The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The Difference Between Justice and the Rule of Law
The two are not the same, and may sometimes be in conflict with each other.

In the course of an interview mostly devoted to other issues, a Japanese reporter recently asked me whether there is a difference between justice and the rule of law. Some of his (understandable) confusion was purely linguistic. Both "justice" and "rule of law" are fuzzy terms that different people use in different ways. It's easy to see how non-native English speakers could get confused.
Nonetheless, there are differences between the two concepts that go beyond semantics. Sometimes, of course, "rule of law" might be used in ways that preemptively rule out the possibility that legislation that meets rule-of-law requirements could ever be unjust. In the famous Hart-Fuller debate of the 1950s, Lon Fuller argued that gravely unjust rules and regulations (like those of Nazi Germany) could never be real laws. If so, enforcing such mandates can never be squared with the rule of law.
More commonly, however, "rule of law" is used to denote crucial procedural elements of a legal system, particularly that ordinary people should be able to readily determine what laws they are required to obey, and that whether or not you get charged by the authorities depends mostly on objective legal rules rather than the exercise of official discretion (thus, the contrast between the rule of law and the "rule of men"). We might add that the rule of law bars - or at least presumptively forbids - discrimination on the basis of certain morally irrelevant characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, and gender.
By contrast, "justice" is a broader notion that focuses on the substantive rightness of the legal rule in question. Laws protecting freedom are (at least usually) just. Laws promoting slavery are not. And so on.
Understood in this way, it is easy to see how legislation that meets the requirements of the rule of law can nonetheless be profoundly unjust. Consider a law mandating the death penalty for jaywalking. It's certainly clear and unequivocal. Assume, further, that there is no enforcement discretion; no discrimination on the basis of race, gender, or any other morally arbitrary trait. Nor is there any favoritism. It is enforced against the rich and powerful no less than the poor and weak. If the governor of the state jaywalks, he or she will be executed just as readily as a homeless person who commits the same offense.
This rule meets the requirements of the rule of law. But it is still blatantly unjust. The death penalty is a hugely disproportionate punishment for the offense of jaywalking, no matter how evenly it is applied.
The same can be true of laws where the "crime" itself is something that should not be illegal, even aside from the severity of the punishment. Imagine a law imposing forced labor on a large swathe of the population, such as one requiring all able-bodied adult citizens to do a month of forced labor each year. In Butler v. Perry (1916), the Supreme Court actually upheld a Florida law that required all able-bodied male citizens between the ages of 21 and 45 to either do road repair work for six days each year, provide a substitute, or pay a $3 tax (a much larger amount in inflation-adjusted terms in 1916 than it would be today).
In 1916 Florida, this law was likely enforced much more aggressively against blacks and poor people than against affluent whites. Such unequal enforcement likely violated rule-of-law principles. Perhaps the rule of law was also undermined by the fact that the law only mandated forced labor for men, exempting women. But we could easily imagine a version of the law that is enforced equally, and also covers women. That version would satisfy the requirements of the rule of law. And, unlike the death penalty for jaywalking law, the punishment seems at least reasonably proportional to the offense.
The forced labor law would nonetheless be terribly unjust, because forced labor (including forced labor for the state) is itself unjust - no matter how equally enforced. Indeed, fully equal enforcement might in some ways make things worse, because it would increase the number of people who are victimized.
If laws that meet the requirements of the rule of law can still be unjust, we might also consider whether justice might sometimes require dispensing with rule-of-law constraints. At the very least, it seems like such a possibility cannot be categorically ruled out.
Elsewhere, I have argued that the rule of law is undermined by our having too many laws.
Because of the vast scope of current law, in modern America the authorities can pin a crime on the overwhelming majority of people, if they really want to. Whether you get hauled into court or not depends more on the discretionary decisions of law enforcement officials than on any legal rule. And it is difficult or impossible for ordinary people to keep track of all the laws they are subject to and to live a normal life without running afoul of at least some of them….
Scholars estimate that the vast majority of adult Americans have violated criminal law at some point in their lives. Indeed, a recent survey finds that some 52 percent admit to violating the federal law banning possession of marijuana, to say nothing of the myriad other federal criminal laws. If you also include civil laws…. even more Americans are lawbreakers….
For most people, it is difficult to avoid violating at least some laws, or even to keep track of all the laws that apply to them….
Ignorance of the law may not be a legally valid excuse. But such ignorance is virtually inevitable when the law regulates almost every aspect of our lives and is so extensive and complicated that few can hope to keep track of it….
Most Americans, of course, never face punishment for their lawbreaking. But that is true only because the authorities lack the resources to pursue most violators and routinely exercise discretion in determining which ones are worth the effort….
In this way, the rule of law has largely been supplanted by the rule of chance and the rule of executive discretion.
I think the way to fix this problem is to drastically reduce the number of laws, and the range of behavior regulated by the state. But it's easy for me to say that. As a libertarian, I would like to abolish a vast range of current laws for reasons unrelated to rule-of-law considerations. I think a high proportion of current laws are substantively unjust; if I didn't think that, I would not be a libertarian in the first place.
But if you believe that extensive government regulation of many aspects of society is necessary - and especially if you think it's necessary to promote justice - then you are likely to face serious tradeoffs between justice and the rule of law. In some situations, you might choose to promote the former, at the expense of the latter. Note the implication that a libertarian society could stick to the rule of law much more consistently than one based on most other ideologies.
But even libertarians might sacrifice the rule of law to substantive justice in at least a few situations. What if, for example, giving government broad discretion to suppress potentially dangerous movements is the only way to prevent Nazis or communists from coming to power? Perhaps that was, in fact, the situation faced by the Russian Provisional Government in 1917, or by the Weimar Republic in the years right before 1933. If so, deviating from the rule of law might be the only way to avoid horrific injustice. I think such dilemmas are rare. But the possibility they might arise can't be categorically ruled out.
If you believe civil disobedience is sometimes justified (as Martin Luther King and others argued), the distinction between justice and the rule of law implies there may be situations where there is no obligation to obey a law, even if it meets rule-of-law requirements. As described above, such a law could still be horrifically unjust. For example, people would be justified in evading a rule-of-law compliant forced labor regime, and in helping others to do so.
Both justice and the rule of law are important values. But they are not the same thing. And there can be situations where the two come into conflict.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"The...law that required all able-bodied male citizens between the ages of 21 and 45 to either do road repair work for six days each year, provide a substitute, or pay a $3... tax would nonetheless be terribly unjust, because forced labor (including forced labor for the state) is itself unjust—no matter how equally enforced."
Why is that more unjust than just a law requiring a $3 tax?
Same reason that “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
Because we don't want laws to apply only to the poor?
The law only applies to able-bodied men (or people, given the hypo), so I'm not sure what your point is.
The point is that the rich will pay $3, and the poor will dig up the road. And since we are all rich and would happily pay $500 to escape from having to dig up the road, it seems like we have got off lightly.
So Purple Martin is thinking with his heart rather than his head.
Because this unfairness has nothing to do with the option of pay or dig, which as you pointed out is better for all perps than just pay.
It’s because the rich man’s subjective valuation of $3 differs greatly from the poor man’s. Exactly the same “unfairness” would apply with the $3 fine alone.
It’s a classic illustration of the correctness of the Austrian analysis of value.
I get the impression that a lot of the perception of injustice here derives from inflation. $3 for 6 days unskilled labor was, roughly, about the going rate at the time. At least it wasn't wildly off.
So it wasn't, "Pay a minor amount of money, or if you don't have it, do a lot of hard labor".
It was, "Pay a laborer's wages for a week, or do a week of labor".
"Exactly the same “unfairness” would apply with the $3 fine alone."
Seems right to me.
Glad to have kicked-off this thread (though it was TIP's OP).
Perhaps less than the usual amount gratuitous insult and straw-man construction/destruction (though still plenty), and a good amount of thoughtful back-and-forth advocacy of strongly-help principles. Also, more than the usual amount of at least attempting to provide relevant logical and evidentiary support (beyond just tribal talking points, though there are still plenty of those).
I thank the participants (mostly). Such discussions were once much more common, back in the olden days (VC pre-WaPo). Pity it's now so rare.
It wouldn’t be more unjust than a $3 tax, but since (by implication) the poor are unable to pay it, the $3 tax would itself be exceptionally unjust compared to a normal tax, which the people who are taxed are able to pay.
But this depends on a contested norm of justice, as so many standards of justice are.
Bourgeoisie justice would ask, not whether they can pay it, but whether they owe it. Which is a distinct question from whether it has been levied against them.
Did they actually incur this debt? Then it's just that they pay it, or make some other arrangement if they can't. Did they not incur this debt? Then it's unjust to require them to pay it, even if they wouldn't even notice the cost.
Pay for what you get, and get what you pay for, that's bourgeoisie justice. Not pay what you can, and get what you need.
We can't discuss "justice" as if people agree about what constitutes it, is my point.
Brett, don't obliterate the concept of justice as anything but a personal value.
Justice is an actual concept a society can collectively understand and strive for.
The key is institutionalism - your individual preferences won't always play, but we set up our systems in a way we agree on, and those systems get the people our group endorses in our institutions with the character and values we collectively choose.
Values by proxy may not 100% align, but there is justice in democratic institutions, where those who are to be governed get a voice in by whom and how.
Good God, you're actually going to pretend that we agree about what is just, aren't you. You're actually going to pretend that.
We set up systems we agree on, and call THOSE "law", Sarcastr0. Justice is in the pile of stuff we couldn't agree on.
You seem to be arguing there is no such thing as a just society, even conceptually.
I disagree.
Your view is pretty radical; appealing to incredulity does not look like you care to do the lift such a view requires.
No, there's absolutely such a thing as a just society, conceptually.
And we'll never agree about what constitutes it, because different people have different conceptions of "justice".
I do not believe that any society where people disagree cannot be just.
Justice is not a purely deterministic engineering concept.
Then why are you treating it like it WAS a deterministic engineering concept?
A society CAN'T simply BE "just". It can only be "just according to a particular conception of justice", and there are conflicting conceptions of justice. Because justice is subjective!
It's not that people disagreeing prevents society from being just. It's that justice being the sort of thing people inherently disagree about means that you can't simply say that a society is "just" or "unjust", you have to specify which competing conception of justice you're applying, and understand that conception isn't uncontested.
I'm saying reasonable people can differ on specifics but agree either generally or procedurally on what's just.
You're saying that the concept of justice must be subjective because some people disagree with you about it.
Which of us is being determinative here?
You do realize how extreme your view is here, right? Your position is like on the bleeding edge of postmodernist political science.
Brett, I think you capture the essence of it. Justice by it’s nature is a subjective thing. To the extent that it is actually functional, the rule of law should be an objective thing. The failure mode of law occurs when idiots fail to understand what is objective and what is subjective.
"You’re saying that the concept of justice must be subjective because some people disagree with you about it."
Your telepathy is never terribly useful. Here is a quick test to determine whether something is subjective or objective. Can both you and Brett measure the thing independently and get the same answer ? If you measure different values, you are not in the realm of the objective.
Read more of what I posted, Artifex - something can be objective within a range of acceptability.
In a multicultural society that is a necessary concept in order to have any shared values at all.
Wow, Sarc, it looks like you just solved philosophy. Some of the greatest minds worldwide have struggled with the nature of justice for thousands of years and you just bashed out the answer without a moment's thought. Impressive! You should go claim your Kyoto prize right away.
"Read more of what I posted, Artifex – something can be objective within a range of acceptability."
No, it cannot. That is not objective. As usual, you simply assert and your assertions have all of their usual value ... none. The word salad of "in a multicultural society ..." may be how you feel, but folks like you struggle with what you feel vs what is real.
The reasonable person test, you know it?
It's also known as an objective test in legal circles. It asks what a reasonable person would do in a situation.
It's best known use is in finding negligence in tort - failure to do what a reasonable person would do.
There is an objective line where reasonable becomes unreasonable, but that does not mean the test is utterly determinative of a single course of action that counts as reasonable.
The reasonable person test, you know it? It’s also known as an objective test in legal circles. It asks what a reasonable person would do in a situation.
It's a (moderately) objective test because centuries of precedent have provided more detail on what is and is not regarded as the behavior of a "reasonable person" for legal purposes. (See AP Herbert btw on the concept of the "reasonable woman.")
But that doesn't mean that everybody, or even most people, who are untutored in the law, will agree with a court's conclusion as to whether this or that is the act of a "reasonable person."
It's obvious, for example, that in this forum different people have widely different ideas as to what it would or would not be reasonable for police/college authorities to do, if anything, about college sit ins and occupations. What is "reasonable" is subjective. The law may hammer out its narrower version, which may nearly become objective. But in that journey it has acquired a special legal meaning -it's no longer the "reasonable" that is used by the common man. Upon which wide differences of opinion are to be found. Because it's subjective.
“ It’s also known as an objective test in legal circles.”
Sarcastro thinks he sees an escape by blurring legal terminology and non-legal terminology.
It’s not as clever as you think, Sarc.
I think you guys have identified a point about how authoritarians see justice. Non-authoritarians, I think, are comfortable with Sarcastro's view that "justice" is not equivalent to one specific answer to substantive law questions. In contrast, I think it is an authoritarian impulse that rejects the idea that there is a range of subjective law that is objectively just.
Shorter, perhaps, if you think there is only one right answer, why wouldn't you try to impose that on everyone?
However, if you understand that there are multiple answers that are reasonable and you don't possess the one true concept of justice, then you are willing to accept democratic processes that don't result in your preferred policies. What you see on the radical left and the radical right (both with significant authoritarian impulses) is people so convinced that their vision of justice is the only valid one that they are not only willing but eager to impose it on everyone else, often through whatever means are available.
So is requiring labor in lieu of a $3 tax objectively unjust or not?
I've puzzled over NOVA's post to try to work out what it means, but I've given up. So I'll just ask.
In contrast, I think it is an authoritarian impulse that rejects the idea that there is a range of subjective law that is objectively just.
What's "subjective law" and what's "objectively just" ? I mean as concepts.
It's possible that I might regard 5 to 8 years in jail as being the measure of a "just" sentence for offense X. But I might regard less than 5 or more than 8 as unjust. Other people may have different opinions, and the law itself may specify 2 to 5 years. Maybe 80% of the population agrees that the law as written is just. Sometimes a judge may feel that only 6 months would be enough in a particular case, but his hands are tied by sentencing guidelines.
What would "subjective law" and "objectively just" mean in the context of this hypo ?
So is requiring labor in lieu of a $3 tax objectively unjust or not?
Abstracted from all else, no, of course not. If you give me a choice between paying $3 and doing some work I am clearly better off, or no worse off, anyway, than if you simply make me pay $3.
The problem is the context of the whole thing. What is the nature of the task, and who does it benefit? Whence the authority for these requirements? IOW, I don't think we can call your program just or unjust in isolation.
What would “subjective law” and “objectively just” mean in the context of this hypo ?
Your hypo doesn't really get at the crux of my point which would apply more to what should be a punishable offense in the first place. However, the length of punishment and the concept of objective justice is essentially that found in the 8th Amendment. Although you think 5-8 years is better, the judge may think 6 months is better in some circumstance, is 2-5 years so unreasonable as to be objectively unjust? The setting of a sentence is, necessarily, somewhat subjective, but, unless you think there is only one "just" sentence (5 years, 8 days, 3 hours, and 26 minutes), then you have to admit that there are a range of sentences that are "just" in any practical use of the word. Part of that justice stems from the nature of the offense, part of it stems from the rule of law (did the person know the possible consequences of their actions? Were they given due process? Etc.).
This goes to Sarcastro's point that "something can be objective within a range of acceptability". It's like saying something is X miles away. I think part of the disagreement here is that Sarcasto is recognizing that justice, like "miles", is a very imprecise unit of measurement, but is still very practical for many everyday purposes. Justice, in that sense, is not a measurement of nanometers, but of miles. Even when any particular case would, in some objective sense, require measurement to the nanometer to truly, objectively describe the distance, the best we can do is an estimate of miles and so there is a range of objectively just results which partly depends on rule of law concepts like notice, due process, etc.
"This goes to Sarcastro’s point that “something can be objective within a range of acceptability”. It’s like saying something is X miles away. I think part of the disagreement here is that Sarcasto is recognizing that justice, like “miles”, is a very imprecise unit of measurement,"
Oh come on. At some point this gets to be like arguing with your cat about calculus. This is in not even wrong territory.
Distance is a precisely defined quantity. Not only can I precisely define "miles", I can actually talk about both accuracy and precision when taking these measurements. This is because the measurement exists independently of observation. The fact that I may have trouble measuring them with my measuring tape does not make them any less real. These "real" objective measurements and the objective relationships between them are exactly what science is trying to tease out of the universe. I get this is inconvenient to the political hack.
You can't even come up with a working definition of justice that we all accept. This is the bare minimum for an objective quantity. If you really want to be convincing, start with a definition of justice that we both accept, define units and measure arriving at a number.
Also, to get ahead of the: "range of opinions, so I don't have to define a measurement" stupidity, note that we have a strict formal definition of "a range" as well. Without a real metric returning a value, you have no range. Otherwise, range is just the usual postmodern rhetoric in attempt to appear serious.
you can’t simply say that a society is “just” or “unjust”
Well, this is true, I guess, but you are trying to deal in absolute terms when that is the wrong approach.
Some societies value justice, others don't, even if members of the former are not in perfect agreement as to what the just approach to some matter is. Does that disagreement mean the society is unjust?
You're right about the differing conceptions, but if that's a disqualifier, then we might as well not even talk about the idea.
Distance is a precisely defined quantity. Not only can I precisely define “miles”, I can actually talk about both accuracy and precision when taking these measurements. This is because the measurement exists independently of observation.
In everyday speak, this is true. But it isn't technically true. In the relativistic world, these things depend on the state of the observer. It is possible for two different observers to get two different measurements. Yes, this is only noticeable in extreme circumstances, and the effect itself is quantifiable. But if you are all in on being exactly precise, then you can't ignore quantum effects and say things like "measurement exists independently of observation". They don't.
The point is this was an analogy. Of course, distance is more precisely defined and measured than justice which is a concept with varying definitions and parameters. But if justice is a "real" thing at all, then Sarcastro's point that there is a range of things that, in legal terms, could be objectively "just" is sound. And if it is a "real" thing, it is precisely because society has decided on a general definition of what justice is.
Brett's point is accurate: It’s that justice being the sort of thing people inherently disagree about means that you can’t simply say that a society is “just” or “unjust”, you have to specify which competing conception of justice you’re applying, and understand that conception isn’t uncontested.
I don't dispute that. And that's kind of my point.
I'm not saying that justice is a precisely quantifiable quality. In fact, that's the opposite of what I am saying. Perhaps it's more akin the concepts of whether something is "near" or "far." It's not a measurable quantity, but, in context, there are a range of values that are objectively near or objectively far. As Brett says, this does require agreement on a general definition.
As an example of the broader point, the Christian tradition is (largely) built on the concept of objective truth including about moral things, i.e., there is a god's eye view which would say what justice is. It's why religious governments are often, if not always, authoritarian. They believe they have access to the one truth, rather than accepting that there are a range of morally acceptable behaviors with a corresponding range of just treatment of various behaviors under the law.
On the other hand, there are nihilists out there who reject any notion of objective truth or of moral values as anything "real" at all. For such amoral people, it's not even relevant what is just. It's will to power all the way down.
I guess my point is that both extremes tend to lead to authoritarianism. People who believe in one true objective moral truth tend to want to impose that on everyone. People who tend not to believe in any moral truths tend to want to obtain power for power's sake and impose whatever rules are beneficial to them personally.
Democracy is pretty much founded on the idea of human fallibility combined with a shared sense that there are bounds of justice within which society should operate. Neither all in on a single objective moral truth (i.e., a range of acceptable behaviors) nor all in on postmodern relativism such that there are no guideposts to behavior at all.
"You’re right about the differing conceptions, but if that’s a disqualifier, then we might as well not even talk about the idea."
What I would say is that there actually is a broad degree of agreement about some aspects of justice. Broad, not universal, and some aspects, not all.
My thesis is that those areas of actual broad agreement tend to get incorporated into law, at least in functionally democratic societies, so "rule of law" actually covers most of "justice".
The residual "justice not incorporated into law" tends to be the areas where there ISN'T broad agreement. Maybe even areas where there is contrary broad agreement, and accordingly law, and the person going on about "justice" is an outlier.
So, for instance, it is very widely agreed that theft, vandalism, and other property crimes are unjust, and that justice demands that those caught committing them be punished. This is WHY they're crimes to begin with!
That doesn't mean you won't get
Sarcastr0people raving about how sometimes fairness might require not enforcing laws against property crime. Or people whose agenda calls for failing to enforce such laws ending up in a position to carry out that agenda... until they get identified and voted out.NOVA : This goes to Sarcastro’s point that “something can be objective within a range of acceptability”
But not for something that’s subjective.
I may be willing to accept a range of 5-8 years in prison as “just” – anything less or anything more though is “unjust.” Maybe 80% of the population agrees with me.
You may be willing to accept a range of 2-4 years as “just” – anything less or anything more though is “unjust.” Maybe 20% of the population agrees with you.
The boundaries of our “just” ranges do not overlap. The specifications of each of our acceptable ranges of what is “just” contradict each other.
That a large majority agrees with me does not make my answer “objectively” just. It simply means that my subjective judgement of what is just is widely shared – as a subjective judgement – by most other members of the public.
It’s not “objective”. I can’t say that you are “objectively” wrong. Justice is not an objective quality.
Apparently lots of people think Scarlett Johansson is outstandingly beautiful. I don’t, I think she’s meh as actresses go. (No offense, Scarlett, you know exactly how much weight to put on my opinion.) It’s a subjective opinion. I’m not wrong, and the people who disagree with me aren’t wrong either.
As Brett remarks, if a large majority of the population agrees – subjectively – that such and such a thing is “just” it may be incorporated into the law. Which makes it legal. But as to “just” it’s still subjective.
I don't think the "one true vision of justice" vs. "one true range of visions of justice" moves the needle as much as you guys would hope.
You guys get that what are called "objective tests" in law are generally subjective, right?
The boundaries of our “just” ranges do not overlap. The specifications of each of our acceptable ranges of what is “just” contradict each other.
But this avoids the point where there is a range of reasonable opinion. The boundaries don't overlap, but they touch.
The death penalty for jaywalking, even if everyone is on notice, given due process, and treated equally before the law, is unjust. Objectively.
If the word just means anything, it doesn't mean that.
I think this is what you are avoiding. Why you use cases that aren't even close to the edge to make the point that what is just is not calculable. But there are things that are manifestly unjust. Again, the Eighth Amendment incorporates this concept. There is a range of reasonable debate, and then there are unjust ("cruel and unusual") punishments that may not be imposed regardless of whether 80% of people agreed with you and passed a law specifying that punishment.
Yes, in a scientific/philosophical context, whether something is just or not is not objective. In a legal context, which is what we're discussing, the law recognizes that some things are, objectively, not just. And that's both a valid way to use language and encapsulates important ideas.
I don’t think the “one true vision of justice” vs. “one true range of visions of justice” moves the needle as much as you guys would hope.
Perhaps, but adopting a view that the concept of justice has no truth value at all certainly carries significant dangers.
Why you use cases that aren’t even close to the edge to make the point that what is just is not calculable.
To bring the relevant distinction into clear focus. That’s what hypos are for – they clear away the fuss and clutter and obscurity of real life and substitute a case in which the point in question stands alone and distinct.
But there are things that are manifestly unjust. Again, the Eighth Amendment incorporates this concept. There is a range of reasonable debate, and then there are unjust (“cruel and unusual”) punishments that may not be imposed regardless of whether 80% of people agreed with you and passed a law specifying that punishment.
“Cruel and usual” is a legal term. Let us not confuse it with “just.”
If 80% of the population thinks a punishment is just, I’m struggling to see how you can conclude that it’s “manifestly unjust.” Its “manifest” injustice is not manifest to 80% of the population. That doesn’t mean that it is “objectively” just, of course. Because there’s no such concept.
Aside from that last somewhat weird example in which what is manifest to you overtrumps what 80% of the population thinks, all I can perceive is that you think that what is widely accepted by the population as ‘just” is “objectively just.” But that’s not what the word “objective” means. Even if 100% of the population thinks X is “just” that’s not a demonstration of what is “objectively” just.
It simply means that on that particular matter the values and prejudices and emotions that contribute to the subjective opinions of each member of the population happen to align. Justice is simply not a quantity that has an independent existence in the real world. It’s a construct of the intersection of each person’s values and emotions.
Which is not to say that it cannot be reasoned about. If someone favors 2 years in jail for theft, but 6 months for murder, it would be possible to quiz them as to how they arrived at this apparently strange conclusion, and they may or may not have a good answer. But in the end if that’s what they think is just, that’s what they think is just. It’s a subjective matter.
"The reasonable person test, you know it?"
This is what's known as equivocation. Objective tests in law (and there are many, not just reasonable-person analysis) are not the same as philosophical objectivity. You can't interchange them. Legal objective tests mean state of mind is a relevant element. Actual objectivity refers to whether a phenomenon is observer-independent. These are loosely related but very, very different.
"We can’t discuss “justice” as if people agree about what constitutes it, is my point."
As I was reading Ilya's post, I kept on getting stuck on his examples of just vs unjust laws. He seamlessly concluded good and bad without attempting to establish a basis of shared sentiments about justice. Where does that come from in people's minds...that silent predicate, that universal opinion (that doesn't actually exist)? (Did God so reveal Himself, and His Way, while I wasn't paying attention?)
It is, I believe, an example of what Sowell calls the "unconstrained view."
"OK, Brett. Let's just assume we agree on the definitions of right and wrong, and take it from there. OK?" It's just like how Sarc enters an argument with you, loaded with presumptions and already done with what you're about to say. I thank you for your patient treatment of that. At least, in those would-be debates, you demonstrate what it means to take a side and argue it. In Sarc's voice is a deep [moral] presumption that there is only one side; there can be no intersection of beliefs. He's fighting Antichrists, and you're justifying them. (You're one of them. lol)
I'd like to think that Somin got lazy and left out the beginning of his argument. But that doesn't explain how he finished it, published it, and thought, "That's an acceptably complete argument." I never fully made it out of the starting gate with that one.
LOL 'you didn't establish a basis of shared sentiments' is quite the ask. How would you seek to do that?
It’s just like how Sarc enters an argument with you, loaded with presumptions and already done with what you’re about to say
Come at me with specifics, not just generalized wanking
In Sarc’s voice is a deep [moral] presumption that there is only one side
This is the opposite of what I'm saying! I'm saying there can be a panoply of legitimate views!!
Really a poor show here, Bwaaah. Dismissing the OP because it failed to do an impossible sociophilosphical lift, and then you spent most of the time backhandedly insulting me in a way that makes it clear you have zero idea of my argument, you just want to be hostile to me and Somin.
I don't know what you mean by "Bourgeoisie justice," but "Pay for what you get, and get what you pay for, that’s bourgeoisie justice. Not pay what you can, and get what you need," are not the only two choices.
To take a common example, I pay taxes to support public schools, yet I have no children or other relatives attending public schools. This is because I have, implicitly, agreed to pay these taxes.
Is that unjust? Does not seem that way to me, but YMMV.
I think it’s “bourgeois” justice, which is the idea that everyone should be equal before the law.
It’s a sub Marxian dig at the absurdity of the idea that formal equality can protect a member of an oppressed class from the unfairness of a system that fails to take account of the weight of oppression. (Which expression Brett has adopted without shame.)
So a system in which you get 3 months hard labor for stealing a loaf of bread, whoever you may be, Earl, candlemaker or vagrant is bourgeois because in practice only the vagrant is constrained by it.
As for your taxes, you may have agreed in the sense that you approve the money being taken from you and have no complaint about how it is spent.
But I only agree in the sense that I am successfully coerced by the threat that the tax and some penalty too will be taken by force. Absent the coercion I wouldn’t be contributing.
As to justice, I think it is just for the government to take enough in taxes to finance those things that I think it needs to spend money on, so long as it raises the taxes in what I think is a fair manner, and spends the money wisely and frugally.
I understand that other people, unaccountably, do not share precisely the same opinions as me , and therefore as a practical matter I am resigned to the reality than the government will be raising far too much in taxes, in an unfair way, and spending it foolishly and wastefully.
But what I am capable of reluctantly resigning myself to is not coextensive with what I regard as just. Or wise and frugal.
As for your taxes, you may have agreed in the sense that you approve the money being taken from you and have no complaint about how it is spent.
But I only agree in the sense that I am successfully coerced by the threat that the tax and some penalty too will be taken by force. Absent the coercion I wouldn’t be contributing.
Are you sure, Lee? You're correct that, specifically in the case of the schools, I approve of the expenditure. But there can be other expenditures I dislike where I nonetheless regard it as just to pay taxes for.
The reason for that is that I have (implicitly) agreed to a process under which the government determines expenditures and taxes, and I am bound by that agreement. Yes, if I refuse to pay I will be coerced, but that's not the whole story.
Suppose you hire someone to paint your house. Do you pay only because if you don't you will be coerced, or, at least partly, because you think it would be unjust behavior on your part not to live up to your contract?
I’d pay the painter absent an enforcement mechanism because I agreed to pay him.
But the “implicit” agreement with the government is a fiction. I haven’t agreed anything. I mentioned the sort of terms on which I’d be willing to join a government club voluntarily, but that’s not how it works in practice.
So I pay the government taxes, and obey its other rules, for prudential not moral reasons.
Or strictly I obey some government rules because they are the same as the rules I would obey absent government - ie don’t murder, rape, steal etc. So those ones I obey for moral as well as prudential reasons.
"the $3 tax would itself be exceptionally unjust compared to a normal tax, which the people who are taxed are able to pay."
But in this case the abled bodied are able to pay as well. So is that more or less just than a normal $3 tax, where able bodied people (who are presumably benefiting from local government services as well) who are unable to pay are not taxed?
And how is a normal $3 tax effectively different from forced labor, given that most of us have to labor to survive?
Gotta love Ilya's dishonesty of noting it was likely unequally enforced then just carrying on with the argument that it was in fact unequally enforced. It's a fair point except for the conflation of fact with supposition, or bring them together with an actual court case.
I’m sure this is a fascinating discussion of legal philosophy, but the current salience of rule of law comes down to only one question, which is not mentioned. Is a president, or ex- president, subject to the law?
An interesting take. I assume you think that if - under the law - a President or ex President cannot be prosecuted, that would be a case where the rule of law (ie follow the rules, so the President gets off) conflicts with justice (he done wrong, he should be in jail.)
So we have an unusual circumstance in which justice demands a departure from the law to impose punishment not prescribed in the law. The usual examples including Somins are very much the other way round where following the rule of law is too harsh to be just.
The difficulty with doing it your way round - and there are obviously other possible cases for doing it that way round besides Presidents - is that it was traditionally thought that the feature of the rule of law that insists you must be told the rules in advance is itself inherently just, and departing from it inherently unjust.
During a term in office, it depends on what. Most actions will be within the scope of the office and thus if questions arise, there is impeachment.
So far, referring to Trump's purported "crimes" while in office and after leaving office, nothing is outside the scope of the office of the President or ex-President - nothing whatsoever.
While many choose to believe Trump is already guilty of some ill-defined vague transgressions of law, he is not, nor are there any actual violations, worthy or not, to charge him with. Any honest examination of these charges fill find them being applied without fact of any crime. That a group of people in government have brought these "charges" against Trump is likely a criminal conspiracy itself.
Given the significant evidence against him, if he's innocent, the prosecutions can only be explained by the existence of "a vast left-wing conspiracy"...
When people deny outlandish sexual assault allegations, do they generally get 83 billion dollars taken away from them by force for supposed “damages” ? Or is that just lawfare, economic warfare with a political purpose, the presence of which indicates a rule of men rather than rule of law? That’s a current salience of the rule of law.
Has there ever been another case, in New York or elsewhere, where someone was held criminally or civilly liable for “Fraud,” when there was no harm suffered or detrimental reliance by the would-be victims of the fraud? Or is that just lawfare with a political purpose, the presence of which indicates an absence of the rule of law and instead the rule of men?
As far as I know, nobody disagrees that a president or ex-president is “subject to the law.” That’s not any current issue at all. Rather, with the criminal matters you are alluding to, the question is what exactly *is* the law as it pertains certain criminal matters, official or unofficial acts of the president, etc.
1) Pretty sure you meant $83 million. And most of that was punitive damages — not "supposed" damages. And he didn't merely "deny" the allegations, which were hardly outlandish; he lashed out and defamed her. If he had merely said, "I never did that," it would never have gone any further than that. But he is mentally incontinent and can't just say something that simple.
2) It wasn't fraud; it was a violation of Executive Law § 63(12). And there was indeed harm and detrimental reliance.
3) That's either semantics or wrong. If there's a statute that says, "It is illegal for anyone except David Nieporent to commit murder," saying, "Well, David actually is subject to the law; this statute just doesn't impose any restrictions on him" is frivolous. The act of carving me out from a generally applicable criminal law is putting me above the law. And Trump is similarly claiming that former presidents have been carved out from all generally applicable criminal laws related to any acts even remotely related to their official duties.
1. Indeed I meant to type million. I haven’t followed the case closely, but do people generally get hit with an 83 million dollar judgment for “lashing out” at someone who they claim has falsely accused them of rape? On the whole, do you think this is a defensible verdict? Do you think that nobody involved here was at all motivated by political or other animus toward Donald Trump? Just a routine case like any other defendant?
2. Yes, it was a fraud case, specifically fraud under that statute. Has there ever been another case, under that statute or any other statute or common law or otherwise, where someone was held criminally or civilly liable for fraud when there was no harm or detrimental reliance shown?
If harm was shown in this case, then why did Judge Engoron emphatically reject the argument that harm is necessary? Why did Judge Engoron write,
3. It may be semantics in part, but is nonetheless true. Nobody is arguing that presidents or ex-presidents are categorically “not subject to the law.” There is a longstanding issue, as you are well aware and has been documented on this blog, regarding Congress’ ability to criminalize presidential actions that may be related to their executive functions. You may have any opinion you want about that issue or deem some argument about it frivolous, but the issue is a question of “what the law is” under the Constitution. It has nothing to do with this imaginary issue of whether presidents or ex-presidents are categorically “not subject to the law” which is something the mainstream media made up.
Most people don't act like Donald Trump.
Most people, after being adjudged to have defamed and sexually assaulted someone and found liable for damages, shut the fuck up about it and do not continue to defame the victim.
Trump deserved those verdicts. The amount of the financial penalty imposed so far doesn't seem adequate to deter Trump's continuing unlawful conduct. Let's hope that changes.
I expect Carroll to sue Trump again and win again. Does anyone doubt that prospect? The magnitude of the next judgment should be fascinating.
1. Do you understand the concept of "punitive damages"?
2. It was, in fact, "Executive Law § 63(12)". But you desperately want to call it "fraud", because then your common law understanding of "fraud" can be pulled into the discussion (of, lest we forget, "Executive Law § 63(12)") and you can continue to believe you're right and the courts have got it all wrong.
Do you understand the concept of “punitive damages”?
Oh please Miss ! I know !
"Punitive damages" are one the law's many deceitful misnomers, and a contradiction in terms.
They are not "damages" at all (though the plaintiff might get some of them as a reward in addition to the actual compensatory damages they are entitled to) - they are merely punishment. Punishment for the defendant's naughty conduct, both as retribution and as a deterrent to others.
Thus they are a criminal sanction imposed without benefit of an actual criminal offense or criminal trial
I liked this bit the wiki summary, packing a whole string of offenses against justice into three or four lines. :
"to allow redress for undetectable torts and taking some strain away from the criminal justice system. Punitive damages are most important for violations of the law that are hard to detect."
How much easier would life be for the hard working and overstressed prosecutor if the official criminal law had such understanding standards.
"It was, in fact, “Executive Law § 63(12)”. But you desperately want to call it “fraud”"
Uh . . huh. You haven't read the statute or the opinion, or anything about this case at all, have you?
[moved]
“I’m not in this business to protect the rules. I serve justice.” – Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast - Part 4
A) Is that a comic book or a movie?
B) Does it matter?
According to the article you linked to, a pretty significant portion of the lawbreaking comes from drunk driving and lying about/failing to pay taxes. Are those things that you think shouldn’t be criminalized?
Well who honestly in your experience hasn't lied about paying taxes or drunk driving?
I'll tell you the truth about an admiditdlly drunk driving experience I had, that ended in a fatally.
I went out with co-workers after work, drank more than my fill, then took the bus back to the park and ride where I parked my car. Then when I was driving up the hill to my home I saw a cat crossing the road right in front of me at a high rate of speed.
The worst happened, I took my foot off the gas but before I hit the brake the cat was gone, and a coyote I never saw crossed into my path following the cat.
Thump thump (it takes a front and and back wheel to kill a coyote).
I saved that cat's life. Did I do the wrong thing because I was over 0.08?
Possibly I've lied on a tax return about paying taxes on that bag of chips I bought in a neighboring state with a lower sales tax rate, and hadn't opened when I hit the state line.
But I've certainly never lied about drunk driving.
LOL. Same here!
Yes, driving drunk is generally wrong even if it works out well by happenstance. Glad I could clear that up for you.
I drove drunk as a teenager a couple times, it worked out fine, but I felt bad about it and never lied about it. With the perspective of age, I truly regret doing it.
Certainly I've never cheated on my taxes except trivially. I suppose signing off the form without reporting every quarter I picked up off the ground counts as lying so you got me there, but I'm still in favor of criminal tax fraud and evasion laws.
I was a teetotaler when I was a stupid teenager, I didn't actually take up drinking until my 1st wife divorced me, and I was already middle aged by then. So I've literally never driven drunk, or even mildly buzzed, to have to lie about it. I expect a lot of people can honestly say that, the social norm against drunk driving is a LOT stronger today than it once was.
Funny story: Back in the 70's I went to a family gathering with my parents, and dad got kind of sloshed, and insisted on driving home anyway. Mom and dad were arguing about it the whole way home, and finally dad pulled into a parking lot to really have it out with her.
"Give me one good reason I should hand over these keys!"
"You parked at a police station." And he meekly handed them over.
"I didn’t actually take up drinking until my 1st wife divorced me"
That gives you a chance of not making that mistake again: living totally sober. Only an addict can rightly justify such an existence.
If you can't give up total sobriety for your own sake, you can at least give it up for the benefit of others.
(I used to take myself seriously, but then...just kidding...never really did.)
There’s another commonly used substance that has much less significant effects on driver motor skills.
A long time ago, I was driving on a back road with some friends in the car. We were all conversing, and then, I came upon a STOP sign. I brought the car to a gentle and full halt.
10 minutes later, one of my friends asked, “Why are we waiting here at this STOP sign?”
I was just waiting for the STOP sign to turn green. Anyway, I promptly proceeded forward, with caution.
.
You are asking whether a drunken driver is doing something wrong?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
The more time you spend holed up in your off-the-grid hermit shack, away from other people, the better.
On a related but definitely different matter, there’s an excellent play and film versions thereof called The Winslow Boy. In which a boy is expelled from a Royal Navy college for stealing.
The play is about his family’s efforts to clear his name in the face of the then legal obstacle that “the King can do no wrong.” In the end a top top lawyer is hired ( a sort of much more upmarket version of Ted Cruz, ie smart, very conservative, indeed also a politician, and extremely unsympathetic and dislikeable).
The legal trick is a “Petition of Right” where the government consents to be sued, requiring the lawyer/ politico to embarrass the government enough to grant his petition, the formal words of which are “Let right be done.”
Anyway right at the end, when the case has been won, the boys sister who has never liked the cold unemotional lawyer apologises for distrusting his motives, thanks him for his help and says “justice has been done.”
To which the lawyer replies “Not justice, right. Easy to do justice, very hard to do right.”
What does he mean ?
It sounds like he’s using justice in the sense of law and right in the sense of justice, but since he’s very smart I assume he’s making a different point.
What point ?
"It sounds like he’s using justice in the sense of law and right in the sense of justice"
I sees it like you says it. Call me simpleminded. (And I think you nailed the description of Ted Cruz.)
The play and film were based on this boy's case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Archer-Shee
(Note this sad coda: "Archer-Shee was killed, aged 19, at the First Battle of Ypres in October 1914 ")
The thing is, "law" is a domain where we have, at least in theory, agreed upon and formalized the rules, and so, at least in theory, "rule of law" is subject to objective evaluation. Humans are terrible at being objective, but in theory...
Justice, by contrast, is a domain where we have NOT agreed upon and formalized the rules. Rather, they're fundamentally subject to disagreement.
So the moment you start replacing law with justice, you guarantee irreconcilable conflict.
Argue justice when the laws are being drafted. Not in place of their being enforced by any agent of the state.
It’s only a conflict if you insist everyone agree with your take every time.
A society cannot live by bright line rules alone. Prosecutorial discretion is protected because we know that.
So we agree on the method by which we select the people who do justice.
That’s not appeals court judges; those people do law. It’s prosecutors and lower court judges.
Says the guy who defends depriving some people of the protection of the law, allowing folks who commit property crimes against them to go unprosecuted, in the interest of 'fairness'. You're the poster boy for what I'm talking about.
I will engage you once on this collateral issue.
-There is a study that says amidst crime going down, property crime tended to go down an average of 7% less in jurisdictions with prosecutors that had a progressive agenda.
-I posit that perhaps people might have other values than maximizing crime reduction being instantiated by that prosecutor, like fairness. And that slight variations on values like that is OK.
-You lose your shit.
You can't handle mere notion of people with a slightly different value system than you, because your value system is perfect and unearned confidence is your thing even when it comes to philosophical concepts.
With that rigidity, you will never find justice anywhere.
Yes, you jumped in with an appeal to an unfalsifiable argument and then ran off being "sure" that somebody could maybe sometime do research that might, with sufficient squinting, lend support to the argument.
And then you ignore that the 7% was measured even before the peak of those prosecutors' abuses.
Lots of us are happy to disagree with people who act in remotely good faith. You put yourself outside that limit.
I've noticed that you call arguments you have trouble addressing bad faith.
That reflects quite poorly on your intellectual honesty with yourself.
When your arguments involve lies or unfalsifiable claims, I call you on them. Then you usually shift to whining that you got called out, and why can't we just agree to disagree, and how I'm a partisan hack because I don't respect your position. Respect is earned, not an entitlement.
You claim I make an unfalsifiable argument, and then you claim I offer weak support for it.
This shows you need to do some remedial work on what unfalsifiable means.
My position is only that there are a number of legitimate positions. That seems pretty anodyne to me.
You seem more like you just want to pick a fight than that you have any actual issue.
Oh, right, you also resort to straw men. I never said you offered weak support for the argument you pushed. I said you arm-waved that weak support might be possible. In my book, that's close to admitting that the argument is actually unfalsifiable.
He’s calling your arguments bad faith. Not everybody’s arguments. Your arguments.
You routinely mangle facts and mangle data and misrepresent history.
There are widely varying views about law and justice in these discussions. But about you, I see very little variance. You’re the only person I’ve ever seen assert that you’re a person who argues in good faith. Yes, occasionally, there’s an intersection between good faith and your argument. But that appears to be mainly coincidental.
And no, I’m not talking about differences of opinion. I’m talking about how intentionally you obfuscate facts, and just skate on like nobody saw what they saw; like nobody sees your rampant deceit.
Sarc: “Overall crime is down in New York City.”
Truth: Only homicide is down (over last year). Other major crimes, like felonious assault and grand larceny, continue their climb since 2020.
You routinely make broad accusations of me that I know are not true.
You say that I lie, but you very rarely point out any examples. Your one example?
https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/pr0101/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-march-first-quarter-2024
“Citywide in March 2024 compared to March 2023, overall crime dropped 5 percent, a reduction of 505 incidents. Continued declines were recorded across many bellwether crimes, including murder, down 19.4 percent (29 vs. 36); burglary, down 17.4 percent (1,005 vs. 1,217); and grand larceny, down 7 percent (3,883 vs. 4,176). Robbery was flat in March (1,264 vs. 1,264), while grand larceny auto – the theft of motor vehicles – declined for the fourth month in a row, down 10.9 percent (1,037 vs. 1,164). From January 1 through the end of the first quarter of 2024, major crime and violence throughout the five boroughs dropped 2.4 percent, a decrease of 711 incidents.”
Quit with your over the top accusations that I’m knowingly dishonest, you fucking asshole.
Work on why you’re so committed to your story about NY crime. Maybe go see a therapist. You don’t seem happy, and it's making you do some antisocial things.
Notice how you had to rely on a press release that compares only ONE MONTH, March 2023, to March 2022? Not even first quarter numbers, much less a statistically significant period.
You don’t even usually go to the data. You go straight to the propaganda that supports your conclusion, just like you did here.
You pretend we’re not at an approximately 15 year high in crime in New York City (and evidently across much of the country).
This is what you do. You call everybody a “cherry picker.” And yet, that’s one of your primary M.O.s.
This is the part where you tell me I "beclown" myself.
"From January 1 through the end of the first quarter of 2024, major crime and violence throughout the five boroughs dropped 2.4 percent, a decrease of 711 incidents.”
What the fuck is wrong with you?
You don’t even usually go to the data. You go straight to the propaganda that supports your conclusion.
Chief, I posted data from NYC.gov. If you have an issue with the numbers, post about it. This is not responsive.
You pretend we’re not at an approximately 15 year high in crime in New York City.
15 years is, of course, a new goalpost. 2009? Hard to get easy numbers on that since I'm not tracking that date.
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
Violent crime in 2009: 75,110
Violent crime in 2019 (the latest date in this data set): 69,764
At first blush, not sure I see it. But maybe you're right! I don't know *because you never mentioned this 15 years thing before*.
-----------------
Indicia of a cherry picker.
Examples: 'We're up in murders since December 2019' or 'Look at inflation since March of 2020.'
Arbitrary yet specific dates (not like 15 years but like 165 months), and/or alignment with anomalous events like the start of lockdowns.
It's not subtle; it's quite common from people here with a story they want to push more than they want to get at the truth.
Correction: grand larceny finally ticked downward a little this year. Robbery continued its climb.
And why do I so often talk about crime in NYC?
1) Because I am usually responding to you belittling the relevance and extent of crime, and
2) Because I have good data to make my case.
You are unmoved by data.
1. You linked to the site what when I linked to it you said I was linking straight to propaganda. So that was just bullshit, eh?
2. You linked just to the landing page for stats on NYC crime. Did you even click through?
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/historical-crime-data/seven-major-felony-offenses-2000-2023.pdf
This has some interesting numbers.
One note is the amount of volatility from year to year. 10% jumps seem to happen all the time. Surprising with so many data points.
2022 and 2023 are up for sure. We seem to be doing a lot better this year.
2020 and 2019 are the two lowest rates in the whole series.
So a more mixed bag than some cities, but your uniformly dark view seems unsupported.
You're a bottomless pit of shifting targets.
I'll only finish with the political point: people in New York City overwhelmingly see crime trends the way I describe them, not the way you do.
You can just run with, "I'm right and they're wrong. They're all idiots like Bwaaah."
I was walking in NYC, in my neighborhood, three days ago when a stranger asked if he could talk to me. He introduced himself as a Democratic candidate for my Congressional district. “My two priorities are climate change and housing. What concerns you?”
I thought for a moment, and said, “OK. I’ll bite. There are people who say that crime is a significant problem right now, and those who say it’s exaggerated and not significantly changed in recent years. Do you have an opinion about that?”
“Oh god, yes. It IS a big problem. And you know what? I hear about it everywhere, and especially in poorer neighborhoods. It’s in their top three issues. They see it, and want more policing. And it’s not just a momentary change. Crime is up substantially over ten to fifteen years ago, and people see it.”
His name is Bruno Grandsard. He’s been walking the streets of New York meeting and talking to people. You should send him a message to straighten out his warped view of crime.
Sarc: “How you doing?”
New Yorker: “My brother was just assaulted.”
Sarc: “So you have a problem with that?”
New Yorker: “Yes. Shouldn’t I?”
Sarc: “Weren’t your mother and father both assaulted last year?”
New Yorker: “Yes.”
Sarc: “So crime is down now. And you’re a whining snowflake.”
(Yeah. Crime is down now.)
people in New York City overwhelmingly see crime trends the way I describe them, not the way you do.
And here we are, fully moving away from numbers, where I keep annoyingly showing you're full of shit, to popular perception. Or really, just vibes.
I always knew you were gonna end up there. Really, you never left.
Wouldn’t want to draw any conclusions in light of data, would we?
Nope. Listen to the guy who lives under a rock.
“Dark and dank everywhere. A few worms to my left. No crime.”
“Oh my god! Did you hear? The school is threatening to take away Jennifer’s megaphone. That’s criminal!”
You accused me of bad faith. Your examples was my saying crime is OK in NYC this past year when you say it's way up.
I provided stats saying this was not the case.
You said those were propaganda not numbers, misread the numbers, and then and besides you meant in the past 15 years.
I provided stats saying this was not the case.
You say you have some numbers, and link to the source you previously called propaganda. But no specific numbers.
Then you just make up a story about how stats don't matter. And end with an appeal to 'people in New York overwhelming see.'
I provided numbers and sources. They show that you're full of shit.
The truth does not matter to you. You are so utterly full of your own story the truth doesn't just not matter but *pisses you off.*
NYP crime stats
Start of year through 04/29/2024 vs 04/28/2012
Murder: -13% (from 124 to 108)
Rape: +6% (from 452 to 481)
Robbery: -12% (from 5894 to 5203)
Felonious Assault: +54% (from 5577 to 8576)
Burglary: -26% (from 5553 to 4091)
Grand larceny: +24% (from 12242 to 15123)
GL automobile: +78% (from 2369 to 4219)
Overall: +17% (from 32211 to 37801)
These stats do not include petty crime such as shoplifting.
Note that I only picked 2012 because it was approximately 10-15 years ago, and I was able to get a comparable time period in the historic data. (I did not examine the data before reporting it.)
The most recent five year picture is substantially uglier than that, i.e. crime went down steadily from 2012 until 2019, and then it shot up in 2020. I'm trying to show you long-term trends that actually register with voters, and not just the recent drop in crime this year which is significant but only in some categories.
Here is the entire time series since 2000 to show how weird your focus is:
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/historical-crime-data/seven-major-felony-offenses-2000-2023.pdf
Basically, there was a jump in 2022. Pretending there’s been a crime wave since 2012 is not supportable from the stats.
I linked and talked about this above, but it looks like you skipped over it because the real numbers made you sad.
Please provide your assertions about crime stats, and your sources. I don’t see you showing numbers.
Which of my stats do you dispute? What number(s) are wrong?
And please reference what I actually said, not what you wish I said.
I'm making some pretty simple assertions about crime in New York City:
1) Crime went up dramatically in 2020 over 2019.
2) Crime only just started coming down in the past few months, but remains substantially worse than pre-pandemic, 2019 levels.
3) Crime isn't near as bad now as the 1980s, but it represents a backslide of about 10-15 years of progress of reducing crime.
Which of those assertions do you disagree with, and on what basis?
I linked to numbers.
You are ignoring to volatility in the series.
‘We’re way up since 2012’ makes it sound like this is some record-breaking crime wave. The time series shows it is one fluctuation among many.
There was a jump in 2022. Everyone knows that. That’s not a sexy enough story for you, so you make promises the numbers can’t keep.
So you leave the numbers and appeal to ‘everyone in NYC knows.’
I rely on numbers because I do not trust my 'everyone knows.' Numbers keep us honest.
1) Crime went up dramatically in 2020 over 2019.
-Wrong. Check my linked data series.
-2) Crime only just started coming down in the past few months, but remains substantially worse than pre-pandemic, 2019 levels.
Or so our latest data says. But that represents a 2 year uptick, nothing out of the ordinary in the jumps up and down since 2000. As you could see if you looked at the linked data series.
3) Crime isn’t near as bad now as the 1980s, but it represents a backslide of about 10-15 years of progress of reducing crime.
This is only the case if this trend sustains. We're talking 2 data points.
And you admit it seems to be coming back down. But your weird angry thing about it will never die!!!!!!!!
Crime went up a couple of years ago. No one knows why. Now it's coming down.
There is little evidence any of the baseline conditions have changed.
You're acting like you are disputing my numbers, but you are not really.
If you want to dispute my number, say something like, "I think that number there that says [fill in bwaah number] is wrong, and it should be [fill in Sarc number]. I base my number on [fill in Sarc source, indicating any Sarc calculation].
To really understand why crime is so glaring to New Yorkers, you have to consider that we were seeing a slow, steady, reduction in crime for about 30 years right up through 2019. Then in 2020, starting with the Geoarge Floyd protests, crime increased quickly over the subsequent few months, roughly 50% and in just about all categories. So 2019 is like the old days, and it’s been the new higher crime days ever since, right up until the reductions we’ve begun to see in the past few months.
The best data I can get is first quarter 2019 compared to first quarter 2024 to show you what people are feeling:
Murder: +19% (69 to 82)
Rape: -16% (438 to 366)
Robbery: +46% (2690 to 3937)
Felonious Assault: +48% (4319 to 6390)
Burglary: +33% (2355 to 3129)
Grand larceny: +25% (9252 to 11606)
GL automobile: +225% (971 to 3158)
Overall: +43% (20094 to 28668)
Though we are now seeing a reduction in crime over the past few months, that reduction has taken us from a net increase last year of roughly 55% over the old normal, vs now where those numbers say we’re 43% over the old normal.
That’s what people are feeling in major crimes…that 43% increases over prior normal. But those numbers don’t speak of shoplifting and petty theft, nor how visible, rampant, and corrosive is that kind of crime. It’s like having a resdient thief as a housemate, for every New Yorker who is aware of it. And as I’ve indicated, nobody denies what New Yorkers are saying about crime.
Except you.
2024 data
2019 data
And what you refuse to presume is that I'm a reasonably honest, thoughtful, active, observant person living in NYC, trying very hard to understand my/our predicament here in the city in the most realistic terms. I interact with a diversity of people across the boroughs who, in aggregate, check just about all the socioeconomic classification boxes that y'alls care so much about. I've examined and used NYPD crime data for many years, before crime was an elevated concern to me as it became by the end of 2020.
And you, some random person from I-don't-know-where-else, are telling me that I don't know what's going on with crime in New York City. No. YOU know clearly, and I am quite wrong.
I really do wonder how you can have empathy for people, and yet in this very case, treat somebody so much like a non-person, a non-worthy person, a dishonest person, a lying deceitful person, a crackpot, a wrong-minded dismissable ignoramus.
As a person living with crime and its effects, your treatment of me is grossly insensitive. It would border on being inhuman if it weren't so clear that you've just checked out of a legitimate, genuinely considerate dialog. And if this really is you being honest with me, I am clueless about what this is about for you. I have a crime problem, and you don't.
I agree with you up to this point, "So the moment you start replacing law with justice, you guarantee irreconcilable conflict."
The point isn't about replacing law with justice.
And for the record (and have stated often here), I'm strongly against violence.
The Columbia situation - like J6 - is criminal activity and IS NOT civil disobedience.
Holding a demonstration a few hours after the time limit - OK.
But not violence.
This is serous, not meant as a trap or some partisan ploy.
I've lost track of Columbia among all the schools doing this encampment thing.
What violence did they do?
They busted into Hamilton hall Monday night, and the University finally lost their patience and called in the police. The occupiers did NOT go peacefully.
At this very moment there are pitched battles between the Hamas allies and counter-protesters who've gotten sick of their shit.
Rooting for the counterprotesters to do good violence? You are not the right person to answer my question. So much for your much-vaunted rule of law, Brett.
Melts away in moments when you're angry enough. You're a great object lesson in how weak the argument from rule of law ends up being in the long run.
And don’t call a group that includes no small number of Jews ‘Hamas allies.’ It’s just an offensive and empty insult at that point. We all know you burn with hate; no need to work to show it.
Your link is some live feed that is now mostly about Los Angeles.
While I agree that civil disobedience would require going nonviolently, if not passively, when arrested, apedad seems to be talking about violence *before* any clashes with police that rendered the encampment illegitimate.
I’m not a knee-jerk pro encampment person, so I allow this could be the case; I want to see the specific examples of what he was thinking, not you rooting for blood.
"And don’t call a group that includes no small number of Jews ‘Hamas allies.’ "
Yeah, right.
"apedad seems to be talking about violence *before* any clashes with police that rendered the encampment illegitimate."
They didn't walk into Hamilton hall, Sarcastr0. They broke into it, and forcibly denied its use to other students. That's WHY the university finally called in the police, so trivially it happened before the clash with the police.
'and forcibly denied its use to other students'
I can't get over the university-haters' sudden concern for people being temporarily inconvenienced by a building occupation as some sort of appalling crime.
This is a bad faith argument.
I agree. It's ridiculous. The whole thing is just another anti-university attack vector. Not that universities aren't their own worst enemies, but still.
I take it you're unfamiliar with Nige's style of commentary...
Where were these bigoted right-wing write-offs when Bundy-style hillbillies were occupying federal property or stealing federal property?
Where were these half-educated conservative losers when armed protesters were storming state capitols and closing streets for virus-flouting rallies?
Conservative critics of students at strong schools objecting to right-wing war crimes are just lousy people who deserve scorn rather than respect.
Where your evidence that the counterprotesters started the violence, or that Brett is rooting for them to do violence?
Or is this an isolated demand for rigor?
I don't know who started the violence between the Hamas lovers and the counter-protesters. Though given that one side consists of terrorist lovers, I have suspicions.
I was actually rooting for the police to handle it, if Columbia was finally running out of tolerance for the protests. It's generally a bad idea to engage in retail vigilantism if law enforcement are actually functioning.
Well, I think S_0 is largely trying to go on the offensive before people point out that his side was calling for universities to de-escalate and give space to "those who wished to destroy" (in the immortal words of Stephanie Rawlings-Blake), right up until the Columbia bigots occupied a building.
apedad seems to be thinking about something more than breaking into a building; but I could be wrong about that; I'll leave it to him to clarify.
Saying 'I like the police but Columbia is wrong enough it's vigilante time' is not actually supporting rule of law, it's supporting rule of Brett.
The rule of law actually requires that the law be enforced, Sarcastr0. If it's not enforced, the rule of law is already gone, vigilantism doesn't displace it, it replaces it.
A Trump voter has thoughts on the Rule Of Law.
You know how you complain justice is a subjective concept? Well your personal take on rule of law is also subjective.
Actually considering how often it aligns with your priors it looks a lot more like your definition of justice.
'Though given that one side consists of terrorist lovers, I have suspicions.'
I think the body count and therefore the sheer scale of violence the counter-protestors explicitly support, versus the explicitly anti-war pro-Palestinian side should be part of your suspicions.
'I was actually rooting for the police to handle it,'
Pro-police state.
"I think the body count and therefore the sheer scale of violence the counter-protestors explicitly support, "
Speaking of explicitly supporting violence...
Random quote as noted by a Twitter site called Israeli War Room.
Your confirmation bias is really flying now.
Actual chant by Columbia protesters. You're not really fond of accepting evidence, are you?
I accept the evidence that there some of the protesters are antiemetic assholes.
Compare and contrast with the 'Jews will not Replace Us' thing if you want to see what an actual antisemetic event looks like.
At this point anyone actively and explicitly supporting the killing of tens of thousands of people does not have anything resembling a moral high ground when it comes to denouncing randomers. The protest is about ending the conflict. The opposition wants to continue it.
The protest was organized and run by antisemitic assholes, Sarcastr0! You're just in denial about what sort of people voluntarily associate themselves with a terrorist organization.
The protest was full of Jews. One of the counter-protests was organised by Christian extremists who think the conflict is the sign of the End Days when all the Jews who haven’t converted will get shipped back to Israel to die in the Final Battle. Lots of other right-wing supporters think the Jews are to blame for the Great Replacement. Some believe both! Somehow!
Brett, that's overdetermined and I think you realize that.
Again, compare the organization of Unite the Right with these protests - which organizations did it, what kind of branding they used, etc.
You know how you railed against overuse of the race card? Well look at yourself now!
Well, of course it's overdetermined that a protest organized by a group that's openly supporting Hamas, in order to support Hamas, will be run by antisemitic assholes. In the dictionary sense that there are multiple causes for it, any one of which would be sufficient.
Nige said:
I happen to disagree re: the "anti-Zionist" protesters supposedly having "a moral high ground" because "[their] protest is about ending the conflict." As someone put it:
But even if you were 100% correct about the protesters having "a moral high ground" -- that still doesn't give them the right to break school rules (building occupations, encampments, etc.), traffic laws (i.e., marching in the street), and criminal laws (incitement, harassment, intimidation, "true threats," assault, murder).
“organized by a group that’s openly supporting Hamas” you talking about SJP?
I’m no fan of their national leadership, but lets clarify your thesis here:
It looks to me like you are arguing (well, assuming) that these campus protests are all organized by SJP’s national leadership. Is that what you’re assumption is?
That would be what you need if you want to be comparable to Unite the Right, but I don't think it's supportable from the facts I've seen.
Sarcastr0, for all I know there are other antisemitic organizations involved, but the Columbia protest WAS organized by SJP. And, yes, SJP is essentially a Hamas front/ally.
Pro-Palestine campus group behind Columbia University protests received over $3million a year in funding from 'charities' linked to Hamas
It's sad to see the people here who ignore or minimize the Oct 7 massacre, the lies of the Hamas minister of health on "civilian" casualties or the fact that entire war doctrine of Hamas is "commit war crimes against Jews and Palestinians" and these deluded or evil people are lecturing others about "moral high ground"? Sorry, not taking ethics or morality lessons from sociopathic morons.
Your link is typical Daily Mail.
It says 'the group behind the protests' and then later: 'one of the main groups'
"It says ‘the group behind the protests’ and then later: ‘one of the main groups’"
I SAID, "for all I know there are other antisemitic organizations involved,", so typically you quibble about a point I disclaimed making.
The key point here being that SJP has all sorts of organizational connections to Hamas, is tapped into the same funding sources, and they are routinely expressing support for Hamas' genocidal aims.
Realistically, they are at best an ally of Hamas, at worst a front for them.
You: "for all I know there are other antisemitic organizations involved, but the Columbia protest WAS organized by SJP."
Your link then goes to the Daily Mail, which after some bloviating calls SJP "one of the main groups, and is really all over the map as to what they count as SJP.
You have failed to establish your thesis with the source you provided.
"The key point here being that SJP has all sorts of organizational connections to Hamas"
That is not the key point. That is a new goalpost.
'By the way, I am not calling these anti-war rallies.'
Yeah, but who gives a fuck? People who support the slaughter of tens of thousands of people will stoop to anything.
'that still doesn’t give them the right'
Who said they had the 'right?' They're breaking rules as part of a protest. The feral NYPD were sicced on them. Applause form the anti-statist free speech absolutists!
'Sorry, not taking ethics or morality lessons from sociopathic morons.'
Especially not from the sorts of sociopathic morons who think one atrocity justifies other, far worse levels of slaughter.
'Realistically, they are at best an ally of Hamas, at worst a front for them.'
Nah, that's just what you need them to be, but you're pro-war, so...
.
So says an antisocial, autistic, disaffected, bigoted right-wing stain on American society who spends his deplorable life marinated in conspiracy theories and disdain for modern America.
You will improve American society at replacement, Mr. Bellmore. Not before then.
According to news reports, Israel supporters disassembled barricades and were attacked, while Hamas supporters attacked police and the counterprotesters. Yet you maintain the former is violent and the latter is not. That's messed up, man.
And Hamas is the lawful government of Palestine. Anyone who supports that status quo is a Hamas supporter (and an enemy to innocent Palestinians). If you don't like that, start speaking out against Hamas and supporting their removal from power instead of backing their agenda.
'and an enemy to innocent Palestinians'
Who, the people who want the IDF to stop killing them? As opposed to the people who support killing them?
"offensive and empty insult "
No, its an accurate insult.
There is a war between Israel and Hamas. The protestors oppose Israel, seek concessions they think hurt Israel. They do not demand anything of Hamas, not even release of child, female or elderly hostages.
Ally is 100% correct.
Some might be given pause when you end up saying all the Jews criticizing the Israeli government are supporters of Hamas.
Others just relish the righteous purity that is signified by making declaring yet more evil enemies.
"criticizing the Israeli government"
Oh, is that what they are doing?
The ADL thinks differently.
"Campus Antisemitism Surges Amid Encampments and Related Protests at Columbia and Other U.S. Colleges"
I think I will value an organization dedicated to defending Jews over your opinion. Carry on though.
The ADL is frequently willing to label stuff antisemitic that is utterly unrelated to Judaism, just because it conflicts with their liberal politics. But SJP is far enough beyond the pale that they can't ignore it.
ADL is bad and condemns good organizations. It is not to be trusted.
Except when ADL condemns a bad organization, which just shows how bad the organization truly is.
And thus, you will never be challenged by reality.
The ADL, in conjunction with the Southern Poverty Law Center, has a page that says that you, Brett Bellmore, are "known to be associated with right-wing extremism."
Do you deny that? LOL
In my many years as an NPR listener, I was annually amused by the "news story" in which the Anti-Defamation League reported that "anti-Semitism was significantly on the rise this year."
I am not representing whether or not anti-Semitism rose in any of those years; I am merely doubting there was any chance of the ADL reporting it flat or down. It's like obtaining an evaluation of a crime incident from Benjamin Crump.
From your quote, I do not see ADL saying the encampments are all supporting Hamas. Seems like they're being careful not to, actually.
The guy who complains about nutpicking holds out hope that an imaginary guy somewhere proves the rule of antisemites organizing and running these protests.
It is ABSOLUTELY civil disobedience, it's textbook civil disobedience, it's civil disobedience at the mild end of the scale, or it was until they invaded the building, but since no-one got hurt, still civil disobediance. You can't declare it violent because you don't like it, even those fuckers arrmed with machine guns outside bookshops, I revile them, but their protest was not violent, whereas Jan 6th was violent in execution and intent.
Textbook civil disobedience is Gandhi by the sea shore drying a pan of seawater to protest the British salt monopoly. Rosa Parks sitting at the front of the bus. The Greensboro students eating at the lunch counter. In Textbook civil disobedience you publicly violate the law you are protesting, in the expectation that the state publicly punishing you for the violation will offend the community's conscience, and result in the law being changed.
Today's 'civil disobedience' does not violate the law being protested, because generally it's either trying to compel some action, so there's nothing to violate, or the law is actually pretty popular, and the public would approve of its enforcement.
So, instead some other perfectly defensible law gets violated, with the objective of inconveniencing other people, so that they can't just ignore you. You spray paint the Arc de Triomphe, not because you're protesting it being white marble, but in the hope that the government will give into your demands just to make you stop.
Modern 'civil disobedience', IOW, is a form of extortion.
Modern ‘civil disobedience’, IOW, is a form of extortion.
Guess what the southern governors said about MLK? Or the hardliners in the British Empire? Or Governor Jim Rhodes?
You go overbroad with your definition of extortion, it's really hard to make a carveout for when you disobey the law you're protesting against - the differences are symbolic, not practical.
Don't strain to condemn the method or you end up looking like a huge authoritarian.
It's OK to say a protest is bad because it is pushing for a bad thing.
No, I think he’s right. “I’m going to break this law because I think it’s unjust and I want to call people’s attention to that fact by getting arrested for violating it” is classic civil disobedience. “I’m going to harass people and make them suffer until you do what I want — oh, and I demand that I not be punished for this" isn’t.
(Mostly) always fun when we differ, DMN.
How is that a functional difference?
I get the alignment carries symbolic weight, but if I'm in authority or even the public the protesters are trying to activate, I'm not sure it's particularly material what law is being disobeyed.
As Nige pointed out, sit ins have been a thing since the 1950s. I don't much like the idea of classifying that as extortion; I think that abuses the word to make this sound morally uglier than it necessarily is.
It's a functional difference because the object of the act is different. The object of the lunch counter sit in was to be served at the lunch counter, not to punish random third parties. The sit in was a win-win for protesters: either they got served, or they got arrested simply for trying to be served, revealing the unfairness of the situation.
This would be the equivalent of saying, "If Woolworth won't serve us, then we're going to shut down the entire city block, punishing Woolworth's customers and owners and customers of nearby stores (people who have no control over — or even connection to — Woolworth's policies) because they shouldn't be allowed to go about their day in peace if we don't get what we want. Either you cave to our demands or we'll keep escalating to put more pressure on people. And one of our demands is no consequences for our actions."
The theory of impact is the same; the alignment from the person you are disobeying and the change you want seems shallow - the lunch counter server isn't the issue, those who made and enforce the law is.
Getting arrested is a win-win for these sit-in people as well, eh?
I do think you have a really good point on the impact of the protest being broadly public; that isn't something you see in mere sit-ins (though it was a thing in the Vietnam protests, so it has a legacy).
I'll need to think through the implications of this, but I still don't think it's extortion since the people being burdened/threatened are not the same as those who could make the desired change.
I also feel like there's a threshold issue here where making things kinda sucky isn't really the usual vision that word conjures.
"the lunch counter server isn’t the issue, those who made and enforce the law is."
But you're still breaking the law you object to, not some unrelated and perfectly defensible law. Rosa Parks didn't slash the bus tires, or chain herself across the door to keep other people from boarding. She just sat down, like anybody else, to be prosecuted for that exactly: Sitting down like anybody else.
In one case the objective is to force the law you're violating to be publicly enforced, on the assumption that the general public will find the law offensive when forced to look it in the eye.
In the other case the objective is to BE offensive. Do you think throwing tomato soup on classic paintings, defacing monuments, gluing yourself to the roadway to obstruct traffic, are attempts to persuade? No, they're just trying to be so obnoxious that the public will give them what they want to make them go away.
That is, extortion.
I disagree with you as to the objective in the second case.
Plenty of interviews with activists on this. No one thinks if the wreck enough paintings the public will insist on giving them victory.
It is an attempt to gain attention, with the assumption that upon attention being grabbed the public will see the justice of the cause.
Often that's a stupid; people so blinded by their righteousness they think it's an objective fact.
Sometimes they're right, and they win.
'No, they’re just trying to be so obnoxious that the public will give them what they want to make them go away.'
You elected TRUMP.
Also the idea that the sit-ins weren't offensive and obnoxious to the majority of southern white Americans, and to a lot of northern Americans, too, and that they weren't part of a movement determined to keep being offensive and obnoxious to them until they got what they wanted is just a laughable soft focus whitewashing of history.
I don’t much like the idea of classifying that as extortion; I think that abuses the word to make this sound morally uglier than it necessarily is.
Oooo - stop the presses - he's found a semantic objection that he likes !
Haha - good put.
This isn't some old cycle, which if you look below was my main issue. It is a pretty novel discussion.
But you are correct that like all semantic arguments it is at a remove from the actual values/facts/policies or whatever being debated.
“I’m going to harass people and make them suffer until you do what I want — oh, and I demand that I not be punished for this”
Is that an actual quote? While harassing people is certainly bad, it doesn't exactly seem like it's going to shake the foundations of anything, and demanding that they not be punished? I would certainly try to minimise the bowback to myself and fellow activists if it was me, there's no thereat or extortion in that, they still knew that the NYPD goon squads were a real risk to THEM, far more real than any threat they posed to anyone.
No, the civil disobedience you approve of is all safely in the past and its cause has been judged virtuous. You have the staunch moral courage of hindsight. Contemporary civil disobedience has to be crushed because a) you disagree with it b) it’s being carried out by young people who have the temerity to have their own opinions, which you hate c) is being carried out by college students who you also hate. Occupations and sit-ins have been a part of civil disobedicne since it first became a concept. The people who support the thing they oppose do not get to set the parameters for their protest.
This can't be extortion because they are threatening nothing that can directly effect outcomes or damage anything in any meaningful way. The Ghandi protest you praise DID cause damage to the thing it was aimed against. Tha's closer to extortion. if you inisist on viewing it that way.
In fact, the only real threat was always hanging over the protesters - sooner or later the feral and savage NYPD were going to be set on them.
"feral and savage NYPD "
Amazing.
How many dead yesterday? Must be hundreds.
Better luck next time.
Of course. Who would approve of disobedience — no matter how civil — in favor of an unjust cause?
There were two sets of protests in the 1950s and 1960s: those for civil rights and those against. Nobody lauds the white parents who took their kids out of school (no matter how peacefully) so that they wouldn't have to attend with Ruby Bridges, or the teachers who civilly refused to teach her. (Only one teacher in the school would!)
"Nobody lauds the white parents who took their kids out of school (no matter how peacefully) so that they wouldn’t have to attend with Ruby Bridges . . . "
Several states still celebrate the Confederacy.
You don't read about them as much in the past few years (because of the progress shoved down conservatives' protesting throats by better Americans), but segregated proms likely are still occurring in a few desolate backwaters.
Race-targeting voter suppression is still one of the three pillars (with gerrymandering and structural amplification of hayseed votes) in the Republican-conservative electoral strategy.
Nobody applauds the bigots? What a stupid fucking thing to think or say.
"Who would approve of disobedience — no matter how civil — in favor of an unjust cause?"
And THAT is what drove the change in 'civil disobedience': Today's groups don't actually think they can persuade the general public that their causes are just. They may personally think they're just, but they know the public isn't going to agree.
You see a huge difference in the behavior of groups who think the public agrees with them, or could be persuaded to agree, and the groups that don't aspire to persuade, just want to force concessions.
‘Today’s groups don’t actually think’
They think more people agree with them than not, it’s getting official policy to change that’s the problem. But it’s also a question of right and wrong. You believe it’s moral to kill tens of thousands of people uselessly and needlessly. They disagree.
They may personally think they’re just, but they know the public isn’t going to agree.
Oh hay Brett doing telepathy again.
Because why bother to check what activists say; those people all lie.
Only Brett knows the truth of their heart.
There’s this weird brain-worm some people have that prevents them from thinking other people are sincere about what they say and do, with the exceptions of people who say and do awful things, those people not only have to be taken at their word, but as speaking for everyone else who are clearly thinking the same thing, no matter what they say or do.
These have more in common with the anti-war protests after 9/11. They caused disruption and obstruction too. ANSWER and Code Pink meant they were Stalinist! But they were right.
No society in the world has ever been set up where the law operates like some deterministic turn-key. No legal system can encompass all fact patterns.
And in that ambiguity, there is plenty of room for justice, and plenty of room for injustice. You need good people even if you are a society of laws not men.
And when our values fall outside the range of legality, you cannot depart from the law. Because our values will differ. That means there will always be excursions where despite our best efforts our system operates not according to your or my values. No system is perfect, especially given the variations in humanity.
But in a well instantiated system of laws, that's going to be rare for the mainstream of society.
On Twitter I've occasionally gotten into heated disagreement with the eminent legal blogger SpinningHugo about the question of whether the rule of law includes human rights/civil liberties. In my view (consistently with Lord Bingham, the most famous British judge-scholar to write about the rule of law in recent decades) it does, but he thinks it doesn't. Of course, in continental Europe we have a concept of Rechtsstaat, which definitely includes more than just the rule of law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat
For reference, here are Lord Bingham's principles of the rule of law. Note that principle 5 is the human rights point I mentioned. (For more see his 2010 book.)
https://binghamcentre.biicl.org/our-vision
This is a closer approximation to what the "rule of law" actually means :
(1) The law must be accessible and so far as possible intelligible, clear and predictable.
(2) Questions of legal right and liability should [deletion] to the greatest possible extent be resolved by application of the law and not the exercise of discretion.
(3) The laws of the land should apply equally to all, [deletion] unless the law states otherwise
(4) Ministers and public officers at all levels must exercise the powers conferred on them [deletion]in good faith, fairly, for the purpose for which the powers were conferred, without exceeding the limits of such powers [deletion]
(5) [deleted]
(6) Means must be provided for resolving, without prohibitive cost or inordinate delay, bona fide civil disputes which the parties themselves are unable to resolve.
(7) The adjudicative procedures provided by the state should be [deletion]set out clearly and should be adhered to
(8) ]deleted]
In (2) "to the greatest extent possible" replaces "ordinarily" to make it clear that the qualification refers to practical limits of minimising discretion, not to some special trump card that my be produced to allow discretion even when it is not required.
In (3) that all the laws apply equally to all people, may be a good thing to have in a set of laws, but it has nothing to do with the concept of the rule of law - which is basically about (1) + (2) - ie the laws are known in advance and they are adjudicated according to specified procedures with the minimum of discretion. It's perfectly possible to have the "rule of law" with some thinks forbidden to the peasants which are not forbidden to nobles.
In (4) the Bingham version has a pile of stuff added to allow the judge to overrule the Minister based on fluff like "good faith", "fairly", judicially imagined "purpose" and "not unreasonably." Which you would expect from a judge. The rule of law however simply requires that Ministers and public officials stay within their legal powers as specified in the law.
(5) and (8) are about the sources of law in the legal system. The law might accept human rights and international law as valid sources of law, or it might not - it certainly doesn't need to to qualify as "rule of law" though. In practice since both human rights and international law are seldom expressed in the sort of detail used in a domestic statute, a legal system which chooses to accept (5) and (8) is running grave risks of underminding its qualifications under (1)
Something went awry with my edit of (4)
Ministers and public officers at all levels must exercise the powers conferred on them [deletion]in good faith, fairly, for the purpose for which the powers were conferred, without exceeding the limits of such powers [deletion]
It should simply read :
Ministers and public officers at all levels must exercise the powers conferred on them [deletion], without exceeding the limits of such powers [deletion]
(6) is a bit ambiguous. I have left it in because it can be read simply as a detail under (2) - ie civil disputes should be dealt with under the legal system as specified in advance
On the other hand it might be intended to mean that the government should finance parties involved in civil disputes, which may or may not be a good idea, but certainly has nothing to do with the rule of law.
(7) as amended is just detail under (2) - obviously "fair' has to go as that just another huge dollop of discretion claimed by the judges. Of course nothing prevents those aspects of adjudicative procedures as are widely accepted as "fair' being specifically added to the detailed statutes on adjudicative procedure quite consistently with the rule of law.
"discrimination on the basis of certain morally irrelevant characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, and gender."
Sex, not gender. Race and ethnicity are real. Gender is 'la plume de ma tante. Male and female are sexes, not genders. Please stop feeding the pests and they'll go away.
Why would it be OK to discriminate on the basis of either?
Well, for starters, only women get pap smears, only men get prostate exams. That's 'discrimination', isn't it?
And then there's the matter of sex segregation in some sports on account of the fact that men and women are biologically different to the point holding competitions for some sorts of sports that weren't sex segregated would be just a joke, or even physically dangerous for the women.
Hence the "morally irrelevant" in the original quote, which presumably also meant to include other forms of relevance.
Usually when I attach an adjective to a word like "irrelevant" it's because I actually DO mean to exclude other adjectives... Otherwise I wouldn't bother with the adjective.
My suggestion was that prof. Somin meant that practically irrelevant characteristics are also morally irrelevant, so that the single adjective "morally" is sufficient to also address the example you gave.
Certain people cannot resist any whiff of this semantic argument.
It's purely cyclical and basically a partisan ritual at this point.
The difference between sex and gender is more than semantics. JonFrum wanted to argue that it's OK to bully trans people. He just made it sound like semantics.
"The difference between sex and gender is more than semantics."
..and just what is the difference?
Well, "gender" is the difference between a word being preceded with "el" or "la" in Spanish.
"Sex" is the difference between having an X and Y chromosome, and having two X chromosomes.
In this context, sex is shorthand for "sex assigned at birth". Gender refers to whether a person is a man or a woman.
Stop with the "assigned sex at birth" bullshit.
Yet you understood exactly what was meant by it.
Yes, that the term is bullshit.
Seems to do the job. Still, you can happily get by for the rest of your life without using it. Or you can unhappily spend the rest of your life policing it. Up to you.
Must be nice belonging to the majority group in every respect.
Which group do you belong to?
Probably the same groups as you. The difference is that I acknowledge it.
What you actually wrote was sex is observable biology and gender is biological sex. But to you these are somehow different because you are lying about the definitions of the words you use or you're just stupid.
What you actually wrote was sex is observable biology and gender is biological sex.
No, he said :
Gender refers to whether a person is a man or a woman.
He is declaring that the semantic battle over the meaning of "man" and "woman" is over and the trans activists have won. Thus 'man" and "woman" refer to your gender presentation not to your biological sex.
As they no doubt do in the circles in which he moves.
Er, sex is not "assigned at birth". I'm pretty sure there's a few months of development which necessarily would have occurred before that point!
Oh there are Implications to semantics, but semantics is always one step removed from the actual discussion.
My point is more the blowing up of a minor aside into a thing. It’s a reflex when certain words come up. Gender. Undocumented. There was a time when the word gay got some people up in arms because gay is supposed to mean happy.
That’s pretty funny.
Gender just “comes up”
Sex / gender assigned at birth “just comes up”
But they don’t “just come up.”
They’re lovingly crafted new usages designed carefully for rhetorical advantage.
You notice the pushback. But pretend not to see the push.
You old commie you.
A group of people have terms of art and usages relevant to them and their health-condition-related sub-culture. Reactionaries ascend fiery heights of rage at them for daring to coin their own terms for their own use and explode whenever one of them comes into sight, which happens more than it needs to because they spend so much time raging about them and the hideous unstoppable threat they pose. Paranoid, they see a sinister guiding hand behind them. Soon, soon, trans people will be able to use their terms and usages and no-one will object! Western civilisation will fall! The End.
I support (and vote for) trans rights but I dislike the phrase personally. It's inaccurate, unwieldy, and exclusionary.
You describe it as a "term of art," which is a form of jargon. Jargon exists to exclude people from an in-group. That's not a great way to bring people onto your side. The fact that it's unwieldy just exacerbates this.
As to accuracy, let me borrow an example from fiction: In Cannery Row, Helen was assigned female at birth despite presenting as male and later identifying as male. Would you say his sex is female? Incorrect assignment is surprisingly common, especially in undeveloped countries where doctors or even midwives may not be present.
Also worth noting the phrase isn't really one adopted by trans people generally, but rather one pushed by academics, similar to "Latinx." While the particular academics are trans or trans-supportive, they should not be seen as the representatives of all trans people. Nobody elected them, and they don't usually spend a lot of time listening to your more average trans people that struggle to get and keep jobs and keep a roof overhead. Trans members of the underclass are rarely concerned with purity of terminology and just want better lives.
It doesn't bother me when you use the phrase "sex assigned at birth," but it bothers me that you think it's more important to control others' terminology than try to increase support for actual trans rights. It's no comfort to a starving person to make sure everyone uses the precise medical terminology of malnutrition while turning away people who may offer food merely because they insist on calling it "starving."
Jargon exists to exclude people from an in-group.
Does it? At least some of the time it exists because you need a label to stick on a complex concept.
Jargon and "term of art" are exclusionary by definition. There's no room on that point for debate, although I'm sure you're foolish enough to try. You really should have learned this in (checks standard curriculum) the fifth grade. Perhaps you should take up the cause of improving your local elementary schools.
'Jargon exists to exclude people from an in-group.'
It also exists amongst people who are in the out-group, the marginalised and the despised. The only people tying to control others' terminology are people who write long rationalisations for why that terminology, which is not theirs and which they completely misapprehend, is bad, actually.
"It doesn’t bother me when you use the phrase “sex assigned at birth,” "
The reason it bothers me is because it is, fundamentally, a lie. "Assigned" is an established word in English, which denotes a discretionary act. It absolutely does not mean observing and recording an objective characteristic, which is what doctors actually do at birth.
Doctors don't "assign" sex, they "observe" it, there's nothing discretionary or arbitrary about what they're doing.
Calling this 'assigning' is a deliberate effort to import the essentially arbitrary implication of the word "assign" to pretend that the doctors aren't actually noting down an objective fact, because the activists want to pretend that biological sex isn't objective.
But I don't care about that. You aren't totally wrong, although there is some discretion in intersex births from what I understand. Yet I am entirely unbothered when someone uses the phrase. I'm just carefree in that extremely specific way.
although there is some discretion in intersex births from what I understand
Except this is not "discretion." Discretion (as in assignment) connotes the right to choose to allocate something to box A or box B, which might be based on judgement, or it might be arbitrary.
A recruiting officer may have the right to choose to assign a recruit to the catering corps or the infantry, either arbitrarily or based on judgement (eg that guy has some experience in the restaurant trade, that other guy does a lot of hiking.) Once the recruiter assigns you to wherever he assigns you, you are what the recruiting guy says you are. You ARE in the catering corps, or you ARE in the infantry. If it later emerges that you would in fact perform way better in the catering corps than in the infantry, so that you are reassigned, then you're in the catering corps now. But that doesn't change the fact that you used to be in the infantry, because that's where the recruiter put you.
But no one suggests that a doctor has a right to choose to allocate a baby to the male sex or the female sex. The doc looks at your parts, assisted these days pre natally with ultrasound etc, and forms his opinion as to whether you are a girl or a boy.
And sometimes he gets it wrong in "intersex" - cases - ie cases where the secondary sexual characteristics that are available to be viewed are ambiguous or misleading. But if he concludes that you're a girl and it later emerges that you are in fact a boy, that shows that he made a mistaken judgement at your birth. It doesn't mean that he had a right to choose that you were a girl, and now a new choice has been made. You were a boy all along and the doc just made a mistake.
The expression "assigned at birth" was deliberately crafted to imply that your sex is not an objective fact but a fuzzy thing (spectrum is a voguish term) and that your sex is a matter of the discretion of the doc, not an objective fact about you that the doc may or may not accurately identify.
It's true to them, which is what matters, your puzzlement and estrangement from the term is an irrrelevance
Lol, I just responded to it, heretofore unaware that the term was deliberate propaganda. It had always struck me as an odd thing to say, because it is clearly erroneous, but I hadn't heard that it was being used intentionally and dishonestly. But, now that you mention it...I'm not surprised.
Trans is not just "the next gay".
OP has this aside: "We might add that the rule of law bars—or at least presumptively forbids—discrimination on the basis of certain morally irrelevant characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, and gender."
You: THIS IS A LOVINGLY CRAFTED MESSAGE FOR RHETORICAL ADVANTAGE.
Yeah, this is what I mean by reflex.
Have you ever noticed that everything you don't like is communism?
"Have you ever noticed that everything you don’t like is communism?"
Maybe because it is?
By the way you are still a douche.
Have you ever noticed that everything you don’t like is communism?
I was just seeing if you would bite at my semantic bait 🙂
And you did - very gratifying. To be honest I wasn't really expecting you to step into that one.
And yes, it's a reflex.
A tries a rhetorical gambit, putting lipstick on his pig
B notes it's still a pig
That's why it's "cyclical' as you put it. There would be no reaction without the action. Stop referring to your pig as a pretty girl and I'll stop mentioning that it's not a pretty girl, it's a pig.
I don't think Prof. Somin was trying to defend trans rights via a rhetorical gambit in the OP.
I think you saw gender and got into the old ritual of yelling about it. And people picked up on that ritual from the left as well.
And you all had a jolly good time being angry at each other, while writing zero new things.
It's cyclical. Prof Somin didn't start it. He's just picking up on the new usage lovingly crafted by others a little while back.
The whole point of the semantic shuffle is to introduce new usages that paint favored ideas with favorable nuances and the opposite for unfavored ideas.
Those who disagree push back. The game is won :
(a) by the new usage team as and when the usage is adopted by the general public without them realising that they're swallowing implications that they haven't thought about, or
(b) by the pusherbackers if the general public declines to adopt the new usage
The game restarts with a new new usage.
As you say, it's a cycle.
He’s just picking up on the new usage lovingly crafted by others a little while back.
You see how this is your personal corkboard and string? Creating grand epic semantic battles from you posting stimulus-response comments.
Those who disagree push back. The game is won:
It is a game for you. The main prize is your own self-righteousness. Congrats on your trophy; you are not part of any actual cultural conflict.
My God, you've suddenly noticed that language and usage changes and new phrases and usages emerge! All the time! This must be stopped!
My God, Nige just learned how to do his first insult.
Feeling like a big boy now, are you, Nige?
If I was insulting him, I'd have insulted him. That was just sarcasm. Any other basics you need educating on?
I wasn't insulting you. That was just sarcasm.
See? You CAN learn new things! Well done!
"difference between sex and gender is more than semantics"
there is no difference. At all.
That's like saying there's no difference between fact and fantasy.
He's not the only one. The UK Equalities Minister has the same problem: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/kemi-badenoch-asks-for-examples-of-bad-guidance-on-single-sex-spaces
Interesting post.
I think that two things familiar to every 1L would help illuminate the conversation.
The first, of course, is the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum crimes. The first (in se) are those crimes that are generally understood to be bad in and of themselves (murder, for example). The second are those considered to be crimes because the government has deemed them so (think of speeding). While people can argue about the boundaries of these, and whether they exist naturally or are societally created, I think that is a useful distinction that most people can grasp.
The second is the jurisprudential arguments referred to as Hart-Fuller. Essentially, they are discussing the validity (justice) of verdicts by courts using Nazi statutes*. Is morality and law separate, or not? Put another way, is there an obligation to follow an unjust, but valid law? Which really gets to the heart of the rule of law and justice (although it was argues in terms of natural law and positivism).
*It's a little more interesting, in that it was a post-WW2 West German Court giving credence to the utilization of Nazi "law". Eh, you can look it up if you care enough.
Words and their meaning are such a bitch.
Here's a list from 2020 that shows all Nazi-era laws still in force. https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/711220/68f6915e1c63bf882fd15bae5f755401/WD-3-160-20-pdf-data.pdf
From memory, until recently there was some legislation still in force that was morally at least a little dubious. (Most of the stuff on the list above is pretty technocratic.)
Apropos of nothing discussed here, here s an interesting article from The Times of IsraeI, I saw referenced in Twitter.
Bam! Kapow! When 1930s Jewish mobsters beat up Nazis in the streets of America
Michael Benson’s ‘Gangsters vs. Nazis’ tells how New York judge secretly directed mafia bosses Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel to recruit army of Jewish thugs to intimidate antisemites
By Renee Ghert-Zand 18 June 2022, 11:02 am
On second thought, this does relate to the Somin post. It describes justice though not rule of law.
There is a concept called mob justice.
It's kind of a justice without laws concept.
It's not actually a great way to get justice unless you live in a comic book.
"great way to get justice"
It was here.
"They assumed Jews were soft and would be afraid to fight back,” [last line of article[
History rhymes.
You sure love crooks. While mad at some kids for 'breaking rules' and such.
Justice is what "ought" to be. Rule of law concerns what "is" with respect to written laws.
Generally, the rule of written law is considered to be a more fair and just governmental system (relatively speaking - though by no means a perfect system), as compared to the alternative of rule by the whims of men. This is in recognition of the fallible and corrupt human nature - as Jefferson remarked, "[H]ave we found angels in the form of kings to govern [men]?"
So the rule of law is somewhat of a subcategory of justice, one of the means by which we aim at justice, even though it can be misused and turned toward evil and then conflicts with justice.
Of course, difficulty arises in adhering to any objectivity with respect to written law, i.e. the static, unchanging, objective meaning of words used in a writing. Ultimately, its administration is necessarily returned to the fallible corrupt humans. The meaning of words and complex sets of words is all too easily subject to genuine disagreement, as well as dishonest contortions and omissions - which will typically be employed in service of what the arguer views as an extremely righteous and just cause, sought with such fervor that arguer has no qualms whatsoever about departing from the "rule of law," if they even buy into that concept to begin with. To some, words are nothing but subjective and the whole project is either a hopeless thing that should be abandoned or just an environment to be cynically exploited.
But that brings us around to the fact that the meaning of "justice" is also subject to different opinions - potentially even more so, it would seem, than the meaning of particular laws. But people are quick to employ their personal opinion of justice as a God-given objective standard which must be forced on others who disagree with it. The liberty-oriented approach to this problem of minimizing the reach and use of such force, while maximizing individual liberty to govern yourself, is reflected in the other part of the Jefferson quote mentioned above - "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others?"
And yet, the idea of an external, objective standard of justice seems to be a universal human conception, and the desire to seek it a universal human impulse. Through every culture and people and time in history, there seems to be a nascent idea of right and wrong. From things that seem to be universally agreed upon, like the abuse of a child, to the particular and ever-changing expressions of moral outrage that constitute modern US politics, mankind seems to be a moral animal at the core. But how could a objective moral standard exist and whence does it derive?
Coincidentally last night, my son described a philosophy that centers each person around his own “aesthetic,” and then posited that “ethics” are a subset of that individualized aesthetic. I essentially agreed with that model, but was left with the uncomfortable implication (as you describe) that there are no inherently shared values among us.
Like what about murder? Nothing inherently wrong there?
All I could come up with is something like, “I’m against murder, and I vote. And there’s a lot of other people who would say the same thing as me.” So there’s at least a coincidence of aesthetics that allows us to successfully impose our anti-murder laws, despite those aesthetics having no inherent foundation in the universe.
I’ve conveniently held a belief that moral thinking is rooted in our survival. But what about a psychopath who disagrees, not about survival, but the emotional importance of the pleasure of the kill?
I finished my thoughts with the belief that though our aesthetics are indeed purely arbitrary, human physiology not only limits us to a relatively narrow range of preferences, but charges us up with some particularly likely ones, such as an aversion to murder, which just kind of scares the crap out of most people.
It seems we have many fears in common. That’s a foundation for law. But that, like everything, looks dubious when I look closely.
Still, I’m firmly anti-murder. Go figure.
It is often supposed that our moral beliefs are mere adaptations, or byproducts of physical evolutionary processes, in that they offered some evolutionary advantage. As you say, this would mean there is no inherent foundation or truth to any of it. But perhaps it is working, for the moment, with at least some degree of success, by coincidence. Not a very firm foundation. I'm not a philosophy guy by any stretch, but the underlying premise is "naturalism" which engenders many interesting debates, I recall finding Alvin Plantinga's argument against naturalism interesting, which is from a Christian perspective, a quick google search yielded this summary: "Plantinga argues that naturalism is self-defeating because if our cognitive faculties have evolved by naturalistic processes, they are aimed, not at truth, but at survival, and so cannot be relied on to produce true beliefs. ...But if we cannot rely on our cognitive faculties to produce true beliefs, then the belief in naturalism is itself undermined, since it has been produced by those very cognitive faculties."
First, _in your personal opinion_ "The death penalty is a hugely disproportionate punishment for the offense of jaywalking, no matter how evenly it is applied." But assume that we, the people, though our elected representatives _wanted_ the death penalty for jaywalking and, despite _your_ personal opinion, consider it just: would it not be unjust to set aside the will of the people in favor of _your_ personal opinion, Mr. Stalin?
Butler v. Perry is an excellent example: there are things -- the trinoda necessitas, as an example -- necessary for the functioning of the state, so members of the state must, by force or otherwise, provide such things. Accordingly, the three-fold tax victimizes no-one and it cannot be true that "forced labor (including forced labor for the state) is itself unjust."
While I agree that "that the rule of law is undermined by our having too many laws," just as it is by so-called civil disobedience (aka law-breaking), that point gets lost in a sea of irrelevancy.
“This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice.”
— Oliver Wendell Holmes
In any pluralistic democracy in a varied population, there will inevitably be strong differences of opinion, including strong differences about what constitutes justice. Hence it’s almost inevitable that just about everybody will regard at least some of such a society’s laws as unjust. Some may regard them as very unjust.
There will also be compromises of various kinds made that may seem absurd to strong proponents on all sides.