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Old gun controls that were constitutionally repealed are not precedents for modern gun control
Amicus brief in Supreme Court's Second Amendment Rahimi case
This week amicus briefs were filed in United States v. Rahimi, the only Second Amendment merits case currently before the Supreme Court. The docket page for the case is here. I will be blogging later about various briefs in the case. This post describes the amicus brief that I filed, available here.
The case involves the constitutionality of 18 U.S.C. sect. 922(g)(8), which imposes a federal prison sentence of up to 15 for persons who possess a firearm while subject to certain state-issued restraining orders. The amici are several law professors, including the VC's Randy Barnett, the Second Amendment Law Center, and the Independence Institute, where I am Research Director. My co-counsel on the brief was Konstandinos T. Moros, of the Michel & Associates law firm, in Long Beach, California.
The bottom line of the brief is that subsection 922(g)(8(C)(i) does not infringe the Second Amendment; it restricts the arms rights of individuals who have been found by a judge to be a "credible threat" to others. In contrast, subsection 922(g)(8(C)(ii) does infringe the Second Amendment, because it does not require any such judicial finding. The brief addresses the question of "who" may be restricted in the exercise of Second Amendment rights; the brief takes no position on questions of "how"--such as what due process is required, or whether the severity of 922(g)(8) ban is comparable to historic laws restricting the exercise of arms rights.
The main purpose of the brief is to describe what sorts of historic laws can serve as precedents or analogues for modern gun control laws. The brief agrees with the Solicitor General that modern laws against persons who have been proven to be dangerous are supported by the common law and by historic statutes against persons who carried arms to terrorize the public or threatening to breach the peace.
However, several amici in support of the Solicitor General, as well as the Department of Justice in cases in lower courts, also rely on old laws based on invidious discrimination--such as against Catholics, slaves, free people of color, and so on. The modern attorneys who cite old discriminatory statutes as precedents in favor of gun control always make a disclaimer that they don't agree with the old laws, but the attorneys then claim that these laws still guide the current meaning of the right to keep and bear arms.
The amicus brief explains the error of such thinking. Arms rights discrimination has been obliterated by constitutional enactments. It is the constitutional enactments that define our constitutional right to arms. The right is not defined by the old abuses that the constitutional enactments were designed to stop:
As legal historian Sir Henry Maine observed, "the movement of the progressive societies has hitherto been a movement from Status to Contract." Henry Maine, Ancient Law 182 (1861). Similarly, the progress of the right to arms has been constitutional enactments to repudiate unjust exclusions.
Here is the Summary of Argument:
This brief addresses "who" may be deprived of the right to arms. Some lower courts have had difficulty discerning lessons to draw from historical laws disarming various groups.
Constitutional enactments about the right to arms have added specificity to the right. When a constitutional enactment forbids depriving a particular group of the right to arms, the prior laws targeting that group are repudiated as legitimate precedents from which modern gun control analogies may be drawn.
The 1689 English Bill of Rights, which is part of the British Constitution and was applicable in America, repudiated deprivation of arms rights because of peaceful political disagreement or because of adherence to a Protestant denomination that was not the established Church of England. The 1689 enactment allowed some restrictions based on economic or social class, and did not protect non-Protestants.
The 1788 United States Constitution rejected arms restrictions for persons whose religious scruples did not allow them to "swear" an "oath."
The 1791 Second Amendment rejected arms rights limitations based on religion or class/income. Therefore, the short-lived 1756 anti-Catholic laws in two colonies have no validity as post-1791 precedents for limitations on Second Amendment rights.
The 1865 Thirteenth Amendment abolished all the "badges and incidents" of slavery. Being disarmed is an incident of being enslaved. Hence, the Thirteenth Amendment obliterated the precedential value of earlier statutes forbidding slaves to have arms or allowing possession only with a discretionary license.
All four clauses of section one of the 1868 Fourteenth Amendment finished the work. Prior statutes imposing arms restrictions on free people of color were thereafter negated as precedents for arms restrictions.
During the American Revolution, some "Loyalists" still considered themselves "subjects of the King of Great Britain," and not "the people of the United States." Textually, Second Amendment rights inhere only in "the people" of the United States.
Similarly, when the Constitution was ratified, Indians were members of foreign nations. Their relations with the United States were governed by treaties ratified by the Senate. Later, Indians became citizens of the United States, with the right to keep and bear arms. The colonial and Early Republic arms laws about Indians who were members of other nations are valid precedents today for arms laws applying to citizens of foreign nations.
The precedents about members of foreign nations are not useful here, because Mr. Rahimi is a U.S. citizen, and hence one of the people of the United States.
However, as accurately catalogued in the Solicitor General's brief, there is ample original meaning precedent for limiting an individual's arms rights based on a judicial finding that the person poses a danger to others. Therefore, state statutes addressing the same subject as 18 U.S.C. §922(g)(8)(C)(i) can comply with the Second Amendment.
While subsection (C)(i) requires finding of "a credible threat," subsection (C)(ii) does not, and therefore is an infringement. The problem could be solved by changing a single word between §922(g)(8)(C)(i) and (ii): "or" to "and." Making (C)(i) and (C)(ii) conjunctive instead of disjunctive would remedy the infringement in (C)(ii).
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18 USC § 922(g)(8)(C) describes court orders including those that "prohibit[] the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury." (C)(ii)
I don't understand the purpose of this section. Isn't this just a prohibition against assault? Is there a gap that allows someone use or threaten physical force likely to cause bodily injury to a child or intimate partner without a restraining order? Is it meant to include otherwise legal corporal punishment against a child or remove the possibility of consent for an adult (if they're into kinky stuff, I guess)?
It a prohibition on firearms possession by anyone who has certain kinds of restraining orders against them.
Here's the full g8c:
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(8) who is subject to a court order that— .
(c) (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(c) (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury;
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
Right, but I don't understand the significance or necessity of a court order that explicitly prohibits someone from using physical force reasonably expected to cause bodily injury against specific people.
When are you allowed to do that in the absence of a court order prohibiting it? Does it prohibit otherwise legal means of physically disciplining a child? Does it remove the possibility of consent as a defense, as if you would normally get into amateur boxing matches with your wife?
Gotcha. It's intended for domestic violence situations. Reading through an example (below) I think it's intended as a "shortcut" for victims around the typical judicial process. Seems like if you've got a restraining order, and can show its been violated, its easier to get the person incarcerated (and police involved).
https://www.mass.gov/abuse-prevention-orders-for-defendants
BillyG seems to explain it. I view protective orders like this as warning a person that they have been credibly accused of victimizing someone in violation of the law. The order could be in place while the accusation is investigated further for possible prosecution or because the alleged victim is justified in fearing for their safety even if the evidence isn't sufficient for a conviction of a violent act or true threat. Thus, it is saying, "Stay away from this person that feels threatened by you, you'll end up in jail if you don't, and we'll come down on you like a ton of bricks if you actually hurt them."
It is certainly up for debate how much such orders can restrict a person's liberty, but that is the way I understand the purpose of these orders (before I read BillyG's link).
" I don’t understand the significance or necessity of a court order that explicitly prohibits someone from using physical force reasonably expected to cause bodily injury against specific people.
"When are you allowed to do that in the absence of a court order prohibiting it?"
A domestic order of protection brings into play enforcement mechanisms not applicable to criminal statutes in general. Orders of protection may be enforced by the issuing court's contempt power, which may provide for summary procedures not applicable to criminal proceedings generally. The beneficiary of an order of protection may herself initiate and prosecute enforcement proceedings, while substantive criminal prosecutions are maintained by the state. A state's statutes enabling orders of protection may grant law enforcement officers broader authority to arrest for violation of such an order than those otherwise applicable.
The 1788 United States Constitution rejected arms restrictions for persons whose religious scruples did not allow them to "swear" an "oath."
How so? What mentions of arms are there in the Constitution other than the 2nd Amendment? I only see the power of Congress to provide for arming the militias. The amici seem to be trying to extend the no religious test clause to something not even included in the 1788 Constitution.
I don't know how to respond to the rest of the list quoted here, because I can't tell what arguments they are replying to, or what specific earlier laws they are saying can't be used as precedent.
As to the general idea being argued, I have some things to ask. If laws and history during a time when discrimination was legally enforced should not be used in arguing for the constitutionality of restrictions on rights now, then how does that affect Dobbs? Women couldn't vote and had many other restrictions on their liberty when laws against abortion were first enacted. If Kopel is correct here, then shouldn't we be discarding the history of abortion restrictions prior to women gaining equal rights under the law as any sort of guide to whether and how states can restrict abortion now?
I don't see how because there's no post-equal protection or right-to-vote analogue for abortion. It has only ever affected women and involves more than any general right to bodily autonomy that a man could assert. It's not comparable to prohibiting firearm possession based on race alone.
I don’t see how because there’s no post-equal protection or right-to-vote analogue for abortion. It has only ever affected women and involves more than any general right to bodily autonomy that a man could assert. It’s not comparable to prohibiting firearm possession based on race alone.
That's really a large part of my point. I never got around to reading more than a few selected parts of Dobbs quoted in articles, but I was fairly certain that it relied in large part on the legal history prior women's suffrage (Including the legal history of abortion restrictions enacted around the same time or shortly after the 14th Amendment.)
Also, the only way in which abortion "involves more than any general right to bodily autonomy that a man could assert" is with an assumption of the embryo or fetus having a claim to a right to live. Separate that out and abortion is a greater restriction on bodily autonomy than even many things that cannot be imposed on all people. (You cannot be forced to donate body tissue, even to save someone's life. You cannot be forced to risk your own life to help someone else in danger, even if the risk is smaller than the risk of pregnancy.)
The degree to which a developing life in a pregnant woman has value varies a lot. Some people speak of believing that a fertilized egg is morally equal in value to a newborn, some think that equivalence happens later (such as "quickening" in 18th-19th century terms), and some will say it happens once it can survive and develop normally after delivery.
It varies most of all according to how much the woman wants to have a child. That is why anything from before women had gained equality under the law in fact, not just in theory, is not relevant to me in whether such a right to abortion exists under the Constitution.
Grimes, nothing today is comparable to the practices of firearms regulations during the founding era (and prior to the founding era) to which Kopel refers. Which makes Kopel's take in the OP incoherent.
Kopel's citation is almost hilariously discordant, when he writes this: "As legal historian Sir Henry Maine observed, "the movement of the progressive societies has hitherto been a movement from Status to Contract." Well, yeah, but that is a condemnation of the method insisted upon in Bruen, not a support for it. Status is something which is. Contract is something we decide to suit the parties. Kopel pays that no heed. It's pretty much the opposite of, "history and tradition," but so what?
For another example, Kopel is quick to seize on racial prohibitions since overturned, but he elides with barely a mention the massive customary role of prohibitions, legal inflections, and unequal expectations formerly associated with places of residence, social class, and even styles of life. In doing so, Kopel brushes aside as minor exceptions the fact that pre-founding-era British precedents in favor of arms liberties were, as a matter of customary expectations, totally unavailable to the vast majority of British subjects.
As a practical matter, that disparity was enormous. Not many people then enjoyed the status of English freemen. That was a society which often ruled (in its usual arbitrary style of dispersed legal control exercised by local notables and their appointed minions) that it was too dangerous to allow a wage worker free choice about where to live. General gun rights were so unthinkable that Kopel was unable from his cursory readings even to suspect what was actually going on.
And, as always in that general era—both in the U.S. and abroad—nationally systematized rules of the sort Kopel wants for the U.S. were non-existent. Variations in practices based on time and place were so pervasive that it takes a particularly present-minded kind of foolishness to suppose any reading of history and tradition can deliver useful guidance for a present-day system based on a nationally uniform system of enforcement. The actual history and tradition of arms regulation, in the U.S. (and elsewhere), lies all over the map, and varies through time.
Kopel is doing what gun advocates usually do when they pretend to analyze history. Occasion, relevance, context of creation for sources cited, and even considerations of time and place all go out the window. In their stead we get cherry picked generalizations that do not hold up under a historical approach which insists on analysis of all those factors.
Kopel defends a Supreme Court decision allegedly founded on, "history and tradition." I added the scare quotes to signify the absurdity of making that claim for Bruen's egregious historical reasoning. All that is par for the course among gun advocates, who show time and again that when maximalist pro-gun outcomes are at stake, they can't be bothered to take care about the accuracy of anything they claim.
Kopel is not a researcher constrained by any consideration of reputation, professional status, or legal responsibility. All he has to guard is his perch as a professional gun advocate. He says whatever it takes to keep that perch safe.
Flattering gun nuttery before Republican judges is a good gig -- for now.
I hope a right to possess a reasonable gun in the home for self-defense survives the predictable, beneficial mainstream backlash against gun nuts.
Technically that should include all Christians. Swearing is a prayer to God attempting to bind Him to cast you into Hell if you violate whatever it is, which would be bad if He exists.
This is putting God to the test, which you are explicitely instructed not to do, along with taking God's Name in vain.
It’s also iffy, as Job and the Parable of the Lost Son discuss how Yahweh makes up rule changes on the fly* as He sees fit.
* To our limited worldview, where things happen after other things.
Swearing is a prayer to God attempting to bind Him to cast you into Hell if you violate whatever it is, which would be bad if He exists.
Well, the way people actually behave compared to how theology would have them behave in theory doesn't match up as often as the religious would have us think they do.
Even if you are right that the precedental value is “obliterated” by subsequent enactments, it does not follow that the “historical” value of such laws are also null. Isn’t Bruen concerned with “history and tradition” rather than precedent?
Isn’t Bruen concerned with “history and tradition” rather than precedent?
Selectively.
“Selectively”
Evidently
Temporarily.
See you down the road a bit, clingers.
Yeah, you civil rights violators have been winning every time you get to SCOTUS haven't you. What are we up to in Constitutional Carry states now, twenty seven now isn't it?
How long do you expect a dwindling minority of half-educated bigots and superstitious hayseeds to maintain control of the Supreme Court in modern, improving America?
Gun nuts, misogynists, anti-abortion absolutists, religious kooks, racists, immigrant-haters, superstitious gay-bashers, and others who have tied their political wagons to the Clingerville Express should prepare for the consequences of losing a culture war in which they behaved badly.
Even if you are right that the precedental value is “obliterated” by subsequent enactments, it does not follow that the “historical” value of such laws are also null.
It depends on what sort of "historical value" you're referring to. Are laws that have been rendered unconstitutional of academic interest? Sure. Do they have value in supporting similar contemporary restrictions? Not so much. Of what value is the history and tradition of past racial segregation laws when it comes to determining the validity of a contemporary bit of legislation that does the same thing?
Isn’t Bruen concerned with “history and tradition” rather than precedent?
It's concerned with all three. And it's odd for you to be quoting "history and tradition" like that, given that the phrase appears only once in the Bruen decision, and even then only as a reference to part of the analysis used by the court in Heller.
“been rendered unconstitutional”
Again, even if I agree with this, it does not erase these enactments from “history and tradition.”
They happened. At one point, at least some of the examples cited by OP were considered constitutional. And also never ruled unconstitutional by the way. I don’t know how you can purport to analyze regulations in this context ignoring that history.
They happened, yes, but the whole point about the "history and tradition" reasoning is to find usable precedents. Precedents that have been overturned as unconstitutional (for whatever reason) are not usable.
Likewise, precedents that were based on completely different legal circumstances cannot be arbitrarily divorced from those circumstances and remain usable.
“overturned as unconstitutional“
But they weren’t. Not by a judge. The constitution was amended.
“Useable precedents”
Same question to you— what do Bruen and Heller have to say about the value of precedent? Can you point me to a passage?
Amending the constitution inherently overturns all prior contradictory laws. "Overturned" is not merely something done by a judge.
As precedental value, perhaps. But Bruen and Heller don’t talk about the value of precedent (much). Amendment doesn’t mean that the laws get memory-holed.
Think about what Kopel is saying: we have this new test that prioritizes history and tradition over precedent. In fact, we maybe shouldn’t think about precedent. Instead we should think about history and tradition. But also because these regulations are now bad precedents we can’t even think about them when doing our “history and tradition” test (whatever that means). It’s having it both ways. Does the existence of firearm regulations for people viewed as undesirable by society color our understanding of firearm regulations today of people under restraining orders for abusing people close to them? I’d love to see a “history and tradition” analysis of this by someone smarter than me— but I think that the kopel approach: saying that it is categorically improper to even consider these historical facts— is hypocritical and unconvincing. YMMV.
As precedental value, perhaps. But Bruen and Heller don’t talk about the value of precedent (much).
"A long, unbroken line of common-law precedent
stretching from Bracton to Blackstone is far more likely to
be part of our law than a short-lived, 14th-century English
practice."
That's only one example of several. Read the decision.
Amendment doesn’t mean that the laws get memory-holed.
And again, nobody said that's what it means. Your strawman isn't going to become a valid argument just because you keep repeating it.
Think about what Kopel is saying: we have this new test that prioritizes history and tradition over precedent. In fact, we maybe shouldn’t think about precedent. Instead we should think about history and tradition.
Are you reading skills really that piss-poor? Or are you being intentionally dishonest? That's not at all what Kopel is saying.
"The main purpose of the brief is to describe what sorts of historic laws can serve as precedents or analogues for modern gun control laws."
He's saying that SOME historic laws should not serve as precedents, for the reasons that have already been repeatedly explained to you...not that "we maybe shouldn’t think about precedent", or that "history and tradition" should serve as a complete replacement for precedent in general.
“already been repeatedly explained to you”
Just because you keep saying this does make it any more true. The precedents are historical facts. Including others, BTW, that Jason alludes to and the OP doesn’t address.
Does the undenied historical existence of gun control laws for people viewed as society as undesirable (EVEN IF the particular rationale for such laws in the cases mentioned by the OP is overturned [ie the 14th amendment]) color our understanding of gun control laws today for people under restraining orders for abusing family members or people close to them? How can you say the “historical understanding” cannot take these precedents into account. It’s cafeteria history.
"They happened. At one point, at least some of the examples cited by OP were considered constitutional. And also never ruled unconstitutional by the way. I don’t know how you can purport to analyze regulations in this context ignoring that history."
I may be wrong, but I think the point is that the existence of laws restricting gun possession by slaves do not do not bear on the meaning of the the Second Amendment because slaves had no Second Amendment rights. Thus, there could be no conflict.
Freedmen too?
I take your point, but I don't think it changes the issue. States denied the vote to Freedmen, and I don't think that the existence of those restrictions bears on the scope of the constitutional right to vote.
Again, even if I agree with this, it does not erase these enactments from “history and tradition.”
Did you actually read what you’re responding to? I never said they were erased from history and/or tradition. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And also never ruled unconstitutional by the way.
I didn’t say “ruled”. I said “rendered”. Again…try reading before responding.
You also completely ignored my point about your quoting of "history and tradition" with regard to Bruen.
And, why did you not answer my question? Here it is again:
"Of what value is the history and tradition of past racial segregation laws when it comes to determining the validity of a contemporary bit of legislation that does the same thing?"
“It’s concerned with all three.”
I’m also curious about what you think Bruen and Heller say about the value of precedent. Can you elaborate? Or point me to a passage?
I’m also curious about what you think Bruen and Heller say about the value of precedent.
I'm curious why you're tossing Heller in when the comment was strictly about Bruen. That said, Bruen mentions "precedent" (or "unprecedented") 14 times (as opposed to only one reference to "history and tradition", and even then only with regard to Heller. Try reading the decision.
“that the phrase appears only once in the Bruen decision, and even then only as a reference to part of the analysis used by the court in Heller.”
Is this a gotcha? How would you describe the test in shorthand?
“that the phrase appears only once in the Bruen decision, and even then only as a reference to part of the analysis used by the court in Heller.”
.
Is this a gotcha?
No, it’s me pointing out that it’s odd that you explicitly quote “history and tradition” regarding Bruen as though it was some sort of crucial phrase in the court’s decision, when it was no such thing. You do know what it means when you use quotation marks like that, don’t you?
You are misstating the test.
The test is "Text, informed by history and tradition"
The text of the Constitution has changed to forbid laws that discriminate on the basis of race. So sure those laws are regrettably part of our tradition history, but they no longer conform to the text of the Constitution.
Historically, we had lots of laws dealing with the proper handling of slaves.
The idea that gun control laws need to have historic roots is insane. There is no other part of the Bill of Rights that we apply that same standard to. Cartridge based semi-automatic weapons did not exist, and thus there is no way for them to have any regulations for them.
The idea that gun control laws need to have historic roots is insane. There is no other part of the Bill of Rights that we apply that same standard to.
4th and 5th amendment. Civil Asset Forfeiture and when Police do not need a warrant such as the "open fields doctrine".
Cartridge based semi-automatic weapons did not exist, and thus there is no way for them to have any regulations for them.
Neither did the internet, television, radio, or cellphones. There were regulations for weapons. Check those.
"There is no other part of the Bill of Rights that we apply that same standard to."
Untrue. The Confrontation Clause uses an express historical test. Just a few terms ago, the Supreme Court applied a historical test to the 4th Amendment. Same for the right to a unanimous jury. Indeed, the Court often looks to history when construing the Bill of Rights. Even substantive due process for unenumerated rights (sometimes) uses an historical test.
He may have been thinking more along the 1st Amendment, which has been increasing in power over the centuries.
I heartily approve of increasing the power of freedoms, sans amendments, because of changing attitudes. This is in keeping with the idea the people retain their rights. I do not support increasing government power sans amendment, as that is the exact opposite concept. The People get the honor of their rights. Government has no honor, and does not get to abridge them, new or old, without explicit approval of The People.
I would agree that the idea that "gun control laws need to have historic roots" is not ideal. It has, however, been made necessary to combat the decades of abuses by courts, prosecutors and legislators at all levels.
Agreed. I would have preferred a strict scrutiny type test similar to what is used for other constitutional safeguards.
The problem is that liberal judges will always find that reducing crime is a compelling state interest and that any law is "narrowly tailored," no matter how poorly tailored it is and no matter how tenuous the link between the regulation and reducing crime.
Thanks to the gun industry’s $cholar$hip, the Militia Clause has been erased. Not relevant. Surplusage. Does anyone here know that term? Any lawyer should.
Very much disagree. The problem is that many misinterpreted the Militia Clause as a limitation on the 2nd Amdt. Heller pointed out that it was a mere Prefatory Clause, pointing out one (of several) justification(s) for the Operative Clause. That putative limitation effectively eliminated self defense as protected under the 2nd Amdt. Which, of course was ludicrous, esp given the history of gun possession for self defense against both Indians and wildlife, in the 13 Colonies. Moreover, the Militia Clause was used to limit gun ownership from citizens by trying to limit its reach to officially sanctioned militias, despite the wording of the Declaration of Independence, and that the militias that started the Revolutionary War had been desanctioned by British Gen Gage, de facto governor of the MA colony.
That's a nice, relatively novel interpretation . . . if you can keep it.
Let me guess: once Old Joe is reelected, he packs the Supreme Court and voilà! -- the Second Amendment (again) means absolutely nothing. And all us "clingers" (to use your favorite expression) just sit around, patiently waiting for Old Joe's goons to confiscate our guns ... or round us up for saying something you & Old Joe don't like. (I mean, if the Second Amendment can be erased, why not the First too?)
Great plan, Arthur! Good luck with it!
I hope his plan ends up with him and his ilk in gas chambers.
A bullet would be both cheaper and more in keeping with enforcing the 2nd amendment than a gas chamber IMO.
These are your fans and target audience, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason you are no longer welcome on America's better campuses. Tenure will enable some of you to cling to positions longer than Prof. Volokh did, but I do not expect tenure to save many of you in the medium to long term.
You'll be welcome at Ave Maria, Liberty, Regent, South Texas, and a few other shitty schools, though.
Awww, feeling sensitive Rev?
Hayden, Heller was all advocacy. The notion that it featured anything like, "pointing out," is historically unsupportable.
No, it wasn't. It was discrediting the "collective right" theory which was always put forth in bad faith and was bogus on its face.
Hayden:
I give you credit for a serious answer on this issue. Usually I don't get one.
Though I still disagree. It was not one of several justifications, it was the only one given. In contract language it was a “recital”, which expresses the purpose of the contract, in case there is doubt.
“The building having to be built by December 1, contractor will have free entrance to the site”, means that the contract does not extend to the contractor the right to enter the site on December 15.
I give you credit for a serious answer on this issue. Usually I don’t get one.
When your commentary consists of stupid tropes like...
Thanks to the gun industry’s $cholar$hip, the Militia Clause has been erased.
...taking you seriously is impossible.
Which, of course was ludicrous, esp given the history of gun possession for self defense against both Indians and wildlife, in the 13 Colonies.
Hayden, history does not work that way. Not everything which happened is justification for everything else. If self-defense with guns was a feature in some founding era state-constitutions—as it was—that is not historical evidence in the slightest that it was also an intended feature in the federal constitution. And in fact it was not, as both the language of the 2A, and the historical record, make clear.
Surplusage? Useful word. Without surplusage how could we maintain a Volokh comment thread.
Are you kidding?
Transgender parenting case.
Racial slur.
Muslim issue.
Transgender restroom dispute.
Drag queen debate.
White grievance appeal.
Another racial slur.
Lesbian anything.
Black crime report.
Transgender sorority drama.
And, of course . . . another racial slur!
Carry on, clingers.
I would have to disagree that disarming people for using arms to terrorize serves as precedent for *any* kind of threat. Undoubtedly in history people threatened others in ways besides with arms, so laws singling out those who used arms for disarmament shows quite the opposite, that the right to bear arms was considered protected enough you had to abuse the right itself in an unlawful manner.
And don't get me started on ex parte orders serving as adequate process for deprivation of core rights... really? Just going to skip the whole idea of an adversarial system and strip rights on unchallenged accusation by someone who's not even a cop and has personal motivation?
If SCOTUS upholds the validity of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8) despite Bruen and Heller, perhaps a future defendant charged under that subsection could make a claim that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act bars criminal conviction.
Suppose a defendant claims a sincerely held religious belief that as head of a Christian household, he must subjugate his wife and children -- a belief not unusual in some fundamentalist circles -- and disarming him substantially interferes with his ability to do so because his firearms are religious artifacts which his beliefs require him to possess at all times. The burden would be on the prosecution to show that § 922(g)(8) furthers a compelling governmental interest which cannot be achieved by means less restrictive of the defendant's liberty.
". . . and disarming him substantially interferes with his ability to do so because his firearms are religious artifacts which his beliefs require him to possess at all times."
Sikh daggers come to mind.
Well just remember if that outcome occurs, its on Congress not the Supreme Court. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act was Congress statutorily overruling Smith.
The Supreme Court submitted to being corrected by their ultimate authority, and has since been applying it faithfully. Congress has vastly more authority in expanding constitution rights by statute, than they do restricting them.
If you don't like it complain to your Congressman.
Case law based on gun restrictions against religion, race, ethnicity, etc., might take a back seat to case law based on morally reprehensible behavior. One can say "bad guy" without saying Catholic, Black, Italian, etc.
If the notion of history and tradition is to mean anything, it must mean that historical legal textualism by itself is not enough. Which is wise.
It is trivial to show that throughout history many laws have been passed which were completely ignored, and had no effect whatever on the activities they purported to govern. It is even possible to find instances of laws which were intended to be ignored as a whole or in part, but which were passed anyway. There have been political reasons to do that. There have been practical reasons to do it. And there have even been idealistic reasons to do it.
In all such instances legal textualism has power to deliver only pretend precedents, which insist that those laws governed when in fact they did not. There is a lot of that in Dobbs, by the way. Kopel insists, along with Justice Thomas, for even more of it in Bruen.
The intent is always the same. To deliver a decision in defiance of history, to reach present-minded results the Justices happen to favor, and to justify it by calling it originalism—all while thumbing their noses at any idea of constraint.
Why don't you give us an example of that from Bruen.
Second Amendment Preservation Act in Missouri should stand.
All rights have their home in the places you actually live. Is there even one case the Feds can say, Here gun laws were violated? Here someone in MO is claiming an act of injustice? THis is a law that disguises the attempt to dictate state appllication. Very simple, not a legal issue at all