The Volokh Conspiracy
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Is Support for "From the River to the Sea" Based Upon Ignorance?
Younger Americans, in particular, appear to support calls for Palestinian liberation, but do they understand what a common slogan means?
For the past two months, colleges and public squares across the country have been filled with demonstrations in support of Palestinian statehood and opposing Israel's military response to the October 7 terrorist attacks and its policies toward the West Bank. "From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free," is a common chant at these protests, prompting debate over whether the phrase is or should be considered inherently threatening to Jewish students and others. University of Pennsylvania professor Claire Finkelstein, for one, argues this phrase "in the present context . . . creates a hostile environment that can impair the equal educational opportunities of Jewish students."
Political Science Professor Ron Hassner of the University of California at Berkeley was curious whether college students and others calling for Palestine to be "free" "from the river to the sea" understood what that slogan entails, so he conducted a survey to find out, and wrote up his results in the Wall Street Journal. His op-ed begins:
When college students who sympathize with Palestinians chant "From the river to the sea," do they know what they're talking about? I hired a survey firm to poll 250 students from a variety of backgrounds across the U.S. Most said they supported the chant, some enthusiastically so (32.8%) and others to a lesser extent (53.2%).
But only 47% of the students who embrace the slogan were able to name the river and the sea. Some of the alternative answers were the Nile and the Euphrates, the Caribbean, the Dead Sea (which is a lake) and the Atlantic. . . .
Would learning basic political facts about the conflict moderate students' opinions? A Latino engineering student from a southern university reported "definitely" supporting "from the river to the sea" because "Palestinians and Israelis should live in two separate countries, side by side." Shown on a map of the region that a Palestinian state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, leaving no room for Israel, he downgraded his enthusiasm for the mantra to "probably not." Of the 80 students who saw the map, 75% similarly changed their view.
Hassner also reports that a majority of those surveyed who initially voiced support for a single Palestinian state moderated their views "when they learned it would entail the subjugation, expulsion or annihilation of seven million Jewish and two million Arab Israelis."
Hassner's survey focused on the implications of "from the river to the sea." I would not be at all surprised were surveys looking at claims Israelis are European colonizers or comparing civil and religious freedom across the Middle East to find similar levels of ignorance, and an equivalent moderation of views when respondents were presented with relevant history and context.
While some argue that universities (and others) should tamp down on free expression in order to quell discord on college campuses, Hassner's findings suggest universities might do better to double-down on their core mission: Educating their students and providing a forum for the presentation and examination of ideas. As Hassner found, something as simple as showing students maps of the Middle East significantly informs and affects their understanding of the current Israel-Hamas conflict. Now imagine what might happen if universities made a serious effort to sponsor substantive forums on the history of the conflict, presenting thoughtful proponents of the competing positions and laying bear the full complexity (and perhaps intractability) of the current situation, all the while modeling civil discourse for assembled students. This would do more than policing memes and chants. Universities, of all institutions, should believe in the power of education.
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The students and some of their apologists may not know. But Hamas, which these students are praising, does know that it means total elimination of Jews from the Middle East, if not beyond.
There's been no shortage of Israeli politicians and supporters using the same talk. It's been in Likud's platform : "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".
Using the phrase in the original post above, wouldn't that entail "the subjugation, expulsion or annihilation" of five million Palestinians? Sure, but a lot of people think the Palestinians are subhumans anyway, undeserving of basic rights or to be a citizen of any country.
So it's not just dumbass college kids. The rhetoric from both sides typically makes millions of people magically vanish without a trace. Both sides regularly pretend-away the rights, standing, history and humanity of another whole population. That's pretty common, particularly in this country, where the issue is debated at the level of a cartoon. More uncommon is someone looking at the blindness, stupidity, brutality and deep cynicism of both sides. You don't see a lot of that here.
So yeah, let's explain to those kids that millions of Israelis exist and must have a country of their own. And let's explain to supporters of Israel that Palestinians exist and apartheid rule over 4-5 million stateless people can't be sustained indefinitely, particularly when Israel can't stop (politically) appropriating more and more of the land under their feet. Less ignorance is good for everyone.
"Less ignorance is good for everyone."
That would be nice. But you did side-step the question of the deliberate ignorance of the protesters because others do the like.
Don Nico : "But you did side-step the question of the deliberate ignorance of the protesters because others do the like"
No I didn’t.
I'll take you at your word
Don’t bother. Just read what I wrote. Your claim wasn’t just wrong, it was transparently wrong. That's clear for anyone to see.
You can't resist being an arrogant SOB, being insulting and so dismissive at giving you the benefit of the doubt.
You continually show that you're a bad person who is not interested in constructive dialog. You are one are who is transparently wrong about most things that you post.
Well you are just a blatant liar.
Except it's not Hamas itself chanting at the University, it's students with generally good intentions and no antisemitic motives. The students should be better informed but it's not the narrative that many have claimed.
Similarly, how many strident defenders of Israel are aware that Israel is slowly ethnically cleansing the West Bank? (forcing Palestinians off their land and then build Jewish Settlements in their place). I suspect a lot of the students are aware of this practice and that's the real motivation for their chanting.
" students with generally good intentions and no antisemitic motives. " (based on zero hard evidence)
It does not look that way to me at MIT.
You're talking about *praise for Hamas* writ large among these protests based on from what I see exactly one anecdote.
So what you see seems rather distorted.
The man who was not there speaks about what is happening.
Talk about deliberate distortions.
Well according to the post the support for the 'river to the sea' phrase collapses when the students are given the context that it eliminates Israel.
So I'd say that is actually pretty good evidence that that aren't antisemitic.
Students have been told that for several weeks, yet the threatening behavior toward Jews persists. Your "evidence" does not exist.
I love how Stefanick turned around the newspeak.
"It's only harassment if they commit the act of genocide?!"
' told y'all.
You told us that all your fellow pro-"From the river to the sea" travellers were ignorant children?
Yes. They're pretty obviously not all "calling for genocide" based on a long chain of geopolitical causal inferences. That's not really how college kids' minds work.
They didn't realize they were advocating for genocide, but they did it anyway. That's one of the risks of jumping onto a bandwagon without understanding it.
They simply weren't advocating genocide. Duh.
Those kids are legally adults.
Adults have responsibilities, including owning their language.
You obviously haven't read Through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there.
You obviously support modern day Nazis seeking to exterminate Jews.
You're boring.
I am not surprised by the ignorance. I think these kids like this as it rolls off the tongue easily. The fact is the chant "from the river to the seas" is the stupidest expression since "defund the police".
They like how it sounds and also the reaction it gets.
That is intellectual of them. They're better off at a hip-hop niteclub
It rhymes, and that's what really matters.
These are the same people who wear t-shirts with Che's picture, ignoring how homophobic he was and how many homosexuals he murdered.
In other words, morons.
Is a white, male blog that
publishes racial slurs weekly;
cultivates an audience of bigots and publishes an incessant stream of multifaceted bigotry, including explicit calls for liberals to be gassed, pushed through woodchippers, raped, shot in the face, placed face-down in landfills, sent to Zyklon showers, exterminated, etc.
has exhibited a transphobic fetish during recent months;
wallows in white male grievance and spotlights Black crime;
strenuously advocates safe spaces for gay-bashers, racists, misogynists, transphobes, immigrant-haters, etc.;
and
repeatedly imposes in viewpoint-driven censorship the best (or even an appropriate) forum for this line of argument?
If the arguments from advocates such as Prof. Adler and Prof. Kerr deserve mainstream respect, they also deserve a better forum.
How is that chant inherently threatening to American Jewish students?
How is that chant inherently threatening to American Jewish students?
The real answer is because it draws attention to Israel's bad behavior and waning support, which scares the shit out of them since Jewish institutions within the US, such as the ADL, have been hammering the notion of a deep, intrinsic personal connection between themselves and Israel their whole lives.
Israel does not have waning support.
It's always interesting to see who crawls out of the woodwork to defend the people that put babies in ovens and kill them.
Fascinating, really.
You continue to advance that unqualified declaration.
Without any foundation for the assertion that your desired answer is true, of course.
Americans -- especially educated, reasoning, successful, younger, modern Americans -- do not support right-wing belligerence at home. Why would anyone expect them to continue to wish to subsidize it, at great and varied cost, anywhere else?
Israel has chosen to align with the losing side of the American culture war and has made support for Israel's deplorable, violent conduct and right-wing, superstition-laced government a divider in American politics. The consequences of those failures seem predictable and, for Israel, severe.
Lying past the graveyard seems to be Mr. Nieporent's approach to this circumstance.
"The real answer is because it draws attention to Israel’s bad behavior"
BS. It is because the yells are made in the context of physical intimidation. You just want to shut your eyes to antisemitic behavior and make excuses for it.
Yet again, what is 'physical intimidation' and how does it differ from intimidation?
I always took it as intimidation via physical means, rather than by speech. You seem to have a different definition.
What physical intimidation?
You have been told about physical intimidation several times. You just brush it off saying that the instances are no big deal.
You do not want to know. So. why answer your question once again?
I've only been told about one instance of physical intimidation involving a bike at MIT. Is that what all this is about? One dude with a bike?
that is the only case you did not make an excuse for. But neurodoc gave you a long list with dates.
Either you are calling my Jewish colleagues liars BECAUSE they are Jews or you don't care that Jews are harassed. That is the only conclusion one can draw.
It’s not inherently threatening to people in America, but the people who chant it are usually part of a mob that does threaten people through other actions or true threats — or who do not merely threaten but actively commit violence.
Even if I grant that as true, according to Prof. Adler the debate is about whether the phrase itself creates a hostile environment toward Jewish students. Neither he nor Prof. Claire Finkelstein gives a very good explanation as to why this would be true. I was wondering if anyone else here could.
I can see why American Jewish students might feel threatened or uncomfortable with some of the people making the chant, as you point out. But the debate is about stifling speech.
That's weird, the people chanting this seem to think the debate is about whether Israel and Jews have a right to exist.
"the debate is about stifling speech"
No. The debate is about punishing discriminatory, harassing behavior.
It is about University leader losing control of their campuses.
The entire freaking point is that this isn't an easy line. That's what liberals have been saying for a long time when the free speech absolutists talk about snowflakes and safe spaces.
Now you're swinging around and pretending this is not only easy, but something *schools* has been ignoring because they're too liberal.
Nonsense.
I guess S_0 wants to deny reality based on zero direct knowledge.
Yes, I was reading about how they jiggled the handle of an office door at MIT, truly frightening
Prof. Adler, thank you for the thoughtful, useful treatment of an issue that often doesn't seem to receive that.
I think you're mostly right, but want to add an additional, if smaller point, from a Ken White piece I quoted other parts of in a VC posting yesterday (in bold; the rest is to include its context:
[If you want to read the whole thing, search on " Stop Demanding Dumb Answers To Hard Questions
Demanding Short, Dumb Answers About Hate Speech Makes You A Useful Idiot For Bigots. " Ken White | Dec 7, 2023]
We should express our compassion and empathy by clearly pointing out that what those people are saying is genocidal, and being consistent in how we treat them relative to people who argue similar things, such as that the US should send all Black Americans to Africa, especially when those arguments are coupled with explicit harassment or violence. The soft bigotry of low expectations is still bigotry.
'how we treat them relative'
Fuck off.
Michael, you show no sign of having just read a whole thoughtful, useful VC post concerning that very topic. You did read it, didn't you?
If you don't know what it means, better to not say it.
Given that, a call for killing all the Jews deserves a strong response.
(A bit stronger than shouting back "never again!")
Unfortunately, right-wing bigots and conservative bigot-huggers -- such as those found every day at the Volokh Conspiracy -- have no credibility in this regard. Why would the American mainstream be in the market for pointers from Republicans, conservatives, right-wingers, Federalist Society members, or organizations such as FIRE on anything involving inclusiveness or bigotry?
I'm glad Volokh favors free speech.
It's a shame you think name-calling is argumentation. One would expect a "Reverend" to be more intelligent than that.
The fact that protesters embracing slogans like "Free Palestine" or "From the river to the sea..." do not mean, by the slogans, to be saying anything about the elimination of Israel, directly implies that that is not what those slogans mean. They may be ignorant of the precise geopolitical contours of the region or of how some bad-faith actors are taking their words as antisemitic, but they are not ignorant of what they mean to say. That is just not how language works.
If we can finally put this tiresome debate to rest by agreeing, at least, that the protesters are not calling for a Jewish genocide, then at least we have made some progress. But Elise Stefanik and college presidents do not get to declare what these slogans actually mean, contrary to the intent of the protesters themselves.
"do not mean, by the slogans, to be saying anything about the elimination of Israel, directly implies that that is not what those slogans mean."
You are just making that up. That is as bad as the Orange Clown.
Am I making it up? Seems to be the OP's point, isn't it?
Let's get to the root cause: These campus have been anything but temples of freedom of speech, except now you have a justification for you version of free speech: those students are too stupid to know what they are saying.
There are just too many examples of speech suppression at R1 universities to make your defense of free speech credible.
I don't have a problem with the speech in itself, but with its weaponization to harass students and faculty on a persistent basis because of their religious and ethnic heritage.
The cause of this problematic speech is that campuses have not been bastions of free speech, eh?
This is the kind of self-contradictory logic I'm seeing on the right. They're turning on a dime from one side of the debate to the other, but want to maintain hostility to schools.
YOU work at a school; you should know better that the atmosphere is not what the right-wing news rags would have you think. And yet disappointingly, here you are at the vanguard.
There are just too many examples of speech suppression at R1 universities to make your defense of free speech credible.
Nicky, doll, I don't know what you're talking about. I am making a narrow point about what the speakers of these slogans apparently mean. I'm not saying anything about the appropriate response thereto.
its weaponization to harass students and faculty on a persistent basis because of their religious and ethnic heritage.
What evidence of this?
Again, you have been presented a long list by others such as neurodoc. You deny the relevance or seriousness of the incidents, even though you were not there to witness the behavior.
You do NOT want to know. I won't waste my time repeating what you have been told.
Besides, what you want to believe is irrelevant.
neurodoc’s evidence was of a bunch of chanting, and one thing with a bike. He wasn’t there to witness it either, so I don’t know why that matters. I’m not claiming I know that there wasn’t harassment of Jews for being Jewish, just saying that neither neurodoc nor anyone else has pointed to any (barring that one bike thing).
No it was not. Read it again. He noted every physical violation in each event. Each physical act was a violation of MIT rules. Breaking into offices, disrupting classes, ratteling door knobs when students had locked themselves inside. Keeping people from getting to offices and classes. Physically intimidating individual students. Blocking a major Cambridge thoroughfare. But you saw nothing. You heard nothing. You did not care that every single such action is a violation of MIT's code of conduct. ANd in the case of Mass Ave, Cambridge City law.
Honestly, I don’t believe you saw nothing. I see you calling Jews at MIT liars just because they are Jews.
I think that just about all American students suck in history. Including recent history. And in geography (which could and should be taught as part of history, if not separately). And in political science.
Every few years, there is a push to weaken forced liberal arts studies--especially in regards to students doing STEM majors and the like. But all this mishegas shows the dangers of having ignorant people. And shows the benefits of giving those people more information. Yes, knowing where the Jordan River is, and where Israel and Gaza area, is entirely irrelevant to your studies of computer science or maths. But if your world-view is shaped (quite naturally) by the information you actually are exposed to; maybe high school and higher education ought to ensure that getting factual information about the world we live in should be more of a priority. Of course, some people will listen or read and will not care. But, at least, we've done what's reasonably possible.
The thing that strikes me is that none of the chanters, or their defenders, would ever be as solicitous of people marching on campus chanting "White lives matter." They would not say, "Well, maybe the marchers just didn't realize the implications of that chant, and meant something totally innocuous."
Like the teacher in Montera Middle School in Oakland who had a poster in class with the phrase on it? Who merely was forced to take it down?
What are you talking about? Do you think a White Lives Matter protest would have its slogan banned?
No, it's a self-aware Own the Libs chant for most, with little relationship to actual concern about white lives.
In the same way "from the river to the sea can be a self-aware Own the Jews chant with little true relationship to the the implied genocide of the term. (See next comment about that.)
'The Jews will not replace us' probably means something innocuous.
Are you ever going to get around to objecting to the gay-bashing bigotry on conservative campuses, Mr. Nieporent, or has partisanship obliterated your morals, character, principles, and judgment?
David, perhaps you can regale us - when people carry posters claiming that "White Lives Matter," as counter-protests to BLM protests, what do you think they are actually trying to say?
"White lives matter" is a pretty obvious retort to "Black lives matter".
"from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" sounds like a call for occupied Palestinian territories to be freed. The core of the misunderstanding is which territories Hamas considered to be occupied.
The students should understand better, but it's a lot easier to see how someone would misunderstand "from the river to the sea" than "white lives matter".
Yes.
We already know you're delusional. I was wondering about DMN.
You really think that a "a White Lives Matter protest"would be allowed at Penn, Harvard at MIT?
I think that you are the one who is delusional.
"but it’s a lot easier to see"
MIT students are not as stupid as you and grb and Randal think. They know full well what it means and what its implications are.