The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Objection: "But He Hasn't Been Convicted Of Anything"
[Note: This is the fourth in a series of essays responding to objections that have been made to enforcing Section Three of the Constitution. The first three essays can be found here, here, and here.]
Some critics have made the argument that Section Three cannot or should not be used to constitutionally disqualify a person from office for having engaged in insurrection or rebellion without that person first having been charged and convicted of the statutory federal crime of insurrection, under 18 U.S.C. §2383.
Professor Michael McConnell appears to have been the first to make this argument, in a post on this blog shortly after we first posted our draft article on SSRN in August, 2023. As McConnell put it:
Congress has enacted a statute, 18 U.S.C. §2383, which covers participation in rebellion or insurrection, and which provides that those found guilty "shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." This mode of enforcement has been enacted by the entity entrusted with responsibility to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment; it proceeds through the ordinary course of prosecution by the executive, trial by a court, decision by a jury, and appeal to appellate courts, with due process at every step. It is significant that the Department of Justice has prosecuted hundreds of persons for their involvement in the January 6 incursion at the Capitol, but has not charged anyone, including Trump, with insurrection under this or any other statute.
Others have echoed this suggestion. The Wall Street Journal in September 2023 editorialized against applying Section Three to disqualify Trump, saying that "[i]t is surely relevant that Mr. Trump hasn't been charged with insurrection under 18 U.S.C. Section 2383." Trump's brief on the merits in the Supreme Court in Trump v. Anderson asserts (pp. 38-40) that Section Three can only be enforced following a criminal conviction under 18 U.S.C. §2383. At least two amicus briefs supporting Trump make the same claim.
With all due respect, the argument is legally meritless, top to bottom. It is wrong as a matter of the text, history, and structure of Section Three. But it also is wrong on the details of §2383 itself.
Begin with Section Three. The text of Section Three nowhere contains or references any requirement of criminal-law conviction as a prerequisite to, or condition of, Section Three's operation. To read such a requirement into Section Three is to make up something that is not there. Rather, as we put it in our original article, Section Three's "disqualification, where triggered, just is." It parallels the Constitution's other qualifications for office, such as age, residency, and citizenship, none of which of course requires a criminal trial.
The history of Section Three nowhere reflects a need for criminal trials. Indeed, Section Three was enacted as an alternative to widespread prosecutions for treason or other crimes – prosecutions that were thought both practically difficult and needlessly punitive. After Section Three was enacted it immediately disqualified many former Confederate officials from holding office; none of these people was ever criminally prosecuted (let alone convicted) of the federal crime of insurrection, even though the offense was on the books at the time. Early reported state judicial cases holding former Confederate rebels disqualified from office did not require or suggest the need for prior criminal-law conviction. And even Chief Justice Chase, in Griffin's Case, who did quite wrongly suggest that only Congress could enforce Section Three, never suggested that the enforcement must take the form of criminal prosecutions and criminal trials. If this argument had been thought non-frivolous at the time, surely Chase would have been among the first to make it.
And the structure and logic of the Constitution confirms that there is no need for criminal law prosecution either. The existence of legislative power in Congress "to enforce" the Fourteenth Amendment (including through criminal law) does not mean that Section Three, or other parts of the amendment, lie dormant until Congress acts. Congress does not bring the Fourteenth Amendment to life; it has power to add its enforcement arm to the amendment's self-executing legal force, not subtract from it. Even if the criminal-law insurrection statute were believed to have been enacted as a mode of enforcement of Section Three, it is basic that such a statute cannot limit or narrow the meaning of a provision of the Constitution.
These points should be enough to end the matter, but this wrongheaded objection is so persistent, so insidiously misleading, that it is worth saying more.
In fact many of these invocations of 18 U.S.C. §2383 misunderstand §2383 itself. The federal criminal statute in question was not enacted as a device for enforcing Section Three. As we set forth in our original article (see pp. 82-84), the criminal prohibition of insurrection, now codified at 18 U.S.C. §2383, was enacted in 1862 – in the middle of the Civil War, as Section Two of the "Second Confiscation Act" – several years before the drafting of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Act made it a crime to "incite, set on foot, assist, or engage in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof" or to "give aid or comfort thereto" or to "engage in or give aid and comfort to" any "existing rebellion or insurrection." As such, the statute was certainly a precursor of some of the terms and concepts later employed in Section Three, and to that extent a useful marker in understanding the meaning of the similar terms used in Section Three. (The same is true, we argue in the article, for other provisions of the Second Confiscation Act.) As we state in the article, the Second Confiscation Act "is practically a glossary of terms used in Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment proposed by Congress just four years later." (Ms. at 82.)
But it is quite simply wrong – indeed, a rather embarrassing error of historical fact – to identify this criminal-law statute as (in McConnell's words) Congress's chosen "mode of enforcement" of Section Three, pursuant to Congress's legislative power under Section Five to enforce the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment. That would have been impossible. The provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment did not exist at the time the statute was adopted. The notion that the criminal statute punishing insurrection was designed as a "mode" of effectuating Section Three is simply ahistorical – a little like saying that Lincoln's election was attributable to his assassination.
Section Three is something Congress chose to add to the Constitution on top of the already-existing federal crime of insurrection, not the other way around. To hold a new constitutional provision hostage to a pre-existing federal statute would strangle the all-important power of constitutional amendment. The idea that Section Three requires a criminal conviction for insurrection before its constitutional rule can be applied has no legal merit whatever.
Each of the commenters, pundits, and advocates above has misunderstood or ignored these basic points.
As noted above, Professor McConnell (who has since shifted his position) was an early proponent of the theory that the federal criminal insurrection statute should be understood as Congress's chosen "mode of enforcement" of Section Three. It was not. Similarly, the brief of former attorneys general Meese, Mukasey, and Barr, professors Calabresi and Lawson, and two organizations, argues that "[t]he big problem for those advocating for the Colorado decision is that President Trump has not been convicted of violating Section 2383," which they wrongly describe as part of "the Enforcement Act of 1870." It was not; they have confused §2383 with a different criminal prohibition which was repealed in 1909 (as we explain in footnote 54 of our manuscript).
And the amicus brief of U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, Majority Leader Steve Scalise, and 177 Other Members of Congress makes the same claim in an even more emphatic, and embarrassing fashion, arguing that Section Three must not be self-executing because if it were "there would have been no reason for Congress to state expressly in §2383 that a conviction for insurrection would result in disqualification from holding certain offices. Under Baude and Paulsen's view, Section 3 would already have automatically barred such individuals from office." Not in 1862, when the criminal statute was first enacted! Again, this is like saying that there would have been no reason for Congress to enact the First Amendment to the Constitution in 1789 because modern precedents such as New York Times v. Sullivan already protected the freedom of speech.
In the Supreme Court, Trump's lawyers offer yet another variation of this argument, claiming that "Section 3 Should be Enforced Only Through Congress's Chosen Methods of Enforcement." They do not appear to deny that the Constitution itself is self-executing and can be applied by state actors. But they still argue that Congress has limited enforcement of Section Three to criminal prosecution under the statute, describing 18 U.S.C. §2383 as the "exclusive means of enforcing Section 3." But again, that is not what 18 U.S.C. §2383 was and that is not how Section Three works or has ever worked. It is an argument that even Salmon Chase did not think of, and frankly for good reason.
McConnell has, much more recently, taken a new stance. He now concedes that criminal prosecution for insurrection is not required for disqualification under Section Three: "I am not saying that conviction under 18 U.S. Code §2383 is a legal prerequisite to disqualification under Section Three," he writes. Still, McConnell argues, the absence of a federal criminal prosecution for insurrection under the statute implies that the events leading to and culminating in the assault on the Capitol of January 6, 2021 must not be an insurrection within the meaning of the Constitution either: "The best reason to be skeptical that the events of January 6 were an 'insurrection' in the legal sense is that none of the January 6 defendants have even been charged with, let alone convicted of that crime. Insurrection is a crime under 18 U.S. Code §2383, but not a single participant in the January 6 unrest has been charged with insurrection."
But once one concedes, as McConnell now does, that criminal-law prosecution and conviction are not prerequisites for applying Section Three, it is not at all clear why we should draw factual inferences from the absence of that prosecution. The operation of a legally distinct criminal-law statute under which a person might or might not be prosecuted does not define or limit the meaning of a constitutional disqualification provision that is not keyed to prosecutions or convictions under the statute. (In his amicus brief, Ilya Somin gives the example of "O.J. Simpson, who was famously acquitted of criminal charges in the murder of his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson, and Ron Goldman, but later lost a civil case filed by the victims' families." As Somin observes: "The criminal and civil cases were distinct, and the result of one did not determine that of the other.")
McConnell's argument seems to assume that federal prosecutors are so consistently aggressive in their charging decisions that if there were any chance that January 6 was an insurrection under any definition they would have brought charges under §2383. But the truth is that §2383 is very rarely charged under any circumstances, that prosecutors have complex motivations especially in high-profile cases, and that criminal trials are not the same as civil-law disqualifications from office. In any event, the meaning of the Constitution is to be determined by objective interpretation of the Constitution's text, history, and structure, not by deferring to the charging decisions of 21st-century criminal prosecutors.
Whether the events of January 6, 2021 were an insurrection, and whether Donald Trump engaged in that insurrection, are serious questions of constitutional law – questions that we addressed in our original article, and that were addressed in a five-day trial in Colorado as well as a lengthy opinion on appeal. But it belittles and misunderstands the Constitution to think that only a federal prosecutor and criminal jury can answer such questions. And it is simply a historical fabrication to suggest that Congress or the Constitution has ever made a criminal prosecution a condition for enforcing the Constitution.
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Well, I'm sure that Kazinski will stop talking about section 5 now.
Heh, not a chance, I'm a little busy this morning, so I don't have a lot of time, but I'll just note that Baude seems to want Trump disqualified so much he can taste it, and its leaving a bad taste.
He has a lot of counter assertions, sometimes countering what no one has claimed, but all of it seems to be based on a theme of "they're wrong and I am right" without any other authority than his word.
He even overstates other's positions to refute it:
"And even Chief Justice Chase, in Griffin's Case, who did quite wrongly suggest that only Congress could enforce Section Three, never suggested that the enforcement must take the form of criminal prosecutions and criminal trials."
Chase said Congress had to act to give Section 3 force, and when Congress acted with the Enforcement Act of 1870, which was both civil and criminal he never expressed any reservations that the criminal part was not within Congress' discretion.
Section 5 leaves it up to Congress to decide whether Section 3 is criminally or civilly enforced, and the current mode is criminal.
Baude also relies on Ilya's somewhat absurd OJ example as authority, OJ was sued for monetary damages even though he was acquitted of murder, he wasn't sued to remove his voting rights for committing a felony. Trump has been sued by a number of people who assert injuries on Jan. 6th, none of the briefs Baude is countering claim that Trump is immune from civil suit for his actions that day because he hasn't been charged criminally, although of course there may be other reasons to dismiss the suit such as the first amendment.
1. Why would Chase have commented at all on a statute that was enacted after the case he was deciding was over?
2. The Enforcement Act plainly didn’t require a criminal conviction to trigger a disqualification, which is kind of the entire point.
And you’re accusing Profs. Baude and Paulsen of ipse dixit…. Do you have anything to offer at all in response to their evidence that § 2383 isn’t Congress’s enforcement mechanism for disqualification?
What "evidence"?
And:
"Why would Chase have commented at all on a statute that was enacted after the case he was deciding was over?"
Chase was on the Supreme Court until 1873 and still rode circuit in Virginia, are you going to try to assert Griffin was the only opportunity he had to express an opinion on Section 3 enforcement?
Likely he got dozens of appeals related to the Enforcement Act of 1870. If he had any objection it would certainly be on the record.
Like whose?
That's what passes for evidence? It certainly is an assertion, but without evidence:
"the criminal prohibition of insurrection, now codified at 18 U.S.C. §2383, was enacted in 1862 – in the middle of the Civil War, as Section Two of the “Second Confiscation Act” – several years before the drafting of the Fourteenth Amendment."
Here is my reading of what happened which actually relies, at least partially on facts:
Chase voided the 1862 act in Griffin (fact), so Congress passed the Enforcement Act of 1870 to enforce the 14th Amendment Civilly and Criminally (fact), the 1870 was used successfully for dozens of disqualifications and prosecutions (I only have Baude and Paulson's word for that, but lets go with it), long after the 1870 act had outrun its usefulness because of amnesties pardons and the course of time, Congress in 1948 repealed the 1870 act, and passed the current statute which rewrote and updated the 1862 act (fact).
McConnell is absolutely correct that 18 U.S.C. §2383 was "Congress’s chosen “mode of enforcement” in 1948.
Now as to why Congress in 1948 revived the the criminal penalties for insurrection itself with disqualification I can only speculate that its because any threat of insurrection in 1948 was likely to come from domestic communists, and was prospective, not retrospective.
Incorrect.
Ok, and I concede he judge wasn't charged under the 1862 act, or anything else for that matter, so it wasn't a subject for a decision.
What Chase did say in Griffin is that Congress had to pass legislation to enforce Section 3, that is certainly all I need for purposes of my argument.
Kazinski: What “evidence”?
Wow! Time's arrow not persuasive? Reverse causality is real?
Science fiction fans can be hard to convince.
See my 6:19ET post for the correct timeline which Baude and Paulson ommitted.
The timeline you've already admitted was wrong from your first "fact". Your "facts" aren't facts.
Your argument, even assuming the 1870 Enforcement Act was to enforce Section 3 via Section 5 still doesn't address the fact that the 14th Amendment has generally been considered self-executing such that Congress can provide additional protections and/or additional/alternative procedures to enforce its protections, but the 14th Amendment has power all its own even without (and even with) action by Congress. Hence, Brown, Loving, and a whole host of decisions enforcing the 14A without the need of a congressionally authorized mechanism for enforcement (and, no, a general statute providing for jurisdiction over constitutional questions generally is not an enforcement mechanism for the 14A, or if it is, then that applies equally to Section 3 as to the rest of the 14A.).
(I know, you've written a proposed amicus brief on this, but objections to that have been noted elsewhere. At the end, you are still left with the fact that the 14A has always been understood as self-executing and there is no actual textual evidence Section 5 means something different vis a vis Section 3 than it means vis a vis the rest of the 14A.)
However, not that I've opined again, I am mostly done explaining my take on Section 5 until Wednesday night.
Unlike most of the debates we have on legal and constitutional issues here, we should at least have a good idea of which way the wind is blowing by then, and oral arguments and the Justices questions to consider.
And then I expect a per curiam opinion with perhaps a couple of justices writing separately within a week or two. The drafts are probably already far along.
Not that that will settle the discussion here, we still have people debating Wickard v Filburn, Sullivan, Roe, Bush v Gore, Heller, Bruen, Women's Health, etc., almost daily.
Historical laymen, including lawyers and judges, commonly make the mistake to attribute significance backward in time, so that things which happened later take on causative or explanatory significance with respect to events which happened earlier. To do that makes no more sense than science fiction time travel, but it happens a lot. Scalia did it in Heller. Volokh has done it in his arguments to insist the Constitution does not protect an institutional press.
Lathrop commonly makes the mistake of confusing the notion of causality — which is of course constrained by the directional arrow of time — with the notion of explanation. Things that were said in 2005 cannot have caused things that were done in 2000, but things that were said in 2005 can provide information about what people were thinking in 2005, which is very likely illuminating about what people were thinking in 2000.
Nieporent still has not figured out that historical reasoning works differently than presentism.
Here it is in a nutshell, Nieporent. Present-time occurrences happen contingently. Things that happen now can affect other things which happen now. The future works the same, only more so. Things which happen now, or things which happen later, can exert contingent influence on the future.
Present minded people—which includes nearly everyone not trained in academic history—thus rely on contingent thinking reflexively. It becomes second-nature to apply that style to everything. And with regard to the present and the future, to do that skillfully can prove highly advantageous. It can make speculators in financial markets rich, for instance.
But when thinkers apply that contingent-thinking style unreflectively to the past, it becomes an intellectual vice termed, "presentism." It is a vice, because no valid conjectural conclusions about the past can ever be delivered. That is because everything in the past has already happened. Thus, none of it is ever, anymore, subject to conjectural influence.
Because of that, conjectural thinking about the past can play only one legitimate role. It is useful to support assessment of the past—as an intermediate, present-minded tool used by a historian to pick or choose a topic to research.
Other than that, there is no room for conjectural thinking about the past. A historian can reason in various ways about the past, but none of the conjectural ways lead to historically worthwhile results until conjecture gets stripped out of them by research results.
The past is thus different than the present and the future. There is no valid conjectural thinking about the past. Thinking conjecturally about the present and the future remains reasonable, useful and, alas, a bit too habitual when attention turns to the past.
Thus Nieporent:
Things that were said in 2005 cannot have caused things that were done in 2000, but things that were said in 2005 can provide information about what people were thinking in 2005, which is very likely illuminating about what people were thinking in 2000.
The unacceptable conjecture? The backward-looking "very likely," part. Nieporet is mistaken about that. What was said in 2005 about 2000 only has power to illuminate one subject: what people were thinking in 2005 about what happened in 2000. There is an entire field of history devoted to that insight. It is called intellectual history. It traces the evolution of ideas through time.
What Nieporent said was, "very likely," thus remains a present-minded conjecture. In historical context, he has posited a research effort to underpin his habitual conjecture with evidence, which may or may not turn up.
Historical practice earns whatever respect and and deference it deserves precisely to the extent that it excludes present-minded conjecture, and replaces it instead with evidence. And on a broader scale, it earns still more respect when it can legitimately construct inferences arrived at by making evidentiary facts critique each other. That is not a practice a present-minded non-historian should attempt at home.
That is a lot of words to say "Hurr, durr."
Nieporent, with you it takes more words. There is more you don’t understand. You have seen enough, I will boil it down in two steps:
Step 1
Like counterfactual thinking, contingent thinking about the past is useless. Everything in the past has already happened. None of it is subject to contingent possibilities.
That makes thinking about the past categorically different than thinking about the present, or about the future. In those latter instances contingency delivers real influence. That can never happen in the past.
Therefore, two sets of rules are necessary to distinguish two modes of legitimate reasoning—one set applies to the past, and another set applies to the present and future. The rules for the past must include: “No contingent reasoning, ever.” Thus, in thinking about the past, notions such as causality, change, and influence must either be supported by evidence, or be treated as suspect.
For the present and future, to begin with a factual premise, and reason contingently toward a conclusion remains fine, even indispensable—but only until conjectures about causality, change, and influence recede into the past, when the test of evidence can be applied, and erstwhile contingent premises either proved or disproved.
Step 2
Another way to say it, in super-compact form, might be this:
In history, all the experiments are over with, and it is time to analyze the results, to prove or disprove the contingent speculations.
But this two-step process is unusual; it features a third step:
Step 3
Unlike scientific rationalism, historical contingent speculations are so seldom generalizable that to create historically a test of contingent speculations is a bootless task. Scientists are free to isolate variables, which makes them testable. Historians enjoy no such power over their materials. Thus, to deliver a reliable test of historical variables is so rarely possible that to attempt it suggests historical malpractice.
Do not expect historians to deliver you reliably tested principles of notions such as causality, change, and influence. The best you can hope for is cautious proofs of such notions—narrow proofs which apply only to a specific historical case under consideration.
Thus endeth the attempted distillation. If you suspect the distillery is out of order, I can only insist that you have little notion of the quantity of raw materials it began with.
By the way, if you have not yet noticed challenging implications for the notion of legal originalism, then I am not yet making myself clear.
I will just continue to point out, this whole thing is premised on the notion that consequential arguments have no place in constitutional law and that even if you think disenfranchising 70-80 million people would result in the complete destruction of the country, we must nonetheless do it.
I agree the argument about criminal trials isn't great as a textual argument. However, SCOTUS has enormous powers to make federal common law on issues of federal jurisdiction. It can literally impose any process requirement it wants to. If the justices feel that imposing a process requirement will help save the country, that's good enough reason to do it.
The mewling of a coward who would sacrifice the rule of law to the threat of domestic terrorism is irrelevant.
Yours is the attitude which allows cartels to take over countries and for people to become subservient to fear and intimidation.
Grow some testicles.
The rule of law includes the pragmatic considerations that I am expressing.
The notion that the law is a formal system of symbolic logic that admits of no policy considerations is not "the rule of law"-- it's a silly position that no legal system has ever actually adopted.
14/3 is solid from a policy perspective also. Allowing someone to hold office after they have violated their oath is nuts.
Lots of people have held office after violating various oaths. The Republic did not fall.
When the president spearheads and attempted coup, it is good policy to make sure they never hold office again.
When that has actually happened, we might need such a policy. It hasn't happened yet.
You do know that playing dumb regarding Trump's attempted coup has gotten stale.
And what exactly did you expect from Mr. Bellmore?
...but of course there was no insurrection.
You know that the word "coup" has a meaning, right? You can't just call anything you dislike a "coup", and expect to be taken seriously.
For that matter, "spearheading" has a meaning, too.
Literally, there was no "coup", no attempt to violently seize control of the government, and Trump did not spearhead such an attempt.
A ruling was issued on May 17th, 1954 where the Supreme Court could have ignored what the law required, in favor of the 'pragmatic concern' about the potential violent consequences.
They instead issued Brown v. Board of Education and applied the law faithfully, knowing that the real 'pragmatic concern' was allowing the threat of defiance or widespread violence to usurp the desire to live in a nation of laws and justice.
Good men do not bend the knee to the threat of evil.
No, I think its up to the legislative branch and to some extent the executive branch to take those practical considerations into effect.
Should a court acquiesce to an unjustified guilty verdict to assuage public opinion?
I don't think anyone would argue that, what you are arguing isn't much different than that.
Besides not only are there 75 million voters that are eager to vote for Trump, there are probably another 75 million who don't want him on the ballot.
Apply the law without fear or favor is the best rule.
Saving the country is a bit more than pandering to domestic terrorists.
Not pandering to domestic terrorists is saving the country.
Keeping an ineligible person off the ballot does not disenfranchise anyone.
You guys love to say this, but I assure you that if someone prevented you from voting for YOUR candidate for President, you wouldn't say "I wasn't disenfranchised, my candidate was just ineligible, guess it sucks to be me".
Indeed, many countries have "elections" where major party candidates are disqualified, such as Iran and Russia. Do you consider those countries to be honoring the franchise.
This is one of those things people say that I assume they know to be a lie. Because people can't be so dumb as to believe that if you take away the preferred choice for the most important office, of 70-80 million Americans you aren't taking away their vote.
'if you take away the preferred choice for the most important office, of 70-80 million American'
It's funny how people saw Trump try to do exactly this thing and are yet willing to vote for him again. None of them seem to care about what the millions of Americans he tried to disenfranchise think.
The fact that Trump tried to override a presidential election (and also that there were so many riots in response to Biden's victory) is a reminder of how fragile things are. It's not a reason to say "let's just have some judges take the vote away from 70-80 million people"; it is, indeed, a reason to do precisely the opposite and try not to do more stuff that would cause a great deal of unrest in the country.
'and also that there were so many riots in response to Biden’s victory'
Pretty sure the most ardent Trump hater would be obliged to admit there was only the one.
Things are so fragile the guy who tried to illegally steal the election must be given another chance to steal an election to millify the people who support the election stealer, while ignoring the concerns of the people who he tried to disenfranchise.
Esper, nobody has proposed disfranchising millions. That is bullshit. You are not disfranchised if you remain eligible to vote for any qualified candidate anyone else can vote for.
Some famous statesman once remarked, "The cemeteries are full of indispensable men." That is on point here. The point of Section 3 is in large part that no one has legitimate claim to be indispensable. And thus it is not a thing of notable consequence to substitute for one would-be candidate who has disqualified himself, an essentially limitless field of others who remain qualified.
There is no right to office. The sovereign People bestow their gift of office at pleasure, and without constraint. More than a century and a half ago, the sovereign People announced that it is their pleasure that candidates who do what Trump has done be disqualified. You propose to constrain the People, and demand that government, by agency of the Supreme Court, do it.
That would turn American constitutionalism upside down, and open a contest for sovereignty. The People would be targeted for replacement by ambitious government figures who want sovereignty for themselves. Trump, for instance.
No thanks. A sovereign government is an untrustworthy master and an unwise idea. The American People invented joint popular sovereignty to improve on it. While the People remain sovereign, your fears are unjustified. Millions have not been disfranchised. You remain free to pick among millions.
"You're not disenfranchised, you can still vote."
"Just only for candidates WE approve of."
Such as those of a particular age and nationality.
You're acting as if there is no controversy surrounding the events of January 6th. In reality, it is a multi-layered question, each more controversial than the last.
1) Was January 6th an insurrection under 14A?
2) If yes, did Trump participate in it?
3) If yes, is 14A Sec 3 self-executing?
There is legitimate debate surrounding all of these questions. You can't just say you've made up your mind and nobody else gets to decide for themselves.
Well said. Whether or not someone is 35 or older is generally without dispute. Being a natural born citizen, can be less so.
I suspect that many of the anti-Trumpers in these comments wouldn't have been cool with a Republican official in a swing state determining, on their own, that Obama's birth certificate was fake, and therefore that he was ineligible.
Yes, we are debating it. Havent you noticed? The debate never stops. It’s like something out of Sartre. ‘Hell is debating whether Trump is an insurrectionist with other people. Forever’
It’s not so much the debate, which is well-worn at this point, but how anyone, confronted with the bare facts, could, with a straight face, claim to support Trump AND democracy.
'wouldn’t have been cool'
If we worried about all the stupid shit Republican officials are capable of, we wouldn't get anything done.
Well, put. All the more reason to follow the statute passed by Congress as per Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment and have an actual criminal trial following to determine the answer to each of these questions.
Those are all very fair questions for a public official to consider in deciding whether or not Trump is disqualified. “Even if the answer to all of those questions is yes, should we let him qualify anyway because it might make people angry if we don’t” is not a fair question.
Esper, nobody has proposed disfranchising millions. That is bullshit. You are not disfranchised if you remain eligible to vote for any qualified candidate anyone else can vote for.
Again, this is an argument you would literally never accept if it was your candidate declared ineligible.
This is just bad faith argumentation. People really don't want to admit what they are doing, and that is a very good sign that they are up to no good.
I cannot imagine being so vested in "my candidate" (or my anything else, except maybe my spouse) that I would deny such strong evidence of wrongdoing in the way you seem to think natural. I supported Gary Hart, Bill Clinton and John Edwards strongly, but discovering that they had unacceptable issues far short of insurrection, I promptly abandoned each. I would be pissed off about disenfranchisement if this sort of thing were sprung at the last minute, but it hasn't been; the problem is that Republicans have been almost unanimously too cowardly to address this problem. As usual, they want their problem solved in a way that they can blame Democrats for.
I favor putting Trump on the ballot (if he can win an election, this country deserves the destruction it will suffer), but not in a way that denies what he has done.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
Indeed. And in my view it's high time for a change of pace from the last few years of "good and hard" we've gotten based on what a bunch of other people knew they wanted.
If we're going to be destroyed by a second Donald Trump term, at least let it be that the majority of voters chose that end. Honestly, if we're going to be destroyed, I'd prefer the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man if not a giant Slor.
A majority of voters have never chosen Trump, we're told over and over again the majority is irrelevant, actually.
The non-popular-vote-winner presidents of my lifetime have both been very bad and harmed but did not manage to destroy the country. I think requiring a majority to destroy the country is not asking too much.
"I cannot imagine being so vested in “my candidate” (or my anything else, except maybe my spouse) that I would deny such strong evidence of wrongdoing in the way you seem to think natural."
The problem is that you're so anti-vested in Trump, that you're committed to seeing strong evidence of wrongdoing where people who aren't so committed just see an ordinary riot.
Actual evidence persuades people who genuinely NEEDED persuading. That's been the problem with the case against Trump all along: It persuades virtually nobody who didn't start out hating the guy, and even fails to persuade some people who did.
It persuaded plenty of Trump elected supporters for a few days after Jan 6. But then, cowardice over losing office took over. See Kevin McCarthy's reactions for example.
Just like a gay man isn't prohibited from getting married just because he wasn't allowed to choose another man as his spouse.
Lathrop's arguments about sovereignty are dumb, but this one makes even less sense, since he gets his own arguments backwards. Trump being disqualified constitutes the government constraining the (so-called sovereign) people, not vice versa. It involves the government telling the people who they can vote for, not the people telling the government anything.
No, he’s right. The people put 14/3 there. The government would be thwarting the will of the people were it to choose to ignore the Amendment.
The escape valve for cases like this is built -- by the nineteenth century people -- into the Amendment. Congress can restore Trump’s eligibility with a simple vote, if that’s what the current people want.
No, he's wrong on both ends of that. The government, not the people, put 14/3 there.
And the government would be thwarting the will of the current people — not people who died 130 years ago — were it to prevent Trump from getting elected even though the majority of people today wanted him elected.
Now, I think that's fine, but Lathrop's own philosophy forbids it.
Dilan,
Did Trump try to steal the election? If so, do you think that was a High Crime worthy of impeachment, conviction and disqualification by Congress even though it had the consequence of removing from consideration the choice of 70 million Americans?
Do you really not see the difference between a trial before a jury (the Senate acts as a jury) of 100 and a "trial" by 5 Democrat party judges?
I think Barack Obama was a better president than anyone currently running for the office. But I don't feel "disenfranchised" because I am unable to vote for him.
I don't do drugs, but I'll make an exception for whatever you're smoking.
Would you have felt the same way if the Supreme Court had ruled him ineligible in 2008 due to the birther stuff?
A conspiracy theory that never had any consistent evidence, versus all the evidence against Trump? If Democrats had ignored the same volume of evidence against Obama from 2005 on, with an actual trial concluding he was not eligible in 2007, then they would not have chosen Obama as their nominee; without that, it was a pretty close primary race between Obama and Clinton.
You might as well claim that all the 2008 Clinton supporters and the 2016 Bernie supporters were disenfranchised.
A lot of Democrats felt the 2000 election was in effect "stolen" by the Supreme Court, but there were no riots about it.
There were far fewer tinder-box riots about lots of things 20+ years ago. The apples-to-apples comparison is how that sort of thing would go over in this day and age.
Trump tried to steal the election illegally. The only riot was trying to help him do it.
That's obviously not true. The Rodney King riots were in 1991, they were just as bad, if not worse than the George Floyd riots. But the 2020 riots did last longer mainly because they got a more encouragement from local and state officials, when the 1991 riots were suppressed as soon as they had manpower enough.
And don't forget the mid-60's Watts and Detroit and Newark riots almost 30 years before that.
There were no riots around the 2000 election because white liberals, Gore's primary adherents are pussies.
You want to think again, Kazinski?
Peacefully accepting the results of an election, or a court case, does not make one a pussy, but rather a law-abiding citizen.
Are you seriously suggesting that "real men" who lose a close election should riot?
I'm not claiming any of the riots were justified or composed of law abiding citizens.
I'm just making an observation, that there weren't 2000 election riots because there was no riot culture then.
There weren’t any riots after Trump and his supporters tried to illegally steal the election in 2020, either.
If it were affirming the result of a 5-day trial that considered evidence and unanimous conclusions of a bipartisan House committee? I think most Democrats would have accepted that.
In principle though I agree that SCOTUS should bend the Constitution rather than follow it if the stakes are high enough because it is too difficult to fix. Maybe this can be the case that convinces the conservative Court to firmly establish that rule, clearing the path to defang the Second Amendment.
"and unanimous conclusions of a bipartisan House committee?"
Look, can we stop repeating that damned lie? There was no bipartisan House committee. There was a committee all of whose members were chosen by the Democrats. An action unprecedented in 230 years.
Which means it was not, in any meaningful sense, bipartisan.
Donald Trump had every opportunity to present evidence to the District Court to dispute or contradict the House Committee report. He could have testified himself, but he elected not to (as is his right).
Trump's SCOTUS brief doesn't completely ignore the House Committee report, but it makes scant mention thereof. https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/298125/20240118171750343_Trump%20v%20Anderson%20Petitioner%20Brief%20on%20the%20Merits.pdf
The committee had members of both parties and so, by any dictionary, was bipartisan.
In 2005 Nancy Pelosi derided as a “sham” a planned special committee to investigate the response to Katrina and refused to participate. The committee went ahead with only Republican members all chosen by Dennis Hastert, so the precedent you are searching for is 19 years ago not 230.
Republicans had the opportunity in 2021 to avoid the risk of partisanship in a congressional committee entirely by supporting a House bill to establish an independent commission, but Mitch McConnell killed it in the Senate.
.
I’ve been prevented from voting for my preferred candidate in every single presidential election of my lifetime, because my preferred candidate lost the primary. I did indeed suck it up, because I’m an adult who understands that’s how the system works.
"You guys love to say this, but I assure you that if someone prevented you from voting for YOUR candidate for President, you wouldn’t say “I wasn’t disenfranchised, my candidate was just ineligible, guess it sucks to be me”."
As I know myself better than you ever will, allow me to assuage your concerns:
I trust that the judiciary is equipped to handle the issue, and believe that if any State process results in a final determination that someone had engaged in insurrection, that there is likely a better choice for President to be had anyway. I would also be fine if my legislature decided upon a different way to appoint our Electors.
You'll be shocked to know that many people aren't nearly as partisan as you and others are. I've voted for both Republicans and Democrats. It's possible there was even a Libertarian in there at some point.
Try it sometime.
I assure you that if someone prevented you from voting for YOUR candidate for President, you wouldn’t say “I wasn’t disenfranchised, my candidate was just ineligible, guess it sucks to be me”.
I mean... yeah, we really would. It's hard to imagine us wanting to vote for an insurrectionist -- that's the really bizarre bit of this whole thing -- but Obama is a good example. If the evidence showed and a competent court found that he really was born in Kenya, we wouldn't have demanded to be able to vote for him anyway or else "set the country ablaze." That's the behavior of retarded children.
Talk about fighting the hypothetical. "I would agree with the ruling if I agreed with it" doesn't really say anything.
Now answer based on a finding by a court 1) you don't consider to be "competent" due to political bias or similar; and/or 2) based on its interpretation of evidence you don't consider to clearly show any such thing.
Yeah. That happened in 2000. We didn’t “set the country ablaze.”
But anyway, that’s part of the point. MAGA’s not going to believe any evidence or any court. The Democrats are still interested in the actual truth, and would be completely willing — as has been demonstrated time and time again — to accept the findings of a court.
Take this very case. If SCOTUS decides he's eligible -- which they almost certainly will -- we'll accept that. We're not threating domestic terrorism if an obviously corrupt and partisan court rules against us.
> but I assure you that if someone prevented you from voting for YOUR candidate for President, you wouldn’t say “I wasn’t disenfranchised, my candidate was just ineligible, guess it sucks to be me”
My preferred candidate is Barack Obama. He received 66 million votes in 2012.
Does the Constitution have a say in this matter? Or do you think it should disenfranchise 66 million votes?
Now it's the "complete destruction of the country" which is at stake!
None of you keyboard warriors is going to do anything. The 2020 election was STOLEN*, and all you did was half-heartedly and un-armedly trespass in the Captol on one day in 2021.
As a threat, it's a flaccid one. As an argument for the Supreme Court enforcing a "living Constitution", it's a dead one.
* Which is clearly nonsense, but you really believe it.
I'm saying that the logic of the position being argued is that it doesn't matter if it would destroy the country. We are COMPELLED to adopt this very contested view of an obscure constitutional provision and you know what, we can't even enact any protective common law rules. We MUST do exactly what these guys are saying or we are just a bunch of lawbreakers.
Congress can put him back on the ballot if it really is such a misapplication of justice that threatens to destroy the country. Easy peasy.
Anyway, I'm calling your bluff. If America is so easily destroyed, then it's going to fall apart no matter what happens to Trump. Personally I think it's not that fragile. MAGA's just a bunch of tantrumy children. Why would we want to encourage that behavior?
As someone who is a bit consequentialist myself, albeit with a somewhat more moderated take on this one than you, I think insisting that everyone make that kind of argument is not right.
People who are good at the law's lay of the land are not failing to provide value if they say 'this is what the law demands' without gaming out the practical upshot. The Court is no doubt aware and can do that as much or as little as they like.
Frankly, given where the law is, I do not envy their position.
No I think if you read Baude and Paulsen in toto, they are absolutely trying to rule off the island any consequentialist arguments.
And that's just an absolutely awful way to do constitutional law. They have the burden of proof here. They need to articulate in clear terms exactly why we can be absolutely sure that there will be no threat to peace if their position is adopted. Otherwise, well, we should think about things like common law rulemaking on process issues to ensure that a bad result doesn't happen.
No, the adherents of a particular constitutional interpretation don’t have a burden to prove that it won’t upset people. And no, courts shouldn’t use “common law rulemaking” to ignore parts of the constitution that require a result that (they think) people won’t like.
Or you know, why don't we just threaten violence to get our way on the Second Amendment, for instance?
This seems like a great way to do constitutional law. Interpret it my way or I'll shoot you.
And no, courts shouldn’t use “common law rulemaking” to ignore parts of the constitution that require a result that (they think) people won’t like.
Common law rulemaking is part of the Constitution. It's in Article III (and directly mentioned in the Seventh Amendment). It's amazing how you guys make up a different document and say that's what we have to follow.
We know all about common law rulemaking. It's given us such wonders as Qualified Immunity.
Noscitur said shouldn't, not can't. "Courts shouldn’t use “common law rulemaking” to ignore parts of the constitution..."
Which is true. You're deep into Living Constitutionalism if you think courts should replace the parts of the constitition that they find inconvenient with common law rules.
To be sure, Pauslen (at least) has spent nearly his entire career making the argument that we have to follow the Constitution without regard for the consequences. This is kind of his thing.
The gap between you and him is definitely difficult to bridge as a result, but it's not like this is simply an assumed premise. Consider, for example, his 2014 book review "The Text, The Whole Text, and Nothing but the Text, So Help Me God," which is pretty much what it says on the tin.
FWIW, if my preferred presidential candidate were disqualified, I would not call myself disenfranchised. We live in a republic. Rules are rules. I accept that. (I *briefly* thought John McCain, whom I preferred to Obama, was disqualified because of his birthplace, so I am not *simply* imagining myself a hero.) I recognize that you may not believe me, and that, even if you do believe me, many other people will not, but there are those of us who really don't think our franchise is defined by our power to vote for our preferred candidate.
That seems doubly true in this age of negative polarization. You say several times that Trump is the "preferred candidate" of 70-80 million people, but that patently isn't the case: a substantial, albeit doomed, minority of the Republican Party wants someone else, and there's a vast cloud of independents who despise Trump but will vote for him anyway to stop Biden. (Much of my family, for example.) Given the profound unpopularity of both candidates, there's no way Trump is the preferred candidate of more than 45 million voters, and probably a good deal fewer. Lots of presumptive Trump voters would breathe a sigh of relief to be "disenfranchised" in this particular way!
There’s a vast cloud of independents who despise Trump but will vote for him anyway to stop Biden. (Much of my family, for example.)
Stop Biden from what, exactly? Culture war stuff? Immigration?
"But once one concedes, as McConnell now does, that criminal-law prosecution and conviction are not prerequisites for applying Section Three, it is not at all clear why we should draw factual inferences from the absence of that prosecution. "
"McConnell's argument seems to assume that federal prosecutors are so consistently aggressive in their charging decisions that if there were any chance that January 6 was an insurrection under any definition they would have brought charges under §2383."
Oh, give me a break, at this point you're just being stubbornly oblivious. It's almost impossible to look at the January 6th prosecutions and NOT see consistently aggressive charging decisions. They're going after people who didn't even enter the building!
What the failure to charge ANYONE with insurrection, for more than 3 years, indicates, is that it's only being called an 'insurrection' to have an excuse to invoke Section 3. For all other purposes, they've avoided that label, presumably because they don't think they could make it stick.
I actually thought former AG Barr called this one a long time ago. To remove someone's privilege like that, you need a formal, legal adversarial process to do it. Like a trial, with discovery, witnesses, cross examination on a specific charge of insurrection. Hasn't happened yet.
This makes sense, and I think a majority of people probably feel the same way.
The professor insults the collective intelligence of the American people pretending it is just A-Ok to just hand-wave away privileges and rights. Does anyone seriously think people like Baude will just stop at removing simply ballot access for disfavored candidates?
This adds nothing to what was done in Colorado except to require conviction, which is precisely answered in the post, and it is only because it's Trump -- nobody cared about that county official in New Mexico.
"Disfavored candidate" is different from "insurrectionist who broke his oath".
Precisely answered?
No. It was asserted without evidence.
More evidence than you put in that comment.
"To remove someone’s privilege like that, you need a formal, legal adversarial process to do it. Like a trial, with discovery, witnesses, cross examination on a specific charge of insurrection. Hasn’t happened yet."
Au contraire. Donald Trump has had beaucoup due process in the courts of Colorado. The 105 page verified petition filed against the Secretary of State gave detailed notice to Trump and the world of what facts and legal theories the six petitioners relied upon. Trump was granted leave to intervene at the outset of the lawsuit. Trump had ample opportunity to conduct pretrial discovery. The Respondents’ Supreme Court brief recites at footnote 3:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/298854/20240126115645084_23-719%20Anderson%20Respondents%20Merits%20Brief.pdf
Trump was represented at all stages in the Colorado courts by legal counsel, including a former Colorado Secretary of State. The District Court conducted a five day bench trial, with equal time allotted to each side for presentation of proof. Trump’s lawyers cross-examined the petitioners’ witnesses and presented witnesses on Trump’s behalf. Trump had the opportunity to testify himself, which he elected not to do. Both sides presented proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law to the trial court.
The District Court issued a detailed, 102 page final order. That order, along with various pretrial orders, appears to have addressed every issue raised by either party. The Supreme Court of Colorado granted discretionary review. Trump’s counsel submitted a brief on appeal and participated in oral argument. The Court issued a comprehensive per curiam opinion reversing the District Court, accompanied by the dissenting opinions of three justices.
SCOTUS granted certiorari pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1257(a) and ordered full briefing. Oral argument will be held later this week. FWIW, Donald Trump’s SCOTUS brief makes no complaint that the Colorado courts denied him procedural due process.
What additional process do you contend was due, Commenter XY?
NG, if you think a 5-day bench kangaroo trial does it...uh, no.
No shortcuts.
What additional process do you contend was due? Donald Trump's SCOTUS brief doesn't complain of any lack of procedural due process. https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/298125/20240118171750343_Trump%20v%20Anderson%20Petitioner%20Brief%20on%20the%20Merits.pdf He made no proffer in the State court of how substitute or additional procedural safeguards would have inured to his benefit. He didn't avail himself of the pretrial discovery opportunities he was afforded. He didn't use the full amount of trial time he was allotted. He identified no witness(es) that he was prevented from calling nor any proffer as to what facts he believed he could have elicited from absent witnesses.
NG, you know that I think the world of you, and your legal acumen. I ask you lots of questions, and you really do answer them straight up. I really do appreciate that.
I have to tell you, when I think of an adversarial legal process replete with discovery, cross examination, witnesses, and a jury...I am thinking of prosecution by the DOJ in a Federal court for something called 'Insurrection'. That to me, is the process. NG, I can tell you that CO ain't it; it made mockery of the legal process. This entire episode is not good for the country.
If you want to call POTUS Trump an insurrectionist and then remove him from the ballot, something more than legal sophistry is required. Most people see it that way generally, I think. If you want to remove a persons privileges or rights, then do it the right way. No shortcuts. You don't just get to hand wave away someone's rights and privileges. Or property.
Hopefully, the SCOTUS will not keep us all in suspense very long and we will have an answer.
What does a legal 'kick in the shins' from SCOTUS look like?
"That to me, is the process. NG, I can tell you that CO ain’t it; it made mockery of the legal process."
You weren't complaining about the 'legal process' when the court originally ruled in his favor.
Your only real complaint here is that Trump might lose now, and you're too much of a cowardly bitch to admit your motivations behind your pathetic reasoning.
A “kangaroo trial” that he won. People forget, he won in the trial court. So, even assuming he was denied due process (he wasn’t), he was still able to pull off a win.
It was a kangaroo trial where the trial judge made a point of doing everything but pulling the trigger, so that the state supreme court could deal with the fallout for doing that last little bit.
Um, okay. There’s no evidence of that. What we do know is that he won the trial. If this were some rogue judge, she would have just done the job fully expecting to get overturned. But she didn’t…after a trial…in which Trump was afforded full due process.
And if I’m ever in legal trouble, I want Trump’s lawyers, who can apparently win a trial without any due process whatsoever. That’s pretty bad ass. Most of the time when someone isn’t given any due process, they lose. But not Trump, apparently. It must be because he’s such a winner.
He "won the trial" on the basis that A14S3 didn't apply to him. As we've oft discussed and I really don't think is disputed, she wouldn't have preceded that handful of pages with hundreds of paragraphs of scorched-earth factual findings totally irrelevant to her ultimate holding were she not fully expecting to get overturned.
I almost always prefer courts to say, “I’m going to assume X is true here because it doesn’t matter as I’m finding Y to resolve this situation.” But in my experience they don’t always do that. It doesn’t necessarily mean they have some kind of agenda.
And, even assuming this judge did have an agenda, it doesn’t matter BECAUSE TRUMP WON THE F@&$ TRIAL! After FIVE days of proceedings. Which he was DUE under law. In other words, he received due process and won. Yet his supporters are still incensed at the trial judge.
As we’ve oft discussed and I really don’t think is disputed, she wouldn’t have preceded that handful of pages with hundreds of paragraphs of scorched-earth factual findings totally irrelevant to her ultimate holding were she not fully expecting to get overturned.
Lol. This gets disputed every time you say it. This is a common tactic for judicial efficiency. She held a whole trial with witnesses and everything. Then she decided that the whole thing was irrelevant due to a legal technicality.
It would’ve been judicial malpractice not to have included the factfinding in the opinion, in case the technicality — which she knew was a novel point — got overturned. If the outcome of the trial hadn’t been preserved in the opinion, she’d have had to have held a whole new trial.
She thought she was right. Trump won in her court. She’s just not so arrogant as to presume that there’s zero chance of her legal conclusion being overturned.
She explained the reason she also ruled on facts presented, because of the limited time to get resolution of this question. Similarly, the Supreme Court is almost certainly not going to remand this back to Colorado for more proceedings and then consider the case again later.
Right. Judge Wallace explained her reasoning at footnote 12:
That is sound and prudent jurisprudence, which promotes judicial economy.
They did convict some of seditious conspiracy, which would appear more than sufficient for A14S3 disqualification. While charging insurrection would include disqualification to hold office (regardless of previous oath taking), it has a lower prison sentence than seditious conspiracy and it doesn't seem likely that the Oath Keepers or Proud Boys are likely to take office under the United States any time soon.
The "insurrection" Trump is accused of engaging in for purposes of the 14th Amendment isn't the trespassing at the Capitol, but the overall attempt to unlawfully prevent the transfer of power from Trump to Biden (of which the J6 demo was a part).
Thus, the trespassers could never have had enough knowledge of the overall plan to be charged with criminal insurrection. Trespassing, rioting, sure. Even sedition, for a few of the more organized and hard-core ones.
Yes, Trump and certain others involved in the actual planning and implementation of the insurrection could have been charged with criminal insurrection, but it is, as mentioned in the article, a very rarely used statute and not a slam dunk. Historically, the DoJ usually only brings cases they know they can win (the Backpage prosecution notwithstanding).
The J6 demonstration was indeed part of the plan. The J6 riot absolutely was not, it spiked the plan.
The reason insurrection for Trump isn't a slam dunk is that there's been no evidence produced at all that he actually directed anybody to break in. And that's kind of important here.
Because the actual break in has been proven in court to have been premeditated on the part of OTHER people, if you follow Brandenburg Trump's speech that day can't have incited it; there's no causal link between the speech and the event! And anything he said previous to that day is too remote to have legally been incitement.
So to pin the break in on him you have to demonstrate that he actually was in on the plot. Not that he found it amusing to watch.
And nobody has produced any evidence of that.
Well, there's all the evidence listed in the indictment in Washington DC. And in the January 6th committee report. It's not necessary to "pin the break-in on him" for Trump to have engaged in insurrection, but it's not hard to do. If it wasn't the plan, why would Trump not have swiftly heeded his advisors who implored him to tell the insurrectionist mob to go home?
'The J6 riot absolutely was not, it spiked the plan.'
It was part of the plan AND it spiked the plan, which was spiking itself in all sorts of other ways, too.
I never quite fathom how naive academics are about the consequences of their arguments.
it’s only being called an ‘insurrection’ to have an excuse to invoke Section 3. For all other purposes, they’ve avoided that label, presumably because they don’t think they could make it stick.
Trump was impeached for inciting an insurrection, and a majority of the Senate voted to convict.
Yup, couldn't make it stick there either. What was your point again?
That Brett, as always, was straight-up lying.
What all of you still refuse to acknowledge is that there has to be a clear feeling of legitimacy to any decision to keep someone off the ballot. Having grown up in Northern Virginia during the era of Lyndon LaRouche, I’m here to tell you that literally being in jail isn’t enough, by itself, to disqualify a person from running for office (LaRouche was a sort of proto-sovereign citizen who went to jail for not paying his taxes)
There are clear qualifications in the Constitution and state laws for various federal and state elected offices. Those are self-executing. There’s no question of whether a naturalized citizen is a naturalized citizen, or whether a prospective candidate meets the age requirement for the office of President. These are things we all can see for ourselves. If a state office requires candidates to be free of certain criminal convictions, and they aren’t, that’s a matter of public record about which there can be no factual argument.
What’s not self-evident is whether Donald Trump incited or participated in an insurrection. There isn’t even agreement on whether the events of January 6 constitute an insurrection on anyone’s part. As cited in the OP, nobody has been charged with such. If several people not Trump had been charged and convicted of insurrection, there would be a clear legal finding to reference, and if Trump himself had been convicted there would be no serious argument that Section 3 applies. But. That. Hasn’t. Happened. And it’s been years, more than long enough for a case to be brought, especially with all the attention and resources that have been lavished on it.
Therefore, what’s going on with these various efforts to take Trump off the ballot is that a tiny handful of people are taking it upon themselves to make a determination that an insurrection happened and that Trump participated in it, therefore invoking Section 3. These efforts are based on legalistic arguments that don’t resonate with most of the public. They lack legitimacy. Unless they can find some, they are simply a better-dressed version of their opposition, yelling about it on the statehouse steps. They way to show seriousness and intelligence on this issue is to accept that.
"if Trump himself had been convicted there would be no serious argument that Section 3 applies."
Yes, but there would be unserious arguments to that effect -- and leftists have already argued exactly that, saying that because the wording of §2383 (as amended in 1948) is not exactly the same as 14.3, conviction would not trigger disqualification under 14.3.
I guess it never occurred to those people that most federal civil rights laws would be unconstitutional under their theory.
"I guess it never occurred to those people that most federal civil rights laws would be unconstitutional under their theory."
How so? Conviction of Trump under § 2383 would moot any § 3 disqualification proceedings (unless Trump were to run for state office), in that the statute mandates that anyone convicted thereunder shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. A court could give a civil disqualification plaintiff no relief over and above what the criminal sentence would require.
OTOH, an acquittal under § 2383, however, would not preclude imposition of the civil disability created by § 3. As Justice Brandeis opined in Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391, 397-398 (1938):
Compare United States v. One Assortment of 89 Firearms, 465 U.S. 354 (1984); One Lot Emerald Cut Stones v. United States, 409 U.S. 232 (1972) (per curiam).
What does any of that have to do, however, with the constitutionality vel non of most federal civil rights?
"What does any of that have to do, however, with the constitutionality vel non of most federal civil rights?"
Because the enforcing legislation is not a direct quote of the relevant Constitutional Amendment. I forgive most of this kind of stuff because our legal system is adversarial by design, so whatever works pretty much goes. But if we’re talking about taking candidates off the ballot, yeah no. Even Trump, who I’m sure plenty of us would rather move past. This isn’t the way.
Very well said. One thing we can all agree on is that we’ve found a big, fat hole in the middle of an Amendment passed over a century ago, and are only now getting around to falling into it.
Sometimes when you try to use a tool in a way it wasn't designed to be, it bends and breaks.
What on earth was section 3 designed to do, if not disqualify certain insurrectionists from holding certain offices?
The hole is in defining which branch of government gets to decide what constitutes insurrection. Feds? Courts? State? Administrative Officers in a State?
I sure wish people would just stop acting as if this is all just fine and dandy, settled years ago. Move along, nothing to see here!
This is a novel use of the Amendment. Deal.
A sitting President engaging in "insurrection" against the Constitution is (fortunately) a novel fact pattern.
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That’s usually true in the United States today, but certainly not always, and it definitely wasn’t universally true in the 18th century.
Do you have doubt whatsoever that these convictions would be reflexively dismissed as unfair, politically motivated, etc. by Trump partisans? Indeed, I’m skeptical that there’s anyone who would actually feel like a conviction would make disqualification more legitimate
I’m skeptical that there’s anyone who would actually feel like a conviction would make disqualification more legitimate
Most people aren't hyper-partisans. A criminal conviction for 'insurrection' would settle for most on the right, left, and--most importantly--the center that it was indeed an insurrection. Whatever legal interpretations followed from that finding would then be justified in the eyes of most, even if they didn't like it.
Obviously there are always going to be dead-enders, but the problem today is that a wide swath of the public seriously questions the idea that Trump or anyone else on Jan 6 engaged in insurrection. And with justification, since despite massive media coverage and the budget of a small state put into investigations and prosecutions, in four years not a single person has been charged, let alone convicted, of "insurrection."
Take a look at any of the discussions of the cases Trump is actually involved in, right now: his supporters have already declared any adverse result illegitimate (including in the cases he hasn’t even lost yet!). Thinking that an insurrection conviction would be received more favorably seems (to put it charitably) awfully optimistic.
Absolutely correct.
The documents case is a unanimous guilty verdict 10/10 times based on the evidence in the indictment.
Trump supporters don't give a fuck about facts or law, and decry that he's innocent of everything. They are a cancer to this country.
Trump himself refused to accept it for Obama!
Well, you can count me as someone who sure as heck-fire would feel like a conviction in federal court would make disqualification more legitimate. Absolutely. My sense is that nearly everyone would.
By a "Trump-hating D.C. jury"?
Don't make me laugh.
Well, sure, if they wanted to make it maximally legitimate, they'd arrange to have the trial someplace where 90%+ of the jury pool weren't of one party.
Thank you for chiming in so quickly to confirm the point.
That's laughable. Maybe if Trump were convicted, in Alabama, by an all-white male jury consisting solely of registered Republicans, at a trial presided over by a Trump-appointed judge, there would be no such arguments made. But — as the current lawsuits against, and criminal prosecutions of, Trump demonstrate — his acolytes don't accept the legitimacy of any proceeding where he loses. Wrong jurisdiction, wrong judge, wrong people on the jury. All those arguments would be raised if Trump were prosecuted for insurrection and convicted.
This is not an argument for or against anything, it's speculation at best and projection at worst.
The validity if Trump prosecutions is being denounced in these very comments. Why do you think an insurrection prosecution would fare any better?
"NO WAY I CAN GET A FAIR TRIAL, OR EVEN CLOSE TO A FAIR TRIAL, IN WASHINGTON, D.C. THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR THIS, BUT JUST ONE IS THAT I AM CALLING FOR A FEDERAL TAKEOVER OF THIS FILTHY AND CRIME RIDDEN EMBARRASSMENT TO OUR NATION, WHERE MURDERS HAVE JUST SHATTERED THE ALL TIME RECORD, OTHER VIOLENT CRIMES HAVE NEVER NEEN WORSE, AND TOURISTS HAVE FLED. THE FEDERAL TAKEOVER IS VERY UNPOPULAR WITH POTENTIAL AREA JURORS, BUT NECESSARY FOR SAFETY, GREATNESS, & FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE!"
(Troof Social, August 6, 2023)
No, it's neither speculation nor projection.
It's "I can't convince everybody, so I needn't bother trying to convince anybody."
Sure, it wouldn't convince everybody, but it would move the needle.
Just as the failure in 3 years to charge anybody with insurrection move the needle in the opposite direction...
So much for 'lawfare.'
Speaking of embarrassing historical errors, Baude’s post is full of them.
The Civil War Congresses recognized the constitutional infirmities of the Second Confiscation Act, including applying its disqualification clause to elected federal officials, which is why such similar language was used in the Fourteenth Amendment: to put those qualifications for office on firm constitutional footing.
The question of who engaged in an insurrection was a problem even in the 1860s, which is a large part of why the 1870 Enforcement Act established a quo warranto process for civil proceedings against government officers who supposedly violated 14.3. That process was later repealed, but the historical challenges show why — practically speaking — Congress should have “the” power to prescribe enforcement of 14.3.
And that's not even getting to the fact that the wording of §2383 was tweaked in 1948, well after the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.
"power". not "the power". Turns out there was a typo on the national archives for the last twenty years. 14.5 doesn't say "The Power"
https://www.reddit.com/r/supremecourt/comments/19fg7gs/who_misquoted_the_14th_amendment_a_mystery/
That's why I had quotes around the word "the".
Usually quotes are for language that does appear in the original source, not language that doesn’t.
.
Speaking of historical errors…
What error do you allege there?
See section 14 of https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1870 .
The Enforcement Act didn’t establish a quo warranto process—it provided direction to the executive and the judiciary as to how to use the preexisting common law quo warranto process.
Congress wouldn't need to pass a law to do that. They could write a letter, shout it on street corners, etc.
Congress passed a law — the one we're talking about — to make it mandatory for the executive to use the quo warranto process to remove ineligible officeholders. It would need to pass a law to do that, and it did so.
You can't comprehend it for them.
Separate from the history of Section 3 itself, there is also a long history of eligibility for public office being determined entirely by civil proceedings, from the common-law writ of Quo Warranto to Congress acting as a court of impeachment.
Under the theory that state legislatures have an independent right to set qualifications for Presidential electors including whatever pledge clauses they wish to impose (e.g. including limits on who they are permitted to pledge to vote for), this power is, like all state powers, limited by the 14th Amendment. Under the 14th Amendment, states must provide fair procedures for adjudicating disputes.
Because of the history of using civil court proceedings to determine eligibility for office, Maine’s use of an administrative procedure may not be constitutionally sufficient if the administrative decision is given only highly deferential review if challenged in civil court. I am open to the idea that requiring de novo review by a trial court of record is more in keeping with our nation’s history and tradition as to what constitutes minimal fair due process in such a situation.
Nonetheless, our nation’s history and tradition makes it clear that a civil proceeding with adequate due process safeguards is sufficient to determine eligibility for office, and a criminal trial is not necessary. Colorado’s process, which included a 5-day de novo trial with full opportunity to cross-examine witnesses and present evidence and argument plus an appeal to the state Supreme Court, was sufficient.
The Due Process Clause also requires fair notice. But I think Section 3’s long presence in the constitution provides adequate notice that a state would regard it as incorporated into a general election code provision requiring candidates to be qualified. This more than satisfies Due Process for purposes of a civil proceeding.
The fact that creative arguments can be made that Section 3 doesn’t apply to Mr. Trump or that the Colorado Secretary of State had no duty to consider it in considering his ballot petition do not make it in any way unconstitutionally vague.
The Department of Justice is not seeking to disqualify Donald Trump from appearing on the ballot. Trump's challengers are mostly non-federal actors invoking state election statutes. These proponents of disqualification are not in privity with the DOJ, and they have no ability to determine what crimes Trump is or is not charged with.
Jack Smith knows a thing or two about litigating against despots. He is seeking to send Trump to prison -- the ballot access challengers can fend for themselves. Trump is 77 years old, and he is charged under numerous federal statutes carrying harsher penalties than insurrection or rebellion under 18 U.S.C. § 2383. If the pending prosecutions are successful, Trump will die in prison.
The DC prosecution is utter BS. Only marginally better than the dog poop wrapped in cat poop that are the twin NY cases.
rloquitur, have you read the D.C. indictment? Yes or no?
Kyle Cheney and Joshn Gerstein did.
https://x.com/kyledcheney/status/1752663048576278911?s=20
"The charges are novel applications of criminal laws to unprecedented circumstances"
That sums up this indictment.
This is just like the Rick Perry indictment.
I am surprised the New York Times editors let this phrase slip by, instead of insisting on deleting it, let alone insist on replacing it with, "the charges are plain applications of well-established law backed by two centuries of Supreme Court precedent".
Hang on, is it §2283 or §2383?
As far as I know, no one is suggesting Trump violated § 2283:
Lol, they do read the comments.
(The article's typos have been corrected now.)
The absurd result is one or two purple states can keep him off the ballot, deciding for the entire nation. Unlike the Civil War, these claims are hyperventillated so facetious glib statements can continue the distortions in service to getting a political enemy, as was done with the myriad initiatives against this opponent over the better part of a decade, long before Jan. 6.
A transparent statistical pattern of abusing the investigative power against political enemies for over 7 years now puts the lie to it being disinterestsd concern for rule of law.
The law is clear: Trump is not eligible. It is those who are trying to dance around the words of 14/3 that have no concern for the law.
Commit crimes, get investigated. I learned that from Law & Order reruns.
If the Supreme Court gets around to deciding that the meaning of "engaged in insurrection" encompasses what Trump did, then surely no State would be able to keep him on their ballot--or vice versa.
Whether the Colorado courts applied the correct definitions of "insurrection" and "engaged" are questions of federal law, reviewable de novo by SCOTUS. Whether the evidence developed before the Colorado District Court shows that Donald Trump engaged in insurrection is a quintessential question of fact, which should not be set aside unless clearly erroneous.
If the high court disagrees with the state courts' use of these definitions, the remedy should be to remand to the Supreme Court of Colorado for further fact finding under the corrected definitions as to whether the evidence developed before the District Court shows that Trump engaged in insurrection. Whether to remand to the District Court would be up to the state Supreme Court.
Normally I would agree, but this is a time sensitive case. The facts are all known and in the public domain. SCOTUS can rule on this as is. And it does not matter because SCOTUS won't rule based on facts or law, but how they feel the law should be.
Which seems like the best possible outcome for the pro-disqualification side. It means they got past all of the potential procedural hurdles.
I have a hard time imagining that SCOTUS doesn’t fix the definition of insurrection if it reaches the merits. The trial court said insurrection is any group of people who prevent the enforcement of federal law through force or threat of force. That was the same definition used in the Cuoy Griffin case and that seems uncomfortably broad to me. Colorado Supreme Court essentially said it wasn’t necessarily adopting that definition but it didn’t need to define insurrection because what Trump did met any possible definition of insurrection. I think it’s an important enough question that SCOTUS can’t leave that as the resolution.
Didn't the CO Sup Ct say something more to the effect of a '...organized group of people who use force or threat of force whose purpose [in this case] was to prevent or stop the lawful/peaceful transfer of power? Where the lawful transfer of power was a) a proceeding of Congress set out in the b) constitution.
The amendment requires rebellion or insurrection against the constitution [the language references people who took an oath to support the constitution then commit insurrection against *the same.* Where 'same' directly references the constitution. Which is why all the comments about BLM protests in the summer could be many things [crimes] but weren't insurrection. Because the people rioting or committing crimes weren't doing so to rebel against the constitution. Whereas the whole aim of 'stop the steal' was in fact to prevent the lawful/peaceful transfer of power from the winner of the election to the loser. In violation of the US Constitution which sets out how and when the transfer of power takes place.
Kind of? They agreed that an insurrection is more than a riot but less than a rebellion. What they said was “we need not adopt a single-all encompassing definition of the word ‘insurrection’” and said concerted force or threat of force to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking actions necessary to accomplish the peaceful transfer of power is definitely insurrection.
And that’s way too loosy-goosey for the issue at stake. That is barely better than Stewart Potter’s I know it when I see it concurrence on obscenity. That might have worked in the Warren and Burger courts, but this is pretty damn serious and if the court reaches the merits, they’d better have a more concrete definition than this.
"The absurd result is one or two purple states can keep him off the ballot, deciding for the entire nation."
Uh, no. Whether Donald Trump is subject to nonmutual offensive collateral estoppel on whether he engaged in insurrection is for determination in each state where a future challenge may be adjudicated, based on the law of the forum state.
He was clearly talking about practicalities. Reading something literally and then pretending not to understand is infantile.
No absurd result.
The US Supreme Court will first determine if Colorado is deciding only for itself, or if it is deciding for the nation as a whole.
If Colorado is deciding for itself, then so what? Every state always gets to decide for itself. That’s what assigning selecting the president to a college of electors where each state legislature gets to make its own decisions about how to appoint its electors means.
If Colorado is deciding for the nation, then the Supreme Court will proceed to rule on its decision, either upholding it or striking it down. In either case, the final decision will be made not by “one or two states,” but by the highest court in the United States. And that’s exactly where the decision would end up anyway, regardless of where it started.
No absurd result either way.
.
It's possible Trump's accusers are motivated by screwing him rather than the rule of law and at the same time Trump should be disqualified under 14.3 nonetheless. Mark Furman may have tried to frame a guilty man by planting the bloody glove.
In the spirit of the old Jewish joke ("oy, was I thirsty!") I expect that after Trump v Anderson is decided, we'll see copious posts from the usual suspects analysing where the SC went wrong (or right).
You forget the copious posts trying to interpret the oral arguments.
SRG,
a. Do you have a link to this joke? My mom and dad told it to me a half-century ago, but I've never seen it online? (In their version; the thirsty woman was in an upper berth on a train, btw)
b. Surely, in a legal blog, it is to be expected (and desired??) that, after a hugely important decision, hundreds of gallons of internet ink will be spilled in analyzing said decision. True for major gun-rights cases; true for abortion-limitation cases; true for election-ballot-qualification cases.
My main real hope is that it is--regardless of which way it goes--a unanimous or near-unanimous decision. If it goes Trump's way; I can absolutely see it coming down 9-0 (depending on the majority's rationale). If it goes against Trump, I'm hoping and praying for a 7-2 (Thomas and Alito are already in the bag for Trump, in my own personal private view . . . although such uncharitable speculation is worth what you paid for it, natch.)
The essence of the disqualification argument is that speech uttered by the President of the United States at a political rally disqualifies him from holding office if re-elected.That seems to be speech protected by the First Amendment under Brandenburg.
But the Fourteenth Amendment came later in time, so that if there is an inescapable conflict between the two the provision ratified later in time ought to prevail. Section 2383, enacted in 1862 includes terms like "incite" and "set on foot", that are conspicuously absent from the Amendment, and it also includes giving aid or comfort to an insurrection, while the Amendment only addresses aid or comfort to the enemies of the United States.
So there does not seem to be an unavoidable conflict between the FIrst and Fourteenth Amendments on this point. Instead, even if Trump's speech arguably incited an insurrection it is protected unless it was intended to incite imminent lawless acts, and reasonably likely to do so.
No, that's not the "essence" of the disqualification argument.
The notion that Trumps actions were only J6 is a MAGA trap. He also spearheaded the fake elector scheme, bullied local officials to declare him the winner, and pressured Pence to throw out EC votes.
You mean lobbying government officials to do an official act?
Not even Baude and paulsen were alleging that these other acts were part of the Insurrection®™.
It is all laid out in the House Report.
The essence of The Godfather is that when Don Corleone engages in his right to peaceful free speech at a family gathering by innocently commenting that the family might be better off without so-and-so, the feds inappropriately treat such obviously innocent free speech as if it were some sort of crime. And they do it just because they hate Italians, right?
Brandenburg surely protects Don Corleone’s right to peacefully advocate that certain people should dissappear, doesn’t it? I mean, it’s just pure abstract advocacy. It’s not like Don Corleone had any relationship with the people doing the whacking, formed any plan with them, or had any intent that anybody should actually whack anybody. And he never actually SAID anybody should be whacked. He just said the family would be better off without them. Any attempt to infer an implied meaning is just pure anti-Italian persecution.
Shame on those horrible bigoted feds!
It's funny to see all the egghead lawyers miss the forest for the trees.
The bottom line is the judiciary as fact-finder is not competent to determine if Donald Trump was an insurrectionist due to his speech (which is standard political red meat--"you bring a knife, we bring a gun") . It's not competent for the reasons ably explained in Scalia's dissent in Brown v. Plata. The judiciary simply is not equipped. What is the standard of proof?
Who else is better equipped? The judiciary has procedures and laws that are meant to allow for a fair hearing for all sides. That is what you want.
See Scalia's dissent in Brown v. Plata, and you will see.
I did. Not relevant. His beef was that he saw the issue as inherently subject to bias because there is not fact based way to rule. That is quite different from Trump's case where the facts are not in dispute.
Not at all. Mr. Trump, a specific individual, was found disqualified to receive Colorado’s electoral votes because he engaged in specific conduct, conduct he himself personally did.
Nothing whatsoever to do with what Justice Scalia objected to in Brown v. Plata. In that case, Justice Scalia objected to giving uninjured people relief because of an injury the defendant allegedly inflicted on others. His objection was that just because there were people injured by the defendants, a “systemic constitutional violation” didn’t give the uninjured people standing to sue or a right to receive federal judicial relief.
There’s no similar standing problem in this case. In fact, there’s no standing problem at all. At this point, the State of Colorado through its Supreme Court and Secretary of State have ordered Trump removed from its ballot. Colorado and its Secretary of State have clear sovereign standing to enforce Colorado’s laws. Trump has unquestionable personal standing to seek an office. All parties have experienced an injury in fact.
It’s true Mr. Anderson might not have had standing if he had filed this case in federal court. But if states want to let any individual voter challenge a candidate’s qualifications in their courts, they can. And because the Colorado Secretary of State is also a party to this case, there is a party with unquestionable standing on both sides. The side that wins is unquestionablly directly entitled to judicial relief.
So Brown v. Plata have nothing whatsover to do with this case.
At least ChatGPT gave you the name of a real case. Sometimes it doesn’t do even that.
I don't wish to nitpick, but it is Ms. Norma Anderson. Donald Trump attempted at the outset of the lawsuit to remove it to federal court, but everyone agreed that the suit was not subject to removal because the petitioners did not have Article III standing. The case was promptly remanded to state court.
With respect to Brown v. Plata, I was talking about the judicial competence in fact-finding.
Adjudicating whether or not someone engaged in particular co ducts and whether that meets a certain legally-significant definition, seems like a core judicial competency in the way that managing a prison system is not.
So, if I say someone isn an insurrectionist, they are an insurrectionist, and no proof needs to be presented?
Yes, you are allowed to decide for yourself whether Trump's actions were anti-democratic, authoritarian, and a form of insurrection. You don't need anyone else to tell you exactly what Trump is, his actions have made it pretty clear.
So if I say you’re an insurrectionist, you cannot run for political office, since my word is all that’s needed?
Cool.
I need to start a list.
It's pretty fucking obvious that Brandon aided and comforteds the Taliban.
You don't need a judge; just read the fucking news!
You can also call spirits from the vasty deep; so can any man.
Of course, you can't disqualify anyone from running for office by yourself. In Colorado, it took the state legislature passing state laws barring unqualified candidates, a trial judge and the Colorado Supreme Court.
No, it's all YOU need to decide whether, in your opinion, I should be disqualified, and if I run, whether to vote for me or not.
There are 50 states + D.C., each with some variations on how they run elections, including laws, rules, and regulations on how someone ends up on a ballot for a particular office. That means that someone, or multiple someones, decide whether or not a candidate is qualified to be on the ballot for that office. Those qualifications include basic facts that are easily verified as true or false, like age, citizenship, legal residence, etc. It will also include qualifications that are a little more complicated, such as any requirements to obtain signatures from registered voters, financial disclosure documents, party affiliation, and so on. Sect. 3 provides for a qualification that is more complicated than any of those to assess absent a criminal conviction, but it is still a qualification that someone has to judge. If a candidate is denied their application to be on the ballot, and they feel that those that denied them that access did so arbitrarily, they can challenge that in court or through other means afforded by state and federal law.
Arguments that Trump is being denied due process here are disingenuous given that his challenges to being denied access to the ballot as a candidate are being evaluated in the courts right now. The insistence that only a criminal trial would be due process is not valid either, as the decision to put a candidate on the ballot or not is an administrative one, not a criminal matter.
Well, there are defamation limits you might well be concerned about. Trump is very litigious (as would lots of people with unlimited legal spending at their disposal).
In this case the facts are not in dispute. And CO held a five day hearing on the issue.
"It parallels the Constitution's other qualifications for office, such as age, residency, and citizenship, none of which of course requires a criminal trial."
Will Baude, an intellectual, believes that because a candidate's age, residency, and citizenship (none of which are criminal offenses) do not require criminal trials to establish, then neither does the crime of insurrection. Simply stunning.
Yeah that's the thing. At bottom, there's always the implied assumption that of course it was an insurrection. But that's nowhere close to being an 'of course,' and it's telling that none of the people pushing the Section 3 solution seem willing to defend the assertion that Jan. 6 was an insurrection, versus a riot, mostly peaceful protest etc. Usually once you ask that question, you see words like "MAGAt" pretty quickly after.
Does mischaracterizing Baude's argument make it less damaging?
I am not a lawyer.
Will the definition of insurrection be different in each state? I have read several dictionaries with slightly different entries for the word. Is there a common definition for the term and a set of criteria that is met for applying the term to an event? Also, are there thresholds regarding levels aid and comfort given to any group performing the acts?
I am just looking for information.
At the end of the day I think whatever happens in regards to this matter, it should feel legitimate to any rational supporters of Mr. Trump. I understand that there are people who invest themselves in the outcomes of these processes to a degree that I myself do not.
Nobody knows. We're watching raw law in the making, here. Read and Find Out!
I appreciate the reply. The issue I find is that finding material produced without a favored viewpoint apparent is difficult. I guess objectivity is just hard to find. Any pointers to good sources would be appreciated. Thank you.
No, seriously. This really is Raw Law in the Making. The various posts on the Volokh Conspiracy for and against this disqualification are about as good as it gets.
You could also try R/SupremeCourt, The "Amarica's Constitution" podcast, and some of the better briefs filed on SCOTUS's own webpage, but seriously, NOBODY knows how this is going to turn out, and therefore, nobody knows which predictions have any validity to them.
Several plausible scenarios exist for the question of "Will the definition of insurrection be different in each state?"
off the top of my head:
1. SCOTUS rules that the definition of insurrection in each state DOESN'T MATTER, because state's can't enforce 14.3 ANYWAY. or at least, they can't do so unless congress passes a new law allowing them to do so, complete with a new congressional definition of insurrection.
2. SCOTUS rules that States CAN enforce 14.3, but only against 'purely' STATE candidates, not presidents, veeps, congressman, or senators. For the time being, States can choose their own 'narrow, precise' insurrection definition for use against internal state candidates, as long as that definitions lands somewhere inside the current 'broader, vaguer' federal definition. Unless of course Congress gets around to passing a 'narrow, precise' FEDERAL definition, in which case, that new federal definition will govern.
3. SCOTUS rules that states can take PRELIMINARY actions to enforce state definitions of insurrection against federal candidates running inside that state, but that the 'final' action and 'final' decision will also be conducted by a FEDERAL district court, and, for the time being, each FEDERAL district court gets to use IT'S own definitions, too. Until SCOTUS eventually gets around to standardizing that definition across all federal courts, but SCOTUS says they're kind of busy right now, so it may take several years before they get around to it.
4. SCOTUS actually provides a very specific, very clear definition on their very first try, and even specifies if that definition is supposed to be used by state courts, federal courts, or both.
5. SCOTUS rules that they honestly don't know the answers to any of these questions yet, that they really couldn't say who's supposed to decide or what definitions they should use, and they're only going to issue the bare minimum placeholder order here, either for or against Colorado, but saying nothing useful about any other states or any other federal courts AT ALL. SCOTUS invites everyone to file lawsuits against everyone else, for several more months of total confusion to reign, and maybe by the time all THOSE lawsuits have been appealed to SCOTUS, six month from now, SCOTUS will finally start to have some actual answers ready. Or maybe not. SCOTUS makes no promises.
Point being, at the moment, we REALLY don't know which of those options SCOTUS is going to pick, or if they're going to invent a sixth one which I didn't think to list. Therefore, we have NO IDEA if "Will the definition of insurrection be different in each state?" is even a question that makes SENSE yet. Right now, my PERSONAL guess is that we're going to land somewhere AROUND options 2, 3, or 4, but.... that's really just a guess.
Most "mainstream" media seems to be expecting option 1. I have nightmares that we might get option 5. Wait and Find Out.
Thank you for the ideas. The interactions between the United States of America and its constituent states are interesting. I guess we will see what we will see.
However, Scotus has final say on what "insurrection" means in 14/3 of the Constitution.
If they come up with a very broad definition that includes what Trump actually did, then like impeachment, we will not see the end of claims against future presidents and candidates. Any president who could be said to have failed to faithfully uphold the laws could also be said to have been engaged in insurrection if the definition is broad.
My guess is that they will:
1) find a fairly discreet definition for "insurrection",
2) find that what Trump did does not meet that criteria, and
3) the above will settle the controversy.
All of the other messy issues (who decides, is the POTUS an officer..., etc.) go away with a bright line definition of insurrection.
The Colorado courts talk about this a little. The problem is, it’s really hard to find a definition for “insurrection” that doesn’t include January 6. I thought it would be unlikely to count as an insurrection myself, until I started looking at definition after definition and example after example, including ones from the Civil War era, and they all apply.
That’s why you’re not hearing the Trump side proposing some definition they prefer. There really is no definition out there that works for Trump.
There is an argument that “insurrection” as used by the 14th Amendment has some more specific meaning based on its Civil War context. It’s a shaky argument I think, and not one I feel will appeal to SCOTUS (since it opens them up so totally to accusations of being results-oriented and abandoning their stated textualist and originalist principles). But that’s your best bet if you want to go down this path of “was it really an insurrection” on Trump’s behalf.
I'm perfectly happy to concede that at least some people on January 6th were guilty of insurrection. As were some people in past riots attacking government buildings, and setting up supposedly autonomous zones that denied the country control of its own territory. Insurrection has been surprisingly common in the last decade.
The problem is that you're not trying to disqualify Buffalo hat guy, you're trying to disqualify Trump. And you haven't connected him to the riot.
Now, you have connected him to a scheme to persuade members of Congress, and the VP, to exercise discretion (that they properly didn't have...) in his favor. Which, honestly is not that different from Democratic efforts in the last few elections to encourage Republican electors to be unfaithful.
Insurrectionists are so common! Who knew?
But, you'll keep trying to connect him to the riot, without presenting proof, because you know that people aren't buying that definition of "insurrection", they want to see violence.
Only it wasn't Trump's violence...
The Colorado district court found plenty of proof that connected Trump to the insurrection.
Do you care to refute it? Denying its existence just makes you look ostrichly.
You know something, maybe it's because I'm too stuck on actual logic, but I reserve "proof" for things that admit no other conclusion, not things that are merely suggestive.
And there's nothing here that rises to that level.
I'll take that sophistry as a no.
If you weren't a craven liar, you'd actually come back with the arguments from the CSC decision and a rebuttal.
Instead you get called out on your bullshit, wave your hands a bit about some noble perspective that you pretend to have, and run off.
I understand why you only want to talk about the events of January 6, but the Supreme Court will be looking at all the events leading up to January 6.
When you get to writing the article “But Section 3 does not mention ‘President’”, please include the argument that it DOES say “ or hold any office, civil or military”, and that Article II Section 2, clause 1 of the Constitution states the President is Commander in Chief of the military. Therefore the Fourteenth Amendment automatically includes the office of President.
I have not read any articles or briefs that have mentioned this.
tl;dr. As I commented on Blackman's last similar effort - get a room. And that goes for commenters too.
I say Brandon aided and comforted the Taliban in 2021.
My say-so is as good as yours.
So sue pro se to keep him off of your state's ballot. (No competent lawyer would sign on to such a case.) But watch out for imposition of sanctions.
Your mistake is believing that the American mainstream should or does care about the opinions of half-educated, roundly bigoted, disaffected culture war casualties.
I do not know the answer to this legal issue but I know that I couldn't care less what Trump supporters -- un-American write-offs who will next contribute something worthwhile to our society when they die off -- think about it.
Your say-so -- and that of other superstition-addled, poorly educated, intolerant, and ignorant clingers -- is worthless. Threats from culture war roadkill will be counterproductive if our courts have any character and judgment.
Carry on, clinger. So far as your betters permit, and not a step beyond.
IA(definitely)NAL but I have a question. Several years back SCOTUS ruled that Arizona could not enforce immigration law because it was a federal issue. How is it that Colorado can rule on who can run for POTUS? Isn't that also a federal issue? About 20-30 years ago we tried to term limit Congress critters here in California but the courts ruled that we couldn't. I'm not seeing the difference.
You may be right. The law is not settled.
The short answer is presidential elections are different because the states are given explicit power to choose electors (the term limits case covered only congressional elections). Some argue that includes the power to have stricter qualification standards than what the Constitution mandates (e.g., not permitting anyone over 80 on the ballot), including having their own broad interpretation of “engaging in insurrection.”
For the record, I’m with you and think there ought to be a nationwide standard.
IANAL. It would make sense to me that a state could place limitations on the individuals that represent it in federal government. A limitation at the federal level makes less sense to me. There has more than likely been much discourse concerning such matters.
The selection of presidential electors is very much a state issue, per Article II, § 1, ¶ 3. Colorado is not deciding the issue for any other state. If the Colorado ruling stands and Donald Trump's eligibility is challenged in another state, the Colorado ruling would be admissible, but the effect of that ruling would be determined according to the law of the forum state. (Lawyers call that nonmutual offensive collateral estoppel. It is one of the more difficult topics in first year Civil Procedure.)
Will,
Something that your article makes clear that this post does not is that the Second Confiscation Act included the disqualification clause (which would have been wildly unconstitutional at the time). It makes your argument a lot stronger that the disqualification clause predates the 14th Amendment.
I can accept that Trump need not be convicted of insurrection to be disqualified, however, I don’t see that he’s even been charged with it when it seems like a cakewalk to disqualification under your premise if they had. For that matter, I don’t recall that anyone has been charged with it.
No one has been charged with insurrection under 2383.
Read the article if you'd like to know why.
I’ve not seen this argument elsewhere which could mean, I guess, that it’s “crazy” or, possibly, that I’m the first to consider it . . . .
Section 3 establishes a constraint on who can be elected or appointed to certain positions and there’s been much discussion as to whether 1) there was an Insurrection and 2) the constraint applies the Office of POTUS. Lots of conflicting opinions, hereabouts, regarding each of these propositions.
IANAA and I’m writing here to take up a different aspect of the situation . . . .
Seems to me that it is wrong to apply Section 3 to these “Presidential Preference Primaries.” Keep in mind that whether Trump is on the Colorado ballot or not, at the end of the day, NOBODY is going to be elected or appointed to ANYTHING.
Remember! These Presidential Preference Primaries are not mentioned in the Constitution; they are a relatively recent device established as a means of informing the political parties how THEIR voters “feel” about THEIR competing prospects. We know there is considerable state-to-state variation in how these Preference Primaries are conducted including, for example, Closed (where a voter is required, in a fashion, to formally “join” the Party to have a say in who its candidate shall be) or Open (where a voter can, at the polling place, request one party’s ballot). Recently, we read that the New Hampshire Democratic Party has been informed by the DNC that the results of their primary will be ignored.
The point is that the Presidential Preference Primaries are, effectively, nothing more than a formalized Voter Poll . . . who do you “like?” And the results of that “poll” are available to the State Party’s officials to be taken to that Party’s Convention(s) and, presumably, used to aid that Party select its Presidential Candidate.
Thus, IMO, the Constitution has no business telling a State Party who it can or who it cannot consider in what amounts to a “poll” of it’s members. Section 3 does not apply to Presidential Preference Primaries.
To be sure, the Presidential Preference Primaries are part of the overall process and some might argue that if an individual is not eligible for the “end-state” they shouldn’t be permitted to participate in the preliminaries. Except the Presidential Preference Primaries and the November Presidential Election are not directly connected. They are, solely a means for Party “members” in some states to let the Party know what they think of the competing prospective candidates.
The minor parties ("so called "third party candidates) don't even participate in these Presidential Preference Primaries which is to say that they would not be subject to the Section 3 constraint at this point in the process. How they select and handle the investiture of their candidate is their business. After that, state-by-state, they'll qualify to be on the November ballot . . . or not.
Banning a candidate from the Primary ‘cause somebody they aren’t eligible to take office would be like the ATF banning firearms advertising ‘cause somebody who is ineligible to purchase a firearm might see an ad and try to buy one anyway.
November? The “General?” That’s a different story and I’ve spent enough time on the Primaries.
Anyway, that’s what I think.
Yes, that is another twisted angle in this attempt to shoehorn an administrator’s reading of the Constitution into preventing the Democratic Party from having to win an election against the Republican Party.
I say “reading” here because in the case of Maine, at least, the ruling are not criminal, but administrative. It’s not that Trump was guilty of the crime of insurrection, he was guilty of lying on a form. Trump said he was qualified to run in Maine. The Secretary of State believed otherwise based on her interpretation of the Amendment in light of some YouTube videos, Tweets, and of course the J6 Commission's report. Thus, she ruled Trump guilty of lying on the form, and thus disqualified!
Lord help me, I wish I were making all this up, but I’m not.
preventing the Democratic Party from having to win an election against the Republican Party.
Don't be ridiculous. The Democrats are only likely to win in 2024 if Trump remains on the ballot. If he's disqualified, they lose.
Yes, possibly. Frankly I think this will be the death-knell of the Democratic Party if they succeed in getting Trump kicked off the ballot on a technicality.
If elections have consequences, preventing elections have even greater.
People only ever promise consequences for Democrats. Trump tried to illegaly steal an election and everyone is amazed at the idea that there might be consequences.
The Colorado courts thought about this. Colorado law says that only “qualified” candidates can be on the primary ballot. That’s long been thought to apply to constitutional qualifications like age. I think they reasonably concluded it would apply to this constitutional qualification as well.
And there's the rub. Is it normal practice for a state to determine whether someone committed a federal crime? I'm no lawyer, but I think the answer is no.
We cannot square this circle. WHO DECIDES what constitutes insurrection is ambiguous, at best.
Is it normal practice for a state to determine whether someone committed a federal crime?
It is, actually. At least, if you put the question a little bit more honestly, like:
Is it normal practice for a state to determine whether someone is guilty of a federally-defined transgression?
To the extent that state law depends on the federal classification, as here, yes, it's normal for states to have to make the determination in the first instance.
IANAL
So, the question of if some entity is alleged to have transgressed a federally-defined law is determined by the state? Are these cases where the state and federal entities would work together to determine the appropriate forum?
The drafters of the amendment section in question could have saved us some time by just saying that no person shall serve in a position in the federal government if they did certain things. Listing things out like this allows arguments for ambiguity and exceptions. They do not have to be good arguments even. They will plant seeds in some peoples minds. Having good definitions of terms would help as well. I understand that there is an art to drafting laws and regulations but when those words have the possibility of being backed up by force then the words should be very precise.
I mean, they did exatly that. The list has two items:
* engaged in insurrection or rebellion against [the Constitution of] the United States
* given aid or comfort to the enemies of [the Constitution of] the United States
Personally I read them as applying to "the United States," others seem to prefer the reading where they apply to "the Constitution of the United States." But I don't think that matters.
Definitions of the terms would be useful, but the constitution doesn't really do definitions.
So the former confederate states were the ones to decide if their candidates had engaged in insurrection?
It would probably be better for all concerned if the question is determined in time to affect the primaries.
Even if Trump is elected and takes office, if the Supreme Court finds that he "engaged in insurrection" he would be ineligible to hold that office and his VP would automatically assume the Presidency.
His VP would assume the Presidency if they follow the 20th amendment.
I get the impression they mean to blow it off.
Who? How? Wtf?
“…Section Three was enacted as an alternative to widespread prosecutions for treason or other crimes – prosecutions that were thought both practically difficult and needlessly punitive.”
The 14A’s authors thought President Andrew Johnson was being too lenient to former rebels. The President’s mass pardons had already protected most ex-Confederates from prosecution. If we’re going with “original intent,” I’d say the intent was to prevent the ex-officeholders whom Johnson pardoned from serving in office again, unless Congress allowed them (by a supermajority of two-thirds in Senate and House).
If I were into originalism, I’d say that this showed that non-criminal means of enforcement were contemplated for Sec. 3. Criminal prosecutions would run into the risk of Presidential pardons, which the framers were trying to work around.
What does surprise me is the obvious pro-Trump, pro-insurrection bias on the part of the Biden Justice Department. As the author indicates, Sec. 3 grew out of the 1862 statute, and as the author also indicates, Trump's guilt under the 1862 statute is clear beyond doubt. So the Justice Department could simply have charged Trump with this thing he *obviously* did. If they didn't file charges, it can only be because they've all gone MAGA. /sarc
More likely because the career prosecutors keep saying the case is a loser.
I just wonder what the next step will be, if the Court stops the Section 3 bandwagon.
Because the "get Trump" apple is magic: No matter how many bites you take from it, there's always another bite remaining.
Almost like he keeps doing crimes.
He doesn’t need conviction, though that would be nice.
It just needs to be obvious to all, to give confidence this isn’t a process being abused by motivated partisans.
Weasel tricks and facetious assertions are not that. The Civil War and who participated was largely obvious. You wanna talk about this or that small fish, and therefore you can ban a presidential candidate using one or two politically motivated purple states, which is all that’s needed to change the outcome for the nation as a whole?
Weasels, pleasels.
The correct path is to have him on the ballot, to forbid trickeries keeping him off, when half the nation doesn’t agree, then make him lose the election the old fashioned way, because we don’t need a cheerleader for a militarily aggressive Putin (and maybe China), and then we’ll be done and the Constitution is preserved, as is policy.
That's great, but this is a law blog.
Congratulations Prof WILL BAUDE, and MICHAEL PAULSEN on your great discovery!!! You guys finally figured out the constitution does allow “un-democratic” removing political opponents from the ballots! Next, let’s just let democrats form a "bi-partisan" committee to pick a president.
Hooray! All problems resolved!
Constitution-disdaining, bigoted, right-wing conspiracy theorists are among my favorite culture war casualties -- and the target audience of this white, male, right-wing blog.
whatever you mentioned, is 1000X better than being a disgusting NAZI who puts political opponents off ballot and into jail.
The argument that Trump is being denied due process by state officials concluding that he is ineligible is quite farcical. First, his challenges to those decisions are in the courts right now. Second, the insistence that he be criminally convicted of insurrection first doesn't fly. We have, in relatively recent history, an example of a former President being preemptively pardoned for any potential crimes committed while in office before any prosecutions were considered. As noted in the comment above from Margrave, requiring a criminal conviction would have made Sect. 3 inoperable against many Confederates, which is clearly against both the intent, meaning, and plain text of Sect. 3. Congress is the given the authority to remove the disability to hold office, not a President through the pardon power.
Lastly, this accusation of insurrection comes about from Trump and his allies trying to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election through means outside of any semblance of due process. They lost in court dozens of cases. Canvassing boards, state election officials, and even governors of disputed states all refused his sides' attempts to get them to not certify election results in Biden's favor. He was afforded all of the due process one could imagine to make his claims of fraud in appropriate forums, where evidence must be credible and can be challenged and examined under established rules of evidence. He did not wish to accept the results, regardless of how much due process he was given to challenge them, so he looked anywhere for alternatives. When even the Republican Georgia Sec. of State didn't find any of his arguments to be valid and was not going along with his efforts, and VP Mike Pence reiterated his refusal the morning of Jan. 6, Trump was left with the only path to staying in office - encourage his supporters to go to the Capitol building and make enough trouble that it stops Congress from certifying Biden's win. The votes to reject any state's electoral votes were simply not even close to being there. Around a dozen Republican Senators had said they were planning to object. The crowd of Trump supporters was only going to sway Congress one way. That is by physically intimidating nearly 40 additional Republican Senators to join that effort, plus several dozen more House members than had expressed intent to object previously. Or, of course, just getting them to flee the building entirely and not finishing the certification at all, and Trump invokes the Insurrection Act or otherwise just tries to stay in office through force.
It was over other than the ceremonial task of reading off the Electoral votes of each state in Congress. There was no peaceful means for Trump to stay in office. All of the due process he had to challenge the election results and he chose to whip up a crowd for one final push rather than accept the inevitable. Whining about due process now is insulting, and it isn't even true that he is being denied it.
Ground Hog Day was February 2 but on this matter, everyday is Ground Hog Day.
This is honestly a pretty good argument. An example of this is any other example of presidential ineligibility, none of those require a criminal prosecution to determine. It is, after all, not even illegal to be under 35. The fact that this *could* also be a criminal act doesn't mean that a criminal prosecution is required.
I've used this argument in the past, because while I don't want Trump to be president and will reluctantly be voting for Biden again because of how much I don't want Trump to be president, I do consider it problematic to block his ability to be elected in this way particularly without a criminal conviction of any kind. And honestly, that hasn't changed. I see these court cases as less frivolous on technical grounds, but absent a criminal conviction we're left with a pretty big problem because that makes whether someone is eligible to be president much more subjective than other ways of making a person ineligible for office.
To put it simply 'who decides'?
I don't think that Section 3 CAN'T be enforced against someone who hasn't been convicted of insurrection. I just think that when invoking Section 3 against an immensely popular candidate, for the stability of the future you had damn well better have an airtight case that what you are doing is neither arbitrary nor capricious nor born of political expediency. And the best way to present the appearance of such an even-handed invocation of Section 3 is to have an insurrection conviction to back it up with.
The above argument is idiotic at best. The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution says: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, neither of which has taken place. The way you are trying to spin the 14th Amendment would make it unconstitutional.
Marbury v. Madison (1803)“A Law repugnant to the Constitution is void.” With these words written by Chief Justice Marshall, the Supreme Court for the first time declared unconstitutional a law passed by Congress and signed by the President.
The 14th amendment is an amendment to the constitution, it cannot be declared unconstitutional except based on a subsequent amendment.
I agree that the above interpretation is problematic in execution, but it is actually a reasonable argument in terms of how the amendment was written. I would say that this interpretation demonstrates that the 14th amendment is, to some extent, bad law. That said, from the perspective that the constitution is the document which constitutes our government, it is not something which can simply be dismissed because it is bad law.
1) Being ineligible is not a criminal punishment to which the the 5th Amd would apply.
2) the 14th Amd post-dates the 5th Amd (not a conspiracy theory; 14 > 5 last I checked). Even if being ineligible for office were viewed as a criminal punishment, it's specifically allowed by the 14th Amd because later amendments trump earlier amendments.
Your lack of basic understanding is not, in itself, a valid argument for ignoring the actual words of the US Constitution.
As the amicus brief filed on behalf of Floyd Abrams and numerous First Amendment scholars discusses, “The Constitution of the United States, with the several amendments thereof, must be regarded as one instrument, all of whose provisions are to be deemed of equal validity.” Prout v. Starr, 188 U.S. 537, 543 (1903). In other words, “provisions of the constitution are equally obligatory, and are to be equally respected.” Cohens v. Virginia, 19 U.S. (6 Wheat.) 264, 393 (1821). “It cannot be presumed that any clause in the constitution is intended to be without effect,” Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137, 174 (1803). A court’s duty is “to construe the constitution as to give effect to [each] provision[], as far as it is possible to reconcile them, and not to permit their seeming repugnancy to destroy each other.” Cohens, 19 U.S. at 393.
The Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 can be harmonized with pre-existing constitutional provisions, such as the First, Fifth and Sixth Amendments and the Ex Post Facto and Bill of Attainder clauses by construing § 3 as a narrow provision which modifies pre-existing constitutional provisions only insofar as it cannot be reconciled with them.
Construing disqualification under § 3 as a civil disability and not as a criminal punishment avoids conflicts with the Sixth Amendment and the Ex Post Facto and Bill of Attainder clauses — each of which applies only to criminal punishment. The narrow construction of § 3 as a civil disability also preserves Fifth Amendment Due Process guaranties and avoids conflict with the Fifth Amendment Grand Jury provision and Double Jeopardy prohibition (applicable only to criminal proceedings), and clarifies that the privilege against self-incrimination applies, but permits a factfinder to draw an adverse inference from assertion of the privilege.
"The Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 can be harmonized with pre-existing constitutional provisions..."
Of course, and a narrow bright line definition of "insurrection" would do the trick. No need to water down the first amendment if SCOTUS does not first adopt an overly broad definition of insurrection.
Side argument. Can the President actually be guilty of engaging in insurrection?
I mean, an insurrection is a violent uprising against the government. But the President is the head of the government and the head of state. So, the President would be engaging in insurrection....against himself?
I mean, let's look at some hypothetical examples. Let's say, Joe Biden orders the FBI and DC National Guard to secure the Capitol on January 6th, 2024, due to some perceived threat. Let's say the Speaker of the House at the time disagrees that such a threat, believing it a pretense, and orders the Capitol Police to stop the National Guard from taking the Capitol.
Who is engaging in insurrection here? The Speaker? Or the President?
How about that White House meeting on January 5, 2017 when Obama, Biden, Comey, Rice, and others met to discuss using pretexts to investigate the incoming Trump administration. This meeting could constitute an insurrection…in which case Biden can be disqualified, especially since he suggested using the Logan Act to go after General Flynn. What a lame pretext for an investigation. Any half aware “reader” of Constitutional Law should have known that. Too bad President Obama did not.
Nobody met to do any such thing, and investigating someone is not an insurrection and could not constitute one.
I've answered several times that insurrection is against the Constitution, not against the President.
The Constitution is a piece of paper. It is not the government. You can't engage in insurrection against a piece of paper. You engage in insurrection against the government.
Nor is a person the government. The oaths of those in the government are to support the Constitution, and insurrection/rebellion is against the same.
Incorrect. To engage in insurrection is to engage in violent uprising against an authority or government. Not a concept, nor an ideal.
One can’t have a violent uprising against the Third Amendment. Or the 18th Amendment. Or God. Or the concept of “Justice”.
The 18th Amendment doesn't fight back. It can't. But those in authority who are supporting the 18th Amendment can. That's who you would be uprising against.
You are plainly wrong. Nobody takes an oath to the President; they take an oath to the Constitution. It is at worst a synecdoche for the US government as a whole; if you try to end its operation, you engage in insurrection.
If you insist on the insurrection being against a person, it was against the president-elect, who would be blocked from starting his presidential term two week later if it had succeeded.
It is pathetic how desperate you are to make excuses for Trump and his coup attempt.
Technically speaking, they take an oath to defend, preserve, and protect the Constitution, to the best of their ability. Not "to" the Constitution.
Now one could betray their oath. But "violently attack it" doesn't work from a linguistic point of view.
Now, if others found the President betrayed his oath to the Constitution, the valid remedy would be impeachment and removal. (Which didn't occur). Then they would no longer be President, and any violent attack the ex-President took against the government would be an insurrection.
But barring, that, you get into a series of absurdities.
Let's give a different example.
President Biden orders the US Military to seize the State of Texas, due to Texas's actions in trying to prevent illegal immigration.
Ignore Biden for a second here. Let's look at the troops under his control. Are they engaging in insurrection? Or are they following orders?
You apparently believe that anything the president does is legal unless he gets impeached first (ignoring that Trump might have been convicted in the second impeachment if he had still been in office, if Senators who said they voted against conviction because he was no longer in office are to be believed). You seem to think that anything the President and 34 Senators agree to do is legal, no matter how monstrous; I gather that argument is being considered by the D.C. Court of Appeals.
The mob that Trump summoned was not consistent with the examples you propose. "Seize the state of Texas" and the earlier "taking the Capitol" are vague but seem to prejudge the actions as things that should not be done. But there's a huge difference between using a mob while withholding federal law enforcement, the National Guard or other military, as Trump did, and using federal forces even for questionable ends.
If any president gave the military illegal orders, they should not obey them; "just following orders" is known not to fly as an excuse. Presidents have sent troops to states in order that federal law would be enforced (e.g., Eisenhower sending troops during school desegregation, but not to "seize a state"); Congress has power to "provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union", and has done so via the Insurrection Act (which hasn't been invoked since 1992).
A government on the other hand is a group of people which govern a community. They are an authority, one which can be fought against (and they can fight back).
The president can attack the Constitution by breaking his oath, which Trump clearly did. He can certainly attack another branch of government; attacking Congress is attacking the government.
One can certainly violate their oath. But "violently attack"? It doesn't work that way.
It's like violently attacking the color Green.... It makes no sense.
Violently attacking Congress through a mob, as Trump did, is an insurrection. It's an attack on another branch of the federal government, so it's not the President engaging in an insurrection against himself, as you originally asserted.
Violently attacking Congress through a mob, as Henry “Enrique” Tarrio did, and got sentenced to 22 years in prison for, you mean?
A lot of people just want to forget that the attack on the Capitol was planed and executed by people other than Trump, who actually got trials and were convicted of it.
Whereas nobody has charged Trump with his supposed insurrection, let alone convicted him of it.
I would add that the people who actually planned and executed the attack on the Capitol were under heavy surveillance for months, so that if Trump had directed to do it, the feds would have been able to prove it.
And yet they didn't even try. Not even as an unindicted co-conspirator. Why?
Because they planned it on their own, that's why. Well, maybe with a little encouragement from the FBI.
Trump's inaction alone is probably sufficient, but there is more. He wanted to be at the Capitol but the Secret Service wouldn't take him there, and he wanted them not to take away weapons from the people at his speech. He intended the reaction he got with his speech, the culmination of his campaign of lying about the election results, and exhorted his audience to take back the country. He encouraged the violent mob to go after Pence with a tweet. In advance, he went out of his way to block deployment of the DC National Guard. The January 6th committee final report details Trump's responsibility.
Does this Armchair guy claim to be a lawyer?
You're the only one that hasn't gotten the idiom, which is a bit tongue in cheek.
The president is an important official, not the Sun King.
The president is both head of government and head of state. The President is vested the executive power within the United States, which includes the power to enforce and execute federal laws.
Given these roles, for the President to engage in insurrection, they would in essence be engaging in insurrection against themselves.
<blockquote?The president is both head of government
So although we have three co-equal branches of government, you posit that some are more equal than others?
Not exactly. One controls the executive branch. That controls the ability to execute and enforce the laws. If one is to engage in insurrection, that's the branch one must fight against.
Neither Congress, nor the SCOTUS have any real power to enforce the laws.
Nixon tried this. It did not work out.
Has Armchair apologized to you for his recent repeated lies yet?
He's running away and ignoring me when I've brought it up.
Of course he hasn't apologized.
Side argument:
Are you still hiding from your blatant and repeated lies that I called you out on at least 3 separate times?
I've heard that even a trans-man can own up to their lies and apologize, and they aren't actually men!
Yet they seem to be more of one than you are. What's your excuse?
If he's trying to illegally remain in power, he obviously can.
I don't think most lay people who make this argument believe it is a prerequisite to disqualification under Section Three. What they believe is that there should be some sort of objective method of establishing that the events on January 6th were actually an insurrection, and that Trump was involved in those events to the degree that he is guilty of having been involved in an insurrection. What they don't accept is that a declaration by some state level bureaucrat, who just happens to be a Democrat, is sufficient to establish that Trump is guilty, and therefore not qualified to serve as President. They also don't accept media talking heads trumpeting "Insurrection!" establishes that it is actually true.
Had any of the people involved in the events on January 6th been charged and convicted of insurrection then that would objectively establish that January 6th was an insurrection. Had Trump been charged and convicted then that would objectively establish that he was involved in an insurrection. There has been no objective finding by anyone with the authority to make such a finding that either of these points are true.
Many, including myself, do not believe that the events of January 6th rise to the level of an actual insurrection. Many, including myself, do not believe that Trump is guilty of anything other than holding a rally in which he specifically told people to protest peacefully. I believe these deep dives into the constitutional background behind Section Three are a desperate attempt to disqualify Trump by people who know that Biden cannot beat him in a fair election.
Then why would twelve people saying they disagree be objective proof of anything?
Trump wouldn't accept it (see THE ALL CAPS "TROOF" I QUOTED ABOVE), so why would any of his followers accept it? The notion doesn't pass the snort test.
So any government official in any office has the power to decide if any applicant can be denied a status or license or permit…that is what this decision will lead to. Progressives wanted this power back in the 1970s when they pushed the BOB JONES UNIVERSITY case to the Supreme Court…they wanted to give the IRS the power to deny tax exempt status to any entity that did not meet the bureaucracy's standards and to hell with the objective language of the statutes.
This disrespect for the idea of language and the law, this Humpty Dumpty approach will lower our profession’s esteem. I fear what we will end up with.
That is how licenses and permits generally work, yes. (Hell, they let rando examiners decide whether someone can be denied a driver's license.) Subject to judicial review, ultimately.
OK, so no conviction is required. Got it.
Therefore, Kamala Harris doesn't need to be convicted of insurrection, we can infer it from her support the BLM insurrection of 2020, and disqualify her from the ballot. Good to know.
Are you going to sue pro se to disqualify her from your state's ballot? (No lawyer would sign on to such a lawsuit.) If so, watch out for sanctions.
What support for what BLM insurrection?
Did you somehow miss the violent events during half of 2020?
Yes, in exactly the same way you can go over to Comet Ping Pong with an AR-15 to rescue all the kidnapped children being drained of their adrenochrome so that Democrats can use it as a drug to remain youthful.
This "threat" is so funny. Do it already. What're you waiting for?
Some of us still believe that people are innocent until proven guilty.
So, "terminate" just this part of the Constitution...
With arguments like these I'm reminded of Mencken's quote about normal men and black flags. Seems like Will is pushing for an actual bloody insurrection if he thinks this kind of cutesy base stealing tripe will fly with millions of Americans.
I dunno. An entire Presidential Election was "STOLEN" and the same people just let it happen.
Your threat has gone flaccid with time. And it was never all that impressive (Jan 6).
My objection is your "out of your freeking mind" political opinions which have no place in civil society.
You "sirs" are insurrectionists by going the established government - We the People !
14th Amendment ratified in 1868
>>> Textually & Originally
>>> Historically & Traditionally
* No charges required
* No charge of sedition required
* No charge of insurrection required
* No action by Congress required
* No conviction required.
5 disqualifications with NO Conviction
1869 thru 1872
5 disqualifications with NO Conviction
1869 thru 1872
YEAR of disqualification is bolded
Note:
#7 is from 2022
I would point out, for what it's worth, that your trial free applications were all during what's known as "Military Reconstruction", when the South was occupied territory and largely under military rule.
So, for instance, in the case of William L. Tate, the record says, "The petition alleged that the petitioner had been duly elected Solicitor of the 12th Judicial District, and subsequently had received from General Canby a certificate of that fact; "
Canby was the military governor of the state, which is why Tate had a certificate of election from him.
I bring this up to point out that what we're discussing here is precedent from territory under military occupation.
I'm not seeing a lot of the US under military occupation at the moment. Should we regard such precedents as relevant to time of peace?
Yes, Tate had a certificate of appointment from the commander of the military district. The North Carolina Supreme Court affirmed that he was disqualified anyway by action of the 14th amendment without the requirement of a criminal conviction. It wasn't a military tribunal that heard the case because the state wasn't subject to martial law, or the Constitution suspended as you might expect in a military occupation, it was the 14th being applied by a state court.
I see no indication that 'occupied territory' was cited
as a legal justification .... just 14/3.
14/3 is crystal clear.
Pink? What’s your secret!
It appears that <code> </code> makes text
pink
. Until they change something, maybe.I had no idea.
I use
on other pages
otherwise they won't post the link.