The Volokh Conspiracy
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Donald Trump Should be on the Ballot and Should Lose
In a prior blog post, I argued that Donald Trump should be kept off the ballot for the 2024 presidential election because of the Insurrection Clause of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. I have now changed my mind and have concluded that since Trump was not "an officer of the United States" on January 6, 2021, the Insurrection Clause does not apply to Trump.
I am also much more doubtful than I was a week ago of the correctness of the University of Pennsylvania Law Review law review article by William Baude and Michael Paulsen, The Sweep and Force of Section Three, which argues that former President Trump is disqualified from running again for President. A draft law review article taking issue with Baude and Paulsen, co-written by Josh Blackman and Seth Barrett Tilman, entitled Sweeping and Forcing the President into Section 3: A Response to William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen makes a good case that what happened on January 6, 2021 was not an "insurrection" and that the Baude/Paulsen reading of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is wrong. I think Josh Blackman and Seth Tillman are more likely right than not. At a minimum, this is a very muddled area of constitutional law, and it would set a bad precedent for American politics to not list a former president's name on election ballots given the confused state of the law surrounding Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Let me, however, be very clear about one thing. I am a Never Trumper. I will vote for any Republican in the primaries over Trump or, if necessary for the Democratic Party's nominee for President over Donald Trump. I am a Never Trumper because of the former President's behavior on January 6, 2021 when he stirred up a crowd, started a riot on Capitol Hill to disrupt the counting of electoral votes, and then declined to call off the riot either with a Tweet or by calling out the National Guard. Instead, Trump watched the riot unfold on television approvingly as the rioters called out "Hang, Mike Pence." At the time, he was still the nation's Law Enforcement Officer in Chief with a constitutional obligation to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." Trump's failure to stop the riot and the efforts he knew of to hang his own Vice President was nothing less than a High Crime and Misdemeanor.
As a result of Trump's behavior that day, I wrote an op-ed supporting his second impeachment for the commission of a High Crime and Misdemeanor. I urged that Trump be disqualified from ever holding any federal office again. The Senate foolishly failed to convict and disqualify Trump, and so now he is running for re-election. Let me make it crystal clear that I will vote for any Republican and for any law-abiding Democrat, including certainly Joe Biden, in 2024, if Trump is the Republican nominee for president.
Trump is loathsome, but because of a technicality in the drafting of the Disqualification Clause of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Clause does not apply to Trump. The Disqualification Clause applies to four categories of people who have previously taken an oath to uphold the Constitution and have given "aid or comfort" to an "insurrection": 1) officers of the United States; 2) members of Congress; 3) members of state legislatures; and 4) state "executive or judicial officers." On January 6, 2021, Trump was obviously not: 1) a member of Congress; 2) a member of a state legislature; or 3) a state executive or judicial official. That leaves only the question of whether former President Trump was "an officer of the United States."
This is a harder question than it may appear because the term "officer of the United States" seems colloquially to apply to the president. The presidency is an "office," and former president George Washington called himself an officer of the United States. The Senate in debating Section 3 of the 14th Amendment was of the view that the president is an officer of the United States. In my foolish youth, I once argued mistakenly in print that the President is an "Officer of the United States." See Steven G. Calabresi, The Political Question of Presidential Succession, 48 Stanford Law Review 155-175 (1995). Thirty-three years of academic research and writing on the presidency has persuaded me that the words "officer of the United States" are a legal term of art, which does not apply to the President.
The Commission Clause of Article II, Section 3 imposes a duty on the President: "he "shall" i.e. must "Commission all the Officers of the United States." (emphasis added). This is done by the President signing a document called a commission formally appointing executive and judicial branch officials to their offices. No President has ever, either before or after, the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment commissioned himself. Why? Because the President is not technically "an officer of the United States."
Traditionally, the King in Great Britain commissioned all of that country's executive and judicial officers who were distinguished from Members of Parliament. See Generally Steven G. Calabresi & Joan L. Larsen, One Person, One Office: Separation of Powers or Separation of Personnel?, 79 Cornell Law Review 1045-1157 (1994). To the Framer's ears, officers were always executive or judicial while Members of Parliament were elected to the House of Commons or inherited a seat in the House of Lords. Under the Constitution, the King is replaced by the President who has some but by no means all of the British King's powers and duties. It is the President -- who is elected, like members of Congress, -- who the Constitution empowers to commission officers of the United States. And, Presidents never commission themselves even though "shall" means "must" and "all" means "all" in the Commission Clause, just as Professor Akhil Reed Amar argues very powerfully and intratextually those words have that same meaning in Article III of the Constitution. "A Neo-Federalist View of Article III: Separating the Two Tiers of Federal Jurisdiction, 65 Boston University Law Review 205 (1985). I drank the Kool-Aid on "shall" meaning "must" and "all" meaning "all" from Professor Amar in my very first law review article. Steven G. Calabresi, The Structural Constitution: Unitary Executive, Plural Judiciary, 105 Harvard Law Review 1153-1216 (1992) (with Kevin H. Rhodes). If "shall" means "must" and "all" means all in Article III, which I think it does, then those same words mean the same thing for intratextual reasons in the Commission Clause. Forty-six Presidents of the United States have construed the Commissions Clause as not obligating them to commission themselves because presidents are not technically "officers of the United States" all of whom are appointed not elected.
Which brings us to the Appointments Clause of Article II: "[The President] shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law:". Here again the phrase: "Officer of the United States" is used to describe appointed persons and not elected persons like the Members of Congress or the President. The Appointments Clause thus bolsters the implication of the Commissions Clause. Presidents are not, technically, Officers of the United States" as that phrase is used as a legal term of art in the Constitution.
Finally, consider Article II, Section 4. It provides that "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." Note that the President and Vice President are mentioned –alone and separately from – "all civil Officers of the United States." That is in part to make clear that the President is impeachable, unlike the King of Great Britain, but it is also because the President and Vice President being elected like Members of Congress, are not technically "Officers of the United States."
Members of Congress are, as Professor Amar has argued elsewhere, ineligible to be put in the line of succession to the presidency because they are not appointed Officers of the United States in the event of a dual vacancy in the presidency and the vice-presidency. Vikram D. Amar & Akhil Amar, Is the Presidential Succession Law Constitutional?, 48 Stanford Law Review 113 (1995). The Presidential Succession Clause empowers Congress in the event of a vacancy in both the presidency and the vice presidency "to declare[] what Officer shall then act as President." The word "officer", read in the context of Article II, where the Clause appears, means "appointed Officer of the United States" and not elected Member of Congress or elected Speaker of the House of Representatives. The Amar brothers thus reach the correct conclusion that it is unconstitutional to put Members of Congress in the line of succession to the presidency. For one thing, doing that would allow for a change of party in the presidency in the event of a dual vacancy in both the presidency and the vice presidency. Are not the Amar brothers right that Secretary of State Antony Blinken is a more plausible successor to President Biden and Vice President Harris than is Speaker of the House of Representatives Kevin McCarthy?
At this point, I think I have clearly shown that the term "Officer of the United States" is a legal term of art in the Constitution whose meaning differs from the colloquial sense in which George Washington called himself an Officer of the United State or which members of the Senate relied on when they enacted Section 3, of the 14th Amendment. Is it possible that "Officer of the United States" means something different in the 14th Amendment than it meant in the original Constitution? The answer is "no" because the phrase is a legal term of art, and the drafters of Section 3 had the burden of specifying clearly that they meant for the President to be disqualified from office as well as appointed "Officers of the United States." When a draftsman uses a legal term of art like Bill of Attainder, Ex Post Facto Law, or Officer of the United States, a court should assume that it must engage in intratextualism, see Akhil Reed Amar, Intratextualism,112 Harvard Law Review 747 (1999). A Clause appearing in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment presumptively means the same thing there that it means in the Commissions Clause of Article II, Section 3; in the Appointments Clause of Article II, Section 2; and in the Impeachment Clause of Article II, Section 4. Q.E.D.
So, Trump's name should appear on election ballots in the 2024 presidential election, but I strongly urge my fellow Americans to vote against Trump, almost no matter what else is the alternative.
[UPDATE from Eugene Volokh: Because of some technical problems, Steve Calabresi couldn't post this item himself, so it was originally posted for him by Jim Lindgren; I've since revised it to go under Steve's byline, but it was of course Steve's material all along.]
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I don't care if he is an officer of the United States. It seems reasonable.
What is not reasonable is this is obviously just attempt #307 of insidious use of the government's power turned against a political opponent. If it were a real deal, his supporters would concede he is badly in the wrong. They don't.
And his opposition continues, not persuading, but preaching to the choir and attempting to use tricks to disable their opponent.
I've said it before and will again and again. There is a threat to democracy here, but it isn't the stupidities of January 6. It is this massive assault turning the investigative power of government against a political enemy, for year after year, tact after tact. One fails, move on to the next. Tremulously proud as this or that one can be full bore political with no concern for the 4th or 5th. Send all the info you gathered down to the state, just in case you fail to git 'im.
Oh, they're busting attorney-client privilege. No matter we've been told how holy and inviolate it is. Need to git 'im.
Nevermind that rule exists not really to protect the common yokel, but to stop the king from hassling his political enemies.
The rule failed in the face of its real purpose! So did half a dozen others fail, rules not really to protect yokels, but to stop investigations into political enemies.
To the people of the future, in more calmer, detached times. I don't know what else to do. There is some madness of the crowds going on here.
All it does is show the wisdom of the Founding Fathers in including this stuff in the first place. And that short term political soulless hacks will try to work around it for dishonorable reasons, reasons the Founding Fathers, learning from disgusting and terrible human history, tried to foreclose it.
Trump is a shit, throwing shit to believers just because it attacks the demonic enemy. Who attacks their own demonic enemy back.
Maybe if you weren’t such assholes, such things wouldn’t arise.
That Donald “Lock her up!” Trump deserves all this goes without saying. You can attack some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t attack all of the people all of the time.
I love the idea he should run again. And be defeated, as he, and the Republicans, so richly deserve. I know, because I said it last week.
But the American People, and their Constitution, do not. Please stop, and all octogenarians retire.
'Who attacks their own demonic enemy back.'
ie self defence.
"and all octogenarians retire."
But even Nancy Facelift is going to run again
Kinda makes these airy generalizations about age seem not too relevant when the rubber hits the election, eh?
I don't understand your point.
Pelosi should step aside. So she did not get her dream job of ambassador to italy; her time has passed.
No one better kicking around for speaker so this is not a good idea.
"Trump is a shit"
And so is Biden. Now what?
Trump isn't an octogenarian, he's 77.
same difference.
his brain is rotten and his moral sense never existed.
Honestly, Trump's not that far behind Biden in mental deterioration. Even if he IS behind him. He's been showing his age in campaign stops recently.
Seriously, we need an upper limit for age of office holders, to go with the minimum age. Maybe once both these guys are out of the way, and the current generation of gerontocrats in Congress have finally stroked out, we can get to work on that?
So you believe it's perfectly fine for public officials to run their own private servers for public communications with zero oversight and accountability or to run foreign policy over who is providing you and your family, in your joint accounts, the biggest bribes. Gotta love the leftist complete lack of standards and values.
Lock them both up.
How hard was that?
"Fine," like "okay," is not a legal term. If you want to make it illegal to do so, go ahead, but it wasn't when Hillary did so and isn't now. So whatever your point is was stupid.
Accepting bribes would of course already be illegal. Now you just need to find one shred of evidence this ever happened.
It's like nobody gives the tiniest shit about the people whose votes he wanted to disenfanchise by overturning the election and their quite reasonable concern about him being given a chance to end up in a position to try it again, or to actually win and have power over democratic processes he clearly has no belief in.
If it were a real deal, his supporters would concede he is badly in the wrong. They don’t.
Yikes! I guess that proves this nation includes communities where you can say that with no one in sight to straighten you out. I would not have thought that was possible.
I don't get why you think this? I feel like his supporters have made pretty clear that they just don't care.
> Is it possible that "Officer of the United States" means something different in the 14th Amendment than it meant in the original Constitution? The answer is "no"
I think the best law professors are the ones that declare any counterargument literally impossible. You just go into court, lay out the truth, and win. Easy-peasy.
> the drafters of Section 3 had the burden of specifying clearly
Yes, it's even easier when your opponents' arguments are impossible *and* you place the burden of proof on dead people. Surprisingly, I think the courts will require all living parties to make their cases and place no burden on the dead.
> Members of Congress are, as Professor Amar has argued elsewhere, ineligible to be put in the line of succession to the presidency
I see you're playing in left field today. You're suddenly talking about a statute passed much later, claiming it's unconstitutional, and using the reasoning (which hasn't been litigated) to support your newfound interpretation. That's bizarre. You can't work backward like that.
The 14th Amendment thing is just a distraction at this point, but I too raised an eyebrow over Calabresi's odd handwavey reasoning on this point.
I don't know if it is true that the relevant people in 1866-68 thought the President was an "officer of the United States" who would be covered by the "disability" imposed by Section 3. That would seem to be a question of fact for the Court to determine.
But if the Court were to find sufficient evidence that the relevant people in 1866-68 did think the President was an "officer of the United States" who would be covered by the "disability" imposed by Section 3, then what the term had meant throughout recorded history before that time is simply irrelevant.
The meaning of constitutional text does not change after its adoption any more than it can change because of what it meant in the past.
I prefer to go with what the text actually says over what some randos might've thought it said at some point in the past (even if those randos had a hand in drafting it).
The states ratified the language, not the mental state of some congressional staffer.
Er, the meaning of words changes over time. Fact.
Are you sure that's an appropriate standard of interpretation for a constitutional document?
We should use the definitions of words in use at the time of drafting, I agree.
But that's like, anyone alive at the time. The "intent" of various contemporary elites doesn't automatically win out. The natural understanding of the text (at the time) is what counts.
"even if those randos had a hand in drafting it"
By definition, the drafters of a text aren't "randos". They're the drafters.
Do you claim to know the minds of all the drafters and ratifiers?
If you’re going on just a couple opinions then you’re cherry-picking.
I am a Never Trumper because of the former President's behavior on January 6, 2001...
Calabresi here is being disingenuous (or perhaps just lying to himself). He has been railing against Trump since before the 2016 election and has never stopped. Had the events of January 6 never happened, Calabresi would still be railing against Trump, would still be voting for the Democrat nominee over him, and still be urging Americans to do the same.
I wouldn’t lean too hard on this point. He could easily have meant that J6 was merely “the first among the many” reasons why he’s a Never Trumper.
It’s a fine example, however, of how maddening the English language can be. Here we are talking about the precise and technical meaning of the word, “officer”, and at the same time acknowledging that the word “because” can be read very expansively!
But that’s why the concept of a “term of art” is so valuable. The meanings of words in English can be read so broadly that we need a special modifier to indicate when we mean to use the precise and narrow sense of a word, and not the common, broader sense.
I spent a large part of my IT career defining data models, and I have the scars to prove that wrangling English terminology is not for the timid.
He could have meant that, but I'm not so sure about that "easily". At the very least, he should have admitted to being opposed to Trump long before Trump did anything as President to justify that opposition. Before he even WAS President. This isn't about January 6th, it's about Trump.
2016 Statement Originalists Against Trump
"We urge all like-minded Americans to vote their consciences in November. And we call on them, through their voices and their ballots, to deny the executive power of the United States to a man as unfit to wield it as Donald Trump."
"Prof. Jonathan H. Adler
Case Western Reserve University School of Law
Prof. William Baude
University of Chicago Law School
Prof. Josh Blackman
Houston College of Law
Prof. Steven G. Calabresi
Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law
...
Prof. Ilya Somin
Antonin Scalia Law School, George Mason University
..."
I am alive now because I was not on Flight 93.
Is that the only reason I am alive now?
I want to commend Professor Calabresi for his willingness to be open-minded on the academic question. To do so publicly takes a measure of courage, and humility. That I appreciate very greatly. We need more of both.
Yes, he's very brave and humble to publicly reiterate a position he has held since 2016: that Donald Trump should not be president.
“Donald Trump should not be president.” And Calabresi is correct about that.
In an ideal world, I'd agree. The number of people who'd be a better choice for President than Trump numbers in the millions. Several of those millions are actually running for the job.
The likelihood at this point is that, some time next year, ALL of those millions will have been excluded from consideration, and it will be down to Trump vs whichever outright enemy of constitutional government the Democrats puke up. Just as we were stuck with that choice in 2016, and in 2020.
I don't like that this keeps happening, I haven't seen a Presidential election where I actually LIKED any of the candidates on the ballot in 20 years now, and in the elections prior to that where there were candidates I liked, they had no chance of winning. Our political system is very efficiently keeping off the ballot everybody who a sane country would make its leader.
That doesn't mean the proper response is to say, "Screw the lesser evil, I'm voting for Cthulhu!"
I should say, that if Calabresi had written that Trump should lose the primary, I'd have no complaint at all. He should.
Yeah, you sure sound like a good person here.
You CHOOSE to believe a lot of stuff about the world that is not true, and about the people who disagree with you that is likewise nonsense.
So yeah, you can write a long discussion about how your delusions are forcing you to choose Trump. But that's not about the country, that's about you and who you are.
In an ideal world, dipshits would avoid voting for a narcissistic maniac hellbent on becoming President again just to try and nullify his criminal liabilities and destroy his personal enemies to the detriment of law, order, and national security.
In the real world, you're going to vote for whomever has an "R" next to their name (even if it's Trump again) because you're an unprincipled piece of shit who barely even pays lip service to the lie that he cares about the Republic as a whole.
He hates who you hate, and he encourages you to believe the idiotic conspiracy theories you desperately want to believe. You'd vote for him if he personally murdered the entirety of Congress on live television, whilst simultaneously coming here to complain that the libs just didn't offer a good enough candidate.
First off, you can basically forget voting for anybody who isn't a narcissist, for President. Only narcissists think they're the right guy for the job.
You can forget voting for somebody who isn't hellbent on being President, too; They drop out early, and don't end up on the ballot.
"just to try and nullify his criminal liabilities"
The only reason he HAS criminal liabilities is that he went and ran for President, and had the bad taste to win. That put a target on his back, and he knows it.
"In the real world, you’re going to vote for whomever has an “R” next to their name (even if it’s Trump again) because"
Because the Democrats are basically guaranteed to puke up somebody worse, much worse. If you nominated Tulsi Gabbard, and she was running against Trump? Yeah, her I might vote for, I disagree with her about some stuff, but she's not insane, I've actually seen her change her mind about stupid stuff.
Not being insane got her run out of the party. The Democratic party, as presently organized, is incapable of nominating anybody who isn't an existential threat to the country. You can't tolerate candidates who don't want to fundamentally alter the country into something I wouldn't recognize as America.
You’ve admitted Trump’s a malignant unprincipled crooked narcissist, but you still insist ondefending him on those terms rather than with that as a given, and lame defences as well, just lazy generalising adages.
‘who isn’t an existential threat to the country.’
An existential threat to your privelege and power. That's why you support someone who tried to overturn an election he lost, which YOU lost.
Whatever, dude. Try and tell us that you won't vote against whomever has an "R" next to their name. Blind partisanship is a two-way street, regardless of whatever high-sounding language you may try to wrap around it.
Interesting you didn’t say vote D but rather vote against R.
But of course that’s right for you. I have never once seen you say anything about why vote for Republicans, you just love to argue with those who call them out.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I would have been ecstatic if I could have voted for a non-deranged Republican for President in 2016 or 2020.
The only way Trump wins is if he's "the only alternative".
The potential Cthulhu candidacy is why I won’t support an age limit regardless of my belief that Biden and Trump are too old.
" I am a Never Trumper because of the former President's behavior on January 6, 2001 when he stirred up a crowd, started a riot on Capitol Hill to disrupt the counting of electoral votes, and then declined to call off the riot either with a Tweet or by calling out the National Guard. "
Point 1: Objectively, Trump did NOT start a riot; The riot was pre-planned by others, (With court convictions to confirm this!) and began on schedule while Trump was still speaking at the Mall.
You could claim that he 'incited' it, in some sense that DOESN'T satisfy the legal standard for "incitement", but on that level, you could claim a pretty substantial faction in the Democratic party were responsible for the hugely more violent and destructive, and equally insurrectionary BLM/Antifa riots. Want to go there?
Point 2: He offered the National guard, in advance, and was turned down. And if he'd sent them in anyway? The same people screaming for his blood now would have claimed he was sending them in to finish the job.
But regardless, inaction, even kicking back and watching your enemies have a bad day after turning down your help, isn't "aid and comfort".
Point 3: Yeah, he actually did call on the rioters to go home, and by tweet, too. Pretty promptly, yet; The rioters didn't break through the police barricades until 1:30, didn't actually break into the Capitol until shortly after 2. Trump's first Tweet asking the rioters to be peaceful came at 2:38, about a half hour after that happened. About 3:30, he actually did send in the National Guard, despite Congress having rejected his earlier offer.
The only reason he could send them in anyway was that he'd had them ready despite being turned down.
Was Trump's response to the riot the Platonic ideal riot response? No, certainly not.
Was it insurrection, rebellion, or giving aid and comfort to the nation's enemies? Like hell it was.
'the Platonic ideal riot response?'
I love this. The Platonic ideal riot response for Trump was inciting it then hanging back to maintain deniability while waiting to see if it would actually work, whether it be making Pence vote the way they wanted or by sparking a wider uprising, or both. It's not exactly a byzantine machination.
The rally was announced by traitortrump
it was paid for by his campaign
it was organized by his campaign
he urged them to go and fight
he refused as they literally chased down his VP, to demand they stop
insurrection planned and instigated by traitortrump
Yes, the rally was announced, paid for, organized. The entirely legal rally, not the riot that was planned by other people who just recently got convicted over it in a criminal trial, and which was started halfway through Trump's speech, by people who weren't attending it.
And, yes, he used perfectly normal political rhetoric, and ALSO said, "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
Brett —
Among other things, you left out that at 2:24 PM Trump sent out a tweet further enraging his already-rioting supporters, that “Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done.”
Also your description of the 2:38 p.m. tweet you linked to is misleading. Trump conspicuously did *not* then call on the rioters to leave the building (he’s not an idiot… he just didn’t want them to leave). Sure, he told them to be “peaceful,” but that was grossly inadequate (and absurd since a continuing occupation of the Capitol could hardly be “peaceful").
At 3:13 Trump sent another text, beginning "I am asking for everyone at the Capitol to remain peaceful," again confirming he was fine with rioters remaining in the Capitol.
He didn’t tell the rioters to leave the Capitol until his video message was posted over 2 hours after the riot began, at 4:17 p.m. That is not “pretty promptly.”
"and absurd since a continuing occupation of the Capitol could hardly be “peaceful”"
That's silly. It's perfectly possible to occupy a building without roughing anybody up. You're using a hyper-expansive definition of "peaceful" that excludes violent activities such as... just standing there doing nothing.
Given media standards for describing George Floyd, BLM and Antifa "demonstrations", even what occurred was mostly peaceful.
When entry to said building was gained through the use of violence, that precludes the entire lie that it was in fact 'peaceful.'
You're a lying idiot.
Have you sought professional help for your anger management issues?
I wouldn't say he is a lying idiot.
I would say he is a disaffected, delusional, bigoted, antisocial, autistic, worthless, replacement-ready Republican . . . and therefore a core element of the target audience of the Volokh Conspiracy.
When Prof. Volokh first thought of this blog, he had Brett Bellmore, BravoCharlieDelta, Bumble, Dr. Ed, and others like them in mind. He arranged them as an audience, sought them as supporters, cultivated them as commenters, stoked their bigotry.
What is published each day at this blog is the predictable, natural, deplorable result.
Is it possible to occupy a building without violence, in the abstract? Yes. Was it realistically possible for the rioters in *this* case to pivot to, and maintain, a peaceful occupation of the Capitol at 2:40 p.m., even in the face of an ongoing, forcible federal response? No.
But more importantly, why are you even arguing this trivial point? The significant point is that Trump did *not* promptly tell people to stop the occupation, and implicitly condoned it multiple times while it was happening. He should get no significant credit for the fact that he tacked on the word “peacefully.” He was still complicit in the occupation (which he apparently tried to take political advantage of), morally if not criminally.
I don't claim Trump's actions weren't despicable on Jan. 6th.
The only thing I will claim is that they did not rise the the legal standard of incitement or insurrection.
And that's the issue to be determined by Section 3, and Section 5.
Yeah I’m not making a claim about 14/3. Just objecting to Brett’s several misstatements.
Yeah, Trump no more incited the attack on the Capitol than Robert E. Lee incited the attack on Gettysburg. In fact, at the outset Lee had ordered his generals not to attack. And you know what, that otherwise mostly-peaceful tour of Pennsylvania was planned to accomplish a peaceful political purpose—to end the war by a negotiated settlement with the Union.
Not saying he didn't incite it for SOME value of "incite", well below the legal threshold for liability.
I am saying that if you lower the bar for incitement that low, an awful lot of Democrats 'incited' riots while Trump was in office.
No, they don't. There isn't a single example of a Democrat doing anything remotely like this. None of them incited riots. They supported a peaceful movement, and they denounced the violence, much of it attributable to the police.
Good points. I think your Point 1 is slightly wrong...Pro-Regime commenters conflate the January 6 Rally with the Riot. I don't know if that is accurate or fair. Trump stirred up the crowd...but any resulting riot would have been easily handled if the Capitol police and other agencies responsible for controlling law enforcement in DC that day had done their jobs in a minimally competent way.
Why would someone -- even a clinger from our can't-keep-up backwaters -- who claims to be a lawyer engage in random capitalization?
It is an expression of disdain for fancy elites with their adequate education and standard English?
A flashing of gang signals among gape-jawed, disaffected culture war losers?
Old-fashioned illiteracy (a companion to old-timey thinking)?
Carry on, clingers . . . so far as ignorance, bigotry, backwardness, superstition, and disrespect from your betters could carry anyone in modern, improving, liberal-libertarian America.
You're going with grammar?
"About 3:30, he actually did send in the National Guard"
Also what's your source for this claim?
The assertion that Trump ordered the National Guard in, on Jan 6th is of course is wrong.
Trump signed off on troops on Jan. 3rd.
On Jan 6th, Pentagon officials didn't seek, and didn't need any further authorization from the president. They redeployed the troops they had already provided to Mayor Bowser, and then sent in more troops.
There was some dithering at the Pentagon over trying to conform with the Posse Commitatus Act, especially after Capitol Hill officials had refused the offer of troops earlier the week.
All this is laid out in the Pentagon's after action timeline, and the subsequent IG's report. Although of course the Jan 6th committee ignores most of the facts in trying to pin blame on Trump because that was what their job was.
A timeline of how the Jan. 6 attack unfolded — including who said what and when
"3:36 p.m.
More than two hours after protesters first breached the Capitol grounds, White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany tweets that Trump has ordered the National Guard to the Capitol."
But, hey, that's famously alt-right NPR. They're just covering for Trump.
Did you consider that *McEnany* might be covering for Trump?
My quick research indicates it was acting Sec of Defense Chris Miller, acting without Trump, who deployed the National Guard on January 6 as the riot occurred. https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a42805284/january-6-national-guard-defense-secretary-christopher-miller/
Fiction.
Once again, he did no such thing.
So, "officers" are those who are appointed to their office by the people's representatives. They are officers of the government.
A very clear and precise term of art, I think. Similar to the distinction between an owner of a business and an executive of the business.
That's probably a bad example, since it's quite possible to be both at the same time.
Yes; even though we might use the term "owner/operator" to indicate that special case, it's not as clear as we need to be here. The two roles are mutually exclusive in this case.
Who gives a rat's ass what some pointy headed pencil necked geek law professor thinks? That he supports SSM tells me all I need to know about this chuckle head. Did he serve with the SEALS like Ron DeSanctimonious? Take Incoming Fire like Hillary Rodman Clinton? March with John Lewis in Selma like Parkinsonian Joe Biden?? Sign the Execution Warrant for a retarded Black Man like William Juffuhson Clinton??
Frank
How is this different from Mel Brooks, as Hitler, doing the Nazi salute and saying, “Heil Myself!”? Discuss.
Well, for one thing, Mel Brooks was funny.
Yes....
See also: "The Limited Sweep and Ineffectual Force of False Analogies: A Brief Reply to Baude and Paulsen"
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4564998
oint 3: Yeah, he actually did call on the rioters to go home, and by tweet, too. Pretty promptly, yet; The rioters didn’t break through the police barricades until 1:30, didn’t actually break into the Capitol until shortly after 2. Trump’s first Tweet asking the rioters to be peaceful came at 2:38, about a half hour after that happened. About 3:30, he actually did send in the National Guard, despite Congress having rejected his earlier offer.
>>>
liar
SO they battled for an hour while people begged the traitor to intervene, then he responds with a tweet
Go look at the video abotu what the officers were going through, you get beaten for an hour and tell me how fast that reaction was
he is and always has been unqualified for the office
>>>>
According to the final report of the January 6 House select committee:
"Here’s what President Trump did during the 187 minutes between the end of his speech and when he finally told rioters to go home: For hours, he watched the attack from his TV screen. His channel of choice was Fox News. He issued a few tweets, some on his own inclination and some only at the repeated behest of his daughter and other trusted advisors. He made several phone calls, some to his personal lawyer Rudolph Giuliani, some to Members of Congress about continuing their objections to the electoral certification, even though the attack was well underway. Here’s what President Trump did not do: He did not call any relevant law enforcement agency to ensure they were working to quell the violence. He did not call the Secretary of Defense; he did not call the Attorney General; he did not call the Secretary of Homeland Security. And for hours on end, he refused the repeated requests—from nearly everyone who talked to him—to simply tell the mob to go home."[187]
Conventionally, the term "liar" requires one to have said something that was actually false, rather than just draw inferences you don't like from objectively true facts.
For examples see any statement by a Democrat and the MSM.
Congress rejecting his earlier offer of National Guard is a complete lie, even by your demanding standard. Trump did not send the National Guard, promptly or otherwise; they were only authorized at 6pm, not 3:30pm.
Given what appear to be the concerns of the creators of the 14th Amendment, does anyone have any insights as to why they would have knowingly excluded former presidents?
Remember that the President was actually chosen by the electors, and they didn't exclude the electors? So, hypothetically, they could have thought that non-insurrectionist electors, if they picked a President who had an insurrectionist history, would only do so if they had a really good reason.
Good point.
"they didn’t exclude the electors"
14/3 explicitly disqualifies people from becoming presidential electors.
Didn't exclude electors from the reach of Section 3; Read the comment I was replying to.
You are right, I misread the exchange.
As I note in a comment below, I don't think the presidency is excluded.
To address why it might though, we should note that the "anti-democracy" motives some (like Prof. Somin) propose are not likely to be why. It is ultimately the People who ratify, and to obey/disobey part of the constitution is to obey/disobey the People. To argue that the human authority behind the text intended to curtail democratic decisionmaking is not to argue that the framers of the text did, it is to argue that the people did.
The 1860s were a really populist era. Republicans particularly. Radical Republicans especially. It is far more likely that the animating concern was disloyal subsets of the people. Any elected office aside from POTUS/VP is chosen by a subset of the American people, some of whom wouldn't have hesitated to put a Nathaniel Forrest or a Jeff Davis in power. As for appointed officials, many (marshals, U.S. attorneys, judges) would be - and sometimes had to be - locally chosen. Secessionists would definitely slip through the cracks, especially with a president (Johnson) friendly to southern interests.
Naturally, it would have seemed much less likely the whole nation would choose a secessionist.
"The whole nation" is a weird way to put it. Did the "whole nation" choose Abraham Lincoln in 1860? No; he was a regional candidate, but other candidates split the opposition and so he won. I doubt that in 1868 anyone would've forgotten about that recent example. And no reason to think something similar couldn't have happened with a unified Southern candidate thereafter. And they would've absolutely wanted to prevent that.
Joe Biden should be on the ballot and should lose. Discuss.
Graphing results of lateest Reuter's poll:
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1702789158320705569
You can't even link to serious white supremacists, just this clown.
You have stated on multiple occasions that you have muted me and yet here you are again. Please keep your word and spare the comments and me your Dumbass responses. I won’t be offended in the least.
So, not being familiar with this dude, I decided to look up why you might think him a white supremacist.
Well, SPLC doesn't like him, but that's hardly reliable, they think everybody to the right of Lenin is a white supremacist.
I really don't know much about the guy even now, besides that he's something of a lunatic, but, geeze, some of this "anti-semitic" symbols stuff is so over the top it's embarrassing anybody would take it seriously.
From Turning Point USA:
Jack Posobiec
Jack Posobiec is the Senior Editor of Human Events, a political news and analysis outlet founded in 1944. Prior to that, Posobiec served as a Washington DC correspondent at One America News Network. Posobiec is a veteran intelligence officer of the United States Navy with multiple deployments including Guantanamo Bay and East Asia. At Guantanamo Bay, Posobiec served as a HUMINT (human intelligence) analyst in the interrogation cell. In 2014, he joined the Office of Naval Intelligence as an officer at the Kennedy Irregular Warfare Center which provided intelligence to Navy Special Warfare and Navy Expeditionary Combat Command .
Posobiec completed his final deployment in 2016 as the Intelligence Director for Navy Expeditionary Forces Command Pacific – Task Force 75. Task Force 75 provides expeditionary intelligence throughout the Indo-Asia-Pacific region as directed by 7th Fleet Commander.
Posobiec has written three non-fiction books: Citizens for Trump: The Inside Story of the People’s Movement to Take Back America, all about the 2016 presidential election, 4D Warfare: A Doctrine for a New Generation of Politics, a handbook on political information operations, and Antifa: Inside the Black Bloc, about his investigations infiltrating the Antifa phenomenon in North America and their history. In 2019, Posobiec was awarded a Lincoln Fellowship by the Claremont Institute. Posobiec is also a supporter of Let Them Live, a nonprofit that saves lives from abortion by supporting women in crisis pregnancies. Posobiec’s life was the inspiration for the graphic novel ‘Agent Poso’ by Chuck Dixon and Brett Smith.
After graduating from Temple University, Posobiec spent 2 years living in China working in international business and learning to speak fluent Mandarin Chinese. Originally from the Philadelphia area, Posobiec now resides in Washington, D.C. with his wife Tanya and their two sons.
In any event the link was to the graphic and was originally posted on Instapundit.
Learning Mandarin?
That’s classic white supremacist stuff there.
Labeling everything or everyone you don't like as racist or white supremacist is as intellectually lazy as you can get. Its the 2020's version of throwing around accusations of being a red or a pinko in the 50's (not that they weren't all reds and pinkos, but it doesn't actually address facts or arguments).
And doesn't convince anyone or anything.
Especially the only thing Pospbeic does is show a graphic of the results of a Reuters poll.
If you don't like Reuters polling just say so, and if you want to call them pinkos then I'll even agree, but their poll is probably reasonably accurate.
Did they teach you nothing about normal interaction and interpersonal communication at autism school?
You are all reflexively defend ing a pizzagating antisemite.
SPLC can be overzealous but maybe read the stuff he’s tweeted and done before you defend this guy.
Where'd you get the idea that I was defending a guy I labeled a lunatic? I'm just saying that the evidence that he's a white supremacist seems a little questionable; The SPLC's word on this topic is well established to be worthless, and most of the rest of it seems to depend on his having "used dog whistles".
'is well established to be worthless,'
By people who are or who defend white supremacists.
See, for instance:
Southern Poverty Law Center Must Pay $3.3 Million After Falsely Naming Anti-Muslim Extremists
Or this:
Liberty Counsel added to defamation lawsuit against SPLC
SPLC doesn't just say 'dude is bad trust us.' They have quotes and events and videos and news articles that are all bad.
This is pure ad hominem, Brett. For a real piece of shit. Fucking hell.
His association with Pizzagate is easy to Google without SPLC.
A most convincing argument. It is also worth noting that the language of Section 3 contains glaring omissions, i.e., neither the President or the Vice President is mentioned (only Electors thereof), and neither is there any reference to members of the federal judiciary (although there is reference to state judicial officers). Could the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment have had in mind that the impeachment process was available for those three categories, and therefore not necessary, or duplicative? I talk about this in a recent article, "The Fourteenth Amendment's Section 3: Is It Impeachment Lite, or a Recipe for Chaos in the Courts?" https://brucewilder.substack.com/p/the-fourteenth-amendments-section
Sure, that's a possibility.
Donald Trump vs Hilary Clinton.
Donald Trump vs Joe Biden.
Saying Trump should not be president overlooks the choices we have had in the last two election cycles.
Until another Reagan comes along, we who value our constitutional republic should vote for Trump's policies rather than his demeaner.
No one who attempts to steal an election should be president, regardless of his policies or demeanor.
Well that leaves out anyone with a "D" next to their name.
They disqualify themselves automatically by daring to oppose our rightful R overlords and steal elections by winning them.
They even sometimes lose elections by getting more votes.
Trump's policies?
Here's an idea: don't nominate someone wholly unsuitable for office, and you won't have to risk your constitutional republic in order to save it.
You should heed your own advice. Had the Dems not nominated Hilary Clinton, they would not have had to cover up her misdeeds by continuing her Russian collusion lie long after it had been exposed. And they would not have to cover up Biden's grifting.
Do you really prefer Biden's costly open borders policy over Trump's?
Do you really prefer Bidens' foreign policy over Trump's?
Do you really prefer Biden's energy policy over Trump's?
Oh, I agree that the Dems should not have nominated Hillary--that is why people like me did not vote for her (or Trump, obviously) in 2016, with the result being that Trump won the battle of negatives.
There's a lot I don't like about Biden, and the blame for that rests squarely on the shoulders of people who nominated a loser like Trump to be the Republican Party candidate. He lost to Joe Biden. How utterly useless do you have to be to lose to "Cheater" Joe Biden? (That moniker refers to his law school career, btw, not to the 2020 election, obviously!)
I don't know what you mean by "costly," and it's certainly not "open borders," but sure.
Yes, of course.
Trump had an energy policy? I don't think mocking Greta Thunberg really counts as a policy.
Did “45” at his “45-iest” ever call for “Regime Change” in Roosh-a like Parkinsonian Joe did? or tell a bunch of Amurican Soldiers what they’ll see “When your’re in You-Crane” https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-biden-appears-to-tell-u-s-troops-they-are-going-to-ukraine Jeezo-Beezo, even Dick Chaney at his Dick Chaney-ist wasn’t as war mongering as this doddering old idiot. If I was the President of a Powerful country and had the President of another Powerful country calling for my execution, I know what I’d do (legally of course)
Frank “Parkinsonian Joe is not healthy for children (especially the children) and other living things”
Wait. What about a former president, like Trump, or a former federal judge, who is now just a person? Did the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment really mean that “No person shall . . . hold any office, civil or military” did not apply to the presidency? Does the plain language “ . . . previously taken an oath . . . as an officer of the United States . . . ” exclude having taken an oath as President? I previously mentioned impeachment, but of course that is not an option in the case of one who is no longer in office.
Their whole stupid argument hangs on "officer of..." being different than "officer under..."
Trump should be on the ballot and people deserve the right to vote for or against him. Legal arguments in favor of keeping him off the ballot are an example of the wishful-thinking/ad-hoc rulemaking that too many modern lawyers believe “laws” to be. In other words, they want the “law” to be whatever they want it to be on a case-by-case basis. Having been a hearing officer at the very lowest level of the bureaucracy and a government litigator for most of my career, I know how terrible this belief really is.
The “law” you refer to is the Constitution.
What it says matters–even if it is not convenient.
Otherwise, what is it? (And, more importantly, if you can ignore the Constitution when it is convenient to do so, what then makes the government we have legitimate? Power?)
I am curious. If Trump is convicted by jury of criminal acts related to the election, would you still think that he should be on the ballot? This is the internet and people flame strangers all the time, but I am not doing that. I would genuinely like to understand your point of view. It's a pretty important philosophical choice for the country since, presumably, we believe in trial by jury as the basis for a lot of other choices and as a general principle it is not good to offer immunity from the law or incentives to ignore it. However, there has been situation like this one in modern history. So what to do here if a jury convicts Trump or others? Allow Trump to run, but ban others who are in the convicted and held office? Allow them all to run? None of them? Welcome hearing more of your thoughts on this.
"I am a Never Trumper because of the former President's behavior on January 6, 2021 when he stirred up a crowd, started a riot on Capitol Hill to disrupt the counting of electoral votes, and then declined to call off the riot either with a Tweet or by calling out the National Guard. Instead, Trump watched the riot unfold on television approvingly as the rioters called out "Hang, Mike Pence." At the time, he was still the nation's Law Enforcement Officer in Chief with a constitutional obligation to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." Trump's failure to stop the riot and the efforts he knew of to hang his own Vice President was nothing less than a High Crime and Misdemeanor."
Did you actually graduate from an accredited law school? Are you *really* this obtuse?!?!?
Starting from the end: "efforts he knew of to hang his own Vice President" -- are you INSANE???
OK, granted you're not an engineer and hence neither know anything about structural strength of a thin wooden board nor weight distribution and mechanical advantages -- but have you ever assembled a bookcase? Ever put too many heavy books on too thin a shelf and had it collapse under the weight? Or anything like that?
You saw how rickety that gallows was -- do you honestly think it would have held Pence's weight? (It barely could hold its OWN weight, and I was waiting for it to come apart....)
As someone who was in the Reagan Administration, you *must* know that the VeeP has USSS protection and that it includes *significant* firepower. Remember this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi#/media/File:Reagan_assassination_attempt_4_crop.jpg
You *really* think the Uzi-armed USSS would permit Pence to be hung? No -- and Trump knew this!
"calling out the National Guard"
Yes, let's send soldiers into the midst of a melee without any idea of (a) exactly what is going on, (b) what the authorities already there are attempting to do, OR (c) any way for them to communicate with said arriving troops. That would be a clusterfuck in dimensions beyond what happened at Kent State in 1970 -- with that given as the classic example of poor leadership, poor planning, and ineffective command & control.
Furthermore, in an unstable situation like this, you have to be VERY careful what you say lest you exacerbate the situation. Had Trump tweeted "We've lost, go home" the response would have been "F*** no, we haven't" and an escalation in the violence.
But that doesn't matter if you hate Trump enough....
So Trump sized up the materials and construction of the gallows assembled, and agonized for hours over just the right words, finally settling on "We love you. You’re very special." without sending any National Guard.
Plenty of non-gallows places to hang someone; I seem to recall Dr. Ed 2 suggesting streetlamps for liberals.
Yes it doesn’t count as a threat or sincere if the gallows aren’t workable.
Well known principle of moron law.
Yeah. As they say, "detached reflection cannot be expected in the presence of an upraised cocktail sword"; A sword is a sword, after all.
Look, a threat? To be sure, exactly as much as a placard that read, "Hang Pence!" No more, though. It was, after all, not a real, working gallows. Just an obvious prop.
They threatened violence *and then did violence*.
Not sure what you think the context would be that's better for your story.
Editor's Note: Dr. Ed is a janitor on a college campus, who apparently couldn't hold down a job as a middle school social studies teacher. He did not "graduate from an accredited law school." He is "not an engineer." He does not know anything about the Secret Service. He does not know anything about crowd control, about stopping a riot, or about any other topic about which he just posted.
But he is good at making up fake stories about Massachusetts, and Maine.
I am open to the question of whether at the time of the 14th amendment was ratified whether the meaning of "Officer OF the United States" included the President.
However Calabresi doesn't even address the even less disputable proposition that the Presidency is not an "Office UNDER the United States", which is used to describe the offices that the oath breaker is excluded from.
He also doesn't address what process is need to determine the process for determine whether the facts of Jan. 6 amount to labeling Trump an insurrectionist.
Under the the Baude self executing section 3 rubric, then Mike Pence became President on Jan. 6th, but nobody is asserting that, because nobody actually thinks that section 3 is self executing.
Relevant to the officer/not an officer debate:
“No person shall… hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State…”
Does anyone suggest that governors’ status as elected, supreme executives somehow mean that they aren’t covered by the words “under any state”? Consequences can be relevant when a reading leads to plainly absurd results, and letting Southern militias come under the control of insurrectionists is clearly incompatible with the reasoning of the amendment. We were certainly not saying "Lets keep the leaders of insurrection out of federal office, and all kinds of state office... except for the one state office where they could do the most damage."
Context is the single biggest indicator of the correct meaning of text, and context (together with absurd consequences) strongly suggests that the presidency is an “officer under the United States” as used in this clause.
Donald Trump apparently disagrees with Professor Calabresi's analysis, having claimed in judicial proceedings to be a (former) officer of the United States. https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Trump-Removal-Request.pdf
Whoops.
So?
This is an almost impossibly stupid argument. I can't believe it was made by someone who graduated high school, let alone someone who teaches law school and is granted a platform like this.
To make just two of countless obvious counterpoints: if you are depending on "legislative history" from 100 years prior to the passage of the amendment while ignoring the "legislative history" of the amendment itself, you're doing it wrong. And if your counterargument to enforcing a protection of the Bill of Rights is that the people can simply vote to enforce those protections, you should be lobotomized.
Congratulations to everyone at Reason/Volokh for further degrading their reputation in their seven-year-long effort to side with a reckless, bigoted fascist at every turn with a nod and a wink without explicit endorsement.
Jesus, the comments are even worse. Two full days of supposedly libertarian-leaning commenters rationalizing their own support for the exact opposite of their claimed preferences, all in service of a fascist bigot who literally tried to overthrow American democracy.
Indeed.
It's the problem of tenure - at some point, a tenured professor loses their mind and nobody can do anything about it. Ask the Federal Circuit.
I am baffled. What makes anyone think that this clause was intended to disqualify just officers, congressional representatives, members of state government from running for office after giving "aid or comfort" to "insurrection", but would have welcomed allowing the President or Vice-President to run again after having supported insurrection? That defies any logic. If their specific choice of wording raises any question, then I would have thought it a reflection of the fact that they considered such a situation to be inconceivable or, more likely, simply thought that their language was inclusive. Either way, the intention of the amendment is clear and it is also in the interests of the country not to have people running for election who have aided insurrection. I find this debate over the wording to be a distraction at best.
The arguments over whether or not to ban Trump from the ballot should stand on something else. This kind of rationale is not in the interests of the country now or in the future regardless of who is in the White House or which party's candidate is the subject of the debate.
Textualism can be pretty annoying sometimes, y'all.
What does elect vs. appoint have to do with anything? The representatives of congress are elected, the Vice President is no longer "elected". So the President is elected and not appointed...so they can't be an officer? Cause presidents appoint officers?
"all Civil Officers" implies not military, and the president is the commander in chief, so they have to be explicitly discussed otherwise, or maybe it was explicitly articulated to make damn sure they're held responsible unlike a king, and if so...then why whouldn't they be for leading an insurrection as well?
George Washington considered himself an officer. Officer isn't capitalized in the 14th amendment...
Doesn't the president hold office? Doesn't the 14th amendment prohibit from "holding office" in the future? What does "office" mean?
Let's check the constitution:
"The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows."
Who holds offices? Let me think, officers.
This is nonsense. I'm not arguing anything other than the fact that the interpretation going on here is ridiculous as is trying to figure out what the words of the founders mean through this type of logic, most of the time.
I guess I agree it's unclear, and setting a precedent could be dangerous, but to argue that it's logical that the president isn't an officer because of logic, textualism, the intent of the founders, seems like it's riddled with issues.
To add to this:
It doesn't say all other officers in the impeachment clause because it says "civil" which doesn't mean military, and the President is the commander and chief of the military, and the President and Vice President need to be discussed separately to ensure that it's clear, and the President is also a military officer at the same time, that logic doesn't really matter here...why impeach the military officer, the executive branch would just fire them...isn't impeachment like...when you can't just fire or remove someone at will? That being said, the 14th makes no such distinction and even says specifically military or civil, it just says office.
In the appointments clause "all other Officers" - who cares...it says other...the President can be an officer, and the "other" officers are "other Officers"...of course the President can't/doesn't appoint themself
If any Provision of the Constitution does not apply to the President, then what's the point of Article 2. And, what would keep Trump from standing on Fifth Avenue and shooting "Prof." Calabresi. At least according to Calabresi, the Due Process Clause (that strange clause that provides a criminal defendant with the protections of due process as they are being prosecuted for their crimes) would not apply to Trump and therefore Trump would be immune from prosecution for even that fictional (though possible were Trump to be the Dictator Calabresi impliedly wishes Trump were) crime. ... In the words of Cicero, Que Usque Tandem Calabresi Abutere Patientiam Nostram.
“And for anyone who values the norms of our Republic, democracy and professionalism that should have been it for him electorally (I get though the current GOP base cares little for all three; if you have goals instead of principles you think “is this 100% in the rule book, can we game this?”).
When you find people doing something inexplicable, you come to a mental fork in the road. You can either go on the assumption that they’re deplorable/bad, or that they’ve been mistreated and are justifiably upset.
Among my die-hard Trumper friends, I do detect a lot of justified anger. They have some legitimate grievances.
I'm not so sure Trump's foes have shown any more value for the norms of our Republic, democracy, and professionalism, than Trump has. Trump being nominated was actually a reaction to a severe decline in all three.
You might say that a lot of people view our government today as a cancer, and elected Trump to be chemotherapy. They didn't do that thinking that he wasn't toxic, they just counted on him being a bit more toxic to their foes.
Or it could be that they incorrectly believe they have justification for being upset, which is not surprising when there's a huge grifting machine telling them those lies.
It's no fair if his supporters can't say "Fuck your feelings" in 2016 but have their feelings respected in 2020. It's no fair if Trump is indicted for even a fraction of his crimes. It's no fair unless he's on the ballot. It's no fair if he doesn't get more votes than his opponents. It's no fair if he's not put in office anyway. It's no fair if he can't ignore the Constitution.
Stupid semantic games over office/officer or whatever are stupid. He should be on the ballot simply to test our Republic and democracy; if he doesn't lose then the Constitution is just Trump Toilet Paper, and if he does lose then our Republic and democracy is reaffirmed, no matter what lies his supporters tell themselves.
Its anger, but its misdirected at the people trying to solve the problems.
Oddly, the same people who think Trumpkins have "legitimate grievances" are the people who will proclaim that BLM stands for "Burn Loot Murder" and that people like Colin Kaepernick and Megan Rapinoe are unpatriotic scum because they criticize the U.S. Only working class whites seem to be allowed to have "legitimate grievances."
It's a messed up situation. In 2016 I was going to vote for Rand Paul, but he dropped out before my state's primary. THAT was messed up!
But anybody who thinks Trump was more of a threat to originalist government than Hillary Clinton is nuts.
I’ve heard the chemotherapy argument; a right wing blogger said that Trump would be the chemotherapy president and Pence would then be the bed rest president.
The problem with that argument is that most of his supporters don’t care about originalist government and that’s not why they voted for him. (Hell, a huge chunk of his supporters rely on anti-originalist social security, medicare, medicaid and other government benefits to survive.) They voted for him because he hates the same people they hate. They’d have voted for Bozo the Clown if he’d promised to own the libs. It’s basically a rage-driven campaign, and, as rage frequently does, it makes people do irrational things.
You might say that a lot of people view our government today as a cancer
If you really thought that, you’d leave. If you just have an inchoate frustration with life, well then you blame government or wokeness or whatever but stick around because you know deep down your problems would follow you wherever.
And owning the libs at least makes you feel like you have a cause.
Part of the trick to anti-anti-Trumpism is comparing Trump alone to a whole mass of people, adding up their sins, and comparing them to Trump’s and saying “see he’s not *that* bad.” Which implicitly admits he is significantly worse than any other single politically powerful figure out there.
"If you really thought that, you’d leave. "
If you really thought that, you'd be trolling, because you follow with " but stick around because you know deep down your problems would follow you wherever."
"The problem with that argument is that most of his supporters don’t care about originalist government"
And NOBODY on the other side cares. That's the thing Calabresi misses: He's contrasting Trump to an ideal President, not to the real world alternative, somebody who shits on originalism.
We're in a shitty situation, the Constitution is well on its way to being nothing more than an empty totem that politicians wave about to justify exercising power over us, and that for a brief period before they just ditch it. Every year they show less inclination to even pretend they're following it.
In this shitty situation Trump was actually the less worse alternative. His term in office may have extended the Constitution's survival by as much as a decade. He didn't improve the situation, to be sure. He just slowed the decay a little. The Democrats aren't going to nominate anybody who'd do anything but point the plane straight down and push the throttle to max.
Trump's supporters didn't have to be originalists to want Trump. They just had to want the power dive reduced to more of an unpowered glide.
…while chemotherapy is painful, it is beneficial, whereas there's nothing beneficial about Trump. He's the cancer.
I do not think it’s a particularly hot take that those who declare that the government is like cancer don’t have the courage of their convictions.
And no, voting for Trump is not a courage of your convictions move.
As Claire Wolfe famously said, "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
Yeah, government is like a cancer in America, but maybe I should pull out an even older quote: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
The evils are still sufferable. Just barely, but still.
“voting for Trump is not a courage of your convictions move.”
Who ever said that is was. Not I. is that comment a bit of gaslighting? Such gratuitous slurs that come out of left field are what destroys credibility in your arguments
Brett, the Constitution has legitimacy for the same reason the British monarchy has legitimacy: Because people believe in it, or at least pretend to. If we woke up tomorrow to find that the English no longer believed in the concept of royalty, King Charles III would become just plain old Chuck Windsor.
And the problem with the Constitution is that it no longer meets people's needs. It was written for a set of conditions that no longer exists. And because the amendment process was intentionally made difficult, we have two options: continue with a system that no longer meets people's needs, or ignore it. And people are going to do what meets their needs, your camelot-like yearning for earlier times notwithstanding.
'not to the real world alternative, somebody who shits on originalism.'
You preferred someone who shits on the country.
Less worse than any of the non-deranged Republicans he defeated in the primary?
Comparing him to a typical Democrat misses the point entirely.
If Calabresi had a scintilla of personal honor, he'd register as a Democrat, much like a lot of Democrats did when FDR arrived.
I'm tired of RINOS championing what they did with Reagan 40 years ago. Back then, they wouldn't have cared that someone had been with Harding....
When you find people doing something [you find] inexplicable, you should seriously consider that it's just you failing to comprehend things.
The only way Trump can lose in 2024 (assuming he's on the ballot) is if the election is rigged.
Ask him yourself!
"And because the amendment process was intentionally made difficult, we have two options: continue with a system that no longer meets people’s needs, or ignore it. "
There is a third option. Call a new constitutional convention and write a new constitution from scratch. But that would be hard work and you don't want to do it.
"but you don’t have to vote for debased Lex Luthor."
Except to continue the DC metaphor, the alternatives to the debased Lex Luthor are Brother Blood and/or Gorilla Grod.
As polarized as we are I doubt there is any such thing as a proposed Constitution that would be ratified by 3/4 of the states.
I think there are plenty of amendments, though, that could get ratified by 3/4 of the states.
And Congress would hate every one of them, which is why you don't see Congress originating amendments anymore: Their preferences for how the Constitution should 'evolve' have grown too different from that of the general population; No changes they want could be ratified, and they'd be opposed to any changes that could be ratified.
Can you give us some examples of amendments you think 3/4 of the states would ratify?
Americans think the government is too old — and wide margins support term limits, age caps, and cognitive tests, an Insider/Morning Consult poll finds
So, 75% public support for age caps for public office.
83-84% public support for term limits for Congress.
80-84% public support for mandatory physical AND mental assessments for public office.
There doesn't seem to be recent polling on a balanced budget amendment, but every poll I've seen on it shows support in the 70's.
The general tenor of popular amendments is that they wouldn't enhance DC's power...
Current electoral map based on most recent Reuter's poll:
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1702789158320705569
You do know that 270 to win lets you create maps, right? Do you have any other source for that being based off the latest polls?
State level polling this far out is fairly pointless, and Reuters doesn't seem to be doing any yet. However, unlike Bumble's link, Michigan and Wisconsin both seem solidly Biden over Trump in what polling exists, and while Pennsylvania polling results are more mixed, the last poll shown in Wikipedia was from June (Trump by one point) preceded by three in 2023 favoring Biden. The Blue Wall would deny Trump victory
just like it did in 2016.You can be a staunch Republican and not a Trump supporter.
I agree with Calabrsi so as far as the the Republican primaries go, other than Chris Chistie , Trump is the last candidate I would vote for.
But when it comes to the General election, well I can't help but think as toxic as Trump is, that he would do less damage than any conceivable Democratic opponent.
You guys complain about evils a lot but never articulate what they are, outside of a vague distrust of liberals.
Liberals aren't going away no matter what you do. Even if you do like hoppy and Ed want and shoot us all, most of your kids'll be liberals, you gonna shoot them too?
Liberals are also partiots, love America, and honor the Constitution.
He explained it. Huge grifting machine telling them lies.
Its lex luther, vs random anonymous president generally.
I’ll tell you what I think the evils are:
-trying to force the middle class and working class into energy poverty.
-trying to make the decision for people about what kind of appliances they can buy, what kind of cars they can drive, and how far from work they can live.
-exploiting vulnerable children whether to make a political point or more sinister reasons.
-trying to pit races against each other rather than trying to continue the progress to a race neutral society.
Trying to make the governments voice, and its sycophants, preeminent by suppressing other voices in the public sphere.
But we can defeat all of those evils within the political process.
Brett did. And use gaslighting right Don, don’t get down in The slop.
Ok thanks. I guess I'll take these one at a time.
Energy: That's obviously not the goal.
Appliances: Really?
Races: I get this one. I'm not going to claim to know the answer. The question is: is this the issue that's going to tear America apart? I don't think it has to be.
Syncophants: Are you complaining about the fact that Trump has his whole own social network? If not then shut up.
Thank you for that. I agree. No need for insurrections.
'trying to make the decision for people about what kind of appliances they can buy, what kind of cars they can drive, and how far from work they can live.'
That's hilarious. We just have to accept the bad legacy decisions handed down to us from dead corrupt money-grabbers who wrecked perfectly good towns and cities and left us with miserable urban designs and a fossil fuel dependency that is wrecking the planet.
‘-exploiting vulnerable children whether to make a political point or more sinister reasons.’
It’s been pretty well established that you guys don’t give a shit about vulnerable children, and use them purely to make arguments like this to justify hate campaigns and cult worship.
'trying to continue the progress to a race neutral society.'
You guys think race is the same thing as racism? Are you stupid or just cynical?
"Energy: That’s obviously not the goal.
Appliances: Really?"
You do know that denial isn't really an argument, and isn't even a very effective tactic when the thing you're denying is going on right out in the open? Sure, they're not trying to pass a law making gas appliances, or ceiling fans, illegal.
They're trying to leverage a law allowing them to set efficiency standards to that end, by pushing the efficiency standards so high that the appliances can't meet the standards.
Not just gas appliances, of course. They're also going after ceiling fans, air conditioning, washing machines, dishwashers. Essentially the approach is to make efficiency the overriding standard, and never mind if the appliances actually function, or anybody who isn't wealthy can afford them.
I suppose it makes sense to prioritize efficiency when you're also pushing to reduce the availability of energy...
Of course it makes sense to prioritise efficency.
You have to deny reality in order to oppose changes in energy usage and consumption to counteract the damage past and current usage and consumption are inflicting. Plus it's fun to see you all turn socialist by complaining how intrinsically unequal society is.
You misunderstand me. I'm not denying it, and in fact I think it's ridiculous. I just can't believe that that's the "evil" that's making you vote for Trump. It's unbelievably retarded to be like well, I don't want to vote for a criminal narcissist but I'm being forced to by appliance policy.
It's seriously deranged.
Yeah, I've given up on that one. Another perfectly good term shot to hell.
Except that every time the Democrats actually nominate somebody, they go looking for the Joker.
Having a false explanation for something isn't understanding, it's a substitute for understanding that just validates your own biases.
Well, you know, if you don't want BLM to stand for "Burn Loot Murder", try not lobbing Molotov cocktails, conducting organized smash and grabs, and killing people. I know that's no fun, but burning, looting, and murdering does get noticed.
Did you really miss the point that hard?
Republicans are going to make protesting illegal.
When you hear an explanation that you don't accept, you should seriously consider that it's just you failing to accept the truth.
Trump lost the election. He and his supporters have spread the Big Lie, that he actually won, to the point of attacking the Capitol to try to stop the actual winner from taking the presidency. Trump cannot fail to be elected; only can elections fail Trump.
Either you believe the Big Lie or you understand my explanation.
Irregardless, you're just begging the question.
That's not missing any point at all. BLM has a track record as a horribly violent organization, though not perhaps quite so violent as Antifa. Complaining about a violent organization having a reputation as violent being racist, is a stupid diversionary tactic, and I'm not playing along with it.
I'd say I'm fine with making violent protest illegal, but it already IS illegal, we just need to put a stop to the selective prosecution that shields violent 'protesters' on the left.
See? Already got the pretext all lined up. The Party of 'Free Speech Zones.'
There is no selective prosecution. Hundreds of left-wing rioters got prosecuted in 2020/2021, and you'll be happy to know (because you're a racist fuck) that they were treated just as bad or worse than the Jan 6 rioters by the justice system.
See? You can't be a Republican and not be a Trump supporter.
'BLM has a track record as a horribly violent organization, though not perhaps quite so violent as Antifa.'
No, they don't.
Neither one of those are organizations in the first place. And the answer to Sarcastr0's question is: yes, you really did miss the point that hard.
The racist part is not insulting BLM. The racist part is in pretending that the only "legitimate grievances" are the grievances of white people.