The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Republicans' Dangerous Plans to Turn the War on Drugs into a Real War by Attacking Mexico
This awful idea is increasingly popular on the right, and has been embraced by several GOP presidential candidates.
Over the last few months, leading Republicans - including most of the party's presidential candidates - have converged on the idea that we should turn the War on Drugs into a real war by attacking Mexico. Donald Trump and others have long said the US should wage war against drug cartels in much the same way as we have against the ISIS terrorist group - a campaign that included large-scale use of both air strikes and ground forces. And similar ideas were reiterated by several participants in the recent GOP presidential debate.
The rise of this idea is one of the most dangerous trends in recent GOP/right-wing politics. It would make the already horrific War on Drugs still worse, and also threatens armed conflict with Mexico - destroying our relationship with a crucial neighbor and our largest trading partner. It is simultaneously cruel, unjust, and stupid.
If, like most libertarians, you oppose the War on Drugs as a whole, you obviously have reason to oppose this massive potential escalation. But even if you take a more favorable view of drug prohibition, you would do well to draw the line at turning the metaphorical war into a real one.
The present decades-long War on Drugs is already a horrific disaster. It kills and imprisons large numbers of people in both the US and abroad, while stimulating organized crime, and doing little to curb harmful addiction. It's a massive infringement on liberty and bodily autonomy. The "war" has also severely undermined both individual constitutional rights and structural constitutional limits on federal power. The current fentanyl crisis - used as a justification for attacking Mexico and other drastic measures - is itself largely a result of the War on Drugs, a predictable consequence of the "Iron Law" of prohibition, under which banning markets incentivizes dealers and users to turn to harder, more potent drugs.
It's unlikely that attacking Mexico will do much to curb drug addiction in the US. Most fentanyl smuggling is conducted by US citizens crossing legal ports of entry, not undocumented immigrants or Mexican cartel operatives. If military intervention succeeds in killing or disrupting some Mexican suppliers, others (including others from other countries) are likely to take their place, so long as there is still a demand for the product. That has been the result of past attempts to interdict drug supplies from Colombia, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. At most, we might get a modest temporary reduction in drug use.
While the benefits of attacking Mexico are likely to be minimal, doing so could easily have huge costs. Obviously, it is almost unavoidable that innocent civilians will be killed or injured in the fighting, especially since drug traffickers are hard to distinguish from the rest of the population. There are likely to be casualties among US troops, as well.
The 1.6 million Americans living in Mexico could potentially become targets for terrorism or retaliation by drug cartels. Here in the US, we could see racist and vigilante violence against Mexican-Americans. At the very least, a conflict with Mexico would predictably inflame racial and ethnic tensions.
Mexico recently became America's largest trading partner. A military intervention would likely disrupt that relationship, seriously damaging both nations' economies.
Attacking Mexico would also destroy America's moral authority in the world. We cannot credibly condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine or a potential Chinese invasion of Taiwan if we are simultaneously invading our own neighbor merely to reduce drug smuggling. Such an action would predictably alienate many of our liberal-democratic allies in Europe and Asia, to say nothing of Latin America.
Perhaps worst of all, an invasion of Mexico would permanently damage our relationship with one of our two most important neighbors (along with Canada). Over the last century, the US has greatly benefited from having generally friendly and cooperative relations with the two nations with which we have long borders. Undermining that is sure to cause all sorts of problems and seriously weaken the overall US position in the world. Among other things, we are likely to have far more cross-border violence. And the Mexican government will have incentives to ally with China and other US adversaries.
Turning Mexico and its people into our enemies won't "make American great again." It would predictably weaken us and strengthen our adversaries elsewhere.
In fairness, Republicans are far from the only ones who deserve blame for the evils of the War on Drugs. That ill-advised conflict has a long bipartisan history, one to which President Biden, among other Democrats, has made plenty of contributions. But attacking Mexico would go well beyond even the worst previous drug war policies.
The best that can be said for Republican enthusiasm for attacking Mexico is that some of the GOP politicians who promote it may be just posturing or would content themselves with a symbolic show of force. Alternatively, they might limit themselves to only the kind of small-scale operations that may be approved by the Mexican government.
But I would not put too many eggs in that basket. If the symbolic show of force or small-scale operation fails (as it likely would), there would be pressure to go further. If invading Mexico becomes a major priority of the Republican base, a GOP president might find it hard to resist that pressure.
At the very least, the increasing acceptance of this idea in GOP circles has moved the Overton Window in the wrong direction. A terrible, previously fringe policy has become the mainstream position of one of our two major political parties. That greatly increases the likelihood it will actually be attempted should that party retake control of the White House in the near future.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Anything that involves 1) using guns and 2) attacking "the other" (particularly of a darker skin color), is a sure winner with the Republican base.
Also one wonders why we Americans, who buy from these "drug lords" and are their livelihood, insist on demonizing them. As a teenager I made sandwiches in the family deli. The customers paid us. Did they try to shoot us? Put us in prison? True, I was giving sideways glances to female customers, but I don't think I was so distracted as to not notice something like that.
Don't know much about history do you?
Last time we invaded Mexico our troops were the darkest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition#/media/File%3AUS_Buffalo_Soldiers_Battle_of_Carrizal.jpg
And it was a Democratic President, progressive idol and enthusiastic racist Woodrow Wilson.
You think 'white' powers using non-white troops in imperialistic military campaigns is anything new? *Irish* soldiers were used to invade foreign countries and suppresse native uprisings for the hated Brits.
He also thinks that selling fentanyl is just like selling deli sandwiches, showing he don't know much about biology either. As the song goes.
Did you break into their homes and restock their refrigerators?
Funny, the Left is all for turning the Ukraine v Russia conflict into a hot war involving us. That is a far riskier strategy.
We should just tax remittances to Mexico 100% and be done with it.
Anything that involves 1) using guns and 2) attacking “the other” (particularly of a darker skin color), is a sure winner with the Republican base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I dunno…Dems seem more gungho about escalating the war with Russia, although them Slavs and Orientals don’t quite fit your ‘darker skin’ factor so I guess that must make it okay.
Are you denying that Russia attacked Ukraine and tried to take it over?
Are you denying that drug traffickers are attacking America?
Anyway I oppose literally invading Mexico, but it sounds like a bunch of empty vague red meat to me anyway, and Ilya has a habit of twisting red meat to making the Repubs look as bad as possible while covering for the Dems. So I'll wait until they look like they'll actually do something and consider what it actually is and then criticize them for it if I think its unjustified.
No, they’re not attacking us. They’re selling to willing Americans. It's a market economy. Are you in favor of central planning where free trade like this can’t happen? Are you a Communist???
I see that you agree with me as to the motivations of Republicans here.
Totally, their hands are completely clean. Model businessmen. Not a hair of a single person who got in their way or they found inconvenient was ever harmed by these fine upstanding Cartels. So funny you doing the moral grandstanding while taking the side of guys who literally dismember children. Oh wait...thats a positive on your side sorry my bad.
PS btw yes in an ideal world I would legalize all drugs and am generally skeptical of prohibition but I’d prefer merchants not flay people in the course of their business.
Are you saying that people who are businessmen in the drug market don't have sacred 2nd amendment rights to keep and bear arms and to defend themselves?
Taking hostages and assassinating rivals has never been within the ambit of self-defense, dipshit.
I guess that much firepower in the hands of private individuals sometimes leads to bad outcomes.
Who'd have thunk!
Congratulations to you both. Mexico has extremely strict gun control.
Which is a major part of why these drug cartels have been able to take over in this first place. Ordinary people lack the capacity to defend themselves.
If you turn people into sheep, you shouldn't be surprised when the wolves come out for dinner.
Like I said. Major firepower in private hands.
So you're proposing to take away people's 2nd amendment rights because they might commit a crime in the future? How Minority Report of you!
All funded by Americans. Meanwhile, not a single member of the Sackler family is in jail.
I see we're back to the objectively 'pro Saddam Hussein' argument against anyone opposing flattening another country and murdering masses of innocent civilians and funneling billions to private corporations of various stripes, perhaps opening a few black sites, a couple of Mexican Abu Ghraibs, years of occupation with a steady stream of US causalties being sentimentally grieved over while Mexican deaths are just statistics, leading to some sort of catastrophic military withdrawal and collapse leaving the cartels in complete control, stronger than ever.
Yes, there's precedent, but that doesn't make it a good idea!
Your goalposts:
-Invading Mexico is better than supporting Ukraine.
-No, rather we should invade because Mexico is attacking us with drug sales
-No, rather we should invade because drug dealers are not good people.
-I totally want to legalize drugs tho
This is quite a shitty gallop.
Well, then we need to shoot the willing Americans.
Well, we need to also shoot the willing Americans.
You're just aching for attention, eh?
No Gaslighto, I am realist.
Part of me wants to say “good riddance” to the druggies who overdose because drugges aren’t good for anything anyway — I don’t know if it is because of their drug use or that they were that way naturally and that’s how they came to use drugs but they are useless eaters and other societies had ways of dealing with them.
The other part of me realizes that their parents and families will not accept the carnage, do not accept the carnage, and demand that the source of the carnage be eliminated. Above and beyond that, we can’t have people high as a kite operating motor vehicles!
I’m reminded of the British experience with Gin in London during the first half of the 18th Century and that did not work out well — and that was with people who didn’t have vehicles and before there was a welfare state.
So repealing the Harrison Act isn’t going to work. Not unless we ignore all kinds of civil rights and involuntarily commit druggies to some sort of “Devil’s Island” for life, where they can use all the drugs they want, but have their liberty to travel eliminated.
And we lack the political will to punish users. That’s how China ended its opium problem after the CCP took over — and it did work. It’s how we got heroin under control in the 1970s — if you were present in a building where heroin was being used, you went to prison, just for that.
Lacking ability to punish users, we have to punish suppliers and that is the Mexicans. In the 1970s it was Miami, in the 1980s it was Maine’s Penobscot Bay and aircraft landing on remote ponds in remote Western Maine — and the DEA has shut all of this down now.
Now it’s people crossing the Mexican border.
Well, we really don’t have a choice — if Mexico won’t police the last 10 miles before Gringoland, we are going to have to do it ourselves. Do not forget WHY we went into Mexico 110 years ago — Pancho Villa and what he had done in the US.
Even permitting the hordes of illegals into the country is an act of war — Mexico’s already declared war on us.
NUKE MEXICO! (At least the remote border area -- it'd keep people out...)
ACHING!
Mexican TCOs account for more than 2000 dead Americans every year - through homicide - and many times that through drugs. And that's surprisingly low, given the 20,000 or so they are known to kill each year in Mexico. But you probably don't care about those little brown people, do you?
Mexico is very quickly becoming a failed state -- I think we should invade, kill or capture the cartel leaders, put those who live in the SuperMax in Colorado, and then let the Mexican government reestablish itself.
And cede the UN a 10 mile buffer along the border which will be under UN control.
You know, I do think all drugs should be relegalized, because the costs to society of prohibition are just worse than the costs of the drugs, and at least the costs of the drugs mostly land on those who use them, the costs of prohibition land on the innocent.
Though our cancerously growing welfare state isn't very good at not forcing the innocent to bear the costs incurred by the guilty, so there is that.
But, yes, Mexico IS a failed state, the drug cartels are largely in charge of the place, they're more powerful than the government there. It's quite possible that if we did successfully beat the cartels, the Mexican people would actually thank us.
I don't think that's reason enough to do it, but it's worth mentioning.
"And cede the UN a 10 mile buffer along the border which will be under UN control."
God, no. The UN actually being in charge of our border is the last thing we need, they'd turn that buffer zone into a new Gaza strip, and then we really WOULD need a mine field on the border just to keep the death toll in border states down.
'the Mexican people would actually thank us.'
Utterly unteachable.
Says the guy who missed the bottom line: I'm against it anyway.
You say a ton of utterly wrong things about Mexico, and fail to learn the lessons of the Iraq war on the way.
Like you gotta get in your crackpot bona fides before you end up somewhere not crazy.
Wait, you think the Mexican government isn't under the control of the cartels? What color is the sky on your planet?
I think it is highly regional, and I think saying basically that we would be greeted as liberators is beyond satire.
Confusingly, AMLO seems to have done a deal with the military. (Or headed that way.)
That you would even entertain that notion shows you’d come round to supporting it if it became mainstream Republican policy, God forbid, touch wood etc.
I can't figure the Mexican people enjoy things the way they are.
That doesn't mean they will appreciate an invasion. As we have well learned.
Especially an invasion from the same people who effectively fund the cartels.
I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. If there were an operation that targets the cartels only and achieves what the Mexican government is clearly unable to, which is a peaceful, quiet life for the locals, I think after some initial trepidation might garner a lot of support.
So an outright, full blown invasion? No, definitely not, but a security or safety zone free of cartel violence? Quite possibly yes. That to me seems like a win-win for all involved.
No, recent history says you are incorrect. Another country bigfooting in to solve problems is a violation of people's national solidarity.
Even limiting it to something surgical (which BTW would not actually end up like that and would also be a war crime) sound *precisely* like Dick Cheney in 2002. Same wrongheaded, outsider socially illiterate shallow optimism.
Brett,
I'll agree with one thing.
A UN controlled buffer strip is one of the worst ideas imaginable.
No, I was thinking a 10 mile stretch of MEXICAN territory -- Mexico has had a special status for it for a long time and I'm saying that we demand they cede authority to the UN, which is corrupt but in a different way (lock up your daughters).
But you are probably right...
"Are you denying that Russia attacked Ukraine and tried to take it over?"
That is OUR problem....how?
I mean, outside of the Biden family being a paid client of Ukraine and all...
I think that the Biden’s are worst thing to come along in decades but that doesn’t change the fact that either we stop Russia now or we directly fight them on NATO soil in the not too distant future.
Not confronting them now makes WW3 more likely than less.
No it doesn't you useful idiot.
His was a statement of opinion (obviously), but I fear you think yours was not...
Its funny. Some country attacks some other country. = We have a moral duty to intervene!
We’re attacked directly through another country = Its outrageous to suggest intervention!
How has the Mexican government "attacked" the United States? Even if you nonsensically maintain that the Mexican government is controlled by the drug cartels, sending us the drugs our people demand (and pay handsomely for) is not an "attack". It is trade.
Moreover, of course, saying we're better off defending Ukraine from Russia now than defending NATO from Russia later is not an argument from "moral duty"--it is self-evidently one based on rational (albeit potentially mistaken) self-interest.
"and tried to take it over?"
Russia does not want to take over all of Ukraine, just the parts that they want, and especially the Crimea
I think we're entitled to extrapolate intent from the extent and trajectory of their tanks.
The Russkies did not confine themselves to "taking over" the Donbas region, you may recall.
Somin is not including the most compelling arguments in favor of military action against the drug cartels.
The first problem with his argument is that he does not distinguish between fentanyl and other drugs. But drug overdoses are now overwhelmingly fentanyl overdoses.
From a libertarian perspective, one thing that private individuals should not be doing to each other is committing fraud that results in death. But that is exactly what these drug cartels do when they engage in such behaviors as creating fake prescription pills laced with fentanyl.
What happens to the victim in these cases? The victim thinks they are getting a regular prescription opioid. (Albeit illegally.) Instead, they get a pill that does not contain the opioid they were expecting and fentanyl instead. So, in the best case scenario they become addicted to fentanyl, which is a very dangerous addiction to have. In the worst case, which is very common, they die of an overdose. The reason they die of an overdose is because fentanyl can kill in very small quantities and the fake prescription pill is not comparable to the drug they thought they were buying.
Under libertarian philosophy, I would think that fraud resulting in death is an aggressive act that can be punished or prevented through the use of force.
Somin notes that many drugs are smuggled by Americans through the border. That is, Americans may be used as mules. But what he doesn’t note is that this smuggling is arranged by Mexican drug cartels. Whether these Mexican drug cartels use Americans or they use submarines or they use drones, that doesn’t change the blameworthy nature of their actions. Why would it?
Another thing that Somin does not discuss is that the number of fentanyl deaths is increasing each year. In 2012 there were 2,628 fentanyl deaths. In 2013 there were 3,105 fentanyl deaths. In 2014 there were 5,544 fentanyl deaths. In 2015 there were 9,058 fentanyl deaths. In 2016 there were 19,413 fentanyl deaths. In 2017 there were 28,466 fentanyl deaths. In 2018 there were 31,335 fentanyl deaths. In 2019 there were 36,359 fentanyl deaths. In 2020 there were 57,834 fentanyl deaths. In 2021 there were 71,238 fentanyl deaths. In 2022 there were 109,680 fentanyl deaths.
So, in 10 years, we have gone from 2,628 deaths to 109,680 deaths. That is, in 10 years, fentanyl deaths have increased by more than 4173%.
As anyone with eyes to see can observe from the above numbers, the number of fentanyl deaths is alarming. And they can also be modeled using an exponential mathematical function.
Somin argues that “good relations” with the Mexican government should mean that we should, in essence, continue to tolerate these Mexican drug cartels murdering thousands of Americans through fraud.
I don’t see the moral argument for this. One might argue that the Mexican government has a sovereign right to deal with the Mexican drug cartels on its own. Well, at most, that is a legal argument rather than a moral argument. But we also know that many Mexican government officials are on the payroll of the Mexican drug cartels. For example, when 43 students were tortured and murdered in Mexico for commandeering a bus that had drugs on it (without knowledge of the students) in order to participate in protests, that was done with active participation of Mexican government officials. This uncontrolled link between the drug cartels makes the Mexican government complicit in the actions of the drug cartels. This means that parts of the Mexican government have been complicit in violating American sovereignty.
One alternative we could have to combat the drug cartels is to work with the Mexican government. One problem with that idea though. The Mexican government cannot be reliably depended on to not warn the drug cartels about operations against them. As noted before, many of these government officials are on drug cartel payrolls. Also, many Mexican politicians who have asserted views that have gone against the cartels have been murdered. In other words, we have a basic failure of democratic government here. When a politician is in office primarily because his or her opponent was killed by a drug cartel, that brings into question the democratic legitimacy of that government official.
The Mexican President is not serious about fighting the cartels. For example, he asserts: “There is a lot of disintegration of families, there is a lot of individualism, there is a lack of love, of brotherhood, of hugs and embraces.” But disintegration of families, while a legitimate concern, is nothing new. The lack of hugs and embraces does not explain the 4173% increase in fentanyl deaths from 2012 to 2022. There was no mass movement in America for parents to stop hugging their children between 2012 and 2022. The Mexican Presidents comments indicate that not only has he only taken a very small amount of effective action against the cartels in the past, but that we should continue this policy of active indifference to continue. Should we be surprised? Many in the Mexican government are on the payroll of these cartels.
Somin talks about damaging the relationship with Mexico. But shouldn’t Mexico be equally concerned about damaging the relationship with the United States? Well, they are not equally concerned. If they aren't concerned with saying on our good side, we should likewise be less concerned with staying on their good side. As with any other relationship.
Somin mentions that the war on drugs isn’t such a great idea. Well, I happen to agree with him. (Although, I will admit to not knowing for sure and advocating a cautious incremental approach.) At the same time, I recognize that it isn’t politically feasible to eliminate the war on the drugs in the short-term. Changing this is a multi-decade effort that requires convincing the American people that they should be comfortable with such seemingly radical ideas as legalized cocaine, legalized heroine, and legalized crystal meth. Most Americans are NOT comfortable with the idea of legalization. The REASON we have a war on drugs is because Americans support such a war.
While ending the war on drugs may or may not be a good idea, what we have right now is a national emergency. Fentanyl deaths have been growing exponentially for the last decade. And the age of people who are dying is excessively young.
It is perfectly consistent with libertarian principles to use military action against the Mexican drug cartels. First, the Mexican government, to the extent that many Mexican government officials are on the payrolls of drug cartels, is not a truly distinct entity. Second, the Mexican government has both enabled and actively participated in a violation of American sovereignty by both ignoring and aiding the activities of these cartels. Third, action against the drug cartels is justified from the perspective of self-defense. Fourth, these drug transactions are not acts between two consenting adults. Instead, it is one adult using fraud to poison another person (and that other person might be an adult or they might be a minor). Fifth, damage to the relationship between Mexico and America is not SOLELY an American responsibility. Sixth, this pattern of exponential increases in deaths due to fentanyl is simply unsustainable.
I believe that drug cartels can be disincentivized from smuggling fentanyl. And the way to do that would be to use military action against drug cartels that export fentanyl, while ordinary law enforcement actions are used against those who export anything else.
Somin argues that the problem of drugs arises from demand. But he fails to acknowledge that just because someone wants MDMA, or crystal meth, or crack, or cocaine, or heroine or whatever that doesn’t mean they want to overdose on fentanyl.
Now, if we were to legalize drugs, we could deal with this problem. But the problem with that solution is 1) it is highly experimental… legalization could cause unexpectedly bad results and 2) even if legalization would deal with this problem of people wanting X but getting an addictive or deadly dose of fentanyl instead, it isn’t currently feasible.
These fentanyl overdoses are happening NOW. So the solution we need must happen NOW. Whereas trying to persuade people to abolish the war on drugs is a multi-decade effort (how long did marijuana take… and that isn’t even done), taking action to curb fentanyl overdoses by Mexican drug cartels is both actionable and politically feasible in the near term.
So, to conclude:
1) Using force against Mexican drug cartels who are poisoning Americans is consistent with libertarian principles. 2) Even if you think an alternative libertarian approach is superior, such an alternative is just a fantasy at present. We need a solution that can be implemented BEFORE the inevitable libertarian utopia comes to earth.
(Recall, isn’t that what the communists always say? The murders and other abuses of power are all temporary measures until the utopia that somehow never happens comes to be. Libertarians should not fall for the same utopian fallacy as has trapped so many communists.)
If you ignore the fact that 90% of the fentanyl entering the country comes through the ports or on the person of US citizens then your position might be worth considering.
Seeing as how cartels aren't really in the fentanyl business accounting for 10% entering the US then your whole proposal looks just like the rest of the war on drugs. A bunch of solutions in search of problems to fix.
Dav,
I already addressed this above. But I will humor you. Why does it matter when Mexican drug cartels use American citizens as mules instead of say, drones???
You seem to think that using an American citizen as a mule somehow transfers all blame from the Mexican drug cartel to the mule???
My position is that the blameworthy behavior of the mule doesn’t reduce the blameworthy behavior of the cartel. Do you disagree? If so, why?
>If you ignore the fact that 90% of the fentanyl entering the country comes through
Under the direction of and after being smuggled via Mexican gangs...
Wow...even by the bottom barrel standards of prog posts yours is breathtakingly dishonest and full of malicious intent to mislead.
I have to say, I was somewhat disappointed that Somin also presented this superficial argument.
Using X to send drugs rather than doing it yourself lowers your practical risk in terms of getting caught, but it doesn’t lower your moral responsibility.
Saying that using mules to smuggle drugs lowers moral responsibility is like saying that hiring a hitman to commit murder lowers moral responsibility.
Under the direction of and after being smuggled via Mexican gangs…
What the fuck are you talking about? You're gonna need to show that work.
If you can believe those bloody thirsty ultra-MAGAts at NPR:
You can read the example of one such that led that article.
You're going to have to deny harder, dude.
Prosecutors and defense lawyers say Haley's story is typical; the vast majority of illicit fentanyl — close to 90% — is seized at official border crossings. Immigration authorities say nearly all of that is smuggled by people who are legally authorized to cross the border, and more than half by U.S. citizens like Haley.
I was indeed not tracking that.
But illicit fentanyl seizures is not at all the same as '90% of the fentanyl entering the country.'
It's hardly shocking if most of the smuggling is caught where they're actually conducting searches. Doesn't mean that's where most of the smuggling actually takes place.
Um, a person legally authorized to cross the border stops being legally authorized if they're acting as a drug mule. American citizen, foreign national, whatever.
The bigger point here isn't that we need to "secure the border" against unauthorized persons because they're acting as drug mules. It's that people on the other side of the border are facilitating drug mules crossing the border. And Mexico isn't able to prevent it.
That and all the violence associated with that is the argument for attacking Mexico.
I don't think those are good enough reasons, given other downsides. But I won't misrepresent that there aren't legitimate reasons, even if I don't think they're sufficient. Of course, there are other (military) options short of an all out attack on Mexico, but those also give people the vapors.
Um, no, that's not how it works. Their possessing the drugs may be illegal, but they are still legally authorized to cross the border.
Nieporent:
They are authorized to cross the border WITHOUT the drugs. But if they declared the drugs, they would be arrested.
In that case, they would cross the border and the drugs would cross the border. But they would cross the border as a detainee and the drugs would cross the border as evidence. I don't think that counts as "authorized."
They would be arrested for and charged with drug smuggling. Not for/with illegal entry into the U.S.
Nieporent:
I see what you are saying.
People are using the word authorized in different ways. The way you are using it is also legitimate.
You find it unbelievable that people who smuggle drugs use mules Sarcastr0?
Really???
In any case, it doesn't even matter. 1.) These drug cartels know what is happening to much of the drugs they sell. 2.) And the fentanyl is not legal in Mexico either.
I think any attempt to rehabilitate the image of these murderous drug cartels is a steep uphill battle. These cartels regularly: (1) torture and murder people who resist recruitment, (2) torture and murder innocents, (3) torture and murder each other, (4) assassinate Mexican politicians, (5) assassinate journalists, (6) bribe and corrupt Mexican government officials, and (7) manufacture fentanyl.
You want to talk about whether they sell to Americans or use drones to smuggle their drugs? Or, you want to argue that, just in case the mule is an independent actor, hey, maybe these poor Mexican drug cartels are innocent and having their reputation ruined???
Talking about the burden of proof on such a minor issue seems strange. Anyway, the practice of organized crime using mules is well-documented.
But assume that the American smugglers were more like "independent contractors" instead of "employees." What difference does it make?
Ah Gaslighto trying to muddle things up as usual. Its well accepted among authorities that the majority of fentanyl is trafficked from china through mexico. You know theres people that actually study this shit rather than pull things out of their ass entirely based on their politics if we want to be generous. Or are intentionally lying and trying to weave the false narrative that the poor drug cartels are innocent and its those rotten Americans less generously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
. Instead of finished fentanyl being shipped directly to the United States, most smuggling now takes place via Mexico. Mexican criminal groups source fentanyl, fentanyl precursors, and increasingly pre-precursors from China, and then traffic finished fentanyl from Mexico to the United States.
n the Western Hemisphere, Mexican drug trafficking groups, especially the Sinaloa Cartel and CJNG, dominate the trafficking and wholesale distribution of fentanyl and methamphetamine into the United States.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/chinas-role-in-the-fentanyl-crisis/
Maybe you're right, though your source is an article, not a study, and by someone who is not really trying for objectivity:
To wit: Mexican drug cartels are expanding their role into crimes against nature.
What the fuck?
It's actually a transcript of Congressional testimony, and the claims about fentanyl and its precursors come directly from the DEA (and other sources, linked in the cites).
The "crimes against nature" bit comes directly from the section referencing the illegal slaughter and trafficking of wildlife. I mean, here's the entire sentence you chose to copy only part of:
What the fuck indeed, Sarcastro? Why are you trying to defend illegal wildlife and timber trafficking and destruction of nature?
This is not new, by the way; the DEA has been regularly reporting on it and charging Chinese citizens and companies with trafficking, since at least 2018 or so. It makes the news on a regular basis. You, as usual, were simply ignorant and decided to deny instead of perform even the most minor amount of research - well, except to falsely except part of a sentence and pretend it was about something else entirely.
'Crimes against nature' has always had a connotation other than the literal one, so it's a good thing that's changing and a good thing such crimes are being recognised.
90% of the fentanyl SEIZED -- no one knows what isn't seized.
As has been said elsewhere, that 90% of it is caught at legal ports of entry does not remotely mean that 90% overall is delivered through legal ports of entry.
"Under libertarian philosophy, I would think that fraud resulting in death is an aggressive act that can be punished or prevented through the use of force."
But then it's Law Enforcement and not Military actions that should be conducted.
HUGE difference.
How effective has Mexican law enforcement been at handling those crimes?
What can Mexican law enforcement do about perpetual and ever-growing demand for drugs in the United States flooding their country with billions of dollars, enriching and empowering the cartels far beyond anything they can match?
Not even world police; the police of the world.
We can't handle our shit domestically, so lets wreck other people's shit and see how that goes - worked great in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam!
The difference is that iran won't be next door...
The US cannot even keep hard drugs out of their own prisons and jails. Prohibition has shown its ineffectiveness a million times over. Spending money on arming the mexican police does nothing when the cartel makes enough money to bribe the police. Spending money on arming the mexican army does nothing, when the cartels make enough money to bribe the army.
We cannot imprison our way out of this problem. Nor we can shoot our way out of it. Every single time a cartel boss gets busted or blown up - somebody steps in fill the void and make the money the now deceased cartel boss was making. Every single time. For decades.
Prohibition is clearly a price support mechanism for the black market and money is the motivator for all illegal actors in the game. So how do you remove the money? The only solution is to legalize them all. Note what happened to cannabis seizures on the southern border once cannabis began to be legalized in various states north of the border. Someone want to do a rundown of those numbers year over year? A poster above did a nice rundown of increasing fentanyl deaths year over year. What they didn't account for is the massive crackdown on legal opioid prescriptions in the US at the same time as the increase in fentanyl deaths from imported/trafficked fentanyl. The crackdown on legal opioid prescriptions didn't change the demand for opioids. It just moved people from legal and often cheap prescriptions to the streets and the black market where they get exploited, cheated or as that poster called it "fraud" (buying what they think is percocet but its laced with fentanyl so they accidentally o.d.)
Its not rocket science. Remove the money and the price support mechanism which prohibition creates and the rest will take care of itself. BUT BUT BUT the cartels will just move into something else. Like they did when switching from marijuana to cocaine and then from cocaine to meth. That's why it has to be ALL drugs so there is nothing to move to. BUT BUT BUT then the cartels will pivot and sell to other countries where its still illegal. This is a valid problem. A problem for the cartels. And who gives a fuck about the cartels problem? When the big u.s. money bonanza dries up they will cannibalize each other for whatever smaller markets exist. Let them kill each other for dwindling profits til its not worth it for any of them anymore.
windycityattorney:
Not everything you say is wrong. Prohibition has a tendency to be undermined by black markets.
But what you are proposing is a long-term solution that is politically infeasible in the short-term. But in the short-term, we are experiencing permanent damage.
So, we must seek to minimize that permanent damage with the tools that are available to us. In the long term, your view may or may not win out politically. But in the short term, it certainly is not going to. Currently, there is no politically significant movement for so-called hard drugs.
One mistake people sometimes make in a democracy is imagining the ideal policies they would implement if they were in charge. But the problem is, no one is in charge. We are sharing control of the country with 300 million other people. As such, we need to consider the political feasibility of policy and not just if it is the absolute best one. If the absolute best policy is out of reach due to politics, we need to look at "second best" or "third best" solutions in the meantime.
People who overdose on fentanyl today are dead today. So, we have a reason to seek to minimize that problem even as we seek to achieve a big enough consensus to change the situation in perhaps a more fundamental way.
So, in the short term, let's start a war.
In a society where law enforcement is becoming ever more militarised, there may not be much of a difference. Granted you need heavy-hitters to hit heavy-hitters like the cartels, but it's weird nobody has yet learned the lesson if that's all your approach to illegal drugs consists of, it just ends up being self-perpetuating.
apedad:
The problem with that is that Mexican law enforcement has not been doing anything significant about the cartels. Often due to bribery and corruption.
Insisting that we MUST use the option we already know isn't working doesn't make sense.
But perhaps you can elaborate. How can we use law enforcement to solve this problem. Hasn't that already been tried and hasn't that already failed?
Clearly, we need them to move on from bribing Mexican authorities, and start bribing American authorities. That will solve the problem!
You've got to love a world in which nuking Mexico is politically more feasible than just ending prohibition.
The really scary part is that he might be right. What would the political cost be of nuking a country where there is no risk of being nuked back?
Martinned:
I am right about what is most politically feasible.
But we aren't talking about nuking Mexico or overthrowing Mexico. We are talking about surgical strikes aimed at the cartels.
Legalizing drugs is something that people have talked about for decades. But when it comes to so-called "hard drugs" like cocaine, heroine, and meth... it is a huge uphill battle to convince people that these should be legalized and then regulated just like any other substance. Furthermore, no one can be sure what the effects of such a large change in our society would be. That suggests that we exercise appropriate prudence and caution.
"We are talking about surgical strikes aimed at the cartels."
Do you read history, or are you just doomed to play your bit part in it?
Mr. Nieporent,
"Just ending prohibition" may be easy in your head. But ask yourself this. Is it actually achievable in practice in the short-term?
I don't make the rules. I just observe the reality of the situation.
I didn't say you were necessarily wrong. I just made a wry observation.
I will admit that the situation is somewhat ironic.
"using force against Mexican drug cartels"
we already do that in cooperation with the Mexican government.
The fact of the presence of corruption within that government is not a defensible reason for going to war against Mexico
Yet another reason to never vote for anyone with an R next to their name.
The trend of deaths from 2012 to 2022 has been an exponential increase in fentanyl deaths, from about 1200 to about 106,000. The trend of these deaths could be modeled mathematically with an exponential formula.
I would not be surprised if a lot of Democrats would be supportive of tough action against the cartels in order to cut down on these deaths as well. The trend is very unfavorable and the status quo of leaving the cartels largely untouched while the poison the youth of America with fentanyl is becoming less sustainable.
If you’re bothered by death and suffering why would you support potentially disastrous policies that would multiply death and suffering to even greater levels? You think there’s an APETTITE for invading Mexico outside the utter headcases like Dr Ed? That’s not a solution, that’s retaliation and escalation for the sake of feeling powerful in the face of a seemingly intractable problem. It’s for people with no interest in exploring WHY the youth of America is poisoning itself like this. How many vets are drug addicts and why? How many future vets of the future Mexican War will end up drug addicts and why?
Nige:
Surgical military strikes on cartel targets is quite logical and can be used to effectively change Mexican drug cartel incentives.
How? Use military strikes only against cartels that manufacture fentanyl while other cartels only face ordinary law enforcement.
You can call such surgical military strikes "invading" if you like, but rather than a physical occupation of Mexico, it really is just a limited event. One could say that such a limited strike is an "invasion of Mexican" sovereignty, but (1) as I have explained above, the Mexican government is complicit in violations of American sovereignty... it can't be the case that the only sovereignty that matters is Mexican and (2) it is also justified in self-defense principles... the Mexican government will not control the cartels on its own territory.
Yeah, 'surgical' military and drone strikes. Absolutely proven sure-fire success. No civilian casualties. No escalation. No blowback.
It'll just be the War on Drugs, squared.
Nige:
Your language is absolutist in nature. No one is claiming that surgical strikes wouldn’t have costs as well as benefits. Instead, the argument is that this policy is the best alternative out there.
All policies have downsides. For example, the downsides of your policy of “continue doing exactly what we have been doing” is a continued exponential increase in fentanyl deaths.
You need to do better than this. I am fine with you pointing out the costs of a policy you disagree with. But an honest argument would acknowledge the benefits. And not only that, you have to look at the alternative policy (the status quo, perhaps, in this case) and acknowledge that the alternative policy has costs as well as benefits.
Focusing ONLY on the losses or ONLY on the benefits of particular choice leads to miscalculation.
No, you need to do better. 'Surgical strikes' are militarist fantasy bullshit. We already know that doing militarist law-enforcement bullshit has only made things worse. Doing more because the alternative that might actually work is hard is beyond dumb.
Why stop at Mexico? Didn't someone up there ^^ mention that most of the actual stuff comes from China?
The MIC is gonna love this...
Radioactive sand works wonders.
We go nuke some desolate area where it is too expensive to fence it anyway, and we make sure that the media is close enough to see the nuking. Then we airdrop a bunch of signs that say (in Spanish) "Death Zone -- you will die if you go through here."
Then -- Eff them.
Anyone remember what happened to the Russian soldiers who went through the Chernobyl hot zone?
Then we tell the Mexicans that we don't give a bleep and either they can either secure their border, or we will drop more nukes -- and we have a LOT of nukes...
Oh, and Gringo no more buys your stuff. We also have a trade DEFICIT with Mexico...
You're a psychopath.
A proud boy.
It’s not a new “war on drugs”, though, it’s a war on the open border. The drug cartels are exploiting the open border to run not just drugs but people. They are militarized. They are criminal. They run poor people illegally across the border, coach them how to falsely claim asylum, and then extort them for vast sums. They mix drugs into this human pipeline, of course, but running people is obviously very profitable.
A military response seems very justified. They are an obvious target.
Mexico is not a good neighbor, it is a failed state with respect to its borders, south and north. Putting pressure on them to do the right thing is only self-preservation.
Don't forget about the sex slaves...
What I fail to understand is why the government and its war on drugs don't use their drugs against them? They destroy all the drugs they seize. Why not set up clinics that an addict can sign into and have the use of all the drugs they want? give them a bed and food if they want it and let them waste away. if they want to leave they go into a rehab program. refine the drugs to remove the dangerous stuff and feed it to the addicts. this would lower crime(helping to pay for the program) it removes the customer from the drug dealers reducing profit and driving up the cost of street drugs and sending them to the free clinics. once signed in you don't get out without the rehab program. the biggest benefit is removing them from the street and frees up the cops for other serious crimes like putting the smugglers in jail for a long time. make it harder to find people who will risk jail time. That is the war on crime we need. lastly, provide low cost drugs to the people who need it under doctor's care--------------------- I, Grampa
Trivially, by the time you'd done the purification and quality control necessary to make that remotely safe, it would be cheaper to just manufacture the drugs yourself. It's not like the drugs we're talking about are hard to make.
Fair point, but still, you could do infinitely more to save lives and harm the cartels by setting up clean, free, secure drug clinics in every small town and city district in the US than in ramping up the budget for the failed and fucked-up war on drugs yet again by a single cent.
If there's anything we've learned about black markets, and trying to suppress them, it's that government can't suppress a black market just by entering the market. Because government isn't willing to supply remotely the entire customer base. Nor should it be.
You suppress black markets by stepping back and letting go. Letting a normal legal market displace the black market.
As I keep reiterating, we're not talking about drug legalization. We're talking about drug re-legalization. Recreational drugs were perfectly legal, and then the government went on a Prohibition style crusade against them. It's just that the country came to its senses about Prohibition, and doubled down on being unreasonable when it came to drugs other than alcohol.
Sure. Along with all the clinics.
Brett:
Legalizing drugs may be a good idea. But it is longer term political project.
What we need to do in the meantime is limit deaths from fraud. Most addicts are not requesting fentanyl. It is added without their knowledge.
There's a thing on the right about your virtue meaning you're down to spill the blood of your countrymen to address your issues.
No, it is not noble actually to say the border is an issue and you are so passionate you want to kill lots of Americans and Mexicans to solve the issue, Iraq-style.
I'd call it dumb but it's clearly not coming from a place of rationality; it's just signaling how much you care, you'll let other people sacrifice for you.
Y'all suck.
It's like the self-defence thing. The more notion that there's a line somewhere between justifiably and unjustifiably killing a human being because you were in fear of your life means you are in strict opposition to their fantasies of mowing down the bloodthirsty underclass hordes with your Blaine-in-Predator-style mini-gun.
And the whole I regret to inform that the main constitutional flaw here is other people not me will become violent.
That’s not just psycho Ed. It comes up regularly.
Sarcastr0:
Have you noticed the statistics on fentanyl overdoses? From about 2000 deaths in 2012 to about 109,000 deaths in 2022.
We are talking about surgical strikes of Mexican drug cartels. This is not the same as Iraq and Afghanistan, which involved occupation and nation-building activities. And the number of deaths were are talking about is far fewer than the deaths from fentanyl.
And deaths of drug cartel members from such operations would not be that regrettable overall, given that these operations engage in mass murder, assassinate politicians, assassinate journalists, etc.
Overall, surgical strikes have the potential to prevent many more deaths than they cause.
You suggest that wanting to take action against these drug cartels is performative. But I would point to the statistics.
" talking about surgical strikes of Mexican drug cartels"
if it were that easy, we could let mexican military personnel fly them.
And they will work just as well as the strikes against wedding parties in the middle east.
Don Nico:
Many Mexican government officials are corrupted by the cartels.
which proves nothing.
Politicians world wide have been corrupted by people with money
Sure, some corruption is inevitable. Humans being what they are.
However, if corruption reaches certain levels, that can fundamentally change the nature of government and whom it is actually serving. To a large extent, the Mexican government is serving the Mexican cartels rather than ordinary people. The Mexican cartels have ensured this is so not only through bribes, but by assassinating both politicians and journalists who criticize them.
No Gaslighto, it is solving it German style.
Hitler was turning Jews into lampshades so we did a lot of things which were rather nasty -- firebombing Dresden comes to mind -- to stop him. And we stopped him.
I just popped in here to see if any of the usual suspects would be willing to go "all in" on this craziness (or do the usual, "Look, a squirrel").
Yep. I mean, I guess in a world where "grooming" and "secret cabals of liberals that are trafficking children through pizza parlors" has become normalized, it shouldn't be surprising, but still ...
But hey. It's not like the whole, "US uses force on its southern neighbors" has a bad history or anything, right?
Strawmen! Strawmen! Let's everybody yell their favorite: Neocons love war! QAnon are nuts! Grooming is happening everywhere! Grooming isn't happening anywhere! Human trafficking is a major issue! Human trafficking is overblown!
Only one of those is a strawman.
You know, pizzagate had more of a factual basis behind it than Russiagate.
Just sayin'...
Yeah, explain to me like I'm a slightly dumb golden retriever the factual basis behind "pizzagate," something so stupid it would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous to people that gullible and easily riled up.
It's almost like people have already memory-holed the Satanic Panic of the '80s. Stupid is as stupid does, amirite?
Fuck yeah we caught one in the wild.
Where you going with this? Dems are controlled by pedos? So is the GOP? They use secret symbols to flaunt their power? Dems extract adrenochrome from trafficked babies? Dems worship Satan? Trump and the secret military are actually in control and there was no inauguration? The Storm is Coming?
Tells us; we all want to know how deep this goes!!
A lot of elites are pedos. Epstein showed that. That the list is STILL under lock and key (funny how people who committed statutory rape on unwilling minors face zero repurcussions, ain't it?) is further proof that the people involved are WAY up there.
That alone is more factual basis than the entirety of Russiagate, where literally nothing claimed happen.
So, the existence of Epstein (who, remember, also hosted Trump and many others) is conclusive proof that Democrats are using pizza chains to abuse babies and extract their adenochrome, for, um, reasons (like liberals are bad and stuff).
Wow. Normally it's just whataboutism, but this is new. It's Whataboutism as CONCLUSIVE PROOF.
Talk about moving goal posts? You just picked that one up and threw it in the Tennessee River. There never was a claim that pizza gate was conclusively proven, so you're derisive response to that effect just shows you have no real response.
The claim was simple: evidence of pizza gate > evidence for Russia gate.
Proof:
Evidence for pizza gate = Epstein (which includes the whole initial slap on the wrist, the convenient suicide and the failure to release or go after his co-conspirator child rapists).
Evidence for Russia gate = 0.
If you have a real response, I'd love to hear it.
Sure. You're a loon.
There is no evidence for Pizzagate. Epstein is not evidence of anything except Epstein. There's no evidence that he was part of some ring of pedophiles.
There is a lot of evidence for Russiagate. Read the Mueller report. Read the SSCI report.
"There’s no evidence that he was part of some ring of pedophiles."
If Epstein was engaged in sex trafficking, which I think is universally acknowledged at this point, there were obviously a group of people that participated in this sex trafficking. That is what is metaphorically known as a "ring." And because Epstein trafficked minors, that would be a "ring of pedophiles." How is that not obvious, asks the loon?
I heard of a recently busted ring of jewel thieves on the East Coast.
This is evidence Biden is aware of and working with jewel thieves.
Sure, but that's only because "sex trafficking" is a vague term. Epstein was involved in procuring young girls for himself. We know that Ghislaine Maxwell was involved. (Presumably there were low-level staffers of Epstein's involved — drivers, servants, etc. — but there's no evidence that any of those people were having sex with the victims, so that wouldn't make them pedophiles.)
Why do you think that there were enough other pedophiles involved to constitute a "ring"? We know that there were dozens of victims. If there were significant numbers of prominent members of this supposed ring, don't you think some of these victims would have named people? So far we've heard exactly one — Prince Andrew. (Well, we also heard Dershowitz, but his accuser dropped her claims and said she might have been mistaken.)
We know that Epstein threw lots of parties and I don't doubt that some other people may have had sex with some of these minors at some of those parties, but the notion that this was some mass conspiracy where Epstein was procuring girls for other people — as opposed to for himself — seems to go far beyond the publicly available evidence.
Some of the women involved have testified about what they had to do.
It was not remotely just Epstein.
"A lot of elites are pedos."
So are a lot of scum.
But where is your proof beyond your raving about it,
But Epstein had nothing to do with pizzagate. It was the MSM who pointed out his scandalous plea deal. The guy who gave him the deal worked for Trump.
'A lot of elites are pedos'
Amazing how you lot go after drag queens, so.
"But Epstein had nothing to do with pizzagate."
The underlying conceit of pizzagate is that a lot of "elites" were part of a child abuse consortium. While Epstein has no connection to the actual pizza restaurant at the heart of pizzagate, the whole Epstein scandal does show there was at least some truth to the underlying conceit.
It was the MSM who pointed out his scandalous plea deal.
Actually, the mainstream media buried this for as long as they could. It'll take you roughly two minutes to verify this, so I won't bother with cites.
The guy who gave him the deal worked for Trump.
Whataboutism again. What relevance does this have to anything? The plea deal was in 2008. That Acosta was still able to stay in the highest levels of government after that terrible plea deal doesn't undercut any of the conspiracy claims. If anything, it gives credence to conspiracy theorists.
I'm not trying to defend pizzagate by any means - as far as I know it was a stupid and debunked QAnon theory - but the stupid, half-assed, goal-oriented "reasoning" on this website is just terrible and I'm calling it out (mostly because I'm procrastinating from doing my day job). If you're not careful, the comments here won't be any better than on Huffpost or FoxNews. Sad.
‘The underlying conceit of pizzagate is that a lot of “elites” were part of a child abuse consortium.’
The underlying conceit of pizzagate was that Hilary Clinton’s campaign was ordering children to abuse from the basement of a pizzeria. Expanding that to the non-controversial ‘pedophiles exist’ doesn’t disguise this fact. The whole idea was that the Democrats are a ring of Satan-worshipping pedophiles, which, again, nothing to do with one wealthy actual pedophile and his evil proclivities.
‘Actually, the mainstream media buried this’
They ignored it, and then a member of the MSM exposed it. Pizzagate analysed online menus looking for code words.
‘What relevance does this have to anything?’
Pizzagate was a pro-Trump cult.
‘and I’m calling it out’
Not really.
Take a look at the Rotherham scandal in England some time. You'd like to think that the notion of large scale child sexual abuse rings operating for long periods under the protection of government was inherently implausible.
But you'd have to be somewhat ignorant of recent history. Both in England and here. Epstein wasn't just running that sex island for his own purposes, he had guests, and apparently fairly important ones. And he kept records, too. Records which are treated with more care than nuclear launch codes, to keep them from ever leaking.
This is not to say that "Pizzagate", specifically, was plausible. It reads like a bad episode of Get Smart, if Get Smart had been R rated. It's just to say that the overall genre is not inherently suspect.
I have a suspicion, and it is, of course, no more than that, that easily debunked conspiracy theories are frequently generated and disseminated specifically to be debunked, to create a cloud of FUD in which leaks about real goings on will just be reflexively dismissed without investigation. It would explain a lot of what's been going on in the last decade or so.
You sound curious.
‘You’d like to think that the notion of large scale child sexual abuse rings operating for long periods under the protection of government was inherently implausible.’
No, you see, you’re confusing reality with pizzagate. Pizzagate claiming Epstein or proven pedophile rings proves they have a point isn’t a truth at the kernel of well-meaning wrongness, it’s a truth exploited cynically to propagate hideous lies to the detriment of the very children they claim to want to protect. It’s a political project, a culture war project, and it’s been mainstreamed to become the ‘groomer’ slur against drag queens and teachers and Democrats and the ugly transphobia firing up Trump’s MAGA base. It has NOTHING to do with dealing with actual sexual abuse.
Pizzagate started with edgelords on 4chan throwing shit against a wall during the election to see what stuck. Pizzagate did. Nobody dimissed the Esptein revelations when they came out, despite pizzagate and Qanon battening onto it like vultures.
The basement of a pizzeria that literally did not have a basement.
Your fuzzy scope is just like the Trump supporters 'oh so making a phone call is illegal now?'
It's patently disingenuous, though people often don't realize it because they have first fooled themselves into thinking this is good reasoning.
Epstein did not, of course, "show" any such thing. You know that Epstein was accused of himself being a pedophile,¹ not of running a pedophile brothel for elites.
"I haven't seen evidence, so that's just proof of how much evidence there is!"
¹Since this is a libertarian site, I will add: not technically, but that's the word people use.
Ghislane Maxwell and he trafficked kids --- to nobody. This seems to be your assumption.
Well, outside of Prince Andrew, who absolutely had sex with a minor against her will.
We know he had videos. Lots of them. We know he had names. Lots of them.
Yet, not a name has leaked. Not one.
But, yup, even though Clinton was there literally dozens of times --- nothing on that island was remotely pedo-y.
Reading isn't one of your strong suits, is it? My argument was he "trafficked" kids to himself.
Oh, absolutely. I remember the jury verdict like it was yesterday.
We do not in fact know that.
A normal, rational person would conclude something very different from that last statement of yours than you did.
And it's all happening in the basement of a place without a basement!
You're aware that there is still more evidence than ever existed of Russiagate. Not saying Pizzagate is true. It is not.
But it, at least, has some facts behind it. The elites of the world are pedos. It is simply reality.
Meanwhile, no hookers pissed on Trump. Trump did not have a secret link to Alfa Bank. Russians did not change results of the 2016 election. Russians did not compromising intel on Trump. None of it was true. All of it was a lie.
"The elites of the world are pedos. It is simply reality."
Citation needed.
Tom Hanks is an elite. Tom Hanks is a good guy. Therefore, the elites of the world are good guys.
Seriously, stop drinking the kool-aid.
I mean, that's been obvious ever since Jared the Subway spokesperson was convicted.
You couldn't just go with 'elites have too much money, let's tax them, they have too much influence, let's tighten up campaign contributions and ethics guidelines and access.' You had to go with a conspiracy theory adapted from the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion. I think maybe for the same reasons idiots want to invade Mexcio insteead of address the source of the drugs crisis itself. Either it's too hard, or you don't actually want to, or it's an opportunity to hurt people you hate. The 'elite' are relatively untouchable, of course, but drag queens and teachers and librarians and trans people aren't.
It's like he doesn't actually know or understand what "Pizzagate" was.
If you don't know what "adrenochrome" is (or, rather, is supposed to be according to Q), you cannot possibly understand Pizzagate or compare it with or to anything else ending in "gate".
yaaaaawn...but is drug use a moral problem or not?
Is this like saying "let's not end slavery because there might be a civil war"?
It will and it is getting worse. I have a family member with a terrible drug problem. The best solution might not be perfect ( of course ) but you sound like Hillary, who always picked the perfect position and then sniper-like killed all practical positions as sell-outs.
– There’s nothing “libertarian” about human trafficking.
– There’s nothing “libertarian” about extorting poor people.
– There’s nothing “libertarian” about losing control of your country’s border to criminal gangs.
– There’s nothing “libertarian” about women and children being violently abused.
– There’s nothing “libertarian” about a dangerous poison that is killing a hundred thousand people a year, and climbing.
This is NOT a partisan issue. The truth is that there are bad people who do not respect other people’s freedoms. They do not ask for your consent. They are violent, and criminal.
If you love liberty, you must work to stop the bad people from destroying it. Liberty is a state that must be defended. Sometimes that means you have to defend it with force. When you do that, you are in fact protecting liberty. You are protecting the principle that one person’s freedom ends where another’s begins.
The idea that we should hop to with our military to deal with bad people is not libertarian. Or wise.
If you love liberty, you must work to stop the bad people from destroying it. Liberty is a state that must be defended. Sometimes that means you have to defend it with force. When you do that, you are in fact protecting liberty. You are protecting the principle that one person’s freedom ends where another’s begins.
Saying you should invoke the government's lethal force in service of this goal is not libertarian.
You're singing song of unlimited authoritarianism. How many police states have been instantiated to protect liberty? You're falling for a very old trick.
Did you stop and think through what you said there: “military to deal with bad people is not libertarian”
First, I’ll acknowledge that I deliberately left of “our” in front of military. Maybe given the opposition to our support for Ukraine (which I agree with), the people of that country are not libertarians. But I think they are, because if they hadn’t fought back against a Russian invasion (bad people) their lives would be much less libertarian under Russian occupation.
Sometimes bad people are the government. Sometimes governments do nothing about bad people. Sometimes things to fit neatly into ideological categories to make blanket statements.
As a statement of principles, I think DaveM gets it mostly right here. But you reflexively attacked him without any time for reflection on whether your point conflicts with other realities. Accusing him of unlimited authoritarianism is partisan hackery. You’re one of those people who mock Second Amendment advocacy, which is exactly about preventing police states. Aren’t those advocating for the prosecution of Trump (for whatever reason) doing so because they think he’s a threat to democracy and therefore liberty?
I attacked the shallow and frankly fascistic 'there are very bad people; military force is how you need to deal with that.'
Anyone who has studied any history knows that's all vibes no thinking, and very bad juju. Fuck that way of thinking.
You are correct about the necessity of avoiding simplistic thinking.
But, you don't combat simplistic thinking by substituting simplistic thinking. Sometimes there is a role for the military.
Here, action is justified morally and on the basis of traditional principles of self-defense. From a moral perspective, we are entitled to protect the youth of America from drug overdoses.
But you'd definitely not support military action if the cartels were honestly supplying fentanyl "as fentanyl" to willing US drug buyers...
What?
Historically, the military has been the standard solution to large armed groups of lawbreakers, whether you call them cartels or bandits. And it's been quite successful through most of history.
Not in the modern era, no.
Not since state sovereignty was a thing and the world realized imperialism was bad, actually.
“The idea that we should hop to with our military to deal with bad people is not libertarian. Or wise.”
Hm. I didn’t say “hop to” using the military at all. You’re adding that. What I’m saying is that sometimes you have to use your military. Sometimes that’s the best way.
I’m not sure I quite get your decision to turn what I said all the way to 11 on this point. I’m just saying it is a good idea to defeat evil. For example, it was very "wise", indeed, for us to defeat the Axis powers in WWII militarily. That was in no way contrary to libertarian principles.
Sometimes contains so many multitudes it is basically a useless statement.
I’m just saying it is a good idea to defeat evil.
Sure, dude. But defeat is harder than it looks, and bad people are everywhere.
Sarcastr0:
I do believe that DaveM is correct that you were using hyperbole in order to create a strawman. I am not saying you did this intentionally. I also have unintentionally created strawmen in arguments.
But no one is talking about "nuking" Mexico and no one is talking about "occupying" Mexico.
It is always easier to argue against more extreme policies, so when people are in a competitive mindset, sometimes they imagine that other people have adopted more extreme ideas than they really have.
In fact, there is nothing particularly extreme about limited targeted strikes on drug cartels. Surgical strikes, to use an analogy from medicine. Such strikes are justified based on traditional notions of self-defense.
In contrast to limited action, nuking Mexico or invading and occupying Mexico are much easier to argue against.
DaveM says that sometimes military force should be considered. And on this point, I think you agree with him as a general matter.
Use of hyperbole or attacking strawmen have a tendency to make people seem more different than they actually are.
Actually, there is a guy up there ^^ literally talking about "nuking" Mexico...
There's certainly nothing libertarian about having the government create these problems and then claim that the government must undertake even more anti-libertarian approaches to end them.
You might argue that the war on drugs has contributed to the fentanyl crisis. Because of the war on drugs, the drugs in the United States do not have proper quality control. Thus, when people wish to consume drug X, they sometimes unwillingly consume fentanyl.
I believe the argument is correct as far as it goes. The war on drugs has created this quality control vulnerability.
HOWEVER, the war on drugs is a set of policies that isn’t going to end in the near future. Taken as a whole, neither Democrats nor Republicans are committed to ending the war on drugs. The American people do not currently support legalized crystal meth, cocaine, or heroine.
But Americans are overdosing every single day. Using 2022 numbers, that would be about 298 fentanyl deaths per day. But if were to extrapolate based on the assumption that the increase is exponential (and growth will likely be exponential until it isn’t… based on some limiting principle perhaps similar to pandemics… the candidate population of people potentially vulnerable to fentanyl consumption based on their drug addiction will eventually run out) then we should assume that the daily death toll is probably significantly higher than 300 people per day. (Of course, when 2023 data is released, we will have more insight on that question.)
Since this is an immediate problem with permanent consequences, it benefits from immediate solutions with permanent consequences. People who die while our political system evolves (or does not evolve… it could go either way… that is what it means to live in a democracy) are dead permanently. And we also lose the contributions of the people who would have been their descendants permanently.
The bottom-line. Talking about things that are politically impossible in the short-term cannot be an immediate solution. Even if I were to agree that legalizing drugs was theoretically the best approach to the quality control problem, it just isn’t on the table in the short-term.
To solve the quality-control problem, we can selectively attack the leaders of drug cartels who manufacture or otherwise smuggle fentanyl. In this way, drug cartel leadership can be incentivized to avoid fentanyl and concentrate their limited resources on smuggling drugs that don’t involve fentanyl.
'Talking about things that are politically impossible in the short-term cannot be an immediate solution'
Of course not. Do the thing that's quicker, easier, and which will immediately make everything worse instead.
Note that the American people are not being asked if they'd prefer to legalize drugs or start a war in Mexico; their preference is simply (and conveniently) assumed.
Are cartels terrorist organizations?
Yes!
No, obviously not. They don't seek to change government policy by violently terrorizing the public (except the policy of arresting them, but if that circular logic were to hold, then every violent criminal would be a terrorist). They are not political. They are just violent commercial enterprises.
Not quite so obviously, Mr. Nieporent:
Cartels have a practice of murdering both politicians and journalists that criticize them.
That is clearly the use of violence in order to create an atmosphere of fear and to influence the policies of the Mexican government.
As usual, you are quite assured in your ignorant wrongness.
Mexican cartels do meet the criteria to be designated as terrorist organizations. There have been proposals to do so since (at least) around 9/11/2001, so it's hardly a new thing. Some other drug organizations have been designated as terrorist organizations over the years, and many terrorist organizations participate in drug trafficking.
The primary reason given for not designating the cartels as FTOs is because it would really piss off the Mexican government. This isn't guessing; it was explicitly stated in Congressional debate. Back in 2012, during discussion of one such bill, Mexico threatened to terminate all anti-drug cooperation if the US did so.
There isn't even a consensus on what "terrorism" is, much less that drug cartels meet "the criteria" (whatever they are).
But David's formulation is the most popular one, and it does not include certain types of businesses seeking to satisfy consumer demand for products banned in neighboring countries.
I understand and usually agree with those against using military action. However, on this one, I am genuinely on the fence.
Serious question: What is the proper U.S. response to the death of over 100,00 Americans from fentanyl poisoning in 2022 – with a large percentage of that due to fake drugs sold (directly or indirectly) by Mexican drug cartels?
Similar serious question: What is the proper U.S. response to human smuggling orchestrated by the drug cartels where the people smuggled are often either (a) essentially sold into slavery or involuntary servitude, including sex slavery, or (b) forced to work for the drug cartels in the U.S. to pay off their debts to the cartel?
Obviously, the best solution is for Mexico to police the cartels, but that clearly is not happening.
My preferred solution to the drug issue – legalize and regulate so that customers can be assured the drug they are buying is not laced with fentanyl – is off the table for political reasons. It’s just not going to happen anytime soon, so that’s not a realistic response.
First question - will an invasion do *anything* about fentanyl? I think we need to think hard before we go with 'something drastic should be done and this is something drastic.'
The answer is yes. If we use surgical strikes wisely.
We can target drug cartels that manufacture fentanyl with surgical strikes while only using ordinary law enforcement against cartels that do not.
Targeted military action can change the incentives around the manufacture of fentanyl.
Have you noticed the exponential increase in fentanyl deaths?
What if we invent AI-powered nanobots that can detect fentanyl from long distances and then call in strikes from the space laser?
Mr. Nieporent:
Because those technologies do not currently exist.
We can use intelligence to discover which cartels are manufacturing fentanyl and use military strikes against their leaders in proportion to that manufacturing. That is, more manufacturing leads to more strikes and less manufacturing leads to fewer strikes.
That would change the incentives around manufacturing fentanyl. Especially if we target the leaders who make the decision. Sure, the drug cartels are a current reality and if we kill a leader, they will be replaced. But we can take advantage of the fact that cartel leaders prefer to survive to influence them to make different decisions regarding the manufacture or smuggling of fentanyl.
That technology does not currently exist.
As evidenced by the fact that people think that "we can just kill the drug dealers" is a solution to drug dealing.
Are you saying that the leaders of drug cartels are irrationally committed to fentanyl? Are you arguing that their incentives cannot be changed based on changes in their environment?
Yes, if kill a cartel leader (or arrest them), they will be replaced. However, if you only target cartel leadership with military action to the extent they are involved in the fentanyl trade (while targeting other cartels only with law enforcement), that is a way to change their incentives, as it will make focusing their activities on profitable activities other than fentanyl much more safe for them.
Please note that the major drug cartels of Mexico already deal with fentanyl to differing extents. So, contrary to what you are suggesting, there are already different belief systems among cartel leaders regarding whether to focus organizational effort on fentanyl versus alternatives. The heterogeneity here is a kind of proof that change is possible. We need to make the cartels that like to deal in fentanyl more like the cartels that choose not to do so. And we can achieve that by changing the environment and incentives that cartels have when making their choices.
Why are you focused on Mexico, when the vast majority of fentanyl comes from China?
The key insight here is that Mexico is a failed state with regard to the cartels and our border crossings. The Mexican government is corrupted and by commission or omission is enabling these criminal organizations to run human trafficking and illegal smuggling operations.
We have an enormous number of economic ties to Mexico. We absolutely can escalate our sanctions on them, we do not need to resort to military response at all in the beginning. However, we need to let them know that is most definitely on the table.
So, try thinking this through for a second.
First, you give the game away when you say, "Mexico is a failed state with regard to (two things I care about!)." Because even with problems, Mexico is not a "failed state." I'm assuming you haven't actually traveled to Mexico recently. I have. It's not a failed state, any more than the United States is despite having areas with problems.
Second, it's rather rich to complain about the issues in Mexico that are part and parcel of issues that we cause. Why are the cartels in Mexico so powerful? Because we, you know ... Americans ... have such a massive appetite for drugs. It's not the first time we've had this issue- remember the Columbian cartels? So again, we are telling our southern ally- hey, this massive problem you have caused by our voracious appetite that we aren't trying to solve? Yeah, we're thinking of invading you, because that's how problems are solved. Not that it would actually solve the underlying problems- Americans are still going to consume drugs even if we invade, they'll just find other ways to get 'em.
And has anyone thought this through? Sure, we invade. Which will go over like a ten ton anvil, because the one thing all Mexicans (and South Americans) love is Yankee Imperialism. And where do we go? And what do we do? And how long do we stay? And how are we going to determine the "good Mexicans" from the cartels?
Oh yeah, don't forget that Mexico is actually our #1 trading partner, so ... this might have a little hit on our economy during our little war. But why not, right?
This has to be the stupidest idea ever. And there's been a lot of them recently.
Hear, hear!!!
loki13:
(1) When you traveled to Mexico, did you witness Mexican political candidates being assassinated? Did you see 6 ordinary students tortured and murdered by a drug cartel because they did not want to be recruited? Did you see 43 students who commandeered a bus to travel to a protest in Mexico City get tortured and killed with the cooperation of Mexican officials because the bus they took had drugs on them (the students did not know this). Did you witness drug cartels assassinating journalists. Mexico IS a failed state. The drug cartels have advanced to a point where the Mexican government cannot handle them. Too many Mexican government officials are on cartel payrolls, opposition politicians are murdered, journalists are murdered, people who don't want to be recruited are murdered, and the Mexican government simply does not have the capacity to stop this. That is the definition of a failed state. But it is not a fully failed state, it is a partially failed state.
(2) Your talk about drug addiction as an "appetite" as though it is just a preference rather than an addiction is superficial thinking. There is a reason that people talk about the first does being free. Because part of the strategy is to create an appetite that didn't exist before.
(3) "Southern ally" - to the extent that they will not control fentanyl manufacturing, they aren't being a good ally. All good relationships are a two way street. Talking about how they are an "ally" elides the issue that the Mexican government is not, perhaps can not, take control of the situation from these drug cartels.
(4) Americans will still consume drugs, but we can strategically use military force to change the incentive of drug cartels to manufacture fentanyl.
(5) You assume that ordinary Mexicans will be resentful of American action without really thinking about it from their perspective. Say you were a Mexican and a family member of yours has been killed by a drug cartel and the Mexican government does nothing. Are you going to be resentful of targeted operations that attack the drug cartel without seeking to overthrow your government? Fact is, action against drug cartels are likely to divide the Mexican people, with a significant number of people supporting action while others are more skeptical.
(6) You clearly are the one not aware of the proposals that are actually on the table. No one is talking about an occupation of Mexico along with nation-building and all the rest. The proposal is to attack the drug cartels, not the Mexican government.
(1) No, but I went there! And I observed the people. If you just observed the United States from the news that was reported to you, you'd probably think it was a failed state, too. Constant mass shootings, regular race-based killings, even a violent attempt to overturn the last election. I could keep going, but you get the idea.
(2) Well, an appetite mostly created by the largest opiate manufacturer in the world ... the United States. Can we invade the Sackler family first? Many addicts start with legally-proscribed opiates, and then move on once they have trouble filling prescriptions- that's when the black market steps in.
(3) Yes, Mexico is an ally. Many of our allies don't do everything we want. For that matter, if you really want to stop fentanyl supply, you need to invade China, were all of the precursor chemicals are made. C'mon, you're bloodthirsty, LET'S DO IT!
(4) You have a very high opinion of "strategic military strikes," don't you. So ... you believe it's just all going to work. No collateral damage. Intelligence is always 100% correct. There will be no unforeseen issues. Just like a videogame! I lack your confidence. Not to mention every single country south of us is not eager for more Yankee imperialism.
(5) Please, tell me more about how the average Mexican will think about your grandiose views of an American invasion ... sorry, surgical strikes. How would you feel about Mexico or Canada doing surgical strikes on us, for our own good? Seriously, you haven't even been to the country, and you're presuming to lecture me?
(6) This may shock you, but countries view attacks on their sovereign territory poorly. I don't know what magic ideas you have, but all of them would require ... attacking Mexico without the permission of the government. Which means ... attacking Mexico.
Hey, thanks for playing!
(1) I would be happy to visit Mexico myself. It is a beautiful country and overall the people are awesome. But as you know, there are limits to what can be known by a single person through observation. Especially when they are on vacation and using appropriate caution such that they don't witness the worst crime. I will admit that I have never personally witnessed that assassination of a politician or a journalist at the hands of a cartel. I have not personally witnessed drug cartels paying off Mexican government officials. I did not personally witness Mexican government officials participate in the brutal torture and killing of 43 students who commandeered the "wrong bus" to travel to a protest in Mexico City. But I am also aware that these events happened because they have been reported to have happened by credible sources. And all of these things are evidence that Mexico is, to some degree, a failed state. Ask yourself this. If a person thought they were being targeted by a drug cartel, would your advice to them be to consider calling the Mexican equivalent of 911? Maybe not. You would really have to think about that one, because you do not know whether the police might be in on it. And that is a symptom of a failed state.
(2) Fentanyl is currently added to every drug imaginable. It is added to MDMA. It is added to cocaine. It is added to heroine (which is an opiate). It is added to counterfeit prescription pills that do not have any active ingredient other than fentanyl. In other words, people are getting fentanyl even though they have an appetite for something else. And this is bad, because fentanyl is much more dangerous than that something else.
I happen to think that the crusade against prescription opioids is a major mistake. In fact, many people who need relief from extreme pain are not getting it because of that crusade. And the alternative pain drugs, such as NSAIDs can have side effects that kill people due to their gastrointestinal or cardiovascular side effects. In fact, most prescriptions for opioids were not abused. And even to the extent that they were, people could predictably control their risk of overdose because these prescription drugs were subject to proper quality control.
The bottom-line, you are seeking someone to blame other than the drug cartels. But what you do not realize is that even if you find someone else to partially blame, that doesn't excuse the drug cartels. It would be like letting off someone who hired a hitman off the hook because you blame the hitman. Or letting the hitman off the hook, because you blame the person who purchased their services.
I have noticed a pattern among some liberals of blaming themselves when bad things happen to them. I believe some of them project this onto the country itself, and always seek to blame America when bad things happen to the country. It is a strange sort of psychology of blame that I frankly don't think makes a lot of sense.
In conclusion, on this point, I think we are wrong to demonize prescription opioids. Such prescriptions are a highly legitimate means of pain control. Other methods of pain control have their own disadvantages that can also lead to permanent injury or death. And our decision to punish doctors who prescribe such drugs did help open us up to this fentanyl problems, especially to the extent that major drug cartels, such as Sinaloa cartel, have manufactured fake prescription pills containing fentanyl in order to cater to drug addicts that used to get opioids diverted from the person to whom they were properly prescribed.
However, at this point, as much as I disagree with it, prescription opioids have been demonized. I do not believe we can easily reverse course politically on that. And we have act to lower the fentanyl overdoses that this unsound attack on prescription opioids has enabled. Rather than look at the Sackler family as some sort of villains, we should recognize that opioids have a highly legitimate place in pain control, that it is the patients themselves going through pain that should ultimately decide, and that our efforts to curtail prescription opioids have actually caused more deaths than have been prevented, both because alternatives like NSAIDs can kill people and because those who are used to getting high from diverting prescriptions are now overdosing on fentanyl manufactured by Mexican drug cartels.
(4) Saying that there will be no "collateral damage" which is a euphemism for the deaths of innocents caused by military operations is like saying that there will be no "side effects" from a medicine. It is a fantasy. HOWEVER, as in medicine, the logical question is whether the unwanted "side effects" are worse or better than intended benefit of the "prescription." I believe that precision strikes can be well worth it. Again, note the exponential increase in fentanyl overdoses from 2012 to 2022.
(5) Properly executed, the average Mexican will not experience any such "invasion" with their own senses, but will only read about it in the news. Any assumption that ordinary Mexicans love these vicious drug cartels, which often torture and murders ordinary Mexicans, is false. Quite a few of these ordinary Mexican would in fact love to get revenge against the drug cartels that have murdered members of their families, but they do not have the power as individuals to effectively pursue such an action and their own government is corrupted by said cartels. I am not under any fantasies that American action here would be welcomed by all ordinary Mexicans or most of them. Nor am I suggesting that ordinary Mexicans get a vote on the idea. But the thought that all ordinary Mexicans are going to be monolithically opposed to aggressive action against the drug cartels is simply false. As far as having been to Mexico, I actually have been there. But more importantly, that is a false concern anyway. You were not surveying public opinion when you visited Mexico in a consistent manner. At best, if you asked the opinions of a few people, you have got an unrepresentative sample. You are, obviously, smarter than this. I know this from reading your comments over the years.
This rhetoric about visiting Mexico is highly irrelevant to measuring public opinion. But if it were relevant, please be aware that I have visited the country as well. I only bring that up not because it is truly relevant, but in order to help you increase your awareness. You are making a lot of assumptions in a manner that is less careful than you ideally should be. I must say, I am guilty of the same thing quite often, so please do not take this as some sort of harsh criticism. I need to be reminded of the similar mistakes, sometimes.
(6) The Mexican government is already complicit in violations of American sovereignty by their passive acquiescence and active aid of these drug cartels. Our country, like Mexico, has sovereignty. And that sovereignty includes controlling the goods and services that allowed to be imported into the country. Now, every country has some amount of corruption, but here the corruption is so high that the Mexican government is, in effect, complicit in these violations of American sovereignty. Drug cartels murder journalists, they murder politicians, they put other government officials on their payroll, and drug cartels are tipped off ahead of time about operations against them.
Legitimate Mexican government officials should not cry about the drug cartels, since they are a common enemy. These drug cartels have, unfortunately, turned Mexico into a failed state in certain respects. The Mexican government officials who cry the loudest are likely to be those on the payroll of the drug cartels. Perhaps some politician whose political opponent was conveniently assassinated by a drug cartel will loudly complain. Such opposition is not legitimate. The drug cartels are not merely criminal organizations, they have an active role in subverting Mexican democracy as well.
Your move to transform an attack on drug cartels into an attack on Mexico ignores the fact that the drug cartels themselves are attacking Mexico. Mischaracterizing surgical strikes or conflating them with an occupation or nation-building is simply inaccurate.
"Your move to transform an attack on drug cartels into an attack on Mexico ignores the fact that the drug cartels themselves are attacking Mexico. Mischaracterizing surgical strikes or conflating them with an occupation or nation-building is simply inaccurate."
Launching an attack on the territory of a sovereign nation without its permission ... or, as you keep putting it, multiple attacks, over a period of time, combined with boots on the ground (how else are you going to get that intelligence) ... is an act of war. Full. Stop.
You are living in a fantasy land. First, that you think this will stop illegal drugs.
It won't. Even if your plan worked (it won't), production will just move.
Next, you keep blithely talking about invading an ally and neighboring country, with some fantasy videogame idea that it will be okay because, reasons I guess? When has that ever worked? And you keep assuming that there will be no consequences or blowback, again because we've never seen that.
This isn't a drone strike on some Toyota in the middle of the desert in Somalia, bud. You are just blathering on about invading our largest trading partner, because you can't think of any possible solutions to a problem that ... guess what ... WE CAUSED.
Sorry, sell your crazy somewhere else.
loki13:
(1) Mexican government complicity in violating American sovereignty with respect to the goods that are imported into the country is also an act of war. Most acts of war do not result in war.
(2) “You are living in a fantasy land. First, that you think this will stop illegal drugs.”
False. My position isn’t that surgical strikes can stop drugs, but instead that they can incentivize drug cartels to focus their efforts on activities other than fentanyl. The leaders of drug cartels put a high value on their lives and have viable alternative means of earning money for themselves and their organizations. If we increase the costs of including fentanyl in their operations, we can incentivize them to change their behavior.
(3) You have argued that 90% of fentanyl comes through port of entries. While the point others have made that our statistics in this area may not be perfect, there is a reason for this. That is because the most convenient way to get fentanyl into the United States is through the border with Mexico. If Mexican drug cartels are incentivized to avoid involvement in smuggling fentanyl themselves, this sort of traffic would be much more difficult. After all, it is the Mexican cartels that control this infrastructure. You are not wrong that the problem will not be fully eliminated. But the exponential increase can be arrested and the severity of the problem can be decreased. Current trends are not acceptable or sustainable. Ultimately, acting on both the supply side and the demand side of the fentanyl issue can reduce consumption and thus overdose deaths.
(4) If you have some religious view that military action never works, then I think your method of thinking is flawed. I have explained how such military action would work. It would work by changing the incentives of the drug cartels. You haven’t come out and directly explained why those incentives would be immune to change, instead using vague rhetoric like “when has that ever worked.” Well, to talk about working, we need to define our goals rigorously. Also, we have to recognize that every life saved is a life saved, such that even partial progress is progress. It would be awesome if we could reduce fentanyl deaths to zero. However, such an outcome, however welcome, is unlikely. But if we just got them back to 2012 numbers of 2000 deaths per year instead of 2022 numbers of 109000 deaths per year, that would be excellent progress.
(5) You talk about blowback. But the concept of blowback is a two way street. If the United States should be concerned about blowback from Mexico, then Mexico should be concerned about blowback from the United States. Many Mexican government officials are complicit in the current crisis, through both intentional inaction and intentional action. Many Mexican government officials actively cooperate with the drug cartels, even sometimes participating in murders and taking bribes to look the other way. The Mexican President mocks the problem as just being the result of “too few hugs.” Well, before Mexican officials decided to violate American sovereignty, they should have thought about the potential for blowback. I have noticed a trend among some liberals. They want to make everything a one way street, emphasizing that the United States must go out of its way to respect the sovereignty of other countries, whether or not those countries respect our sovereignty or the sovereignty of our allies. But sovereignty is not a one way street. I am not sure if you are one of those crazy liberals who blames NATO expansion for Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine. But overall I think this “blame America first” attitude is a strange psychological phenomenon without any rational justification. I do not understand why you do not acknowledge that the Mexican cartels and a significant number of the Mexican government officials are blameworthy here.
(6) Your assertion in all caps the the United States caused the fentanyl crisis shows the “blame America first” attitude I mentioned above and is also irrational. In a previous post, you blamed the Sackler family, without acknowledging how the crack down on prescription opioids has created vulnerabilities that Mexican drug cartels have exploited (by, for example, manufacturing counterfeit pills that look like legitimate prescription pills but actually contain fentanyl).
Saying that America CAUSED this is like saying that a woman who has dressed provocatively and has gotten drunk in a place such that she ended vulnerable has CAUSED her sexual assault. There is some truth to the assertion in such cases. Her miscalculation might indeed be a BUT FOR cause of her sexual assault. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is morally wrong for another person to sexually assault her. In the same way, it is wrong for Mexican cartels to use fraud in such a manner that it results in the death of Americans.
It is TRUE that young Americans should not experiment with drugs. HOWEVER, it is natural for young people to engage in risk-taking behavior and we are actually quite happy when such risk-taking results in entrepreneurship rather than drug addiction. To blame these people and say we should ignore their deaths as you seem to be suggesting is very cold, in my view. Especially since their numbers are expanding. And especially since the drugs they are seeking to experiment with are NOT typically fentanyl. These overdoses are nothing other than killing young people through fraud. And you are going to say that the Mexican drug cartels aren't to blame? And that the Mexican government, to the extent that it condones and ratifies the behavior of the drug cartels is not to blame???
Don't be silly, Loki. It's easy. Remember how surgical drone strikes destroyed the Taliban? (I mean, whatever happened to those guys? Haven't heard much about them since 9/11.)
Mr. Nieporent:
What happened in Afghanistan was not surgical strikes, but instead a full on occupation combined with a decade long nation building effort.
Agree with that or not, it is very different to targeting drug cartels. The targeting of drug cartels is more akin to the surgical military strike on Osama bin Laden in Pakistan by American Navy Seals, which was ordered by President Obama, a Democratic President.
Are you equating Pakistan with Afghanistan? Because they are very different situations.
Most long-winded parody account ever!
Your incessant mantra of "surgical strikes" is effectively conclusive evidence of previous drug use.
Why is everyone jumping up and down claiming this is all about invading Mexico? I’m not recommending we do that. I’m saying we escalate.
I guess it needs to be said? Obviously, we need to control our own side of the border.
But Mexico is a failed state with respect to border control. The cartels originate, organize, and are based in Mexico. The government has admitted it cannot control them.
"a failed state with respect to border control" is not a thing.
A failed state with respect to border patrol is a thing. Please see Mexico as an example.
That all parts of the Mexican government haven't failed doesn't mean that no part of the Mexican government is failed.
I mean, come on. In public schools in the United States, some schools do an excellent job and others enable or tolerate chaos among their students.
The real world is hardly ever simple. But it is reasonable to say that the Mexican government enables and tolerates the drug cartels. And that a significant number of Mexican government officials actually go much farther than that.
Canada is our #1 trading partner.
It will be after we nuke Mexico.
'the best solution is for Mexico to police the cartels,'
No, it isn't. The best solution is the legalisation of drugs and the establishment of drug clinics everywhere to give aid to addicts. Also, put the Sacklers in prison.
And give ponies to every little girl!
Let's pretend we live in the real world for a while. We all know that full drug legalization is not happening anytime soon. We might be moving that way, but it'll be decades before we get there, if ever.
So what? It can be sped up or slowed down even further depending on the political will. Invading Mexico is still the worst fucking idea anyone ever had for ending the flow of drugs.
I don't really get the sense of "regret" amongst the neo-neocons advocating military action against Mexico...
Attacking Mexico is a great idea.
Then, Mexico can immediately approach China and Russia to receive military assistance and the US can see how that feels.
Of course that is not necessary. Mexico could just refuse to sell food to red states
And we start dropping nukes.
Woe, Ed you are ridiculous. We are not going to drop nukes regardless of what Mexico does or does not sell. Or even if they ask China for weapons to fight the Yankee scum.
To be fair, he was advocating that the US drop nukes on Mexico before anyone brought up Chinese assistance.
Okay so I need to explain the current misleading mantra: Most fentanyl (or illicit drugs for that matter) are smuggled through ports of entry by US citizens (or green card holders). This mantra is being sold to provide cover for the wide open borders we currently have and have had since Biden's inauguration.
While the mantra has some truth to it, the first thing you have to understand is that US citizens and aliens with proper docs do enter through ports, NOT illegal aliens. Illegals wouldn't get passed inspection, regardless whether they were smuggling contraband.
The fact is America is saturated in illicit narcotics, especially fentanyl. How does it get into America? By the cartels of Mexico.
How do they smuggle? Any darn way they can.
So when the border is wide open by Biden administration design, the cartels will and do push narcotics across. Why are they smuggling between the ports off entry, because they control our Border Patrol to a large degree. They do this by controlling the smuggling of illegal aliens. They steer groups across when and where they know they will be encountered by the USBP. This ties up the patrol personnel, who now have to transport and process. The more children and other than Mexicans requires a lot more time and resources, keeping the patrol agents in the stations. When they do get back to patrolling they frequently come across tracks left by people, and vehicles. These are termed "gotaways," and usually reported only to the dispatch. No press release is made, probably because it isn't considered newsworthy?
A pickup truck loaded with narcotics, especially fentanyl, is light weight. This means a single load equates to a tremendous amount of drugs, which adds to the saturation.
I don't believe any of the GOP candidates said or implies going to war with Mexico is a good idea. They simply are trying to impress upon the American people the situation is dire. We have tried to work with Mexico for many decades, but do mostly to chronic corruption, we are very limited when is comes to being successful.
The fact is the cartels can't exist to the extent they do without America having a weak border, and also with out a robust enforcement of our immigration laws throughout our country. Yup cartels prefer to use their own people (other Mexicans) to smuggle, transport, and arrange for sale their drugs in America. If we tighten up our border by finishing the wall, stop allowing foreign nationals from entry by filing mostly frivolous asylum claims, and enforcing immigration laws throughout America, the cartels would almost immediately shrink. Yes we need to also continue to educate Americans about drug abuse, provide treatment to addicts, and do our best with the Mexican government.
"Okay so I need to explain the current misleading mantra: Most fentanyl (or illicit drugs for that matter) are smuggled through ports of entry by US citizens (or green card holders). This mantra is being sold to provide cover for the wide open borders we currently have and have had since Biden’s inauguration."
I am shocked that someone with a vested interest is advocating for that interest.
In actual fact, the vast majority of fentanyl is smuggled through legal ports of entry. Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE EASIEST. Between the recruitment of US Citizens, and using legal trade as a cover, legal ports of entry allow the cartels to flood the market. If one in twenty shipments gets caught (and that's being kind to Customs), that's an acceptable business loss to the cartels.
Do they use other methods? Sure. Everything from tunnels to submarines to drones to, yes, even smuggling across the border with coyotes. But the vast, vast, vast majority is just straight through legal ports of entry. This is well-known and well-documented, not some "mantra." Well, if it is a mantra, it's because it happens to be true.
But since you know so much, why don't you explain to the class the issues with China (and precursors)? The influence of Chinese organized crime? Go into the money-laundering aspect?
Otherwise, this looks like a long screed that amounts to, "Build the wall, except instead of Mexico paying for it, maybe we'll invade instead."
Whether legal ports of entry are used or not doesn't make a whole lot of difference from the perspective of someone who overdoses on fentanyl when they were trying to get high off of some other drug.
This point has relevance in the context of immigration to some degree. As in, we shouldn't think that tightening our borders against humans will solve the fentanyl problem.
I had some morbid curiosity but wow, you guys have really gone above and beyond. Comet pizza substantiated! Traffic circles cause tornadoes! Nuke Mexico!!!! It’s like the huckleberries all skipped their meds today. Thanks to all, I needed a laugh because otherwise I would cry
Instead of invading Mexico, why not invade the country that's the world's leading producer of opiates?
Oh, snap.
I believe you may be confusing the word "opiate" and "opioid" here, Martinned.
oops, we did that and we lost!
Ilya's really slipping here, just think of all the refugees he'd demand we take in with just this one easy trick.
Yeah, if you think there's a 'flood' of people crossing the border now, wait'll the invasion! And they'll all be refugees, not economic migrants.
Not if we adopt Dr. Ed's "nuke 'em" policy. There are 130 million Mexicans; we probably only have to kill a few million and irradiate the Rio Grande Valley to deter the rest.
Nieporent:
You seem to be possibly gravitating towards Dr. Ed's attention-grabbing trolling because debating the real policy choices is not quite as easy to do.
No one other that "Dr." Ed has mentioned nuking Mexico. And he is quite clearly trolling.
You probably should consider not feeding the trolls.
No, he's actually serious -- nuking a REMOTE AREA as a show of will.
That would do nothing. If fact it is a show of cowardice...fear of sending in US infantry and marines, a techniques that worked so well in Afghanistan.
Is there anything in any of all this mush to suggest that any republican is suggesting that we should invade Mexico? Either in Somin’s post here, or in his post following the debate? Or in the responses?
One throw away line from DeSantis about using special ops in Mexico that was in response to a question and wasn’t even his own policy.
Other than that there’s nothing from anyone in power.
The posts from the faithful indicate that captcrisis and the left believe that the Republican base loves shooting colored people (ignoring that colored people really seem to enjoy it too) and that right-wingers here believe that Pizzavafe has somehow been proven and that Epsten’s suicide proves that , say, Janet Yellen is a pedofile.
There’s nothing but bullshit here. Really super stinky bullshit.
As usual your straining to condemn both sides creates a blazing double standard.
No it didn’t. Autocorrect did. “and that right wingers” was typed to say “and the right wingers on here….” The intent was to point out that they (the right wingers) are unhinged crazies just making shit up.
That was what I’m trying to say. I’m sorry that frigging AC made that change in meaning and may have wrecked the point I was trying to make. I wish I’d have caught it. But I didn’t.
Hopefully we can go back to the op? There is plenty of ridiculous vitriol from the American right toward Mexico. No dispute. But there is no indication that anyone is planning an invasion.
No they're just planning "surgical strikes", which never, ever evolve into anything more than that. Ever!
'that captcrisis and the left believe'
If only there werent commenters here with those points of view.
Well that thread was a journey.
It is predictable, unless one mistakes faux libertarians ("often libertarian," "libertarianish," or just disingenuous right-wingers in unconvincing libertarian drag) for libertarians.