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Second Amendment Roundup: Just in Time for the Supreme Court to Consider in Rahimi
The Ninth Circuit invalidates the felon gun ban for non-violent offenses with no Founding-era analogues.
The Ninth Circuit, in U.S. v. Duarte, has joined the Third Circuit's Range decision in holding the Gun Control Act's ban on firearm possession by felons (18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1)) in violation of the Second Amendment as applied to convictions for non-violent offenses that have no Founding-era analogues. Prof. Volokh summarized the decision when it was released on May 9. The court's opinion is extraordinarily thorough and deserves a deeper dive.
The opinion was written by Senior Judge Carlos Bea and joined by Judge Lawrence VanDyke. Judge Milan D. Smith, Jr., dissented and expressed hope for an en banc rehearing, which is all but automatic when a Ninth Circuit panel renders a decision favorable to the Second Amendment. The decision will undoubtedly be considered by the Supreme Court Justices in deciding Rahimi, which involves the ban on gun possession by a person subject to a domestic violence restraining order, and in disposing of Range, another felon case which may be taken up by the Court or remanded for reconsideration in light of Rahimi.
At the textual level, Durate states, the right to bear arms is guaranteed to "the people," which per Bruen refers to "all Americans," not an "unspecified subset." While Heller stated that the Amendment protects "the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms" for self-defense, the universe of "the people" is larger. (I suggest thinking of the two-circle Venn diagram – law-abiding citizens are the subset and they are within the larger superset of "the people.")
While Heller referred to "longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons" as among the "presumptively lawful regulatory measures," Bruen expressly requires courts to assess whether a restriction "is consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." The felon ban was not an issue in Heller, and "the Court has yet to explore this country's history of banning felons from possessing firearms."
That's where the Duarte panel hits a home run, noting the need for "distinctly similar" historical regulations given that violence with firearms is a "problem that has persisted [in this country] since the 18th century." The government sought historical regulations from three sources: proposals in three of the state ratifying conventions, laws disarming classes of persons, and the historical practice of executing felons.
First, like some other courts, Duarte notes that proposals related to disarming criminals in three state ratifying conventions failed to pass. But read carefully, they "allude to a possible tradition of disarming a narrow segment of the populace who posed a risk of harm because their conduct was either violent or threatened future violence." The New Hampshire proposal would have allowed disarming those who "are or have been in actual rebellion," a crime that denoted violence. Samuel Adams' proposal in the Massachusetts convention would have protected the arms right for "peaceable" citizens, but in the common-law context that meant disarming those who bore arms in a manner "to terrorize the people." The draft of the Pennsylvania minority to disarm persons "for crimes committed, or [for] real danger of public injury" is best understood as referring to a narrower "subset of crimes [that] suggest[ed] a proclivity for violence."
Second, as elsewhere, the government lined up the usual suspects of purported historical analogues – the disarming of British Loyalists, Catholics, Indians, and slaves. But those laws fail both the "why" and the "how" of Bruen's analogical test.
The British Loyalist "swore himself out of 'the people' by refusing his oath of allegiance," but his arms could be restored if he was no longer "disaffected." The government cited only three colonial laws disarming Catholics, and those laws reflected the perception that Catholics "acknowledge[ed] a foreign power, superior to the sovereignty of the kingdom." Laws prohibited selling arms to Indians, but did not ban gun possession by Indians, who were members of another political community "with whom the colonies were frequently at war." As to laws disarming slaves and free blacks (an "analogue" the government embarrassingly dropped in Rahimi), they "fell outside 'the people' entitled to Second Amendment protection."
In short, the reasoning for disarming these classes "does not carry over to the nonviolent offender who served his prison term," and the "how" and "why" for such laws are not "distinctly similar" to § 922(g)(1) "to justify its blanket ban on non-violent felons possessing firearms."
Third, the government argued that the Founding generation understood felons to have no right to possess firearms because they faced death and total estate forfeiture for their crimes. But as Founder James Wilson wrote in his Lectures on the Law (1791), even in England "few felonies, indeed, were punished with death." Moreover, the concept of a "felony" today has skyrocketed beyond recognition. As the Supreme Court wrote in Lange v. California (2021), which held that the flight of a suspected misdemeanant does not always justify a warrantless entry into a home: "Even as the newly formed states filled the pages of their penal codes with new felonies each passing year, '[t]he felony category' at the Founding still remained 'a good deal narrower [then] than now.'" Similarly, an officer cannot shoot a fleeing felon, the Court said in Tennessee v. Garner (1985), because "[m]any crimes classified as misdemeanors, or nonexistent, at common law are . . . felonies" today.
That said, the Duarte court continues, "it may well be that 'the 18th- and 19th-century' laws traditionally punishing certain felonies with death, estate forfeiture, or a life sentence are the closest things to 'longstanding' felon firearm bans that Heller had in mind." Moreover, some new crimes are sufficiently "relevantly similar" to Founding-era crimes to be consistent with the Second Amendment: "Like burglary or robbery, [modern-day] drug trafficking plainly poses substantial risks of confrontation that can lead to immediate violence."
However, no historical basis exists to disarm a person permanently merely for conviction of "a[ny] crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year," based solely on that label. Steven Duarte was convicted of vandalism, which was a misdemeanor at common law; felon in possession of a firearm, which was not a crime at the Founding; and drug possession and evading a peace officer, which were not shown to be crimes with an analogous, Founding-era predecessor.
As an American citizen, Duarte is among "the people," and "[t]he Second Amendment's plain text and historically understood meaning therefore presumptively guarantee his individual right to possess a firearm for self-defense. The Government failed to rebut that presumption by demonstrating that permanently depriving Duarte of this fundamental right is otherwise consistent with our Nation's history." Section § 922(g)(1) is thus unconstitutional as applied to him.
In short, Duarte builds on now-Justice Amy Coney Barrett's dissent in Kanter v. Barr and the Third Circuit's en banc decision in Range, taking the analysis to a new height. There will undoubtedly be further guidance from the Court in Rahimi with which to access whether the classification of all persons convicted of any crime punishable by over a year in prison have forfeited Second Amendment rights for their lifetimes.
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"Mid-19th-century cases interpreting the Second Amendment carried on this unbroken tradition of referring to the right to keep and bear arms as every citizen’s right...(“The constitution of the United States also grants to the citizen the right to keep and bear arms.’”)); State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850) (describing the Second Amendment as protecting every “man’s right to carry arms . . . ‘in full open view’”)." US v. Duarte Slip Op. at 30.
And yet there are those, such as Halbrook who say Open Carry can be banned in favor of concealed carry, and who lied when he said on a FedSoc video that New York had completely banned Open Carry prior to NYSRPA v. Bruen (2022).
So why was McDonald necessary?? Seems like the 2A was an individual right at ratification…and yet Scalia believed incorporation was necessary? Such a head scratcher.
See Barron v. City of Baltimore.
Not a head scratcher at all. You still don't grasp that the state and federal governments are different. The 2A was an individual right at ratification, but it restricted only the federal government, not the state governments. Just like the 1A, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, and 8A.
I think they're concerned that if the Court is presented with a choice of open carry, or no carry at all, the Court will go for no carry at all. Despite it being absolutely clear that the right is to carry openly.
It's not a principled stance, it's tactical, in light of a Court that's not really committed to upholding the 2nd amendment, just doing so as a regrettable consequence of judicial doctrine.
It took many decades for the right to every terrible implement of the soldier to be transformed into the privilege to own just what the government deems unscary. It's going to take decades restoring the original right. Cycle after cycle of partial restoration, followed by no disaster, the Court relaxing a bit and restoring a bit more.
And of course, undoing the penumbral "right to armed self-defense" at the same time, including the right to carry your "terrible implements of the soldier" all around town.
There's a balance between what you're allowed to own and what you're allowed to do with them. I agree that the current balance (few weapons, lots of uses) is the opposite of what the 2A originally meant. But it did not mean lots of weapons, lots of uses.
The 2nd amendment originally meant basically any weapon, and any lawful use. Robbery not being legal, for instance, armed robbery wasn't protected.
So, yeah, actually, it was lots of weapons AND lots of uses.
It did not mean "any lawful use." First of all Scalia made that up. Second of all it's retarded. It's either self-defeating... just pass a law making armed self-defense illegal and it's no longer a lawful use... or it's enormously overinclusive, giving people a Constitutional right to do any lawful activity armed. Armed grocery shopping. Armed travelling by air. Armed loan applications. Armed petitioning for a redress of grievances.
Stupido.
OK, demonstrate that it didn't mean any lawful use. Using sources from the appropriate period. I've certainly read enough of those sources, got Halbrook, Kopel, et all on my library shelf. And that's my conclusion: If you owned a gun, you could lawfully use it for any lawful purpose.
"Second of all it’s retarded. It’s either self-defeating… just pass a law making armed self-defense illegal and it’s no longer a lawful use"
And while you're at it, pass a law making it illegal to breath while armed, and everybody will be obligated to drop dead if they're a gun owner. You've just suggested outlawing what is probably THE definitive example of a 9th amendment unenumerated right: Self defense.
The problem with your over-inclusive argument is presentism. You fail to realize that basically everything you cite in your parade of horribles was regarded as perfectly normal within living memory. For instance flying with guns was perfectly routine until the 60's.
The problem with your over-inclusive argument is presentism. You fail to realize that basically everything you cite in your parade of horribles was regarded as perfectly normal within living memory. For instance flying with guns was perfectly routine until the 60’s.
Haha that’s an obvious lie. Not the flying part, just the part that implies there have never been any gun use restrictions whatsoever until very recently. Obviously not true. Even restrictions like brandishing a gun would be unconstitutional in this understanding. If scaring people is legal, then armed scaring people would have to be constitutionally protected.
Also, just because flying with a gun was routine doesn’t mean there was a constitutional right to do it. Can you point to a case — since overridden, of course — where a court found a constitutional right to armed airflight?
Never said that there weren't any gun use restrictions whatsoever until very recently. I said that, within living memory, if you could legally do it unarmed, you could do it armed.
Do you think you could threaten somebody with a baseball bat or a brick, or even your fist, and it wouldn't be assault because you didn't have a gun on you?
Well, if there have ever been any constitutional gun use restrictions, especially in the distant past, then your argument that guns can be used to enhance any otherwise lawful activity is undermined. And there have been.
Forget the baseball bat. If it's lawful for me to give you the side-eye, then I have a constitutional right to give you the side-eye armed by your logic. That's brandishing a gun.
"... I have a constitutional right to give you the side-eye armed by your logic. That’s brandishing a gun."
No, it is not 'brandishing a gun.' Some of you need to actually check a dictionary (and the law) once in a while.
Huh? What do you think this is?
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270#:~:text=%281%29%20It%20shall%20be%20unlawful%20for%20any%20person,warrants%20alarm%20for%20the%20safety%20of%20other%20persons.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm... in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
I think it's the ramblings of an idiot who doesn't understand that brandishing a firearm requires the firearm to actually, you know, be involved.
Giving someone side-eye ("A sidelong glance expressing disapproval or contempt"), whether armed or otherwise, does not meet any of the criteria you've quoted. If you were Inspector fucking Gadget, it still wouldn't reach anywhere near the criteria of 'brandishing.'
Hello, I'm using the word "armed" to mean, as it always means, involving a weapon, here a gun. Armed robbery is robbery with a gun, not robbery in the presence of a gun. Armed self-defense means defending oneself with a gun, not punching someone while packing.
Side-eye refers to an attempt to intimidate, so armed side-eye is an attempt to intimidate with a gun, aka brandishing.
Get it now?
Go back and read the thread with that in mind. By "armed petitioning for the redress of grievances" I mean petitioning the government at the point of a gun. Of course the gun is involved, the whole point of this conversation is identifying which activities that involve a gun are protected by the Second Amendment.
"Get it now?"
Yeah, I get it. Brett is talking about doing lawful things while possessing a gun. You are deliberately trying to confuse the issue by talking about using a gun to do otherwise lawful things.
To paraphrase Brett: It was legal to fly while carrying a gun.
To paraphrase you: Demanding to be allowed on an aircraft at gunpoint is exactly the same as flying while armed.
Yes, it did mean "any lawful use".
No, it did not mean “any lawful use.” This is fun!
Here's a question for you. Jury deliberations are lawful, right? Do you think you have a constitutional right to armed jury deliberations?
FWIW, given the text, I think the "carry" stuff is some of the strongest ground for the gun rights movement. "Keep and bear" certainly seems to mean you can have the gun in your dwelling, or have it on your person.
Obviously, that doesn't answer the questions in this case, felon disarmament, licensing requirements, etc. But I can't imagine a right to "bear" arms that is consistent with widespread restrictions on the carrying of arms.
Oh, it's pretty easy. Even Heller and Bruen recognize that the keeping and bearing are means, not ends in themselves. So the question is, means to do what? Once you've answered that question, you can restrict keeping and bearing to the extent that that legitimate purpose isn't impacted.
Your argument reminds me of the one Scalia/Brennan/Marshall/Stevens trashed (admittedly, in dissent) in Maryland v. Craig:
The reasoning is as follows: The Confrontation Clause guarantees not only what it explicitly provides for -- "face-to-face" confrontation -- but also implied and collateral rights such as cross-examination, oath, and observation of demeanor (TRUE); the purpose of this entire cluster of rights is to ensure the reliability of evidence (TRUE); the Maryland procedure preserves the implied and collateral rights (TRUE), which adequately ensure the reliability of evidence (perhaps TRUE); therefore the Confrontation Clause is not violated by denying what it explicitly provides for -- "face-to-face" confrontation (unquestionably FALSE). This reasoning abstracts from the right to its purposes, and then eliminates the right. It is wrong because the Confrontation Clause does not guarantee reliable evidence; it guarantees specific trial procedures that were thought to assure reliable evidence, undeniably among which was "face-to-face" confrontation. Whatever else it may mean in addition, the defendant's constitutional right "to be confronted with the witnesses against him" means, always and everywhere, at least what it explicitly says
No, that isn’t my argument. I’m not saying that as long as the ends are met, the means don’t matter. I’m saying that the means only matter to the extent that they further the ends.
The analogue to the Confrontation Clause would be something like if someone demanded the right to a face-to-face confrontation not because they were interested in ensuring the reliability of evidence, but just to spit in the guy’s face. The Confrontation Clause doesn’t guarantee a face-to-face confrontation for the purpose of spittle.
But he nailed it: The 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee the ends of keeping and bearing, it guarantees the keeping and bearing itself, in order to advance those ends.
So that you've decided that the keeping and bearing doesn't advance those ends in some case is utterly irrelevant.
So that you’ve decided that the keeping and bearing doesn’t advance those ends in some case is utterly irrelevant.
It’s totally relevant. You yourself have said over and over that in the case of a robbery, for example, the right to keep and bear disappears, because robberies aren’t a legitimate purpose. That’s a perfect example of a case where the keeping and bearing don’t advance legitimate ends and therefore aren't protected.
And that’s why Bruen and Heller focus so much on armed self-defense — that’s the purpose that they use to justify all the keeping and bearing.
No, I have not said that.
In the case of robbery, you have a criminal use of a right. Doesn't mean the right ceased to exist, it's the robbery, not the having a gun, that's the crime.
Oh my goodness sillybuns, are you developing Alzheimer's? You said it in this very thread!
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/05/20/second-amendment-roundup-just-in-time-for-the-supreme-court-to-consider-in-rahimi/?comments=true#comment-10568878
Several of the opinions of early courts list 'construction' for their decisions. Being without but a few years in existence, our country was being 'constructed' every day. Newness demanded 'construction' from the courts to the country. Construction continues. However, there remains exacting words which construction can not tread on; the Bill of Rights can not narrowed since it has been transformed into the few Rights available. While other Rights exist, must be fought for, more so than they should, sadly, the Bill of Rights, however, must never faulter or be reduced. Being seen as they are today, the Bill of Rights should and must be expanded, plainly, by amendment, to give force for Rights in these days of oppression by federal government over reach, excessive lawfare, and the cowardness of too many people unwilling to be Citizens.
A comment as trenchant and to the point as the reasoning Thomas used in Bruen. A good match for Halbrook’s reasoning too.
On the other hand, readers may want to take a look at yesterday’s NYT article about gun violence in Columbus, OH.
How strange? An individual right that doesn’t apply to states and apparently only applied to the federal government…I guess only citizens in DC and federal territories would have had standing which is why so few cases were brought until Heller?? Such a head scratcher.
It is not a head scratcher.
Before 1868, the Bill of Rights only constrained the federal government.
Exactly, so what individuals were protected by the 2A?? Certainly not citizens in the states because the 2A didn’t apply to the states.
This is a nonstarter. Before 1868, the bill of rights contained many individual rights which individual rights possessed AGAINST THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, and against the Federal government only.
While that may seem absurd to you, it’s a straightforward part of constitutional history.
That's not true. The Supreme Court of Georgia felt constrained by the 2nd amendment in 1842.
Article 1 gave Congress the authority to arm the militia and the states couldn't interfere with that.
Why, what relevance could it have?
The effects of Prohibition fairly rapidly persuaded the public that the 18th amendment had been a bad idea, but it remained a binding part of the Constitution until it was formally repealed.
Same with the 2nd amendment, except for the part where the public hasn't actually been persuaded it was a bad idea. Just a minority of the population, who think that REALLY thinking it's a bad idea should substitute for a repealing amendment.
Let me guess, the guns that are killing people by themselves are in the minority areas.
From the Columbus Dispatch May 18, 2024
“On Saturday afternoon, police reported that Malachi Pee, 27; Da’ondre Bullock, 18; and Garcia Dixon Jr., 26, had died from the shooting.”
I’ll wait until all of the facts are in before making any conclusions but my guess is these aren’t Amish Zionists
The other Murder?
Columbus Police are investigating the fatal shooting of a 30-year-old man Sunday morning Downtown.
Columbus Division of Police officers responded to reports of the shooting at 5:20 a.m. Sunday in the 300 block of Marshall Passage, south of East Main Street near Franklin University.
Officers found Raymundo Sanchez-Hernandez suffering from a gunshot wound. Sanchez-Hernandez was transferred to Grant Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead at 6:10 a.m.
Jeez, I was wondering why my lawn guys didn't show up yesterday
Frank
On the other hand, readers may want to take a look at yesterday’s NYT article about gun violence in Columbus, OH.
There was a Reason.com article about it.
I love how leftists just post advertisements for their favorite left-establishment propaganda outlets. They think they are admirable and smart for doing this. Good one, Stephen Lathrop.
"While Heller stated that the Amendment protects "the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms" for self-defense, the universe of "the people" is larger. "
Worth noting that in Miller, the defendant was unambiguously a felon, and a violent one, too. But the Court, rather than deciding on that basis, thought it necessary to inquire about the nature of the firearm he'd owned, instead.
"First, like some other courts, Duarte notes that proposals related to disarming criminals in three state ratifying conventions failed to pass. But..."
Strictly speaking, I think they really should have stopped right there. Proposals that fail tell us what wasn't part of the tradition, not what was. You can get into no end of mischief if you start considering proposed laws that failed.
"Worth noting that in Miller, the defendant was unambiguously a felon, and a violent one, too. But the Court, rather than deciding on that basis, thought it necessary to inquire about the nature of the firearm he’d owned, instead."
The Miller case was about possession of an unregistered (no tax stamp) short barrel shotgun in violation of the NFA, it was not a felon in possession case.
My understanding is that the federal prohibition of felons possessing guns didn't exist until the 1968 Gun Control Act.
The interesting thing about the inquiry about the nature of the firearm is that had the Miller court taken a collective rather than individual right view of 2A, that would not have been unnecessary.
"My understanding is that the federal prohibition of felons possessing guns didn’t exist until the 1968 Gun Control Act."
True. It was part of the gradual process of the federal government giving up on the idea that it was limited to enumerated powers. Same reason the early federal gun laws (And drug laws!) were written as extortionate taxes that you had to be allowed to pay, rather than straight up bans.
The point is, though, it wasn't about Miller at all, it was about the gun, or rather his failure to have paid an extortionate tax on it. That Miller wasn't law abiding wasn't considered relevant.
I don't think this example supports your position the way you think. In addition to MatthewSlyfield's point that Miller's criminal history was irrelevant to the statute he was convicted of violating, the Court also concluded that the Second Amendment didn't protect his right to own the weapon at all. So it had no occasion to consider whether his lack of law-abidingness might justify a restriction on owning the weapon that would be impermissible if applied to someone else.
'History and tradition' should begin at the point that all peoples had the right to vote
God forbid we should expand who gets rights, without at the same time contracting the extent of the rights, eh?
What are you on about, Brett?
There have been three historical points at which the franchise was extended.
1971, to 18-21 year olds
1920, to women.
1870, to blacks.
By 1870 the Southern states were beginning to implement Jim Crow. Especially in the area of gun control laws which were neutrally phrased but only enforced against blacks.
In 1920 Jim Crow was in full bloom.
By 1971 the gun control movement was at approximately it's high water mark in terms of success.
So the functional upshot of starting history and tradition at the point where "all peoples had the right to vote" is to capture either Jim Crow in the South, or a nation-wide movement determined to abolish the right we're discussing. It enormously contracts the right.
‘History and tradition’ should begin at the point that all peoples had the right to vote
And your ability to comment should be eliminated until such time as you demonstrate at least some capacity for rational thought...or really, any type of thought.
We've moved away even from the modest restrictions Scalia endorsed in his Heller decision. Where will it end?
In City of Los Angelese v. Lyons, 1983, the Court held that nobody had standing to seek an injunction preventing police use of chokeholds because no one could show that every officer will always use a chokehold on every suspect. We're heading toward a regime where no matter how violent the man, how bristling he is with firearms, or who likely he is to shoot someone, in his bedroom or out of it, a court can't take away his gun because you can't show that he will certainly shoot someone.
I don't see any stopping point, given this analysis. Can someone tell me where it is?
a court can’t take away his gun because you can’t show that he will certainly shoot someone.
Which expands to the general and absurd argument that you can't sentence someone on the grounds of future dangerousness.
So, objections to 'pre-crime' are absurd?
You sentence someone for their past conduct.
But you frame laws to constrain future conduct. And everyone has to obey them alike.
Which expands to the general and absurd argument that you can’t sentence someone on the grounds of future dangerousness.
Your use of "absurd" there would seem to be the linguistic equivalent of division by zero.
I sure hope we have. Scalia was very half-hearted in his support for the 2nd amendment, and didn't pretend otherwise.
"Can someone tell me where it is?"
Well, duh: You get to take his gun away when you actually convict him of a violent felony.
I get that you really like the idea of pre-crime, of subjecting people to the legal consequences of guilt based on it being "obvious" that they're going to do something wrong. But that's not how our legal system is supposed to treat rights.
From US v Rahimi:
"Between December 2020 and January 2021, Zackey Rahimi was involved in a series of violent incidents in Arlington, Texas, including multiple shootings and a hit-and-run. Rahimi was under a civil protective order for alleged assault against his ex-girlfriend, which explicitly prohibited him from possessing firearms. Police searched his home and found a rifle and a pistol, leading to Rahimi’s indictment for violating federal law 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8), which makes it unlawful for someone under a domestic violence restraining order to possess firearms."
Has it occurred to you that they COULD have just charged him with the supposed violent assault against his ex-girlfriend, and put him away behind bars? That maybe the problem isn't that they're letting people who haven't been convicted of crimes retain their rights, but instead that they're not bothering to convict bad dudes like Rahimi of their crimes?
Do you think “violence” is the test this court adopted for whether or not a felony can lead to disarmament?
He can still be punished if he shoots someone, you know.
“One free bite” (or maybe I should say “one free murder”)
Yeah, that's the way these things typically work: You get punished for what you did, not what somebody fears you might do. You can call it "one free bite", I call it "leaving the innocent the hell alone".
I mean, deterrence and incapacitation are kind of an important component of criminal sentencing, and pretty much always have been...
I mean, deterrence and incapacitation are kind of an important component of criminal sentencing, and pretty much always have been…
The operative phrase there being “criminal sentencing”, which means that one is paying the price of having committed a relevant crime (or at least been convicted of committing one), not simply having the potential to do so.
Right. Like when someone gets convicted of a felony, and then loses their right to possess a firearm.
The argument here is that it has to be a felony felony, not just a 'we call all crimes felonies just because' felony.
Of course, in Rahimi's case the only felony he got tried for was having a gun while under a domestic violence restraining order. Which makes claiming he lost the right due to a felony kind of circular.
Is there some kind of rule or principle that can distinguish between a felony felony and the other kind? Or do we have to ask you in each individual case?
Yes, Rahimi's case raises a different issue.
"Is there some kind of rule or principle that can distinguish between a felony felony and the other kind?"
That is indeed an interesting question. Pretty clearly the government can't circumvent a rule that civil rights are only lost on conviction for a felony by declaring breathing to be a felony with a negligible penalty aside from being disarmed. Pretty clearly the government CAN disarm you for murder, or some other traditional serious felony.
Where does the line go in between? That's above my pay grade, but I know who IS paid to draw it.
Bellmore, it takes a maniac to insist that being required to obey the law is a punishment.
So, how is it one free murder, if you got punished for that murder? Did you even think that through?
Too late to help the victim.
My position is entirely mainstream, or was until recently. Restrictions can be placed on someone adjudged "a danger to himself or others". They don't have to wait for him to actually kill someone.
Yeah, it was mainstream back when we were institutionalizing people left and right.
As someone who worked in the field of domestic violence for 10 years, and saw beatings that were obviously foreseeable, my perspective is different from yours.
Also different are the perspectives of parents of children shot by unbalanced people whose red flags were ignored.
Look, the basic problem is that there IS a nation-wide movement, on the retreat in most places, but still dominant in several states and more local jurisdictions, and entrenched in the lower judiciary, which is set on abolishing the right in question. This is something you can't reasonably fail to account for.
So we look at "reasonable" gun regulations, and the situation is somewhat like "separate but equal" prior to Brown; In theory there "separate but equal" accommodations. But in practice, "separate but equal" was a sham, because nobody who wanted "separate" actually wanted "equal"; The separation was to enable inequality!
Similarly, in theory you can have reasonable gun regulations, but in practice almost everybody who is pushing new gun regulations is actually an enemy of the 2nd amendment, and "reasonable" is the last thing they want. Or rather, what they think is reasonable is abolishing the right.
How does this apply in this case?
We've got a dude, pretty clearly a nasty piece of work, and you think it's not safe for him to have guns. Maybe I think so, too.
But why is the problem that he can have guns, when he's perfectly capable of unarmed violence, too? You only care about violence if it's with a gun, maybe?
The truth if he assaulted his GF he should have been prosecuted for that assault, and put behind bars! Not hit with a restraining order.
I see you not taking this stuff seriously enough until it provides an opportunity to take somebody's guns away, and THEN, anything goes.
You want Red Flag laws on EVERYTHING? Freedom of travel? Freedom to own cars? Freedom to not wear an ankle monitor? I'd oppose those laws, too, but at least you'd be consistent if you supported them all.
But, no. If there's an excuse to take away guns, you're in. Otherwise, you don't care. It's not about the violence, it's just about the guns.
I was wondering how long it would take "Ms Lovejoy" to make an appearance.
Yeah, the key word there is "adjudged" as in a court decision in an adversarial hearing.
It's "too late to help the victim" of a rape. Does that mean we should preemptively castrate every male on the planet?
It's "too late to help the victim" of a car crash. Should we ban all cars, too?
It's "too late to help the victim" of an unjustified police killing. Abolish all police? (Wait, you might actually argue in favor of that one.)
It's "too late to help the victim" is a nonsense argument that has no place in a just society.
"It’s “too late to help the victim” of a car crash. Should we ban all cars, too?"
In fairness, we yank drivers licenses from, say, reckless drivers.
Yeah, after they’ve been convicted of reckless driving. And, remind me: Which amendment had to do with driving?
Yes, after they have been adjudicated to have violated a law about driving. The analogy would be losing your right to carry a handgun after being convicted of firing it recklessly by, say, shooting randomly in a built-up area without considering your backstop.
But even then, we don't yank the drivers license for life. Reckless driving results in a suspension of your license for a period generally measured in months and in many jurisdictions, you can get even that waived by retaking a safe driving course.
Indeed. Hence it seems sensible to me that, say, someone convicted of a violent crime – armed robbery, for example – could have their firearm rights curtailed for some period. And yet there are people – Brett for example – who argue that if you aren’t currently in prison, you have the same gun rights as someone with no criminal record at all.
Once upon a time, we had a system where people who had lost their rights could petition to have them restored. That seemed to work well, IMHO. Except the funding for the restorations has been denied for three decades or so, and the SC allowed that in the Bean case.
"And yet there are people – Brett for example – who argue that if you aren’t currently in prison, you have the same gun rights as someone with no criminal record at all."
Not at all. I'd argue you SHOULD have the same gun rights. As a policy matter, not a constitutional matter. It is absolutely constitutional to permanently disarm somebody as part of the sentence for a violent felony.
The problem with doing so is that it creates a system where you have two classes of citizens walking around free: Those with all their rights, and those with a curtailed set of rights. And this requires a system for distinguishing them and denying those rights to the second class citizens.
If such a system were highly effective and imposed minimal inconvenience on the first class citizens, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea.
But the real system meets neither standard. It is highly ineffective on account of most criminals obtaining their firearms via a black market that cannot realistically be eliminated. And it is highly intrusive when it comes to the rights of non-criminals! Licenses. Registration lists. Background checks. Gun owners live in what amounts to a limited purpose police state! All of it justified on the basis of merely inconveniencing the criminals who've had their rights curtailed.
IMO it just isn't worth it, it fails any rational cost/benefit analysis. Just accept that, once criminals have completed their sentences, they get all their rights back, and dump the whole damn system into the trash bin of history, and go back to being free.
Licenses. Registration lists. Background checks. Gun owners live in what amounts to a limited purpose police state!
Like school bus drivers. Except without the periodic medical exams and surprise drug tests imposed on the drivers.
It's a pretty good analogy, too. Compared to others, school bus drivers have a disproportionate responsibility to protect public welfare. Just like gun carriers.
Like school bus drivers, without the part where driving a school bus isn't a constitutional right.
That IS kind of the key element here: The effort to treat an explicitly guaranteed constitutional right as though it were just a privilege which can be arbitrarily restricted or abolished.
Bellmore, in point of fact, the only 2A gun right which is, "explicitly guaranteed," is the militia purpose. All other purposes you defend are NOT explicitly guaranteed. If you suppose that makes each of those, "a privilege which can be arbitrarily restricted or abolished," then own that and live with it. But whatever you suppose, stop claiming explicit constitutional authorizations which do not exist.
Too late to help the victim.
Which has nothing at all to do with it being "free".
After the first the rest are free.
Do you believe that it would be legal to lock up certain demographics if they statistically pose a greater threat to society than others?
A court can't take away captcrisis' computer, because no one can show he will *certainly* oppose individual rights.
I think this decision has some problems, but that doesn’t seem like an accurate characterization of the holding.
It's not, it's a talking point. The goal is to convert the right to keep and bear arms back into a privilege, so that the privilege can be gradually taken away.
but that doesn’t seem like an accurate characterization of the holding
Captcrisis misrepresenting something via asinine, simple-minded hyperbole? Hold the presses!
.
That will be decided by a Supreme Court that resembles modern America and is disinclined to flatter gun nuts -- who, like anti-abortion absolutists and supporters of Israel's right-wing belligerence, seem destined to pay a severe price for aligning with the losing side in the American culture war.
A quote from an article in today's NYT:
Mr. Keys and his wife, Charae Williams Keys, were getting into their car after a Father’s Day visit in 2021 with her grandparents in a leafy neighborhood near Walnut Hill Park in Columbus, Ohio. A 72-year-old neighbor carrying a rifle accosted them in the belief, he later told the police, that Mr. Keys had let the air out of his daughter’s tires and poisoned his lawn.
Mr. Keys, who was carrying a pistol in his waistband, and his father-in-law tried to disarm the man, knocking him to the ground, while another relative ran back inside to get a .22 rifle. While Ms. Keys ducked behind the car to call 911, she heard multiple gunshots. She emerged to find her husband mortally wounded.
It took a moment for everyone to realize that the shots had come from a fourth gun across the street. Elias Smith, a 24-year-old ex-Marine, had stepped to his front door with a so-called ghost gun, an AR-style rifle that Mr. Smith had assembled from parts ordered online. Within seconds, he opened fire, hitting Mr. Keys five times. “What are you shooting for?” a relative of Mr. Keys can be heard asking on surveillance video that captured parts of the incident.
Mr. Smith answered, “I don’t know".
It's like a Right-wing masturbatory vision of paradise!
You know what? Nail Smith to the wall for all I care, I'll hand the nails to you.
Just leave the people who DON'T do things like that the hell alone!
Close the barn door after the horse is out!
Just don't lock the animals less prone to wandering about inside!
[There's an individual right to self defense; that does not mean every attempt to make it harder to do a mass shooting is tyranny or unconstitutional. We put up with plenty of crime prevention policies that are inconvenient to the innocent.]
Did you actually think that analogy through? You want to treat people like domestic animals?
Yes, Brett, I am arguing that mass shooters are just like horses and gun owners are just like other farm animals.
Sure sounds like it, since you think the government is entitled to lock us up in a barn.
I honestly don't remember. What is your position on stop and frisk?
Terry stops?
Let’s turn to Texas – where Governor Abbot just pardoned a cold-blooded murderer. Daniel Perry developed an obsession with killing a Black Lives Matters protester. He had numerous posts and direct messages on social media expressing his desire to shoot them. This fit with other posts where he self-identified as a “racist” (his term) and called blacks “monkeys”. In the weeks leading up to the incident, Perry conducted internet searches on the phrases “protest tonight”, “protesters in Seattle gets shot,” “riot shootouts,” and “protests in Dallas live.” After that latter search, Perry texted to a friend, “I might go to Dallas to shoot looters.”
So he did, driving to the site of a protest and running a red light to purposely drive into the middle of a crowd of demonstrators. He didn’t have to – he could have easily driven around them – but he wanted to. There was Garrett Foster, who was (of course – this is America) carrying a gun. After he murdered Foster, Perry told the cops, “I believe he was going to aim at me. I didn’t want to give him a chance to aim at me.”
A jury reviewed Perry’s gushing desire to kill a protester. They looked at all his bullshit excuses for purposely driving into a group of demonstrators. They watched the video of his first police interview, when he admited Foster didn’t aim a weapon in his direction. And they convicted him of murder. But Abbot pardoned him.
Of course we know today’s Right is souless, cowardly and broken (human-being-wise). Trump now identifies with Al Capone in his rallies, finally able to proudly claim gangster-status. Meanwhile, his bootlicking zombie base falls all over itself to excuse Trump’s lifelong criminality. The Speaker of the House travels to NYC to tell lies about the judge’s daughter, because that’s how a hollowed-out empty nothing of a man whores. It’s the pro-criminal party.
https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-smearing-of-garrett-foster
The issue is that you had about as much evidence that the guy he killed was murderous, too. This is to be expected: In most killings, both sides of the encounter are nasty folk. Doesn't necessarily mean the shooting wasn't self defense.
And I'm getting the impression you have him confused with that guy from Charlotte, who actually DID drive into a crowd, rather than have a crowd surround him as happened with Perry.
My take away? Stop protesting on the damn streets, already.
Brett Bellmore : "The issue is that you had about as much evidence that the guy he killed was murderous, too."
What evidence? Garrett Foster didn't fantasize online about murdering people, Perry did. Garrett Foster didn't travel dozens of miles looking for a chance to kill, Perry did. Garrett Foster didn't point a weapon at Perry per the latter's own admission. Foster's weapon was on safe without a round in the chamber.
And you're the one confused. Perry ran a red light and purposely drove into the crowd. He wasn't "surrounded". That's just you, coming up with another faux-reason to excuse murder. But why do I bother? You belong to the pro-criminal party. Your takeaway is to fantasize about non-existent evidence against Foster and blithely write-off a cold-blooded killing because you don't like BLM.
No this is great. The precedent is set: we can just kill anyone carrying a gun. I'm ok with that outcome.
Well, anybody who's carrying a gun and part of a mob attacking a car, anyway. I'm not worried, personally, as I don't generally join mobs and attack cars.
There was no mob attacking a car. There was a car attacking a mob.
But of course I’m all about running over groups of gun-carrying citizens. Mow them all down! Maybe I’ll get a really sharp car — a cybertruck! — and become a regular fixture at gun shows and Second Amendment rallies. I’m afraid for my life! Kill ’em all!
Brett, your takeaway seems to be to relitigate all cases where a liberal is shot for political reasons, until BrettLaw finds innocence from the right, and another deadly mistake from the left.
Actually, on this jury I might have voted to convict. Maybe. I'm just arguing that the idea that he engaged in justifiable self defense isn't facially absurd.
Sure. But then they had a whole dang trial.
This is an awful pardon.
I am glad you're not in the 'legalize murdering libs' but you're still just the tipp-ing as you do.
Pretty much by definition a pardon implies that the pardoning power thinks the judiciary arrived at the wrong conclusion. You are aware of that, right?
That’s not true at all. Usually pardons aren’t about wrong conclusions, they’re about extenuating circumstances that the justice system isn’t prepared to deal with. A pardon that simply overrides the jury for no other reason than that the governor thinks he knows better is pretty astonishing.
But like I said, I’m all for killing gun bearers on sight so this is great imo. Too bad somebody didn’t just shoot Kyle Rittenhouse and tidy up that little problem child.
"Usually pardons aren’t about wrong conclusions, they’re about extenuating circumstances that the justice system isn’t prepared to deal with."
A distinction without a difference, IMO; Extenuating circumstances go to guilt, which is what the trial is actually about, not just whether the person committed the act.
"A pardon that simply overrides the jury for no other reason than that the governor thinks he knows better is pretty
astonishing." routine.To be clear, let me say this again: I don't necessarily agree with this pardon, I'm just saying it's not facially absurd. This guy didn't ram a crowd with his car, like that guy in Charlottesville. He was just driving on a regular public road and got attacked by a mob. Tell Reginald Denny that's not a life threatening circumstance.
Self-defense claims are well within a jury’s wheelhouse. Pardons typically turn on factors that the jury / court aren’t competent to adjudicate. Surely you can grasp the distinction.
"This guy didn’t ram a crowd with his car, like that guy in Charlottesville. He was just driving on a regular public road and got attacked by a mob."
It is impossible to argue with someone like you who's too fucking partisan and stupid to agree upon facts already proven in a court of law. Your summary of the situation is false, and you know it, and you don't care.
He drove there to cause a conflict.
He ran a red light to cause a conflict.
He put himself and his car amongst the crowd to cause a conflict.
He then murdered someone as he said he wanted to do.
You're a worthless, partisan tool.
And he got pardoned for partisan tool reasons, by a governor who thought partisan tool constituents would reward him for doing the pardon. And as Bellmore demonstrates, the governor was right.
pardoned a cold-blooded murderer
Given that the guy shot someone who approached his vehicle as part of an angry mob that had surrounded and was pounding on that vehicle, while said guy was wielding an AK-47 and allegedly pointing it at the driver...the only applicable use of the term "cold-blooded" here is to your primitive lizard brain.
He was not "allegedly pointing it at the driver."
Of course we know today’s Right is souless, cowardly
Tell me all about how much courage there is in attacking a lone individual as part of a mob.
As to laws disarming slaves and free blacks (an "analogue" the government embarrassingly dropped in Rahimi), they "fell outside 'the people' entitled to Second Amendment protection."
If you build perfectly circular reasoning into your standards for proper originalism, you make the standards ridiculous.