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Michael Stern Responds to Kurt Lash on The Legislative History of Section Three
As has been noted here already, earlier this month a Colorado District Court concluded that although Donald Trump engaged in the January 6 insurrection, he was not officer of the United States and so he was not covered by Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment. The judge particularly cited a draft article by Kurt Lash about the legislative history of Section Three which argues that the presidency was either deliberately not covered, or at best that Section Three is ambiguous on this score.
Michael Stern has posted a lengthy analysis of this issue and of the legislative history that is definitely worth reading. Here is one paragraph beginning an analysis of the legislative history and especially of a statute drafted by Representative Samuel McKee:
The weight the court places on the fact that an early draft of section 3 explicitly lists the presidency and vice presidency also appears to be misplaced. A reader of the court's opinion would get the impression that a proposed amendment was introduced with those offices expressly included and then that proposal was modified to remove them. The actual drafting history of section 3 was more complex. . . .
Here is Stern on the McKee "proviso":
The initial proposal referred to by Judge Wallace was introduced by Representative Samuel McKee, a Radical Republican from Kentucky; it provided in relevant part:
No person shall be qualified or shall hold the office of President or vice president of the United States, Senator or Representative in the national congress, or any office now held under appointment from the President of the United States, and requiring the confirmation of the Senate, who has been or shall hereafter be engaged in any armed conspiracy or rebellion against the government of the United States. . . .
Kurt Lash, The Meaning and Ambiguity of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment 10 (Oct. 28, 2023) (unpublished draft on SSRN). This proposal identified three categories of banned places: (1) president or vice president; (2) member of Congress; and (3) presidential appointee to an office requiring the advice and consent of the Senate.
As described by Professor Lash, McKee's speeches in favor of this constitutional amendment focused on the moral and symbolic principle it embodied, namely that "red handed traitors" and "unfaithful . . . men who made war upon us" should not be eligible to hold the type of prominent positions he identified. Id. at 11. To allow them such honors, McKee suggested, would be to mock the patriots who had fought and died to preserve the Union. Id. at 11-12.
Following McKee's proposal, several other proposals were considered. For example, one proposal would have deprived former confederates of the right to vote for a limited period; another would have denied eligibility to serve in the "national legislature" for a longer period; yet others permanently barred eligibility for "any office under the Government of the United States." These proposals also varied in the class of persons to whom they applied—from everyone who "voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection" to certain high-ranking confederate officials to certain former federal officeholders who "gave aid or comfort to the late rebellion" to those who had mistreated union prisoners of war. None of these proposals, however, garnered the needed support. Id. at 12-18.
At this point McKee introduced another proposal, which read as follows:
All persons who voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection, giving aid and comfort to the so-called southern confederacy, are forever excluded from holding any office of trust or profit under the Government of the United States.
Id. at 18-19.
Lash describes this as a "milder proposal" than McKee's original effort, but he cites no evidence that it was understood to be milder or that McKee intended it as such. See id. at 19. It was shorter than McKee's original proposal, but, at least to the extent relevant here, it is more expansive, not less. McKee's original proposal only covered presidential appointees who needed Senate confirmation, but his new proposal applied to "any office of trust or profit under the Government of the United States," thereby expanding disqualification to inferior officers who were not Senate confirmed. Nor, it might be added, did McKee's expressed intent in offering the new amendment exactly reek of mildness. See id. (quoting McKee's explanation that "[b]y this means we will affix the brand of treason upon the traitor's brow; and there I would have it remain until the snows of winter covered their graves").
Lash argues it is "milder" because it does not expressly mention the presidency and vice presidency, in contrast to McKee's original proposal. Id. But this is a circular argument founded on the assumption that "office of trust or profit under the Government of the United States" did not include the presidency (and vice presidency) or, more precisely, that McKee did not understand it to do so. This assumption is almost certainly wrong.
First, it would make no sense for McKee to have expanded his original proposal to include lower level federal appointees but to have excluded federal elected positions, which were the focus of his original proposal. . . . Second, it seems clear that McKee himself believed that his amendment would cover elected positions. . . . Finally, to hypothesize that McKee intended to remove the president (and vice president) from the list of banned places requires that there have been some reason for him to do so. But there appears to be no evidence that anyone objected to McKee's original proposal on the grounds that the presidency and vice presidency were included. . . .
Stern later also has this discussion of the famous Johnson-Morrill exchange about the presidency:
As we have discussed before, during the Senate debate on the final language of section 3, Democratic Senator Reverdy Johnson raised a concern that section 3 did not expressly cover the president and vice president:
Mr. Johnson. But this amendment does not go far enough. I suppose the framers of the amendment thought it was necessary to provide for such an exigency. I do not see but that any one of these gentlemen may be elected President or Vice President of the United States, and why did you omit to exclude them? I do not understand them to be excluded from the privilege of holding the two highest offices in the gift of the nation. No man is to be a Senator or Representative or an elector for President or Vice President–
39 Cong. Globe 2899 (1866) (emphasis added).
This is then followed immediately with a colloquy between Senator Johnson and Republican Senator Lot Morrill:
Mr. Morrill. Let me call the Senator's attention to the words "or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States."
Mr. Johnson. Perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion from the Presidency; no doubt I am; but I was misled by noticing the specific exclusion in the case of Senators and Representatives.
39 Cong. Globe 2899 (1866) (emphasis added).
There are two things to note about Johnson's response. First, he is not raising any doubt about whether the president and vice president hold "any office, civil or military, under the United States;" when his attention is called to this language, he immediately agrees with Morrill's point. Instead, Johnson is wondering why senators and representatives are enumerated when the president and vice president are not. As already discussed, this question is understandable because the reason that members of Congress needed to be specifically enumerated was technical and obscure enough that even a constitutional lawyer (as Johnson apparently was) might not immediately see it on a casual reading of the language.
The second thing to note is that Johnson does not suggest that there would have been any reason to exclude the president and vice president. On the contrary, he is assuming that he has found a mistake in the language (which, as an opponent of the amendment, he had an incentive to highlight).
This colloquy seems to me, at the very least, to put to bed the notion that the framers of section 3 intentionally omitted the presidency and vice presidency from the list of banned places. Lash, however, does not see it that way. He argues that "even if other members of Congress shared Morrill's understanding (and there is no evidence that they did), there was no reason to think the public shared Morrill's understanding" because "Morrill's exchange with Johnson was not reported in the press." Lash, The Meaning and Ambiguity of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment at 29. Further, if a respected constitutional lawyer like Morrill was confused, it follows that members of the public might be as well.
Somewhere Justice Scalia is spinning furiously in his grave. He famously opposed the use of legislative history to resolve textual ambiguity, but this goes far beyond that. It is using the fact that a senator was confused upon casual reading of a legislative text as evidence of its ambiguity, even though he quickly agreed that the text was not ambiguous. And it is suggesting that because some members of the public might also have been confused by the text (which pretty much applies to every legislative text) that itself establishes ambiguity.
That cannot be right.
And from the conclusion:
At the end of the day this is an attempt to create ambiguity out of thin air. The language of section 3's banned places is clear and applying that language to encompass the presidency and vice presidency creates no absurdity or normatively implausible results. To the contrary, this application is entirely consistent with the legislative purpose and, to the extent it can be determined, with specific legislative intent and understanding. As much as courts may want an "off-ramp" to avoid the necessity of disqualifying Trump from the presidency, this is not it.
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What a horribly flawed process we have in lawmaking. Countless efforts spend to make the laws say what we mean, then centuries of squabbling about other interpretations.
It would be a fun research project to see if AIs could do a better job of drafting legislation. As a minimum, they should be better than humans at examining the many ways the words on paper could be (mis)interpreted. They could also exhaustively search existing legislation and court decisions for overlaps or conflicts with the proposed legislation.
I still get hung up with this Humpty Dumpty definition of the term "insurrection." It seems that the word means precisely what Trump's opponents want it to mean.
And, crucially, nothing else.
Baude et al. did a whole paper that discusses the definition, how it's different from rebellion, and the history of the term, among other things.
Despite what Brett says, the scope is not narrowly tailored for Trump. It just doesn't include everything Brett wishes it would so it's gotta be in bad faith.
No, I agree, the actual definition of insurrection isn't narrowly tailored. (Nor is it a good fit to anything Trump can be proven to have done.) The narrowly tailored 'definition' comes in when we point out that CHAZ, for instance, was classic insurrection, and somebody snottily asks how CHAZ was trying to obstruct counting electoral votes.
“Proven” being the key word there. In the absence of a continuing state of civil unrest, such questions need to be decided in a criminal court proceeding. Charge the crime, then prove it.
Now if Congress has passed some section 3 implementation legislation, maybe we’d have some other procedure for deciding whether someone had engaged in insurrection. But I have a hard time believing any such statute would differ from the existing criminal standard.
Yes, proven is indeed the key word here. As I keep saying, convict Trump in a felony trial of insurrection, and you could certainly disqualify him. The problem stems from people wanting to disqualify him without extending him the presumption of innocence or the chance to be acquitted.
Because, I think, they retain some lingering understanding of just how weak the case for him being guilty of insurrection really is.
You keep requiring a criminal level of proof, which isn't in the Constitution.
You argument is because this is 'really important.' Which is just vibes, not legal anything.
You continue to be the best example of how textualists/originalists don't mean what they say when they yell about living constitutionalists being legal realists.
You're as outcome oriented as anyone on here, you're just more of a jerk to anyone disagreeing with you.
Because, I think, they retain some lingering understanding
Fucking telepathy again. Why do you persist in this fan fiction nonsense? It's not useful to discussion, and it leads you to some pretty risible takes.
I don't think you're going to see any actual disqualification, and if you do it'll come before SCOTUS. The right does themselves no favor with all their arguments being 'vibes' 'persecution' and 'there will be blood.'
“You keep requiring a criminal level of proof, which isn’t in the Constitution.”
In any case you need some standard for determining if someone has committed an insurrection. Other that a criminal proceeding, what else is there? State by state civil proceedings? Thats not even funny.
The advantage for Dems in a criminal proceeding is that the District of Columbia jury pool the as blue as it gets.
The default is preponderance. It has the highest odds of being correct factually.
DC jury pool bias is not really demonstrated, it's just right-wing grievance as they pretend that voting Dem means you can't be objective.
Where does it say anywhere the default is preponderance?
It certainly doesn't say that in section 3, section 5 leaves it up to Congress, Congress did define a criminal offense of insurrection which requires beyond a reasonable doubt.
That is long-held judicial practice.
If you're trying to make the point that the Constitution doesn't write everything down, I won't disagree. You can't be completely directive, and the Constitution's form is more framework than direction anyhow.
But the Constitution does not sub rosa incorporate contemporary statutes.
Preponderance of what evidence? Decided by what governmental body? Absent implementation legislation (state or federal) there isn't a venue for this.
As I've been saying on here every time this comes up, there are other disqualifying event beyond a criminal conviction, but those are in the case where there is a sustained insurrection/rebellion where civil courts are not/were not functioning--which itself is proof of the state of insurrection.
Since we're talking about a one day riot here, you need a criminal prosecution. I realize all this is because people out to disqualify Trump need to get around Brandenburg v Ohio, because even the preponderance of the evidence doesn't help with that. Maybe with an actual criminal prosecution, one could find evidence that Trump personally organized and ordered the breaching of the Capitol building. All public information to date sounds like the special counsel is not pursuing such evidence--probably because it's unlikely to exist
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Findings with more significant consequences routinely require clear & convincing evidence, and I think that's the right standard here (whether or not constitutionally required.)
I anticipated this response: "It just doesn’t include everything Brett wishes it would so it’s gotta be in bad faith."
The distinction has been explained to you a lot. And how immaterial it is considering the players involved in CHAZ vs. Trump himself.
You don't listen, which is not the same thing as being right.
There you go, desperately trying to narrow "insurrection" to just what you accuse Trump of, and nothing else. Because it's as important to you that Democrats NOT be guilty of it, as that Trump be guilty. You're not willing to let a half dozen Democrats get dragged down with him.
First, I'm not desperate. I don't care if some weirdos from Seattle can't run for office.
Second, we've been through this argument many times and how putting up some barricades and saying 'no cops' is not the same as breaking into our federal capitol saying 'stop the count, hang Mike Pence.'
It's different in federal vs. local, in scope, in intent, in level of violence.
I'm taking issue with your argument *because it is bad* not for some motive you make up for me.
"is not the same as breaking into our federal capitol saying ‘stop the count, hang Mike Pence.’"
AND, "breaking into our federal capitol saying 'stop the count, hang Mike Pence.'", while it certainly can fall within the definition of "insurrection", does not exhaust it. So it doesn't freaking MATTER that the insurrectionists setting up 'autonomous zones' didn't break into the Capitol to interrupt a count.
I keep saying it, and you keep demonstrating it: You want to narrow the definition of "insurrection" to just what you accuse Trump of, and nothing more. And it is NOT that narrow.
Lots of things matter that aren't an insurrection matters.
I’m not narrowing the definition of anything, I just disagree with you. I'm agreeing with Baude's actual scholarship, not your table pounding 'I found bad faith in the Dems again' nonsense.
Your confidence does not mean everyone disagreeing with you has a secret motive. I made an argument about how it's different because I believe that argument. Not because I care at all about the chuckleheads that set up those zones.
You have real trouble with understanding that simple idea.
8 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Findlaw: Rebellion or Insurrection
"Rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers. For example, Merriam-Webster defines these terms as follows:
Rebellion: Opposition to one in authority or dominance; open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government
Insurrection: An act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"
CHAZ and the other 'autonomous zones' were core "insurrection". They literally took over territory, forced out governmental authorities, declared independence, and until put down, violently opposed efforts to recapture the territory. It doesn't GET more "insurrection" than this!
And yet you want to deny that they were "insurrection", because you're trying to make it into something only Trump and his allies can be accused of. Your whole argument for their not being "insurrection" is just that they're not what Trump is accused of! That's not going to work.
If you succeed in making charges of insurrection a viable political tactic, it WILL be used against you, so think really hard about the standard of proof and due process you want when it comes back to bite you.
Miriam Webster doesn't get you there. I thought you claimed to have read the Baude article?
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I like how we both can't figure out if someone has even committed insurrection without a criminal conviction and all you have to do is consult a dictionary to determine that.
But a better question is: get him where? What does he think he's accomplishing if he establishes that CHAZ was an insurrection? I think most people who think Trump is disqualified from the presidency under the 14th amendment would be perfectly okay with disqualifying the CHAZ protesters from the presidency also.
It was terrible drafting: If "even a constitutional lawyer" would find it confusing, they should have written it clearer, hyper-technical considerations be damned.
Constitutions are not sacred texts written only for the legal priesthood, they are written as much for the common man as for the lawyer. They MUST be, for how else is the common man to know when the lawyers are pulling a fast one? A constitution should be clear enough that a layman can call bs on a lawyer! Constitutions are ratified by non-lawyers, they have to be understandable to them.
The context here, of course, is that they had already legislatively applied the disability in question to the Confederates, with the Second Confiscation act. The original "section 3": "SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That every person guilty of either of the offences described in this act shall be forever incapable and disqualified to hold any office under the United States."
The 14t amendment was, essentially, a bit of constitutional CYA, to immunize against constitutional challenge things that the federal government had already done. I suppose given that they'd already acted against the Confederates without the benefit of any constitutional basis, they weren't sweating the details.
But they should have been.
It was terrible drafting: If “even a constitutional lawyer” would find it confusing, they should have written it clearer, hyper-technical considerations be damned.
On the contrary, only a constitutional lawyer could find this confusing. (If they stand to make money off it.) No other person would even have the idea that the President is somehow not an officer of the United States.
On the contrary, that IS a perfectly reasonable parsing of the actual amendment's text, which specifies Senators, Representatives, Presidential and Vice Presidential electors, and "any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State".
If 'any office' REALLY meant every single office, you would have omitted any mention of Senators, Representatives, and Electors. It would be redundant to mention them.
And if you do need to mention specific offices, why specify the Electors, if you're NOT excluding the President and VP?
No, it was terrible drafting.
"And if you do need to mention specific offices, why specify the Electors, if you’re NOT excluding the President and VP?"
Perhaps because presidential electors are not federal officers or agents. They act by authority of the state that in turn receives its authority from the Federal Constitution. Ray v. Blair, 343 U.S. 214, 224-25 (1952). Accord: In re Green, 134 U.S. 377, 379 (1890)
“any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State”.
Now make the case that Electors aren't state officers.
It is not unknown for electors to hold state offices; the list of 2020 electors includes governors, lieutenant governors, state senators, etc. But states have various restrictions on holding multiple offices, so if the elector were always a state officer, then those restrictions would be violated in states with such restrictions that have nevertheless allowed electors who hold state offices. The clearest example is Florida, which has in its constitution
But the 2020 electors for Florida included the lieutenant governor, state senators and state representatives.
Conversely, New Jersey statutes specifically forbid anyone from holding more than one office from a list that includes presidential electors.
So in some states an elector might be a state officer (in the view of that state) and in others not (because they forbid holding multiple offices but allow office holders to be electors). So the drafters of the 14th amendment were correct to list it explicitly rather than counting on "any office ... under any State" to cover electors.
Electors are not officers; they perform one action, voting for President and Vice President (OK, two actions) and they are done. Many states give them no discretion in how they vote. The Supreme Court has stated they are not federal officers.
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S1-C2-4/ALDE_00013801/
Members of Congress are not officers, because they are specifically barred from being officers in Article 1 of the Constitution:
(The Constitution allows the House and Senate to "chuse" their officers, so obviously there is another kind of officer (legislative, I suppose) - the House Speaker, the Senate President pro tempore, etc. - that is not incompatible with membership in Congress.)
The Colorado Court didn't make the decision on whether the President was an officer or not.
The judge said that section 3 only applied to article 6 officers and not Article 2 officers.
Address the real point of contention, don't make up a point of contention you think is easier to tackle.
Brett, we’ve plowed this ground before. I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
Disqualification from office pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification imposed pursuant to a criminal conviction, such as the 1862 Act you link to or the present day 18 U.S.C. §§ 2071(b), 2381 or 2383, are distinct species of disqualification. As the Sesame Street jingle goes, one of these things is not like the others.
Application of the criminal statutes is not limited to persons who have previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is so limited. Congress can remove a § 3 disability; it cannot remove a criminal penalty imposed by an Article III judge following a conviction. A person accused of a federal crime which includes disqualification is entitled to the full panoply of procedural rights afforded any other federal criminal defendant. Conversely, nothing in the text of § 3 requires indictment by a grand jury, venue in the state and district where the offending conduct occurred, a speedy and public trial by jury, appointment of counsel if indigent, compulsory power to summon witnesses, confrontation and cross-examination of one’s accusers, and so forth. (Fifth Amendment Due Process may require some of these procedural safeguards, but that is a more flexible standard in civil and administrative proceedings than in criminal prosecutions.)
Whenever I have pointed these things out to you before, you have run away like a scalded dog. Do you have any authority to dispute what I am saying? (Otto Yourazz and ipse dixit don’t count as legal authorities.)
You say all that, that section 3 doesn't require grand jury, blah blah, but then ignore that it doesn't mean that any election official can just decide ad hoc that someone is guilty of "insurrection" under section 3.
Given its history and our constitutional order, it means having taken part in an rebellion, enough that public records of such exist (like Confederate government service), service in a rebel army (capture/parole of Confederate soldiers), or a criminal conviction for insurrection, like John Brown. Of course, given that time period, I'd suspect most one-off convictions would be disqualified by death first.
But since we probably don't do that anymore, a contemporary criminal conviction for insurrection might live to be disqualified.
The useful novelty of section 3 is that it allowed for disqualification without the need to go through a rigorous criminal proceeding in peace time, using public records created during the war, because the sheer number needing to be disqualified made such prosecutions impossible. Just look at the pace of Jan 6 trials, and none of them are even being charged with insurrection.
According to Baude and Paulsen an election official can make that determination, but their decision will be reviewed by the normal processes (in Trump’s case, eventually by SCOTUS). The Colorado judge held an election official cannot do so, but she can after conducting a civil trial with the preponderance-of-evidence standard.
Right, penalty first, trial second, that's their preference. Don't see why we should humor it.
"The Colorado judge held an election official cannot do so, but she can after conducting a civil trial with the preponderance-of-evidence standard."
Fancy that: A judge decided she could do what she wanted to do. Real dog bites man story, that.
In Trump’s case, it’s nine justices who will eventually decide who can do what.
The Colorado Supreme Court will decide regarding the placement of Trump's name on that state's Republican Primary Ballot. Review by SCOTUS is discretionary.
SCOTUS may or may not decide to grant certiorari. See, Texas v. Pennsylvania, 592 U.S. ___ (2020). https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/121120zr_p860.pdf
Of course, the high court includes three members of George W. Bush's 2000 legal team, plus Clarence Toady, Samuel Alito and Niel Gorsuch, so I am not taking their intellectual honesty for granted.
If Trump is ruled eligible, I can see SCOTUS not granting cert. But if he is ruled ineligible, I will bet the farm on SOCTUS granting cert.
penalty first, trial second, that’s their preference
Literally the opposite of what everyone is telling you, including the comment you just replied to.
"Literally the opposite of what everyone is telling you, including the comment you just replied to."
"According to Baude and Paulsen an election official can make that determination,"
That's the penalty phase, in case you missed it. At this point, without any further action, Trump is off the ballot.
"but their decision will be reviewed by the normal processes"
And that's the trial, which comes after the penalty is imposed. And which might remove the penalty that has already been imposed.
Holy crap, you cut off 'but their decision will be reviewed by the normal processes (in Trump’s case, eventually by SCOTUS).'
Come on, man. You know that's disingenuous. There will be no penalty until SCOTUS rules.
The only question is: Does the penalty kick in before or after that review? The fact that a decision can be appealed doesn't mean that a decision hasn't been MADE.
Does the penalty kick in before or after that review?
If only we had well-defined legal processes to deal with penalties and remedies and even accelerating the pace of legal review as required...
Your concern is such a common one, courts have asked and answered it long ago.
[I get you're on the paranoid side, but do you really think the Supreme Court would sit back and allow Trump kept off the ballot before they ruled?
If necessary, SCOTUS would issue a temporary injunction pending the final outcome.
The current posture of the Colorado lawsuit is that the District Court has dismissed the complaint. Both sides applied for review in the Supreme Court of Colorado, which granted both cross-applications, issued a briefing schedule and set oral argument for December 6. With this expedited schedule, it is likely that the Court will rule quickly once the case is submitted for decision.
The Colorado Secretary of State is required to certify the candidates who will be listed on the 2024 presidential primary ballot on January 5, 2024. SCOTUS has shown that it can move quickly when a Republican presidency hangs in the balance. See, Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000).
If the state Supreme Court affirms the District Court dismissal, there will be less reason for SCOTUS to grant cert. If the state Supreme Court rules in favor of the petitioners, SCOTUS is likely to grant cert and expedite its review. If the matter remains unresolved by the Secretary of State's January 5 deadline, Trump can seek a stay from SCOTUS, whereby he would remain on the ballot pending disposition of the disqualification lawsuit.
I hear they won't let Obama on the ballot a third time. It's an outrage they would penalize him like that without a trial.
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Once again: this is an administrative issue, not a "penalty."
Yes, that's why I called it an ad hoc star chamber. What's the definition of "insurrection"? The only one we have, absent implementation legislation, is the criminal statute, which inevitably requires a criminal indictment/trial. Like I posted above, people want to get around the evidentiary threshold for Trump's culpability with respect to Brandenburg v Ohio, by just having a state secretary of state say he's guilty, prove me wrong appellate court.
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There is no textual or historical support for this argument, and it is not consistent with any other provision of law. "Due process is required, unless guilt is obvious" is just not a thing. Either a criminal conviction is always required or it never is.
Maybe it always is, but the Union had total contempt for the rule of law in dealing with its defeated enemies. That does seem to have the virtue of according with their actual behavior.
The problem with following that precedent today is that we haven't just had a civil war, and there's a distinct absence of defeated enemies to apply it to.
No historical support? I just gave it! And explained why. Most everybody yelling that Trump is disqualified under section 3 says it doesn’t matter that such a disqualification is not consistent with any other provision of law, because section 3 is special and self-executing. That’s entirely Baude’s argument that other constitutional provisions do not limit it. Being captured under arms in the service of a rebel army is infinitely more clear than whether Trump was "responsible" for the Jan 6 riot. No need for a criminal trial to determine the former.
Like Brett is saying, the section 3 is a retcon of what they already attempted via statute, to make it bullet proof. But everybody seemed to understand and desire that service in the Confederate army or government was disqualifying. They were just fumbling around trying to federal court review proof it, learning the lessons of Taney’s Dred Scott decision. From how civil rights laws were eviscerated after the war, they were right to do so.
"Disqualification from office pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification imposed pursuant to a criminal conviction, such as the 1862 Act you link to or the present day 18 U.S.C. §§ 2071(b), 2381 or 2383, are distinct species of disqualification."
You can claim that, sure. Doesn't mean you've got a good case for it.
The Second Confiscation act was enacted prior to the 14th amendment, without a trace of constitutional foundation. The 14th amendment can be understood as retroactively constitutionalizing several ultra vires actions taken during the war; The Confiscation acts, the Civil rights acts. It tracks their language pretty well.
As such, I think we can dismiss the notion that Section 3 is self-executing, and treat it as subject to the normal requirement of enabling legislation, with merely the oddity of that legislation having preceded it by a few years because they got ahead of themselves and were later regularizing what they'd done.
Subsequent to the Civil war era, you had one solitary case of Section 3 enforcement, (Prior to Jan. 6th.) which was done under Congress' enumerated power to decide the qualifications of its own members, and critically, followed a conviction, and was lifted when the conviction was overturned.
So, no, I do NOT think there's a good case for enforcing Section 3 against Trump without convicting him first under a statute that carries that penalty.
The burden is on YOU Brett, you're the one claiming something in addition to the text.
Your arguments are vibes, violence, and vehemence.
Not the arguments of someone on the right side of the facts.
Brett, I doubt that anyone on this comment board gives a damn what you think. As I reminded you upthread, Otto Yourazz and ipse dixit are not legal authorities.
I pointed out plainly and in detail the differences between disqualification as part of a judgment of criminal conviction in an Article III court and disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3. Do you have a statute, judicial decision, treatise or any other authority conflating the two?
Do you claim that the criminal statutes I cited (including the 1862 Act you linked upthread) apply only to those who have previously taken an oath to support the Constitution? If that is your claim, on what authority do you base that claim?
Do you claim that the Congress can remove a disqualification from federal office imposed by an Article III judge as part of a judgment of criminal conviction? If that is your claim, on what authority do you base that claim?
I realize that the Dunning-Kruger effect is a bitch, but show your work.
Still waiting, Brett. If you've got bupkis, man up and say so.
Archibald Tuttle says
Darth Buckeye says
Comments here argue that laws should be ambiguous, otherwise they bind judges too severely and make actual justice impossible. Remember DaivdBehar? He has a good comment on that page.
Justice Scalia (and I) agree with you.
"The Supreme Court further embraced an expansive view of Title VII in Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services, Inc., 523 U.S. 75 (1998), where Justice Scalia, writing for a unanimous Court, declared that “statutory prohibitions often go beyond the principal evil to cover reasonably comparable evils, and it is ultimately the provisions of our laws rather than the principal concerns of our legislators by which we are governed.” Id. at 79."
With that statement you just lost all credibility with anyone who does remember DaivdBehar.
The Colorado Supreme Court's order granting the cross-applications for review accepted the filing of an amicus curiae brief from Professor Mark A. Graber. The professor's view that the president is indeed an officer of the United States is summarized in a useful Balkinization post here. https://balkin.blogspot.com/2023/11/researching-whether-persons-responsible.html
I am speculating here, but I wonder to what extent Judge Wallace's anomalous treatment of the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 may have been colored by a fear of assassination by an unhinged member of the Trump cult.
The final order at Part IV.B. (¶¶61--86) discusses at length Donald Trump's history with political extremists. At ¶85 the order states "The Court finds that Trump knew his violent supporters understood his statements this way, and Trump knew he could influence his supporters to act violently on his behalf." https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/11_17_2023%20Final%20Order.pdf
In light of the evidentiary record it is plausible to surmise that the judge may have ruled out of fear for her safety.
obviously the way to solve this is for vp harris to refuse to count any of trumps electors if it comes down to that. Now that could put baude et al in the position of being insurrectionists, but the preservation of democracy demands it
Your terms are acceptable. Members who object could appeal the ruling of the chair, and Congress would decide the issue.
This is what would have happened in 2020, except the Trump fanbois, like the South Park underwear gnomes, ignored the intermediate step had Pence done what they wanted. Their plan could never have worked, because there was not a majority in both houses to sustain a Pence vote disqualification.
Trump was being pretty unrealistic about how much support he had in Congress at that point, if you ask me.
Indeed. IANAL, but is a stupid plan to commit a crime a legal defense against having attempted the crime? We’re talking about Donald Trump here, of course he had a stupid plan. And even Mike Dense was bright enough to see that and decline being the public face of a doomed plan.
The Confederate states started a war against a country with twice their population (even counting slaves), a larger economy, actual industry, and a Navy to block Confederate exports. Starting the war was stupid, and it failed. The 14th Amendment was written around a stupid, failed insurrection. A good plan cannot be a requirement for its application.
Every count of the indictment in the D.C. case charges Donald Trump with an inchoate offense. Conspiracies in violation of three distinct federal statutes, plus an attempt to corruptly obstruct or impede Congress regarding the electoral vote count. (Count Three also alleges completion of the substantive offense.)
It is not necessary for the prosecution to prove that the United States was actually defrauded, that Congress was actually obstructed, nor that the right to vote, and to have one's vote counted, was actually impaired.
In a recent podcast with Akhil Amar (start at 1:10:20, this is part 2 of their discussion), Amar presents the hypothetical of Trump winning the election, SCOTUS saying he is eligible, but Harris and Congress concluding he is not under 14.3.
Amar argued Congress (not Harris) is the final judge and can choose to not accept his electoral votes. He spoke for Baude and Paulsen (based on part 1 of the podcast) that they believe neither Congress nor Harris has that authority, acting only in a ministerial role.
But, Baude and Paulsen in the first part did go on to say that Trump would still not be eligible to take office even after Congress accepted the votes and his running mate would become acting president per the 20th Amendment. But, Baude and Paulsen did not explicitly say who has the ultimate authority to decide if Trump is eligible, although it seemed like it would be SCOTUS in their view. So in Amar’s hypothetical, they believe Trump becomes president (I think).
It seems an unlikely hypothetical, that Trump could win enough electoral votes but that Congress would be sufficiently anti-Trump to sustain objections to his electoral votes.
So unambiguous, several courts have already taken the off ramp!
(But I agree with Darth Buckeye above, the real issue here is whether any “insurrection” infraction by Trump has occurred to satisfy the amendment and constitutional safeguards of due process. We don’t want ad hoc star chamber proceedings determining such things when no active rebellion is ongoing which would inhibit a criminal prosecution in civil courts for a statutory crime, in the absence congressional section 3 implementing legislation.)
Laws not men, Maddog.
What law here? No implementing legislation. I’m the one objecting to ad hoc star chamber proceedings.
It’s a violation of due process to claim someone guilty of “insurrection” in a time when civil/criminal courts were functioning, which are the only appropriate venue to make such a determination. Absent implementing legislation under section 3. If implementing legislation defined such definition/procedure, I would gladly say that due process was satisfied and no criminal conviction was necessary. But that wasn’t in place as of January 6, 2021.
I have yet to come across an argument that the president is not an officer that is not based on motivated reasoning, whether a judge looking for an off-ramp, or a Blackmaniac desperate to let Trump run.
The only thing missing from their arguments is "Aristotle says".
I think that's fair to say. I'd say the same about Section 3 being 'self-executing', though: It's transparently motivated by a desire to avoid having to prove Trump actually guilty of anything in a criminal trial.
Every other eligibility criteria is self executing, so I don't know how you can say it's transparently motivated reasoning.
Well, I do - you're Brett. But that doesn't work on anyone else.
Every other eligibility criteria is not "was guilty of this thing which is a crime".
It is not a crime. They could have said it had to be a crime; they did not.
You see how you keep having to ipse dixit over and over in this thread? That's a sign your beliefs come from other than facts or law.
Insurrection was literally a crime before the 14th amendment was drafted, surely you're aware of that. The idea that the amendment wasn't referring to the crime is somewhat absurd, and is pretty clearly motivated by the desire to avoid having to actually convict somebody of that crime.
The idea that the amendment wasn’t referring to the crime is somewhat absurd.
No, it's actually how textualism works. They could have left it to Congress if they wanted, or even referred to the elements of the crime. They did not.
Your appeal to absurdity is weak. We know what it would look like if they wanted to bring in that statute; this doesn't look like that.
'pretty clearly motivated by the desire' remains tiresome. Don't tell other people what they are thinking based on your intuition. Your intuition is terminally partisan and sucks, not the least because for you it comes with a huge dollop of unearned confidence.
No, that’s not how textualism works. Absent implementation legislation, authorized in section 3, superseding the statutory offense of insurrection (which existed in law when the amendment was adopted), the only avenue available for disqualification is the criminal conviction for insurrection. THAT is textualism, and the legitimate extent of section 3 being self-executing.
The Constitution knows how to say Congress is empowered to make laws to implement, and see treason for when it lists elements.
It did neither here. It would be a colossal oversight for the drafters of the 14A to just assume 'everyone knew' they meant this one statute.
Yes, no oversight, because it already had an existing statutory definition of insurrection and a means to find someone guilty of it. Congress remains free to override that default condition via implementation legislation.
Just like if a similar constitutional provisions disqualified someone who accepted a bribe. No one would accept that a state election official could keep a candidate off the ballot merely from the accusation that a campaign contribution might have influenced his behavior in office. A criminal conviction would be required.
.
That cuts against your position.
"The language of section 3's banned places is clear and applying that language to encompass the presidency and vice presidency creates no absurdity or normatively implausible results. To the contrary, this application is entirely consistent with the legislative purpose and, to the extent it can be determined, with specific legislative intent and understanding. As much as courts may want an "off-ramp" to avoid the necessity of disqualifying Trump from the presidency, this is not it."
That's putting the cart before the horse. Find the on ramp first that unambiguously includes the President. Don't just assume the President is included and start looking for language that excludes him.
Explicating a truth about the Constitution in a highly read academic paper is not an outcome-oriented 'on-ramp' nor does it assume very much - it's like 100 pages long.
You're being selectively cynical.