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Cass Sunstein on Unifying Principles of Liberalism
The famed Harvard law professor tries to outline a set of principles liberals - broadly defined - can agree on. And it's a strong effort, even though I have a few caveats and reservations.

In a recent New York Times article, the great Harvard law Professor Cass Sunstein outlines a set of 34 liberal principles he believes can command agreement across the liberal tradition. While Sunstein himself is a left-liberal, what today is commonly called a "progressive," the principles he outlines are intended to capture common ground shared by adherents of liberalism broadly defined, including those on the left and right, and libertarians. Sunstein also seeks to outline what separates liberals from illiberal forces on both left and right.
Impressively, Sunstein's effort has gotten praise from libertarian economist John Cochrane, even though he and Sunstein surely differ over many issues. Anything both Cochrane and Sunstein can agree on is a strong candidate for a genuinely unifying principle for liberals of all stripes!
I too think that Sunstein has done a good job of capturing several key unifying elements of the liberal tradition. But I have a few reservations, as well. In some cases, the liberal principles he outlines have radical implications that I am largely happy to endorse, but others - including Sunstein himself - might not be. Here, we have agreement on principles in part because there is serious disagreement about what they entail.
I won't try to go through all 34 principles. But I will comment on a few that strike me as especially important:
1. Liberals believe in six things: freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, the rule of law and democracy. They believe not only in democracy, understood to require accountability to the people, but also in deliberative democracy, an approach that combines a commitment to reason giving in the public sphere with the commitment to accountability.
I agree on five of these six, and differ on the last only in part. The partial exception is democracy. I think the evidence shows that democratic governments are superior to authoritarian states, in the vast majority of situations. But there are rare, but real exceptions where some form of authoritarianism may be less bad for liberal values (Sunstein's freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, and the rule of law) than democracy is.
When democracy conflicts with liberty and other more fundamental liberal values, I am happy to constrain the former in order to protect the latter. In addition, I am very skeptical that "deliberative democracy" can actually work in the real world, given widespread voter ignorance (which is an endemic structural weakness of democratic government, not merely a transitory one). From a liberal point of view, the main virtue of democracy is not deliberation, but the ability of voters to throw out rulers who cause great harm in obvious ways. Sunstein's previous writings indicate he shares some of these concerns about voter ignorance. But he and I have somewhat different prescriptions for addressing the problem.
More generally, there is a tension within the liberal tradition between those who give democracy a high priority relative to other values, and those who do not. That said, I think almost all liberals can agree that democracy - where feasible (sometimes, sadly, it isn't) - is preferable to dictatorship the vast majority of the time.
2. Understood in this way, liberalism does not mean "left" or "right." It consists of a set of commitments in political theory and political philosophy, with concrete implications for politics and law. In North America, South America, Europe and elsewhere, those who consider themselves to be conservatives may or may not embrace liberal commitments. Those who consider themselves to be leftists may or may not qualify as liberals. You can be, at once, a liberal, as understood here, and a conservative; you can be a leftist and illiberal. There are illiberal conservatives and illiberal leftists….
I agree completely. Though "conservative" and "leftist" are somewhat fuzzy terms that people can try to define in ways that preclude illiberalism.
3. Abraham Lincoln was a liberal. Here is what he said in 1854:
"If the Negro is a man, is it not to that extent, a total destruction of self-government, to say that he too shall not govern himself? When the white man governs himself that is self-government, but when he governs himself and also governs another man, that is more than self-government — that is despotism. … No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle — the sheet anchor of American republicanism."
We might change "American republicanism" to "liberalism." The idea of a sheet anchor is a useful way of linking self-government, in people's individual lives, with self-government as a political ideal.
I agree again! But this principle has radical implications that many who consider themselves liberals are reluctant to embrace. No actual government - including democratic governments - truly has the consent of the governed. Being able to cast one of many millions of votes in an election is not enough to make government meaningfully consensual. That doesn't necessarily make democratic governments illegitimate. Nonconsensual government may be justified because of beneficial consequences for other liberal values. But the more we value consent, the more we should support tight constraints on government power, and giving people opportunities to engage in "self-government" by voting with their feet (where they can make individually decisive choices) as opposed to at the ballot box.
4. Rejecting despotism, liberals prize the idea of personal agency. For that reason, they see John Stuart Mill's great work "The Subjection of Women" as helping to define the essence of liberalism. Like Lincoln, Mill insists on a link between a commitment to liberty and a particular conception of equality, which can be seen as a kind of anticaste principle: If some people are subjected to the will of others, we have a violation of liberal ideals. Many liberals have invoked an anticaste principle to combat entrenched forms of inequality on the basis of race, sex and disability. Liberals are committed to individual dignity.
I agree again! But there is a lot of disagreement among liberals about exactly what this principle entails for issues like affirmative action.
6. The rule of law is central to liberalism. The rule of law requires clear, general, publicly accessible rules laid down in advance. It calls for law that is prospective, allowing people to plan, rather than retroactive, defeating people's expectations. It requires conformity between law on the books and law in the world. It calls for rights to a hearing (due process of law). It forbids unduly rapid changes in the law. It does not tolerate contradictions or palpable inconsistency in the law. The rule of law is not the same as a commitment to freedom of speech, freedom of religion or freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. It is a distinctive ideal, and liberals adopt it as such.
Another point of agreement! This is also a great statement of what the rule of law is - and what it is not. Exercises of government power that adhere to the rule of law may nonetheless be unjust for other reasons. For liberals, adherence to the rule of law is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for a law to be just, and for there to be a moral obligation to obey it.
9. Liberal authoritarianism is an oxymoron. Illiberal democracy is illiberal, and liberals oppose it for that reason. Liberals reject illiberal populism.
I agree about illiberal democracy and populism. But for reasons noted in my comments on 1 above, I am not convinced that liberal authoritarianism is an oxymoron. It is highly unlikely to actually arise, but is not a logical impossibility. And, as discussed above, there can be rare situations where some feasible form of authoritarianism is less illiberal than any feasible form of democracy.
10. Liberals believe that freedom of speech is essential to self-government. They understand freedom of speech to encompass not only political speech but also literature, music and the arts (including cinema)….
Very much so! I fear too many people on both left and right are losing sight of this truth.
15. Liberals prize free markets, insisting that they provide an important means by which people exercise their agency. Liberals abhor monopolies, public or private, on the ground that they are highly likely to compromise freedom and reduce economic growth. At the same time, liberals know that unregulated markets can fail, such as when workers or consumers lack information or when consumption of energy produces environmental harm.
I mostly agree with this. But I think some monopolies may be less bad than available alternatives. And if you really think all monopolies are abhorrent, that has radical implications for many functions of government, such as its monopoly of law enforcement and legal adjudication, its control of key infrastructure, and so on. Along similar lines, it is true that "unregulated markets can fail." But it doesn't necessarily follow that government will do better in those situations.
16. Liberals believe in the right to private property. But nothing in liberalism forbids a progressive income tax or is inconsistent with large-scale redistribution from rich to poor. Liberals can and do disagree about the progressive income tax and on whether and when redistribution is a good idea. Many liberals admire Lyndon Johnson's Great Society; many liberals do not.
Disagreements over economic liberty and redistribution are a major internal dividing line for liberals. Sunstein is right about that. But worth noting that liberals should at least be able to agree on a presumption against redistribution and restrictions on private property that transfer resources to the non-poor - often at the expense of the most disadvantaged. Sadly, too many liberals ignore this problem, which is ubiquitous in many areas of government policy.
17. Many liberals are enthusiastic about the contemporary administrative state; many liberals reject it. Within liberalism, there are vigorous debates on that question. Some liberals like laws that require people to get vaccinated or to buckle their seatbelts; some liberals do not. Liberals have different views about climate change, immigration, the minimum wage and free trade.
There are indeed differences on this. But I think liberal principles of liberty and autonomy (embraced by Sunstein elsewhere in his list) at least create a strong presumption against paternalistic regulations and in favor of "my body my choice" - a principle that goes far beyond the admittedly difficult case of abortion. Liberal principles of liberty and equality also at least create strong presumptions against immigration and trade restrictions, which severely restrict people's liberty based on arbitrary circumstances of birth, similar to those underlying racial and ethnic discrimination. These are additional areas where liberal ideals have broad implications that many liberals shy away from.
24. Liberals favor and recognize the need for a robust civil society, including a wide range of private associations that may include people who do not embrace liberalism. They believe in the importance of social norms, including norms of civility, considerateness, charity and self-restraint. They do not want to censor any antiliberals or postliberals, even though some antiliberals or postliberals would not return the favor…..
Agree completely.
I won't reprint them or comment in detail. But I also strongly agree with Sunstein's points 28 and 29 regarding the extent and limits of liberal respect for tradition.
30. Liberals like laughter. They are anti-anti-laughter.
Not so sure about this one. Cackling villains - including many illiberals - like laughter too! It all depends on who and what you're laughing at.
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"And there is muh to be said for his effort."
Muh. Maybe even meh.
Remember when speeches about the “Axis of Evil” would get you fired up?? W, the President! I miss the days of slaughtering innocent Muslims. 🙁
ITYM "Mussulman". HTH. HAD.
Before ever responding to Kookland, remember: YHBT.
Innocent my arse -- that's like "innocent Nazis in Berlin.
And guess what -- East German records indicate that there were 127 military factories in Dresden.
Cass is a faux liberal; see: https://priorprobability.com/2023/11/27/why-cass-sunstein-is-faux-liberal-part-2/
and
https://priorprobability.com/2023/11/27/the-hypocrisy-of-cass-sunstein-part-3/
I read the first one, which was rather good.
It leaves one wondering what distinction Sunstein makes between “pluralism” – a core value, and “tribalism” – something to be deplored.
Being able to cast one of many millions of votes in an election is not enough to make government meaningfully consensual.
Sure, but that tacitly, and foolishly, supposes government is meant to be meaningfully consensual to each voter individually—an obvious impossibility. The actual ability, the actual power, is for the joint popular sovereign to cast ALL the votes in an election. And that does indeed make government meaningfully consensual in relation to the sovereign. Which is all the government accountability any single member of the joint sovereignty is entitled to.
A more serious objection to this review is lack of mention by Somin of sovereignty at all—a tic of libertarianism which prevents it from ever rising to the level of a theory of government. Until libertarians can reconcile themselves to posit a libertarian theory of sovereign power, they are destined to remain government critics in the best of times, and cranks otherwise.
A more serious objection to this review is lack of mention by Somin of sovereignty at all
Sovereignty is held by whoever has a monopoly on the use of force. It can be used for illiberal or liberal ends.
Sunstein and Somin address sovereignty by calling for democracy and universal rights, which allows the public to change who controls the sovereign power.
That's all you need.
You, of course, are a rube who was duped by the framers lies about "popular sovereignty", but the guys who control the guns are always sovereign and you can never be, unless you somehow take over the federal government as a dictator or overthrow it.
Esper, what do you think accounted for the fact that even in deep blue states, without any formal changes in law or policy, every governor in the nation backed away from sterner public health measures to control Covid, despite those remaining legal? The governors did that because the people who control elections were deeply divided on the issue, and the governors could readily muster majorities by abandoning minority interests of the most-threatened cohort of the population, in favor of a less-threatened majority. In short, perceived harm to a majority among the joint popular sovereign delivered aligned changes in government policy nationwide, without notable use of armed force.
Of course you are correct that the test of sovereignty is force, always has been, and always will be. Alas, no notable nation state since the Enlightenment seems to have been founded on any other basis. Even pre-Columbian nation states in the Western Hemisphere seem to have been founded and maintained on the basis of force.
Important distinctions have originated only from political schemes to hold forceful sovereigns accountable by distributing that sovereign power among those who stand to be harmed by it if it is misused. By that means, if they can keep it, they govern themselves with better satisfaction than they can achieve otherwise.
Your jibe that, "the guys who control the guns are always sovereign," (and I can never be) seems similar to the often reiterated libertarian error to suppose government must be accountable to each person individually—an obvious impossibility. The founders' notion of sovereignty was never about individual power. It was always about joint power wielded in concert by a joint sovereignty, so that sovereign abuses of power would be felt directly by members of the joint sovereignty. That insight revolutionized notions of proper government world-wide.
I remain fairly certain you have no alternative to offer which is both a practical basis to found a nation state and constrain its government, and also a means to better regulate sovereign power. If you do, surprise me and explain how to do it.
Massachusetts Charlie Baker (R) didn't run for re-election, did he?
Baker, the "most popular Governor in America", realized that he'd created so much ill will with his COVID policies that even the Republicans would vote for any Democratic opponent.
I'll take "things that obviously didn't happen" for $1,000, Alex.
"You, of course, are a rube who was duped by the framers lies about “popular sovereignty”, but the guys who control the guns are always sovereign and you can never be, unless you somehow take over the federal government as a dictator or overthrow it."
You guys might be using the term "sovereignty" differently.
Yeah, but why take the reasonable approach when you can hurl an insult instead?
I've always felt that the real power of a vote is the power to remove. We've removed dozens of federal presidents by vote, but none by impeachment, for example.
We've removed 10 presidents by vote, the 4th was voted back in 4 years later, and the 10th seems to have a reasonable chance of doing the same.
Right. Although the power to choose certainly exists in some elections- 1860 (and perhaps any number of pre-Civil War elections) is a good example of this.
The key point in response to Lathrop is that voting is not sovereignty and doesn't require any fancy theory of sovereignty-- you just get some say, under the conditions set for you by the authorities (such as only every 4 years and subject to the weirdness that is the electoral college, which among other things effectively disenfranchises entire states!), over the direction that the sovereign will take.
And importantly, that, along with some speech and assembly and petition rights, is all you get. The public has no way of directly controlling the government. Nor could it be practically given one-- that might work on the town council level, but the most any large state can grant you is some say over the selection of leaders and broad policies.
You keep managing to impale yourself on Lathrop's Spear: "the often reiterated libertarian error to suppose government must be accountable to each person individually."
No state is "effectively disenfranchised" by the electoral college. That Hawaii reliably votes blue means that Hawaii's popular sovereignty is reliably represented, not that it's disenfranchised.
I think the issue with democracy is that Prof. Somin is viewing it as a means to an end, whereas Prof. Sunstein is citing it as an axiomatic good, alongside freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, the the rule of law.
I concur with Prof. Sunstein that democracy is an inherent good. People getting a voice in their government is a morally correct way to be.
If rational ignorance means the policies aren't optimized, well, welcome to the human race. And take solace that we get the government we deserve.
Democracy is an inherent evil. It is only an inherent good, seemingly, because of the famous “except for all the other forms of government” ordinality. That was a joke, except it's not a joke.
It is an abstraction of might makes right, and should be treated as such. In and of itself, it blesses, makes Holy and Ok, absolutely nothing, and can, and has, been used to override freedoms all the time, especially using simple majorities.
Politicians hold vox populi vox dei up as a detached ultimate value because that is how they gain their power most easily — yet convincing a transient bare majority is the demagogue’s stock in trade.
And you need power, so the little man behind the curtain can help his family’s fortunes go up at multiples of the rate of the frontpiece’s official salary.
This is how the majority of the world, and almost all human history operates or operated, openly. They just have to hide it better in the west.
It is a dangerous thing, needing guard rails, defined by supermajority democracy, for any hope of legitimacy, defined as thwarting the greatest cause of misery to humanity, corrupt government aka dictatorships.
“ The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them."
Democracy isn't necessarily that bad, but it trends in that direction, yeah. Even if you don't have a distinct oppressing class, it's still a way of deciding who does the oppressing, rather than an alternative to oppression.
And, sure, it's better that the many oppress the few, rather than the other way around, just on a statistical basis, and functioning democracy is reasonably good at arranging that. With the proviso that the people running the democracy are perpetually looking for ways to render it non-functional.
Democracy is kind of like free market capitalism, in a way: It depends on creating positive incentives for people in power to benefit others, but it also creates an incentive for those subject to those positive incentives to find some way to escape their operation.
Adam Smith's "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." has its analog for politicians.
You utterly miss the idea of any kind of inherent good in democracy, versus being a mere instrument.
You have, in the past, argued that capitalism is an inherent good, because it maximized economic freedom a priori of any beneficial outcome.
Yet here, you seem to analogize free market capitalism as another instrument just like democracy.
I think economic freedom is a pinched sense of what actual human liberty is, so I find that in contrast to the consent of the governed/accountability of the governor that democracy inherently contains, the freedom markets inherently contain is incomplete.
Markets are a useful tool. Democracy is good for reasons beyond it's utility.
"You utterly miss the idea of any kind of inherent good in democracy, versus being a mere instrument."
No, I utterly reject the idea of any inherent good in democracy. It IS a mere instrument. It's a useful instrument when it's actually necessary that everybody get the same choice, but where that's not necessary, it's offensive.
Imagine you walk into a hamburger joint. You are about to order a cheeseburger with no pickles or onions. Cool!
Two more people walk in. They LOVE pickles and onions, but they really dislike cheese. So you all three get hamburgers with pickles and onions, no cheese.
That's so wonderful, isn't it? It's so much better than you each getting the burger you actually wanted!
Yet again you are looking at outcomes. Do you not know what inherent means?
We are talking about the moral foundations of *politics.* You gotta give me that leviathan state or your analogy is inapplicable.
Finally, note the other inherent goods Sunstein cites - they are going to sometimes be in tension with one another. Essentializing democracy misses the whole liberal project.
Yes, I'm looking at outcomes. Why shouldn't I? Because the mystical wonder of democracy makes the sucky outcomes so much better?
Look, there are things where it hardly matters what we decide, but we all have to agree. What side of the road do we drive on? Individual choice isn't feasible for such things, and democracy is no worse than flipping a coin, so why not vote?
Then there are things where what I get has nothing to do with what you get. Like me ordering a fish sandwich and you ordering a burger: My sandwich doesn't hurt your burger experience at all, and visa versa; There's no reason at all we shouldn't get to make our own choices, voting is affirmatively bad here.
In-between, of course, are topics where choices aren't utterly independent, but neither are they tightly coupled. You have to reason out individually where voting is best, or finding some way to minimize the impact of disparate choices is better.
Thinking that voting is itself a good, rather than just a means to the good, will cause you to weight those decisions in favor of collective decision making! But, I don't know about you, but most people don't get any extra thrill out of being forced to do what everybody voted to do. Voting is just a bother, and losing the vote a pain.
You need axiomatic moral goals to start from or you've got nothing to optimize too.
I note you don't challenge the inherent goodness of freedom, human rights, etc.
So what makes democracy different?
Tis true, arguing over what's a moral axiom and what's just an instrument to reach those aims is hard. But that's kind of the whole post here.
Your arguments in this post seem to be taking democracy to mean direct democracy. That's not a requirement anyone has brought up till you just now.
Direct democracy is kind of a Schelling-point/reductio-ad-absurdam.
If you don't go all the way, there is some limiting principle you believe in that trumps democracy. Can you articulate it?
"So what makes democracy different?'
It is method or means toward the good, not the good in itself.
Democracy as the OP uses it seems to encompass any model wherein the populace has a voice in government. Representation, referenda, all seem to fit into the discussion.
What makes democracy different from freedom, human rights, etc?
That's actually pretty simple: freedom, human rights, etc, are all individual.
You're free. He's free. She's free. You may exercise your freedom differently from her, but you're all, as individuals, free. YOU read that book. Somebody else reads a different book. They can read a different book than you because you each, individually, have that freedom.
Democracy, by contrast, is inherently collective. You may get your own vote, but it's a vote on what will be forced on all of you, the winners AND the losers of the vote.
"But how should those restrictions be decided? Democracy is the best way because it honors each individual’s voice. But Brett hates that because he’s an inherent authoritarian, respecting each individual’s voice might get restrictions Brett doesn’t like, so it’s bad."
Wow. As the saying goes, that's not even wrong.
"Democracy is the best way because it honors each individual’s voice."
Yeah, I really care, as you restrict my choices, that you "honored my voice". As in listening to me scream in horror, "No!" before doing it anyway. That's so much better than you just doing unto me without listening...
"But Brett hates that because he’s an inherent authoritarian, respecting each individual’s voice might get restrictions Brett doesn’t like,"
Get that? I'm an authoritarian because I DON'T like restrictions!
Of course, the trick here is that Queenie takes the existence of the restrictions as a given, excludes all considerations of just having fewer of them. So, if I complain about restrictions, it MUST be because I want different restrictions, not that I think people should be left alone.
I agree with Brett on this discussion: is democracy the best tool we’ve ever come up with for managing government power or is democracy an inherent good?
It’s a great, if flawed, tool, not an inherent good in itself.
If we’re deciding where to eat as a group, it may be a useful tool to vote on it. It’s sometimes better to let one person decide, say on their birthday.
With government power, the greatest usefulness of democracy is that it helps prevent one person or party from becoming permanently entrenched in the seat of power. But Brett is absolutely right that democracy is not great for every decision (deciding what books everyone must or can’t read, for example).
Those of you advocating for democracy being an inherent good, in and of itself, haven’t articulated a strong, coherent argument for that position. You just keep disagreeing with Brett when he talks about the utility of democracy. We get you think there’s more to it than the utility of it, but what?
And, as with Brett, I don’t think much of the idea that it’s good because everyone is “heard” even those who don’t win, who never win.
None of this should be taken to undermine precisely how important democracy is, how it unequivocally is the best tool we have and, so, it’s undermining is the worst crime you can commit against America. But it’s because you are kneecapping the best tool we have, not because democracy itself is anything other than a means to laudable ends (and why it’s so important in democracies to protect human rights and certain essential freedoms from the democratic process while allowing enough “play in the joints” that society doesn’t rip itself apart).
Brett, the following are not aspects of the individual but of the group: pluralism, security, the the rule of law.
Your pinched sense of freedom, alongside elevating it above all other inherent goods, makes you illiberal. Just like security over freedom, freedom over everything results in a loss of everything, even freedom.
Illeftist, anyway. Liberal in the original meaning of the term.
Sarcastro : the following are not aspects of the individual but of the group: pluralism, security, the the rule of law.
1. plurality is not a end in itself, it is something that might, and probably will, emerge from individuals exercising their freedom. It is no more a value than are baked goods. 2. security (in the sense of military defense and law enforcement) and the rule of law are mechanisms for safeguarding the freedom of the individual, not ends in themselves. And we often see “security” abused to deprive people of their freedom. Security is necessary but dangerous – quis custodiet ipsos custodes territory. 3. the rule of law is a valuable protector of freedom, though it is always under threat from those who would like courts to use their discretion to promote ‘the common good.”
Your pinched sense of freedom, alongside elevating it above all other inherent goods, makes you illiberal.
As neat an encapsulation of the inversion of “liberal” as one could wish to see. To value freedom above conflicting “goods” doesn’t just make you wrong, it makes you “illiberal.”
"Democracy is the best way because it honors each individual’s voice. But Brett hates that because he’s an inherent authoritarian, respecting each individual’s voice might get restrictions Brett doesn’t like, so it’s bad.”"
Freedom is slavery!
'Liberal in the original meaning of the term' is bucking the OP. I think it makes a powerful argument that 'But I don't like it and I consider myself a liberal' is insufficient to answer.
Lee - did you read the OP? It explains the inherent goodness of each of these (to the extent such things can be argued). Declaring they are not axioms but rather means to an end is fine and all, but not too convincing.
Lots of 'I disagree with Sunstein and Somin but still wanna call myself a classical liberal.'
Welp, you're a conservatives, at best. Deal with it.
I read the OP, in which I spotted no offerings as to the inherent value of democracy. From which I conclude :
1. You are making things up, or
2. I am a lazy reader, or
3. the "inherent goodness" of democracy is perhaps explained in the NYT article, which I have not read.
I will plead guilty, instantly, to 2. But it would be helpful if you would point out precisely where in the OP (or elsewhere) the inherent value of democracy is expounded.
Lots of ‘I disagree with Sunstein and Somin but still wanna call myself a classical liberal.’
Ok, the "but" was funny.
How would you have one establish inherent value?
I'd remind you that the thesis of the OP is that certain inherent values are shared by the right and left sides of liberalism.
It doesn't try very hard to establish the why's, because establishing inherent value via argumentation is nigh impossible. (Though Prof. Somin gives is a try in some places!)
Like anything…it works until it stops working.
What does it mean for a policy to be inherently good absent some correlation with good outcomes?
If you don't mind, I'd like to answer that question with another - what are good outcomes?
At some point, *something* has to be inherent.
And the other five elements of liberalism seem an adequate response.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate democracy. And I believe all the other goals get trashed if democracy is not actually followed. But unfortunately also sometimes when it is.
I concur that there is plenty arbitrary about this, but why are the 5 adequate, and not 6? or 4?
I agree that democracy can sometimes be in tension with the other items. Rights, freedom, and plurality all spring to mind.
But that alone is insufficient to kick something from the inherent good club. Freedom and rule of law are also in tension at times. And yet both are agreed as inherent goods.
In the end, I can talk about accountability but it kinda devolves to personal preference. I think I'm right, but I'm not sure how to argue anything positive, just shoot down your arguments I'm wrong :-P.
I'm sometimes surprised how interesting I find moral philosophy these days, given how much it's based on vibes.
Sarc, you keep attacking others for not being able to explain why democracy isn't an inherent good, but you haven't offered a reasonable explanation for why it is without referring to outcomes. Give that a try.
tkamenick, that's a fair put. As I noted in the comment you replied to: "In the end, I can talk about accountability but it kinda devolves to personal preference. I think I’m right, but I’m not sure how to argue anything positive, just shoot down your arguments I’m wrong :-P.
Axioms are axioms.
But I would note that the OP is talking axioms as well.
"Axioms are axioms."
If they serve no articulable purpose, no rational basis of providing benefit, then what is an axiom? Just words? I mean, one doesn't adopt an axiom without purpose, does one?
I understand a notion of axioms adopted without purpose beyond subordination to a "god" or some other matter of "faith." But in this talk of democracy being "inherently good," without requiring the good to be understood in terms of benefit to people, it is indistinguishable from dogma.
Brett is at least committed to a reasoned approach to the answers. Sarc bottoms out, surprisingly and unsurprisingly, at dogma (a.k.a. "religion", "orthodoxy").
"We are talking about the moral foundations of *politics.* You gotta give me that leviathan state or your analogy is inapplicable."
Politics has no moral foundations.
Tell that to Locke. Or Bentham. Or Marx. Or Nozick.
You're coming at an entire philosophical discipline.
Your analogy is deficient. A better one is you walk into a restaurant with a group of people and you all have to agree on what will be ordered, because the kitchen can only make one meal that feeds everyone.
In that scenario democracy isn't just an inherent "good", it's literally the only fair way to do it.
Except that if you walk into a restaurant, you generally find that, even if you enter as a group, you CAN each order what you want. All of you having to order the same thing is an extremely unusual situation, because we DON'T impose democracy on restaurants.
But you might impose it on restaurants, if you viewed democracy as a positive good in and of itself, rather than just the least bad way of dealing with those unfortunate cases where individual choice isn't possible.
And that was my point: In the real world, democracy does not improve the restaurant experience, because there really isn't any reason the choice has to be collective. It's only an instrumental good, and only even that in situations where collective decision making is unavoidable.
This is why your analogy is bad. Consumer-facing businesses are not much like the state writ large.
Your assumption of generalization of inherent goodness across all situations is trivially not a good assumption.
Democracy being an inherent good in government does not mean that it is an inherent good in all institutions.
Just like freedom in the military
Or rule of law when raising a child
" Consumer-facing businesses are not much like the state writ large."
A big reason for that is that consumer facing businesses require your individual consent in order to take your money, and it's opt in, too, not opt out, so the default is that they DON'T get your money. So they're under serious pressure to make you, as an individual, happy with what you're paying for, by giving you, as an individual, what you want.
The first sign that a business has achieved monopoly status is that it stops caring if you're happy, because it no longer needs to care. So it stops providing individualized service.
The government starts out already a monopoly, and it has the power to take your money without your individual consent, so it has no particular need to make you, as an individual, happy. And once it's in power displacing it is extremely hard, so it doesn't even have to make the majority terribly happy, just not unhappy enough to oust it from power.
So it's got basically no motive for allowing people individualized choices.
When there's only one thing/resource/power that has to be shared, you will need to deploy a distributed decision-making process of some kind to have ANY individual leverage at all. That's the "inherently good" part of democracy. It is just such a process.
This fact is also why the joke about democracy being better than all the alternatives works. It's the nugget of truth that we all acknowledge.
My choice of hamburger doesn't affect yours, so that's not a particularly good analogy.
Some people would like to be allowed to drive 120mph while swigging beer. Should speed limits not apply to them?
Some would like to smoke in places where there are lots of people who prefer not to have to inhale second-smoke. How should we deal with this conflict? Note that this is a pure Coasian conflict, government is necessarily involved in resolving it.
I think the mistake you make is in conflating "democracy" with government. There are things you don't want government to do, like tell you what kind of hamburger to eat. But that dislike applies to any government, not just democratic ones.
If you are prepared to admit that we need some government then the issue is what the best form is.
Some would like to smoke in places where there are lots of people who prefer not to have to inhale second-smoke. How should we deal with this conflict? Note that this is a pure Coasian conflict, government is necessarily involved in resolving it.
Er, a business contains a bunch of people, lots of whom (the workers) think they should be paid more, and a few of whom (the management / owners) think they should be paid what they currently get. Do we really need the government to resolve this conflict ?
I suppose that in the sense that some kind of goverment is required to enforce contracts then we need the government. But we don't really need the government to think up some special compromise. We only need the government to enforce the deal that was agreed voluntarily.
The same applies - in most cases - for smoke. Tobacco smoke is only a genuine externality in very specific environments. Mostly it's in a building where everyone is there voluntarily. And the building has an owner, or tenant, who admits people on his terms.
So what is the inherent good of democracy ?
I said it above, but it's getting to be a long thread.
Accountability.
Or, to quote someone better than I: "government of the people, by the people, for the people."
The accountability of democratic governments to the voter is hardly unique. All governments are accountable to whoever can hurt them or remove them.
King John found he was accountable to the barons. James Carville joked that he wished to be reincarnated at the bond markets as they seemed to hold unlimited power over the President.
Democratic accountability is only special, in the sense that the accountability is democratic. Which is a circle.
All governments are accountable to whoever can hurt them or remove them.
What the fuck? Civil War is not an accountability exercise.
Most folks get the virtue of “government of the people, by the people, for the people”. If you don't, I can't change your moral axioms. I can point out that when pressed they get weird.
You have read the Declaration of Independence, right ?
The American Revolution as an exercise in holding the British Crown accountable is a take.
I believe our grievances came down to more fundamental things than shitty governance, though. Dignity. Liberty. That kinda thing.
Regardless, I think you've lost the thread. Because accountability that does not include killing a lot of people seems a pretty inherent good, if your comparison is bloody revolution.
I agree that peaceful methods of accountability are preferable to non peaceful ones.
But
1. a peaceful method does not have to be democratic - anything that uses a legal path can do that
2. any peaceful method requires the acquiescence of the government itself. If it chooses not to go, the accountability can only be achieved by the threat of force or other harm
My reading of his argument is that democracy's inherent good doesn't just come from accountability in general, but because it holds the government accountable to the people being governed. At least theoretically.
I think, theoretically, that this is a fair point
Brett -- there are differences between a REPUBLIC (which the US is) and a democracy. Big differences including rights of the individual.
No - they are the same thing.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/01/19/the-u-s-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy/
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-government-and-civics/us-gov-primary-documents/primary-documents-in-us-government-and-civics/a/federalist-no-10
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. ……
A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies from pure democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union.
The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.
This is 2023 tho.
Freedom is the value to put on the pedestal, not democracy. Democracy should be in service to freedom. Politicians scream democracy, en route to overriding freedom. Resist the siren call because these are the same dominators of the universe wrecking things for thousands of years, and they need their power, and will have it, be it might makes right, or an abstraction of might makes right.
Or, don't put any one value on a pedestal because that's a recipe for a zealosly myopic bad government
Roger Scruton made a good point when he referred to the tyranny of those living right now that oppresses history and those who have come before.
Krayt, what are your recommendations for the average strap-hanger?
"I concur with Prof. Sunstein that democracy is an inherent good."
Yes, that is exactly the problem with the left's worship of democracy. Because democracy ISN'T an inherent good. It's just a least bad way of making collective decisions. Least bad because, if somebody is inevitably going to be oppressed, it's better that it be the minority than the majority. But not all decisions NEED to be collective!
The belief that democracy is a positive good, rather than least bad, leads left-liberals to prefer it over individual choice, even where individual choice is perfectly feasible.
the left’s worship of democracy
No, Brett, that's *America* who is really into democracy. You turning authoritarian on me?
I explained why I thought it was an inherent good: "People getting a voice in their government is a morally correct way to be."
It's hard to argue an axiom like goodness, but accountability by both the governed and the governor is baked into the system. This is Good. Just like freedom is Good, and human rights, pluralism, security, the the rule of law.
Meanwhile you're stuck indicting the left for being too into the American Experiment.
"anti-democracy" can mean either of two things: pro-autocracy, or pro-anarchy.
The problem, of course, is that in practice anarchy seems to be susceptible to take-over by autocracy. There's lots of things that neither break my bones nor pick my pocket that still infuriate my neighbor to the point that the entire community intervenes.
Concur.
Yeah, that's why I gave up on being an anarcho-capitalist. Anarchy might be an ideal state, but it's not a stable ideal state. It would break down almost instantly, and like as not into something much, much worse.
That's why, as we're presently constituted, we need a certain amount of government. Government might be an evil, but it's a necessary evil, sadly.
The problem comes in when you conclude, as many do, that because it's necessary, it can't really be evil. Drop recognizing that it's evil, and you'll end up with more of it than is absolutely necessary. You'll fight to have more than is needed, and get excess evil as a result.
Vaccinations, for example, are a necessary evil. In a world without disease, who would be sticking needles into themselves? Only the mentally ill! But if you actually thought that vaccination was a positive good, you'd insist on it even where it wasn't needed, and be guilty of sticking needles into people where there was nothing to be gained from it. You'd rationalize that the jab was necessary, of course, but you'd be irrationally dismissing evidence it wasn't, because the jab had become a good in its own right, in your mind.
Hm, maybe more of the left's evil is attributable to confusing necessary evils with actual goods than I'd realized...
Brett explains that perfectly. Democracy isn't an inherent good, it's simply the best currently-known system for achieving things that are inherently good. Other forms of government are CAPABLE of outcomes better than outcomes found in some democracies, they are just much less likely to do so. Given no other information, any sane person would choose to live in a democracy. Given the information of actual standards within the country, you could reasonably choose to live under an enlightened liberal despot rather than an fascist democracy.
Which really strengthens Somin's points about free travel and foot voting.
And this is why I am so fascinated to follow what happens in Argentina now that they have elected an actual self professed AnCap as President.
Probably nothing. He doesn't have a majority in the legislature.
Probably, but there is a lot of public anger and desire for change, any change. It can be amazing what complete economic collapse can bring about.
The discussion is rather untethered from reality. Democracy where, by whom?
Imagine a worldwide democracy. Same as our uniparty but global. You get a choice between stooge A and stooge B, both propped up by donors and parties. Or the 2 choices are even somewhat more genuine. But either way, I’m afraid all matters of government and public concern, though infinitely diverse and localized, will be distilled into this binary.
That’s a joke, a laughable ruse. There’s no self-government or self-determination in that.
So “democracy?” isn’t even a very useful question on its own.
You are describing a rather undemocratic democracy. Latin America is known for that a poli-sci prof of mine called 'shallow democracies.'
Pretense of democracy is not democracy. Not when we're talking about political philosophy like we are here.
See also DPRK, etc. etc.
FPTP seems to lead to terrible choices. STV/IRV too. I'd like to at least see approval tried at the large scale.
Unfortunately, I think the true problem is people's preferences.
ML was talking more about social political malaise, not the actual system of voting.
But yeah, you highlight a nontrivial implementation problem. I don't know enough about the mathing it out to opine beyond that.
Voting doesn't really have enough bandwidth to transmit the voters' actual views, and the more government is doing, the worse it gets.
Say that there's only one salient policy dispute. A-B voting is a perfect fit for that, your vote can exactly express which of the two alternatives on offer you actually want. (IF they're not both on the same side, of course! Making sure that doesn't happen is what primaries are good for.)
Once there are two salient policy disputes, you start running into situations where candidate A agrees with you on issue 1, but disagrees on issue 2. Candidate B? The reverse. A single binary vote no longer allows you to express your opinion.
Now, if the parties actually have coherent ideologies, and the parties' candidates are strict about following them, this problem can be evaded to some extent. You can vote for ideology rather than particular issue, particular issues tend to correlate with ideology. That's a lot more likely in a multi-party system, rather than a practical duopoly like we have.
In the duopoly, one party ends up dominating a given area, which leads to people who actually disagree with that ideology entering the party anyway because they WANT to be in politics, and the dominant party is the only practical route. So you start finding that you vote for the ideology, and end up getting its opposite a lot of the time, because the candidates are often just lying about their actual views.
I think this problem is really insoluble, due to the low bandwidth of voting, and the best you can do is minimize how much government does, to minimize the complexity of the signal you're trying to funnel through that single bit you're allotted.
This is correct. Multiply the policy issues by thousands or millions, and you begin to lose any semblance of self-government or voters "having a say" in anything. These dynamics make things generally dysfunctional, and then you get a permanent administrative state, and decisions are delegated to them. You can have a say in your local town and maybe state, but not really in D.C. It's almost getting to the point of being a farce, at least that's the increasing perception of the situation.
Also, a fish rots from the head, so the dysfunctional situation at the top unfortunately poisons everything below. Your state and local politics that would otherwise have nothing to do with some national issue that has become the outrage du jour, get disrupted and ruined by affiliation with the national parties for example. But it's much worse than that, also infecting businesses, churches, organizations, even family relationships. And people dig in and form their identities around these things, just like conflicts throughout human history, exacerbating the situation.
"I think this problem is really insoluble, due to the low bandwidth of voting, and the best you can do is minimize how much government does, to minimize the complexity of the signal you’re trying to funnel through that single bit you’re allotted."
But you can't do that, that's the whole problem. How are you going to make that choice for other people, and over what jurisdiction? That's just another choice, the main one even, that can't get through. Government as a system always wants to grow itself. Maybe the best you can do is to have more governments with limited physical jurisdictions, more decentralization.
You realize he's describing America currently, right? Only on a larger scale?
Nah, the parties have legit distinctions between them. Fringey extremist claim otherwise, but has ever been thus.
You missed the point of my comment. Assume there plenty of "legit distinctions" between the choices in my hypothetical. It doesn't matter, because a binary choice between two politicians or parties can never reflect, capture, or implement diverse preferences across an ever widening sphere of matters of government or public concern.
Sarcastro,
"You are describing a rather undemocratic democracy."
Yes. I agree with your comment here.
I posit a general principle that any centralized democracy will necessarily be less and less democratic, the more geographical territory and populations and diverse cultures that it has within its jurisdiction.
My reasoning for this should be obvious from the preceding comment.
I think this is the relevant distinction, yes. But I don't understand why anyone in the debate would care why their opponent has an obviously wrong understanding, rather than just being irredeemably evil with a different moral framework.
Ah, but they both respect plurality, which mitigates against a slightly different moral framework meaning irredeemable evilness!
Labels are misleading, and have 'changed' over time. (as in propagandized)
Either your primary preference is for individual freedom, or for state control of the populace by any means.
Exactly. The former are classic liberals. The latter are today's "liberals." What a joke...
Is "Liberals believe in using 'Read More'" on the list?
"But there are rare, but real exceptions where some form of authoritarianism may be less bad for liberal values (Sunstein's freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, and the rule of law) than democracy is."
The problem with this is that it requires a benign dictator, and while those aren't quite unicorns, they're damned rare, and don't breed true even if you find one.
So, you may luck into one, like winning the lottery, but planning on having one is just stupid.
Considering the Electoral College gave us Bush and Trump…maybe having a system in which the second place contestant becomes the leader isn’t such a good idea?!? Maybe we should go with the candidate that is the first place finisher. 😉
Both of them won a majority of electoral votes.
And even if you have one, succession is a bitch.
Agreed, but we are talking about philosophies of governance here, so it's an important distinction to make. With free travel, if your enlightened despot turns unenlightened, you can leave.
Removing the bulk of governmental decisions from the provenance of the states and putting them in the hands a small group of unelected federal judges can be considered a form of authoritarianism. One that some people think is benevolent and an improvement.
Only if you ignore the human rights bit of the OP.
Right's can't be an abstract thing; some institution has to be responsible for instantiating them. And that is in tension with democracy.
From Sunstein’s article:
“On the left, some people insist that liberalism is exhausted and dying and unable to handle the problems posed by entrenched inequalities, corporate power and environmental degradation. On the right, some people think that liberalism is responsible for the collapse of traditional values, rampant criminality, disrespect for authority and widespread immorality.”
I’ve seen some postliberals attack liberalism on *all* these fronts.
Sunstein’s description of liberalism reminds me of what was once said about a certain book: the good parts are not original, and the original parts are not good. The rule of law, for example. It’s good, but liberals didn’t invent it, they took it from a pre-existing Western tradition. Likewise “restrict[ing] both public and private violence.”
Some of his ideas are stated at a stratospheric level of generality.
Some of his definitions are No True Scotsmanisms. Bad ideas from other liberals are simply read out of liberalism. Woodrow Wilson is widely regarded as a liberal, but he believed in racial caste. Therefore, I suppose everyone who thinks Wilson was a liberal are wrong.
“Skeptical of identity politics”? Back in the 19th century, European liberals were championing nationalism. Now they’re not endorsing nationalism by individual European states, but they’ve found other forms of identity politics.
Supportive of free speech? If that definition were rigidly enforced, the liberal proportion of the population would be greatly decreased.
The right to vote? Sure, so long as you leave policymaking on important issues to corporations, the civil service, the judiciary, and other people you don’t elect.
Freedom of religion? Sure, unless you’re in one of those extremist, clinger religions which teach that God created male and female, that marriage is for uniting men and women, etc., etc.
“Liberal authoritarianism is an oxymoron.” Right, and liberals intend to pound this down the clingers’ throats until they submit.
“liberals know that unregulated markets can fail” – an insight foreign to every preliberal system of thought. (/sarc)
“Liberals abhor the idea that life or politics is a conflict between friends and enemies.” If you disagree with that, you’re a clinger headed for replacement. Open wide!
“Liberals think that on both left and right, many antiliberals and postliberals have manufactured an opponent and called it liberalism without sufficiently engaging with the liberal tradition or actual liberal thinkers.” Physician, heal thyself.
Liberals support “robust civil society…norms of civility, considerateness, charity and self-restraint” – with all this No True Scotsmanism, how many liberals will be left?
“Liberals…like to think that the arc of history bends toward justice.” How can it, when there are so few liberals left, with many people others considered liberals being read out of the movement by Sunstein?
Yeah, I absolutely wouldn't consider Woodrow Wilson a liberal, merely aligned with them on a small set of issues that were salient at the time.
I bet he didn't even like haggis!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ig2qZEiNv8&ab_channel=PitmasterX
Woodrow Wilson wasn't at all a "liberal" in the modern sense of the word (whatever that is). He was a progressive in the early 1900's sense of the word. That included or allowed a lot of bad things, by today's standards.
He was a liberal in his time. If liberals are able to disavow him now, who among today's liberals will get disavowed in future by the liberals of *that* time?
If liberalism is so malleable, then what happens to the 39 articles - oops, I mean 34 principles - of the liberal faith?
"1. Liberals believe in six things: freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, the rule of law and democracy. …
2. Understood in this way, liberalism does not mean "left" or "right." … "
This may not be a left right thing, but actual existing modern American conservatives seem to be defining themselves in opposition to much of this.
100%
This comment isn't very interesting without specific examples. As they say, opinions are cheap -- everybody has one. If you have some facts for us to argue over, let's hear 'em!
Joe Biden, champion of freedom and the rule of law. Riiiight...
actual existing modern American progressives define themselves in opposition to much of it, too. That's kind of the whole point of trying to define liberalism from first principles, even if you don't agree with the specifics.
Which side is taking away our gas stoves?
Neither.
The free market economy that is deprioritizing gas in the long run for cheaper sources of energy.
https://www.reportprime.com/phosphatidylserine-r151
I am not convinced that liberal authoritarianism is an oxymoron. It is highly unlikely to actually arise, but is not a logical impossibility. And, as discussed above, there can be rare situations where some feasible form of authoritarianism is less illiberal than any feasible form of democracy.
Nonsense. Liberals believe in collective action directed by government for the common good. They believe that especially in terms of managing existential crises which threaten to put an end to the nation, or to kill a notable fraction of everyone. Things like deadly pandemics, or foreign invasions.
Lincoln explained those notions thoroughly in his July 4, 1861 address to Congress. In the context of the times, Lincoln was right.
When the nation confronts an existential emergency, someone has to manage it, or the nation will fail. In such circumstances, any condition for decision which rules out authoritarian response is likely to deliver instant chaos, and thus end any possibility of governance. It would be even less promising to suppose that any such decision would save the nation.
So the choice in that kind of uncommon but entirely predictable circumstance is not between authoritarian or non-authoritarian means. It is only a choice between which authoritarians will manage the crisis. To paraphrase a remark from the Korematsu Court, “It must be either the Court or the Administration, and it cannot be the Court.”
For that insight alone, the Korematsu Court ought to be remembered favorably, whatever its other failings. It is not a soothing insight, but it is correct.
Oh nooos, a racist country did something racist…I think I’m gonna faint!?!
Why can't it be the court? Decision by nine is terrible, but it seems better than decision by one.
Why? What makes nine times something better than one times something? Is there something that forces diversity of thought within the nine that would not force a similar diversity of thought in the one?
If diversity of thought is the deciding factor, the more people you have thinking the more likely you are to have diversity of thought.
Ok, the worst dictatorships also are concerned with that, at least the latter. The former, eh, thin out the herd.
Krayt, during any such unmanaged thinning process you can expect national sovereignty to disappear, taking with it the national economy, and leaving instead a mostly ungovernable chaos. Whatever the danger of lasting dictatorship might be—and I concede that is always a risk when authoritarian means are authorized—it is a lesser risk than descent into anarchy.
Indeed, historical experience suggests that doing nothing during an unchecked deadly contagion is one of the likelier routes to extended authoritarian rule afterwards—quite likely authoritarian rule imposed from elsewhere. Consider the history of Europe during and after the 13th century. Or the fate of the indigenous populations of Mexico and Central America.
Perhaps your, "thin out the herd," remark was not meant seriously?
'The former, eh, thin out the herd.'
What was supposed to have been a conspiracy is policy for some.
They believe that especially in terms of managing existential crises which threaten to put an end to the nation, or to kill a notable fraction of everyone. Things like deadly pandemics, or foreign invasions.
Unless, of course, they were responsible for bringing on said existential crisis, in which case they believe especially in suppressing any information that might expose their guilt.
Frankly, the Christian understanding of how evil lives in the heart of every person is just so much more reliable and relatable as a worldview than believing that people will choose the collective good over personal gain. The Framers understood that much about human nature, I think, which is why they sliced up the power map and sicced the branches on each other.
DaveM, the Framers collectively were among the least religious generation of Americans prior to the present. But I do think you have set forward concisely what has always terrified me about a certain species of self-identified Christians. Fortunately, I was privileged to escape that milieu at an early age, and thereafter grew up among neighbors quite unlike those you describe.
Fortunately, I was privileged to escape that milieu at an early age, and thereafter grew up among neighbors quite unlike those you describe.
Given your claims about having been shot at multiple times, I'm not sure your escape was all that fortunate.
Hm. Well. The Framers were incredibly well-versed in Christian ethics, as was any educated person at the time. Christian ethics pretty much underpins the entirety of Western Civilization — for better or for worse.
But to the point, if one thinks that people aren’t capable of evil, then the law is a genuinely odd place to spend your time. The bulk of our laws, rules, and regulations exists solely to restrain mankind from harming his neighbor.
I had a very interesting conversation with a person about wartime bombings, and he wanted to say that since the US was the “good guys”, that basically the ends justify the means. I reminded him that we are still the only nation to ever have detonated not one, but two, atomic bombs against a civilian population.
He wanted to argue that this was OK because we were the good guys, and furthermore, it in fact saved a lot of lives (that is, our own.) My counter-argument to him was that no, incinerating 500,000 civilians is NOT the behavior of “good guys”, it’s the behavior of people who don’t want to be messed with, and we are just bad enough and mean enough to do it. So watch your step.
The point here is that neither the Japanese nor the US were demonstrating that mankind is inherently good. Just the opposite. We are a warlike people and we will do what it takes to win. We are OK with having blood on our hands, and we need to know that about ourselves.
Sorry for the long response, but, hey, it’s VC.
And yet Christians come together in churches to enable their own vision for a common good. I don't think your example explains anything.
My personal good is often in alignment with the collective good. Not always in the immediate sense, but over time I maximize my wellbeing through voluntary participation in the collective. *When that ceases to be the case I engage in foot-voting.
*Obligatory Somin reference.
32. Manipulative Nudging Also Supported by Liberalism.
Seriously, “pluralism”? Pluralism can be a consequence of liberalism while not being essential to it. Take, for example, liberalism itself, as Sunstein understands it. Does he seriously think that a society with a plurality of views about the goodness of liberalism is better than a society with a plurality of views within the confines of liberalism under the assumption that liberalism is good? He clearly accepts the latter. But then “pluralism” qua pluralism is not essential to a liberal society.
Nudges always turn into shoves when just nudging doesn't work. That's close to an absolute rule, because there's an arbitrary dividing line between nudges and shoves, and you don't even bother with the nudge if you don't care about which choice people make.
Nudges always turn into shoves when just nudging doesn’t work
That's unsupported. Plenty of failed nudges around. Portion sizes spring to mind. And yet no food intake regulations.
The government has a continuum of intensity of desire just like the public - some things policymakers want, they're willing to do a nudge but not a law.
Now, I might buy questioning the idea of government manipulating it's citizens at all.
I'm okay with nudges as a moral theory (Energy Star ratings convinced me even despite recent literature about questioning the initial science).
But I do think there is a consistent argument that reaching for manipulation first is not a proper method by which to govern.
Oh please. Nudges (polite requests) do turn into shoves (mandates) with government all too frequently.
Forget it, Jake, it's Sarcastr0. He'll deny that water is wet and sky is blue.
"Portion sizes spring to mind. And yet no food intake regulations."
Banning super size drinks, no?
Which is not a food intake regulation.
It is, in fact, an example of a failed nudge that did not grow, in contradiction of Brett's claim.
Que ?
The Bloomberg ban on the sale of large (>16 oz) sweetened drinks was not a nudge, it was an actual ban, nixed by a judge the day before it took effect.
(a) it wasn't a nudge it was a ban, and
(b) it didn't "fail", it was torpedoed by a judge
And yes it was a food intake regulation. It attempted to regulate calorific intake, indirectly, by making it harder / more inconvenient / more expensive to get your hands on a large portion. Using government regulatory power. And enforcement.
It's analagous to putting in speed bumps rather than mandating a speed limit. You don't make it illegal to go over x mph, you put in obstacles to make it harder to go over x mph.
Or, to put it in terms a 'liberal" would understand. To claim it was a nudge, not a regulation, you would also have to claim that a law making it illegal to operate an abortion clinic was merely a "nudge" to dissuade pregnant women from getting an abortion.
a “nudge” is an intervention that gently steers individuals towards a desired action.
The shove would be a law against individuals drinking X amount of soda a day.
This is a nudge.
Good to know. A "nudge" includes actual legal bans on suppliers, with fines, so long as the consumer is not subject to criminal sanction.
Strangely, with this revelation, my enthusiasm for nudgery has not increased.
Good to know, indeed!
I'm not advocating for nudging either, at least not the whole range of nudges, if you care to read my OP.
Certainly not with the new paper out on it.
If you got 20 mins, here's a good podcast of UK liberals being quite skeptical of nudge in practice. You'll like it I think:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rg1hb
Nudges always turn into shoves when just nudging doesn’t work.
Nudging is a tactic to be used when shoving lacks the requisite popular support.
We know this because no nudge proponent has ever proposed downgrading a pre-existing shove to a nudge. It's always a matter of upgrading a nothing (ie laissez faire) into a nudge.
We can pay attention to the theoretical benefits of nudging as and when we see it going both ways. While it is only proposed to achieve more direction by the busybodies, we know the kind of animal it is.
It should also be noted that some alleged "nudges" already contain a goodly helping of shove. For example anything that converts an opt in to an opt out requires you to DO something to escape the nudge. That's a paperwork shove. And when there are 17 things you have to remember to opt out of, that's a lot of shove.
Liberals ban perfectly good toilets and light bulbs. In California they are banning gasoline cars soon.
No shoves though.
Ultimately it’s all backed by guns and prison if you don’t comply, even with rules that supposedly just create a nudge.
The whole point of nudges is they are not backed by guns and prison.
Soft power is a thing. People follow authorities just fine without threats. Or with carrots not sticks.
Stop acting like a 20-year-old who just read Marx for the first time.
Hold on, not half a dozen comments above you said banning the sale of large sodas, under penalty of fines, is just a nudge.
How do you enforce this kind of nudge, then ?
It’s just a fine. Or a tax. Then, if you don’t pay the fine or tax, you go to jail. If you refuse going to jail, well . . . that’s where the guns part comes in.
My favorite nudge: https://www.energystar.gov/
No regulations, no jail. Just soft power. And it's effective.
Not by jailing the soda drinkers, Lee.
No indeed.
So closing down abortion clinics by law is a "nudge." So long as the woman faces no sanction.
Changing the size of your soda is not a full ban on all soda.
Once again: "a “nudge” is an intervention that gently steers individuals towards a desired action."
Those are not my words, they come from the 2021 paper on it.
You know what gently means. You're being obtuse on purpose at this point.
"Cackling villains—including many illiberals—like laughter too!"
It's nice to hear someone who enjoys his work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1PwVmv_05w&t=1s
Reading through the origins of the terms, Leftism means egalitarian; liberalism means individualism, which rapidly becomes egalitarianism in a group as it did in history; conservatives conserve the best of human endeavor, which means looking at things larger than the individual (culture, tribe, gods, history, future, myth, legend).
I agree with Sunstein's published position that lies about public officials and institutions undermine faith in government. For example, the lie proliferated by the failed Hillary Clinton Campaign regarding former President Trump's collusion with Russia definitely undermined the President and continues to do so. How does the Campaign -- and its supporters, perhaps even Sunstein himself -- atone for (or at least acknowledge) the lies of the sort the Sunstein abhors? I hear the lofty words "freedom" and "unification" yet find so evidence that Sunstein and Somin accept any responsibility for their own acts of misinformation, suppression, and disunity.
One step further, how does Sunstein propose to prevent liars, self-anointed as tellers of the "real truth," from being obstacles to the unifying principals that Sunstein so admires? What prevents the Sunstein/Somin Cabal from being nothing more than Stalin reincarnated as a Worshipful Panel of Masters?
You OK, dude? This is like, philosophy. Dunno how you got there to some kind of gestalt Stalin situation.
I think we're allowed to identify snake oil salesmen posing as philosophers though.
For myself, I am willing cut Sunstein some slack. I don't think he's an 80% proof snake oil salesman. I suspect he really is as confused as he sounds.
If you're going to buck the philosophical principle, you should bring more than 'nothing more than Stalin reincarnated as a Worshipful Panel of Masters.'
There is nothing inherently aristocratic I saw in the OP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger
There were plenty of "philosophers" in Russia who paved the way for Stalin.
Don't load it all on poor old Stalin. Molotov rated him milder than Lenin.
Stalinism is Leninism. It's just called Stalinism because Fanny Kaplan (eventually) manged to kill off the Greater Tyrant.
Who would’ve thought that Cass Sunstein and Nikki Haley would be Reason’s 2023 libertarian icons?
We live in a republic, not a democracy.
We live in a republic, not a democracy.
That was a real mic-drop retort in the 7th grade. Since then, not so much. There are different forms and implementation of "democracy", with pure direct democracy being just one of them (and it being one that is absolutely impractical at any kind of real scale). We live in a federal democratic republic, with the "democratic" part being implemented in multiple ways and to different degrees.
Correct, we are a hybrid of both. If we decided to go purely one way or the other this experiment would end
Depends on how you like your tyranny: from the majority or the minority
It all seems extremely mushy to me, as i would expect from a fellah like Sunstein.
"freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, the rule of law and democracy"
What is included in "human rights" that is to already included in "freedom" ? And whatever it is, why would a "liberal" find it compelling ? Ditto "pluralism" ?
What's "security" ? If it just means efficient enforcement of freedom fine. But I suspect it means subsidised housing and welfare checks. Why would a "liberal" think that a principle of equal standing to freedom ?
Mush on toast.
What is included in “human rights” that is to already included in “freedom”
s/b
What is included in “human rights” that is not already included in “freedom”
Libertarianism tends to distinguish rather strictly between positive and negative freedom. That's because negative freedom doesn't conflict with itself, but positive freedom does conflict.
The negative right to food is just a right to pursue it without people stopping you. I can refrain from stopping an unlimited number of people from eating, all at the same time! It's easy, I just do nothing!
The positive right to food, OTOH, is a right to actually get it, which puts demands on others. Somebody else has to provide it, and if they don't want to? Too bad.
So adding positive rights diminishes overall freedom.
The left is very fond of positive rights, which allows them to loudly proclaim their support of freedom, while actually oppressing people. Bake that cake!
Yes, "positive freedom" is "trans freedom" - ie "not freedom" posing as its opposite.
So trans people shouldn’t have freedom?
Brett: ‘Bake that cake!’
It was a court case. You voted for a notoriously bullying litigant.
‘Somebody else has to provide it, and if they don’t want to? Too bad.’
What does that even mean?
from Nige's comment:
I do not understand Nige's retort. Can Nige (or anyone) please explain it to me. Thanks.
Trump uses the courts. Gays and transgenders use the courts. Therefore, if you vote for Trump, you can't complain about how gays and transgenders use the courts.
Clear now?
Trump used the courts. Some other people used the courts. You can complain all you want. There, there.
Wow. That's one dumb argument...
You see, it was a case that went to court. Now you get it?
FDR was a big positive freedom guy, and yet trans stuff never came up.
Civil rights are human rights, and trans people are humans, but if you reject positive freedom because trans that's on you.
Yes, he was a big positive freedom guy. " the freedom of speech, the freedom of worship, the freedom from want, and the freedom from fear"; But not, notably, the freedom from being stuffed into a concentration camp.
The left doesn't care about trans any more than O'Brien cared about 5 fingers in 1984. It's just a tool. The trans will find that out when the left picks another tool out of the box, just like the feminists did when they weren't needed anymore, and forcing them to pretend guys were women became more useful.
Japanese internment was horrible; it does not invalidate positive liberty as a concept.
'The left doesn’t care about trans' your telepathy still sucks.
No, it invalidates FDR giving a damn about liberty as a concept.
So if I yell about you and transgenders and never need to listen to you about liberty again as well?
No.
People are people. No one is purely principled.
Pretending they must be so you can discard something they say is cowardly.
'and forcing them to pretend'
Trans people are real, they're a minority, you decided you could pick on them, you're mad because people now know you're bullies and fascists.
Sure (some) trans people are real in that they genuinely believe they've been born in the wrong body. There's a mismatch between what they think they are (or feel they ought to be) and what they actually are. This is indeed a pitiable psychological condition.
However they are not actually the sex they think they ought to be, even if you think they should be treated as such.
So it is hardly surprising if actual women who have been fighting for decades to establish that women are not some kind of second class men, but a valid and equal category of humanity, distinct from men, are unamused by it being insisted that everyone must accept that anyone who thinks he is, or would prefer to be, a woman, is in fact one.
I don't really care if you have a problem with the fact that internally feeling like a woman strongly enough to claim to be a woman should mean you get treated as if you're a woman, but it really is fucking hilarious that you think social norms changing to reflect this impinges on your liberty in any remotely meaningful way, while there's a right-wing campaign to demonise them, to ban books that feature them, and passing laws denying them access to health care.
The silly thing here is a guy thinking he KNOWS what a woman feels like internally, or visa versa.
Good grief, Sarcastro, I knew Nige was a dope, but I didn’t realise you were too. Though you’re probably just pretending.
The reference to trans is an analogy.
You stick “positive” on the front of “freedom” to convert it to its opposite. ie “positive freedom” is the exercise of government force or coercion to take away some of Peter’s freedom to give Paul a bonus. It’s “not freedom” posing as “freedom.”
“Trans” performs the same linguistic function. You stick “trans” in front of “woman” to convert a “not a woman” aka a man, into a “woman.” (And so mutatis mutandis for “trans men.”)
I'm going to ignore your trans ipse dixit shittiness.
A rich man's freedom is a pinched view of liberty.
If you want to actually optimize *operational choice* i.e. the choices people might actually make, mere freedom from regulation doesn't do it. In fact, most folks don't see or care much about regulations; that's a rich man's problem.
Not saying it's not a problem - plenty of licensing regimes are bad for people and consumers. But thinking that the only liberty that matters is the liberty to use your fat sacks of cash money without government intervention is a failure of imagination.
In fact, most folks don’t see or care much about regulations; that’s a rich man’s problem.
Obviously - if you don't see a regulation, you don't care about it. You are unaware that it is the government that is responsible for the fact that you have to run the dishwasher for 2 and a half hours, rather than 45 minutes, and that things come out not properly rinsed. You whine about how the damn manufacturers don't know their business.
If you want to actually optimize *operational choice* i.e. the choices people might actually make, mere freedom from regulation doesn’t do it.
Who put you in charge of optimizing my "operational choices" ?
But thinking that the only liberty that matters is the liberty to use your fat sacks of cash money without government intervention is a failure of imagination.
Nobody thinks that. It's just that we've learned to sup with a long spoon with those who say that actually government intervention is liberty.
You are unaware that it is the government that is responsible for the fact that you have to run the dishwasher for 2 and a half hours, rather than 45 minutes and that things come out not properly rinsed
Rich man's problem.
Who put you in charge of optimizing my “operational choices” ?
1) Telling switch from principle to implementation.
2) As to the implementation, it's not like markets are incredible at maximizing choices either...except for those with sufficient money to have choices. Turns out putting no one in charge means big business is in charge.
we’ve learned to sup with a long spoon with those who say that actually government intervention is liberty.
Yeah keep your government offa my medicade.
Too many on the right think they know the world, but at best ignore everyone poorer than you and blame an inchoate 'the government' for all issues.
Rich man’s problem.
Roughly 70% of US households have dishwashers. And rich men like me can mitigate the irritation of having most of our crockery and cutlery in the dishwasher for half the day, by the simple expedients of - large house, large kitchen, excessive quantities of crockery etc, two dishwashers . Actually the Moore family has three. So the regulatory crap lands harder on the poor. As you'd expect.
Telling switch from principle to implementation.
No. Who put you in charge of optimizing "my operational choices" in principle ?
Too many on the right think they know the world, but at best ignore everyone poorer than you and blame an inchoate ‘the government’ for all issues.
I understand that you're a big government kinda guy, who puts low value on liberty. Which is fine, except when you try to lecture us on what liberty is.
Having a dishwasher, and being so pampered it counts as a *problem* that it could be faster, are two different things.
I'm not in charge of anything about that; we're talking about the concept of positive liberty. The argument 'it's not a thing because I don't trust anyone' is not an argument about the concept, it's an argument about implementation.
As to implementation, mere distrust is proves way too much. Every inherent good, including economic liberty, has an implementation problem.
I put a low value on *your* degenerate definition of liberty. That's not the same as me being not a fan of liberty.
You're discomfited by that perspective. Well, you should be.
No, “positive freedom” IS a thing. It’s just that it’s not a kind of freedom.
It’s a kind of authoritarianism - ie the government takes away a chunk of Peter’s freedom to supply Paul with a benefit. The fact that Peter’s freedom is being infringed is not an accident of implementation, it is at the core of the whole idea of “positive” freedom.
No “positive freedom” can be delivered by the government to Paul without taking away from Peter.
I put a low value on your degenerate definition of liberty because your definition is deliberately weasely. It includes taking away freedom within the definition of freedom. And it does so simply because leftist authoritarians, as good political propagandists, want to appropriate the political benefit of being thought to favor freedom, while actually favouring its suppression.
Which is why, in reference to one of your earlier comments the “left and right sides of liberalism” is a nonsense. The right side favors freedom (of the “pinched” variety) and the left favors government programs (of the “we’re pinching your liberty for the common good” variety.)
These things aren’t merely different, they’re opposites.
'“Trans” performs the same linguistic function'
My God they've discovered noun modifiers!
Noun modifiers do not usually negate the noun, and when they do, they’re usually in a familiar class like non, anti etc.
I merely point out that “trans” has now joined the small class of negating noun modifiers, which signify that the object is outside the class denoted by the noun, rather than within it.
Like "positive" when it is used to modify "freedom."
You're just using a belabored way to beg the question.
Twice.
You claim they negate the noun, but that's your own idiosyncratic interpretation.
Sure, me and 95% of English speakers (and 100% for the few hundred years up to 2000 or so) have an idiosyncratic usage.
It is very mushy. If you had 1 or 2 clear principles, they might tie you up like a straightjacket. 34 vague and conflicting principles? You've got license to do whatever the hell you want, you'll always be able to rationalize you're following one of them.
Its just a collection of meaningless bromides. Its not a serious article, liberals in practice believe few of the things he points out.
No, you cannot have a funeral or use an open air basketball court because of covid. John McCain can have a public funeral though and its ok to riot about George Floyd, neither of those will spread it.
Liberals believe in the right to private property. But nothing in liberalism forbids a progressive income tax or is inconsistent with large-scale redistribution from rich to poor. Liberals can and do disagree about the progressive income tax and on whether and when redistribution is a good idea. Many liberals admire Lyndon Johnson's Great Society; many liberals do not.
"Nothing in liberalism" ? This is the "liberal" version of trans. Some women have testicles, some do not.
Some "liberals" are committed to freedom, some are committed to authoritarian confiscations.
Would it not be a better idea to use different words for these very different animals ?
I'm right with you on this one. Oof, so many contradictions in so few words. At best, this reads, "Liberals believe in private property unless the state wants it, in which case, they don't."
Right. We're back to what Longtobefree said above.
Taxation is theft people are not liberal, as it turns out.
No, liberals are the main thieves.
Bob, you hate principles, so hush while adults talk.
"[But nothing in liberalism forbids] a progressive income tax or is inconsistent with large-scale redistribution from rich to poor."
A progressive income tax is not "a large-scale redistribution of rich to poor."
Well, it isn't if the taxes are given back to the rich, anyway. In which case, why did you bother taking them in the first place?
It's "large-scale redistribution of rich to poor" adjacent, at least.
Progressive taxes aren't redistribution of rich to poor?
- Top 10% of income earners paid 73% of taxes in 2022.
- Bottom 50% of earners paid just 3%.
Massive accumulation of wealth will do that.
The taxes themselves aren't redistribution. It depends on how they are spent. Redistribution requires focus both on where the money is coming from and where it is going, not just one side of the equation.
But the fact is, you wouldn't even bother with the progressive taxation if you didn't intend redistribution: You'd just let the wealthy keep their money and spend it themselves, instead of taking it away from them and then spending it on them anyway.
So, sure, in theory progressive taxation doesn't have to be redistributionary. In practice it always is, without exception.
Well, kinda. "The wealthy" are not a single class. So you can tax the bejesus out of the wealthy as a whole and then redistribute the loot to those wealthy who are - yourself and your allies.
Sure. But you can do that with flat rate taxes, too.
The chief purpose of progressive taxation is to sever the relationship between tax rates and government spending for most of the voting population, so that the voting majority will tolerate a higher level of spending than they would if they had to pay for it themselves.
That higher level of spending provides more opportunities for graft and vote buying. Hard to buy somebody's vote with their own money...
The chief purpose of progressive taxation is to sever the relationship between tax rates and government spending for most of the voting population,
The usual load of ideological horseshit coming from Brett. No evidence, no logic, just libertarian cant.
Mostly they are redistributed to the government itself of course and its contractors, some donors certainly benefit too.
Wouldn't it be great if we could add a panel to the National Debt Clock in NYC that showed how much of that money was spent on overhead?
The taxes themselves aren’t redistribution. It depends on how they are spent. Redistribution requires focus both on where the money is coming from and where it is going, not just one side of the equation.
That’s true. For 2022 about 52% of federal spending was on entitlement programs, so federal taxes (and other sources of revenue) are only a little less than half about redistribution (accounting for SS taxes paid by SS recipients, etc.)
Oh, look, lefty shits trying to intentionally redefine terms to make themselves into the heroes. Lefty shits are not liberal. They're laughably dishonest.
Somin is not a lefty.
Sure. And neither is Sunstein, Obama, Hillary Clinton, or Karl Marx. They're all liberals, right?
Re. Sunstein’s point #30, “Liberals like laughter. They are anti-anti-laughter,” Somin’s right to point out the cackling-over-my-evil-plan type of laughter. But an even stronger objection is to the kind of scornful laughter associated with “Can you believe what fools those other people are?” I’m thinking of just about every reference to Republicans by Jon Stewart, and of Rush Limbaugh describing 12-year-old Chelsea Clinton as the White House dog.
So let me add a small amendment to Sunstein. Admirable people like laughter, even when it’s directed at themselves. Small-minded people are delighted to laugh at others, but get all wrathy if it’s suggested that they themselves might’ve done something foolish or absurd.
What I'm finding is that in general, progressives hate fun. They're moralizers, always lecturing and hectoring people. Those types don't like laughter, probably because they secretly suspect it is being directed at them.
Everyone thinks their political opposition is against fun. It is a standard dehumanizing instinct, and should not be taken as truth.
I also wouldn't get into a contest complaining about which side are moralizers...
True, I've never felt a desire to "clap back" in somebody's face to scold them like a preschooler. That does look like fun!
You're scolding now!
Scolding people for scolding.
Meta-scolding.
Jeez, talk about mental masturbation
I appreciate Sunstein's effort. But I think he strongly telegraphs he's pandering to the left trying to get them on board, and definitely not doing the same thing to the right. Examples:
"At the same time, liberals know that unregulated markets can fail, such as when workers or consumers lack information or when consumption of energy produces environmental harm."
First, market failure is not only not inherently bad thing, it's absolutely necessary. Not letting things fail is one of the biggest mistakes governments make. Second, focusing only on workers/consumers is a purely leftist position showing his true concerns or target audience. Yes, more information makes markets work better, but the supply side suffers from that too. Third, the last bit is a really weirdly specific inclusion.
Next - "Many liberals are enthusiastic about the contemporary administrative state; many liberals reject it. Within liberalism, there are vigorous debates on that question. Some liberals like laws that require people to get vaccinated or to buckle their seatbelts; some liberals do not. Liberals have different views about climate change, immigration, the minimum wage and free trade."
I agree mostly with the beginning - the question of the administrative state is one of the form of governance, not necessarily what government actually does. I would say that the more powerful the administrative state, the weaker the rule of law is and the more likely the state is to encroach on individual liberties of all sorts (because of the lack of accountability), but that's debatable. But then the rest of this point goes off on a complete tangent. None of those laws discussed require an administrative state - they could all be passed by elected representative bodies. Also, Somin is right that most of this list also is inconsistent with the liberal commitment to personal agency and autonomy. This might be the biggest spot of inconsistency. You can't say they value free markets and then say it's reasonable for them to be either against or free trade or minimum wage laws.
But the OP is Somin...
You also have the wrong definition of market failure. Business failure is not market failure.
And you take a paragraph about a lot more than the administrative state and criticize it for not all applying to the administrative state.
Finally, value does not mean only value. Most of these elements have times that they are in tension. One could argue that ignoring how those choices are made makes this a less useful exercise, but it is not inconsistent.
Don't know if you'll see this but that is your best post.
tkamenick
although the last sentence seemed unformed
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
But the lamb gets their voice heard, that's the important thing!
Give me mint jelly, or give me death!
Government is just that: government. Freedom is where government has no say or involvement. I am free to decide what to wear today. I am not free to go 80 in a 25, even though I democratically voted for the people who make those sorts of decisions.
Freedom doesn't extend to wearing nothing....
Yes, it does.
It's just that freedom is not the only thing we pay attention to as a society.
That's a pretty odd thing to say.
Since you made no claim to time and place, I presume you "wear nothing" quite often in your home. You might also wear nothing at a nudist colony or some other private venue. There are some rare public venues where wearing nothing is perfectly accepted as well. Then there are infants and small children who don't always observe privacy customs. Nudity taboos are cultural and not uniform across the US.
This makes zero sense. By definition, if it's a collective decision, each individual's autonomy is not going to be respected.
At best you can say that each individual has an equal weight in the collective decision. But that has squat to do with autonomy.
The question then arises as to whether giving each individual equal weight tends to deliver conclusions that deliver the best decision. Many people have argued recently that it is foolish to allow the common man or his elected representatives to question the aurhority of the experts.
Offering equal weight as the reason why democracy is an inherent good is circular - democracy is inherently good because it's democratic.
The same could be said - at least as convincingly - for bacon.
A decision making methodology cannot, by definition, be an inherent good. Take any other inherent good we can agree on (human rights? personal liberty? whatever) and both it and its opposite can be achieved through a democratic process. How then, can a process which is capable of achieving opposing moral outcomes have in itself any sort of moral valence?
At best you can say that each individual has an equal weight in the collective decision. But that has squat to do with autonomy.
It has lots to do with *respect* for autonomy.
Lots of people arguing about how to get to the best decisions without stopping to consider what best means.
It has lots to do with *respect* for autonomy.
I don’t even know what this is supposed to mean.
OK guys (and gals) we’re gonna take a vote on whether, given their wicked provocations, we’re gonna go to war with Eastasia.
OK, it was 57-43 in favor of war. Get in that damn uniform and grab that rifle now. You may not like it, but that was the vote.
I want you to know though, that although you’ll be following my orders now, and I’l shoot you if you don’t, I deeply respect your autonomy. I'm confiscating your autonomy for the duration, but my respect for your autonomy is undimmed.
Giving people a voice in their government is respecting their autonomy. It may not always effectuate their autonomy, but nothing will always do that.
Seems like a pretty worthless thing, having your autonomy respected.
Respect is not actually worthless. It has the same value as freedom.
Once again, you are being selective in when you require a benefit and when you take something as inherently good.
That's fine - we all do that. But you keep using that as an argument as though your personal take is universal. It is not.
Direct democracy is a decision making methodology.
Democracy itself is merely government of, by, and for the people.
The rest of your argument doesn't follow; these inherent goods are independent of one another; some of them are in tension. Democracy not being in tension with any of them doesn't make it no longer an inherent good.
Respect has the same value as freedom ?
I confess that that is way the most bizarre thing you’ve written in this thread- among several top notch contenders.
I wouldn’t trade a teaspoonful if my freedom for a truckload of “respect” - whatever this respect thing is supposed to be.
Which so far as I can see is holding a public consultation, in which I am graciously allowed to contribute, before my house is bulldozed as part of the freeway extension.