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Colorado District Court "Holds that Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment Does Not Apply to Trump"
"The Court is persuaded that 'officers of the United States' did not include the President of the United States."
Today, a state District Court in Colorado rejected a Section 3 challenge to President Trump's eligibility. The court found that President Trump engaged in insurrection, but held that the presidency is not an "Officer of the United States" for purposes of Section 3. This is the argument that Seth Barrett Tillman and I have advanced. The full opinion is over 100 pages long. The analysis of the officer issue begins on page 95. Here is an excerpt, staring on p. 99:
311. On the other hand, Intervenors argue that five constitutional provisions show that the President is not an "officer of the United States."
• The Appointments Clause in Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 distinguishes between the President and officers of the United States. Specifically, the Appointments Clause states that the President "shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law." U.S. CONST. art. II, § 2, cl. 2.
• The Impeachment Clause in Article II, Section 4 separates the President and Vice President from the category of "civil Officers of the United States:" "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." U.S. CONST. art. II, § 4.
• The Commissions Clause in Article II, Section 3 specifies that the President "shall Commission all the Officers of the United States." U.S. CONST. art. II, § 3.
• In the Oath and Affirmation Clause of Article VI, Clause 3, the President is explicitly absent from the enumerated list of persons the clause requires to take an oath to support the Constitution. The list includes "[t]he Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States." US. CONST. art. VI, cl. 3.
• Article VI provides further support for distinguishing the President from "Officers of the United States" because the oath taken by the President under Article II, Section 1, Clause 8 is not the same as the oath prescribed for officers of the United States under Article VI, Clause 3.
312. The Court agrees with Intervenors that all five of those Constitutional provisions lead towards the same conclusion—that the drafters of the Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment did not intend to include the President as "an officer of the United States."
313. Here, after considering the arguments on both sides, the Court is persuaded that "officers of the United States" did not include the President of the United States. While the Court agrees that there are persuasive arguments on both sides, the Court holds that the absence of the President from the list of positions to which the Amendment applies combined with the fact that Section Three specifies that the disqualifying oath is one to "support" the Constitution whereas the Presidential oath is to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution, [FN19] it appears to the Court that for whatever reason the drafters of Section Three did not intend to include a person who had only taken the Presidential Oath. [FN20]
[FN19] The Court agrees with Petitioners that an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution encompasses the same duties as an oath to support the Constitution. The Court, however, agrees with Intervenors that given there were two oaths in the Constitution at the time, the fact that Section Three references the oath that applies to Article VI, Clause 3 officers suggests that that is the class of officers to whom Section Three applies.
[FN20] Whether this omission was intentional, or an oversight is not for this Court to decide. It may very well have been an oversight because to the Court's knowledge Trump is the first President of the United States who had not previously taken an oath of office.
314. To be clear, part of the Court's decision is its reluctance to embrace an interpretation which would disqualify a presidential candidate without a clear, unmistakable indication that such is the intent of Section Three. As Attorney General Stanbery again noted when construing the Reconstruction Acts, "those who are expressly brought within its operation cannot be saved from its operation. Where, from the generality of terms of description, or for any other reason, a reasonable doubt arises, that doubt is to be resolved against the operation of the law and in favor of the voter." The Reconstruction Acts, 12 U.S. Op. Att'y Gen. 141, 160 (1867) (emphasis added).[FN21] Here, the record demonstrates an appreciable amount of tension between the competing interpretations, and a lack of definitive guidance in the text or historical sources.
[FN21] The Court is mindful that Stanbery was considering disenfranchisement, not qualification for office, and that he was interpreting a statute he considered "penal and punitive" in nature; the Court nevertheless finds that the principle articulated, that the law ought err on the side of democratic norms except where a contrary indication is clear, is appropriate and applicable to the circumstances.
315. As a result, the Court holds that Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to Trump.
This argument tracks very closely the arguments that Seth and I have advanced for some time. We look forward to reviewing the opinion more carefully.
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In addition, this case belies the bogus argument that Section 3 is self-executing; see https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4564998
Belies?
2a : to show (something) to be false or wrong
b : to run counter to : contradict
"a provision should not be construed in a way that makes it ridiculous"
I’m glad the judge took that to heart.
But this is more expansive than the Arizona decision, that did not consider whether the President was an "Officer of the United States" or whether the President was an "Officer Under the United States" (both have to be true under section 3), but only whether Congress under Section 5 has required a conviction (presumably for insurrection) for Section 3 to be triggered.
The judge is appointed by a Democratic governor, in case anyone might wonder.
https://ballotpedia.org/Sarah_B._Wallace
Democrats who think Trump is a certain loser who might destroy the Republican party want him on the ballot, confident that a non-incumbent Trump discredited by his own actions since the 2020 election won't get as far as on January 6th.
Realpolitik Republicans want Trump off the ballot as long as they can blame it on Democrats, so a more palatable and younger Trumpian candidate can hold onto the MAGA base and win back conservatives appalled by Trump.
Fearful Democrats traumatized by 2016 and January 6th want Trump off the ballot.
Delusional Republicans who think that Trump will somehow gain popularity from his 2020 failure want Trump on the ballot.
Some people, whatever their partisan leaning, are actually principled in their opinion; one would like all judges to be among those. But if not, partisan leaning alone isn't going to predict the result.
Good comment.
"Realpolitik Republicans want Trump off the ballot as long as they can blame it on Democrats, so a more palatable and younger Trumpian candidate can hold onto the MAGA base and win back conservatives appalled by Trump."
Well, also because they're concerned that Trump has the potential to wrest control of the party from their hands, and give it to a different group of people possibly more in tune with actual Republican voters. That makes it personal for them, their jobs are on the line.
They think he's a loser, same as they thought early in 2016. When he won in 2016, they all changed their tune. If they thought he could win, they'd just be aligning themselves as the people most in tune with the MAGA voters, because that's what they already did. The few principled Republicans like Liz Cheney have already fallen by the wayside, retiring or forced out.
Realpolitik Republicans don't fear that Trump will change their party -- he already did that and they were on board as long as he was a winner. What's changed is that they now think he's a loser and a millstone dragging them down, even if they pretend otherwise in public. The rich donors have cast around desperately for an electable Trump-lite candidate; DeSantis, Haley, Youngkin among others. The realpolitik Republicans can't directly oppose Trump (say, by voting for his post-presidency impeachment) because they'd lose too many voters in future elections, but they're fervently praying that he dies, or that he is disqualified in a way that they can blame solely on Democrats, because thinking he will change is foolish ("pivoting to being presidential" was more of a fantasy than an actual "infrastructure week").
"The few principled Republicans like Liz Cheney"
She had no principles before and continues to have none now.
I have to agree. Even people who generally liked Trump seem to want him to retire. I want him to retire. Even if we could get him into office, he would be unable to get anything done, and it would be a constant fight.
We need a Gerald Ford who can calm the waves and get us to something normal while making general improvement. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone who can do that.
I don’t see anyone on the Republican side running that wants to do that. Or enough Republican voters that want that to elect them if there was.
Is there any Republican that can calm the revolutionary waves generated by Democrats? Republicans that think him retiring will calm anything ignore that their attacks on him are an escalation of, but fully in line with, prior attacks on Republicans before him. There isn't a Republican they don't call Hitler unless they're using him temporarily (Romney).
It hardly matters, the Democrats will just rig the election no matter who the Republican candidate is.
It's hardly worth bothering to vote, is it?
ISWYDT.
Congratulations to Blackman and Tillman! (And to Trump, I suppose.)
Their ridiculous position is now polluting constitutional jurisprudence. It is completely unsupported by any real historical analysis, or even common sense. But whatever. She could've taken a more reasonable way out and used lack of standing, or perhaps political question doctrine. Still hoping for a state official to declare Trump ineligible, and for a challenge of that to hit the courts.
"Their ridiculous position is now polluting "
Why do you think that the judge paid any attention to them? The judge's opinion was 100 pages long, but are you such an expert as to declare it ridiculous?
If some state official will take it on herself to rule Trump off the ballot, she should do it soon. Then the matter can he kick through the courts.
But why are you so afraid of Trump being on the ballot? Because Old Joe is such a bad candidate?
Trump should be in jail and Joe in a retirement home.
Watch some videos of JFK and then tell me that we have a decent choice this year.
A bunch of questions there. I am not such an expert, but I have read pieces by a whole bunch of people who are, and write contemptuously and convincingly about this argument. Plus as I have argued here, common sense should make you suspect the correctness of the argument. Not that common sense always carries the day.
I am not afraid of Trump being on the ballot. Personally, while I think Trump did some bad and probably illegal things, he did not engage in insurrection. So I think Judge Wallace probably reached the correct conclusion for the wrong reasons.
I am not a supporter of "Old Joe," and the only way I would vote for him again is if he is running against Trump. Again.
Just to be more clear:
I would like to see Trump definitively ruled off the ballot immediately
Good. The court may well have averted a second civil war....
L, as they say, OL.
Do you honestly think you can prevent one of our two major parties from running their candidate of choice without a violent insurrection -- an ACTUAL violent insurrection?
Same things likely to happen in New Hampshire -- the Dems want to move the NH Primary to Super Tuesday except that NH State Law says that all presidential primaries must be first in the nation so they are having it in January anyway, and (as I understand it) saying that the Democrats are choosing not to contest the office -- i.e. choosing not to have ANY primary in NH.
What that will mean is that there will be no winner of Dem Primary to put onto the fall ballot -- hence Biden's name won't appear. You have a Republican Sec of State who doesn't care what the DNC says, and you have the Dems refusing to comply with NH law. Personally, I think this is legally a far more solid case than any of the attempts to remove Trump from the ballot, and NH is purple enough for Trump to win if Brandon's name isn't on the ballot.
But those will just be "mostly peaceful protests" because it isn't called a violent insurrection when the left does it.
Dr. Ed 2 is stupid enough to believe that only the winner of the New Hampshire Democratic primary could be the Democratic candidate on the general election ballot. In 1968, Eugene McCarthy was the only candidate on the Democratic primary ballot in New Hampshire, and still lost to the incumbent president who was a write-in candidate. (RFK wasn't in the race yet.) The eventual candidate was of course Hubert Humphrey.
This might alienate enough voters in New Hampshire that Biden loses there in the general election, and may give some momentum to a Democratic primary challenger. He might win as a write-in candidate as Johnson did.
No, I left out a piece — that in order to put *any* candidate on the NH ballot, said *party* must have had a primary in NH (and had it on the specified date).
In other words, by not having a primary -- regardless of who wins it -- the Dems are waiving their right to have a candidate on the ballot.
Or on the ballot without going through the procedure for running as an unenrolled (Independent) candidate -- and there is something about some key deadline already having passed to do that.
They're having a Democratic primary in New Hampshire. Marianne Williamson and Dean Phillips are on it along with a bunch of other candidates. Joe Biden isn't on the ballot, but people are organizing a write-in campaign for him. It's not going to mean no Democratic presidential candidate can be on the general election ballot.
The piece Dr. Ed 2 left out was actually looking on the internet for even a minute. Wikipedia alone would have sufficed.
I'm gonna channel David Nieporent quoting Billy Madison.
The Democratic nominee for president is not determined in any particular state's primary, but instead is selected by a majority of the delegates to the Democratic National Convention.
And as Magister points out, there will be a Democratic primary in New Hampshire.
So, he got off on a technicality…
Well it was a civil trial on ballot access, so I suppose you could say he got ON on a technicality.
+1
We have a winner! Well played.
Blackman has been coy as to whether the presidency is an office under the United States. But this judge held it is not. An insurrectionist Senator is eligible to be President. Who knew?
If one takes the view that 14.3 is antisectional in purpose rather than antidemocratic - sensible given both the sectional concerns and intense populism of the time - it actually would have made sense to exclude the presidency and vice presidency as they're the only ones chosen by the whole nation.
Yes exactly.
That would be a great argument, if anyone in Congress at the time had actually said that. Or if there was even a shred of evidence that anti-sectionalism was all that was intended. But whatever ahistorical argument that can be rigged up out of nothing to arrive at the desired outcome will suffice, I suppose.
Wrong. A Senator is explicitly defined as an office covered under 14/3.
Senators, Representatives, and electors for President and Vice President. There's an office conspicuously missing from that list.
Yes, because it is included in "any office...under the United States...," whereas Congressmen and electors are not. Bingham even said exactly that during the debates. Gotta love originalism.
So are Senators and Representatives, so, why were they listed? Based on your claim, "any office" is doing all the work, but they went to the trouble of enumerating specific federal offices. And left the President and VP out of the enumeration.
Sorry, no. While I don't consider this point dispositive, it is enough to render the position that Trump was not relevantly an officer subject to Section 3 a defensible position. "Any office" "under the United States" apparently does not include Senators, Representatives, or Electors, so they were listed separately.
Perhaps this was a drafting error, I'm inclined to think so. But that the President isn't a Section 3 office is textually defensible.
Yes, but the claim is that an insurrectionist Senator would then be eligible to be elected to the presidency. This seems correct for the reason that Nameless gave above.
Shouldn't it be noted at least in passing that the judge found, "Trump engaged in an insurrection on January 6, 2021 through incitement, and that the First Amendment does not protect Trump’s speech.”?
"Democrat believes same thing every other Democrat believes" is not newsworthy.
I also think this is a BIG EFFIN' DEAL. A court has found that Trump is an insurrectionist. A million ads will be able to shout that from the rooftops. Now, his supporters will not care. But since they don't care what any court...ANY COURT...will end up finding, you don't aim the ads at them. Ignore those with mental re***dation, and focus on persuadable voters--the ones with brains. The ones with integrity and character.
Appellate courts may or may not revisit the question about whether or not "president" is an officer. But what will never be overturned is the factual finding by a court that Trump actually did do this horrific act.
Seems like a huge deal to me. YMMV, of course.
It will be a BIG EFFIN' DEAL on the day a jury finds Trump is an insurrectionist, or even a judge in a felony trial, rather than a civil action.
As it is, the judge got his dig in without going there. Insurrection lite, all the ego-boost without any of the legal implications.
Until then, the insurrectionist has your support.
Brett, I think sm811 is right. It is a big deal. It will now be cited endlessly in cases, and used as evidence. It won't matter that it wasn't a jury, wasn't a criminal trial. All that will matter is the factual determination by the judge. That is what will be cited.
Are judicial factual determinations appealable (is that even a word?)?
It's a big deal from a PR standpoint, legally it's meaningless, essentially dicta. The PR hit was the only reason for the judge to rule him an insurrectionist, if Section 3 didn't apply to him in the first place, the judge had no need to rule on that point.
He was just stating the obvious.
That's the problem here: You think his being guilty is so 'obvious' you have no need to afford him a criminal trial and bother convicting him before acting on his supposed guilt.
It's not a matter of a legal definition of guilt, it's what he's on the record as saying and doing. Whether he committed a crime or not, he tried to overturn an election, he tried to remain in power after he lost, other people tried to help him in this goal, a mob attacked the Capitol to change the election outcome. If you're resttrained from drawing conclusions after all that, it's because you don't want to.
Yes, he tried to overturn an election by establishing that it was stolen.
And the mob doesn't matter unless you can demonstrate him directing them to do what they did.
Bellmore, if you can demonstrate Trump directing them, or even encouraging them, or joining with them in some way on the way to the Capitol, or attempting to do that, then Trump should be charged with treason. Just as the most militant among those who actually attacked the Capitol should have been charged with treason.
By handing Trump ammunition to contest in detail and at length the technical-looking less-than-treason charges against him, the Justice Department made it more likely that Trump will be acquitted—or that he will be successful in his effort to run out the clock on all charges, until he can get reelected and stop the prosecutions including the Georgia prosecution. No one should suppose Trump as President would not do whatever it takes, by which I mean stop at nothing, to avoid a criminal conviction.
Are you a child to believe such shit?
You don't get to tell people what matters. His supporters showed their true colours, the same way you do every time you lie to protect him.
he tried to overturn an election by establishing that it was stolen
There was no evidence it was stolen from him. So, he tried to steal the election by making bullshit claims.
Yes, he tried to overturn an election by establishing that it was stolen.
Yes. And he failed miserably well before Jan. 6, and knew it.
"There was no evidence it was stolen from him."
Not remotely enough, which is a big part of why he failed, but this is still what he, facially, was attempting.
There being no evidence, and him being told such many times, means that was NOT what he was attempting.
.
I think you mean STOLLEN. He knew it wasn't stolen.
There have been several insurrections, using your argument, just this year.
I note that they do not seem to upset you at all, Benedict.
They don't, because no amount of your bullshitting makes them insurrections.
Look. You need to have an objective set of criteria. We can discuss many different groups. However, there is no logical set that includes January 6 but doesn’t include CHAZ. I genuinely cannot see criteria that includes January 6 but doesn’t include our VP supporting people engaged in an active insurrection in Portland, even after people started dying.
By the standards set to call January 6 an insurrection, there were multiple ones this year. The only way around this is ad-hoc definitions that clearly are non-objective.
That it was an attempt to overturn the results of an election. And part of a larger effort to do so.
That wasn't hard.
That indeed is the rub -- the opinion proves way too much in generating a softball definition of "insurrection" that then of course it finds to be "easily satisfied" by Jan. 6:
Seems to me just the latest and greatest "ooo, shiny broad language" holding made for expediency to make sure it captures the present-day Bad Thing without any regard for the difficulties such a catchall definition will create down the road.
Footnote 16 basically just punts on the issue, briefly mentioning and not really distinguishing at all a very simple example from one of Trump's experts: "Even if the Court interprets delivering mail as 'execution of the Constitution,' preventing delivery would only be an insurrection if it was accomplished by a coordinated group of people preventing the delivery of mail and that group was preventing the delivery of mail by force." OK, but so what? Not only would that be easily satisfied by something like CHAZ, it could even cover two people agreeing to stand in front of my mailbox and push the postal carrier away -- or just threaten to do so! -- when she tried to put my mail in it. If that's "insurrection," then words just don't mean much of anything anymore.
'I genuinely cannot see'
Surely you ain't that dumb.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that CHAZ was an insurrection. It was not "this year," so is not what damikesc was talking about. But… I mean, I agree that none of the people who were involved in CHAZ should be president.
"But… I mean, I agree that none of the people who were involved in CHAZ should be president."
Well, that's fine, but Trump wasn't involved in breaking into the Capitol, either. They're accusing him of inciting and aiding, and the latter by mere inaction.
So plenty of basis for equally pinning CHAZ on Democrats.
"The PR hit was the only reason for the judge to rule him an insurrectionist, if Section 3 didn’t apply to him in the first place, the judge had no need to rule on that point."
Which courts are responsible for establishing the facts of a case?
If you don't know what you're talking about, it's ok to just say so instead of confidently being wrong.
But this "fact" didn't need to be established to decide the case.
A responsible, non-political judge wouldn't have touched the issue with a ten-foot pole.
I suggest that you read not_guilty’s post, below.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/11/17/colorado-district-court-holds-that-section-three-of-the-fourteenth-amendment-does-not-apply-to-trump/?comments=true#comment-10324238
.
If one needs to establish A and B to prevail in a case, and a court rules that one didn't establish A, then it's true that the court could stop there and not analyze B. Or it could rule that one didn't establish B and stop there and not analyze A.
Or, if all the evidence and arguments necessary to establish A and B have been presented to the court, it could rule on both. There's nothing wrong with that; it's entitled to do so and can save much time and judicial resources. For example, if it rules that one didn't establish A and then stops, then if an appeals court disagrees, it will remand and the trial court will have to then rule about B and then the matter will have to go back to the appeals court again. Whereas if the trial court rules on A and B, then they can be the subject of the same appeal.
The arithmetic doesn't seem to be in your favor here. The amount of time the trial court judge spends on analysing B will be the same whether she does it ab intio or on remand, so the only wastage of judicial resources will be the extra time spent by the appeal court on its second look.
But that time will only be spent if the appeal court disagrees with the trial court on A. If the appeal court agrees with the trial court on A, then all the time the trial court judge spent on B is wasted.
Thus a Nieporent approved diligent trial court judge will save a small amount of appeal court time by doing the B analysis up front, if he/she is wrong on A, but waste a chunk of trial court time by doing the B analysis if the appeal court agrees on A.
Thus whether a diligent or a lazy judge is the more efficient depends on :
(a) the quantity of work required to do the B analysis,
(b) the incremental quantity of work required by the appeal court to deal with the issue coming before them again after a lazy judge has done his B analysis on remand, compared with what they would have had to do if the B analysis had already been done up front,
(c) the probability that the appeal court will disagree with the trial court's A analysis
In a case like this where B is a a heavily fact sensitive matter, constituting 90% of the trial court judge's lengthy opinion (a) would seem to be large. (b) would seem to be small, since the actual legal analysis required by the appeal court is unchanged, it's just a bit of extra scheduling and paperwork. And (c) - well who knows, but I'm guessing that appeals courts reverse or remand only a minority of trial court decisions, so (c) can safely be expected to be considerably below 50%.
So the lazy judge would seem likely to be the more efficient one here. In other cases, where B requires little effort in the trial court, the balance of advantage might be the other way round.
(I accept of course that the ping ponging would cause delay, and I am measuring only the time taken to do the work, not the absolute duration of the case.)
"Are judicial factual determinations appealable (is that even a word?)?"
Final orders are appealable. Factual findings in a Colorado bench trial "shall not be set aside unless clearly erroneous, and due regard shall be given to the opportunity of the trial court to judge the credibility of the witnesses", per Rule 52 of the Colorado Rules of Civil Procedure.
I surmise that Donald Trump will cross-appeal because of the plethora of factual findings which were resolved in favor of the Petitioners. Trump will want to avoid the offensive use of nonmutual collateral estoppel in other litigation.
For example, Trump has been sued for damages by several members of Congress for his actions and omissions culminating in the events of January 6. Thompson v. Trump, 590 F.Supp.3d 46 (D.D.C. 2022). One of the issues in that lawsuit is whether Trump's speech to the crowd at the Ellipse is protected by the First Amendment under Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). If that suit survives Trump's interlocutory appeal of the denial of his claims of immunity, Judge Amit Mehta could be entitled to consider the Colorado factual findings (if upheld by the appellate courts) to bolster the D.C. plaintiffs' claims that Trump's speech is unprotected. (A matter that Judge Mehta resolved in the plaintiffs' favor at the pleading stage. 590 F.Supp.3d at 113-18.)
“Appellate courts may or may not revisit the question about whether or not ‘president’ is an officer. But what will never be overturned is the factual finding by a court that Trump actually did do this horrific act.”
The Colorado Supreme Court is virtually certain to revisit the question of whether the president is or is not an officer. SCOTUS will have the opportunity, if it chooses, to review any judgment of the Colorado Supreme Court.
Remarkably absent from Judge Wallace’s ruling on that point is any discussion of Article II, § 2, cl. 1 of the Constitution, providing that “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States[.]” How is the commander in chief of the armed forces not an “officer[] of the United States”? That makes no sense whatsoever.
See, that is why I think it is a much bigger deal not guilty. Thx for that cite.
Because “Officer” has a Constitutional definition that differs from what you seem to believe it does. Your repeated selective quotation of AIIS2C1 has nothing to say about the Constitutional definition. I note that you blatantly ignore the one actual use of the word “Officer” in that section:
“The President … may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices….” This is the only use of the word “Officers” in the clause you repeatedly cite. “Principal” implies the person with highest authority; thus, there's a decent argument that the one person in the Executive who ranks above a “principal Officer” (the President) cannot be an Officer himself. Ironic that the one clause you cite in defense of your theory seems to point to the opposite conclusion.
Ummm, Bill Clinton's having oral sex with an intern in the Oval Office was a Big Effing Deal that the majority of the voters didn't care about.
I can see a lot of voters simply concluding that all politicians are crooked....
I have long thought that Bill Clinton survived impeachment for two important reasons, among others. His harshest critics were loathsome, e.g., Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay, Kenneth Starr. And these critics harped on character flaws that the public had already (twice) taken into their electoral calculation. Voters knew when we elected him that Clinton had zipper problems and that he did not always tell the truth.
Perhaps, but I don't think many voters thought he would actually commit perjury.
He survived impeachment because of Filegate. The impeachment managers were indeed loathsome, blackmailably so.
So he uses some of that info to take out Livingston, (Who was replaced by the even more subject to blackmail Hastert.) and then the managers, having just won a climatic vote to conduct a thorough investigation of all possible charges against Clinton, abruptly decide to cut things short, drop almost all of the charges, and proceed to a farcical Senate trial where the Senators aren't even presented the evidence, but only permitted to look at it if they chose. (The record indicates that none of the Democrats bothered to.)
So, yes, the Republican leadership of the time was dirty, too dirty to not take a dive after the Ellen Rometsch strategy was deployed.
Blackmail without evidence. Just 'they had skeletons in their closet.' .
That's not enough to support the story you're telling. This is why people call you a conspiracy theorist, Brett.
I mean, that link literally says exactly the opposite, and there's precisely zero evidence for any of this nuttery of Brett's. Not surprising that he would attempt to rely on Judicial Watch, though, given that at the time they were run by a certifiable lunatic, Larry Klayman.
(Now they're run by a pure grifter, Tom Fitton, who isn't even a lawyer but pretends to be. Though despite the fact that he's a MAGA loon, I suppose we should be grateful to him because it was his utterly incompetent and unqualified legal advice that's going to get Trump sent to prison in the stolen documents case.)
Natural readings trump unnatural ones. Saying the president is not an officer of the United States, and saying his oath is not one to "support the Constitution of the United States" is Simon-didn't-say textualism.
We've seen a likely sound result for unsound reasons.
That's exactly right. It could be reasonably argued that Trump did not engage in insurrection as meant by the amendment, but the notion that the exclusion doesn't apply to the Presidency is just looney tunes.
I agree with Alpheus on both points.
The Blackman/Tillman analysis has always struck me as the worst kind of Constitutional nitpicking.
It's a really weird dynamic: six rather meek and almost apologetic pages at the very end that effectively render the first 80+ hellfire-and-brimstone pages a full-on advisory opinion.
One wouldn't have to be too terribly cynical to imagine this is some sort of clumsy set-and-spike effort along the lines that NG has been lusting after for the past month or so, where subsequent cases argue collateral estoppel/issue preclusion as to whether Trump engaged in insurrection. But it's difficult to see how subsequent litigants would persuasively argue that this 80+ page analysis of that question was necessary to the ruling given that the President/officer analysis mooted it.
Unclear on what mootness means, are we? (As well as the distinction between findings of fact and conclusions of law?)
Judge Wallace opined at footnote 12:
28 U.S.C. § 1738 provides in relevant part:
Under Colorado law, the doctrine of collateral estoppel “bars relitigation of an issue if: (1) The issue precluded is identical to an issue actually litigated and necessarily adjudicated in the prior proceeding; (2) The party against whom estoppel was sought was a party to or was in privity with a party to the prior proceeding; (3) There was a final judgment on the merits in the prior proceeding;(4) The party against whom the doctrine is asserted had a full and fair opportunity to litigate the issues in the prior proceeding.” Bebo Constr. Co. v. Mattox v. O’Brien, P.C., 990 P.2d 78, 84–85 (Colo. 1999).
When the instant judgment becomes final -- that is, upon review by the Supreme Court of Colorado and, if it chooses to grant review, by SCOTUS -- it should have preclusive effect in civil litigation as to such matters as whether Donald Trump in fact engaged in insurrection and whether Trump's incendiary address to the crowd on the ellipse is protected by Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969).
Rule 52 of the Colorado Rules of Civil Procedure states in relevant part that upon appellate review of a bench trial judgment "Findings of fact shall not be set aside unless clearly erroneous, and due regard shall be given to the opportunity of the trial court to judge the credibility of the witnesses." That is quite a high threshold. Several courts have approvingly quoted the language of the U. S. Seventh Circuit in – Parts and Elec. Motors, Inc. v. Sterling Elec., Inc., 866 F.2d 228 (7th Cir. 1988), cert. denied, 493 U.S. 847 (1989): "To be clearly erroneous, a decision must strike us as more than just maybe or probably wrong; it must, as one member of this court recently stated during oral argument, strike us as wrong with the force of a five-week-old, unrefrigerated
dead fish."
Um, "necessarily adjudicated" is exactly what I mentioned in my original post, and moots (yes, Virginia, renders irrelevant/academic) the remainder of your screed.
Uh. findings of fact are necessary to the judgment in any civil bench trial in Colorado. Rule 52 of the Rules of Civil Procedure states: "In all actions tried upon the facts without a jury or with an advisory jury, the court shall find the facts specially and state separately its conclusions of law thereon and judgment shall be entered pursuant to Rule 58." [Emphasis added.]
A lawsuit becomes moot only when neither party has a legally cognizable interest in the final determination of the underlying questions of fact and law. County of Los Angeles v. Davis, 440 U.S. 625. 631 (1979). That is plainly not this case.
And now you've ignored "thereon." The court need not find random facts advanced by the parties that aren't necessary to the judgment. I can't imagine you truly believe otherwise, but for some reason at this point you just can't back down.
No need for straw men -- I said nothing at all about the entire lawsuit becoming moot. The specific dispute within the lawsuit of whether Trump engaged in insurrection became legally irrelevant at the point the judge decided that Section 3 doesn't apply to the President and thus the SoS must put his name on the ballot.
A determination on the merits of a lawsuit does not moot any question that is therein analyzed carefully and elucidated by the court. If Judge Wallace had ruled only on the "officer of the United States" issue, and that legal conclusion was reversed on appeal, the appellate court would likely have remanded for further factual findings, as the Court recognized in footnote 12.
Well, given that fallback response it sounds like we’ve finally reached agreement (through gritted teeth or no) that the insurrectiony factfinding was unnecessary to the judgment. If the appellate court flips the President/officer issue, insurrectionism becomes a live issue again. But until then, it’s unavailable as collateral estoppel material for the reasons I stated several posts ago. Thanks for playing.
If you are going to throw legal jargon about, try to learn what it means first.
Judge Wallace set up her order so that the penultimate grounds of determination include only a narrow, debatable legal issue. That does not “moot” other factual and legal issues; it does, however, obviate the need for any remand for further factual findings. The factual findings are unlikely to be disturbed as clearly erroneous by any appellate court. If not modified on appeal, these findings will lend themselves to offensive collateral estoppel use by non-parties suing Donald Trump in other litigation, independent of the ultimate outcome of the instant lawsuit.
If you had bothered to parse my comments above, you would see that I have said that the existence of a final judgment is or course necessary to any collateral estoppel effect. Bebo Constr. Co. v. Mattox & O’Brien, P.C., 990 P.2d 78 (Colo. 1999).
Wow, you apparently caught a fresh head of steam (and/or polished off one too many adult beverages) and are now heading straight back to square 1. I'll put the rattle back on the high chair one last time for this evening:
Um, yeah. But unfortunately for your too-clever "get 'im" plan of the month, the reason they're unlikely to be disturbed (or even considered) is because they weren't necessary to the judgment and thus are irrelevant. At this juncture, they're naught but gratuitous judicial emoting.
As I said several posts ago and you never rebutted, the question of whether Trump engaged in insurrection was not "necessarily adjudicated" in this proceeding and thus at this juncture is unavailable for collateral estoppel purposes under the Colorado law you cited. Your admission in your last post re footnote 12 reinforces that quite clearly.
Don’t blame him, he’s not a lawyer. It seems pretty obvious to me that, if I were a judge hearing this type of case, I’d make sure to also make the factual findings on the record. BECAUSE a higher court might overrule the “office” issue. If I were a shitty judge who ignored the factual findings and only wrote/determined that one issue; then (assuming a higher court did overrule me), I’d have to do the entire trial over again…it’s not like a judge can say, months later, “Um, even thought I put nothing about it in the record; here’s all the factual findings I *would* have put in at the time, if only I’d thought to do so.” Now, THAT’S when you’d be screaming bloody murder. And you’d be entirely correct. That sort of ex post facto ruling would raise all sorts of red flags, and would actually look like a fair dinkum conspiracy.
The Court is mindful that Stanbery was considering disenfranchisement, not qualification for office, and that he was interpreting a statute he considered "penal and punitive" in nature; the Court nevertheless finds that the principle articulated, that the law ought err on the side of democratic norms except where a contrary indication is clear, is appropriate and applicable to the circumstances.
Which is to say the decision analogizes a sovereign power belonging to elector members of the nation's joint sovereignty—over which no court has any legitimate jurisdiction at all—to ordinary criminal jurisdiction to which this Court was authorized by those very electors. That is American constitutionalism turned upside down.
How much clearer can a contrary indication get than this from founder James Wilson:
There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable . . . Perhaps some politician, who has not considered with sufficient accuracy our political systems, would answer that, in our governments, the supreme power was vested in the constitutions . . . This opinion approaches a step nearer to the truth, but does not reach it. The truth is, that in our governments, the supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power remains in the people. As our constitutions are superior to our legislatures, so the people are superior to our constitutions.
The People decreed unequivocally that insurrectionists do not get to hold office. This Court foolishly supposes it possesses jurisdiction to parse, adjust, and constrain the People's edict, even after finding Trump an insurrectionist. Once again, decapitated constitutionalism makes a hugely consequential mess of a judicial decision. The courts are not empowered to constrain the sovereign.
Predictably, the entire judiciary, state and federal, will turn pusillanimous in response to the Trump coup attempt. Just as the Justice Department has been pusillanimous in under-charging Trump.
With such weak defenders, it will be a miracle if American constitutionalism survives the ongoing Trump coup crisis. Trump plays his treason big and open, to intimidate. And intimidate he does.
The astonishment occasioned by Trump's open and public contempt of court, and by his tactic of witness intimidation by public utterance, is exceeded only by the astonishment of watching the courts let him do it. By now, any other criminal defendant who behaved likewise would be in jail to await trial.
While the People's sworn defenders emit platitudes that no one is above the law, they make it clear as daylight that Trump has been treated to a lax style of justice which is legally unique. No other person would be treated that leniently, if they had done what Trump has done.
History has taught what folly it is to quail in the face of a would-would-be dictator armed principally with audacity so great it disarms resistance. Time and again, great political catastrophes began when defenders of established regimes confronted open defiance in a dispirited state which mixed fear with evasive disbelief. That is the process this nation now watches helplessly, while its elected and appointed officers shrink from their responsibilities.
Nobody has been treated this leniently? No politician has had the federal government, and several states, directed against them continuously for years.
"But it...!" You tried so many different tacts to git 'im. You cannot claim with a straight face otherwise. "Insurrection" is the capstone to an effort with a dozen pillars of attack, most long before Jan. 6th.
The biggest threat to democracy isn't him, but directing the power of government against a political enemy for years looking for something, anything, to git 'im with.
So please.
Having said that, he needs to go down in flames as we don't need to sit back and let tanks redefine Europe.
Your claim Trump has had the federal government and states after him for years is idiotic.
You know, except for the continual civil actions, the grand juries, the current multiple cases, having a special counsel sicced on him early in his administration for having taken an action the guy who did the siccing wrote a memo in favor of...
It's idiotic, except for all the times it happened.
You voted for the blundering idiot.
I have seen no evidence that Brett voted for Biden.
Exactly.
So he did not vote for the blundering idiot.
Oh hell...you think Biden is NOT a blundering idiot?
Explains an AWFUL lot.
Oh look a new-born babe.
What you refuse to accept, Brett, is that the vast majority of these, maybe all, were fully justified.
Take one example. You keep making BS comparisons of the clarified documents case with the behavior of Biden and Pence. But you damn well know that the circumstances and behavior of the individuals were as different as night and day. It's just irrational intransigence on your part, nothing more.
Democrats didn't have a secret midnight meeting to plot out a scheme to harass Trump with legal actions. The guy is a crook and fraudster many times over.
They had the documents for YEARS. Many years. With zero justifiable reason to have them.
There is a clear difference in treatment. Another agency to shut down in the near future.
Trump should have learned from Nixon: it's the coverup that gets you in trouble...
They had the documents for YEARS. Many years. With zero justifiable reason to have them.
So the documents sat in files somewhere, forgotten, until the government asked for them back. At which point they returned them immediately when asked.
Trump, OTOH, did not return them when asked, several times, politely, or even when subpoenaed. And of course, he also had no justifiable reason to have them. So you can erase that point from your argument.
So forgotten that Biden carried them from place to place, sorted, divided them, archived some and moved some to an office...
Please, let's not pretend they spent the whole time gathering dust in his garage next to the Corvette.
Did Biden do any of that, though?
So forgotten that Biden carried them from place to place, sorted, divided them, archived some and moved some to an office
and gave them back when asked to do so.
That's the part you refuse to acknowledge, that your brain can't accept.
Stop the insane comparisons. If Trump had behaved as Biden and Pence did there would have been no issue at all.
Write that on the blackboard one hundred times.
They started in 2016, dude, and it's 2023 now.
Yes. That is hugely relevant to whether Joe Biden is amenable to prosecution. See, 18 U.S.C. § 3282(a).
Officially the Federal Govt started the harassment in July of 2016.
Lengthy investigations by the DoJ have determined no evidence ever existed to launch a counter intelligence investigation. (side note, that's because even the FBI knew there is no crime to launch a criminal investigation)
Of coarse the Salient point is all of this, Democrats live in the narrative, never the reality.
ALL of the Democrat Party is capable of is creating a narrative, an alternate reality.
His election campaign staff and his administration saw significant numbers of indictments and convictions. You can’t keep blaming everyone but the crooks for Trump and co being crooked.
'You tried so many different tacts to git ‘im'
I swear to God the degree to which Trump is absolved from his own behaviour is extraordinary, all the more so at this stage.
They didn’t become Trump fans with sound judgment, good character, adequate education, or a functional relationship with the reality-based world.
The degree to which men on right still view Trump as "manly", "tough" or "strong" is also astounding. No one that is so intent on never taking responsibility for anything has ever before been viewed as a "strong leader" or "masculine" figure by so many men.
He's the "alpha victim".
.
Here’s the thing: Stephen Lathrop’s name is not found anywhere in the U.S. Constitution, or any state constitution, or any statute, for that matter. Stephen Lathrop is not empowered to decide as a matter of law what the constitution means just because Stephen Lathrop personally feels it’s unequivocal. This court correctly understands that it possesses jurisdiction to parse the so-called “People’s edict” (which isn’t; the People didn’t enact the Fourteenth Amendment). That’s the judicial power.
Yay, this seems right to me.
I'm not really persuaded that Trump isn't relevantly an officer of the United States, but the reasoning here isn't off the wall.
The most persuasive evidence in favor of this interpretation, so far as I'm concerned, is the actual language of Section 3:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State..."
It would have been so easy to have included President in that list. It would have been perfectly natural, in fact, after listing Senators and Representatives. But they didn't; They specified the Electors.
The reason for that is that they didn't consider members of Congress or Presidential Electors to be officers under the US. That is the reasonable and correct reading of the text.
It's in there, Bellmore. The presidency is a civil office. Commander in Chief is a military office.
Article II, Section 4: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."
Note that the Impeachment Clause does not say "all other civil officers." If you wanted to include the Presidency in the definition of civil officers, that's a hell of an oversight. As for military officer, I can't find a relevant Constitutional provision. But 10 USC 101(b)(1) defines a military officer as a commissioned or warrant officer. The President is neither.
Maybe try doing some Constitutional and statutory analysis instead of just stating your preferred conclusions without evidence.
I do not agree with you that the wording of that section necessarily means the President and Vice President are not civil Officers of the United States. Yes, use of the word "other" would've been clearer, but President and Vice President may have just been listed for emphasis. "Johnny, Willy, and the whole gang went to the movies together." Johnny and Willy are clearly members of the whole gang.
1. One of the Tilman/Blackman papers notes that the original draft of the Impeachment Clause said "all other civil officers" and the "other' was later edited out. Which implies a bit of thought at least.
2. "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office ..."
indicates that the President and Vice President have Offices to be removed from, strengthening the argument that they hold offices.
One of the interesting things brought up in the Kurt Lash article is that the original draft of 14A section 3 included language specifying the President and Vice President, as well as Senators, Reps, etc. That language was subsequently dropped for the version that eventually passed. Hmm...
I hadn’t seen this argument before:
“Section Three specifies that the disqualifying oath is one to “support” the Constitution whereas the Presidential oath is to “preserve, protect and defend” the Constitution, it appears to the Court that for whatever reason the drafters of Section Three did not intend to include a person who had only taken the Presidential Oath.
The Court agrees with Petitioners that an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution encompasses the same duties as an oath to support the Constitution. The Court, however, agrees with Intervenors that given there were two oaths in the Constitution at the time, the fact that Section Three references the oath that applies to Article VI, Clause 3 officers suggests that that is the class of officers to whom Section Three applies.”
It seems to settle the matter beyond all doubt. The fact that the constitution specifies two different oaths, one for the president and one for “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States” and only the second oath specifies that they “support” the constitution.
While section 3 refers to “who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States”, very similar phrasing to Article 6, which clearly doesn’t apply to the President.
That seems to rule out very clearly that Section 3 applies to the President.
Now all you need is a reason why the framers would've been perfectly okay with an insurrectionist holding the office of the Presidency. And if that were the case, why wouldn't they have written that the Presidency was excluded in clear terms, rather than having to parse text like a Talmudic scholar playing number games with the letters of the Torah.
Exactly. The whole business is legal pettifoggery. How do we know the Framers didn't use "Officer" and "Officer under" interchangeably?
Why distinguish between two oaths that, as the court says, mean the same thing?
More fantasy originalism.
Like Kazinski, I hadn't seen this argument before, but reflecting on it, I think it's rather a good one. (Bearing in mind that I am one of those who doesn't think that trying to figure out what the text of the law means is "pettifoggery", but rather the very thing that judges should be attempting. Those judges who abandon the text in pursuit of silent purposes are themselves dangerous insurrectionists.)
So why is it a good argument ? Because the text says :
who, having previously taken an oath ...... to support the Constitution of the United States
Which refers - in terms - to one of the two oaths in the Constitution. And that's not the Presidential one. But why should we "pettifog" about the precise terms of an oath ? Because an oath is a serious matter, which puts your soul in peril. And as Robert Bolt explains in this exchange between Thomas More and his daughter, "an oath is made of words" :
Father?
Margaret!
I couldn't get a boat. What is it, Meg?
Father, there's a new act going through parliament. And by this act,they're going to administer an oath... ...about the marriage.
On what compulsion is the oath?
High treason.
But what is the wording?
Do the words matter? We know what it means.
Tell me the words. An oath is made of words. It may be possible to take it.
Take it?
And if it can be taken, you must take it, too.
No!
Listen, Meg. God made the angels to show him splendour. As he made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But Man he made to serve him wittily, in the tangle of his mind. If he suffers us to come to such a case that there is no escaping... ...then we may stand to our tackle as best we can. And yes, Meg, then we can clamour like champions, if we have the spittle for it. But it's God's part, not our own, to bring ourselves to such a pass. Our natural business lies in escaping. If I can take this oath, I will.
Now perhaps you could explain how an oath which preserves, protects, and defends the constitution isn't also supporting the constitution. Is it really your view that the President of the United States is not bound by his oath to support the constitution? That would have to be the case if the office of the Presidency is excluded from section 3 for this reason.
The question is - does a President take an oath “to support the Constitution” ?
And he doesn’t because that’s not what the Presidential oath says. That what the Presidential oath does say may encompass items that amount to “support” does not mean that “support” is what the President swears to do.
It exactly DOES mean that. If the things the President swears to do encompasses items that amount to support, he is swearing an oath to support the constitution.
If I understand your argument correctly, the President does not swear to support the constitution, because the oath does not include the word "support." But surely the things included in the Presidential oath do amount to supporting the constitution. That is all that section 3 requires, breaking an oath to support the constitution. Your interpretation that the covered oaths must include the word "support" seems unreasonable to me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument.
Yes, I think you are misunderstanding my argument.
My argument is that if you swear an oath "to get to Seattle as soon as possible" you have not sworn an oath "to fly to Seattle" even if flying is, in fact, the quickest way to get to Seattle.
The oath did not specify flying, it specified as quickly as possble.
So if you remain on your sofa and make not the smallest effort to get to Seattle quickly, or at all, you have broken your oath "to get to Seattle as quickly as possible." But you have not broken your oath "to fly to Seattle" because you never made such an oath.
Thus whether the actions required by your oath amount to the same as the actions that might have been required by a differently worded oath, the oath that you broke is the one that you made, not the one that you might have made instead.
So if there was a law stating that "anyone who swears an oath to fly to Seattle, and fails to do so, is liable for a $100 fine" - you haven't broken it.
I think the difference between your example and the oaths is that defending and protecting is necessarily supporting, whereas getting to Seattle as quickly as possible is not necessarily flying.
I guess we'll just have to disagree about this. Thank you, enjoyed the discussion.
Bearing in mind that I am one of those who doesn’t think that trying to figure out what the text of the law means is “pettifoggery”, but rather the very thing that judges should be attempting.
No, Lee. Figuring out what the text of the law means is not pettifoggery. Basing facially unreasonable conclusions on thin inferences from minor linguistic points in a 225+ year old, or even just 150+ year old, document is pettifoggery.
I don't think it's wise to assume the Constitution was divinely inspired, so we must carefully interpret every comma, every turn of phrase, to determine divine intent.
But this particular minor linguistic point would apply just as well if the text had been written yesterday.
The bit that requires the person in question to have sworn an oath to “support” the constitution doesn’t mean anything different now from what it meant 150 years ago.
If Trump were put on the stand and asked “Did you or did you not on - whatever the date was - take an oath “to support the constitution of the United States ?” then if he answered “No” do you imagine he could be done for perjury ?
That’s not what he gave his oath to do, in 2020s language just as much as 1860s language, and his “No” is true. He never gave his oath “to support” the constitution.
We may stipulate that he did break the oath he did give, but even if do, it doesn’t change the oath that he did give.
But this particular minor linguistic point would apply just as well if the text had been written yesterday.
Actually, it wouldn't, in part because we could ask the people who wrote it whether or not they meant to make any kind of meaningful distinction between people who took oaths that were differently worded but substantively identical.
True, but not the way you mean. Which is to say,it's not a point at all. To draw this distinction because two substantively identical oaths are worded somewhat differently is
Nah. What lawmakers meant to do, yesterday or a couple of hundred years ago, is simply irrelevant. What matters is what they did.
After they've done it, their opinion as to what they were trying to do counts no more than yours or mine. Stay off the Drinkwater cocktails. Intention, common sense, these are all irrelevancies.
The law is what makes it onto paper.
Funny how Bernard's analysis necessarily results in his preferred outcome that Trump was an Officer and that the 14th Amendment is self-executing. Results oriented thinking rather than engagement with the arguments presented. Shocker
Don't be beastly to bernard, he's one of my favorite lefties on this site. He may get a bit emotional from time to time - and why not ? - but he's an honest man and makes honest arguments even when they're wrong.
I have no idea what your preferred outcome is, or what Lee's is either. Personally, although I would strongly prefer to see Trump off all Presidential ballots, I do not think section 3 does the job, because I don't think he engaged in insurrection as meant by the amendment. So my preferred outcome has nothing to do with my argument here.
For the record, I am in two minds as to my preferred outcome.
1. My narrow short term preference is that Trump is lawfared off the ballot so that the Republicans are forced to put up somebody (a) more electable, (b) more competent and (c) less narcissistic
2. My nobler self, however, is appalled at the prospect of lawfaring a candidate off the ballot on such flimsy grounds.
On balance 2 wins. I'd rather Trump stayed on the ballot even though that seems likely to prolong the life of the current - awful - administration, than career over the precipice.
Drinkwater cocktails are delicious, I'll have you know.
"Pettifoggery" = not reaching a conclusion that confirms my priors and gives me the outcome I want. Gotcha.
One reason, obviously, is that if a majority of Electors, all of whom are not oath breaking insurrectionists, are willing to elect X as President, that of itself i a good reason why they, and those who elected them should have their way.
However it is not necessary - or desirable - to hunt about for speculative reasons as to why the framers did this or that, it is merely necessary to read what they wrote into law.
The law is not what the lawmakers hoped to achieve, it is what they wrote down on paper.
True, but if you are intent on making an interpretation of the text that would seem to defy common sense, it would support your argument if a reason existed why the framers intended such a thing. And the notion that the framers of this amendment were okay with an insurrectionist being President certainly defies common sense.
As for your posited reason, why wouldn't the same logic apply to every other office included in the restriction? The vast majority of voters in Maine were not insurrectionists, yet they cannot be trusted to elect a state or federal legislator who isn't an insurrectionist, the framers chose to make this "antidemocratic" exclusion. I am not convinced. Of course it would be convincing if you could supply any contemporary source at all that the framers intended to exclude the office of President for that reason.
But the exclusion allows all the voters of Maine, oath breaking insurrectionists as well as solid loyalists, to vote for Congresscrittur That you mention Maine rather than Alabama is cherrypicking.
The electors of Congresscritturs etc have not been sanitised and scrubbed clean of insurrectionists. Hence the control is necessary at the level of Congresscrittur
But the electors of the President are pristine and if they are good with X, their judgement can be trusted.
I answer only for forms sake since as I mentioned above your repeated appeals to “common sense” and evidence of “intention” carry as much weight as demands to know what prayers and incantations were used by the scribe who drafted the text.
All totally irrelevant.
"Appeals to common sense" and "evidence of intention" are all tools that help us choose between various possible interpretations of the text. I can well understand that you do not wish to give them any weight, since they all cut against your chosen interpretation.
As for selection of Congresscritturs, at the time the amendment was passed, state legislatures selected US Senators. Article 3 clearly excludes insurrectionists from serving in state legislatures, yet the article still singles out US Senators to be excluded. State legislatures should be just as "pristine" as the Electoral College. I still find your argument unpersuasive.
Article 3 clearly excludes insurrectionists from serving in state legislatures
I don't think this is right.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state...
I vaguely recall reading somewhere in this blizzard of officerdom that it was not controversial that elected members of Congress are not "officers" - and if they were it would not be necessary to mention them at the start of Section 3 - because they would already be included in the general words "any office...under the United States"
Presumably the same logic applies to members of state legislatures.
Therefore I conclude that the pre 17th amendment electors of Senators are not required to be sanitised by Section 3.
(For the avoidance of doubt , members of state legislatures are clearly included in the list of possible oath breakers, who might be disqualified from the various jobs that are open to disqualification, it's just that "member of state legislature" isn't one of those jobs.)
The Fourteenth Amendment was written directly after the Civil War. There were plenty of Senators, Representatives, state officials, etc. who engaged in rebelling against the United States during that conflict. To my knowledge, there was not a single President or Vice President who did so.
By the clear terms of Section 3, one must of taken an oath to "support" the constitution.
Article 2 specifies the Presidential oath which does not use that word.
Article 6 states all other federal office holders, and officers, and state officers take an oath to "support" the Constitution.
Section 3 does not list the president or VP among the class of excluded oathbreakers, even though it explicitly lists Congress and Presidential Electors.
There are just too many holes to then handwave and say "everyone knew what they meant". Either they were completely incompetent drafters and attorneys or they deliberately excluded the President, either way he still isn't included.
Yes, I understood your argument the first time you wrote it. Apparently, in your view, preserving, protecting, and defending the constitution somehow isn't supporting it. The framers of 14A made this major decision to exclude the offices of President and Vice-President from section 3, and chose to indicate this by that tiny and barely existing distinction, rather than just writing that the President and Vice-President are excluded. That makes sense to you?
The point is not whether preserving, protecting and defending may amount to supporting, it is that an oath to “preserve, protect and defend” is not an oath to “support”.
Because an oath is made of words.
You can condemn an oath breaker for breaking the oath he took. But the oath he took remains what words he swore to. Oaths are literal things, not broad hand wavy things.
You are making a distinction with no difference. If you really believe that the Presidential oath is not a promise to support the constitution, please give an example of an action the President could take that wouldn't break his oath, but doesn't support the constitution. Yes, oaths are made of words, and those words have meanings. The presidential oath is indeed a promise to support the constitution, in that all the things he is promising to do support the constitution.
And you still aren't answering my point that the framers would not have made such a major decision as excluding the Presidency and Vice Presidency from the article, and then hidden that decision such that it can only be discerned by artful interpretation. Does that not make you question your interpretation of the article?
Well I’ve offered one possible reason already – that the electors of Presidents and Vice Presidents come pre-sanitised.
But also, your exclusion only by discernable by artful interpretation could be put another way – ie open and transparent non inclusion. President and Vice President are not mentioned. You have to delve into the also ran category of “any office, civil or military, under the United States” – which comes even after the electors !
The President is the big dog – if you want to include him, why not say so ? Rather than incude him by artful interpretation ?
I see that the judge put it more elegantly than I did :
the President is explicitly absent from the enumerated list of persons the clause requires to take an oath to support the Constitution
The President is also "explicitly absent" from Section 3.
Here is an interesting short article by Kurt Lash, who is a quite distinguished 14th amendment scholar. I would say on balance it supports your argument over mine:
https://lawliberty.org/the-fourteenth-amendments-ambiguous-section-three/
I have another question, and I don't have time to research it. Perhaps you know the answer. By 1866 had most or all of the states passed laws requiring their Presidential Electors to abide by the vote of the electorate? Or were electors still the free agents they were in the 1790's? If the former was the case, I cannot imagine the framers really had much reason to believe that "pre-sanitizing" the electors would be an effective way to keep an insurrectionist out of the White House. Kurt Lash clearly advocates your position in his article, which makes me think that perhaps Electors weren't yet so constricted. Or else Prof. Lash never considered the point.
Dunno, though I assume non binding was the norm.
One extra curiosity that I noticed which might amuse you – Section 3 contains no disqualification for affirmers, only for oath breakers.
Why ? Just poor drafting ? Or maybe the drafters were really only interested in the immediate question of confederate insurrection and as a matter of practice, everybody swore an oath rather than affirmed in those days.
Or maybe as godly folk they saw breaking an oath as outstandingly reprehensible, whereas welching on your affirmation- meh.
Ha ha yeah, it's such a strange part of the amendment. It's as if among all the horror and death that came out of the Civil War, the worst thing was that some politicians violated their oath.
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Not clear why cheap shots at Jews were needed to make your point.
I couldn't think of another apt comparison. Some of those things the Rabbi used to lay out in his Saturday sermons were pretty crazy.
Judge Wallace opined at footnote 19:
This is a question of law reviewable de novo by the Supreme Court of Colorado and eventually by SCOTUS, if it so chooses.
True, as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago he case would be decided by law not facts, and law is review able de novo.
Trump has no defense on the facts. Judge Wallace has keenly teed this lawsuit up for appellate review by determining the factual disputes in the Petitioners' favor and ruling in Trump's favor on a question of law which she regarded as dispositive.
Wow, that quite a statement, "no defense on the facts".
I really don't think incorporating the facts of a partisan congressional committee will really fly, at least not in a federal court.
But you are right there is no need to examine the facts, or the standard to use, when he law makes it clear that there is no path to disqualify Trump from the ballot via a clear reading of section 3.
Kazinski, that is far from clear. How can the commander in chief of the armed forces not be an "officer[] of the United States"? (A point that Judge Wallace did not discuss.)
And factual findings of the House January 6 Committee hearings would be admissible in either state or federal court, for the reasons that Judge Wallace detailed in her order.
The trial court's factual findings were not dependent on the House Committee findings -- the Petitioners presented eighteen hours of witness testimony, as well. Have you noted ¶37 of the order: "Furthermore, while Trump spent much time contesting potential biases of the Committee members and their staff, he spent almost no time attacking the credibility of the Committee’s findings themselves. The Hearing provided Trump with an opportunity to subject these findings to the adversarial process, and he chose not to do so, despite frequent complaints that the Committee investigation was not subject to such a process. Because Trump was unable to provide the Court with any credible evidence which would discredit the factual findings of the January 6th Report, the Court has difficulty understanding the argument that it should not consider its findings which are admissible under C.R.E. 803(8)." [Footnote omitted.]
Somehow I doubt that the drafters of 14A (or the FFs) were as nitpicking as those who deny that the president is an officer (yet presumably accepting that the presidency is an office). There is "bleeding obvious" textualism where anyone with common sense knows what the drafters meant, and motivated textualism, where people will torture the text to arrive at the desired result - in the case of the judge, a way of saying that Trump is an insurrectionist without penalising him accordingly (to avoid obvious problems), and in the case of Blackman, because Trump Must Stand.
By tortured you mean read the plain words and apply them exactly to the facts?
You have an incredible ability to tune your critical thinking as your partisan priors require.
Well explain to me why the Courts analysis is wrong.
Something other than "it can't possibly mean that regardless of the text."
Because we know that at least the highest court will be looking primarily at the text.
It is an absurd result. This whole thing is in ‘the card says Moops’ territory.
And yet you, oftentimes smart, think that’s the obvious reading. You really do think the answer is Moops.
It’s wild. See also the continually failed whistleblowers convincing you Biden is a crime boss.
It's an absurd result because it reaches the conclusion opposite to what Sarcastr0 would like. News at 9.
The text specifies Reps, Senators, and Presidential electors because they were not considered offices under the US. The text doesn't specify President or Vice-President because they WERE considered offices under the US, just like all the hundreds and hundreds of other local, state and federal offices not specified in the text, but included in the restriction.
The distinction in oaths is even more laughable. It requires one to hold the position that taking an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution isn't also supporting the constitution. Perhaps you or the court could give an example of an action that preserves, protects, and defends the constitution but doesn't support it?
That's why the court's analysis is wrong. In my humble opinion.
Pot, meet kettle.
This just in:
"U.S. Attorney General indicts Colorado District Court on charges of supporting and inciting insurrection."
Sadly, I really wouldn't be surprised to see that happen -- that's how much this country has turned into a Banana Republic with show trials and the rest.
Heck, let's just end the charade and appoint Obama King for Life.
Basic politeness requires saying "a Banana Republic with show trials, the Professor and Mary Ann." Being deranged is no excuse for discourtesy.
I suspect there would be a venue problem in the District of Colorado.
The Office of Special Counsel could have charged Donald Trump with insurrection in D.C. He is charged with offenses carrying greater potential penalties, however, so I suspect that Jack Smith strategically charged offenses simpler for a jury to understand.
It’s curious that those who normally honor the specific words of constitutional provisions (Luttig, Tribe, etc.) are willing to play loosey-goosey when it comes to the 14th, sec 3. Luttig incredibly does not think it’s important to carefully parse the words of provisions [their texts], which would cause textualists like Scalia to whirl in their graves. If the Framers meant what Luttig, Tribe, Baude, etc., claim, they would have simply written “any government official or employee, federal or state, who has taken an oath [and violated it]….” But they didn’t. Officer of the United States” does not include POTUS or the VP. I loath Trump more than many, but I won’t tamper with the words of the Constitution to derail him. That would be …, trumpistry!
The idea that the President is not an "officer" of the United States has always struck me as the sort of nonsense that one would hear from Sovereign Citizen along with a diatribe about fringe on the edges of the flag in the courtroom.
A skim of the opinion suggests the judge doesn't beleive it herself, calling the notion "preposterous". Seems to me that after ruling on the merits she chickened out and grasped at a thin loophole to obviate having to make a decision with a substantial consequence.
I'm assuming it will be overturned on appeal.
Read the part about the oath. It will clear up your confusion.
One thing I was curious about was how the Judge determined the facts, that Trump did engage in insurrection.
What she did was adopt the conclusions of the Jan. 6th Committee as.the basis for her finding.
I find that troubling for a.court of law to adopt the findings of a congressional committee as findings of a court.
And if you disagree then imagine a current Congressional committee finding Joe engaged in Influence Peddling and Money laundering, and having those findings adopted as fact in a court proceeding.
I'll be the first to admit that congressional proceedings can be infected with partisan considerations. Any judge that adopts them without their own independent fact finding risks being accused of their own partisan agenda.
Another troubling insight into the judges mindset is this footnote on page 24: “That is consistent with Professor Simi’s testimony that the language of political extremists is coded so that there is plausible deniability.”
Did the judge have the codebook, or did she hear the dogwhistle?
Did you read the order? The Court devoted only pages 8 through 16 to analyzing the admissibility of the January 6th Committee Report. Moreover, the Court considered relatively few of the House Committee findings. As the Court explained at footnote 7:
So lets do the math, The court accepted 268 findings, 65% of those submitted from the Jan. 6 hearings. Hearings where neither the minority or the President had any opportunity to cross examine the witnesses or call their own witnesses.
Au contraire. As explained in footnote 7 (which I quoted verbatim above), the Court considered and cited 31 such findings in her final order.
You seem to be confused. The Intervenors submitted their own proposed facts from which the judge picked some.
Who representing the President or the house minority had an opportunity to cross examine or call their own witnesses at the Jan 6 hearings?
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Well, Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, to name two.
Also, any four other members of the house minority besides Jim Banks and Jim Jordan had the opportunity. They just refused to take advantage of it.
The court admitted 268 of the 411 findings submitted, but ultimately used very few. The opinion addresses your objections thoroughly. Republicans tried to sabotage the investigation, with McConnell blocking a bipartisan commission and McCarthy trying to put potential witnesses on the committee and then boycotting it entirely when they were rejected. There were two Republicans on the committee, and from his testimony in this case, Ken Buck asked to be put on it after Pelosi rejected Jordan and Banks, but McCarthy rejected that request. Trump could have called any of the witnesses to the Colorado court if he had wanted to cross examine them, and was able to call his own witnesses.
Donald Trump's failure to testify calls to mind the missing witness inference. (Trump was unavailable to the petitioners, their motion to conduct an evidentiary deposition of him having been denied. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24083707/10_22_2023-order-petitioners-motion-for-permission-to-conduct-a-trial-preservation-deposition-of-donald-j_-trump-publicly-filed-1.pdf) As SCOTUS opined in Baxter v. Palmigiano, 425 U.S. 308 (1976):
425 U.S. at 319-20 n.3, quoting 3A J. Wigmore, Evidence § 1042 (Chadbourn rev. 1970).
If and when SCOTUS reviews the forthcoming decision of the Supreme Court of Colorado regarding Donald Trump's eligibility to serve as president, should Justices Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Bear It recuse themselves?
Each was a Circuit Court judge prior to Trump appointing him/her to SCOTUS. In 2023, the difference in the annual salary of an Associate Justice and that of a Circuit Judge is almost $40,000. The lifetime SCOTUS appointments are accordingly worth millions of dollars if the Trump Three serve a normal Supreme Court tenure in office.
Might these justices' impartiality reasonably be questioned? 28 U.S.C. § 455(a).
You know this isn't going to happen. If the standard you propose actually held, Burger, Blackmun, Powell, and Rehnquist would have had to recuse themselves from US v. Nixon. Breyer and Ginsburg would have had to recuse themselves from Bush v. Gore. Neither happened. The Trump appointees recusing themselves will similarly not happen.
You are correct that it won't happen, and there's no need for it to happen — but it does pose an interesting thought experiment given the Trumpkin argument that no judge, investigator, or prosecutor appointed by a Democrat should be allowed to participate in any investigation or trial of Trump.