You're going to be amazed what your own government does---especially so that what your imperialist system deems to be 'theft of land' continues to be a system and dictates who owns what land and why.
By the by, how's rationalizing the mass importation of cult members who structure their lives around the musings of a warmongering illiterate pedophile going for you?
Do have even the slightest understanding of what's going to happen to journalists and civilians in the United States over the next little while? Do you have even an inklining of what's coming for you?
Your time is over, AIDS. Your empire is doomed, and your fellow/better Americans are not going to tolerate you any longer. There will be nowhere safe on this planet for you to flee.