The Volokh Conspiracy
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Rahimi, Meenie, Miney, Mo; After Only Two Years Bruen's Gotta Go!
In November, I wrote that the Fifth Circuit's Rahimi decision "was a faithful application of Bruen." Seven months later, now having read the Supreme Court's Rahimi decision, I stand by what I wrote. After Justice Thomas's dissent, the most intellectually honest opinion in Rahimi was Justice Jackson's concurrence. Jackson explained that "Today's effort to clear up 'misunderst[andings],' is a tacit admission that lower courts are struggling" with Bruen. The struggle is this: Justice Thomas meant what he wrote, but the other five members of the Rahimi majority did not. And they've now all run for the hills.
June 2022 was a strange time. The Court was on the verge of overruling Roe and the Lemon test. According to recent reporting by the New York Times, Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Kavanaugh did not sign onto Bruen until fairly late in the process, and only with a narrowing concurrence. And Justice Barrett was quite vocal about her own reservations. Had Bruen been decided in a different term without Dobbs and Kennedy, perhaps we would have gotten a different opinion. Had Chief Justice Roberts assigned the case to anyone but Justice Thomas, we would have never had Rahimi. The New York law would have been declared unconstitutional, but there would have been nothing about analogical reasoning. So many things had to go right--or wrong, depending on your vantage point--for June 2022 to happen the way it did. And so it did.
But only two years later, and the Court's originalists are fracturing. Vidal was the canary in the coal mine.
I still do not understand Justice Gorsuch's Rahimi concurrence. I think he would have been better off saying nothing than trying to explain his position. There is a small irony to Gorsuch's reliance on Salerno. That is the exact test that Judge Sutton used to avoid declaring the Affordable Care Act unconstitutional. More NFIB PTSD. Salerno may also make a cameo in the NetChoice case, with regard to facial challenges.
I'll give Justice Kavanaugh credit. He is really trying to make "tradition" a doctrine. He put a lot of work into that concurrence. It is long. Probably too long. And the string cites to everything Justice Scalia wrote comes off a tad desperate--look at me, I'm just like Justice Scalia! The genius of Scalia is that he didn't look like he was trying. Kavanaugh is trying way too hard. Still, having read all of Kavanaugh's concurrence, I'm not sure I learned anything new that wasn't already in some of the articles he cited. It was at most a synthesis. And Mike Rappaport has already started to point out Kavanaugh's mistakes.
Then there is Justice Barrett. She is such an effortless writer. In only a few pages, she conveys far more novel insights than can be found in Kavanaugh's treatise. Still, I worry about her. She talks the originalist talk, but she is hesitant to walk the originalist walk. The level of historical support she demands is probably more than can be established in most cases. And when lawyers don't meet her burden, she will revert to some sort of common law judging approach. By the way, my prediction for Barrett based on her Vidal concurrence was right on point. Justice Jackson kept citing Garcia, and I worry that Barrett, perhaps like Roberts, may have a Harry Blackmun moment soon enough.
I'll have much more to say about the case in some future writings. Don't worry. I haven't forgotten about the Chief Justice.
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Have you noticed that many of the self-described gun rights lawyers are saying that Rahimi was a minor tweak to Bruen?
No matter how much lipstick one puts on a pig, it is still a pig.
The strongest argument I have seen is that Rahimi did not dispute the allegations and consented to the order.
Which leads me to wonder how it got this far.
I like to call Thomas a "though the heavens should fall" originalist. He really does follow the reasoning where it leads, even if nobody follows him, even if he doesn't like the results.
The rest of them care, and I don't mean that in a good way. The let their feelings get in the way of following the legal logic, and their feelings don't LIKE the 2nd amendment, will tolerate upholding it only so far.
OTOH, they really can't bring themselves to admit that they're not following the legal logic, that they're replacing it with their own preferences. So the result was a huge mass of rationalizations.
I'm not terribly optimistic for the next gun ruling; They were only upholding the 2nd amendment because the logic required it, and this sort of failure gets easier with practice.
1. That sounds like an awful jurisprudential philosophy as you write it out. I'm not sure you realize it, but 'I just follow what I think and also ignore all consequences' is not noble it's hubristic.
2. Ignoring precedent isn't originalist. The Founders understood precedent. As Scalia said when noting Thomas' take on one of the fundamentals of judging: “I'm an originalist and a textualist, not a nut.” You embrace Thomas being a nut.
3. People disagree a lot more than they secretly agree but lie about it. Your ability to find secret bad faith everywhere someone disagrees with you remains second to none.
4. Thomas talks a big game on originalism, but have you checked whether he's actually originalist even under your own definition? He is a fake originalist.
A. His take on the unitary executive and qui tam suits. Not originalist. Qui Tam has been a thing since well before the Founding. Thomas ignores this. Scholarship has found that the unitary executive is not in keeping with how the Presidency worked in the Founding. Thomas ignores this.
Thomas takes Buckley v. Valeo as precedent, of course. Hasn't really done the originalist work there.
See also affirmative action - it is at least controversial to argue that originalism requires the 14A to be color blind. Thomas has never done that work.
My con law professor pointed out to me that standing is on shaky originalist ground.
5. An originalist under your definition [ignoring Baude's scholarship on what originalism actually is] should want a vastly less free US. From free speech to segregation to public defenders to incorporation to reverse incorporation to fundamental rights (marriage, procreation, parental rights, contraceptives, anal and oral sex) it's a very authoritarian vision for the US. Heavens shall fall indeed.
So your take on Thomas ignores actual jurisprudence and scholarship in favor of his rhetoric and your vibes. Sounds about like your speed when it comes to originalism.
1. What we've got here is the fundamental issue that drives the divide between living constitutionalism and originalism: Who is entitled to change constitutional meaning?
Originalists think the judge is not entitled to do that, that the judge's job is to enforce rules somebody else created.
2-4 Don't think we're going to agree.
5. Nope. This gets down to Thomas' hobby horse, substantive due process vs the Privileges and Immunities clause. It was the latter that was supposed to incorporate our rights, and wholesale, not picking and choosing as the Court did in practice.
And you're ignoring the rights that have fallen to living constitutionalism. The economic liberties, the attacks on the 2nd amendment and freedom of association.
Judging is a human endeavor; it is not something metaphysical. You treat is as some kind of platonic pursuit which strips it of it's humanity, and it's social utility.
You ignore all the examples I put forth of Thomas NOT being a [BrettLaw] originalist, and instead quietly following precedent when he likes it, or just making up an outcome he likes and doing no work.
But he aligns with you, so none of that. Gotta keep things simple.
The economic liberties, the attacks on the 2nd amendment and freedom of association.
Thing is, you blame this on a 'living constitutionalism' that 8 out of 9 Justices adhere to. Which makes it sound more like you not getting the outcomes you want and then, child-like, blaming a scapegoat for it.
1. What we’ve got here is the fundamental issue that drives the divide between living constitutionalism and originalism: Who is entitled to change constitutional meaning?
Originalists think the judge is not entitled to do that, that the judge’s job is to enforce rules somebody else created.
The constitution has no meaning until the courts give it one. That is the Judicial Power that Article III of the Constitution vests in the judiciary. And what the courts have given, the courts can take away.
"The constitution has no meaning until the courts give it one."
What an idiotic thing to say.
The members of the various state legislatures that ratified the Constitution would be surprised to learn that the thing they ratified "ha[d] no meaning."
In law, the meaning of any statute, constitution, order, etc only crystallises once it results in a court judgment. Until then, it's legislators doing drafting and/or citizens arguing about semantics.
Or, to put that another way, "it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."
The state legislatures that ratified the Constitution, being all used to a system where the judiciary pronounced on the meaning of both statute and common law going back to somewhere around the time of the Case of Proclamations, ratified a constitution that included an independent judiciary to do the same for Federal law. (As indeed they had done, in a more messy form, in art. IX of the Articles of Confederation.)
"meaning of both statute and common law"
The Constitution is neither.
No, because the Constitution didn't exist at the time I was referring to.
"“it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.”"
Is not at all the same thing as it being their province and duty to DECIDE what the law shall be. It's the province and duty of your accountant to add up the numbers, that doesn't mean they're entitled to discretion as to what they shall be.
I repeat, you're at war with the very purpose of language. The Constitution has meaning prior to and independent of what meaning the judiciary decide to attribute to it. If we as a society ever give up on believing that, we'll demand to elect judges.
Naw, Brett he's not at war with the very purpose of language; you just deny the inherent uncertainty in human communication, and the openness of our Constitutional framework.
You have no special expertise or authority.
The judiciary is an institution is recognized by the Constitution and it's personnel properly hired or confirmed by our political branches via procedures outlined in the Constitution. It has authority and expertise you do not.
Is it always right? It is not. But it sure is what to bet on in a contest between you and them. Or me and them.
The Court is not the way I'd want it right now. And I sure have some cases I think are awful.
I argue against them and do what I can with donations and whatnot to change the court accordingly. As is intended by the way the institution is set up.
I take my licks and cry about it. Also as intended.
What I don't do is put myself up against the judiciary and say 'those guys are all liars and secretly agree with me, because my correctness is undeniable.'
Because that's dumb.
For the record, state legislatures didn't ratify the constitution.
"The constitution has no meaning until the courts give it one. "
The Constitution is a written text, the very function of written text is to embody and transmit meaning. What you're saying amounts to rejecting the very function of language.
Originalists think the judge is not entitled to do that, that the judge’s job is to enforce rules somebody else created.
Originalists say that. But they don't think that. Nobody's calling to overturn Marbury v. Madison. The Major Questions Doctrine, standing rules, and all sorts of other things originalists come up with are judge-made and thwart rules that someone else created.
Originalists are judges who looked at America and liked the results that certain methodologies produced in certain cases, so they promoted them. Which is how all judicial philosophies work.
Which is how all judicial philosophies work.
Hence my observation that the real philosophy, from left to right, liberal or conservative, is consequentialism. AFAIC when Scalia or Thomas claim that they have to decide one way even though they wish it went the other, because it’s the law, that’s a ploy so that in other cases they can find the way they want to, defending their opinions by pointing to these instances as evidence of their integrity so how dare you impugn them,
"Everybody is doing the same as me, some people just lie about it." is a pretty common excuse for doing to wrong thing, across many domains.
Yes, but that isn't an argument against my observation or my point.
I can see how it would seem familiar to you.
But seriously, I think @SRG2 is putting the point too strongly. Consequences matter across the board, but not to the same extent for every judge/justice.
"ignoring Baude’s scholarship"
As one should.
14A sec 3 is self executing!
It is, unless the Supreme Court says it isn't. See how that works?
This article makes a similar analysis
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/06/02/supreme-court-justice-math-00152188
The case was close, and it boiled down to this question: are restraining orders that, after a hearing and a chance to respond, barred possession of weapons based on sufficient cause a close historical analogy of surety laws that required bonds of up to 200k (in current dollars) in order to bear arms in public?
Doesn't seem that far apart to me.
And if it is too far apart in your opinion, what would you think of a court order that required Rahimi to post a 200k bond in order to keep his weapons? Be cause that might be the next step, and it seems like a slippery slope to me, wouldn't be long before some jurisdictions wanted a 200k bond to buy a volunteer or get a carry license.
Seems very far apart to me, because, that was "up to", first, and because you could just leave your guns at home, second.
Here's what I'd find acceptable as an analog to surety bonds:
First, like a surety bond, it would not impact your ability to own guns, just to carry them outside your home.
Second, the order would be contingent on your being charged with a felony, and would end if at any point your were acquitted or the charges dropped.
Because, if you've got justification for imposing this restriction on somebody, why the hell are you not charging them with the crime you think they committed?
That's the glaring problem with the Rahimi case: If they really thought this guy had done all that, and they could prove it, he should have been charged with multiple felonies. If they didn't? Then they should have left him the hell alone.
The idea that you can decide that somebody is too dangerous to own guns, and then just tell them not to own guns, and leave it at that, is insane. It really is. It's fundamentally unserious. At BEST, it betrays an attitude that 2nd amendment rights aren't really rights, they're just privileges we humor people by calling rights, and so they can be lightly taken away.
He was charged with multiple felonies.
Most Americans are never going to agree with Mr. Bellmore in this regard.
I expect American law to evolve in congruence with the mainstream view rather than with gun nuts' preferences. The clingers may win one now and again, but over time the gun nuts seem doomed. The important practical question is how severe the backwash against gun nuttery will be. I hope a right to possess a reasonable firearm for self-defense in the home survives the understandable pushback against gun extremism.
"even if he doesn’t like the results"
Justice Thomas is sufficiently results-driven for you?
You, Blackman, and Thomas deserve one another.
Go ahead, complete the rhyme, Josh.
Juvenile, oblivious, tone-deaf. He likes Thomas but there are no black people in Josh’s actual life. Otherwise he would have picked another title for this post.
Give Josh a break here; He's young enough he's probably unfamiliar with the older versions of the rhyme. And the racist one was never the only version in use. Even when I was a kid in the 60's it was on it's way out, you mostly heard "tiger" in Michigan.
I also only heard it as “tiger”. But both you and I have been educated about the black experience. It’s odd that Josh is not.
I'm a 65 year old geezer who grew up literally within shouting distance of Detroit. Literally; The Detroit riots stopped close enough to our house to hear the shouting. So, naturally I know what you mean, even though the racist version of that chant wasn't all THAT common even in the 60's in Michigan.
Josh? You've seen his pictures. He's not even old enough yet to realize he should get a proper haircut. You expect him to immediately think of the racist version of a children's rhyme, that was last common in the 60's, and wasn't universally racist even then?
Sometimes bad things go away and are forgotten, you've got to accept that.
Anyone who has read history, even a 20-year-old, knows about the rhyme.
Anyone who has seen the phrase used -- knows about the rhyme. It is incredibly bad manners to say it, even to begin with, even using "tiger", around black people. Josh though lives in an all-white world.
You are not serious if this is what you care about.
Are you saying a black person is not being serious if he cares about it?
So now you’re black?
And no, a black person is not serious if this is what he/she cares about.
He f**ked a few I guess. Maybe it rubbed off?
Thanks for censoring fucked and keeping things family friendly!
"a black person is not serious if this is what he/she cares about"
If you are going to claim that Blacks are too touchy about racial slurs, this blog -- where the management is so touchy it bans and censors people for using terms such as "sl_ck-j_wed," "pu_sy," and "c_p succ_r" to describe conservatives -- is the perfect place for it!
Carry on, clingers.
So far as your betters permit.
If you did a poll among blacks and you asked "Can a Blackman say 'n-------r?", a solid majority would say yes.
So Josh is in the clear.
Hip hop is the most popular music among blacks and it uses the word "nigga", liberally, and I wouldn't even attempt a word count in a Samuel Jackson movie.
Josh is in the clear among his fellow right-wing anti-social justice warriors at the Volokh Conspiracy. Always was. Always will be.
America's vestigial bigots will always have a home at this white, male, conservative blog.
Until replacement.
About the non-racist version? Generally yes. (I say "generally" because in some cases there could be some indication that it was a deliberate allusion to the racist version.)
Such as a blog with a years-long record of frequent publication of racial slurs and of providing an endless, everyday stream of multifaceted bigotry?
Well a court ruled in a case about a Southwest stewardess saying "Eeenie Meanie, everybody pick a seat we've got to go", that it was not racist to use that phrase.
So I think as a matter of law Josh is in the clear.
I don't think micro-agressions are one of Thomas' pet peeves so Josh is probably clear there too.
There was no doubt an allusion to a vile racial slur would be no problem at the Volokh Conspiracy, where racial slurs are common and the bigoted tone was set at the top.
False. I read a ton of history, and I never knew about that¹ until it was the subject of a lawsuit about twenty years ago. (Sawyer v. Southwest Airlines Co., 243 F. Supp. 2d 1257 (D. Kan. 2003))
¹Assuming that by "knows about the rhyme" you mean "knows about the historical racist version of the rhyme."
I didn't learn the racist pedigree of that one from history books. I learned about it in school cafeterias, on playgrounds, on street corners, and the like. Vividly. Repeatedly. For many years.
Some people apparently had different experiences. Or, at least, claim that they did.
"Some people apparently had different experiences. Or, at least, claim that they did."
Oh sure, in a country which stretches from the tropics to the arctic and the Atlantic Ocean to the middle of the Pacific Ocean
of 330 million people (at least 20 million here illegally from other
countries) you doubt different experiences?
Apparently you were raised by disreputable people that hung out with racists. That might explain a lot about you. My parents were obviously significantly more progressive, and chose not to live in an environment like that.
"Juvenile, oblivious, tone-deaf."
Maybe. I figured he knew precisely what he was doing -- poking at every "woke" person who doesn't like racial slurs -- and relied on plausible deniability, much like former professor Volokh has done repeatedly.
Guys like Bellmore who claim this is part of the distant past are also a knowing part of the problem.
No conservative at this blog has earned any benefit of the doubt in this context. Not nearly. These right-wingers flaunt their flouting of modernity, decency, progress, and inclusiveness.
What? Sounds like a typical democrat reply. Get out of here.
"Still, I worry about her (Justice Barrett). She talks the originalist talk, but she is hesitant to walk the originalist walk."
Hesitant you say?
I'd say she trying to redefine originalism.
"Besides, imposing a test that demands overly specific analogues has serious problems. To name two: It forces 21st-century regulations to follow late-18th-century policy choices, giving us
'a law trapped in amber.' Ante, at 7. And it assumes that
founding-era legislatures maximally exercised their power
to regulate, thereby adopting a 'use it or lose it view of legislative authority. Such assumptions are flawed, and originalism does not require them."
And of course any discussion about originalism requires us to be precise.
Which Originalism are we talking about?
Actual Originalism
Framework Originalism
Intrinsicist Originalism
Instrumental Originalism
Liquidated Originalism
Original Intent
Original Meaning
Original Methods Originalism
Original Public Meaning
Semantic Originalism
Structuralism
Textualism
“Halfway Originalism”
It's a fair cop, to some degree: A great deal of the history of originalism, especially recently, has been originalists losing their nerve in the face of entrenched precedent contrary to originalism, and inventing excuses for legitimizing exceptions. That's what liquidated originalism is ALL about. And Balkin's living originalism is just flat out an effort to subvert the term and claim it for its enemies.
But only somewhat fair; Outside of pathological situations, most approaches to originalism should converge. Authors take their original intent, and write the text to embody it, which is then read by others who understand the meaning embodied in the text, so that original intent, textualism, and original public meaning are supposed to be the same.
" . . . which is then read by others who understand the meaning embodied in the text . . . . "
So . . . current people, lawyers, judges, etc., should have a good, i.e., thorough, historical understanding of the original intent, right?
Hmmm.....
"In addition to its adherence to this problematic historical analysis, the majority was also quick to note the narrowness of its holding in Rahimi. Roberts concluded, 'In Heller, McDonald, and Bruen, this Court did not ‘undertake an exhaustive historical analysis … of the full scope of the Second Amendment’' (citing Bruen). Nor do we do so today."
So on who's "authority" should we take on legal history?
It's been mentioned here on the VC that the legal profession doesn't have a good track record as historians.
"So . . . current people, lawyers, judges, etc., should have a good, i.e., thorough, historical understanding of the original intent, right?"
Assuming they actually care about the original intent, and haven't been trained to take a Humpty Dumpty approach to language, sure.
THAT'S your standard?!?
They just have to be slightly better than Humpty Dumpty?!?!?!?!
I guess that is the mouthbreather level so . . . we'll accept anything above mouthbreather status.
(I kinda was hoping our Supreme Court would be better.)
My standard is that it should be POSSIBLE to get such an understanding. Not that everybody has to do it personally; Professionals exist for a reason.
Brett Bellmore 1 hour ago
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It’s a fair cop, to some degree: A great deal of the history of originalism, especially recently, has been originalists losing their nerve in the face of entrenched precedent contrary to originalism.
concur
Entrenched precedent contrary to originalism is how we got:
Kelo
gamble
My precedents: Constitutional, sacred, foundations of our liberty.
Your precedents: Cowardly, entrenched, tyrannical
"A great deal of the history of originalism"
The history of originalism? Originalism is a few months older than Kim Kardashian.
And less popular, persuasive, important, and interesting than Kim Kardashian. If conservatives are lucky, originalism may have roughly the same lifespan as Kim Kardashian, too.
Whatever 'originalism' this particular flavor from Bruen is, the 5th circuit is interpreting it akin to our god-awful qualified immunity where without some damn on-point case 200 years ago, no gun law of any kind can survive attack
A huge variety of gun laws can survive attack. Gun laws saying you can't murder with a gun, gun laws saying you can't assault with a gun, gun laws saying you can't rob with a gun... Yeah, even gun laws saying you can't randomly shoot into the air, or litter the environment with bits of lead that will get into the ecosystem.
The problem here is people wanting "gun laws" that outlaw gun related behavior which is not itself harmful. And, yeah, those sorts of laws shouldn't survive attack, because they're deliberate infringements of a civil right.
It's like saying that without some damn on point case 200 years ago no speech law of any kind can survive, when the problem is that you want to ban use of specific words, rather than just fraud and libel. The problem isn't the 1st amendment, it's that you're an aspiring censor.
For instance, the late bump stock ban. You had an estimated half million bump stocks sold, and how many got used in crimes? One? Two?
And you think THAT is enough justification to override "shall not be infringed"?
Do you have any textual support for these laws not infringing the 2A?
You have a very broad reading of infringed, IIRC.
You're talking about laws against the misuse of firearms. We're talking about laws against possession and presence of firearms
Well you can't do that hobie, I'm hoping you can come to terms with it.
EXACTLY.
If it's a civil right, you can have laws against misusing it. You can't have laws against just exercising the right.
Tactical nuclear weapons for everyone! Including in divorce court, at dollar pitcher night, at PTA meetings, at movie theaters, and in police stations!
These gun nuts deserve everything that is coming to them. And probably more.
" It forces 21st-century regulations to follow late-18th-century policy choices, giving us ‘a law trapped in amber.’"
The term is "fixity", it's the central feature of originalism. The law IS supposed to be trapped in amber, until an institution with the proper authority formally cuts it free. For statutes that's the legislature, for constitutions, it requires amendment. If she's got trouble with THAT, she's rejecting originalism itself.
"And it assumes that founding-era legislatures maximally exercised their power to regulate,"
We're dealing here with a constitutional prohibition against doing something, and worded quite absolutely. You don't "infringe" when you utterly extinguish it, you infringe it with the very first restriction.
Historical practice is supposed to identify exceptions to that absolutist constitutional language. And she wants to invent new exceptions to the right, that have no historical basis?
Bottom line? She purports to be lecturing us about what originalism requires, but the truth is that she's rejecting originalism, and just doesn't want to admit it.
Brett's originalism is more aesthetic than actual.
Fixity is not a central feature of originalism. He's ignoring a ton of originalists to say that.
A moment's consideration to what this would require shows that it's also not something anyone on the Court actually follows versus name checks (allowing all the ambiguity apedad notes).
At it's start originalism was a rhetorical project not an academic one; to give political cover to Justices overturning popular Warren Court precedents. It's gotten some meat on it's bones since then, But Brett ignores everything after the original rhetorical push.
See also registration. Brett thinks it's unconstitutional despite it not infringing keeping or bearing. Because vibes.
No, fixity is THE central feature of originalism: The meaning is fixed at the origin, and can only change formally. Everything else is details of how you figure out what got fixed. Fixity is the foundation stone.
Baude would disagree. And he does a very good job of establishing that those with legal training at the Founding would also disagree.
So would Scalia.
I’m sure there are those who disagree with Baude and have written about it. But you’re not even engaging in the debate. You are just stamping your foot and saying you have an inside track to what originalism is.
You do not. Your take is not special; you rarely seem to want to put your opinions into the arena with supporting arguments and sources, versus ipse dixit and finding all who disagree to have a bad faith agenda.
Bellmore — Originalist interpretations can be no more fixed than continuously amended insights into the contexts of creation of the various historical survivals which comprise the starting points to infer a historical record. Even that sentence, offered to present an over-simplified description of the process of historical inference, sets forth no fewer than 4 axes subject to continuous change:
1 Amended insights;
2. Contexts of creation;
3. Discovery, availability, evaluation, or disqualification of putative historical survivals;
4. Outcomes of inferences based on a process to make the survivals critique each other.
To those 4 must be added one more especially imposing 5th axis which remains always a factor—the extent to which present-minded analysis has unconsciously inflected historical inference by contaminating it with spurious influences. Those arise constantly from unreckoned occurrences which post-dated the era under study. Of course no occurrence which post-dates the era under study can have had any influence on that era at all. Alas that does not mean that such occurrences cannot have decisive power to inflect present-minded speculations about the past. And that happens all the time.
Bellmore—like almost everyone untrained in academic methods of historical research—knows little or nothing about 1–4 above, and remains absolutely unaware of 5, to which he is in thrall for his entire reliance and sense of insight into what he supposes to be originalist methods.
Historical analysis is not even slightly similar to the process to read history and be edified by it. Bellmore—and almost all would-be originalist lawyers and judges—begin with the notion that they have read history, and have been edified by it. They proceed from that to suppose it bestows qualification to perform historical analysis—reach consequential conclusions—and apply them to determine present legal outcomes.
With that delusive framework as its basis, it is dismaying that anyone takes seriously the notion of a fixed orginalism, useful as a touchstone and constraint on legal reasoning. All it actually shows is that originalist legal advocates don’t know what they are talking about.
The meaning is fixed at the origin,
Which is impossible. Hence originalism is junk - an excuse for cherry-picking history "to find your friends" as someone said.
Besides, what meaning? The meaning of the enunciated principle, or the way it was applied 200 years ago, as though we are trapped in the same amber Blackman talks about.
This is neither good jurisprudence nor good originalism nor even good English. The 2A, like the 1A, does not grant a right; rather, it supposes a preexisting right. That preexisting right had preexisting boundaries. It was not, as you pretend, “absolute”; it was not “do whatever you want.” Unless laws encroach on those boundaries, they do not “infringe” on the right at all.
Was “_____” considered within those boundaries in 1789 cannot be determined simply by looking at what laws existed in 1789. Just because a legislature hadn’t outlawed “______” doesn’t mean that people considered “______” to be a right.
(To be clear, that's certainly relevant evidence. But it does not automatically answer the question as you mistakenly think.)
"And it assumes that
founding-era legislatures maximally exercised their power
to regulate, thereby adopting a ‘use it or lose it view of legislative authority. Such assumptions are flawed, and originalism does not require them."
Boy, are the clingers going to hate this one.
As I've said before, originalism is Ouija-board jurisprudence.
It is not. Stop pretending the original public meaning originalism claims to answer all inquiries. It does not. Scalia wrote extensively about its limits.
Ok, let me rephrase. In practice, originalism is Ouija-board jurisprudence.
Originalism (as practiced by conservatives) will survive if right-wingers win the culture war.
Otherwise, originalists will sustain the same fate as gun nuts, anti-abortion absolutists, advocates for limitless special privilege for religion, supporters of Israel's right-wing belligerence, and everyone else who hitched a political wagon to the Republican-conservative-Federalist-Heritage cause.
“The level of historical support she demands is probably more than can be established in most cases.”
It’s funny to me how you breeze past this interesting insight. It also got me thinking about how you dug up a single op-Ed from a Kentucky party newspaper from the 1870’s to support your “POTUS is not an officer” obsession, even going so far as to write a piece suggesting that it was dispositive! Is that the appropriate level of historical support— in your mind? Law office history at its finest!
Has anyone actually talked to people who study the founding for a living? I hate to sound like Lathrop here but you know— there are those kinds of people out there…
In fact, here’s one such person, he wrote a book called “Original Meanings: Politics and Ideas in the Making of the Constitution.” He actually won a Pulitzer Prize for his efforts, although I guess that means little to the folks around here.
“The debates in 1787-89 were always (ALWAYS) about the militia and never about a personal (we could say common law) right of self-defense. Madison, the main author, would be stupefied by this whole line of crazy cases.”
He was the lead author of the historians’ amicus brief in Heller. I suspect that is “beyond the level of historical support” that Josh is referring to?
The debates being “always about the militia” miscasts why that would be the case. Because the Founders (other than Washington) were obsessed philosophically with the militia as a counterbalance to the threat of standing armies.
That debate assumed the populace continually armed, as you never knew when the militia might be needed. It also assumed the militia preexisted the state and was not the creation of any government. Which is why the state cannot regulate the militia out of existence by disarming the populace.
The Founders would have been stupefied at the idea that any government could disarm the populace. Or any “historian” who suggests that.
“The populace”
Don’t you mean “certain white males”?
No.
“each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States” — federal Militia Act of 1792
Not sure how you got “certain”. It’s quaint that you think women couldn’t also be armed. Militia service obligation was restricted to men, because only men did the fighting. Since the 2A (preexisting) right is also about self-defense, of course it includes women.
Women were citizens, yet did not have the right to vote. Free blacks being armed was complicated. And was more complicated after Dred Scott. But that group falls into the category of those restricted for reasons.
“The people” has particular constitutional meaning, also being used in the 4th amendment.
“Free blacks being armed was complicated. And was more complicated after Dred Scott. But that group falls into the category of those restricted for reasons.”
What category do you think immigrants from Afghanistan would have fallen into?
'What category do you think immigrants from Afghanistan would have fallen into?'
Bernstein says White.
" Free blacks being armed was complicated. "
Only for bigoted assholes, whether centuries ago or today.
There are no nuts quite like the gun nut. Other than the religious kook.
https://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/07-290_amicus_historians.pdf
Have you read through this? Just curious
Why would I? You think lawyers can't do history, even though that's what precedents are. Why would I believe a group of so-called "experts" who work backwards from a premise to justify their position? It was no more convincing when Stevens tried to cite such sources.
It just an appeal to authority anyway.
Here's a bunch of historians nobody has heard of, you must follow what they say.
The guy wrote his book in 1997 (and won a Pulitzer for it) so your accusations of motivated reasoning, at least as far as Heller and it’s progeny go— ring hollow to me.
That you would reject, out of hand, even contemplating what people who study this period for a living have to say about these issues is sort of stunning.
MaddogEngineer — Estrogen pointed you to an excellent history, written by one of the nation's best scholars. You should read it.
Why should you read it? Suppose I asked you how you know any of the following (quotes from you):
1. That debate assumed the populace continually armed . . .
2. It also assumed the militia preexisted the state and was not the creation of any government . . .
3. The Founders would have been stupefied at the idea that any government could disarm the populace.
You would not be able to answer. To read Historian Jack N. Rakove's work cited above would put you in a better position to answer intelligently.
"earned Ph.D. degrees in history, hold academic appointments in
university departments of history,"
In other words, morons.
Stunning observation. Truly a meaningful and thought provoking contribution. Bumble-level insight.
I will note here Umberto Eco talked about the rejection of scientific and historical expertise and leave it at that.
Everything is fascism!
That, was not the title of Eco’s essay, which is pretty narrow in what it calls fascism. It's still a bit vibes-based for my taste and I don't use it myself to call people fascist. But what you expect from a semiotician? It still lays out very well some unthinking stances you will find in many places, including here.
Here’s some more depth for ya:
Rejection of analytical criticism — “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.”
I see this shoe fitting you like a glove, Bob.
” was not the title of Eco’s essay,”
Yes, know. Laundry list of things which apply to both fascists and non-fascists. Useless but beloved by leftists.
"disagreement is treason"
Currently there is an effort by some leftists to cast AOC out of the movement because she criticized the protest at the Nova exhibit. disagreement is treason is a leftist concept, if anything.
“Laundry list of things which apply to both fascists and non-fascists.”
And you, Bob. Don’t forget yourself.
I am a category of my own! Swell.
Bigoted, superstitious hayseeds tend not to like educated, credentialed, reasoning, accomplished, modern people.
Fuck you, Bob.
Yeah. You know better that people who spend years, careers, studying these matters.
But you know better. Sure you do. You're nothing but an arrogant fucking know-it-all who thinks studying a subject is silly, because your "common sense" explains it all.
Kiss my ass.
Just read that book, commend it to all!
I basically share the concerns of the Court’s current centrists. As a textualist/originalist matter, there is an individual right to keep and bear arms. Everytime the Constitution refers to “the people,” it always refers to individual rights (although possessed only by citizens and possibly permanent legal residents rather than all “persons”). The Second Amendment is no exception.
Nonetheless, that doesn’t mean that the Court has to give 2nd Amendment absolutists everything they want. It’s part of our constitution, yes, but it doesn’t have to be made into the subject of a religious cult. I’ve taken the view that states can use the “well regulated militia” statement as a means, through the mechanism of declaring all adults lawfully possessing firearms to be members of the militia and subjecting them to militia regulations, to institute a number of regulations on firearms, as long as they are reasonably connected to actual militia regualation and don’t take away the individual right. (I don’t particularly like the “undue burden” standard, but am not sure what the appropriate standard should be.) I think it could require everyone for example to attend a day or a weekend a year or something to make firearms ownership cost something and make sure people get continued basic safety and etiquette training and such.
I think this case shows the difficulties of Thomas’ approach. The common law permitted beating ones wife. It was largely legal at the time. At the time of the original constitution, it was considered one of the glories of a good and just society for women to be subject to discipline. By the time of the 14th Amendment, the rule was still there, but tended to be justified more on grounds of marital privacy and state non-interference in intimate family affairs.
So Justice Thomas is right that his theory would strike this law down. But I suspect that even a woman as deeply conservative as Justice Barrett would not to enshrine a right for husbands to beat their wives into the Constitution just because so it was done in 1789 (or 1868).
The Second Amendment is no exception.
If the Second Amendment were an exception, what evidence would you have to the contrary? Other than Scalia's tendentious mumbling in Heller, what evidence do you have to the contrary? Ipse dixit, right? But from Scalia.
"But I suspect that even a woman as deeply conservative as Justice Barrett would not to enshrine a right for husbands to beat their wives into the Constitution just because so it was done in 1789 (or 1868)."
I am not familiar with the handmaiden playbook, so I would not know.
"I’ve taken the view that states can use the “well regulated militia” statement as a means, through the mechanism of declaring all adults lawfully possessing firearms to be members of the militia and subjecting them to militia regulations, to institute a number of regulations on firearms, as long as they are reasonably connected to actual militia regualation and don’t take away the individual right."
Congress could do that, its in Article 1 explicitly.
But there is one problem, it can't be limited to just gun owners, it would have to be all men or adults 18-45 (or 65), and those that don't already have guns would be required to acquire guns suitable for the militia.
By just targeting gun owners you are infringing on the right to keep and bear arms and violation due process and equal protection. It would be the same as only drafting democrats.
And the militia was historically defined as all able bodied men, and did require obtaining a gun.
Its all of us or none of us Reader.
Not at all. Does using voter registration list for jury selection “target” voters or “infringe on” the right to vote by making voting more budensome? No. Its understood that citizenship is a two-way street, and with rights come duties.
Not only is this no different, the 2nd Amendment explicitly connects the two, while there’s no explicit textual connection between jury duty and voter registration.
Want to possess a firearm? Then you have to serve in the militia and abide by militia regulations.
I think, in all candor, that it’s a stretch to say that making involving oneself in firearms and the militias that come with them voluntary rather than mandatory somehow infringes on the rights of psople who don’t want to participate. The 2nd Amendment itself connects firearms possession with militias. If you think it’s too onerous an imposition, try to get the 2nd Amendment amended to take the militia part out. Good luck! And good luck risking that once people get their hands on the 2nd Amednment to change it, you may succeed so well, the keep and bear arms part might get taken out too.
Clarifying that militia service can’t be more onerous than other duties, like jury duty, fire duty, and other requirements that free societies traditionally imposed on their citizens and our society could still choose to do (still does for jury service)if it wants to. It can’t be so onerous as to be a stealth way to make firearms ownership impractical.
A state probably COULD make militia duty (and firearm possession) mandatory if it wanted to, perhaps subject to religious exemptions and the like. But it could also connect the two while making the bundle voluntary.
“If you think it’s too onerous an imposition, try to get the 2nd Amendment amended to take the militia part out.”
Just what work do you think the militia preface in the 2nd Amendment is doing that Article 1 doesn’t already give Congress and the states explicitly?
"Clause 15. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.
Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.”
Your interpretation of the second amendment is duplicative of Article 1, which is why it is completely implausible.
But in any case the power to draft all able bodied adults set minimum standards for what kind of arms they need to supply is already there. And if you want to only train and drill a subset, do it by drawing lots like the jury service or the draft.
What isn't there is authority to punish gun owners by imposing obligations on them alone.
And while we’re at it, I continue to think that Congress’ Interstate Commerce power does not extend to permit it to regulate the USE of things just because they previously passed through interstate commerce. And I agree with Morrison that it does not permit it to regulate domestic violence directly.
So while I disagree with Thomas on the 2nd Amendment issue, I agree with his Commerce Clause views enough to agree that Congress ought not to have Commerce Clause power to enact this law. A state certainly could e.g. as part of the regulation of its militia.
Could you relate this to your knowledge of the existence of platypuses? Maybe add Youtube footage of an old Nintendo game somewhere.
I really don’t understand the branch of right wing legal purists (represented I guess by Blackman here) who are so quick to say that a conservative precedent (Bruen) has been quickly and unceremoniously overturned. It’s almost like they’re in the click-bait outrage business.
As much as the absolute gun rights people want to pretend otherwise, both Scalia and Thomas’ prior opinion acknowledged that the right was not absolute and that some people judged dangerous can have their rights restricted. This was a bad case, with a bad defendant, who had essentially waived his legal rights, yet the ultra-originalists are pretending this overturns everything about Bruen. It doesn’t. It does what Heller and Bruen said could happen: scope out the limits.
I know, I know, Thomas, the author of Bruen, dissented here–so the sky is falling. But that’s only because he sees the judicial landscape different that this (like abortion cases in the old days), that it should immediately be decided as a facial challenge. Maybe if the defendant weren’t a bad dude and hadn’t waived some of those arguments. I shouldn’t have to say that bad cases make bad law. It doesn’t mean the right to keep and bear arms has been drastically rolled back.
I suspect we’ll get another corrective down the road (assuming the Court isn’t packed) when someone actually has their rights unfairly restricted by a bogus one-sided domestic restraining order where he doesn’t have the due process opportunity to challenge. Gun rights people will be outraged that such a person has to suffer depravation of his rights before vindication (what I assume is animating Blackman and others here). I’m not going to loose sleep over that.
I’m also not going to participate in Blackman’s purity charade, because he personally dislikes the jurisprudence of justices who are nominally on his side, but he makes it sound like junior high school. It's petty and childish. Barrett is not going to turn into Harry Blackmun. That's just a dumb thing to say.
It’s interesting nobody on the left is complaining that the liberal justices keep saying, rather explicitly, that Heller and Bruen are wrong and should be overturned. Respect for norms and all that. But my goodness, multiple justices secretly want to overturn Obergefell which would be an assault on our constitutional order, the Court’s legitimacy, or something.
Are the liberal Justices saying Heller should be overturned? Bruen is a mess, but dunno if I see a large cohort of anti-Heller folks.
But I did appreciate your thoughtful comment.
Purity policing and full-loaf-or-the-republic-is-over is tiresome and in good bipartisan supply.
"As much as the absolute gun rights people want to pretend otherwise, both Scalia and Thomas’ prior opinion acknowledged that the right was not absolute and that some people judged dangerous can have their rights restricted."
We don't dispute that. This is about HOW people judged dangerous have their rights restricted: After being convicted of a felony!
We have a long record of judicial 'findings' partially restricting a civil liberty. An injunction against saying this, an injunction against going there. We DON'T have a long record of judicial 'findings' resulting in a civil liberty being entirely extinguished, even for a short time.
We have a very long record of people having their rights severely curtailed, and their right to bear armed temporarily but completely extinguished, purely based on a judge’s finding that there’s probable cause they committed a crime. Indeed, they can be so limited or extinguished based purely on a police officer’s (or, as a constitutional matter, a private citizen’s!) belief that there’s probable cause that they committed a crime!
> We DON’T have a long record of judicial ‘findings’ resulting in a civil liberty being entirely extinguished, even for a short time.
Bail is set at $10,000. The accused may not exercise his constitutional freedom of movement to travel beyond the jurisdiction of this court. In order to aid in the extinguishment of that right, the accused will also lose his 4th amendment right to not have an ankle monitor installed on his person for the duration of these proceedings.
"Seven months later, now having read the Supreme Court's Rahimi decision, I stand by what I wrote. After Justice Thomas's dissent, the most intellectually honest opinion in Rahimi was Justice Jackson's concurrence. Jackson explained that "Today's effort to clear up 'misunderst[andings],' is a tacit admission that lower courts are struggling" with Rahimi. The struggle is this: Justice Thomas meant what he wrote, but the other five members of the Rahimi majority did not. And they've now all run for the hills."
I think you mean that lower courts are struggling with Bruen and the other members of the Bruen majority didn't mean what they wrote. Or at least that's the only way that makes sense to me. I don't see how Jackson could've meant the courts are struggling with Rahimi when the decision wasn't issued yet.
Yes. Lower courts are struggling with Bruen, trying to find ways not to enforce it. The gun rights people are legitimately annoyed by SCOTUS not stepping in to correct them. Roberts has given them what they’ve been asking for here.
Which is why Blackman’s whining here is especially ridiculous. I read the chief’s opinion as directly addressing that, and laying down a marker that the lower courts better get with the program, Bruen is not going anywhere. Roberts haters will likely scoff at that as an idle threat. Blackman is so invested in his imagined chief being feckless and unprincipled, he has to create Real Justices of the Supreme Court drama by declaring Bruen overruled.
I saw the chief taking this opinion as saying time’s up, stop screwing around. A more effective message than letting Thomas build on his prior work in Bruen, even if they had agreed on the outcome.
In reality, Rahimi won 1-8, with a masterful opinion by Thomas, and only 8 other justices dissenting.
Very, very well-played
"Bruen is not going anywhere."
An enlarged Supreme Court -- one that resembles modern America more than a 1800s Know Nothings gathering or a 1950s John Birch meeting -- might not accept that point.
Don't give up the dream!
You figure better Americans -- the American mainstream -- will accept an ossified, unrepresentative Supreme Court?
Rather than employ traditional, lawful measures to improve the Court? Measures to be implemented in scrupulous compliance with established law and in congruence with repeated precedent?
Good luck with that, clingers.
I hope you are right, Rahimi was a sop to signal not all the limits are gone, especially limits on dangerous behavior by individuals. Hasn’t that always been the gun rights viewpoint: “don’t restrict my rights for something I didn’t do, punish the guy who did it”?
But I hope now the hammer comes down on the clear violations of Bruen in magazine limits that outlaw the 100’s of millions of magazines that are in common use, and assault weapons bans which outlaw the guns, not only in common use, but most suitable to the militia.
And of course the next shoe to be dropped is gun owners right to travel, my right to bear arms doesn’t stop at the state line. Full faith and credit to CCW.
" Hasn’t that always been the gun rights viewpoint: “don’t restrict my rights for something I didn’t do, punish the guy who did it”?"
Well, after convicting him in a felony trial, anyway. Not just on the basis of some guy in a black or white robe saying so.
No plea bargaining either, I guess.
You're putting a lot of weight on a jury vs. judge that you have zero text or even practice to point to.
You don't think surety laws were a restriction on gun rights?
Posting a small fortune to be able to bear arms, definitely was a restriction on the RKBA, imposed by a judge not a jury.
I do.
We can argue, as the court did, about how close an analog it was to a restraining order, but I think it's in the ballpark.
As usual, conservative justices always get weak on the court and fail at following our principles, will liberal justices always get stronger and consistently follow their principles.
Thomas has his faults, but he is great. Alito and Gorsuch are pretty good too. But Barrett and Kav are such disappointments.