The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Sotomayor Voices Her Frustration with Supreme Court and Advocates
Some candid remarks at the University of California at Berkeley
CNN reports on remarks Justice Sonia Sotomayor gave yesterday at the University of California at Berkeley.
"I live in frustration. And as you heard, every loss truly traumatizes me in my stomach and in my heart. But I have to get up the next morning and keep on fighting," Sotomayor, the court's senior liberal member, said at an event at the University of California, Berkeley School of Law.
"How can you look at those people and say that you're entitled to despair? You're not. I'm not," she said, responding to a question from the school's dean about how students there increasingly feel discouraged by the current court and how it's shaping American law. "Change never happens on its own. Change happens because people care about moving the arc of the universe toward justice, and it can take time and it can take frustration."
According to this Bloomberg report, she also finds the work taxing.
"And to be almost 70 years old, this isn't what I expected," Sotomayor said Monday during an appearance at the University of California, Berkeley's law school. "But it is still work that is all consuming and I understand the impact the court has on people and on the country, and sometimes the world. And so it is what keeps me going." . . .
"Cases are bigger. They're more demanding. The number of amici are greater, and you know that our emergency calendar is so much more active. I'm tired," she said. "There used to be a time when we had a good chunk of the summer break. Not any more. The emergency calendar is busy almost on a weekly basis."
Justice Sotomayor also expressed concern about they way some advocates present their cases to the Court. From the CNN report:
"I can't tell you how often I'll look at (Justice) Neil Gorsuch and I'll send him a note and say, 'I want to kill that lawyer.' Because he or she didn't give up that case. Because by the time you come to the Supreme Court, it's not about your client anymore. It's not about their case," she said. "It's about how that legal issue will affect the development of law and how you pitch it – if you pitch it too broadly, you're gonna kill the claims of a whole swath of people."
These later remarks may well provoke some interesting discussion about the obligations of Supreme Court advocates. It is a fair observation that zealous advocacy for an individual client may come at the expense of a broader cause otherwise aligned with that client's interest, as may happen when a criminal defendant's attorney petitions for certiorari in a case that is likely to result in a pro-prosecution ruling from the Court. Whether this means that lawyers should refrain from such representation, or simply consider the likely downside risks in crafting and presenting arguments, is an important question.
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It could be just ego. Most lawyers would kill to be able to say, "I argued a case before the Supreme Court".
Laywer’s job is to zealously advocate for their client, not some broader cause celebre.
Its the courts job to think broadly (arguably the SC too), thing about the impact down the road, and strike a balance. Its not the lawyer job.
Prof. Adler disagrees, or at least thinks it's a debatable point: These later remarks may well provoke some interesting discussion about the obligations of Supreme Court advocates.
It is the most interesting thing brought up by the remarks, IMO.
She is not a swing vote. Lawyers don't target their arguments at her. Maybe some very left wing progressives that live in a bubble care what she has to say, but they arent winning cases in this court.
That is immaterial to the question presented about the proper perspective for a Supreme Court advocate.
In the scenario Prof. Adler puts forth: "a criminal defendant's attorney petitions for certiorari in a case that is likely to result in a pro-prosecution ruling from the Court" seems to me that's bad lawyering.
But there are times when the interests of the broader legal point and client are not so misaligned, but not utterly in sync. There I do believe it gets to be a nuanced question.
What? A criminal defendant should be deprived of effective representation on appeal because other defendants might not be happy about the outcome?
Yeah you're right, I had that absolutely reversed in my head.
You and I are in agreement, I'm just not communicating well today.
.
Her views have prevailed for decades and will win in the medium to long term. The likelihood that conservatives can turn this culture war around resembles the likelihood that Jesus, Bugs Bunny, Allah, John Blutarsky, the Holy Spirit, and Lisa Simpson will band together and strike me dead before I complete this sentence.
See? Fear of fictional characters -- and of ridiculous propositions -- is misplaced. The culture war is not quite over but it has been settled. The conservatives have lost.
And it's Sen. Blutarsky, of course.
The Otis Day and the Knights bass guitarist will trade four for six and perform with the Doobie Brothers and Steve Winwood (featured yesterday) soon at a shed near you -- don't miss it.
Nietzsche: God is dead.
God: Nietzsche is dead -- his body is over there...
With all due respect, Prof. Adler misunderstands the import of Sotomayor's comments. By her own admissions, she is the epitome of an activist judge. She's fighting for causes, not faithfully construing the law and constitution. Frankly, she's disqualified herself from sitting on the Court. And, in addition, her views suggest more that the role of the Court itself should be questioned, not so much the stance of advocates before the Court.
Do you regard any other current (or recent) justices as activist judges?
I regard any justice who claims that "loss truly traumatizes me in my stomach and in my heart" and vows "to get up the next morning and keep on fighting" as an activist. Not exactly an objective arbiter.
It's of course open to grant Sotomayor AJ the benefit of any doubt. What she recklessly opined, extra-curially, isn't necessarily evidence of a curial & judicial incapacity for legal objectivity.
Not *necessarily*.
What her words (as you quote them) do betray is the quality of a mind willing, without irony, to resort to the most debased forms of psycho-emotivist rhetoric in order to manipulate an audience into reflexive consent.
Yeah, ok, one can't say with absolute certainty that she views herself as an activist fighting for a cause. But is this the standard to which we should hold a Supreme Court Justice, or any judge? More than likely she's an activist nut but it's ok because who knows? she might mean something else entirely different that no one would ever reasonably construe from her actual comments under the circumstances?
They all are, and at that level you have to be to put up with the daily grind those justices must endure.
The worthiness of their activism lays completely within the substance of it. Being an activist for a certain group of favored people like Sotomayor is completely inappropriate. To be an activist for the text and meaning of the Constitution, regardless of the people trying to tap that advantage of law, is the only pure and acceptable form of activism.
How do you feel about Alito? Have you heard any of his speeches?
The Volokh Conspirators and their clinger fans do not wish to address or acknowledge that point.
Or the several related points involving Justice Thomas and his 4F Club (his funders, his friends, his "friends," and his family).
Has he admitted that he "live[s] in frustration" and that "every loss truly traumatizes [him] in [his] stomach and in [his] heart"? Does he vow "to get up the next morning and keep on fighting"? No, no he doesn't. Because he's not an unstable activist.
I broadly agree, save that her extra-curial expression of highly personal opinion may not amount to actual or apprehended bias, such as strictly to "disqualify" her.
Her willing (& reckless) expression of purely personal opinion, in public and at a University with a major national law school nonetheless, does provide (further) post facto evidence which confirms (at a minimum) the rationality of the doubts of any Senator who voted against her appointment.
I am not a US citizen or lawyer, and am actuated by no entrenched party-political partiality one way or the other. But my lawyerly nose is want to recoil at Sotomayor AJ's words. They are an outrage. Principles of judicial propriety, and dutiful respect for curial integrity, ought absolutely exclude as licit her expression of such gratuitously political personal opinions in any public forum.
Ah, but if the lawyers are conservative legal entrepreneurs being paid by conservative donors, they are being paid to push some broader cause celebre. They may have had to search for and recruit the plaintiff for that purpose. Which is what I expect she's complaining about.
I dunno. I commend the NAACP for selecting a good client:
"Parks was not the first person to resist bus segregation, but the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) believed that she was the best candidate for seeing through a court challenge"
People involved in that told me that she was carefully selected -- spotless record, good family, working for a good family, etc.
Hahaha this fucking guy.
gVOR08, but not before they have carefully searched for, recruited, and paid their judges, as in the cases of Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch.
Yeah, man. They're so in the bag. Like, follow the money. They're all plants.
So true, man. So true.
I hope you aren't claiming that practice is exclusive, or even originated with the conservative bar?
Even to the point of paying people to be plaintiffs:
On May 22, 2020, a documentary titled AKA Jane Roe aired on FX, describing McCorvey's life and the financial incentives to change her views on abortion.[5] In an interview conducted for the film shortly before her death, in what she referred to as her "deathbed confession", McCorvey said her anti-abortion activism had been "all an act", which she did because she was paid, stating that she did not care whether a woman got an abortion. "I was the big fish. I think it was a mutual thing. I took their money and they'd put me out in front of the cameras and tell me what to say. That's what I'd say," McCorvey said. "If a young woman wants to have an abortion, that's no skin off my ass. That's why they call it choice", she added."
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey
Interesting question: Was she being paid to lie at the beginning, the middle, or the end? It's really hard to tell when somebody's public statements have been all over the map, and they admit to being a paid liar.
"Laywer’s job is to zealously advocate for their client, not some broader cause celebre."
(Prof. Blackman raises his hand from the back of the room. . . .)
You do understand he is a professor of law, not someone's counsel, right? Professors, like any other citizen, can advocate what they think is good public policy, regardless of the merits of a particular case.
Josh just filed a motion for Tillman to have time at oral argument before the Supreme Court to discuss their stupid "officers of the United States" argument. So there's that.
Which, if you actually read it, says that the goal is to provide grounds for a less broad, sweeping ruling (and thus less knock-on consequences, both known and unknown) than the parties' current arguments would support.
Tillman himself is not a party to the case, but an amicus. So that's a rather odd situation; Tillman himself is advocating a position for the general public. (I have never heard of any non-party, other than the United States, being granted time to argue.)
Me neither, and I doubt he'll get it. Just noting that at least his stated intent is to more closely align the interests of the broader public with those of the individual case, not to argue for a pet academic theory without regard for the consequences as Simon implied.
I was reacting to Apedad's comment about zealous representation. Tillman is no ordinary client, since he is not a party. He is just someone who wants to advocate some general legal position.
I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Prof. Blackman doesn’t actually practice law or have clients.
I have a vague recollection Prof. Blackman has represented some antisocial religious kooks and perhaps some other clingers.
Josh just filed a motion yesterday with the Supreme Court, as "counsel of record" for Tillman.
I don’t consider filing vanity amicus briefs practicing law, or doing so on behalf of your friend representing a client.
Far be it from me to criticize someone for shitting on Prof. Blackman, I’m just confused about the angle here.
Did he represent some of the virus-flouting, gullible, antisocial fools during the pandemic?
All I'm saying is that he seems to think he's a practicing attorney. Has an LLC and everything.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/572/291/
Schuette v coalition dissent
Ricci
both reflect on her understanding of 14A
Your continued inability to understand the legitimacy of an argument akin to that which carried the day in Romer v. Evans says a lot about your ego writing checks your ignorance cannot cash.
Sarcastro make another pathetic defense of sotomayer distaste for the correct constitutional application of 14A
Agreeing with you isn't what "understanding" means, Sarcastr0. It's quite possible to understand something and reject it. Or do you maybe think 7 Supreme court justices failed to understand her argument? They understood it and rejected it!
She wrote, "A majority of the Michigan electorate changed the basic rules of the political process in that State in a manner that uniquely disadvantaged racial minorities."
Which is total bullshit, frankly. What we did in Michigan, (I lived there at the time, campaigned for the proposal, and gladly voted for it.) was to declare that the state could no longer racially discriminate. It's hardly a unique disadvantage, not being able to be the beneficiary of racial discrimination. Rather it just restored racial minorities to the same status everybody else already had.
CNN says, "she criticized some criminal defense attorneys" which is oddly specific. hmmm.
Sotomayor's biggest problem is herself. I've found Breyer's dissents convincing, and Kagan, and almost all the other liberals at times. I cant think of a single of her dissent's where I thought, "hmmm she has a point."** Hers strike me as ideology-filled screeds. Prelogar, who has an uphill battle in this court, typically doesnt go as far as Sotomayor does because Preglogar is a smart laywer trying to move the needle.
As a result, I doubt people will pay much attention to these comments (even if the rest of the court shares these views), because they come off as shrill.
** cant wait to hear her screeching dissent in the NRA case, where even the ACLU and Prelogar agree NY went too far.
I don’t like her writing style either. Especially in dissent. Combo of tone and a bit of doctrinal muddiness.
But I would point out that everything your just wrote could work as applied to Justice Thomas, if you were on the left. (except for the screeching bit which seems gendered language to me)
There are legit reasons to criticize Sotomayor, but yours seem outcome-oriented.
Sotomayor, re COVID “omicron” variant: “We have over 100,000 children, which we’ve never had before, in serious condition, and many on ventilators.”
That’s what went through the mind of Sotomayor as she contemplated the appropriateness of pandemic emergency orders. It was completely false (the risk of COVID to children was hard to distinguish from noise), and yet, a *fact* in her mind.
No wonder she’s freaking out, what with everything going on, and whatever.
dwb68 and I were discussing her WRITING style.
Your collateral attack is not relevant to this discussion.
There are plenty of places in this very post to put a comment just hating on Sotomayor.
Go do that there.
Every time in my career I listened to a fellow worker express those thoughts, I recommended retirement.
Yeah, it's so unbecomingly whiny that I actually wondered if she might be setting the stage for stepping down this term. May have gamed it out and decided she doesn't want to risk being stuck for at least 4 more years.
Interesting because thats how I read it too. If Biden wins and there is a favorable Senate majority, she might retire.In that scenario she can name her successor. Otherwise, I dont see it. She is a career windmill-tilting warrior.
Right now she's got Biden and a razor thin Senate majority. The odds look good that the Democrats will lose that majority, and roughly even that they'll lose the White house.
So, what's she going to do, wait until the election and hope to be replaced during the lame duck session if Trump wins? That seems risky at best.
But she loves fighting the fight, so I'm guessing she'll hang on in the hope of a Biden reelection and a stronger Senate majority that can replace her with a real ideologue, rather than a moderate, which is probably all you could get through the current Senate.
“which is probably all you could get through the current Senate”
The existence of Justice Jackson says otherwise.
Justice Jackson IS a moderate, by the standards of today's Democratic party.
Trotsky was a moderate, by the standards of Stalin
And Bob is a lawyer, apparently, by the standards of backwater Ohio.
Jackson was early in the Biden regime while at this point Republicans could treat any nominee as Democrats did Miguel Estrada and push his nomination into a new term with requests for second grade spelling tests.
Que ?
Ginsburg died on 21 September 2020 and Barrett was on the court within 40 days.
"Too late" to switch out Sotomayor is New Years Day 2025 if the Rs flip the Senate, or 19 January if they keep it and lose the White House.
Lawyers’ ethical obligation is to zealously defend the interests of their clients. Not political causes. Not constituencies. Similarly, the job of a federal court is to decide cases and controversies, not to be a political arbiter.
Futility is relevant. The lawyer who tells the client he’s wasting his money and will surely lose is more ethical than the lawyer who takes the client’s money and goes through useless motions.
But if the client has a plausible case under existing law, the possibility the Court will use the case to completely change the law to the disadvantage of the client and all similar parties does not diminish a lawyer’s ethical obligation to advance the client’s cause. The possibility is simply not the lawyer’s problem.
The ethical lawyer should advise the client of the possibility. But if the client wants to take the chance, the lawyer should accept the client’s decision and take the chance aggressively and zealously.
The truth is, a lot of clients like being hustled. They don't think of it that way of course, but if you say, "You don't have a chance. It would be a waste of money," it makes you look defeatist. Whereas an effective pitch appeals to their gambling instincts and makes you look like a fighter.
Ladies and gentlemen!
In the blue corner, wearing sparkling white trunks and sporting a halo, we have 8-time world champion legal ethicist ReaderY: "It's unethical not to tell a client they're about to waste their money."
In the red corner, we have... this other dude with suspiciously orange-tinted hair: "Grab 'em by the pocketbook. When you're a fighter, they let you do it."
Will the remaining shreds of favorable perception of lawyers survive this night? STAY TUNED to find out!
lol
I basically agree. But if you are before an appellate court, and certainly SCOTUS, the impact of your position on other cases is a legitimate thing for the court to think about, and as an advocate, you need to be able to address those concerns. "My client should win; screw everyone else" is not good advocacy for the client.
It may not be good advocacy for your client base and revenue stream but it is good advocacy for your client. Threading the needle between advocacy and policy/societal impact is best left to others without conflicts of interest if they are that starkly in conflict.
I disagree. Putting forth a losing argument is not good advocacy. And focusing solely on your client to the detriment of everyone else makes it more likely he or she will lose.
Bored Lawyer, what tells you as an attorney you're straddling the line between zealously representing your client and screwing everyone else. What is your personal alarm bell?
PS: Reading about equity, and equitable solutions....hard reading! You lawyers are smart. 🙂
At the SCOTUS level, the trick is to convince the Court that the position that favors your client is also good policy and/or is the most faithful to the Constitution or the statutory provision at issue.
Good policy probably helps, but I think the current court is more concerned with conforms to precedent and the law.
After all if they were just concerned with policy Chevron wouldn't be in peril and the bureaucracy would be completely in charge.
The current Court does not care about precedent, and seems to mostly like a version of the law that aligns with conservative priors.
Going after Chevron is project of conservative ideologues, not some regretful step the Court feels it must take.
I'm not someone who thinks that thinking the law often aligns with your priors means you're outcome oriented. But don't pretend that the current Court is *more* concerned with the law nowadays, just because you like what it's concerned with now.
Roberts and Kagan are quite concerned with precedent, and the rest maybe less so but certainly don’t disregard it completely.
However precedential decisions based on legal realism, or other discarded legal theories, are not, and probably shouldn’t be accorded a lot of deference.
What decisions are based on legal realism? Or are you just saying everything that isn’t your brand of originalism is a discarded legal theory?
So you're an activist lawyer that doesn't actually represent the interests of your clients but others in different but related positions or general policy preferences of your own, got it.
On lawyers not giving up cases. The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts will sometimes take a borderline frivolous case pitched by a desperate defense attorney in order to deliver a legal knockout to the entire cause. A lawyer argued his client mistakenly thought a woman wanted to be taken into the woods to be beaten before having sex with him. Instead of simply saying a properly instructed jury was entitled to convict, the ruling said mistake of fact is never a defense to rape charges. A killer said his girl told him she had slept with another man and that he couldn't be convicted of murder under the circumstances. Not that he was entitled to raise a "heat of passion" defense, which he had done, but that as a matter of law he could not be convicted of murder. Instead of saying a properly instructed jury was entitled to convict, the court ruled that the heat of passion defense was to be abolished in such circumstances.
At the trial level in Massachusetts, a defendant may ask for review of a felony sentence by a panel of three Superior Court judges. If panel doesn't like the argument for a sentence reduction it can increase the sentence instead. That's a strong incentive not to make weak arguments.
Suppose I were a lawyer arguing a case for my client in front of SCOTUS. It could be about anything.
Now if I say during arguments, "Justice Sotomayor, the constitutional argument I am making is 100% detrimental to my clients interest, does not favor my client in any way whatsoever and might cause them to lose this case, but I want to preserve the Constitution and bend the arc of the universe toward justice"
Is that unethical?
Yes
Then why is Justice Sotomayor complaining? Isn't she asking for something unethical?
That’s not the situation she’s describing.
Given some of Sotomayor's doozy opinions and her embarrassing testimony in confirmation hearings, she really doesn't have cause to throw rocks. She's a dim bulb.
"moving the arc of the universe toward justice" seems in tension with just calling balls and strikes.
Sotomayor doesn't believe in balls.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
There are times when the Constitution and law are clear, and the judge's job is to call balls and strikes. There are other times when they aren't clear, or when a discretionary ruling in either direction would be reasonable under the circumstances. And in those cases, I'm in favor of moving the arc toward justice to the extent possible. I think conservatives sometimes forget, or worse don't care, that their narrow view of individual rights causes real people to suffer real pain.
"And in those cases, I’m in favor of moving the arc toward justice to the extent possible. I think conservatives sometimes forget, or worse don’t care, that their narrow view of individual rights causes real people to suffer real pain."
You've just described judicial activism. Interpreting the law to reach a desired outcome (in this case, preventing real harm to real people), limited only by what cannot be plausibly argued. That's fine for a lawyer, not a justice.
Except in cases in which there is zero room for dispute as to what the Constitution means -- the president cannot be a 17 year old who was born in Peru -- there will always be areas in which the law is unclear, and the judge will have no choice but to put his or her interpretation on it. And whichever side loses will be convinced it was judicial activism.
So, pray tell, why is your method in such cases -- whatever it may be -- superior to anyone else's method?
If the shoe were on the other foot, could I live with it = seems like a pretty good common sense method to evaluate
You weren't saying that justices "put his or her interpretation on it." You suggested that justices "move the arc of justice" and then castigated conservatives because their interpretations cause "real harm."
If you think that justices should adopt what they believe to be the best legal interpretation of the law, regardless of the "harm" it may cause, then we agree. But I don't think that's what you originally said.
Here's what I meant: The tyranny of a locally elected legislature can be just as oppressive as the tyranny of King George. If someone is presuming to tell me whom I can wake up next to, I don't actually care if the directive is coming from London or from my state capital. Oppression is oppression. So the presumption should be in favor of individual rights. (Note: I said the presumption; that's not always going to be the result.)
And I think the framers would generally have agreed with that, even if they hadn't fully thought through all the ramifications. Women's rights, racial equality, gay rights, recreational marijuana use, those things were not on their radar. I suspect that had someone sat down with James Madison and explained to him that a woman's right to decide whether to remain pregnant is just as important to her as his right to decide where to worship was to him, he might well have agreed once he'd thought it through.
So I don't think it's an unreasonable leap to say that no, the framers did not mention abortion, but protecting it would have been in keeping with their underlying premises. Same with gay marriage. Same with smoking pot. Same with not getting sterilized if your name is Carrie Buck.
" I suspect that had someone sat down with James Madison and explained "
I suspect he would have had the explainer dragged to Bedlam.
Stop trying to think people 200 years ago think like you.
Oh, I don't think they think like me, but I sure don't think they think like modern conservatives either. Abortion rights is, however, fully in keeping with the Madisonian notion of individual rights. What makes you so sure that if he understood the issue he wouldn't have agreed with me?
"if he understood the issue"
He couldn't. He did not have a frame of reference. Women did not have any legal or political rights to speak of and no one thought they had the rationality to exercise them.
It would have been like trying to explain string theory to a kindergartner.
OK, so the sit-down would have had to start a level earlier with the idea that women are persons in their own right. But I think Madison was smart enough to understand the issues once they were explained.
Abortion rights are fully in keeping with the Madisonian notion of individual rights once you define away any rights the fetus might have.
Where whether/when the fetus has rights that need to be balanced against those of the mother is the whole point of contention.
It's like saying that slavery rights are in keeping with Madisonian individual rights, if you start out by assuming that the slaves are just cattle without any rights of their own. Sure, but that's only because you already built the conclusion into your starting premises.
There is no right to seize someone else's body for nine months. Period, full stop.
When they send you to prison that kinda involves seizing your body, sometimes for more than 12 months.
(and, btw, killing your child after it has popped out is one of those things that can get you sent there.)
Krychek : So the presumption should be in favor of individual rights
1. You don't really believe that though, do you ? The right to sleep beside the person of your (and their) choice - sure. The right to sleep beside your "assault rifle" ? The right not to be required to bake cakes for customers you disapprove of ? You really want Chevron to be replaced with - in case of doubt the person being regulated by the agency wins ? (Which would be great btw.)
2. In principle though, I'd be quite happy with a constitutional amendment that in cases of ambiguity, where there is no obvious "better answer" based on traditional textual analysis, the courts should come down on the side of individual liberty.
3. But judges should not be applying any such rule absent a relevant instruction from the constitution / law. They should be calling balls and strikes.
4. But what does calling balls and strikes actually mean ? It means calling them by reference to your best judgement as to where the ball is in relation to the strike zone as defined by the rules. It means completely ignoring any considerations about whether :
(a) it would make for a more exciting game if you didn't call this star batter out on a marginal call
(b) more people would go home happy if the home team wins
(c) you realise you may have made a bad call earlier and you feel like evening it up
(d) the pitcher is from a poor background and has a great back story while the batter is an obnoxious jerk
(e) it really is time this losing streak came to an end
und so weiter
The way to call balls and strikes, judicially, is to put the blindfold on.
If I may make a topical point - let's take the current case about Trump and Section 3.
If judges are to put their thumb on the scale for "individual rights" then to the extent that there is any ambiguity about the application of Section 3, the courts should decide for Trump - since he is the one with "individual rights" at stake. That the nation as a whole might like to be protected from oath breaking insurrectionists doesn't figure.
But would anyone really be happy with that sort of approach ? Wouldn't we prefer the judges to get down into the weeds, and even if there are difficult points that admit of different interpretations, don't we want them to give it their best shot based on trying honestly to tease out the best interpretation (ie justifiable by reference to the text) regardless of whether that helps Trump, or hurts him ?
I said the presumption should be in favor of individual rights, which is not the same thing as saying that individual rights always carries the day. Often there will be individual rights in conflict and the courts have to balance them. If I want to shout through a bullhorn under your bedroom window at midnight, which right takes priority, my right to free speech, or your right to peace and quiet?
If I were a member of the Colorado legislature, I would be just fine with a policy stating that gays can marry but no one is required to bake them a cake. If I were a judge asked to pass on the constitutionality of the current Colorado statute that requires bake shops to make cakes for gay weddings, I would find the statute constitutional. There is an imperfect overlap between what I, personally, think is good policy and what I think the Constitution allows the legislature to enact. And my concern with allowing the baker a religious exemption is that what happens when someone else wants a religious exemption from statutory rape laws -- if Mohammad could marry a nine year old, why can't I? -- or a religious exemption from laws against child abuse -- the Bible says to beat your children; it's right there in Proverbs -- or a religious exemption from paying taxes. You can probably find someone with a religious objection to pretty much any law, so just throwing open the gates and telling people that religion is a free pass to disregard the law creates anarchy. Maybe it's against my religion to comply with speed limits.
And that's the real problem: living in an orderly society means that people are going to have to do things they don't want to do. So the question becomes to what extent is my conduct harming someone else. Anti-discrimination laws were needed at the time they were passed because entire segments of society were being shut out of much of the economy. I like being able to own guns as much as the next gun owner but it's not an unlimited right; the victims of school shooters had rights too.
I said the presumption should be in favor of individual rights, which is not the same thing as saying that individual rights always carries the day.
I didn't suggest that you did. We both referred to cases of ambiguity.
But the question is, if you offer the judges a policy lightning rod (and its a policy they like and you like) how hard do you want them to hunt for a resolution of the ambiguity without giving any weight to policy, before they deploy the lightning rod ?
Because I don't trust judges to abstain from injecting their preferred values, I don't approve of allowing them any discretion to do so. The preferred value for resolving otherwise unresolvable questions must either be imposed upon them externally - ie by constitutional amendment ....
.... or be absent. If they really can't decide what the text means, they should toss a coin.
Well, I sometimes think a coin toss would produce just as good results as the current system. It would actually be an improvement in child custody cases in which each parent is about equally fit (or unfit) and the judge has to basically invent a reason to award custody to one or the other.
But I don't think you can actually have discretion-free judging, even in constitutional litigation. There are just too many variables and the legislature can't anticipate all of them.
One problem is that, if you view things that way, you have a very strong incentive to think things aren’t clear that somebody who didn’t think that way would find perfectly clear.
Like, in Schuette, most of the Court found that it was perfectly clear that, as the majority said, the 14th amendment hardly mandated what it barely permitted: Racial discrimination. She found that rather murky, because it got in the way of her arc bending.
Another problem is that “narrow view of individual rights” talk.
Look, every time you declare something an individual right, you contract the freedom of action of everybody around them. Especially once you admit the legitimacy of positive rights, that can actually obligate actions on the part of others. “Rights” are a shield, but also a sword. Ask Mr. Phillips in Colorado.
The left are really fond of making their policy preferences into “rights”, so as to insulate them against political opposition, and provide an excuse for imposing them judicially. Which doesn’t mean you won’t deny the reality of rights that are explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution, if you happen not to like them.
Nadine Strossen of the ACLU really encapsulated that in an interview here in reason when she said, “Putting all that aside, I don’t want to dwell on constitutional analysis, because our view has never been that civil liberties are necessarily coextensive with constitutional rights. Conversely, I guess the fact that something is mentioned in the Constitution doesn’t necessarily mean that it is a fundamental civil liberty.”
That’s a pretty unprincipled legal stance, frankly. “Fuck what the Constitution actually says, rights are whatever WE say rights are.” But Sotomayor actually shares that view of rights: Forget what the Constitution might say are rights, rights are, and ONLY are, what SHE thinks should be rights.
Is that a legal stance though ? Maybe it's a moral stance.
It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the rights legally guaranteed by the Constitution are not co-extensive with the rights that ought to be legally guaranteed by the Constitution.
THAT is a perfectly reasonable stance, that most people would agree with. It's not the stance that either Strossen or Sotomayor was/is taking.
Strossen could have taken the position that the ACLU wasn't obligated to defend constitutional rights they disapproved of. Problem was, the ACLU wanted to pretend to be your one stop, defends ALL rights, shop. And they didn't want people to be able to say "Even the ACLU admits it's a right, they just won't defend it." So they lied about whether it was a right.
Sotomayor, theoretically, isn't an advocate, she's a judge. Her job isn't to advocate for the Constitution she wishes we had, but instead to uphold the one we DO have. Says so right in the constitutional oath she had to take to get the job.
“And in those cases, I’m in favor of moving the arc toward justice to the extent possible”
It’s hard to have much of a discussion in the abstract, but I think a problem here is that people don’t always agree where justice lies. And so then the question is, do we bend the arc towards the judge’s personal view of justice, or society’s at large?
Consider, say, LWOP for a 17 year old spree killer. Some people think that sentence is too harsh (‘only 17! Abusive parents! Everyone deserves a chance at redemption!’). Other people think it’s about right (‘He won’t harm anyone again!’). Others think it’s too lenient (‘An eye for an eye!’).
Is a judge’s proper role to decide which view is most just in their own view, or to merely put aside their own preferences in favor of society’s preferences, as enacted by the legislature? I tend toward the latter view.
I picked juvenile LWOP because it is still in contention – the court allowed it in 2021, but who knows what a future court might decide. The court has overruled the legislatures previously, about whether juveniles can be executed for any crime, and whether rapists of any age can ever be executed.
I think those decisions are best left to the legislatures (or, of course, the amendment process).
(n.b. this isn’t an argument for or against LWOP or capital punishment; it’s an argument for how society makes the choice)
Brett, and Absaroka, there is no such thing as a perfect legal system, and there will always be plenty of room to second guess just about anything. But I think over time, we are becoming better and the arc does bend in the direction of justice. There's a long list of things that used to be acceptable in society that no longer are, and it doesn't take too much effort to name them. We no longer tolerate Jim Crow, we no longer accept that women are little more than the property of their husbands, and we no longer accept that hitting your kid with a belt is anything other than child abuse. I'm sure all of those have their dissenters, but I think you would be hard pressed to argue that society hasn't moved beyond all of them.
And the problem with leaving it up to the legislature is that the legislature is the branch of government most impervious to social change, and gerrymandered safe seats don't help. The public is well to the left of red state legislatures on abortion, gay rights, marijuana legalization, even in red states. Under our system, red state legislatures are, and likely will be for a long time, heavily freighted in favor of the most extremist, radical elements, and as a practical matter there's little to be done about it. I'm not at all certain that if, thanks to some benighted red state, Buck v Bell went back to the Supreme Court, that the current court would do anything different, and that worries me.
As for LWOP, I think society is moving in the direction that juveniles should be given a second chance at some point, but I'm not convinced society is completely there yet. If I were a judge and the issue came before me, I would do my best to determine where society actually is. I would give the legislature some deference but not total deference. I might well say we're not quite there yet and bring it up again in another ten years.
And so long as fallible humans run the courts, that's probably the best we can do.
No. In fact, I'll go further and say hell, no. The "discretionary ruling" should always be based on the active case or controversy. The branch of government charged with "moving the arc toward justice" is Congress, not the judiciary. Congress, not the judiciary, is best positioned to make the complex and difficult value judgements about whether and when "individual rights cause[] real people to suffer real pain."
Much of this was also considered in the Federalist papers. (Here, No. 78)
"It can be of no weight to say that the courts, on the pretense of a repugnancy, may substitute their own pleasure to the constitutional intentions of the legislature. This might as well happen in the case of two contradictory statutes; or it might as well happen in every adjudication upon any single statute. The courts must declare the sense of the law; and if they should be disposed to exercise WILL instead of JUDGMENT, the consequence would equally be the substitution of their pleasure to that of the legislative body. The observation, if it prove any thing, would prove that there ought to be no judges distinct from that body."
And, Hamilton wrote earlier about judges being the same as legislators:
"(T)here is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."
Is liberty to be found in the arc of justice?
“moving the arc of the universe toward justice” seems in tension with just calling balls and strikes.
Unless the Constitution is generally well-aligned with the cause of justice. Or at least better aligned than is current jurisprudence.
That's not a particularly spicy opinion.
"the cause of justice"
Whose sense of justice? Yours, mine, the judge's, or society's?
She's not there to do something about the Constitution 'not being generally well aligned with the cause of justice', regardless of whose opinion that is. She's a judge, not a constitutional convention.
I think Sarcastr0’s point is that if the constitution is aligned with the cause of justice, calling balls and strikes fairly and effectively, in accordance with the constitution, will indeed move things in a just direction.
But I thought it was equally his point that if it ISN'T so aligned, NOT calling balls and strikes is justified.
How do you get that out of my comment?
Fair enough, on a second reading I read too much into it.
Can't speak for Sarcastro but there are parts of the Constitution, as currently written, that actively conflict with the cause of justice, and simply calling balls and strikes will do nothing to move the arc forward. If you're an originalist you may just shrug your shoulders and say oh well.
Au contraire.
Maybe there ARE parts of the Constitution, as currently written, that actively conflict with the cause of justice. There are certainly enough parts of it that are indifferent to the cause of justice.
But suborning judges to lie about what the Constitution means is probably about the worst possible response to that realization. Because when you do that, two things happen:
1) The Constitution continues to mean the bad thing, everybody can see that, and at any time you may lose control of the judiciary and face the bad thing being restored, and rightfully so.
Whereas, if you dealt with the bad thing by amending the Constitution, you'd largely forestall that threat.
2) You've staffed the judiciary with liars. Are they only going to tell lies you like? What happens when people who disagree with you suborn harder?
Aim for an honest judiciary, it's hard enough to achieve even if that is your goal, and push to make the actual words of the Constitution mean something better by changing the actual words.
Brett, if amending the Constitution were a practical possibility you'd have a point; why do you keep proposing things that you know can't happen? You could equally as well propose growing wings and flying to the moon.
And no, people who disagree with you aren't liars. They are people who disagree with you. They also recognize that if the suggestion being offered is a practical impossibility then a solution may have to be found elsewhere. They're not willing to simply have no solution and allow things to fester indefinitely.
And that's what I find most repulsive about the originalist position. Problems can't be fixed so we just let them fester. I'm not Dr. Ed; I'm not going to invoke the prospect of another civil war, but I will say that was a major contributing factor to the last one.
"if amending the Constitution were a practical possibility you’d have a point; why do you keep proposing things that you know can’t happen? You could equally as well propose growing wings and flying to the moon."
Number of times someone has grown wings and flown to the moon: 0.
Number of times the constitution has been amended: 27
It's been amended multiple times in my lifetime. The last time was 32 years ago, and that isn't the longest interval between amendments.
You are correct that the amendment process is designed to require a broad consensus. We disagree whether that is a bug or a feature. If you want an amendment, take a page from the suffragettes or prohibitionists and do the work to generate a consensus.
Yes, and once a week or so someone wins Powerball. It's called the law of large numbers. That doesn't mean buying Powerball tickets is a viable retirement strategy for most people. Or that they shouldn't find alternatives to Powerball if they're looking for a secure future.
Amending the constitution IS a practical possibility. Sure, Congress stopped originating amendments back in the 70’s, but that’s not because amending the Constitution was impossible. It had been done often enough, and the 27th amendment demonstrates it’s still possible on the ratification end.
It’s because their own preferences had diverged from those of the general population to the point that no amendment THEY wanted had any chance of ratification, and they didn’t want any of the amendments the public would gladly ratify.
Should we have a constitutional convention, you will see that amending the Constitution is entire possible.
Just not in the ways you’d prefer…
“And no, people who disagree with you aren’t liars. ”
You before that: “Can’t speak for Sarcastro but there are parts of the Constitution, as currently written, that actively conflict with the cause of justice, and simply calling balls and strikes will do nothing to move the arc forward.”
If you’re complaining that simply calling balls and strikes won’t move the arc forward, AND you don’t want to give up on moving that arc, AND you dismiss actually formally changing the rules, what’s left?
Calling balls where there’s a strike, and calling strikes where there’s a ball, that’s all that’s left. Lying.
In our polarized current political environment, I am unable to think of a single thing that would get 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states, though I'm all ears if you think I'm wrong about that. I doubt the current Bill of Rights would make it through.
And no, it's not lying. I offered a perfectly logically consistent example earlier in the thread -- the framers were big on individual rights, so what promotes individual rights is consistent with their vision, whether or not they forgot to mention a specific application. I'm sure you disagree with that example, but it's a difference of opinion, not a lie. Trying to divine what the framers intended from often scanty evidence is what judges often do.
In our polarized current political environment, I am unable to think of a single thing that would get 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states, though I’m all ears if you think I’m wrong about that.
Through that route, you're right. That's been true since 1978, the last time Congress submitted a proposed amendment to the States (it was overwhelmingly rejected). An Article V Convention is the only viable and legal option to amending the Constitution at this time, as such a convention would propose amendments the States/People would be willing to ratify.
As SMP0328 says, I'm not suggesting that Congress originate amendments. Their preferences in that area are so different from that of the general populace that no amendment they want has a prayer of ratification. Most of the amendments they even jokingly propose these days are so unpopular they can't even muster a majority in Congress for fear of the voters.
A constitutional convention circumventing Congress, though, would likely free up that log jam, and result in a lot of viable amendments.
Perhaps first up should be a mandate for periodic constitutional conventions, such as you see in some states.
"I am unable to think of a single thing that would get 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states,"
Perhaps. Your take seems to be "therefore we need to make the process easier". My take is just "seems like there isn't a current consensus for change".
(I will go for Brett's max age for president (and maybe SC justices and congress) amendment ... with enough legwork I could see that passing)
Just to be clear, I do not think the Constitution should be amended by simple majority vote. I think our core governing document requires a little more than that. I do think that 2/3 of Congress plus 3/4 of the states is too high a bar, and I would set it somewhere between them. The Equal Rights Amendment should have been able to pass with the support that it had.
And, again, the legislatures (both state and federal) are in practice the most impervious to social change; they are by their nature conservative, so leaving it to them to amend the Constitution is like leaving it to the fox to write safety standards for henhouses. The very legislatures that are impinging on individual liberty are being asked to pass amendments reining in their power to do so. There's a silly idea if ever there was one. Which is why I'm not as inclined as you are to defer to the legislature.
And since amending the Constitution is not a practical remedy for, i.e., gays who would like to marry or people who would like to use pot, I don't have a problem with a judge finding a creative legal argument so long as at the end of the day it's not a ludicrous argument.
"The Equal Rights Amendment should have been able to pass with the support that it had."
The support it had actually started evaporating before the original ratification period ended. States were starting to rescind their ratifications, actually. This process might very well have continued if the deadline hadn't passed. A bunch of states ratified in a rush, and then had second thoughts.
Anyway, I don't think there's any need for change on the ratification end of things; Again, look at the 27th amendment: States are still capable of ratifying popular amendments.
The failure is on Congress' end, entirely. We need to just cut them out of the loop, entirely.
"And since amending the Constitution is not a practical remedy for, i.e., gays who would like to marry or people who would like to use pot, I don’t have a problem with a judge finding a creative legal argument so long as at the end of the day it’s not a ludicrous argument."
Have you ever considered how that reasoning might be used by people who disagree with you? Looking forward to birthright citizenship being abolished by judicial fiat?
Really, in the end, I think some of what causes advocates of such causes to not try amendments is that the failure of such an amendment would delegitimize achieving it by judicial fiat. So long as an actual amendment hasn't gone down in flames you can rationalize that you're not really imposing constitutional change on an unwilling nation.
Krychek : there are parts of the Constitution, as currently written, that actively conflict with the cause of justice, and simply calling balls and strikes will do nothing to move the arc forward. If you’re an originalist you may just shrug your shoulders and say oh well.
And what would you say ?
I would say do your darndest if you're judge to find a plausible interpretation, whether it complies with originalism or not, that permits a good result (or at least a less-bad result). The Constitution was written in elastic language because the framers knew they couldn't anticipate everything. We have a different understanding today of what they did then. The first rule of judging should be do no harm.
An originalist would tell you that, if it doesn't comply with originalism, then it's not a plausible interpretation in the first place, because you already know that's not what it means.
But setting that aside, I don't see this as a viable answer because people disagree about what constitutes a good result. And nothing was intended to privilege Sotomayor's opinion on that topic.
We elect legislators and executives to determine what would be a good result. The judges are there to enforce the rules.
That's the point of the umpire analogy: The two teams are in there to contest who wins the game, the umpire is just there to make sure the contest follows the rules. They're not supposed to have a favorite team.
That's Sotomayor's problem, really: She does have a "favorite team", and she's bummed because it's getting wiped out on the playing field.
And I will tell you that I think originalism is full of shit when it’s not result-oriented and internally inconsistent.
The basic problem continues to be that amending the Constitution remains for the most part a practical impossibility for the reasons I’ve already given. So, we are left trying to apply an 19th century document to 21st century problems and it often doesn’t work. I don’t think it’s reasonable to just shrug our shoulders and say problems therefore don’t get fixed. And I don’t think it’s reasonable for you to expect people who want problems to be fixed to meekly say there’s nothing to be done about it. I very much doubt originalists would do that if the shoe were on the other foot.
To a certain extent, yes, that results in judges imposing their own values, but that’s going to be unavoidable under any system. So I think we start out with a presumption of individual rights and ask judges to be honest brokers of where society actually is on any given issue. And that’s not a novel request; judges have to make educated guesses about things all the time. And, if they go completely off the reservation, well, the amendment process is just as available to your side as it is to mine.
You’re right that at the moment liberals are not doing well in the federal courts. But that pendulum will swing back. If this were the star wars trilogy, we would currently be in the empire strikes back. The Jedi will return in time.
Let's be clear: You want judges to lie about what the Constitution means. By which I mean you want them to rule that the Constitution means "Y", where the best evidence is that it mean "X". Whatever your excuses for that, that IS what you want, and that's the judges lying.
Your excuse for this is that the Constitution has to be capable of changing, but it's impossible to amend.
But I don't think you're objective about that question, because you really DO want judges to lie about what the Constitution means, and if you're wrong about that, your excuse for the lies evaporates.
So you have to think that amendment is impossible. You're trapped into it.
We've pointed out that something that's already happened 27 times, definitionally, can't be "impossible". Only "hard". And everything you don't try to do looks impossible, doesn't it? The last time Congress actually seriously tried to amend the Constitution was back in the late 70's, and the states decisively rejected the amendment, as is their right.
Let me underscore that: Under our system, the states, voting as legislatures or by popular vote, are entitled to reject proposed amendments. Their buy in for amendments is MANDATORY.
But if you suborn judges into lying your amendments into place, how do the states say "NO"? They can't! Judicial 'living constitutionalism' neatly, and intentionally, circumvents that important veto point, and allows the federal government to 'alter' its own constitution without getting the buy in of important stakeholders, who are entitled to their veto.
This is a fundamental moral issue: It's not the justices' Constitution. It's the people's Constitution. And you're taking away from the people the power to veto changes to their Constitution.
Let's have a convention. I can practically guarantee that, if we do, you'll find the Constitution is entirely capable of being amended. Just mostly not in ways you'd like it to be amended.
Brett, I'm sorry you think that people who disagree with you are lying. That says far more about you than it does about my argument.
I don't think "people who disagree with me are lying".
I think people who say, "The best evidence is that this means "Y", but I'm going to say it means "X" because that's better." are lying.
You understand the distinction?
The Constitution is, for the most part, over 200 years old, written in a different era, by people with different values and understandings of the world. That means, inherently, it's going to mean some things we don't like. It certainly means some things I don't like!
The thing is, it actually, genuinely means those things, and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise. Fundamentally dishonest, regardless of your motive or excuses for pretending otherwise.
I think that, to be honest, we must approach the Constitution with a sublime indifference to whether what it means is good or bad. Just analyze its meaning in a spirit of, essentially, academic curiosity as to what it means, without even the lightest thumb on the scale in favor of a meaning we'd like.
And then, if we find it means something we don't like?
Set out to change the actual words so that they mean something we DO like!
If you approach the Constitution, and what you'd like it to mean plays any role AT ALL in what you find it to mean, to that degree you are being dishonest.
Because it means what it means, and our opinions about the merits of that meaning have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it means that.
Brett, I do understand the difference and you're misapplying it here. You may remember from high school English that any interpretation that can be justified by the text is a legitimate interpretation, whether or not it's what the author intended. The same thing applies here. If the text will support an argument, it's not lying to make that argument, whether or not it was the intent of the framers. It's what the words actually say, and how we understand those words, that control.
"You may remember from high school English that any interpretation that can be justified by the text is a legitimate interpretation, whether or not it’s what the author intended."
That might be acceptable in the case of literature. My son is writing a HS paper on Macbeth, on the theme of "toxic masculinity". I pointed out to him that wasn't a concept at the time, Macbeth was just toxic. But, sure, you can do that, because nothing really hinges on it, what Shakespeare meant doesn't really matter. Any more than it matters that a lot of classic paintings were a lot brighter when they were painted, the paint has literally darkened, so modern viewers might mistake the vibe intended by the artist.
But the Constitution isn't literature, legal entitlements hinge on its meaning, and its meaning is fixed until amended via Article V. You're robbing people of those legal entitlements if you presume to 'change' the meaning of the Constitution without using Article V. It's essentially a kind of judicial embezzlement for a judge to deliberately 'change' the meaning of a provision of the law from what it meant when enacted.
Because the meaning is actually consequential, locked down, and only to be changed by formal procedures.
No, Brett, what the authors meant and what the Constitution says are not the same thing, although there is some overlap.
The same thing is true of legal documents. The first case that first-year law students read in contracts class is Lucy v. Zehmer, which stands for the proposition that what a contract says overrides what the parties meant. Be careful what you say, because you're going to be stuck with it whether you meant it or not.
I'm not arguing for crude original intent, but whatever meaning the text had at the moment it became law, however you care to figure it out, was fixed at that moment. I'm arguing fixity. If the law is not fixed until formally changed, it is nothing but an excuse for those in power to do as they wish.
If you want to change the meaning of the law, you must formally change the words of the law. The formal procedures for doing this are a safeguard against tyranny. The Constitution doesn't exist to enable the federal government, we have plenty of examples of governments that function without constitutions.
It exists to restrain it. The Constitution is the chains the founders wrapped the Leviathan in to tame it. And chains are a joke if the one enchained can redefine them at will.
Article V requires that changes to the Constitution must be approved by the states. Indeed, it allows the states to change the Constitution without the consent of Congress, save for an unfortunate ministerial role that should really be eliminated.
Your 'amendment' by interpretation purposefully cuts the states out of the loop, allowing the federal government to adjust its own chains at will, regardless of what the states may think of the matter.
Is it any wonder that the power of the federal government has grown cancerously since that technique for bypassing the states was legitimized during FDR's administration? The Leviathan is now in charge of its own chains, and shockingly, only loosens them, never tightens them.
That's what I see when you suggest that judges should attribute new meanings to the Constitution to change it for the better.
Yeah, for the better in Leviathan's opinion.
Absaroka, think of justice as the strike zone.
We need to move the arc of the universe away from the fallacy that there is an arc of the universe.
Its the cheesiest cliche so weak minds love it.
re: "by the time you come to the Supreme Court, it's not about your client anymore"
That seems utterly untenable. Attorneys must always focus on their individual clients. If that creates a bad precedent for others, it's up to Congress to change the laws and fix the problem. Sotomayor exposes her own bias and error in believing that the Supreme Court and SCOTUS alone is the source of all fixes.
But how could it be otherwise?
I don't read every case that the Supreme Court accepts, but my understanding was that they typically only take those that allow the resolution of circuit splits, clarify unclear areas of the law, or resolve outstanding questions. Any case they take is going to have implications far beyond any individual client, by design.
So part of her responsibility is to tell attorneys no. Sounds like she's whining that they're not doing her job for her to her satisfaction at worst, or is tired of saying no at best.
(oops, wrong place)
“Cases are bigger. They’re more demanding. The number of amici are greater, and you know that our emergency calendar is so much more active. I’m tired”
That suggests that many lower court rulings are flawed, on several bases.
There are some precedents whose longer-term effects were not anticipated.
There are some cases where both sides should lose.
There are limits to government power that have been ignored (Ninth and Tenth Amendments come to mind).
Aubrey LaVentana, if you want everybody not tired, but exhausted, fill up the docket with 9A and 10A cases. Then the workload of tending just to the first-order aftermath could kill everyone.
You're proving my point. The can has been kicked repeatedly down the road, even when (e.g. GVRs after Bruen) SCOTUS has told lower courts to stop it.
I'm new here and hate to prove up my ignorance of the law; but, aren't courts supposed to resolve cases and controversies and not shift the arc of the universe towards justice? Once one starts working on the arc rather than on the case, it seems you've become more of a Legislative branch than a Judicial one.
I would counter that our society strives to be just, and our justice system, as an instrument of that society, strives for the same.
Purposivism is a method of interpretation that looks not just at the specific intent, but the general purpose of a law when resolving ambiguity.
Or systems and our laws don't always succeed in being just, and YMMV on what just means. And of course statutory interpretation should always start with the text.
But purposivism is not some dead-letter method of interpretation; given ambiguity it is perfectly legit for it to be in the mix.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree there may be value from purposivism and accept it is the way we're built. But, the plan to separate powers seems valuable too.
"The judiciary, on the contrary, has no influence over either the sword or the purse; no direction either of the strength or of the wealth of the society; and can take no active resolution whatever. It may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments."
--Hamilton
Federalist No. 78
I don't disagree - a pure purposivist would be pretty bad. (To be fair I think the same of originalists when it comes to constitutional interpretation).
And I also agree that judicial minimalism is vital to our republican form of government. Though the line between minimalism and doormat-esque acquiescence is trickier than one might think.
I am all about examining multiple different doctrines as Justices make their decisions.
Though the line between minimalism and doormat-esque acquiescence is trickier than one might think.
Why would doormat-esque acquiescence to the law as written be a bad thing for a judge ? After all, they ask us to obey the law, and from time time, jail us for failing to do so - why should we expect less from them ?
I am all about examining multiple different doctrines as Justices make their decisions.
Of course you are - with a whole buffet to choose from a judge can eat what he likes, and leave what he does not. A set menu can be so constricting.
This is pretty dumb. Judges being doormats would not be doing their job of judicial review.
And the rest is telepathic strawmannery.
What form of judicial review did you have in mind, besides doormatesque acquiescence to the law as written and the facts as found ?
Yeah that’s an incredible read. Doormat to the law is not even really coherent.
Judges acting as doormats never strike anything down. Doormats to the other branches. The whole discussion was about separation of powers after all.
Judges acting as doormats to the legislature and/or executive would be piss poor judges. Being doormats to the law is kinda their job. They're not supposed to wrestle with the law and win.
As Brett says, judges being doormats to the law is not merely coherent, but inherent in the job description.
But your strange take on doormatism requires us to revisit your notion of judicial minimalism :
And I also agree that judicial minimalism is vital to our republican form of government. Though the line between minimalism and doormat-esque acquiescence is trickier than one might think.
So you are espousing - and welcoming - a peculiar new version of judicial "minimalism." The traditional version is a philosophy of avoiding deciding what you don't need to decide in order to correctly decide the case. It does not affect the result of the case, it just avoids setting a wider precedent than you have to.
But your version of judicial "minimalism" is a totally different animal. It involves bending the result of the case so that the other two branches are not inconvenienced. You don't want the judiciary to be total 100% doormats to the executive branch, always ignoring the constutional and statutory constraints that the law impose. Just 90% doormats. A sort of super-Chevron applied not just to agencies but to everything, including both statutes and the Constitution.
It's "vital to our republican form of government" that the courts have a big hairy thumb on the scale in favor of the government, and therefore - necessarily - against anyone who isn't the government.
It's "the blessings of liberty", Jim, but not as we know it.
I see I forgot to knock this
And the rest is telepathic strawmannery.
down.
No, it’s simple logic. If you have a choice, without having to follow a rule as to which choice to make, your choice is discretionary. Doh !
Thus :
“at breakfast you may have either an apple or an orange”
necessarily gives you more discretion than :
“at breakfast you may have an apple. If there is no apple to be had, you may have an orange.”
No telepathy required, just simple logic. Which obviously you understand, but are just pretending not to.
Which is also deducible by simple logic.
Purposivism is a method of interpretation that looks not just at the specific intent, but the general purpose of a law when resolving ambiguity.
Nah - purposivism is not a method of interpretation, it is a method of overriding the text passed into law by legislators.
If the "general purpose" of a law had pre-eminent status, the legislators ..... would have included it in the text and stated its pre-eminent status.
Laws do not have pre-eminent purposes, they have conflicting purposes - one purpose is hedged about by concessions to competing purposes. The weight of this purpose against that purpose may be discerned only from the text - which may provide for limitations and exceptions, cost constraints and so on. The balance of purposes is what the text reveals. It is not a secret, concealed by the legislature, to be discovered later in the judge's own fundament.
The idea that judges should ascertain a "general purpose" that the legislators have not bothered to write down is pure snake oil.
When resolving ambiguity.
You took out a strawman.
"Ambiguity" is never lacking so long as it is sought assiduously enough by the purposive judge.
Finding ambiguity in statutory language is not something I advocated for.
Of course not. You occasionally slip up, but usually you manage to avoid saying the quiet part out loud.
I'm glad we agree that the Supreme Court's "major question" doctrine, as well as so-called "common good constitutionalism," are just "snake oil" remedies designed to promote conservative causes.
I don’t think those two are good examples of “purposivism” at work.
“Purposivism” is a theory of interpretation – that the judge when presented with a legal text should rootle about for an overarching “purpose” that the legislators unaccountably failed to write down. In theory, it does not encourage the judge to find a “purpose” favored by any particular faction (other than himself and his own preferences) though since in practice it is lefties and lefty judges who favor “purposivism”, the “purposes” discovered are lefty ones. Purposivism applied by righty judges would not be acceptable to Sarcastro at all.
“Common good constitutionalism” is not an example of purposivism, but a rival theory of interpretation, with an explicit political content – ie to favor “conservative” answers, achieved by defining the “common good” in conservative terms. I agree with you that it is not a good idea. And Prof Vermeule would not like it, at all, if the “common good” was defined in lefty terms.
The “major questions” doctrine – on which I do not claim to be an expert – is not a theory of interpretation, but a specific rule of interpretation – ie it ranks in status well below a theory of interpretation. As I understand it, it is essentally a specific example of a more general rule that when applying a textualist analysis (another theory of interpretation) – the text is not to be read in atoms, but in the context of the legal text as a whole.
So, for example, in a statute dealing with the conservation of wetlands, in a detailed section dealing with fishing restrictions, if a piece of text appears to give an instruction that the President must invade Poland forthwith, that reading of the text is probably not true to the overall context.
This seems to me to be a perfectly sensible and justifiable rule of interpretation.
However, you don’t like it, despite its obvious common sense, from which I deduce that you think that it is not applied even handedly – so that right wing Justices use it to ignore text that would give a left wing answer if it was not used, but fail to use it when so doing gives a right wing answer when using it would give a left wing answer. If true, you have a reasonable complaint.
But I think the reasonable complaint is an “as applied” complaint not a “facial” one. Facially the rule seems neutral and reasonable.
This is obviously not true of “common good constitutionalism” which is clearly politically biased. Nor is it true of “purposivism” which though facially politically neutral, is objectionable for elevating the preferences of the judge above the laws actually passed, thereby encouraging judicial megalomania and reducing the predictability of the legal system. Neither theory of interpretation is consistent with the rule of law.
But the “major questions” doctrine is perfectly consistent with the rule of law, so long as it is applied honestly and consistently.
"number of amici are greater"
Most are useless so if they are a burden, stop accepting them. Its just a custom.
Perhaps it is time for Justice Sotomayor to retire after 32 years on the federal bench.
Were I her manager, I'd diagnose burnout, yeah.
And no wonder: For as far out as she has a realistic prospect of remaining on the bench, there's little prospect of her making a difference. She's not going to be the swing justice on just about anything that really matters to her, she's too far from the center of the Court. She's basically only going to be on the winning side of issues where Roberts agrees with her, or you get some oddball procedural case.
The only way she ends up the swing vote is if the Court gets packed in the next few years.
Or some of the Republican justices could consume so many oversized, donor-provided Wagyu steaks that they start having heart attacks and strokes . . .
Until today, I can't recall any Justice (or even a lower court judge) refer to a case in whose resolution he or she participated as a "win" or a "loss"--at least not publicly. To my mind, any such characterization reflects a mindset somewhat incompatible with the neutrality and objectivity we expect of judges.
Have you ever listened to oral argument at SCOTUS? Judges — on all sides — will talk about a past case and say, "I lost that one."
Well, yes, I have listened to SCOTUS arguments, many of them. I've also argued before that same Court. And yes, I have heard that phrase on occasion (Scalia comes to mind), always uttered ruefully, sardonically, and never with the earnestness, conviction, or evident emotional self-investment that Sotomayor so proudly revealed on this occasion.
Here we go. Now Josh Barro is commenting on Sotomayor’s speech and saying Sotomayor should retire. Shes tired. Shes concerned about the court makeup. She has diabetes. The Senate might not be favorable for 10 years. That didn't take long.
Josh Barro is not worthy of a 'here we go.'
A child in an old woman's body.
Kinda like Trump.
Cutting through her argument in her dissent, it basically boiled down to arguing that 14A was unconstitutional.
Poor Queenie, only able to see in skin colors.
She finds routinely stopping vehicles whose owners have expired licenses to be constitutionally impermissible? Yeah, that's a pretty stupid dissent. It IS in fact perfectly reasonable, as a default, to assume that cars are being driven by their owners. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's perfectly reasonable, not a constitutionally prohibited assumption.
"THOMAS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS, C. J., and GINSBURG, BREYER, ALITO, KAGAN, GORSUCH, and KAVANAUGH, JJ."
She couldn't even get Ginsburg and Breyer... Also she gets the majority opinion wrong IMO.
No, that's not what it 'basically boils down to.'
You just repeat that over and over.
Yeah, that one's not totally unreasonable, but neither is it a slam dunk. The problem here is that the reason for the stop wasn't pretext, the court just found it inadequate. I think that's enough basis for the Court to have gone the other way on the reasonableness of checking to see if the guy had any outstanding arrest warrants.
But it was a close one.
"In a per curiam opinion, the Court held that there was no clearly established law saying that the use of deadly force on a fleeing suspect that posed a danger to others violates the Fourth Amendment."
AND, we're back to her being unreasonable. I don't much like
unqualified immunity, but this was about as legit an application as any. The guy was literally on record saying that he'd shoot cops, and was endangering the public!The cop might have earned some disciplinary action for not doing as his commanding officer told him, but a constitutional violation shooting the guy under the circumstances? There's a reason nobody else on the Court thought it was even a close question.
I see what you are doing here by picking some of her most unreasonable dissents.
No, that's about it.
We have a constitutional amendment whose manifest purpose was to put a stop to racial discrimination. Long after, we, the people of Michigan, got sick and tired of our state government insisting on racially discriminating anyway, didn't care that the Court had wrongly given them leave to do it, and told them to cut it out.
And she wants to claim that the 14th amendment prohibits the voters of a state from telling the state government to stop violating the 14th amendment.
Sacastro - no she did not directly say that, but cutting through the legalize, that is what it boiled down to
It at least argues the 1964 civil rights act was unconstitutional.
Michigan was discriminating on the basis of race which is forbidden by the plain terms of the civil rights act.
joe_dallas said: "Cutting through her argument in her dissent, it basically boiled down to arguing that 14A was unconstitutional."
I looked at her argument, and that looks like what it says.
Well, I don't. Maybe you could explain it to me?
I thought these choices were irony/sarcasm. like "oh really, you didn't think this was reasonable?"
Are you saying this wasn't sarcasm? really? These are the three edge cases that were supposed to persuade me Sotomoyor can be reasonable?
She did not, which is why you keep saying 'boils down to.'
I've been over the specifics with you, but you are uninterested in the actual legal lay of the land, just retreating to repetition of your own hot take over and over.
you were serious lmao?
She couldn’t even get Breyer and Ginsburg on her side in one of them.
If you were serious, you live way too deep in your bubble.
Dissents need to stand the test of time, persuade people, so that they eventually become the majority. Think Brandeis.
These are not the 4a dissents you were looking for. These wont be remembered except for wasting trees and electrons.
I don’t think the rule in Fourth Amendment cases should be “the government always loses”, and neither results she proposes nor Sotomayor’s route to get there strike me as particularly persuasive.
So far you really havent met the bar, lol.
And you did find a single one that was borderline on having a point, congrats.
"In upholding routine stops of vehicles whose owners have
revoked licenses, the Court ignores key foundations of our
reasonable-suspicion jurisprudence and impermissibly and
unnecessarily reduces the State’s burden of proof."
She's literally objecting to the STOP. What she's describing as a "seizure" is just stopping the vehicle to identify the driver. Did you miss that? It's not a "Confiscated something" case, as you might think from the word "seizure", it's a "pulled the car over to see who was driving" case.
Who turned out to indeed be the owner with the expired license! Or else the cop would have just released them to continue on their way.
That's my take, unless he's really doubling down on the sarcasm above.
I thought these choices were irony/sarcasm.
You've never met Queenie? It's 100% serious, and completely brain-dead.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Sacastro - are you trying to argue that 14A doesnt ban discrimination?
"... nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
That position is contrary to 14A.
We've gone over this before. The information bounced off you completely.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/517/620/
""The immediate objective of Amendment 2 is, at a minimum, to repeal existing statutes, regulations, ordinances, and policies of state and local entities that barred discrimination based on sexual orientation."
...
"Homosexuals, by state decree, are put in a solitary class with respect to transactions and relations in both the private and governmental spheres. The amendment withdraws from homosexuals, but no others, specific legal protection from the injuries caused by discrimination, and it forbids reinstatement of these laws and policies."
Adopting similar reasoning is in fact not saying the 14A is unconstitutional. Unless you think Kennedy and the Court said that.
Sacastro doesnt have the ability to understand the argument
14a clearly states "“… nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Sotomayer's dissents argues that Michigan cant have an amendment that requires compliance with 14A.
Nothing you posted or cited supports your position
At the least, I'd expect you to comprehend the difference between a ballot initiative "to repeal existing statutes, regulations, ordinances, and policies of state and local entities that barred discrimination based on sexual orientation." and a ballot initiative which itself barred discrimination, albeit on the basis of race.
The former could arguably violate the 14th amendment, if you insist on interpreting it to moot the ERA's defeat. The latter, rather than violating the 14th amendment, mandated stricter compliance with it.
Joe, thick as I expected.
One last attempt:
Romer v. Evans was about an amendment saying homosexuals couldn't get special rights.
It was held to be unconstitutional. By the reasoning I just laid out above. Kennedy, joined by Stevens, O'Connor, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer.
Now, you can disagree with that reasoning. But you cannot say someone echoing that reasoning is making an unreasonable argument.
And you certainly don't get to say that reasoning holds the 14A unconstitutional. That's rhetoric not reasoning. And rhetoric too overblow to convince anyone else.
Makes you feel clever enough to fail at literacy, though.
Sarcastr0 7 mins ago
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Joe, thick as I expected.
One last attempt:
Romer v. Evans was about an amendment saying homosexuals couldn’t get special rights.
Sacastro thick as a brick
My post and discussion was about Schuette and Sotomayers disregard/distaste for 14A, not Romer. Stay on topic
The only point you've managed to make is that you're stupid and have no ability to think outside of skin color, so you project your failings onto others.
Race, race, race, [blahBlahs], [blahBlahs], race.
People like you see grey any time they don't like what's spelt out in black and white.
.
I thought those guys saw plenty of grey . . . they're color-blind (just ask 'em)!
Some people think of skin color a lot . . . and publish vile racial slurs habitually.
It's why most of this blog's fans are here.
Carry on, bigoted clingers.
Kaz - Sacastro has consistent problems being intellectually honest.
No, that's not true either. There are cases about it, even.
No.
Not even if you don't know the precedent, does it actually look like like she says the 14A is unconstitutional. You need to strain to read stuff in a bad light, based on ignorance of past practice, to say that.
Sacastro - She is saying two things in her dissent
A) that discrimination is permissible under 14A
B) michigan can not ban discrimination , at least not discrimination she likes.
Similar to how she tried to bury the Ricci firefighters case.
.
Are you similarly dismissive of Justice Thomas' many lonely rants?