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Sixth Circuit Reverses Preliminary Injunctions Against TN & KY Laws Restricting Gender Dysphoria Treatments for Minors (Updated)
After a divided ruling, laws limiting such treatments in Tennessee and Kentucky will go into force.
[See updates below]
In July, a divded panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit stayed a preliminary injunction against a Tennessee law barring pharmaceutical and surgical gender-affirming care for minors diagnosed with gender dysphoria. A similar case arose out of Kentucky. On Thursday, a divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit reversed the preliminary injunctions issued in both cases. Chief Judge Sutton wrote the majoirty opinion in Skrmetti v. L.W., joined by Judge Thapar, rejecting both due process and equal protection challenges to the laws. Judge White dissented.
In his opinion, Chief Judge Sutton stresses the high hurdle plaintiffs must clear to justify a preliminary injunction, explains why the plaintiffs cannot show that the Tennessee and Kentucky laws are clearly precluded under existing precedent, and makes the case that judges should tread cautionsly before expanding existing constitutional guarantees to preclude state-level experimentation with emerging issues.
The claimants face several initial headwinds in obtaining relief. First, they do not argue that the original fixed meaning of the due process or equal protection guarantees covers these claims. That prompts the question whether the people of this country ever agreed to remove debates of this sort—over the use of innovative, and potentially irreversible, medical treatments for children—from the conventional place for dealing with new norms, new drugs, and new public health concerns: the democratic process. Life-tenured federal judges should be wary of removing a vexing and novel topic of medical debate from the ebbs and flows of democracy by construing a largely unamendable Constitution to occupy the field.
Second, while the challengers do invoke constitutional precedents of the Supreme Court and our Court in bringing this lawsuit, not one of them resolves these claims. In each instance, they seek to extend the constitutional guarantees to new territory. There is nothing wrong with that, to be certain. But this reality does suggest that the key premise of a preliminary injunction—a showing of a likelihood of success on the merits—is missing. Constitutionalizing new areas of American life is not something federal courts should do lightly, particularly when "the States are currently engaged in serious, thoughtful" debates about the issue. Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702, 719 (1997).
Third, the States are indeed engaged in thoughtful debates over this issue, as the recent proliferation of legislative activity across the country shows. By our count, nineteen States have laws similar to those in Tennessee and Kentucky, all of recent vintage. . . . At least fourteen other States, meanwhile, provide various protections for those seeking treatments for gender dysphoria, all too of recent vintage. . . .
Most of this legislative activity occurred within the last two years. Failure to allow these laws to go into effect would start to grind these all-over-the-map gears to a halt. Given the high stakes of these nascent policy deliberations—the long-term health of children facing gender dysphoria—sound government usually benefits from more rather than less debate, more rather than less input, more rather than less consideration of fair-minded policy approaches. To permit legislatures on one side of the debate to have their say while silencing legislatures on the other side of the debate under the Constitution does not further these goals. That is all the more critical in view of two realities looming over both cases—the concept of gender dysphoria as a medical condition is relatively new and the use of drug treatments that change or modify a child's sex characteristics is even more recent. Prohibiting citizens and legislatures from offering their perspectives on high-stakes medical policies, in which compassion for the child points in both directions, is not something life-tenured federal judges should do without a clear warrant in the Constitution.
The opinion goes on to walk through the various due process and equal protection arguments and rejects the claims that the laws in question impermissibly infringe upon fundamental rights or violate equal protection, either by adopting an impermissible sex-based classification or discriminating against a suspect class.
Chief Judge Sutton's opinion concludes:
No one in these consolidated cases debates the existence of gender dysphoria or the distress caused by it. And no one doubts the value of providing psychological and related care to children facing it. The question is whether certain additional treatments—puberty blockers, hormone treatments, and surgeries—should be added to the mix of treatments available to those age 17 and under. As to that, we return to where we started. This is a relatively new diagnosis with ever-shifting approaches to care over the last decade or two. Under these circumstances, it is difficult for anyone to be sure about predicting the long-term consequences of abandoning age limits of any sort for these treatments. That is precisely the kind of situation in which life-tenured judges construing a difficult-to-amend Constitution should be humble and careful about announcing new substantive due process or equal protection rights that limit accountable elected officials from sorting out these medical, social, and policy challenges.
For these reasons, we reverse the preliminary injunctions issued in these cases and remand them for further proceedings consistent with this decision.
As noted, Judge White dissented, concluding that the laws violate both due process and equal protection. Her dissent begins:
The statutes we consider today discriminate based on sex and gender conformity and intrude on the well-established province of parents to make medical decisions for their minor children. Despite these violations of the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment, the majority concludes that the statutes are likely constitutional and reverses district court orders enjoining the statutes. . . .
And her dissent concludes:
As the majority notes, the heated political debate over gender-affirming care has yielded varying laws in Tennessee, Kentucky, and throughout our country. In the normal course, the Constitution contemplates the states acting as laboratories of democracies to resolve the controversies of the day differently. See New State Ice Co v. Liebmann, 285 U.S. 262, 311 (1932) (Brandeis, J., dissenting).
But when a fundamental right or freedom from discrimination is involved, experimentation has no place. "The very purpose of" our constitutional system "was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." W. Va. St. Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 638 (1943). Our "fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." Id. Similarly, "[n]o plebiscite can legalize an unjust discrimination." Lucas v. Forty-Fourth Gen. Assemb., 377 U.S. 713, 736 n.29 (1964) (citation omitted).
Tennessee's and Kentucky's laws tell minors and their parents that the minors cannot undergo medical care because of the accidents of their births and their failure to conform to how society believes boys and girls should look and live. The laws further deprive the parents—those whom we otherwise recognize as best suited to further their minor children's interests—of their right to make medical decisions affecting their children in conjunction with their children and medical practitioners. For these reasons, I dissent.
Given the holding and the current composition of the Sixth Circuit, this is not a particularly strong candidate for en banc review. There is also no circuit split yet on this question. The only other federal appeals court to rule on this issue thus far -- the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit -- reached the same conclusion. Several district courts have gone the other way, however, making it possible that a circuit split could still emerge, precipitating Supreme Court review.
UPDATE: One potential source for a crcuit split could be two cases currently pending in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit -- Fain v. Crouch and Kadell v. Fowell -- which involve state refusals to cover gender reassignment surgery and some other treatments for gender dysphoria under Medicaid or other state-run health care plans. The Fourth Circuit heard both cases en banc earlier this month, and it seems possible the court will disagree with the Sixth Circuit, at least with regard to whether such restrictions violate the Equal Protection Clause.
SECOND UPDATE: There is arguably a circuit split already with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit (at least for now). Last year, in Brandt v. Rutledge, the Eighth Circuit affirmed a preliminary injunction against an Arkansas law barring gender transition treatments for minors. The court also denied a petition for rehearing en banc. Of note, five judges called for en banc rehearing, and three more noted they opposed en banc rehearing because of the interlocutory posture of the case, and not because they concurred with the panel opinion. (The Eighth Circuit has eleven judges in active service.) Now that the district court has enjoined the law and the case is now on appeal, Arkansas has petitioned for initial hearing en banc. Should this motion be granted, I suspect the Eighth Circuit will agree with the Sixth and Eleventh Circuits, thus eliminating the circuit split.
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the States are indeed engaged in thoughtful debates over this issue, as the recent proliferation of legislative activity across the country shows.
Judge Sutton must be the leading bridge owner in the country.
Well, the judge has to appear impartial, he can't come right out and gender ideology is a cult and the only people being thoughtful are the ones trying to prevent the mutilation of children.
Such thoughtful debate.
Nothing shallow about putting the children first and banning treatment that has more negative outcomes than positive:
"The majority of children in a landmark study on puberty blockers experienced positive or negative changes in their mental health, new analysis suggests.
The original study of 44 children, who all took the controversial drugs for a year or more, found no mental health impact - neither benefits nor harm.
But a re-analysis of that data now suggests 34% saw their mental health deteriorate, while 29% improved.."
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-66842352
First, do no harm.
A landmark study of 44 children? ‘Tom’ won’t be impressed.
‘However, what neither the original research paper, nor the re-analysis, can do is tell us why these young people fared so differently.’
Ooops.
Still, more research can only be to the good.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33320999/
nige - do you ever bother to read the studies you cite?
do you even understand the studies?
Why? Do you not know how to do either?
What's your issue, Tom?
The Study you are looking for is “Clinical Management of Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents” out of the UK. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J485v09n03_04 This study attempted and failed to reproduce the Dutch Protocol. Due to failure to replicate and problems with found in the Dutch Protocol, health authorities in Finland, Sweden, and the U.K performed a risk/benefit analysis based on their national data. The result was a change in policy and a severe
restriction on hormonal treatment for minors. The short version of the various findings (all from Finland, Sweden, and the U.K) Risk of self harm goes up after treatment. 80% of adolescence grow out of gender dysphoria. Most of the people getting treatment are on the autism spectrum and not similar to the psychological profile used in the Dutch Protocol There are serious medical issues with hormonal treatment that where overlooked by earlier studies.
We love democracy. Until we don’t.
We love the Feds stepping on states. Unil we don’t.
We love the states being 50 laboratory experiments of legislation. Until we don’t.
One can’t even tell “which side” I am attacking, as both sides do all of the above.
Hint: Who said I’m attacking one side? That's one's echo chamber telling you that, which benefits from you thinking that, that your side is pure and the other side lousy with demon-misled trickstars of no philosophical principle deeper than power at any cost.
It's pretty much conservatives doing their best to discredit and dismantle democracy. But, sure, you can balance its national leaders against obscure attention-seekers on the other side. Same-same.
As opposed to, I don't know...
* The tyrant king threatening massive financial harm against media companies, censor harrassment or else, start with statements of his political opponent right before an election, which was done
* The tyrant king launching endless investigations into his political opponent, looking for something, anything, that will stick
* The tyrant king trying to remove him from office, and not being able to convince anyone but his royalist supporters
And finally, the piece of resistance:
* The tyrant king expropriating the estate of his political opponent
Yeah...real lover of democracy there.
You could be completely right Trump is a pos, and yet badly wrong, threatening democracy finding workarounds for all of the above, things the Founding Fathers struggled so mighily to forbid.
These are all golf clubs in the tyrant's bag of tricks.
Boo on you.
Since the "tyrant king" is apparently President Joe Bipartisan, the obvious guess as to which side you prefer to attack turned out to be spot on.
That you could be such a delusional nutcase and still feel you have to both-sides it is impressive, though.
Thanks for the weekend belly laugh. Did he find someone else to chum up with for token cross-aisle representation after Liz Cheney got drummed out?
Today, it's Kevin McCarthy.
The only thing that article mentioned about Biden was his bitching that the bill didn't include the latest and greatest Ukraine donation. How exactly does that support your howler?
You're OK with the stuff Krayt made up, but not that Biden got what he needed out of the Republican House, and that he praised the bipartisanship while condemning the brinkmanship.
Biden wasn't mentioned in the story I took the McCarthy quote from, so I have no idea what you're talking about. But Biden is already moving toward his next bipartisan triumph with McCarthy:
Which makes it even weirder that you'd provide it in support of "President Bipartisan," huh? Unless you're just in "something good happened, so it was Biden" mode.
Yup, that's the same passage I was referring to. Sounded a lot more like "sure is a nice store you have here -- I fully expect next week's payment will be on time" to me.
I quoted that in support of describing McCarthy as his "cross-aisle representation", which anyone who wasn't a quibbling idiot would have realized. So, you didn't actually find any such story, you just made up what it would say to satisfy your political preferences.
Again, the most you're offering is McCarthy being bipartisan, not Biden. So yes, Virginia, I'm going to continue to point out that you have precisely nothing to back your original ridiculous claim.
Biden has been stupendously divisive thus far in his tenure, and as best I recall you were amongst the crowd cheering it on at every turn. I can only think you're trying to convince yourself of your new crazy theory to the contrary, because you're certainly not going to convince anyone else who's been paying the slightest lick of attention.
You asked
and I told you it was Kevin McCarthy. You should probably quit now, before you make yourself look even dumber.
In case you're now pivoting to "you didn't show that Joe Biden has been bipartisan" which you didn't ask, I'll let Joe Biden explain: "I’ve signed more than 350 bipartisan laws thus far in almost two and a half years" (from his June remarks when the debt ceiling was lifted). It's not like Liz Cheney would be much help getting Republican votes; her own party threw her out.
Ah, it's the stubborn literalist defense. LOL.
And your evidence that Biden is bipartisan is that Biden sez he's bipartisan? Double LOL.
He announces it, and nobody has rebutted it. Including you.
Quibble away, Literalist of Brian.
Your claim Biden has been divisive is idiotic.
Actually, as a libertarian type, I am against such legislation. The plea that it is horrible to take this out of democratic debate and legislation is the BS that spawned my original sarcasm. Vox populi vox dei is not a value, but it is to the power hungry.
And Biden is better than Trump as a president. We don’t need Trump in power with Ukraine. And looking the other way while tanks roll through Europe is not a value.
Preferrably we’d have another president who’d keep it up, not spend like a maniac, and stop piling on the emergency power claim to do sketchy stuff. Who started that? Not Biden! Though he can be faulted for fulfilling predictions the next prez after Trump would get right to that.
Nice try, though.
Bad humans all around!
See? You hate democracy.
All legal problems come directly from Joe Biden.
What a simpleton take.
Biden did nothing. This started before him. And pattern matching it to rampant abuses by tyrant kings of yore is the opposite of a simpleton take.
Other than that...
pattern matching it to rampant abuses by tyrant kings of yore is the opposite of a simpleton take.
Naw, dude, it's you didn't start with the facts you started with the pattern you wanted to match and then assumed stuff till it fit.
Simpleton move to convince himself of the story he already believes.
If the tyrant king isn't Biden, who is it? Shadowy globalists? 'The system?' Not a lot of answers that don't make you look like a petulant high schooler.
If "Biden did nothing", then who is the tyrant king? Or have these things not been done for the past three years?
Your fictional list is very simple.
You're attacking process, which is fine, but 'both sides work the process' isn't exactly earth-shattering news.
You're right, of course: Only the side writing and passing these laws is actually willing to debate the issue. Your side is only willing to call people names for daring to disagree with your orthodoxy.
Excellent point - proponents resort to calling those opposed to a highly questionable treatment for what has strong indications of a mental illness - haters of transgenders.
The truth of the matter is the advocates are pushing a medical treatment that permanently removes a person from returning to a normal life. At some point in the future an effective treatment for the mental illness will be developed and this children will have zero opportunity to return to a normal life.
strong indications of a mental illness
Nonsense.
Wishing to render yourself sterile and incapable of romantic attachment or sexual pleasure is a sign of mental illness. Obviously many adolescents find sexuality confusing and unpleasant, and may delude themselves into going down this path, but they are misguided. (I myself suffered from both discomfort with sex and gender dysphoria during much of my youth, but fortunately back then nobody suggested massive doses of dangerous hormones, much less surgical castration. Don't cry for me Sarcastro, I eventually accepted my body and my sexualkty as they are.)
Your first sentence is just more bullshit.
There is nothing bullshit about it.
No one is 'wishing to render yourself sterile and incapable of romantic attachment or sexual pleasure' here.
So, you're saying the consent isn't actually informed?
You have demonstrated a quite astonishing amount of ignorance about this subject, and it's obviously quite wilful and deliberate, so...
pot meet kettle
Wishing to render yourself sterile and incapable of romantic attachment or sexual pleasure is a sign of mental illness.
What about making no physical changes but deliberately organizing your life so you never engage in sexual relations or get involved in romantic relationships?
Are Catholic priests and nuns, or at least those who stick to their vows, mentally ill?
Catholic priests and nuns can change their mind. A better analogy would be eunuchs.
Ipse dixit.
Your stamping your feet does not make it so.
Joe_dallas also made an ipse dixit argument.
Josh - you might get a refresher course from you jounior high school biology textbook . Tell us again who someone can return to normal after removing certain body parts. Once you get a refresher course on basic human anatomy, you might understand why my statement is factually correct.
People return to 'normal' after the removal of body parts all the time.
Nige 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
People return to ‘normal’ after the removal of body parts all the time.
Bull S___
You know that is BS with respect to transgender surgery.
You have to be a complete moron to believe that
I dunno, you see people with amputated legs running marathons, and they defintiely prefer when that is seen as ‘normal’ rather than ‘brave’ or ‘inspiring.’
If ‘normal’ for trans people was suffering gender dysphoria, why would they want to go back to normal? It's like, they've been cured of something and you're mad that they got cured.
I don't see people without uteruses or penises having children, though. You do know where babies come from, right? It's not the cabbage patch.
It’s almost like gender is about more than who the baby comes out of.
That’s their choice, not yours, or is this a whole new aspect of the 'forced birth' movement.
“It’s almost like gender is about more than who the baby comes out of.”–Huh? If you have no penis and no uterus, you have no role at all in the production of babies, no matter how many cabbages you open. You are in fact sterile, as I said.
But I like the idea that things like abortion, maternity leave, nursing policies etc. are not women’s issues, since being a woman apparently has nothing to do with any of that wholly ungendered stuff, but–at least according to Deirdre McCloskey–mostly with wearing dresses and making casseroles.
Lets try again:
It's almost as though gender is about more than penis/uterus possession.
So what, Josh?
That does not excuse S_0.
Don, they guy with no expertise calling something a mental illness is the problem, and yet try and come after me.
As a simple man once said: boo on you.
I come after you, not because you are wrong, but because the distortion of this sort is your usual mode of argumentation when You clearly know better.
Of your issue is that I didn't point out the ipse dixit explicitly, and just pointed out it was nonsense, I don't know what to tell you - sometimes using the debate school terms isn't required to point out someone is spouting nonsense.
Transgender individuals are under pshyciatric care - yet you and nige want to argue that they are not suffering a mental illness.
What are comorbidities 'Tom?'
We are not arguing that transgender people who seek psychiatric care don't have a mental illness. But, we are arguing being transgender is not the illness. Gender dysphoria is.
Josh R 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"We are not arguing that transgender people who seek psychiatric care don’t have a mental illness. But, we are arguing being transgender is not the illness. Gender dysphoria is."
Josh - your distinction has no meaningfull distinction - all transgender individuals are suffering from gender dysphoria. Guess how many transgender individuals are not suffering from a mental illness. any guesses other than zero.
You're being hilariously non-responsive 'Tom.'
Greater than zero for two reasons: 1) not all transgender people have gender dysphoria, and 2) gender-affirming care can relieve the suffering of gender dysphoria.
Josh R 57 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
how many transgender individuals are not suffering from a mental illness
"Greater than zero for two reasons: 1) not all transgender people have gender dysphoria, and 2) gender-affirming care can relieve the suffering of gender dysphoria."
Josh - are trying to be serious?
I am serious. Very much so.
DSM-5 disagrees with you.
DSM-III and DSM-IV agree with him. Changes in that category were driven more by politics than by science.
*footage not found
All of which shows that the DSM that guides this failed profession is more about politics than medicine
This is circular thinking. You assume the answer, and then argue everything that disagrees is political not factual.
Where was this shown?
Or perhaps, new data has led to new conclusions?
Like which new data?
See for example, this literature review.
What shows that, Don?
Michael P.'s uninformed rambling?
You're the uninformed one here. DSM-III recognized both transsexualism and gender identity disorder of the non-transexual type as disorders. DSM-IV combined these into a single disorder, gender identity disorder.
Changes in that category were driven more by politics than by science.
I see. That's the go-to excuse for all sorts of idiocy. How exactly do you know what drove the changes? Were part of the group that devised them?
DSM V is nothing more than a popularity vote -- it lacks any scientific basis.
Yeah, remember how popular lgtbq people were in 1980.
This is the same DSM that once defined them as mentally ill.
Science, like society, marches on.
In the past, we institutionalized people like you involuntarily for being antisocial or whatever.
When do you expect to find a counterexample to Fermat's Last Theorem?
When did you start mixing up math and science?
When, more than forty years ago?
That was also true when they decided homosexuality was not a mental disorder. It wasn't based on science, but about not hurting the feelings of homosexuals.
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/12/23/archives/the-issue-is-subtle-the-debate-still-on-the-apa-ruling-on.html
More about preventing a threatened riot and disruption of the APA annual convention.
Ed, you are not an expert in mental illness, not even your own.
Transgender individuals are under psychiatric care - but you somehow believe its not a mental illness. Do you seriously have trouble with basic logic
What are comorbidities 'Tom?'
Nige - you have repetitvely stated that transgender individuals get psychiatric care as part of their treatment -
Yet you deny that transgender is a mental illness
I refer you to the comment to which you appear to have replied without reading or understanding.
I'm regularly under medical care, and they prescribe treatments even, and yet I am not physically ill.
Do you have a problem with basic semantics?
“not even your own.” Ouch!
Now I should not encourage name calling, but this one was too good not to praise you for.
But you're lying. Treatments are hugely succesful. If they weren't, you wouldn't be trying to prohibit them.
You going with this?
Explain gay conversion therapy.
Left has been working to prohibit it for years.
Guess it is WILDLY successful.
No, it's wildly abusive and a form of malpracitce.
So, it's like mutilating kids because they think they are the wrong sex.
Thanks for agreeing.
If only you were remotely as clever as you thought you were.
"Gay conversion therapy" is based on the idea that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's abusive, ineffective, and tends to create mental health issues in the people subjected to it (like suicide).
Hormone and surgical treatments for gender dysphoria are based on the idea the it's a physiological condition, not a mental one. And they tend to be far more effective than trying to convince people they're the opposite gender.
Oh, and here's the big thing. Basically no one is talking about giving surgery for transgender youth except folks like yourself who are trying to scaremonger.
What they actually want is puberty blockers so that the child has more options when they grow up.
All these people have to do is look what is between their legs!
Look, go away and research gender dysphoria, you clearly have no idea what it is.
Gender dysphoria is exactly not accepting what is between your legs!
Keep going...
Mistreating a condition should be covered by malpractice (and it will be soon enough. Lawsuits will be coming over this).
Bullying tactics.
Are you really trying to say that they wouldn't try to prohibit them if they were unsuccessful, and 'just' left a bunch of children sterile and unable to have normal lives? Seriously?
Being succesful is the crucial part.
The state is simply trying to keep parents from forcibly sterilizing their children.
Suddenly the state knows best.
But it's curious, the emphasis on infertility. You're not really interested in helping the children, you just want them to bear more children. Which is creepy.
In this instance, they do know best.
Transphobia isn't 'best' except for demagogues and fascists.
Treatments are NOT successful -- look at the suicide rates.
Irreversible and successful are not the same thing.
Satisfaction rating with the treatments are 98%. One of the two main parties in the US being determined to wipe you out isn't great for mental health.
Nige - the success rates are no where close to "98%"
Those are advocacy surverys which have serious statistical problems.
A more recent study:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258#Gender-surgery-improves-quality-of-life
'Overall, 71 percent of the participants reported feeling very satisfied with the “optical and functional results” of the surgery, with 76.2 percent of the participants saying that they were able to achieve orgasms.'
That's still pretty high!
Nige - from the study you cited - "However, the authors also note some limitations to their study. These include a high dropout rate (from a total of 610 people who underwent the surgery, only 156 were included in the study) and the fact that the data were collected from a single center."
a response rate of 25% - You still cant grasp the weakness of the studies.
Learn how to read, analize and understand a study.
So what? All the data points at the treatment being succesful No data contradicts this. No matter how weak you claim the studies are, they're stronger than the Hulk compared to the studies that don't exist.
Demonstrably ridiculous trolling as always, but in pulling a quick example or two I was reminded of another failure of your pet surveys: with transsexuals who have undergone reassignment surgery having nearly a 20x suicide rate, there’s a glaring survivorship bias problem in those still around to take surveys.
It's rough being trans. You want to make it even rougher. Why? No reason, you just hate 'em.
'Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, *although alleviating gender dysphoria,* may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.'
Relieving gender dysphoria is the point of the treatments. It works. If you're genuinely concerned about their mental health post-op, support better access to mental health care and dont be transphobic.
Nige - its been repetitively explained to you why those advocacy studies showing high success rates have serious statistical problems.
You've also repetitively failed to show any data that contradicts those studies.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258
YOUR OWN FUCKING STUDY SHOWED A 74% DROPOUT RATE. It’s REALLY fucking doubtful that the majority of the dropouts were in any way pleased with the effects or their mental health improved. And people wonder why the psych profession is referred to as a bunch of fucking quacks.
False, there is ZERO mid or long term evidence that treatments are successful. There are zero such studies at all on puberty blockers and what... two poorly structured studies that show during what in the cosmetic surgery circles is referred to as the short term(as in less than a year) honeymoon period that people are 'pleased' with the surgery. Not that it has improved their mental health, which at less than a year would be a meaningless observation anyway, but that they are "pleased" with it.
I'm not sure 'you are all monsters trying to corrupt children' is really part of a 'debate.'
You can dislike the legislation and actually acknowledge it exists.
If the Constitution does not prohibit states from forcibly sterilize women Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), surely it does not prohibit states from prohibiting parents from sterilizing their kids!
Interesting point...
Narrator: it was not, in fact, an interesting point.
Buck v. Bell and Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. ___, 142 S.Ct. 2228 (2022), are merely different sides of the same coin. Each empowers state governments to determine who does or does not reproduce.
Dobbs does no such thing.
Of course it does. Have you read Dobbs?
It does not allow the government to determine either who reproduced or who does not. Quote otherwise or admit that you are a liar.
So option #2, then.
Force those kids to endure lifelong suffering and have babies because you want to make medical choices for other peoples' children!
Better to have lifelong suffering and be unable to reproduce? Not seeing how that is better.
What lifelong suffering? The treatment works. You must be referring to your campaign of hate against them. That's in your power to stop.
If by "swells the number of sexual deviants we can use as a wedge to destroy society, by preventing children from ever getting over a temporary confusion and leading normal lives", yeah, it works. Works great.
You have to be somewhat monstrous to want that to work, but it works.
You want to deny kids with a very specific condition treatment for that condition, because you think they are 'sexual deviants,' whatever that even means. 'Swellling the numbers' from a tiny percentage to a slightly higher tiny percentage. Adults too, despite protestations.
swells the number of sexual deviants
Puritan persecution parade.
More name-calling in place of debate. Yawn.
Brett Bellmore doesn't have a thesis above, he has fear the sex stuff he doesn't like is a Democratic plot against normal people like him.
That's worth mockery; not much more.
Treatment does not work and no evidence bolsters your faith in it.
Incredible proving right here.
[I'd be unsurprised if surgery is the right one-size-fits-all treatment, but this is just contradiction, not argument
Oblig Python ref.]
Are you actually endorsing surgical intervention for minors? If so, what do you feel is the best evidence that it does, in fact, work?
I am not. I in fact think it is well within state authority to ban. At least unless some new info comes out.
damikesc's argument is still bad.
Why are you talking about surgical intervention for minors? Even trans advocacy groups are very cautious about that:
It’s important to know that very young children do not receive surgeries or medications. For young children, gender transition is a social transition, which often involves a haircut, a new name, and new clothes that match their gender identity. For adolescents, any medical transition care such as hormone therapy or puberty blockers are only prescribed based on an individual young person’s needs.
Any surgical care for teenagers under 18 is rare and individualized. It is carefully examined under the supervision of medical professionals using standardized, evidence-based guidelines.
The real debate is about allowing hormone blockers to delay puberty. They’re largely reversible, and it’s a course of treatment that leaves most doors open until they are an adult.
Your second link doesn't support what you claim it says.
The only reference to anything being reversible is here:
Side effects are possible, not probable. Those are exceptions.
I said they’re largely reversible, not completely. And it’s funny how you found “the only reference to anything being reversible” at the very end of the long article but missed this entire section with a great big header:
You’re obsessing over probably rare side effects and the fact that delaying puberty will still have some effect.
Yes, it sucks that we don’t have perfect treatments for youths, or adults, with gender dysphoria. But for a lot of youths puberty blockers improve outcomes with very minor side effects compared to doing nothing.
Michael P, you read the paper in bad faith if that's what you got out of it.
I know, we are all shocked about that.
yourself and Gaslight0, note what that advocacy page (not a "paper") goes out of its way to avoid saying: That puberty can be delayed without permanent side effects.
What the fuck do you think 'GnRH analogues don’t cause permanent physical changes' means, chief?
And what the fuck do you think gaslight means, also?
It means that they're ignoring permanent mental changes and any physical changes that they can hand-wave as caused by anything else. There's insufficient clinical evidence to support either safety or efficacy of these drugs for this off-label use, which is why lots of other countries prohibit or strictly limit it.
"GnRH analogues don’t cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead..
When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again."
That was an understanding of their effect based on their use to treat premature puberty, delaying it until its NORMAL age.
Use to delay puberty beyond that normal age has revealed that there's a limited window for puberty to take place within, and if you delay it beyond that window, you're never going through a normal puberty.
That's part of the basis for European governments souring on this sort of treatment.
How is their suffering lifelong if the hormone treatments and genital mutilation are only delayed?
Yeah, right. 'Delayed.'
Yes, delayed.
That is what the laws in question do.
As if they aren't coming for treatment for adults, too.
Plus, why are you so eager to make kids suffer?
Suffer through what?
What almost all kids experience?
Very few kids experience gender dysphoria, which can cause a great deal of suffering.
Has delaying puberty actually cured gender dysphoria?
It actually prevents it from curing itself, which may be exactly the point. You can take a transitory confusion somebody would grow out of, and turn it into a perpetual revenue stream.
To be clear, no one is really talking about doing gender surgery on kids.
The actual debate is about puberty blockers.
So do you have a persuasive argument about the actual issue?
It's a medical treatment prescribed for a medical condition. Get your noses out of other peoples' medical issues.
I agree, but don't accept the framing this is about surgery on minors because it isn't:
It’s important to know that very young children do not receive surgeries or medications. For young children, gender transition is a social transition, which often involves a haircut, a new name, and new clothes that match their gender identity. For adolescents, any medical transition care such as hormone therapy or puberty blockers are only prescribed based on an individual young person’s needs.
Any surgical care for teenagers under 18 is rare and individualized. It is carefully examined under the supervision of medical professionals using standardized, evidence-based guidelines.
Please correct a few of the lying weirdos round here talking about kids being butchered by Frankensteins.
I’m struggling with the suggestion that non individualised surgical care is a thing.
Another thank you to Trump -- even though the RINOs sold us out on the budget, at least we won one today.
Future generations will condemn this current fad of gender mutilation in the same way we condemn lobotomies. At least there are two states where children are safe...
Hopefully, we'll someday have an America where anyone who dares utter one word of the modern Democrat Party platform is summarily executed.
Robespierre was a hero.
Robespierre also lost his head.
Just sayin....
You know, one of my concerns about Trump was that he'd pivot left after being elected. Democrats kind of burned that bridge for him, so that aside from the occasional bump stock ban he never did.
But it looks like he's in the process of doing that right now; He's convinced he's got the loyalty of a critical mass of Republicans no matter what he does or says, and no longer needs to pretend to be a conservative.
But it's quite a while until the first Republican primary, and I suspect it's not going to work as well as he thinks.
Really codifying this horrible culture war crap as Republican 'principles,' aren't we? Trump isn't transphobic enough! Multiple indictments, tried to overturn an election, stole classified documents, guilty of fraud, liable for sexual assault, promising to shoot people out of hand and execute his enemies, all cool! But not transphobic enough!
The only culture "war" is being imposed by you leftists. We're not the ones fighting to put confused men in women's bathrooms, nor are we fighting to force bakers to make cakes.
I said it before, and I've said it again. You people belong in gas chambers.
bathrooms, cakes...
GAS CHAMBERS!
No, we don't need gas chambers. We can reduce them to ridicule well enough otherwise. And we shall.
From Dr. Ed 2, that's like the guy who wins a fistfight by wearing down the other guy's fist with his face.
Lamppost/A-10/nuke Mexico Ed going soft? Be careful, you’ll be labeled a rino squish around here
Judge White, while appointed by Jorge Bush, is a woman from New York who f*cked her way to the top of her clerkship for a Jewish judge in MIchigan.
As a general rule, you should not hate people you don't know.
I hate most women, as they have ruined Western society.
It feels like you might be harboring seeds of resentment. What happened to you?
Like most of his ilk, he’s an incel.
No, I'm married, to a traditional woman.
Why are you angry?
Because single women, along with their limp wristed male allies, are destroying Western civilization.
What specifically about Western civilization is being destroyed?
It's birth control pills.
Their bodies are tricked into thinking they are pregnant -- and the ideal place for a pregnant woman is home, barefoot, with a loving Type A husband looking after her.
Except that they are hormonally pregnant and wanting to be in charge of everything, and view other men as threats to their non-existent pregnancies. That's the root of a lot of our current problems.
L, as they say, OL.
Dr. Ed 2's misogyny is not logically consistent.
No David, the actual incels are a very small bunch of losers.
There are far more people who simply want nothing to do with these man-hating feminazis.
That's some old-school misogyny.
Hysteria -> 'dames are crazy' -> 'Those Feminazis' -> Incel.
It's like the waves of feminism, but much shittier.
Idihax, how do you claim to know about Judge White's sex life? Please identify your source(s) of information specifically.
I thought that her appointment to the bench had more to do with her then being married to Sen. Carl Levin's cousin and the electoral defeat of Sen. Spencer Abraham, who had blocked her nomination by President Clinton.
She married this Jew after clerking for him.
When they married, the husband was no longer in office.
What is your source of information as to her sex life?
Why do you think it's acceptable to f*ck your boss?
Maybe he clerked for Judge Kozinski?
Maybe he is (disgraced former) Judge Kozinski?
Presumably, when Ms. White and Mr. Levin were married -- after he left office -- they had sex. You posit that they had sex when she was working for him. How do you claim to know that?
Sometimes I seriously wonder whether people are being paid to write the worst comments they think they can get away with, to drown out any thoughtful commentary and bring this blog down.
If it is an ethics violation to sleep with your client (or former client)
then isn't it an ethics violation to sleep with your clerk (or former clerk)?
Good thing you're a conservative, Idihax . . . otherwise, Prof. Bernstein would have said something by now.
Why does it matter that he's a Jew?
So, I'm curious, what if the parents were from another culture, and wished to have their daughter's clitoris removed, as is traditional in certain African and Middle Eastern cultures. Would the Constitution protect their right to obtain that procedure? Or what if the parents were from yet another subculture, and wanted to have their child undergo gay conversion therapy? Is that parental choice Constitutionally protected? I'm pretty sure that Judge White (and Sarcastro) would say, "No, the Constitution protects my subculture, but not yours. My people have been outside the cave and are in possession of the revealed truth; your people are just yahoos with no rights that Judge White is bound to respect."
There's no medical justification for FGM.
And there is none for transition surgery either.
Racists anti-semite agrees with the people who hate it when racist anti-semites get called racist anti-semites. Consistent Nazi ideology, too.
Is that like the medical justification for BLM protests?
I’m pretty sure that Judge White (and Sarcastro) would say, “No, the Constitution protects my subculture, but not yours
Then you're wrong. The Constitution does not protect FGM or honor killings.
Now do circumcision.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/30/us/north-carolina-abortion-ban-provisions-blocked/index.html
I agree that portion of the law is probably without rational basis, but that also applies to most gun laws which the same Democrat judges have no issue with. Of course, Judge Eagles was appointed by the terrorist pedophile Muslim homosexual coke addict who took over the White House for 8 years so not a surprise.
Suppose the Tennessee General Assembly amended all of the state’s criminal statutes prohibiting child abuse, assault and homicide to categorically exempt a parent’s administration of corporal punishment to that parent’s transgender minor child (irrespective of whether the child is biologically male or female), no matter how severe.
Does anyone see a substantive due process or equal protection problem with such an exemption?
Weird, abusing children with gender dysphoria is exactly what you are fighting for. Just because you are pretending, or convinced yourself, that it's "gender-conformity care" doesn't mean it's not abuse.
'This is a relatively new diagnosis'
'Relatively' doing some major heavy lifting there. The diagnosis first appeared in the DSM in 1980. Denying treatment is not a neutral choice. He's making a medical decision for kids who are in distress, forcing them to remain in that state and worsen. There's no 'medical' debate as to its efficacy.
Yeah, there is. Which is why numerous European countries are putting the brakes on this treatment.
No, for one thing there’s a lot of exaggeration and overstating about that going on, but where it is happening in Europe, it’s for the same reasons these laws are being passed. Wealthy US Christian fundamentalist groups funding extreme right wing groups in Europe provide much of the momentum. The culture war has been exported. The medical facts remain the same.
I love how supporting mutilating children is just good medicine, but opposing it is just big money talking (ignoring that big money is very much behind mutilating children and trannies are far from an oppressed group).
All operations are mutilations, damikesc.
Some of the money driving right wing culture war stuff in Europe comes from Putin.
You are such a fucking clown.
'Thanks for showing us who you really are' etc.
Don't you have to dilate your neo-vagina?
Wrong site, Bumble.
So you still take up the Hershey Highway?
Wrong site again, Bumble.
So what? Putin understands how Christian values strengthen society. So what?
He wouldn't be supporting them if he thought they helped.
Wrong. Putin uses the Orthodox Church to strengthen Russian Nationalism, which he then exploits.
We're talking about Europe.
Curious.
Interesting.
Putin understands how Christian values strengthen society.
WTF???
Are you claiming Putin has "Christian values?" Let's see. War criminal, invader of his neighbor, murderer of his political opponents.
Damn. You have a low opinion of Christianity.
Just like Mao exemplifies the virtues of the left, huh?
Seems like you should take it up with Ed.
WTF?
Is that the best you can do?
Whatever your point is, it's moronic. Ed was the one praising Putin as an exemplar of Christian virtues. I say he's full of shit, as usual.
Do you agree with me, or Ed?
bernard, maybe you should learn to understand what you read before you try to comment here. You're obviously not up to the task.
Putin funded the anti-fracking movement.
Your point?
This is loony. The Netherlands is not under siege by extreme right wing groups funded by wealthy US Christian fundamentalists. It's happening in Europe because none of this remotely resembles medicine or science, and it's the result of a bunch of extremist activists pushing it nevertheless, and the medical community in Europe is saying, "Hey, wait a minute."
I wish that were true. (The bit about the funding of transphobic far-right groups)
David, gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition and gender affirming care is the recommended medical treatment. 'Extemist activists' (whoever they're supposed to be: as in the many other ways that they are exceptional, trans people aren't allowed to advocate for themselves and other people like them?) had nothing to do with it.
1. I don't know whether to reassured or concerned with your proposition that Europeans are so easily swayed by an allegedly tiny "transphobic far right".
2. Recognized medical condition by whom exactly? This is begging the question, because it certainly seems like some of the extreme activists are the professionals in the field. Their passion for this issue would explain why the entered it to begin with, self-selection.
"...but where it is happening in Europe, it’s for the same reasons these laws are being passed..."
1. Horror stories as detransition women realize they can never breast feed their children.
2. Suicides among the transitioned.
3. The belated realization that "gender conforming surgery" really means sterilization.
4. Growing body of suits against the butchers that profit from these surgeries.
5. Young teens can in no way provide informed consent.
1. 'Horror' stories are a tiny minority.
2. It isn't easy being trans. No need to make it worse.
3. I think that means people who aren't trans getting performatively shocked on the behalf of trans people, who they hate, and who already know and go into it fully informed.
4. Not sure that's anything to be proud of.
5. Geez how do young teens get consent for ANY treatment at all?
"Geez how do young teens get consent for ANY treatment at all?"
As coached, they play the suicide card.
I doubt if any sponsors of these laws gave any serious thought to this issue, and I’m sure, with Trump-style cruelty, they are proudly oblivious to the real suffering of children with gender dysphoria, but sometimes people can be right for the wrong reasons.
The teenage years are a time of self-discovery and change. At age 14 I hated growing a beard and thought about electrolysis which (I had heard) permanently eliminated the follicles from growing. If such a treatment existed, I’m glad I never talked my parents into it. I’ve proudly sported a beard for years now (partly because I’m the only male in my family who can grow a convincing one).
Are you implying that the female members of your family have no trouble growing beards?
"I'm the only male in my family..."
Bumble, what is the highest educational grade you have attained?
Such stupidity may be why nobody engages with your 'posts'.
Or it may be just more fun to mock you.
Or it may be your off-puttingly effeminate nature.
Hahahahahahaha.
Treatment comes with barrages of psychological tests and counselling, no matter what the hateful idiots claim. Never believe a word they say about this (or any) subject without double-or-triple checking, which is obviously tedious, but that's why it works for them.
Is there some kind of agreed-upon protocol and procedure? I can see unscrupulous doctors making $ off hasty and ill-advised interventions (pharmaceutical and surgical) that are irreversible.
Only people who have never had to go through the system, or never listened to anyone who was or is going through the system, or who are lying and don't care (not you) would casually describe it as 'hasty.'
Ok, but is there some kind of agreed-upon protocol and procedure?
Yes, it's the gender-affirming care the other lot are so wound up about.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-medical-treatments-do-transgender-youth-get
Ok, thanks.
And those wanting to switch back are lying?
It's a tiny percentage. Magnified by transphobes, and they definitely deserve better, but still tiny.
Of course, they can’t go back - they are now sterile.
That's why they're encouraged to look at fertility preservation options before undergoing treatment.
Actually, the treatment advocates refer to any failure to approve the treatment as "gatekeeping", which they consider to be an abuse to be circumvented.
"Gatekeeping refers to clinicians' strict application of eligibility criteria to determine a trans patient's "fitness" to engage in medical transition, resulting in significant barriers to gender-affirming care. Gatekeeping often uses "mental readiness" as a prerequisite to medical transition, which contributes to patient distress and systemic discrimination. Changing international trans health guidelines (the new World Professional Association for Transgender Health Standards of Care version 8) recommends clinicians shift from a gatekeeping model towards an informed consent model, which improves access to care. This commentary offers recommendations on how clinicians can reconsider existing "mental readiness" frameworks around medical transition to facilitate improved access to care."
So, no, they've been working hard to eliminate that "barrages of psychological tests and counselling". The 'informed consent' model essentially means that if the patient wants it, they get it.
Your link text does not accurately reflect the article you link to, by the way.
If any other group of people advocated to make it easier to access treatment for their condition you wouldn’t bat an eye. Good of you to cut against the narrative that treatments are hasty and impulsive, though.
No, Nige, it does accurately reflect it. I just omit the anodyne description, and stick to the substance.
They didn't say that, so you said it for them to make it more accurate according to your bias.
What the hell is the point in lying about it, when people can just follow the link and see what they said? I even quoted the relevant passage: They think that not automatically approving requests for the treatment is abusive. And it's easy enough to find places that will help you evade what little 'gatekeepiing' remains, by giving you the relevant diagnosis over the phone for a small fee without ever meeting you.
I did. So, that's a question for you to answer for yourself.
'They think that not automatically approving requests for the treatment is abusive.'
Nobody said that.
'And it’s easy enough to find places'
It's easy enough to get black market organ transplants. Or so they say.
"Gatekeeping often uses “mental readiness” as a prerequisite to medical transition, which contributes to patient distress and systemic discrimination. "
So we have now established that you don't think systematic discrimination is abusive?
Nige, there is zero evidence about "barrages of psychological tests" and there is evidence of extremely light "counseling" and people being called "gender dysphoric" when they specifically said they very much were not.
There is ZERO independent body controlling the treatment. Only advocacy groups.
That would be good news for trans people trying to access healthcare, but it isn't.
"Treatment comes with barrages of psychological tests and counselling, no matter what the hateful idiots claim. "
You keep making this false claim but it is clearly at odds with what has been shown at many gender clinics, which is that nearly 95% of the adolescents referred undergo treatment, and such treatment generally (but not 100% of the time) is absent the supposed prerequisite "barrages of psychological tests and counseling".
In short, I'm having trouble believing anything you write, if you plan to stick to this line of argumentation.
Yeah, right.
"At age 14 I hated growing a beard and thought about electrolysis which (I had heard) permanently eliminated the follicles from growing. If such a treatment existed, I’m glad I never talked my parents into it."
You're obviously a hater. A self-hater, I suppose.
Most teenagers, I'd venture, hate something about their bodies.
Esp, I think, the girls. Step daughter hated that she had no tits. Her best friend hated that she had no butt. But the first had the butt that the second one wanted, and visa versa. Both were happy with their bodies by the time they were 18. This may be why it appears that there is more F2M transitions than M2F (with F2M appearing to be greatly over represented as mass shooters and the like).
Transwomen are more common than transmen, although moving toward equal rates.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7906237/
The assertion about transgender mass shootings is nonsense spread by conservatives to advance their culture war. The overwhelming majority of mass shooters are cisgender males. Recently, conservatives love to claim that mass shooters are transgender, often by misidentifying the shooter or making stuff up. (And to some extent, they also want to downplay the immense right-wing bias in murders by political extremists.) There probably aren't enough actual transgender mass shooters to support generalization about them.
'with F2M appearing to be greatly over represented as mass shooters and the like)'
What an out and out falsehood.
Not exactly. Female "to male" transgenders have recently been about 1.3% of mass killers. OTOH, they're only 0.6% of the general population, so they're about twice as likely as normal people to become mass shooters.
So, yes, they're greatly over-represented.
OTOH, the numbers are so small I can't say this has any statistical significance. And I hope like hell it stays that way!
However, when you consider that female "to male" transgenders ARE still actually females, and that females as such only have about 3% the rate of perpetrating this sort of crime as males, it appears that the 'gender affirming' treatment absolutely enormously raises the female likelihood of committing mass murder.
I suppose it's the testosterone supplementation. It appears to raise the normal female level of aggression up to male levels.
'"4 shooters out of over 300 mass shooters since 2009 are transgender or non binary.'
That's 3. THREE.
(And re the non-binary: 'experts and neighbors of the accused have argued that this could be disingenuous')
'it appears that the ‘gender affirming’ treatment absolutely enormously raises the female likelihood of committing mass murder.'
Assumes causation. Assumes statistical significance. Only one was female to male. With a sample size that small one person doing anything becomes a statistic. Amazing. 99% of shooters can be cis men, but one trans shooter is significant.
And it is EXACTLY an out and out falsehood. Over-represented = 1. Fuck's sake.
If you read the article you linked, you would see that the four cases are three transgender shooters and one non-binary shooter (from other sources, that is a controversial claim; but they do not appear to have received supplemental testosterone as they were assigned male at birth), so less than claimed; and that the Gun Violence Archive lists 2861 mass shootings since 2018, but the article still gives a percentage of a much lower count which you repeat here.
It seems unlikely that transgender people are over represented:https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-transgender-nashville-shooting-misinformation-cd62492d066d41e820c138256570978c But identification of shooters as transgender or not is difficult, and even the estimates of the percentage of transgender people varies, with some estimates being higher than 0.6%.
The four shooters in your link were all younger than 30, and Pew Research says 2% of people that age identify as transgender (another 3% as nonbinary).
It all depends on the definition of a mass shooter.
You are such a judgemental mind-reader. People with telepathic abilities should display more understanding.
I forgot about Poe's Law.
These very comments show the wisdom of the majority opinion to reverse the preliminary injunction and allow this topic to be hashed out in the political, not legal, realm.
Yes, we generally want our courts to practice a strict adherence to law, but only if the laws being adhered to have been thoroughly vetted and grounded, first.
only if the laws being adhered to have been thoroughly vetted and grounded, first.
And my original point was that I don't think for a second that these bans have been thoroughly vetted and grounded, or carefully debated. That's plain as day.
Just read the comments. "We don't need no steenking doctors telling us anything." They are grounded in hatred and sense of revulsion against transsexuals, nothing more. To pretend that the legislatures are carefully examining the evidence and listening to physicians and psychologists is absurd.
The passion you are showing is why we have elections, yes. I believe it is best, however, to speak only of our own motivations, and not suppose we can speak for others. You'll never gain the kind of wide acceptance you will need for a "thorough grounding" by impugning your opponents arguments. You will only win by addressing them.
It would be better of peoples' access to health care wasn't held hostage to appease people who hate them and then reduced to a cartoonishly simple debating-society topic by people who think this is a political and legal issue rather than a medical one.
You seem to be the big hater in these comments.
...and never, ever wrong (well except almost every time he/she comments.
Well I'm not fond of people who decide to go after a minority with all gans blazing.
" in hatred and sense of revulsion against transsexuals, nothing more."
I think that it is more than that, bernard.
The strongest complaint by many is the fashion in schools to tell minors that they can decide what gender they are, even on a daily basis, and even that they can "gender"themselves as a rock or iguana or a robot. Certainly my nephew has be instructed in this way in his public school on Long Island.
If the matter were only one concerning physically mature adults, I expect that much of the blah-blah would go away.
Do you prefer schools that tell children that silly fucking fairy tales are true?
If so, I blame adult-onset superstition.
The anecdotal parade on the right is not the facts on the ground. But folks here don't know any teachers and haven't been on campus in years so they jump up some nutpicking to a generalized phenomenon.
Some teachers are doing what you say, others are saying you can't choose anything about your gender or sexuality.
The right is the ones rolling authoritarian populist because they see an outgroup to target, and that brings in the votes from a certain set of people.
I'm not sure why ignoring childhood development is supposed to be a good thing.
I fail to understand how interrupting natural childhood development is a good thing.
Of course you do. You're ignorant and unqualified.
When have clingers acted in that manner?
Related: You can't reason with bigotry, superstition, or belligerent ignorance.
From the comments claiming being transgender is the illness, the blah-blah-blah would continue if only adults were at issue.
The focus on children is not unlike the debate about sports or bathrooms and reminds me of how abortion opponents used partial-birth abortion as a wedge issue. This law is not about legitimate concern over children (even though there are legitimate arguments for and against some gender-affirming care for kids). It's about creating a wedge to achieve the end goal of delegitimizing transgender people.
Very wrong. For many on the other side, it is a question of preventing permanent harm to children. They turn 18, and want to transition? Fine. They are a girl starting to get her periods, looking around and seeing that she doesn’t have a perfect butt, or perfect tits, etc, and seeing that boys don’t face those issues (they face different ones), and undergoing permanent sterilization to hopefully solve their problems? A lot of girls go through this. Most come to terms with being a woman by the time they are 18. Those who transition before then never have the chance.
Remember - the sterilization is permanent.
Girls wanting to have perfect bodies is not gender dysphoria.
Girls wanting to have perfect bodies is not gender dysphoria.
At least you admitt it is gender dysphoria. Not something they were born with.
But nobody said this is about body awareness. It is one possible trigger to seeking a change. But as you say, it is a mental health issue. As such continuing with mental health treatment will not harm the patient until they reach the age of 18.
But all of this is why we have a representative govt. The people create the laws THEY want to live under. NOT come under the rule of the un-elected black robed Oracles.
You aren't born with gender dysphoria. But the clinical experience of those with gender dysphoria suggest gender identity is a largely immutable trait (be it born or acquired).
Wanting to have a perfect female body is not a trigger for a girl's gender dysphoria. Gender-affirming care is one part of mental-health treatment for gender dysphoria. You are not qualified to say whether denying such care until 18 will not harm the patient.
"But the clinical experience of those with gender dysphoria suggest gender identity is a largely immutable trait "
Gender Dysphoria in Children
"ABSTRACT: Gender dysphoria (GD) of childhood describes a psychological condition in which children experience a marked incongruence between their experienced gender and the gender associated with their biological sex. When this occurs in the pre-pubertal child, GD resolves in the vast majority of patients by late adolescence. Currently there is a vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD in children. This new paradigm is rooted in the assumption that GD is innate, and involves pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists followed by the use of cross-sex hormones—a combination that results in the sterility of minors. A review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of “First do no harm.”"
Essentially what the treatment currently being pushed does is make the gender dysphoria permanent, rather than curing it.
My comment was not about children, but rather about the general concept of gender identity. If this paper is to be believed (*), it only suggests gender dysphoria is being over-diagnosed in kids.
(*) The paper does not appear to be peer-reviewed from a recognized publication.
We're regressing back to 'you'll get over it.'
Weird, it's formatted like a peer reviewed scientific article, with an abstract and a big list of references. But it's hosted in HTML on an organization's page, not a scientific journal....
And who is this "American College of Pediatricians" anyways.... :
Oh. So it's complete BS.
It's just another wingnut separatist organization, trying to maintain relevance for conservatives as the marketplace of ideas and culture war make clingers less relevant and consequential every day in modern, improving America.
That's weird. Don't your minds get blown whenever a trans man gets pregnant?
A skim of the Michigan Supreme Court pronoun order comments suggests that this is not, in fact, a widely held position on this site.
Are you confusing being permitted to undergo surgery/hormone treatments with being permitted to dictate to others that they pretend the treatments actually changed your sex?
Brett, you don't want to call adults by the pronoun they want to be called. You want to call them mentally ill, and yet forbid coverage of their treatment by medicaid etc. Not to mention raging about bathrooms on behalf of women.
And now you claim no hostility to adult transgenders.
Sure, dude.
Pronouns communicate information about the person they're used for. If you demand that somebody use a pronoun that communicates information they know is false, you're demanding they lie.
And that something is the person's SEX, not their 'gender'.
Why do you think transgenders get their bodies altered? Because it IS about pretending to be the opposite sex, not gender.
Would you morons stop using 1984 as an instruction manual? Because that's what this is all about: Trying to establish that words mean what YOU want them to mean, no more, no less.
You're conflating civility with coercion.
I can believe that as a matter of courtesy I should use another's preferred pronouns. I can also believe that nobody should be punishing someone for not doing so, but most specifically government. No one has a "right" to have government compel how another person speaks--obvious caveat about direct threats of violence etc.
Yes, using a preferred pronoun is about being civil (as opposed to an ahole).
If you're my employee and you insist on being an ahole to co-workers, or worse, clients, you won't be around long.
Can the government compel you to not be an ahole? Generally no. Except in schools, which I think is the actual topic here. And I think it's pretty well established that governments can enforce civil behaviour in schools.
I think courts and official records should go with accurate over polite, every last time. And I'm sick and tired of being told it's just courtesy to humor pathological delusions.
Yeah, tell O'Brien he's holding up five fingers, it's the polite thing to do.
The Michigan decision did not "dictate to others that they pretend the treatments actually changed your sex." They are about judges being required to use the pronoun that corresponds to the person's gender identity.
Your characterization of the Michigan decision confirms Noscitur's point.
Legislatures are the ones who have the authority and responsibility to regulate the medical profession.
Not the preferred nomenclature, dude.
Bernard, has covid not learned you anything?
Dr's are just as apt to ignore science and push a political agenda, as any politician. How many Doctors make a plush living preying on insecure women because their blouses "just don't hang right".
Dr Frankenstien is perfectly happy, loping off penises and breasts, just to make a buck. It makes sense to at least have the patient old enough to consent to elective surgery.
We certainly learned that people will believe that deadly airborne viruses are like a headcold and that vaccines are designed to murder most of the population of the Earth. Such people also have opinions about doctors and trans people.
And my original point was that I don’t think for a second that these bans have been thoroughly vetted and grounded, or carefully debated.
"Only doctors/laws that I agree with are thoroughly vetted and grounded, everything else is junk science!"
How about we practice some caution when the stakes are as high as sterilization and increased rates of suicide? Maybe? Let's have some actual science lead the way instead of bernard's "The Science" cult.
" only if the laws"
Sorry, Dave. But once the law is on the books, it is the place of the courts to adjudicate relevant disputes, even if people think that the law was passed in a half-assed manner
Interesting that it's the laws *against* these surgeries, not the surgeries themselves, which are called experimental.
That's because they're not.
STATES RANKED BY EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT
(territories included; 52 jurisdictions ranked)
HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA
Kentucky 44
Tennessee 34
COLLEGE DEGREE
Kentucky 48
Tennessee 40
ADVANCED DEGREE
Kentucky 37
Tennessee 36
GENERAL
Kentucky 45
Tennessee 41
Carry on, clingers . . . so far as half-educated, bigoted, superstition-addled conservatives can manage, anyway.
Some things are so ridiculous that only the most heavily educated can believe them.
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of Education-Disdaining Conservatives
I had a feeling this day would come . . .
Today in Supreme Court History
United States v. Peck, 102 U.S. 64 (decided October 1, 1880): parol evidence (i.e., evidence outside the four corners of the contract) admissible to show that contract for providing wood and hay to army contemplated that hay would be cut in the area (supplier was unable to do that and government had others provide it from far away and charged him for the extra expense)
United States v. Carll, 105 U.S. 611 (decided October 1, 1881): can’t convict someone passing a counterfeit currency when the indictment didn’t mention that he knew it was counterfeit
Did Blackman or someone else forget to extend the auto-posting, or were the irrelevant discussions under each finally too annoying? Blackman has posted surprisingly little (excluding the Today in Supreme Court History posts and his 9/11 remembrance which might have been automated) in August and September; only three posts about Trump disqualification and the officer/office stuff in mid September, and one about the death of James Buckley in August.
The previous October 1st post was about Rehnquist's birthday; it's also Jimmy Carter's 99th birthday today.
Resting up for a big opening day?
Auto post program was embarrassed by the insipid movie reviews.
Maybe these guys are worried about getting run off legitimate campuses and have become more careful about low-quality scholarship?
Everyone's a critic.
Why can't we all just love each other?
Wow this is a lotta comments for regulating things that are none of your business.
"Yeah!" says the other side.
"You are situational assholes, too."
Some of us want what is best for children, even when they're not our children.
This is a strange and confusing concept to leftists.
'WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST'
When you try to force others to accommodate your insane 'beliefs', it's no longer "none of their business".
Wait'll you hear about religion.
Wow this is a lotta comments for regulating things that are none of your business.
Because safeguarding children from harm is not the business of a civilized society.
The insanity there isn't difficult to spot.
In general, preliminary injunctions are inappropriate for novel constitutional questions. They are appropriate when the constitutional outcome is clearly established based on existing precedent. New precedent belongs on the regular docket, not the shadow docket.
Day 1: Transgender surgeries on minors don't exist - that's a conspiracy theory and a hate crime to say, should be banned from saying this and prosecuted & FBI raided.
Day 2: Transgender surgeries on minors are a fundamental Constitutional right. Always has been, bigot.