The Volokh Conspiracy
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Censorship Envy
One reason I broadly oppose governmental restrictions on the expression of ideas—even obviously bad, dangerous, and offensive ideas—is the phenomenon I call "censorship envy": The common reaction that, "If my neighbor gets to ban speech he reviles, why shouldn't I get to do the same?"
[1.] To offer one example, say a public university bans speech that expresses support for Hamas attack on civilians, and a court upholds that (perhaps on the theory that this supposedly creates a "hostile educational environment" for Jewish or Israeli students).
It seems to me quite likely, and psychologically understandable, that this will create an impetus for greater moves to ban other speech, such as support for Israeli retaliatory strikes against Hamas or other future attackers. Such a misplaced desire for equality of repression is a powerful mental force, and it's one way in which narrow speech restrictions can end up leading to broader ones.
Indeed, I already often hear it as a defense for restrictions on pro-Hamas speech: In practice, some universities already do various things to try to punish speech that's supposedly racist or sexist or anti-gay or anti-trans or what have you. Isn't it only fair that they likewise punish speech that defends the killing of Jews? Yet if that argument for comparable speech suppression is accepted, why would we think it will stop there?
But beyond this, even if the envy doesn't lead to broader speech restrictions, that itself is dangerous to society. Say that, even if the ban on pro-Hamas speech is allowed, a move to similarly ban pro-Israeli-retaliation speech fails. The pro-Israeli-retaliation speech will then likely rankle many Americans even more, creating more offense and more division.
Right now, when people are deeply offended by various kinds of speech, the legal system can powerfully tell them: "Yes, you must endure this speech that you find so offensive, but others must endure offensive speech, too. Many people hate speech you like as much as you hate the speech they like, but the Constitution says we all have to live with being offended: We must fight the speech we hate through argument, not through suppression."
Yet what would we say when some offensive viewpoints are banned but other offensive viewpoints are allowed? "We who have the support of the majority get to suppress symbols we hate, but you in the minority don't"? "Our hatred of certain speech is reasonable but your hatred of other speech is unreasonable"?
Yes, it's true, you can argue for various distinctions, such as between speech defending the purposeful killing of civilians and speech defending the merely knowing killing of civilians incidental to attack military targets. (I actually agree with such a distinction on the merits, though not as a basis for banning some speech.) But are Americans on the other side of these debates from you likely to be persuaded by these arguments? Are those arguments likely to lead to more domestic peace and stability, or less?
[2.] This is also one of the reasons (though not the only one) why I oppose European-style "hate speech" laws. One recurring argument from Muslims who want Mohammed cartoons legally suppressed is that European laws prohibit other kinds of speech offensive to other groups—for instance, Holocaust denial, which is often restricted chiefly because it's seen as implicitly or explicitly anti-Semitic—and that Muslims should get the same treatment.
In practice, those other prohibitions don't get used that often, and European speech is actually more free than the laws would suggest. Nonetheless, the laws' presence does make possible the argument I describe. And I suspect it does make many Muslims feel even more aggrieved than they would be by the cartoons themselves, since they are also now aggrieved by what they see as discriminatorily enforced laws.
Consider, just as one example among many, Norwegian Penal Code §§ 135 & 135a:
Section 135. Any person who endangers the general peace by publicly insulting or provoking hatred of the Constitution or any public authority or by publicly stirring up one part of the population against another, or who aids and abets thereto, shall be liable to fines or to detention or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year.
Section 135 a. Any person who wilfully or through gross negligence publicly utters a discriminatory or hateful expression shall be liable to fines or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years…. The use of symbols shall also be deemed to be an expression….
A discriminatory or hateful expression here means threatening or insulting anyone, or inciting hatred or persecution of or contempt for anyone because of his or her (a) skin colour or national or ethnic origin, (b) religion or life stance, or (c) homosexuality, lifestyle or orientation.
These belong to the family of restrictions on "hate speech" and "incitement to hostility" that Europeans (and some Americans) sometimes praise as a model "reasonable" alternative to America's speech protections. But look how broad they are: If you "endanger[] the general peace" by "publicly stirring up one part of the population against another," you can go to prison. My reprinting the original Mohammed cartoons, for instance, would potentially be a crime.
Now many Muslims are offended enough by the cartoons on their own—but at least in America we can tell them to join the club: American Christians have no legal protection from anti-Christian speech, American Jews have none from anti-Semitic speech, American blacks have none from racist speech, Americans generally have none from anti-American speech. What can Norwegians tell them, other than
- "Sorry, the laws don't protect you,"
- "Okay, we'll enforce the laws to suppress speech that you perceive as insulting," or
- "These are bad laws, we're glad that they've rarely been used, we're sorry they were ever enacted, and we are going to repeal them right away"?
(Option (c) is my preferred suggestion, though not one likely to be implemented, and one that would still be understandably offensive to many Muslims, since the laws' repeal would have been triggered by speech that's offensive to Muslims.)
[3.] And of course censorship envy is such matters is hardly limited to Muslims. Consider this 2008 Daily Mail (UK) story:
A leading art gallery is being taken to court over claims that it outraged public decency by displaying a statue depicting Christ with an erection…
A private prosecution has now been launched … [claiming] that the gallery has both offended public decency and breached Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986.
The maximum penalty for outraging public decency is six months' imprisonment and a £5,000 fine.
The documents claim that the foot-high sculpture was 'offensive and disgusting' and 'likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to Christians and those of other faiths'….
The prosecution has been launched by Emily Mapfuwa, 40, an NHS administrator from Brentwood, Essex, who read about the exhibition in newspapers. 'I don't think this gallery would insult Muslims in this way, so why Christians?' she said….
I think this is pretty vulgar stuff, but should clearly be protected against legal punishment. It would be in the United States, and it ought to be in other democracies—religions and religious figures are proper subjects for debate and commentary, both rational verbal debate and commentary, and the subtle commentary that can be offered by art.
I also think the Supreme Court was right in Cohen v. California (1971) to reject the argument that some commentary (in that case, wearing a jacket saying "Fuck the Draft") can be barred with no free speech problems on the grounds that it's vulgar, or offensive because of its form rather than its content: There are no legally administrable lines—at least of the sort that are likely to survive pressure for expansion—that would distinguish impermissibly vulgar criticism from permissible criticism.
[T]he principle contended for by the State seems inherently boundless. How is one to distinguish this from any other offensive word? Surely the State has no right to cleanse public debate to the point where it is grammatically palatable to the most squeamish among us. Yet no readily ascertainable general principle exists for stopping short of that result were we to affirm the judgment below. For, while the particular four-letter word being litigated here is perhaps more distasteful than most others of its genre, it is nevertheless often true that one man's vulgarity is another's lyric. Indeed, we think it is largely because governmental officials cannot make principled distinctions in this area that the Constitution leaves matters of taste and style so largely to the individual.
Fortunately, as best I can tell, English courts rejected the complaint. (Whatever one might say about the propriety of huge discretionary grants going to galleries that include offensive speech, the issue here is criminal punishment, not withdrawal of discretionary funds.)
And the incident helps illustrate the force of censorship envy. When speech hostile or insulting towards one religion or symbol is suppressed by government action (as has been urged by many in Europe and Canada with regard to the Muhammad cartoons), or by self-censorship in the face of threatened violence, what happens when other groups are similarly offended? Their sense of outrage—and of entitlement to similar suppressive power—is increased, because they are now outraged by the perceived unequal treatment as well as by the original offense.
So again either
- the other speech will be suppressed, too, or
- the other speech won't be suppressed, in which case the offended groups will become even more offended—and so an attempt to prevent offense and maintain social harmony (which is how the original restriction is often justified) will have exacerbated offense and reduced social harmony.
(This is an update of an argument I've made before, but that seemed worth repeating.)
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Who was Prof. Volokh envying when he banned Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland?
He never banned you. You are the most ignorant, hate filled and loathed poster perhaps in the history of the internet. Understand, everyone of all political persuasions on this board hates your guts. That you have been allowed to post your drivel for so long shows a remarkable commitment to free speech on Volkh's part to put it mildly.
Speak for yourself. I find the Rev highly entertaining
Prof. Volokh not only acknowledged that he banned Artie Ray (and censored me repeatedly) . . . he boasted about it.
Other than that, though, great comment!
What I don't understand is how permitting someone to post under a different user name, when everyone knows it is the same person, constitutes banning...
Oh, and Kirkland: ******
1. I agree with the censorship envy observation. I would in fact call it generalizable to most government restrictions - you see something you think out of bounds for government to do, and it benefits those you oppose, many take that as a cue to discard their principles in favor of getting a bite at that apple.
Something here about fairness trumping legitimacy.
2. I also agree that Europe has made some bad choices regarding ideological restrictions. It's not like going there is living in a police state - this honestly doesn't seem to affect the everyday person - but I do feel no small part of national pride that we have more faith in our populous.
3. While I think this creates an easy roadmap for direct government regulation of speech, we see issues pop up with government-as-employer, government contracting choices, as well as 'free speech culture' questions about how much public opprobrium to attach to private choices.
In such cases, it is hard to avoid some kind of line-drawing, because there is discretion in decision-making, and at that point values inevitably get a play. No institution can be purely value neutral, nor do most folks want them to be, with the exception of some of the more...rarified libertarians.
This gives rise to 2 questions - what associative choices are legitimate procedurally (see: freedom of association and discrimination), and line drawing about which viewpoints are legitimate to have consequences due to large business or public associative choices. Note that legitimacy here is basically an opinion and worth about as much - neither question is amenable to legal bright line drawing; we are in the realm of discretion after all. But there can be some factual elements each of us as moral individuals can and should pay attention to, both as to procedure and substantive viewpoint.
On the procedural side, the creep caused by this censorship envy is something to think about, and should mitigate towards broad viewpoint tolerance. But I don't think it means you can go into these edge cases of government associative choices and go full libertarian; it's just not viable given humans.
" I also agree that Europe has made some bad choices regarding ideological restrictions. It’s not like going there is living in a police state – this honestly doesn’t seem to affect the everyday person..."
I guess it depends on what your views are. If you're in jail for violating their "ideological restrictions", it probably feels like a police state.
I agree: It doesn't look like a police state to the people the police aren't going after, but isn't that universally true?
Yup. Even actual police states don't feel like police states to many people.
Even actual police states don’t feel like police states to many people.
This devalues the term police state.
Police state usually refers to stuff like Nazi Germany and East Berlin and Pinochet's Chile. Where it does touch everyone's lives.
You're remaking words.
But it never touches everyone's lives, Sarcastr0. Or at least, until police states could be automated, it couldn't, because they simply didn't have the resources to touch everyone's lives.
Chilling effects and fear are things that exist. That's why you make the police secret - no one is safe, so everyone is touched.
There are interviews with people who were in East Germany, and in Nazi Germany, and the USSR, and North Korea.
Someone I know, who spent most of their life in USSR, once told someone in my presence that "USSR was a normal country!"
I guess it depends on what your views are.
Without specifying the views, natch.
If you are finding Europe to be a police state to you due to your views...a place where skinheads are alive and well...I would suspect your views are the 'you know the ones' type.
There are cases that make me feel smug to be an America, to be sure, and I know that America's race issues are nothing compared to Europe's, they're just not as willing to talk about it.
But cut the drama; is not a police state.
UK mother arrested and locked in a cell after calling a transgender woman a man on Twitter
Ah, but she was probably a skinhead.
Street preacher arrested for 'misgendering' to appeal sentence
Him, too. Referring to guys as "him" is typical skinhead behavior, after all.
"There are cases that make me feel smug to be an America, to be sure."
If this is what it takes to make a police state, *every country* including America is a police state.
Oh, really? Are we jailing people for 'misgendering' now? If so, I'll agree that we HAVE become a police state. I've been saying for years that we've been collecting the pieces of one, and it was only a matter of time before somebody put them together and fired that sucker up.
Your threshold is spurious arrests based on speech.
America certainly has no shortage of that, as this very blog has shown.
You have set your bar so low it's useless, and now you're unhappy about that.
Spurious? That suggests that either it didn’t happen, or that charges were dropped after being made. I see no indication either of these happened; just why do you call the “correct” execution by the police of authoritarian political policy “spurious”?
Here on the VC, you see arrests for filming the police, for protected campus speech, for overbroad online harassment statutes, off the top of my head.
I guess that makes us a police state.
Apparently convicted, then reversed on appeal.
...
Appeals court decision.
(ISTM that the arrest and initial conviction make British free speech protections look pretty bad)
"If you are finding Europe to be a police state to you due to your views…a place where skinheads are alive and well…I would suspect your views are the ‘you know the ones’ type."
So it's OK for Europe to be a police state for people with "‘you know the ones’ type." views?
First they came for the people with the "‘you know the ones’ type." views...
There is a lot of middle ground between 'everything Europe does is OK' and 'Europe is a police state.'
And your Nazi comparison is just a fucking incredible play.
And they crossed that middle ground some time ago. You're just waiting for "then they came for me" before you'll call it.
"There is a lot of middle ground between ‘everything Europe does is OK’ and ‘Europe is a police state.’"
As I said, if you're one of the people who wants to participate in one of the banned rallies, or are in jail for expressing your views, then it's a police state as far as you're concerned.
And you didn't refute that, but implied that it's OK for Europe to be a police state with respect to people you disagree with.
I'm not saying it's OK for Europe to be a police state, actually.
I'm saying police state is not defined on an individual basis. For obvious reasons.
But you've really got a strong strawman going now, ignoring my OP about how I like US speech policies more than Europe's.
Really bad show here.
Remember too that the US has *always* had free speech rights that Europe doesn't. For example, the British Official Secrets Act.
There is an even more pernicious effect: the path by which Google became evil.
If there is a government apparatus dedicated to censoring views and you are in the business of public advocacy, whatever your political orientation, then it is malpractice not to work to gain influence on that apparatus. Unfortunately, once you have created a group of people within your organization whose main expertise and value is their ability to influence the apparat, even if you initially set out merely to protect yourself from censorship, those people will have strong incentives to increase your entanglement with the government and to use that entanglement not merely to protect you, but to hinder your rivals. Overtime, the center of gravity of your organization will shift toward censorship, simply as a matter of personnel and incentives.
This is out of scope, since there are fundamental issues of fact. The right thinks things about twitter and Google persecuting them that many including myself believe to be utterly unsupported conspiracy theories.
Best to keep that out of this discussion and engage on another thread.
"The right thinks things about twitter and Google persecuting them that many including myself believe to be utterly unsupported conspiracy theories."
I wonder if you'd be so quick to conclude that if the people complaining weren't your ideological enemies?
Hypothetical double standards for skepticism how I know you have nothing.
It's also *incredibly* ironic coming from you.
It's odd that you thought this was a partisan point. It was a parallel example.
It has nothing to do with the question of favoring the left over the right. The problem is that once Google got entangled with the government, the incentives and the benefits of becoming further in tangled were inescapable. For Google, that entanglement came in the nexus of tech regulation and anti-trust.
My point was that in a country where there is a censorship regime, however well-meaning, public advocacy organizations would face similar internal and external pressures to cosy up to and then employ that censorship authority against their opponents. The availability of censorship creates demand for further censorship, just as the availability of favorable regulation creates demand for further regulation.
Maybe next time not such a hair trigger on defensiveness about partisanship. It caused you to misread my entire post.
Many of the campus demonstrations are being run by official student organizations, which receive office space, web space, and money from tuition and student fees. If you are leading demonstrations which call for genocide, you should not be getting funded by the university. Speak all you want, but the U and other students have no reason to pay for you to do it.
Ann, the worst part of this is that the money and space is supposed to be used to benefit all students — and isn’t. Last I checked, over half of the UMass Amherst SATF budget went to groups that explicitly identified (in their names) on the basis of race or religion. And none were “White Christian” groups.
See the Southworth decision: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/529/217/
What that came down nearly a quarter century ago, those of us in the Student Affairs field felt that there would almost inevitably be a Southworth 2 decision soon to follow because O’Connor’s decision presumed (a) that mandatory fee money was unlimited and (b) that it would be distributed in a content neutral manner. Neither is true.
So maybe it is now time for a Southworth2 — for Jewish (and Christian) students to sue on the grounds that their rights under Southworth are being violated because they’re not being given an equal chunk of resources, including administrators hired because they support their views.
And the other thing is if you aren’t an American, if you CHOOSE to come to this country, don’t badmouth it. Stay where you were if you hate this country so much….
I’m pretty sure public university-supported student groups are considered limited public forums. While there is no obligation to fund the groups, the First Amendment requires a denial to be viewpoint neutral.
Josh, this is why I am arguing for someone to bring Southworth 2.
It is SUPPOSED TO BE viewpoint neutral but it absolutely isn't.
Read the Southworth decision, cited above.
I don't think you are calling for a new doctrine, but instead are claiming universities aren't funding groups in a viewpoint neutral matter and thus are violating current doctrine.
Whether your claim is true or not is to be made on a case-by case basis.
American Christians have no legal protection from anti-Christian speech, American Jews have none from anti-Semitic speech,
This is totally untrue. It is called "hostile work environment". They may not have complete protection, but they have a lot of it. Hostile work environment makes it effectively illegal for an employer to allow such speech in the workplace.
"Hostile work environment makes it effectively illegal for an employer to allow such speech in the workplace."
Isn't there a diversity-training excception?
I never really understood censorship. I want to know what’s in my food, what’s in my water, what’s in my enemies heart, and I want it all to be clearly labeled on the package, preferably with an “I’m a dumbfuck Jew hater” tattoo on the face.
Censorship is a tactic for people who find themselves in a position of power, but who don't think their own positions would actually win in a genuinely free debate. So they try to use that power to prevent that debate.
It's basically always a sign of a lack of confidence in your own power to persuade people you're right.
Any comment, Prof. Volokh?
Artie Ray is curious.
(You could take a step in the right direction by rescinding the censorship. Never too late for personal improvement!)
What censorship? We all see your comments. You are free to post any idiotic thing you like in this section.
Was "slack jaw" an important, provable point?
It (ostensibly) offended the proprietor's "civility standards," unlike calls for liberals to be gassed, placed face-down in landfills, shot in the face at front doors, raped, sent to Zyklon showers, exterminated, pushed through woodchippers, and the like -- or racial slurs, homophobic slurs, xenophobic slurs, misogynistic slurs, transphobic slurs, antisemitic slurs, Islamophobic slurs, etc. -- all of which are welcome and regularly published at this blog.
I thought the proprietors simply gave up on censoring comments many years back (except illegal content, I suppose).
When was the last time you got censored - I mean the year?
I don’t have access to that information at the moment if I remember tomorrow I will check.
I have asked the proprietor to free Artie Ray. I have asked him to lift the bans on certain words. Repeatedly. He has not done so.
Artie Ray was censored yesterday, is censored today, likely will be censored tomorrow.
"lack of confidence"- >Or simple intellectual laziness, but essentially I agree.
No Brett, the easiest way to understand this is in the context of my Puritan forebears.
The Puritans honestly believed that the Devil was literally in every shadow and behind every tree in the forest, looking for a soul to steal. Hence they needed to protect the public from itself, not let it become corrupted via Satan's efforts. Hence things like 272 MGL 36, the Blasphemy statute, still on the books today. See: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter272/Section36
Critical Race Theory holds a similar view but in a different context, it believes that humanity is naturally racist and if racist speech isn't censored, then people will become racist. Neither they nor the Puritans really answered the question of what about the person who mouths the mantra but doesn't believe it...
It's way more complicated than this (as was Puritan theology) but I understand CRT as a religion like the Puritan faith, and hence their demands of censorship do make sense -- in the context of they having religious views which are not objectively provable. The word ****** thus is not a racial slur but blasphemy and must be dealt with such lest the Devil come in and start grabbing souls.
It's a different form of insecurity -- not unlike banning outdoor burning in red flag weather because you are afraid the fires will get out of hand and become uncontrollable. They seek to ban the word ****** because they feel that if they don't, racism will get out of control and become unstoppable, like a forest fire.
That's not contradicting me. If the Puritans had thought Satan utterly unpersuasive, they wouldn't have been so afraid. People tolerate wrongthink they don't worry will persuade.
"Critical Race Theory holds a similar view but in a different context, it believes that humanity is naturally racist and if racist speech isn’t censored, then people will become racist."
Exactly: They think their own views can't win a free debate.
Neither they nor the Puritan would ever permit their views to BE debated.
Yes, there may be an inherent fear of losing the debate, but there is a greater fear of losing souls in the process. Read _Words that Wound_ -- the fear is that merely permitting things to be spoken will cause third parties to believe them -- they don't even believe in the concept of a debate.
At the risk of people believing that you actually believe such arguments, I think it would be fun to argue that Jim Crow was a good thing or that Hitler was a nice guy simply because it forces you to go beyond the mantra of "bad, evil, bad, bad, very evil." I believe (hope, pray) that if I ever defended the Holocaust as being a good thing, people would start asking questions that I wouldn't be able to answer. They don't.
It may be a distinction without a difference, but where we have no doubt that we'd win any fair debate -- Milton's _Areopagitica_ and the rest -- they fear even *having* a debate. It's more of an irrational fear than basic insecurity.
A Black UM undergrad once told me that he thought that the White students would kill every Black student on campus if they could. I looked him right in the eye and asked "as opposed to drinking beer and chasing girls?" It gave me insight into some of his Black peers, who well might have done the converse if they could have...
And some of the stuff about Israel and Jews got into actual paranoia. The Jewish Space Laser is humors, but there was no shortage of actual paranoia. Outright paranoia, not antisemitism but textbook paranoia.
Bellmore, almost everything almost everyone thinks they know about the Puritans was made up in the 19th century by people who knew nothing about the Puritans.
No.
Censorship is much older than Christianity. The Censorship was an elected magisterial position in ancient Rome responsible for, among other things, supervision of moral conduct.
But I doubt Romans invented censorship, either. Censorship was probably invented the day after Nathan Neanderthal drew dick pics and boobs on a cave wall and then bitched about the division of Mastodon meat.
Roman censorship was different -- I remember enough of my Classical history to know that but not to explain it.
Yes, it is the root of the word, but like "decimate", it has a different meaning in today's English.
Ah, yes, now I see your point, the Romans were fans of free speech.
I doubt they were, but they did call the guy in charge of the "census" the "censor".
However... The Censor was in charge of determining who was a citizen, and in Rome it was very important to be a citizen. And they could denaturalize you on the basis of violation of public morals, which, yes, included what you said or wrote.
So they had some censorship adjacent powers in the modern sense of the word, too. But only as a tangential aspect of the job.
"equality of repression"
That's a great phrase! As Sarc[1] points out, it's not free speech limited. If you ban AR's in the name of public safety, why not muscle cars or booze or pit bulls or ...
"Section 135. Any person who endangers the general peace by publicly insulting ... any public authority..."
That would seem to outlaw saying 'the prime minister is an ignorant buffoon'. Hopefully the case law has a really restrictive reading of 'endangers the general peace'???
[1]do you mean 'populace', not 'populous'? Not trying to nitpick, just have seen you use it repeatedly, and if it's not an autocomplete error, it doesn't seem to make sense
IIRC, a couple of years ago he mentioned using speech-to-text. If that's true, apparently the tool doesn't do or isn't particularly good at contextual grammar sanity checking to improve accuracy on homophones like this (and apparently he doesn't proof the output much).
The "censorship envy" argument is persuasive only in contexts where there is broad agreement among people holding different viewpoints that the "shoe" could at some point be on "the other foot." When that is not the case, the argument is less persuasive - especially where some form of "censorship" is paired with attempts to ensure that holders of disfavored points of view never have the power to repeal that censorship.
Take, for example, a ban on virtual child porn. Setting aside that such content is at least somewhat protected under the First Amendment, I don't think that it would be persuasive to many people to say that, "If you ban virtual child porn, other people may deem fit to ban other forms of porn." People just wouldn't buy that slippery-slope argument; they'd expect that there is a solid consensus behind banning virtual child porn, while there is more dissensus on banning porn more generally, so they wouldn't worry that banning one might impact the other. By the same token, if you were to try to ban something like "porn depicting sex without a condom," you would find more disagreement, and a correspondingly greater agreement that banning one kind of sexually explicit content could open the door to banning other kinds of sexually explicit content that people may think should be permitted (e.g., porn depicting simulated torture or death, porn depicting other risky sexual practices, porn playing on racial stereotypes, etc.).
As another example, we can look at current efforts in Israel to further constrain expression of sympathy or support for Palestinians in Gaza. Some Israelis may oppose such measures (in particular, those whose speech is being criminalized), but these efforts are making progress because those pushing them never really think that the tables will be turned on them. The Israeli political system is expressly designed to prevent that from ever happening, and Netanyahu's current proposed reforms of the judiciary would further entrench that institutional power.
So what you end up saying, Eugene, is that "censorship envy" is a risk at least in those political systems or public discourses where public opinion is more or less evenly divided and political power is always subject to contest. But it will be less salient in contexts where we actually most need it to be, when there are viewpoints that are broadly unpopular but still deserving of protection, and popular consensus is in favor of banning the viewpoints.
Consider, as an additional example, the slogan "From the river to the sea..." There is broad agreement that this is just a pro-Hamas slogan, to such an extent that any person uttering it in protest of the war in Gaza is presumed to be a terrorist sympathizer. This, in turn, forms the basis of support for expulsions, firings, and (possibly) criminal prosecution. While your argument about "censorship envy" may be persuasive for Israel supporters, in the abstract, when talking about pro-Palestinian sentiment, I think it will be far less persuasive when it comes to statements that Israel supporters would confidently characterize as tantamount to material support for terrorism.
No, there is not broad agreement it is just some generic pro-Hamas statement (though, seriously, PRO-Hamas? How fucked up are progressives?) It is an thoroughly anti-Jewish statement (and that so many pro-Hamas "protesters" have such nice things to say about Hitler is odd, no?) and needs to be referred to as such.
Just because you AGREE with them does not make them not bigoted.
Thank you for helping to prove my point.
Honestly, it's amazing to me that there are people here who will read a lengthy comment like mine but who are intellectually unable to respond to it without frothing at the mouth.
Aww, you call anybody who thinks you're wrong "Frothing at the mouth".
Must be tons of "frothing in the mouth" types in your everyday life.
If you read my comment as "frothing at the mouth", that's a you problem.
Nothing you’ve said is, in fact, in disagreement with anything I’ve said. You just wanted to shout something about whether a statement is more accurately described as “pro-Hamas” or as “anti-Israel,” which is just a pointless digression.
I describe your comment as “frothing” because you engaged in smears, used all-caps for emphasis, and made a largely emotional point that’s irrelevant to my own comment. It wasn’t, at any rate, an attempt at reasonable debate.
I specifically did. "From the River To the Sea" is an inherently anti-Semitic chant. You say it is in dispute because you agree with it.
The point I was making, in my original comment, was that broad consensus on how that phrase is to be interpreted means that people like you are unlikely to view banning it as likely to prompt "censorship envy."
The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and I suspect Israel would say the same thing about its founding documents.
Israel is at war -- it was not only attacked but on the basis of population, this would be the same thing as 20 September 11ths.
Free speech is not always possible in wartime. Look at what Woodrow Wilson did during WWI and what Lincoln did in Maryland (never in rebellion) during the Civil War -- including throwing a good chunk of the legislature in jail. Roger Taney wrote in his diary that he thought he was going to jail as well.
It is always a little amusing to me when the little inflammatory nuggets I toss into comments on other topics catch fire in the imagination of the commentariat. You all practically tackle each other for the opportunity to demonstrate your stupidity first.
Yes, but Wilson, and even Lincoln, were committing appalling breaches of civil liberties. Wilson wasn’t even concerned about treason. He just didn’t want anybody arguing against his war.
The fact that past American presidents, or even Israel now, violate free speech protections during wartime doesn’t make it right. It is yet another remember that war is ugly and it makes otherwise sensible people do ugly things. Even, or perhaps especially, if it’s necessary.
Regarding "From the river to the sea..." do you think that Palestinians and their allies would consider it just a pro Israeli slogan if Israelis were chanting "Israel from the river to the sea..."?
More "Moslem-free from the river to the sea" because that is what everyone knows would happen if the "Palestinians" ever assumed power. Arabs are actually freer in Israel than they are in many other countries in the area --- yet a Jew in Gaza would have a very short life expectancy.
That isn't the question. The question is, if people generally take the view that "From the river to the sea..." is a pro-Hamas and so pro-terrorist slogan - and so something we should be able to ban, or at least impose significant social penalties for uttering - are they likely to be open to the objection that, if you ban that slogan, you are opening them up to similar penalties, if they were to utter a pro-Israel "From the river to the sea..." slogan?
It's worth remembering, for present purposes, that Israeli politicians and settler groups have been talking about pushing the remaining Palestinians out of the Occupied Territories for years now, with varying degrees of openness.
I don't think it should be banned but I'm not against "significant social penalties" for either side using it.
And while you say that my question isn't the question I do think that it is part of the question. You can't get a real answer to your question unless you look at both sides.
If I agree with the opinion that censorship envy is real (and I do), what should be my response to those who are "outraged by the perceived unequal treatment as well as by the original offense"? I agree that the three cited hypothetical Norwegian responses, along with the caveat, are applicable, both in the context of free speech rights and in the broader concept of rights generally. But what if those who initiated the censorship -- be they now an actual majority or an powerfully-armed minority -- do not desire change? What is the morally appropriate recourse or, more specifically, was the recourse selected long ago here in the US morally correct?
OK, let’s have a “Fuck Allah” rally. How do you think that would play out? Or someone proclaiming that “the woman’s place is in the house” where she should be “barefoot & pregnant.”
My disagreement with EV is, respectfully, he either was a student late enough and/or went to still-sane enough institutions that he believes that there is a content neutral forum in academia. He hasn’t lived in a dormitory where Hamas was working security at the front door. He hasn’t had to say “you will pry these Christmas lights from my cold, dead fingers” — Christmas lights somehow being offensive to Islam. And he hasn’t seen the lives of undergrads ruined because they turned insults around and parodied them, in private.
So let’s propose having a “Fuck Allah” rally and see how it plays out. And if you’re still alive afterwards, *then* we can talk about defending the free speech of the Hamas Fan Club. But until then, I have no problem saying that they should be silenced as well.
In yesterday's making-stuff-up-about-elevators thread, Dr Ed had the chutzpah to say he doesn't make stuff up.
I am making a distinction that Professor Volokh doesn’t seem to be basing his argument on, and may not acknowledge.
Israel is foreign policy. Advocating the destruction of a foreign country is a foreign policy argument. It’s as open to argue the United States would be better off switching sides, allying with Hamas, and helping it wipe Israel off the map, as it’s open to argue the United States would be better off switching sides, allying with Russia, and helping it wipe Ukraine off the map. And in doing so, it’s as open to argue that we should accept Hamas’ argument that Palestine needs to be liberated from genocidal Zionists as it’s open to argue that we should accept Putin’s argument “the” Ukraine needs to be liberated from Nazis who are committing atrocities against ethnic Russians.
(Aside: Putin’s arguments about the atrocities the Ukrainians allegedly committed against ethnic Russians, and for that matter the Nazis arguments in the 1930s about the atrocities the Czechs were committing against Sudeten Germans, all seem remarkably similar to Hamas’ current talking points. Whoever does this sort of propaganda seems to have a hard time coming up with anything original.)
But all this is different from threatening Americans, however Jewish (or Ukrainian) Americans may feel about it. So I see a big difference between pro-Hamas demonstrations on campus threats and intimidation of Jewish students. The second is not protected speech and needs to be punished, the first is speech.
Of course, neither Jews nor Ukrainians may recognize any such distinction. They may both feel equally subjectively threatened by both kinds of statements. But I think the law requires an objective inquiry based on a mythical “reasonable” person, and hence I think the law does, has to, recognize such a distinction.
I make two distinctions to this.
First, Hamas is a terrorist entity and hence isn't foreign policy. For example, as an American you can go to either Ukraine or Russia and join their army -- Americans are. It would be a different thing if you went and joined Hamas or ISIS.
Second, I don't think that non-citizens, who are here as guests (student visas) should be involved in US Foreign Policy. If that means that I am advocating restricting their First Amendment rights, well maybe I am -- the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
On your second point, the textual Constitution is actually pretty clear. “The right of the People peacably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Not part of the people, no right to assemble or petition, same as no right to own a firearm.
But Professor Volokh’s argument doesn’t make this distinction, and your point doesn’t apply to citizens.
This lines up with my take as well, although I would add free-speech protections should not extend to protections from social consequences.
Making a distinction in the other direction, I would argue that the problem with cancel culture wasn't that there aren't statements for which somebody should be canceled. "From the river to the sea" falls quite neatly in that category. The problem was that there was (is) a group of political fanatics competing with each other for who had the most delicate sensibilities and who could punish the most minor infraction the most harshly.
So: punish the threats and the riots, ostracize the people calling for genocide, and let everyone else debate.
Demanding single standards instead of double standards isn’t "censorship envy".
Demanding a single class of people that includes everyone instead of special people who get catered to and second class people (a. k. a. "alies" or "deplorables" in the US) who only owe obligations to the special people isn’t "censorship envy".
Orwell put it best in Animal Farm — some animals are more equal than others. Grrrrr......
The law for controlling offensive speech could be simple: we should merely ban all words having the offensive number of letters. Doing so would eliminate large numbers of offensive words in our language, and would impose no difficulty at all on readers and a minimal inconvenience on writers. One could readily write substantial paragraphs without any use of inappropriate-length words. Additional thought might be required of the writer, but requiring the writer to pay careful attention to the words being written might improve the overall quality of the material. Paraphrasing Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels: whether or not contractions and possessive forms are included, and whether it would be necessary to restrict acronyms and numbers of undesirable digit lengths, can be deferred to every person's conscience, or at least in the power of the chief magistrate to determine. Of course, utilization of alternate spellings or phrasings presents an additional concern; perhaps it eventually should be necessary to restrict additional lengths. Subsequently, writing or reading difficulty likely increase. However, increased civility is doubtless valued higher. In conclusion, we should create appropriate statutes as quickly as possible.
At one point, UMass Amherst once proposed a list of banned words -- a literal list of words that would not be permitted on campus. It failed because every time they thought that the list was finished, someone would come up with a few more words that needed to be added.
My response was simple. (There were 5,500 students in the Southwest Residential Area, which is about 4/5 an acre.) You are going to give each one of them a list of words, tell them never to say them -- and not expect to hear the list read out of tower windows at 2AM?
Look at this from the standpoint of a university which *already* has an extensive censorship system, basically in one direction. This censorship is accompanied by justifying language about speech causing harm, and how hate speech isn’t free speech.
Now we have students who are happy to censor others, while uttering Jew-baiting statements with the expectation that they won’t be punished – after all, they didn’t call Bruce Jenner a man, did they?
Forcing them to “live by their own book of rules” (to paraphrase Saul Alinsky) would be a very healthy development. Suggest they be censored for doing verbal harm to Jewish students, and that they antisemitic speech isn't free speech.
If they play by their own rules, they'll have to be censored.
If these students don’t like how Jewish alumni, etc. are using their own rationales and rules against them, then maybe they'll scramble to protect themselves by invoking free speech. Then let them know that unless they’re for free speech all down the line, they themselves won’t benefit from it. If they persist in wanting to censor others, censor them likewise.
You make a good argument for why one should not institute censorship. But if censorship already exists, why should one side unilaterally disarm? Why shouldn’t they try to get their piece of the pie?