The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Insurrection, Rebellion, and January 6: Rejoinder to Steve Calabresi [updated with brief further rejoinder]
"Insurrection" and "rebellion" should not be conflated. But the events of January 6 readily meet the criteria for both.

Steve Calabresi has posted an impressively swift response to my post explaining why the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol was an insurrection. But I remain unpersuaded. Steve's emphasis on the use of the word "rebellion" - in addition to "insurrection" - in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment only reinforces my point.
Steve relies on the legal rule of noscitur a sociis, which is the idea that words in a statute should be understood by reference to their "associates," in this case that "insurrection" should be understood as similar to "rebellion" because in Section 3 both occur in the same phrase ("insurrection or rebellion"). He then argues that "rebellion" is limited to uprisings on a scale comparable to the Civil War.
While it is reasonable to read the two words together, one can't be interpreted in such a way as to render the other redundant. That would violate another longstanding rule of legal interpretation: the canon against superfluity, which, as Justice Scalia and Bryan Garner explain in Reading Law, requires courts to give effect to "every word and every provision" in a law and to ensure that "none should be needlessly given an interpretation that duplicates another provision" (quoting US v. Butler (1936)). While "insurrection" and "rebellion" may overlap and be similar, it is perfectly plausible that one may include some uprisings too small to be included in the other. If they were completely identical, one term would be rendered superfluous. Thus, my explanation of how the January 6 attack fits any plausible definition of "insurrection" (including Steve's own preferred definition from the 1828 Webster's dictionary) remains unrefuted.
In addition, the events of January 6 fit any plausible definition of "rebellion," as well - including, once again, Steve's own preferred definition. There is no reason to believe that a "rebellion" must be on a scale comparable to the Civil War, or anything like it. There is nothing incoherent or implausible about the idea of a small-scale rebellion that is quickly suppressed. Such rebellions are actually far more common than large and prolonged ones!
Consider the two most famous pre-Civil War events in American history generally labeled rebellions: Shay's Rebellion (1786-87), and the Whiskey Rebellion (1793). Both were on a scale similar to the January 6 attack. Each involved no more than a few thousand rebels (only about 600 in the case of the Whiskey Rebellion; many fewer than January 6). Each occurred in one part of just one state (western Massachusetts and western Pennsylvania, respectively). The number of combat fatalities (9 for Shay's Rebellion, 3-4 for the Whiskey Rebellion, 5 on January 6) is also similar.
The two 18th century uprisings did take longer to suppress than January 6 did. But that was in large part because a comparable number of rebels were spread over a larger area. Plus, the military response to the two revolts was slow to develop and eighteenth century transportation technology made it harder to move troops quickly than is the case today.
I would add that the objectives of Shays Rebellion (debt relief) and the Whiskey Rebellion (repealing the federal whiskey tax) were more limited than those of the January 6 rebels (seizing control of the most powerful office in the land and denying it to the rightfully elected candidate). In that respect, January 6 was actually more clearly a rebellion than either of the other two.
Relying again on the 1828 Webster's Dictionary, Steve defines "rebellion" as "An open and avowed renunciation of the government to which one owes allegiance; or the taking of arms traitorously to resist the authority of lawful government; revolt." The January 6 attack easily falls within this definition. The people who attacked the Capitol clearly took "up arms" and "resist[ed] the authority of the lawful government." Indeed, their purpose was to enable Trump to illegally continue to wield that authority. The fact they believed it rightfully belonged to him does not change the nature of their actions, for reasons I outlined in a previous post. Notice also that Steve's preferred definition indicates no minimum scale that an uprising must reach before it can be considered a "rebellion." A small "revolt" qualifies no less than a big one.
Steve asks whether, under my approach, the 2020 "Black Lives Matter" riots also qualify as insurrections. In my view, the answer is probably not, because the rioters did not seek to take control of the powers of government. Unlike the participants in the Whiskey and Shays' rebellions, most didn't even seek the repeal of specific laws. But if some did seize government power (the case of the "CHOP" group, which took control of parts of the Seattle for several weeks may be an example), then their actions do qualify as "insurrection." I have no problem biting that bullet.
Of course, only those participants who previously held various types of public offices can be disqualified under Section 3. Some Seattle officials apparently helped CHOP. If Steve - or anyone else - wants to get these people disqualified from future office-holding under Section 3, I think they might have a good case.
In sum, January 6 was an insurrection - including under Steve's preferred definition of that term. And, to the extent it matters, it probably counts as a "rebellion" as well.
UPDATE: Steve Calabresi has posted an additional rejoinder responding to this post here. He argues that Section 3 applies only to "rebellions" or "insurrections" that are comparable in scale to the Civil War, which is the "paradigm" case the section was intended to address. But Section 3 speaks in general terms of insurrection and rebellion, and requires disqualifying all covered government officials who "engage" in them. That strongly suggests it was meant to apply to all insurrections and rebellions, not just some subset that may be seen as similar to the Civil War. Steve provides no textual or original meaning evidence to the contrary.
It would make little sense to exempt insurrectionists from the ban merely because their attempts to overthrow the government were ineffective and relatively easily crushed. The whole point of Section 3 is to prevent such people from getting a second chance to subvert the republic. People who try one insurrection that fails miserably may be more effective the next time around! They could even learn from their previous mistakes.
The Constitution has many provisions that were enacted in response to a "paradigm" case (or cases), but nonetheless apply more generally. The Fourteenth Amendment's restrictions on racial and ethnic discrimination was enacted in response to southern states' oppression of blacks, but nonetheless protects other groups, too, and ban state-sponsored racial discrimination that takes forms different from those of the Black Codes of the 1860s. The First Amendment was enacted in response to specific types of censorship and oppression of religious minorities practiced by eighteenth century Britain, but nonetheless protects freedom of speech and religion more broadly.
Finally, it is not true the mob attacking the Capitol "peacefully dispersed on Donald Trump's request." They fled because they were defeated after extensive fighting, and reinforcements arrived to assist the initially overwhelmed Capitol Police. Trump did not issue any request to disperse until after it was clear that the attack he inspired was on its way to defeat. Until that point, evidence indicates he was cheering on the mob (much of it summarized by the Colorado Supreme Court in its Section 3 decision), and trying to use the attack as leverage to pressure members of Congress into refusing to certify the election results.
At this point, we are probably in the realm of diminishing returns in this exchange. I will leave off, unless some significant new point is raised. Many thanks to Steve for his insights.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Ilya having to post walls of text over and over again, having clearly thought about it enough to develop complicated winding arguments, and being clearly afraid he can’t convince people just goes to show even he doesn’t really believe things are as slam dunk as he tries to make us believe.
I agree ...
The the volume of posts indicates that Ilya is clearly a party with a deeply seated agenda. Unfortunately, this also diminishes the value of his assessment.
Somin would just say he is Russian Trump-hater and America-hater. Everything else is superfluous.
What does the volume of Prof. Volokh's posts concerning transgender issues indicate?
What about the frequency at which this blog publishes racial slurs?
The volume of bigoted content presented every day of every year at this conservative blog?
Carry on, clingers. But only so far as better Americans permit; for example, at UCLA.
And in particular, this is thoroughly wrong:
Ilya the Lesser is begging the question, in the sense of assuming the conclusion he wants. The words should not be read to be redundant, but that does not mean the only plausible threshold of "insurrection" is super low -- to the contrary, Somin hasn't rebutted or even engaged the noscitur a sociis argument at all.
Your infantile name-calling makes your arguments so much more persuasive.
Indeed. Mr. Somin's hysterical hubris on this matter is becoming tedious.
Yup totally agreed. He's throwing so much out there, because it's clear he is wrong.
Since Ilya used the Beer Hall Putsch as a comparable example to Jan 6th does that mean Hitler's only involvement with the Putsch was sending a vaguely worded short telegram and then sending a couple other telegrams telling the Putschers to stop? Wow, thats pretty interesting.
I share general doubts that Trump intends to be a genocidal mass murderer. His combative approach is more suggestive of Hugo Chavez, who failed in a 1992 coup, but would devastate Venezuela from 1999 to 2013.
And I seem to remember machine guns being involved in the Beer Hall Putsch. The protesters neither had nor used machine guns on Jan 6th.
How long before harsh language will constitute "rebellion" and "insurrection?" I mean, harsh language was sufficient for Colonial Marines fending off xenomorphs.
https://youtu.be/ZxcljnLb95M?t=68
Heres some comments by Dems that are similar if not more incendiary than Trump.
Maxine Waters: “If you see anybody from that cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store… you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them.”
Nancy Pelosi: “I just don’t know why there aren’t uprisings all over the country, and maybe there will be.”
Kamala Harris: “Protesters should not let up” and “They’re not gonna let up and they should not.”
Sounds pretty insurrectiony to me!
AmosArch, you mystify me. How is any of that more incendiary than, 'Hang Mike Pence?" Or is it your claim that Trump had nothing to do with that? Never wanted it to happen, did not see it coming, never tweeted goads to those attacking the Capitol, did not watch and do nothing while they chanted and stalked the Vice President—is that your point?
WHO SAID "Hang Mike Pence"?
Trump posted a tweet that "Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution" which fired up the mob further. Subsequently Trump defended those chanting "Hang Mike Pence", saying it was "common sense". And later still it came out that Trump was chanting along with what he heard from the mob on TV.
Sadly, the inventiveness of the mob has mostly gone unheralded:
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/mike-pence-on-that-time-when-the-insurrectionists-wanted-to-hang-him
What did Trump chant, and on whose testimony do you believe that? The woman who said that Trump lunged at his driver in another insurrection?
The woman who said that Trump lunged at his driver in another insurrection?
Actually, she said she was told that by Joe Ornato.
“The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, ‘Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We’re going back to the West Wing, we’re not going to the Capitol,’” she said Mr. Ornato told her. “Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel.”
The report said that “another witness, a White House employee with national security responsibilities, provided the committee with a similar description: Ornato related the ‘irate’ interaction in the presidential vehicle to this individual in Ornato’s White House office with Engel present.”
The committee’s report said Mr. Ornato, when questioned by the panel, said that he had no memory of the conversations recounted by Ms. Hutchinson and the other witness, and that “he had no knowledge at all about the president’s anger.”
"No memory."
Cassidy Hutchinson is not the liar here.
What's your basis for thinking that, beyond the desire the think the honest person is the one telling you what you want to hear?
Did you read the quote you replied to? It includes corroboration.
Also look at who has what to gain.
Bellmore, I read Hutchinson's book. She is without doubt an idealist, and at the time a very young and inexperienced one—an astonishing choice for the position she held, and the authority she was forced by dereliction of her boss to exercise. The book is a remarkable, naive narrative, often disclosing information her enemies might use against her.
She seems super-competent, energetic, and astonishingly well- organized. That last bit will make it hard for her adversaries to attack what she said. She was a champion record keeper. But also, so deficient in guile you often wince to hear her takes on what was going on around her.
Both in the book, and in her televised testimony, she is punctilious to detail the extent and source of her knowledge about what she reports. I take that as a field mark of reliable narrative, and she takes it to an unusually thorough level.
In its naivety the book presents a convincing picture of a person who took loyalty and reliance toward the leaders she served to unwise extremes. Competent legal advice finally sobered her up, after she had put herself in jeopardy by allowing Trump's legal organization to advise her.
Bellmore, I meant to add this, but the edit function timed out on me:
When Hutchinson ditched her Trump-supplied lawyer, she anticipated that she was putting herself in actual danger. She knew by then that she was about to defy the world's leading practitioner of stochastic terrorism. That is the guy you are defending. You ought to give that some thought.
Look I found another ‘insurrection’ here! Complete with references to hanging and burning politician s.
rollingstone dot com slash politics slash politics-news slash bush-and-the-texas-death-machine-189483
and here
southdakotapolitics dot blogs dot coms slash dot a slash 6a00d8341c046f53ef0133ec403a23970b-pi
and here
bakersfieldnow dot com slash news slash nation-world slash gallery slash donald-trump-effigy-hangs-from-tree-with-noose-around-its-neck questionmark photo equals 1
Looks like Trump is in plentiful company with ‘insurrections’ all over the place all the time. Why aren’t our jails bursting at the seems with ‘insurrectionists’? How come only the ones on Jan 6th 2021 count?
"The number of combat fatalities (9 for Shay's Rebellion, 3-4 for the Whiskey Rebellion, 5 on January 6) is also similar."
Two heart attacks, a drug overdose, and a stroke victim, "combat casualties". The last of that respect just went "poof".
Yep. Only one killed on Jan 6. By police.
DC Police officer Jeffrey L. Smith was killed in the line of duty.
"that Officer Smith sustained a personal injury on January 6, 2021, while performing his duties and that his injury was the sole and direct cause of his death."
Nope, that guy died of suicide on the 15th.
"In the line of duty" was the determination which I quoted. The suicide occurred because of the attacks he suffered on January 6th.
You also said the January 6, 2021 injury was "the sole and direct cause of his death." Sorry, but committing suicide is a pretty strong intervening cause.
I didn't say that; I quoted the D.C. Police and Firefighters’ Retirement and Relief Board who said that. If a police officer were stabbed, he might die later from bleeding out or whatever consequence of being stabbed; the stabbing is still the sole and direct cause, if he would not have died but for the stabbing.
"Killed in the line of duty." We are getting into "Winston Smith" territory now.
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Not Ashlii Babbitt. Not anymore.
Happy new year, everyone!
That wasn't funny when it was Joe Paterno.
Seriously, "Reverend" what did you have on Joe Pa that made him ignore your E-ville?
Don’t feel too bad for Ashtray Babbitt’s badass Marine husband…he has a little hottie spare wife for times just like this. 😉
And the cartoon Ilya posted was not about Shay's Rebellion but the CAUSES OF IT -- a farmer fighting with a corrupt tax collector.
Seriously. During the Whiskey Rebellion, tax collectors were tarred and feathered by masked individuals. At Bower Hill, a literal gunfight occurred. Shay's Rebellion included two cannons firing grapeshot into a rebel militia (that was obviously armed and marching on the Springfield armory).
Was there a single instance of an armed individual participating in Jan. 6, 2021?
I propose we use Calabresi’s definition of insurrection from 2021, when he unambiguously called Jan 6 an insurrection that should bar trump from being on the ballot:
He wrote “Mr. Trump’s most egregious impeachable offenses are inciting a violent insurrection against his own vice president, the Senate and the House of Representatives…” and “Mr. Trump’s incitement of an insurrection qualifies, without question, as an impeachable offense.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/opinion/trump-impeachment-bipartisan.html The context was an article supporting the second impeachment of Trump, arguing Trump should be disqualified again. Sure, 14th amendment is a different procedure, but it is just as un-democratic to restrict a president from serving again by impeachment without the voters deciding as it is for the Supreme Court (with 3/8 being appointed by Trump) to keep him off the ballot.
Other quotes in that article: “It is both appropriate and necessary to bar Mr. Trump from the White House even if, as incredible as it may seem, some voters might wish to vote for him again. We should not allow that to happen. He tried to steal the election and incited a mob to abet his wrongdoing. He is a danger to the nation and must be removed immediately and disqualified from ever holding public office again.”
“Removing from power at once a president who has incited an attack on his own government certainly qualifies as an emergency situation.”
That was a different "Steven Calabresi", surely?
Pre-stroke?
It does seem closer to English.
Not sure why. Calabresi has been posting about what counts as insurrection for fourteenth amendment purposes. Congress is free to define insurrection however it wants for impeachment purposes.
It's nicely refreshing to read Professor Somin's clear-headed, well-reasoned remarks. In a rational universe, his comment should be enough to put to bed the moronic arguments made by those who want us to believe that what happened three years ago today -- despite what we saw with our own eyes -- was a fun-filled picnic combined with a tour of the Capitol by cheerful, photo-taking tourists. But since the VC has never been mistaken for a rational universe, no doubt we can expect a hundred or two vulgar, ad hominem, nonsensical responses that will probably still be going on well into Sunday.
Agreed. The exclusion language in the Fourteenth Amendment cannot be plainer. "Strict constructionism" used to be a conservative talking point.
(2) Some GOP fence-sitters argue that we should wait until November and count on the voters to stop Trump. But what if they don't? There is a real chance Trump might win in this highly polarized and irrational country. Blocking him after he has won the November election would provoke a far more dangerous political crisis than SCotUS blocking him now. Or SCotUS could let him in, and we would spend the next four years worrying what he is doing to make sure future elections go his way. Other vital challenges facing us will be overlooked.
He should be banned because he might try to get others banned?
He should be banned because he might not want to leave office, and everyone will just sit around? Who are these military traitors who would support that?
He should indeed lose for reasons I state over and over. But we should not sacrifice principles by banning political opposition over exaggerated claims that have in no way convinced the country. Much like the impeachment where his supporters declined to remove him. You have failed at that, unlike the civil war, or these various rebellions. One politically motivated side is making loud noises that only their side, as standard preaching to the choir, rah rahs.
He tried to steal the election and should have been convicted by the Senate and barred from running again as a result. You are correct he survived that vote, but only because enough Senators were cowards, worried about losing their jobs (as Liz Cheney eventually did).
So yes, enough of the country wasn't convinced (a recent poll found 62% of Republicans think Biden stole the election). But at some point, facts ought to matter. This was not an exaggerated claims. Instead, we have the rank-and-file agreeing to Trump's delusion, buttressed by the cowardice of other elected officials.
Shay's men were armed with military weapons -- many were Revolutionary War veterans using guns from that conflict. They had already shut down the county courthouses INDEFINITELY and were marching on the Federal Arsenal in Springfield.
That's a wee bit different from a frat party that got out of hand. Jan 6 was a loud event to ENCOURAGE legislators to do something. Daniel Shay's men would have instead shot them.
Can we not see the difference Ilya?
So much for the edit function...
If we use the Ilya definition of Insurrection (and responsibly for) then Chuck Schumer's "reap the wirlwind" speech and the related protests outside the homes of SCOTUS justices, including the assassination attempt on Kavanaugh, would constitute an "Insurrection" on the part of Schumer.
So can we boot Chuckie out of the Senate because of that, Ilya?
Schumer asserts that his comments were "a reference to the political price Senate Republicans will pay for putting these justices on the court and warning that the justices will unleash a major grassroots movement on the issue of reproductive rights.". Schumer has certainly been shown correct after the Dobbs decision, unlike Dr. Ed 2 and predictions of civil war. The man who planned to kill Kavanaugh and himself, but instead turned himself in, acted over two years later, so that hardly meets the imminence requirement for incitement.
By the same token, Trump said "Peaceably Protest."
He also claimed no plan to send the mob to the Capitol.
Some dumbasses apparently still consider Donald Trump credible.
So why did he very clearly and specifically address that remark to Gorsuch and Kavanaugh in the context of judicial decisions?
Politicians lie through their teeth. You don’t have to endorse and repeat their lies.
I think at this late stage, we should take a moment and remember that the Law is but an institution that the people indulge in when they are contented with its benefits.
If a democratic election hinges on the technical, law nerdish, definitions of insurrections or rebellions, rather than the actual participants political lived understanding of what they were attempting, then all this debate and contention will become the moot detritus of chattering intellectuals cast aside as the people move on to create new law in the wake of new political actions.
If the people walking into the Capitol that day did not perceive their actions as rebellion then they were not rebelling. To argue otherwise is to make a god of words over actions and intentions.
We cannot have a democracy where only rarified legal scholars can know what is permissible and what is not. The law must be pruned back to where it is commonly accessible or our Republic will fall.
If the people walking into the Capitol that day did not perceive their actions as rebellion then they were not rebelling. To argue otherwise is to make a god of words over actions and intentions.
What were their intentions then, if not to rebel? From my perspective, their intentions seemed clear. They didn't agree that Biden won the election, and they intended to "fight like hell" just as Trump implored them to do. Mike Pence had already told Trump that he wouldn't go along with the plan laid out in the Eastman memo. There weren't nearly enough Republicans in Congress saying that they were willing to vote against accepting any state's electoral votes. Violence was the only way Trump was going to stay in the White House after Jan. 20.
Well put
It is an important observation to make at any stage. What are your views regarding the role modern propaganda performs in changing people's views regarding the reality they perceive?
Is it that such propaganda does not exist, or that it is not significant? Is propaganda becoming more or less successful? What happens if it achieves success? And does it matter who funds the propaganda?
Moreover, the people "walking into the Capitol" were by and large not party to the alleged plans of the people who positioned them there. I doubt many of them had read the Eastman memo, for example. Even more over, almost none of those people were oath-takers who are now being potentially barred from office under the Constitution. For that reason, they do not matter.
Except to Trump, of course, who declined to pardon any of them during his last three weeks in office, most likely so that he could shamelessly use them as martyrs in his subsequent campaign.
What are your views regarding the role modern propaganda performs in changing people’s views regarding the reality they perceive?
Is it that such propaganda does not exist, or that it is not significant? Is propaganda becoming more or less successful? What happens if it achieves success? And does it matter who funds the propaganda?
My view is that in a media world where private editing is a thing of the past, and content publishing decisions get made per-reader by algorithms, the notion of propaganda has become a quaint anachronism. Readers each get a personally tailored alternative reality. None sees what the others get, or has much notion that what they get is notably different. On that basis, the notion of unified public opinion fades to an aspirational wisp.
The process of research while using the new media feels like the personal agency which formerly drove archival research, but delivers instead a malign concoction of lies and over-confidence. Folks think mistakenly that they have discovered stuff for themselves, so they have put to sleep the reflexive skepticism which formerly defended all but the most gullible against sales efforts, including those used to sell political propaganda.
That is information chaos. So long as algorithms drive content feeds, and private editing prior to publication is not a practical requirement, there will be a downward spiral in the public life of the nation.
People's expectations will adapt.
Explain how to do it. I can't imagine any way I could do it. I can't imagine any way anyone I know could do it. Not the professional journalists, not the ivy educated lawyers, not the MIT trained economics PhDs. How is Joe Keyboard supposed to do it? Does he do it with his salt-of-the-earth insight into what really happens, here and abroad?
Folks think mistakenly that they have discovered stuff for themselves, so they have put to sleep the reflexive skepticism which formerly defended all but the most gullible against sales efforts, including those used to sell political propaganda.
Folks will stop thinking that.
Let's adopt the Israeli Supreme Judicial Court's version of the law where rule by the Judges is absolute. That court expanded the standing requirement and gave itself the power to remove government ministers and order troop movements. It would be amusing to see an Israeli parliament protest court rule by disbanding and letting the court handle all aspects of governing.
Let's adopt it after better Americans enlarge the Supreme Court.
You assert "The people who attacked the Capitol clearly took 'up arms'" but just asserting "clearly" doesn't make it true. There was almost no one, if not zero people, who used any such weapon on Jan 6th. The only person a firearm was used against was Ashli Babbitt, and that wasn't any of the protesters. If it requires "taking up arms," as you seem to agree is a plausible interpretation, which I would take to mean taking up arms in the Second Amendment right to bear arms sense, then it seems nearly impossible to plausibly assert that Jan. 6th was an insurrection.
What falls under "any such weapon"? Insurrectionists injured 140 police; that they chose not to use the guns they had is good, whether it was prudence or cowardice.
140 officers were injured because of the incompetence of their command -- it's why the Chief was fired.
One might also interpret their failure to bring firearms as an indication that they did not intend to engage in rebellion or insurrection.
I like how it took you all of two sentences to shift from "arms" to "firearms."
Let's not forget that flagpoles in the hands of trained protesters can be just as deadly as F15s, which Biden assures us would be needed if you want to fight against a country. Or that the parading on Jan 6 that many were charged with was basically the same as the shelling of Fort Sumter.
Joe Biden is wrong about the 2nd Amendment, just as you are wrong about the 14th Amendment (I'm guessing). There was a real plan to foil the transfer of power on January 6, 2021; the means of achieving it were insufficient in this case.
But I'm sure they will try to be more effective next time. Aren't you?
I guess we will just have to wait to see what the FBI can cook up for the 2024 election. Another letter from the same 51 former Intelligence Officers will not do the trick, nor will hiding the evidence of the veracity of Trump's accusations regarding Biden's criminality, nor apparently will their working hand in hand with Dem's to fabricate evidence against Trump. But you go on about a single riot from the right, and keep ignoring the what the left has done to our country.
Because you can defeat a nuclear-armed superpower with some sticks and a pair of goat horns. Ever hear of Mount Weather?
Commander Spock was attempting to build a tricorder using stone knives and bear skins.
Weak sauce, the Professor built a record player using palm fronds.
Tell us more about this real plan.
What I do know is that there was a real plan to foil the transfer of power on January 6, 2017!
It's just disappointing to see a grown man believing that a ragtag bunch of unarmed protesters presented any real threat to the authority of the US government.
It’s equally reduculous to think a couple of dozen harmless completely unarmed Saudi tourists (box cutter knives are a lot less than what a lot of the Jan 6 people packed) who just wanted a little fun having a turn at the plane controls represented any sort of threat either. Yet people talk nonsense about it as if thousands of people were killed. Impossible!
The J6 protesters did not kill anyone. They just sought some political attention.
They didn't just want attention. They had a purpose.
They thought they were helping Trump stay in office. That they thought that was justified is irrelevant. Their intent was to help the loser stay in office and they used violence in an attempt to achieve that end.
On the other hand, the J6 rioters are no longer relevant to current events. They are not running for office.
So what they thought they were doing is of interest only for their trial and sentencing. It is what the Trump-level conspirators thought they were doing which is relevant today, mainly because of the 14th Amendment, but also the federal criminal trial.
In that context, the J6 rioters were simply the tool with which the Trump-level conspirators allegedly attempted to derail the Electoral College certification and trigger an alternative process for the selection of the next President.
They were a tool of the Tump-level conspirators, but it's not irrelevant that they shared a common purpose with the Trump-level conspirators and, so, their violence can be imputed to the other conspirators. While the low level people didn't know the entire plan and some of the rioters were just rioters, you are exactly right that it is the intent of the Trump-level conspirators that is most important, including Trump himself. And his statements re Mike Pence, both with respect to his blasé attitude toward hanging and his months later assertion that Pence should have "overturned" the election are all very damning in that respect.
Well if they had a purpose, they must be guilty of insurrection!
What do you honestly suppose was their purpose? To urge Congress and the 6 individual states where the outcome was narrowly decided to examine how the election was carried out? Or to use the force of arms to overthrow the political order and keep Trump in office?
Yes, their purpose was to urge Congressional action.
Sure. Nothing urges congressional action like breaking past barricades and through doors and windows, wandering the halls calling for the Speaker to come out from hiding, after chanting to hang the Vice President because he wouldn't go along with the plan.
You are hiding a lot of threats and violence behind the anodyne seeming term "urge."
.
No. They had already concluded, as Trump had told them, Biden stole the election. They were there to force Congress, using violence if necessary, to do whatever it took to declare Trump the winner. Perhaps a temporary step to examine those 6 states might have been enough for that day. But, that would have only been a means to an end.
It's long past time to drop the crap that these folks were just trying to see if the election was fair. It was, and they were never going to be convinced otherwise.
What do you honestly suppose was their purpose? To urge Congress and the 6 individual states where the outcome was narrowly decided to examine how the election was carried out? Or to use the force of arms to overthrow the political order and keep Trump in office?
Easy question. I take #2.
So let's see.
Suppose I think the bank has made a mistake with my account, and I have $10,000 more than the statement shows.
My plan is:
1. Go talk to the bank, show them the evidence I deposited the extra funds, and ask for a correction.
2. If that fails, complain to the Comptroller of the Currency and state bank regulators.
3. If that fails, and I remain convinced, file a lawsuit and present my evidence in court.
4. If the court rules against me gather up some friends and break into the bank, try to take hostages, yell about hanging the bank president, vandalize the place, and threaten to do worse if they don't give me back my money.
Does step 4 sound like I'm just asking someone to re-examine the account? And how many re-examinations do I get before I need to consider whether my "evidence" makes sense?
Does step 4 sound like I’m just asking someone to re-examine the account?
Yes, minus that "try to take hostages" thing, which is bogus.
People sometimes engage in uncivilized, criminal persuasion techniques when the civilized techniques have failed. Disruption, confrontation of police, and vandalism for example.
They need to be prosecuted, appropriately. But they're not a threat to the nation, nor should they be treated as such. The other day some anti-Israel protesters took over the CA legislature. Pretty much the same thing.
If the criminal persuasion techniques are employed in an attempt to "persuade" people in power to join a coup attempt, that's sedition, insurrection, or rebellion depending on the details.
Not everyone employing criminal "persuasion" techniques against the government are insurrectionists. It depends on the goal.
To halt the certification of Joe Biden's election and get Donald Trump's re-election certified instead.
Most protesters have a purpose and a message, albeit sometimes incoherent.
It kind of matters what your weapons are relative to those of the people you're attacking. Yes, the Saudi hijackers had box cutters. What did the other people in the planes have, pray tell? Maybe box cutters are extremely efficient when the people you attack them with are unarmed. By contrast, DC police have an enormous array of weapons. And your statement that the Saudi hijackers didn't "just want to have a little fun having a turn at the plane controls" is absolutely false and disgusting. They wanted to use the planes as 800,000 pound explosives.
Claudine Gay commented on Ilya's latest article, here is what she had to say: The trouble with Ilya is not that he is ignorant, it is just that he knows so much that isn't so.
What ever happened on January 6, we know it was not an insurrection. We know that because the insurrection act gives the president authority to declare an insurrection. We know that President Trump did not so declare. presidents have declared insurrections going back as far as Thomas Jefferson. Who's name is missing from that list? Trump. Therefore, there was no insurrection. QED.
President Davis never declared an insurrection either.
More to the point, we are dealing here with the definition of insurrection under Colorado law and/or Section 3, not the definition under the Insurrection Act.
The Insurrection Act concerns the conditions under which the President can federalize state militias and send in federal troops.
This case has notjing to do with that. It concerns a completely different question, the circumstances under which a state can render a slate of would-be presidential electors ineligible to be appointed in that state. Because the President has nothing to do with the rules under which states appoint their presidential electors (except where state law makes the President relevant), Presidential proclamations have nothing to do with it either.
It is not even tied to the definition of "insurrection" used in the federal statute relating to the crime of insurrection.
It's DonM-er than DonM.
This has nothing to do with the federal statutory crime of insurrection. This is about the rules fof Colorado appointing its presidential electors. That’s a state matter, not a federal one.
Let's be clear: The insurrection act is enabling legislation for the 14th amendment. This is unavoidable.
It imposes disqualification from a wide range of offices, federal AND state, upon conviction. This amounts to adding a qualification for office, and Congress can't constitutionally do that even for federal office, let alone state.
Without being enabling legislation for the 14th amendment, the insurrection act would be, in that regard at least, unconstitutional.
This means that, for Section 3 purposes, the insurrection act provides THE definition of Section 3 "insurrection". It may be constitutionally over-broad, but it is that definition for legal purposes.
States are free to have a more expansive definition for their own purposes, but as they're definitively not entitled to add new qualifications to hold federal office, they can't use their own definition for such offices, only for state offices.
So, exactly to the point, we ARE dealing with the definition of insurrection under the Insurrection act, and no other.
Colorado isn't adding new qualifications to hold federal office. They are deciding who's name will be printed on their ballots. Something states do in every single Presidential election. North Carolina state board of elections just decided that Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson will not appear on the Democratic primary ballot for US President in NC. Both meet all the constitutional requirements to be President.
Most, if not all states have a number of signatures requirement to appear on the ballot. That's not in the constitution.
They're not just deciding who can be on the ballot: The CO supreme court ordered that write in votes for Trump could not be counted, too.
Yes, in an election the sole purpose of which is to determine whose name will appear on the ballot in November. They are determining that in November electors pledged to Trump will not be appointed. Which I would argue the constitution gives them the power to do.
Again, I think the primary election system we now have is a bad match for the process as spelled out in the Constitution.
When a state keeps someone off the ballot because of 14.3, they can only do so in a manner which 14.3 allows them (ReaderY notwithstanding). So, if Brett were correct and the Insurrection Act is the enabling legislation, then a state would be acting unconstitutionally to keep Trump off the ballot because of 14.3. Ditto if 14.3 were self-executing but Trump did not engage in an insurrection as determined by SCOTUS or as determined by lower courts applying a definition provided by SCOTUS.
I disagree with every bit of that comment. For one, the insurrection act is in no way enabling legislation deriving from section 5. Two, I cannot see how the constitution gives SCOTUS the power to force Colorado to use its definition of insurrection, in the context of Colorado selecting its Presidential electors. Could you expound on that?
If Colorado uses 14.3 as the basis for not choosing Trump’s electors, it becomes a federal question, under the Supremacy Clause, what 14.3 means and what process applies.
It is utterly false. It does not purport to be enabling legislation for the 14th amendment. And it does not track the 14th amendment. It covers different people and does different things.
Without being enabling legislation for the 14th amendment, the insurrection act would be, in that regard at least, unconstitutional.
Brett’s finally right about something! Yes, the insurrection act’s penalty is unconstitutional as applied to federally elected positions such as the Presidency.
So ironically, much to your and Kaz’s dismay I’m sure, Trump would not be barred from the Presidency by a conviction under the insurrection act.
Colorado law cannot define what an insurrection is for the purposes of the federal constitution. That's a federal question, and we have to look to the federal level for the definition -- noting that originalism does not give statutory law or regulations the scope to define constitutional terms.
The act requires proclamations to allow use of military forces within the United States; Trump resisted deploying the National Guard. The only time the Insurrection Act was invoked with respect to Washington DC was to quell rioting after Martin Luther King's assassination. The only other event in Washington DC with deployment of military forces was the Bonus Army, but Hoover did not invoke the Insurrection Act; and Douglas MacArthur ignored Hoover's orders to stop the assault.
Most presidents have not invoked the Insurrection Act. Joe Biden did subsequently call January 6th an armed insurrection, although not in a proclamation invoking the Insurrection Act.
Trump famously wanted the National Guard on-site to help keep the Capitol secure on January 6th. Congress refused.
As with so many other things, we would have saved ourselves a lot of grief if leftists would have just listened to Donald Trump.
That would have interfered with the FBI plants.
We're told over and over again that it doesn't matter what Trump says or does, none of it counts for anything, he'll say anything and he's too incompetent and ineffectual to acheive anything, to even listen to him and report what he's saying is TDS and repercussions for his words and actions are a threat to democracy.
Is "famously" short for "I'm making this shit up as I go along"?
1) Trump asked if the National Guard was available to protect his acolytes from the imagined Antifa threat. He never said one word about protecting the Capitol.
2) Congress did not refuse, because Congress is not in the chain of command and cannot "refuse" an order Trump issues to the National Guard.
"although not in a proclamation invoking the Insurrection Act."
Of course not, he held no federal office on January 6.
A mere triviality, Don.
We know that because the insurrection act gives the president authority to declare an insurrection.
Well, that is certainly what Stewart Rhodes wanted Trump to do. Although, the idea there was for him to use the Insurrection Act to stay in office...
Colorado gets to have its own definition of insurrection. It can define it however it wants, as long as it is a sufficiently plausible definition to put an ordinary person on notice under ordinary civil standards. Criminal-law standards for vagueness do not apply.
Colorado gets to incorporate its interpretation of Section 3 into its election law for purposes about making decisions about the appointment of its presidential electors. It just doesn’t matter what Section 3 “really” means. What matters in Colorado is what Colorado says it means. The only relevant federal issues here would be procedural due process and vagueness. What Colorado did satisfies both. Colorado’s definition of insurrection is an eminently plausible one.
No, Scotus will soon tell Colorado that it cannot interfere with a federal election by one judge adopting a crazy interpretation of the Constitution.
Aftwr the 2016 election, SCOTIS told this very state, Colorado, that it was completely OK to interfere with the federal election for President. SCOTUs said Colorado could replace (and Washington could Prosecute) presidential Electors who refused to cast their ballots the way the state legislature directed them to vote. It said that state legislature’s power to control Presidential elections was practicallt unlimited, and includes the power to completely inferfere in any way it wants, as long as the rules for interference are set before the electors are appointed. This is what is happening here.
Unlike Congress, where elections are condicted by the people by cknstitutional right, constituiton provides for presidential elections by a college of electors who meet in state capitals in December. How those electors get appointed, and what rules they are constrained or pledged to, is solely up to state legislatures. State legislatures can require that the electors vote for a single specific individual that gets determined in some other manner, whatever other manner the legislature chooses to provide. Unlike Congressional elections, the constitution doesn’t say that citizens get to have any say at all on who it is. Of course state legislatures can provide that the electors can’t cast their ballots for someone who doesn’t meet whatever qualifications a state legislature chooses to establish.
Well, those certainly are a lot of entirely unsupported assertions. Do New York and California similarly get to make their own determination of what the Second Amendment means, most analogously in terms of scope, and Arizona (or Maricopa County specifically) its own determination of immigration law?
I will also note that Colorado -- and other states -- did not, in fact, even meet the standard that you set forth. Putting someone on notice under ordinary civil standards has to be done in advance of the action.
You might find the ex post facto clause a pesky impediment to government, but there's a very good reason it is there.
The ex post facto clause applies to criminal law. Disqualifying a person from holding an office is a civil matter, not a criminal one. It is no crime to not have been chosen as President. The relevant legal standard here is Due Process, adequate notice and vagueness. The standards for Due Processs are looser for civil matters than for criminal ones.
What Colorado did here passes Due Process for both notice and vagueness. The existence of Section 3 itself provides adequate notice that insurrectionist activities are going to be a problem for you if you want to run for office, and it should not have been too much of a surprise that the Colorado Supreme Court would incorporate Section 3 into its Presidential election code. I think Trump had adequate advance notice that if he participated in an insurrection, he might not be able to be a candidate for President in a state like Colorado. The Supreme Court of Colorado’s interpretation of both “insurrection” and “engaged ” and/or “aid” and “comfort” was plausible enough to give fair notice. While commentators on this blog have poured into archana of the historical context, Due Process notice is concerned with the plain, ordinary meaning of the words, the meaning for ordinary people, not historians. Frankly I think the historical archana people are fighting an uphill battle. I think what Trump did is clearly within the plain, ordinary meaning of the words.
By civil-law standards, I see no Due Process problem with what Colorado did. Trump should not have been surprised by it.
Notice and vagueness are not even close to the only Due Process civil standards. Highly suggest you read Goldberg v. Kelly, Perry v. Sindermann, and Mathews v. Eldridge. SCOTUS laid out the two-part test for Due Process civil standards in that trio.
No.
ReaderY's theory is that the states have plenary power to choose presidential electors, and therefore can keep anyone off the presidential ballot they want to for any reason that does not violate some other part of the Constitution. They could keep off people without college degrees or insurrectionists or people under 50. They couldn't keep off whites because of the Equal Protection Clause.
So, his theory doesn't apply to the Second Amendment or immigration law. But, per Darth Buckeye's comment, it would allow Texas and Florida to define insurrection to screw Biden.
In short, ReaderY's theory is nuts.
We've got a lot of people who otherwise hate the fact that states have some power over federal elections defending state power over federal elections. #principalsnotprinciples
They can. The Constitution specifically provides that state legislatures get to determine the way Presidential electors get authority. And the first part of the Second Amendment also contains a similar grant of specific authority to states, a right to raise a Militia. If you look at different state statutes, you will see that different states have chosen to define their militia in different ways. What a “Militia” is is thus a matter of state law, and does not have a uniform federal definition.
When the constitution grants specific authority to states, as it does for both the state militia power and the power of state legislatures to direct the appointment of presidential electors, state law controls. When it grants a right to the people, as it does for both the right to keep and bear arms and the right to elect members of Congress, state law does not control.
It’s really very simple. They are two clearly different things.
Your quickness to jump from "the way Presidential electors get authority" to qualification for the Presidency shows that you are skipping a lot of very important steps in your thought process.
Just as states (as examples, California and New York) don't get to define the scope of "the right to keep and bear arms", states (as examples, Colorado and Maine) don't get to define the scope of "insurrection".
In addition to missing the steps about getting to qualification, ReaderY's notion that states can keep one party off the ballot has a few holes in it too.
He likes to refer to Chiafalo in support for his theory, but keeps missing that the Court said (my emphasis), "States [have] far-reaching authority over presidential electors, absent some other constitutional constraint." And in a very telling footnote, the Court said:
Two comments, One, ReaderY acknowledged that point very clearly, and said that he felt the Colorado action didn't violate the other relevant parts of the constitution. He may be right or wrong, but he did write to that specific argument.
Also, arguably, Colorado isn't applying a new requirement on Presidential candidates. They are applying one that has been in force for about 140 years.
I didn't claim ReaderY doesn't recognize that Colorado can't violate other parts of the Constitution. It's his application of the principle that's off the rails. He claims "Colorado gets to have its own definition of insurrection" without violating the 14.3. When pressed, he said Colorado could define "natural-born citizen" to preclude someone conceived by IVF being on the ballot. That's nuts.
Can states apply other requirements for candidates to appear on a ballot? Can they require some number of signatures on a petition, for instance? Can they require a fee to be paid? You seem to be drawing some line in the kind of requirements states can use to determine ballot eligibility. Is the line less arbitrary than that it appears to you to be nuts?
Signatures and fees aren’t qualifications of the candidate, so they pose no problem. I’m doubtful a state can disqualify a candidate who is not college educated because that adds new qualifications. But because the Constitution is silent on that issue, there is some argument they could. But, the Constitution is not silent on age, citizenship and insurrection. The states can’t make up their own rules in those cases.
We aren't going to have the chaos of some states kicking out Trump and others kicking out Biden because they all have their own definition of insurrection.
In Heller, the Court held the individual has a right to own guns unconnected to militia service. What do you think is left to the states?
Which means Texas and Florida can have their own definitions of "insurrection" which will cover the security state's persecution of Trump and MAGA supporters...including Biden's leadership role in this persecution.
They could. State legislatures can always just appoint the electors themselves if they want. Or if they want, they can have a popular-ballot election but limit the set of candidates that citizen voters get to choose. Nothing would prevent a Soviet style election where there is a popular election but only one name on the ballot. And nothing prevents rules based on partisan politics. If they want to, they could include only candidates who pledge to support specific policies the legislature favors. They could for example, only include candidates who pledge to support or oppose abortion.
Yes, Red states could prohibit candidates who refuse to pledge to send in federal troops to quell riots, if they want to. (Assuming that’s what you’re referring to by discribing Biden as supporting insurrection.) Or they can just pledge their electors to support the candidate nominated by the Republican party and be done with it.
I think the real problem is that the primary election process for President that has developed doesn't really fit well with the process for selecting a President laid out in the Constitution. Yet another example of how having two major political parties running everything has warped our constitutional structure.
Colorado gets to have its own definition of insurrection.
Yes, Colorado could have done that and all the other things you mentioned, but it hasn’t.
Instead, it removed Trump from the ballot because he’s federally disqualified by 14/3.
But SCOTUS gets the final word on whether Trump actually is federally disqualified.
This is a very fair take. Kudos
The actual people breaching the Capitol posted on social media and thought it was a revolution. History being made etc.
They took down the American flag and put up a MAGA flag.
They told reporters “we’re storming the Capitol, it’s a revolution!”
GOP Congresspeople and media figures posted how this serious and bad at the time.
And there's the "they" slight of hand again. Weird how you manage to flag it whenever anyone else tries to attribute the words or actions of one or two randos to a huge group.
What is a bullshit standard that means no mob can be doing unless you poll a majority of it's members.
OK, so all-for-one-and-one-for-all is the going-forward standard for everyone? Got it.
An excluded middle sure is your standard, it seems.
Good lord, I haven't seen a more obvious deployment of that fallacy in quite some time.
You're sucking at the pedantry game this weekend!
Yawn. When you get done huffing and puffing, tell me what the standard should be for everyone and that's what we'll apply going forward. 'Cause there IS just one standard for everyone, right?
It is, of course, bullshit to insist on a procrustean bright line standard of what counts as a mob's position.
Also bullshit: insisting the only way to know is to poll everyone in the mob.
Also bullshit: pretending anyone objecting to the above must mean all you need is a single individual.
Your thing is to focus on trivial parts of the argument. And I let myself get distracted by that even though I know better, because your attack on said trivialities was such low hanging fruit of fallacies.
No, what's bullshit is your objection to having your professed standards applied to things you don't like having your professed standards applied to. What's bullshit is you engaging in this behavior all the time and crying every time someone calls you out on it.
I should give you credit for this, even though it came way late:
"If Steve—or anyone else—wants to get these people disqualified from future office-holding under Section 3, I think they might have a good case."
I think you're still downplaying how frequent "insurrection" is by the standard you'd set, (And Section 3 covers "rebellion", too, remember.) but this is a little progress.
I'll contemplate starting to give credit to Ilya the Lesser when (a) he starts to regularly use "Read More" and (b) he fixes the subheading. By the logical standards of "But the events of January 6 readily meet the criteria for both [rebellion and insurrection]", Somin is literally threatening American democracy!
Balderdash.
Republicans are going to vote for the guy who tried to remain in power after losing an election and they're going to say they support democracy as they do so. That's what it all boils down to.
So what?
So fucking what?
After what was done to himn, he was entitled to give payback!
Embracing a platform of revenge and still thinking you are a patriot.
The voters violated their oath of personal loyalty and dared to vote for someone else, he was entitled to give payback!
I expect conservatives to become less hospitable to the concept of payback as better Americans continue to win the culture war and decide how magnanimous to be toward the bigoted, uneducated, deplorable right-wing losers.
Conservatives deserve everything that is coming to them as America continues to progress against their wishes and works. Soon enough, leniency from the liberal-libertarian mainstream will be their only hope. Well, that and a rapture!
After what was done to him, he was entitled to give payback!
WTF are you talking about? What was done to him?
He wasn't allowed to stay in office after losing the election?
He was indicted or sued for various criminal and civil offenses for which there is strong evidence?
If Trump starts encouraging you to drink Kool-Aid, are you going to do it?
So, you don't give a fuck abut democracy, in fact you're exploicitly authoritarian and out for revenge merely because your boy is subject to the same laws everyone else is. That's what.
Hmm,
Please precisely state what arms the J6 protesters took up.
Here's a head start even a half-educated Volokh fan should be able to follow.
So nobody charged with breaching the capitol had a gun. The common "weapons" were flagpoles. Certainly the kind of thing you would expect to see used in a riot. But what insurrection is waged with flags?
They were waving their arms around. Viking Horns Guy even had bare arms!
All of this is based on the novel idea that Trump’s speeches somehow magically caused people to riot. That is an absurd idea on its face.
I mean, how does that even make sense?
Yes, the climax of his speech started a riot before he delivered it. It even inspired Unindicted Pipe Bomb Terrorist to build destructive devices in advance. Trump's very speech threatens not only the laws of this country, but the very laws of nature. That's how important it is that we stop him from being elected again!
Those are very great points.
Of course, if mere words can cause people to riot (even if those words lacked explicit orders), then how does this principle apply to "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". How does this principle apply to Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, and Charles M. Blow?
'if mere words can cause people to riot'
Mere sports scores cause people to riot, words can do it just as well.
The indictment talks about his tweets.
The speech isn't the cause, but it does go to intent.
Donald Trump really should stop posting to Twitter in the middle of his speeches, huh.
You should consider reading the indictment, lest your bullshit be taken as in bad faith.
You should consider making your argument instead of just waving your hands in a vague insurrection-ish manner, lest even more people realize you are projecting.
You asserted yesterday, as well as right here, that Donald Trump was part of an insurrection because he conspired in advance of the riot for the rioters to invade the Capitol, but nobody remotely serious has leveled that accusation.
'You should consider making your argument'
He needs to stop overestimating your intelligence.
Magically? How dare you undervalue the hard work Trump put in persuading his supporters that he had really won and that they could force Congress to let him remain as president. The ONE BIT of completely committed actual hard work he performed during his presidency. Shame.
I do not believe anyone suggested it was magic. (Though that would explain why anyone listens to, let alone likes, Donald Trump.)
"Insurrection" means only what lawyers want it to mean, no more and no less.
To be more accurate, what 9 lawyers on the highest court in the land want it to mean. Unless those 9 lawyers decide they can avoid defining it (based on the meaning of "officer," due process considerations, etc.).
Hate to give the enemy any help but..........
I'm an Ed-jew-ma-cated man, Multilingual, Bored Certified Gas Passer,
but every time I hear "Insurrection" it makes me think of "Errection" and I start laughing (so does Mrs. Drackman, although she's been laughing at my erections well before "January 6th")
and when it comes down to Common-Law Harris and Calvin Loathsome running in November, nobody's gonna care but any erections,
Frank
I generally agree with Ilya's assessment of January 6th and with Steve on the point that using this to exclude ballot access is a bad idea.
The only really point of conflict should be about Trump's involvement.
What I find the most absurd though are the comments here holding up the lengths of Ilya's posts as evidence against him. It seems disingenuous to say that someone made their case too thoroughly to be honest or correct.
It's ludicrous to call a riot, even a violent riot, an "insurrection" when the context of the 14A was the aftermath of the Civil War. The Amendment didn't define the term because it seemed so freaking obvious at the time. An enemy army waging war, in uniforms, carrying their own flag, renaming their country - none of that was even remotely what happened on Jan 6.
Or put another way - if Jan 6 was so obviously an insurrection, why was no one charged with insurrection? Forget Trump for a moment. There were thousands on Jan 6 who were charged with all sorts of crimes. But insurrection wasn't charged among any of them. Not one.
Was anyone convicted of seditious conspiracy?
Yes, about a dozen people. You know what the "seditious conspiracy" was? It was conspiracy to interfere with the business of Congress.
That's not insurrection. Or rebellion. And certainly not a Civil War.
Since in this case the "business of Congress" was to certify the transfer of power as per the election, it certainly was insurrection.
If I conspire to bribe members of Congress, even if it's over a transfer of power, that's not an insurrection.
.
Which lying dumbass said they did?
Calabresi
Interesting how the left flip flops on this. When it's convenient, they claim the mob didn't disperse when Trump told them to. Yet they still present that as evidence that Trump was in charge of the riot - "they dispersed when Trump told them to, that proved Trump was in charge".
"updated with brief further rejoinder"
Ah, law professors, and their "brief" further rejoinders. Funny, they.
I am still not persuaded that people trespassing by strolling unarmed through the Capitol building while police stand by, chatting among themselves, was going to overthrow the U.S. government, but that's probably just a failure of imagination on my part.
More like a failure of information.
"The number of combat fatalities (9 for Shay's Rebellion, 3-4 for the Whiskey Rebellion, 5 on January 6)"
Combat fatalities on January 6? My understanding is that only one person was shot, a participant in the riot. Ilya's first post linked to AP for his claim that 5 people died, but the link itself didn't claim that.
Was it conspiratorial in 2016 when it was James Comey and the 2016 election? 😉
What are you talking about?
Indeed, if anything "proves" that the FBI wasn't engaged in a conspiracy against Trump, it is what FBI Director Comey did just before the election in 2016...
But did he chuck the spear? Was he a spear chucker?
I know, I know, my mom fucks (redacted)s, beat you to it.
Frank
Does "bear arms" mean just carrying them around now? The pictures I've seen show him using it as a flag pole, and the way the flag was attached made it impractical as a weapon.
But not an insurrection, which by definition is preplanned. This would be true even if Trump was actually at the doorsteps of the Capotil, instead of at the Ellipse.
You finally make half a lick of sense: Yes, Schumer was very clearly threatening Supreme Court justices over their potential official judicial decisions.
Schumer's later attempt to claim he was talking about a political price for Senate Republicans is no more than a fig leaf to cover up his insurrection.
Some crap he heard on Fox.
I could probably stab someone with the more pointy pens I own, but I do not take up arms when I write a shopping list.
No, the impeachment prosecution held the position that Trump's speech near the White House incited the riot at the Capitol.
This is factually problematic because the Capitol had already been breached by the time Donald Trump told the people at his speech to start the 30- to 45-minute walk to the Capitol, but Democrats were in a rush to impeach him a second time and had never let facts stop them before.
And again, what Gaslight0 has asserted is that Trump was part of a conspiracy to invade the Capitol. Yesterday he claimed that "they" wrote memos about it.
On top of that, Gaslight0 isn't even being remotely consistent. He talks about "the indictment" as if there was some indictment somewhere alleging that someone engaged in insurrection on January 6th. (There is no such indictment, much less one that accuses Donald Trump of being part of such an insurrection.) It's all part of his hand-waving strategy: Be as ambiguous as possible so that he can complain that any specific criticism is not addressing what he really meant.
So a sharp pointy spear isn't a weapon because pens. You're really committed to the bit.
Michael P, the Vivek Ramaswamy of the Volokh comment threads: I (and suspect everyone else) get a little dumber every time I read one of his comments.
Aside from the fact that this insurrection was preplanned, what part of the definition of insurrection requires preplanning?
If it was part of a months-long pattern of such statements culminating in an attack on Gorsuch and Kavanaugh by thousands of people at Schumer's apparent pleasure, you'd at least have something comparable. Still not an insurrection, more like an assassination attempt, but at least you'd be on the board rather than embarrassing yourself.
Plenty of posters and commenters here have made the exact arguments you suggest.