The Volokh Conspiracy
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Massive Sanctions Against Rudy Giuliani for "Willful Shirking of His Discovery Obligations" in Libel Lawsuit Against Him
Among other things, "Default judgment will be entered against Giuliani as a discovery sanction ..., holding him civilly liable on plaintiffs' defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, civil conspiracy, and punitive damage claims ...."
From Freeman v. Giuliani, decided today by Judge Beryl Howell (D.D.C.):
The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure authorize "[l]iberal discovery" for the "sole purpose of assisting in the preparation and trial, or the settlement, of litigated disputes," with "the only express limitations [ ] that the information sought is not privileged, and is relevant to the subject matter of the pending action[,]" but without "differentiat[ing] between information that is private or intimate and that to which no privacy interests attach." As such, "the Rules often allow extensive intrusion into the affairs of both litigants and third parties." Crucial to fulfilling this central purpose of civil discovery is that parties "comply fully and timely with their discovery obligations … to supply relevant testimony and documents for a fair appraisal of the facts and a 'just' determination." Obviously, only extant documents and data are producible, so parties must also take reasonable efforts to preserve potentially relevant evidence, including electronically stored information ("ESI"), when litigation is "reasonably foreseeable." To incentivize and enforce compliance with these procedural rules, sanctions may be imposed when ESI should have been preserved "in the anticipation or conduct of litigation" but "is lost because a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve it[.]"
Defendant Rudolph W. Giuliani is taken at his word that he understands these obligations. He assured this Court directly that he "understand[s] the obligations" because he has "been doing this for 50 years[.]"In this case, however, Giuliani has given only lip service to compliance with his discovery obligations and this Court's orders by failing to take reasonable steps to preserve or produce his ESI. Instead, Giuliani has submitted declarations with concessions turned slippery on scrutiny and excuses designed to shroud the insufficiency of his discovery compliance. The bottom line is that Giuliani has refused to comply with his discovery obligations and thwarted plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and Wandrea' ArShaye Moss's procedural rights to obtain any meaningful discovery in this case.
Rather than simply play by the rules designed to promote a discovery process necessary to reach a fair decision on the merits of plaintiffs' claims, Giuliani has bemoaned plaintiffs' efforts to secure his compliance as "punishment by process." Donning a cloak of victimization may play well on a public stage to certain audiences, but in a court of law this performance has served only to subvert the normal process of discovery in a straight-forward defamation case, with the concomitant necessity of repeated court intervention. Due to Giuliani's discovery conduct, plaintiffs have filed two motions to compel production from Giuliani and his eponymous businesses, Giuliani Communications LLC and Giuliani Partners LLC (collectively, the "Giuliani Businesses"), resulting in two discovery hearings, the issuance of multiple orders seeking his discovery compliance or otherwise sanctioning him for noncompliance. Along the way, Giuliani has been afforded several extensions of time to comply with court orders and his discovery obligations. As the discussion below reveals, however, the result of these efforts to obtain discovery from Giuliani, aside from his initial production of 193 documents, is largely a single page of communications, blobs of indecipherable data, a sliver of the financial documents required to be produced, and a declaration and two stipulations from Giuliani, who indicates in the latter stipulations his preference to concede plaintiffs' claims rather than produce discovery in this case.
Giuliani's preference may be due to the fact, about which he has made no secret, that he faces liability, both civil and criminal, in other investigations and civil lawsuits. Perhaps, he has made the calculation that his overall litigation risks are minimized by not complying with his discovery obligations in this case. Whatever the reason, obligations are case specific and withholding required discovery in this case has consequences.
Giuliani's willful discovery misconduct has now led, inexorably, to plaintiffs' pending motion for sanctions due to his "Failure To Preserve Electronic Evidence," seeking, inter alia, the entry of default judgment against Giuliani. Giuliani has also not complied with two other court orders requiring him both to produce certain requested, routine financial documents relevant to plaintiffs' claims for punitive damages, and to reimburse plaintiffs for attorneys' fees and costs associated with their first motion to compel, failures for which plaintiffs request additional sanctions. Additionally, plaintiffs' have sought sanctions due to noncompliance by Giuliani's eponymous businesses with document and deposition requests, after their motion to compel compliance was granted as conceded.
Facing court orders compelling his discovery compliance and potential default judgment as a sanction for failing to preserve ESI, Giuliani filed two personally executed, but unsworn, "stipulations" admitting, for the purposes of this litigation, liability on the factual elements of plaintiffs' claims and their entitlement to punitive damages. Giuliani's stipulations hold more holes than Swiss cheese, with his latest stipulation expressly reserving "his arguments that the statements complained of are protected and non-actionable opinion for purposes of appeal[,]" which arguments were previously rejected in this Court's decision denying defendant's motion to dismiss. The reservations in Giuliani's stipulations make clear his goal to bypass the discovery process and a merits trial—at which his defenses may be fully scrutinized and tested in our judicial system's time-honored adversarial process—and to delay such a fair reckoning by taking his chances on appeal, based on the abbreviated record he forced on plaintiffs. Yet, just as taking shortcuts to win an election carries risks—even potential criminal liability—bypassing the discovery process carries serious sanctions, no matter what reservations a noncompliant party may try artificially to preserve for appeal.
The downside risk of turning the discovery process into what this Court has previously described as a "murky mess" is that Rule 37 provides a remedy: sanctions, including entry of default judgment, against Giuliani. Given the willful shirking of his discovery obligations in anticipation of and during this litigation, Giuliani leaves little other choice. For the reasons set out below, the pending motion is granted. Default judgment will be entered against Giuliani as a discovery sanction pursuant to Rules 37(e)(2)(C) and 37(b)(2)(a)(vi), holding him civilly liable on plaintiffs' defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, civil conspiracy, and punitive damage claims, and Giuliani is directed to reimburse plaintiffs for attorneys' fees and costs associated with their instant motion.
In addition, as this case now heads to trial to determine any damages due on plaintiffs' claims, Giuliani will be given a final opportunity to comply with discovery relevant to the determination of damages, both compensatory and punitive, or face imposition of additional discovery-related sanctions, under Rule 37(b)(2), in the form of adverse instructions and exclusion of evidence at trial, as outlined in more detail below. Specifically, Giuliani is directed, by September 20, 2023, to do the following:
- produce complete responses to plaintiffs' requests for financial documents, set out in plaintiffs' Requests for Production ("RFP") Numbers 40 and 41, which he was previously ordered to produce by June 30, 2023;
- ensure the Giuliani Businesses produce complete responses to plaintiffs' requests for financial documents and viewership metrics, including RFP Numbers 19 and 35, seeking records sufficient to show how his podcast, called Common Sense, generates revenue, including through advertising agreements and distribution contracts, and records sufficient to summarize viewer and listener metrics for Giuliani's statements on social media and Common Sense from the date of original publication through the present, including reach, count, page visits, posts, shares, time spent, impressions, and listener numbers, and the number of online views and/or impressions of any statements Giuliani made about plaintiffs, as described in the Amended Complaint ¶¶ 57-101, as well as designate one or more corporate representatives to sit for depositions on those businesses' behalf; and
- reimburse plaintiffs' attorneys' fees and costs associated with their successful first motion to compel discovery from Giuliani, in the amount totaling $89,172.50, with interest on that amount from July 25, 2023, which is when this reimbursement payment was originally due; and
- ensure the Giuliani Businesses reimburse plaintiffs' attorneys fees associated with their successful motion to compel discovery from the Businesses, in the amount totaling $43,684, with interest on that amount to accrue from September 20, 2023 until the date of final judgment against Giuliani personally if his eponymous businesses fail to comply….
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From "America's Mayor" and Time's Man Of The Year, down to being disbarred and not even being able to find a lawyer who is willing to represent him.
Everything Trump touches dies. This is a great exhibit for that.
He is pure orange poison. What do these people think they’re getting for staying around?
Every time I see a leftist make a derogatory reference to a political opponent's skin color, I think about what the first freedmen elected to Congress endured at the hands and tongues of the same party. The DEI facade will never change what you've always been.
Ok, yeah, I'm as liberal as I can be. I constantly rant on both od the Bidens for their lack of ethics and the progressives here hate me because I'm constantly bashing on the ignorance of their programs, but you and only you have the brains to figure out my disguise. Great job, Clouseau!!
When someone cries "Orange Man Bad!", I don't feel compelled to investigate their entire life story before labeling them a leftist. Nobody else should, either.
Shorter Kleppe: I'm too lazy to think before I post.
Also, "Orange Man Bad" is a rightist mockery of what they think leftists are saying, not something that leftists said. (Which is not to say that there aren't snide leftist references to Trump's makeup choices.)
bevis the lumberjack : " ....and the progressives here hate me...."
In the hope of giving you comfort, we really don't. At worst, we find you prone to posturing with elastic standards obvious to everyone but you. Aside from that, we hold you a fine chap!
Are you somehow under the impression that Trump is orange because of his ethnicity? And that calling him orange is somehow racism?
Yes, it is!!! -- It's derogatory toward those of Scottish ancestry and who are Protestant.
Ever hear of "William of Orange"?
During "the troubles", it was the IRA on one side and The Orangemen on the other. Calling someone an "Orangeman" is like calling someone a member of the KKK. Here is a fairly neutral BBC article on this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-18769781
What isn't mentioned is that the Irish Protestants are actually Scottish -- the British deported them over to Ireland to subjugate both Scotland (William of Wallace) *and* Ireland. So it is both religion *and* race here.
Trump's mother, Mary Anne MacLeod Trump, was born in Scotland so if Obama is "Black" because of a father born in Africa, Trump is "Scottish" because of a mother born in Scotland.
This may take the cake for stupid comment of the year.
An orange cake?
He make joke?
In weighing the answer to the question of whether it was meant as humor, one has to consider all prior posts that are equally detached from logic and presented as serious, reasonable argument. Given the balance is largely on the side of bat-shit crazy, it's likely he was serious.
If, in this case, it truly was meant as humor, I'd consider it a self-pwn.
If he did Poe's Law comes to mind.
Mr Ed's comment is grossly stupid even for him. He must try hard to make himself appear so clueless.
This is so great, are you actually insane or is this satire?
If it’s satire it’s pretty brilliant.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Is dumbness contagious now? Maybe we should all wear masks while blogging. 😉
For God's sake, don't tell BravoCharlieDelta.....
Are you saying that orange is some sort of natural skin color?
One of the things that keep me coming back is to read your insanity and to remind myself that you want people to think that you're an academic.
‘it’s derogatory toward those of Scottish ancestry’
‘Ever hear of “William of Orange”?’
The DUTCHMAN? The Duc D’Orleans? Which is a REGION. In FRANCE.
‘Orange’ in NI is NOTHING to do with skin colour.
Mocking Trump’s fake tan, though dumb and oh so tired, has nothing to do with NORTHERN IRELAND, SCOTLAND, HOLLAND or FRANCE.
You unutterable clown.
Is this idiot seriously trying to claim that the House of Orange = a racial thing, and thus mocking Trump for wearing more paint than a painted lady is somehow racist?
Historical note: The 'Orange' of European History is a political dynasty, not a color. They were the ruling family of what is now Holland, and after the Glorious Revolution briefly the royal family of the UK.
If he'd tried for sectarianism, it would be slightly less stupid. But only slightly.
I can't tell if you are honestly unaware that Donnie's apparent complexion is the result of cosmetics, or just so hot to make a nonsense comparison that you simply don't care.
Either way, your words are an utter waste of time.
And dumb shit like that is why nobody takes you lot seriously on race. Trump's skin colour. 'Orange.' Please.
Trump’s actual skin color would be considered ‘white’. I don’t see that mentioned here.
It’s his *makeup* and *toupee* that are being made fun of by calling him (Orange, Orange-utang, Cheeto Jesus, etc)…
And not everyone who finds Trump to be a disgusting POS is a ‘leftist’… I mean, the man is responsible for the longest losing streak in post-1980 Republican history…
I'll never understand the large number of people willing to go to the mat for this guy.
Professionals that will risk it all for trump, and ordinary citizens that will sacrifice family and friendships in order to maintain perfect loyalty to trump.
It's difficult to understand. My guess is that it is something like scientology, or a roach motel. Once you're in, it is difficult to get out.
ETTD is absolutely a valid observation, but I don't want to let it sound like this was just something that happened to Giuliani. Trump didn't just touch him (ewwwwwww); Giuliani ran into his embrace. This was all of his own volition.
He's really worth a tragic play or opera. Giuliani gave energetic support to Trump during his first presidential run and clearly expected a major appointment in the administration. But Trump coldly stiffed him.
Instead of taking that lesson to heart, Rudy doubled-down, committing himself to every ugly sleazy task his new master ordered. He spent over two years rooting through Ukraine on a fruitless search for Biden dirt, always trailed by his low-grade criminal henchmen, Furman and Parnas. This involved offering deals to oligarchs under U.S. indictment, talking to corrupt politicians reviled around the world, and – as the CIA warned the Trump White House – negotiating with Russian spies.
And it wasn’t all for Trump. Giuliani struck a side-deal (“consulting”) with an Ukrainian oligarch upset over the U.S. ambassador’s anti-corruption stance. He earned that sordid dollar by aiding the campaign to get the Ambassador fired. This involved conning Trump into thinking she was saying meanie things about him.
Of course, when Trump went into election-steal-mode, there was no task too dishonest, reprehensible, or painfully ludicrous to watch that Rudy wouldn’t do. Having decided Trump was his meal ticket, he whored away every last drop of his remaining integrity.
It's tragic b/c Giuliani was a very capable US Attorney and then Mayor of NY. Then he went into private practice, and then embraced Trump. That was his downfall. Instead of being remembered as the mayor who cleaned up NY, he will be remembered as the Trump Consigliere. Sad.
It’s even worse than that. Giuliani comes off as more Fredo than Tom Hagen.
Didn't Fredo actually manage to run a successful casino?
Good point. Giuliani certainly couldn't. Trump either, for that matter.
Giuliani was not only a capable US attorney, he played a large role in assisting Italian prosecutor's. Falcone and Borsalino imprinson a few hundred mafiosi in the famed maxi-trial.
It is hard to imagine a greater downfall.
One thing that everyone should know by now is Trump's superpower is the ability to corrupt people. I am reminded of lines of the Goldfinger theme " (He) Beckons you to enter his web of sin" and then the warning "But don't go in". Too many have been ensnared.
"He loves only gold."
It checks out.
Best Bond theme song ever!
I think I like "Live and Let Die" a little better. Those are the memorable two for me.
View to a Kill binds them all in darkness.
I checked and can confirm that I do not remember it.
For "this world in which we live in"
May Paul Mccartney be forgiven.
If you're singing in the shower, just go "this world in which we're livin'" and nobody will arrest you. Probably.
I like to suggest "Another Way to Die" by Jack White from Quantum of Solice, as another great Bond Theme.
" and not even being able to find a lawyer who is willing to represent him."
That is an interesting question -- if he is *criminally* charged, the govt *must* find him a lawyer and I presume this includes a defendant who is of means but so reprehensible that no one volunteers. Wouldn't Gideon still apply?
Then if he is facing criminal charges, shouldn't his public defender be advising his civil discovery? Or, conversely, shouldn't the civil discovery be AFTER the criminal trials are resolved?
No.
Criminal defendants would certainly prefer it that way.
Currently eligibility for public defense is based on financial means only.
'Everything Trump touches dies.'
I think Giuliani was more than willing to touch himself. If you know what I mean.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I mean ... it's discovery. I can't understand how you can f... mess up this badly. Sure, default is always an available sanction, but a court will give you more than enough rope.
It takes quite a litigant to actually hang themselves on it.
Seriously ... Giuliani used to be a respected AUSA. This is ... sad. Goes to show you what happens when you become an attorney for Trump.
Yes, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CwA1sE7tuTu/
USA, not AUSA.
Sorry, my bad... too used to typing that. You are correct, Giuliani was THE US Att'y for the S.D.N.Y.
Alex Jones showed him the way it's done?
Just wait. Someone will show up here to make the claim that this is political persecution and the Democrats are out to get him because he represented Trump.
Both of your fellow travelers' comments before yours are literally gloating that Giuliani's downfall is a direct consequence of his association with Trump, so maybe don't be surprised when your opposition adopts that framing.
Woosh.
Nope.
First, I am not gloating. I am truly saddened by this. Giuliani, by all accounts, was an excellent AUSA. I find no joy in seeing him reduced to ... this.
Second, you're missing the causality. It's not that people are going after him because he's associated with Trump; instead, it's that association with Trump debases the attorneys. Your best case scenario, from what I've seen, is you get quickly, a little wiser and not getting paid. Worst case is you tried to hard to enable his schemes, and you end up taking the fall.
It's not that people go after Trump. It's that when you work for Trump, you end up doing bad things. And eventually, that comes back to bite you.
The mobster mentality is contagious somehow...
“You’re missing the causality”
The causality you offered was “becom[ing] an attorney for Trump” (original post) not “doing bad things” while representing Trump (second post). I responded to the post you wrote, not the one you wish you had.
Sure, keep digging.
Those are the same thing, except for the ones who wise up enough to quit pretty quickly.
Hole. Digging.
Thanks for playing!
Kleppe : “… so maybe don’t be surprised when your opposition adopts that framing.”
Fair enuff. But two points :
1. Giuliani’s downfall (and criminality) is a direct consequence of his association w/ Trump.
2. His legal problems aren’t “political persecution”
An issue may generate two opposite reactions based on ideology, but that doesn’t mean both are equally true. Today’s Right often seems to claim a right to its own “truth” – facts be damned. This isn’t good for public discourse.
"An issue may generate two opposite reactions based on ideology"
I think it is frequently possible to predict how someone will respond to an issue based on political ideology, but it's important to not conflate that with reactions being downstream of ideology. Said another way, I do not adopt beliefs based on my political ideology; I adopt politics based on my beliefs.
"1. Giuliani’s downfall (and criminality) is a direct consequence of his association w/ Trump.
2. His legal problems aren’t “political persecution”
An issue may generate two opposite reactions based on ideology, but that doesn’t mean both are equally true. Today’s Right often seems to claim a right to its own “truth” – facts be damned. This isn’t good for public discourse."
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.
jimc5499 : "If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck"
I couldn't agree more. People who do illegal things often face legal problems.
Thus Giuliani.
Look, some of these charges are overdone. But that’s a very common thing these days with DAs and federal prosecutors. So in this case is the overfilling Trump or is it simply modern prosecutorial practice?
It's Lawfare.
"Modern prosecutorial practice."
I will forgive you your sins, as you are not a practicing attorney, but this isn't a prosecution. This is a private action. There are no charges, this is defamation (a private right of action).
And this isn't overdone; this is a result of ... ugh, complete and total disregard for basic professionalism. Seriously, he completely disregarded, over a long period of time, basic discovery requirements.
"...he completely disregarded, over a long period of time, basic discovery requirements."
Is he unique in that regard? Was it proper for the judge to speculate on the possible reasons for doing so?
Yes, this is far beyond the pale.
In fact, in almost any other case I would say that to issue the sanction of a default (which is allowable, although incredibly disfavored) is the kind of thing that a judge bends over backwards to avoid in order to avoid reversal.
...but, the sheer length and stupidity of the conduct, combined with the stipulation that ... I still don't believe this ... would have allowed default but tried to preserve appellate right ... (?) was likely the last straw.
I can't explain this any more. This is flabbergasting to any person who has practiced. All attorneys are familiar with "discovery games," but this is so far beyond the pale that it's hard to understand what Giuliani was doing.
Thanks. Again, was it proper for the judge to speculate on the reasons?
Yes. After all, the Court, in sanctioning him, had to find that it was willful. In addition, the Court would have had access to his pleadings and/or stipulations (and possibly his testimony at hearings) to which the Court referred.
Again, to the extent that Giuliani did not want to turn over information based on a supposed Fifth Amendment privilege, he could have done so; but that would also have been ... interesting. Because that is testimonial (so it's limited, and wouldn't apply to a lot of the documents) and wouldn't apply to his companies' production, either.
But to be honest, speculating that he might have litigation reasons to do so is a lot nicer than saying, "Seriously? Is he brain damaged?"
I assume bevis is talking about the set of cases against Trump, not this action against Giuliani. (Or at least that's the reading that makes sense and I try to read charitably in attempt to understand the point that people are trying to make.)
There is a distinction to be made, though apparently not by you, between an association with Trump leading to being a sui generis fuck-up, as here, and an association with Trump leading to being a co-conspirator, as alleged in other indictments.
My impression is that Giuliani's downward trajectory began well before Donald Trump, starting when he tried to extend his term as mayor at the beginning of his "a noun, a verb and 9/11" era.
It certainly is a direct consequence of his choice to associate with Trump. Same with anyone that chooses to associate with a criminal (known or unknown) who leads them to break the law. The root cause could be entirely a flaw with Giuliani and he and Trump were perfect companions as the Laurel and Hardy of insurrectionists.
Nobody will be surprised when they adopt that framing, they never shut up about it.
"Just wait. "
I aim to please
Obama judge. Heated and intentionally insulting rhetoric.
How does "just as taking shortcuts to win an election carries risks—even potential criminal liability" have anything to do with this civil lawsuit?
i.e., "the only way we will get a fair hearing is if we have a pro-Trump judge"
…and a pro-Trump investigator, and a pro-Trump prosecutor, and a pro-Trump jury. (It's not even enough that they're Republicans! Because they might not be pro-Trump, and then they're just RINOs!)
Shhhhhh!
Don't make Trump's argument for him.
RINOs violating HIPPAs are the worst!
Well played, sir -- well played.
This is really going to cut into his limoncello budget. NYC hotel bar managers shed a collective tear.
Any of the denizens here going to help out Rudy and hit the bedminster fundraiser? Only 100k a plate!
Interesting. Certainly not in every case, but it's not rare for a party in a tough factual posture to stipulate to liability in order to fast-forward to appeal on a legal point they know they can't win before the current judge but feel like they can win above. So the quoted conditional language doesn't seem outrageous at all and just seems to be explicitly preserving an appeal point to avoid too-clever waiver arguments down the road.
It's not immediately clear what purpose there would be behind judgesplaining that stipulation away and substituting a default judgment, other than to worsen the standard of review and/or just continue to muckrake. Could be wrong, but the opinion certainly reads very "hot."
How the mighty have fallen. At the beginning of 2008 I thought he would be the next president. Now he is completely and indisputably fucked beyond recall.
I wondered that, too. A week after 9/11, when he walked that woman down the aisle to fulfill his promise, he had a staggering 98% approval rating.
People who believe in God don't give God a 98% approval rating.
I will note that Judge Howell is a Jewish liberal woman formerly married to a black man, who hates white Christians, as evidenced by her bias and rulings in the J6 cases.
Hey Bernstein, look it's an anti-Semite reading your page!
At this blog, hoppy025 gets a pass.
...as do you.
I have been censored by this blog more than once . . . and some of that censorship continues through the writing of this sentence.
(Prof. Volokh is entitled to impose viewpoint-driven censorship at his blog -- his playground, his rules. I try to comply with the rules he has identified.
Partisan hypocrites have rights, too.)
You poor oppressed little thing. Maybe during the next pandemic they'll march for you? Do you think they saved their pink pussy hats?
I am not oppressed. Not nearly. I have been very fortunate . . . as have my political preferences throughout my lifetime in America.
I was born Jewish so I can't be an anti-semite. At least that what's you people say about the blacks.
Have you come to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
No. I'm a neo-Pagan now.
I'll bet you are.
Well atleast you're no longer a Satan worshipping Jew.
So, no matter how baseless the claim, a plaintiff asserting harm by a defendant can compel the defendant to disclose private information to the plaintiff. If this is actually the way the federal courts work, that must change. Anyone with a purse can work irreparable harm on someone they dislike by bringing a lawsuit.
It's not how "federal courts" work. It's how courts work. It's called discovery.
Seriously, this is like legal practice 101. And for that matter, he completely disregarded even the basics. It's not like they were asking for intimate details of his private life; they were asking for the basic information they should get as plaintiffs in a lawsuit.
Um, yeah -- you're a litigator (if not, you play a pretty damn good one on TV). It's also legal practice 101 (ok, maybe 102) to learn in a motion to compel to couch your requests (and the alleged deficiencies) in the most syrupy-sweet, reasonable way in the hope that you get exactly the dollar-to-donuts result here, where a sympathetic judge uncritically hoovers up your characterizations and drops them into the opinion.
Reality here is likely, as is usually the case, somewhere in between. But it's silly and unhelpful to matter-of-factly posture that 1) the requests were all blissfully reasonable and truly relevant -- not "relevant" in the pre-2015 FRCP 26 wastebasket sense as the opening of the opinion trumpets, but actually proportional to the needs of the case (a concept the opinion doesn't at all explore but I bet you a nickel Rudy G raised in briefing); and 2) the failures of retention/production were deliberate and malicious rather than the sort of IT-driven screwup that any of us litigating for very long at all have been on the thin side of from time to time.
Again, I refer you to the the opening sentence of the opinion, which excuses away their efforts to do exactly that: "but without 'differentiat[ing] between information that is private or intimate and that to which no privacy interests attach.' As such, 'the Rules often allow extensive intrusion into the affairs of both litigants and third parties.'"
What's actually "silly and unhelpful" is to invent fanciful defenses for someone's litigation conduct when you haven't bothered to read any of the relevant documents to even so much as know what arguments the litigant actually made.
In fact, his response to plaintiff's motion to compel did not rely on claims that the requests were disproportionate to the needs of the case; it relied on the argument that he had produced everything he could produce and he just didn't have the stuff. This sanctions motion and order is not based on a ruling that any objections were invalid, but rather is based upon his complete failure to preserve records, and his failure to adequately explain any lack of preservation.
Hey, Loki apparently didn't even read the opening paragraph of the opinion. We're discussing his chosen topic of "litigation 101," to which I added some educated guesses based on the issues that usually are litigated in this sort of situation. Sounds like most of them (maybe all of them, but I ain't pulling the whole docket to double check you) were correct.
OK, so possibly I lose a nickel on that one -- though this deal has been going on for a number of rounds of dispute as is always the case, so just saying the argument wasn't in a single brief (for one of at least two motions, and one which you didn't bother to share with the class) isn't particularly illuminating.
But even if so, double or nothing that there's a damn good reason -- wherever it happens to land in the procedural history -- the judge went out of her way to say "even the private/intimate stuff" in the opening sentence.
OK, so it sounds like you agree this ton-of-bricks ruling was made based on completely subjective factfinding by (checks notes) one Judge Beryl Howell, but who I suppose you might at least try to say with a straight face hasn't issued a single ruling anywhere, anytime, about anyone that might tend to suggest she has a particular set of lenses through which she views matters in this factual ambit, particularly ones that require or permit subjective factfinding.
And judicial bias aside, you've been in the business long enough that I'm very comfortable you've been on the short side of this sort of situation before, even if you choose not to admit it -- and I'll put up another nickel that would be because the arguments you made there in the course of zealously representing your client would tend to... blunt the ones you're making here.
It's a shame you had to drop out of law school in your first semester, Yogi. Otherwise you would know something about civil litigation, discovery, and Rule 26.
This is the TrumpLaw defense: the idea that the way the civil and criminal justice system work for 330 million Americans should not apply to Trump and a handful of his cronies. Everyone else on the planet has to produce discovery in response to a lawsuit, but Rudy Giuliani shouldn't have to, because reasons.
And, of course, when Rudy Giuliani was US Attorney, he engaged in discovery tactics that were every bit as oppressive. I'm sure defendants, both civil and criminal, could be found from his days as a prosecutor who could tell us all about how he put their lives under a microscope and asked for every piece of paper they ever generated.
Of course, they could. Rudi was actually doing his job then.
Not that I have a lot of sympathy for Giuliani here, but 1. That’s not really how criminal discovery works and 2. USAOs are usually the defense in civil cases, more so in Giuliani’s time.
Criminal discovery is nearly an oxymoron, but a prosecutor can use a grand jury as a (pre-indictment) discovery tool which can be far far more intrusive than civil discovery.
The excuses for Trump and Giuliani are just that, excuses. And poor ones, at that.
But the civil discovery process needs a major overhaul. It takes too long, it's too expensive, and parties often exploit it to to get an unfair advantage in litigation unconnected to the merits of the case.
The two positions are not mutually exclusive.
I tend to agree. Removing the issue away from this case (which, again, wtf?), discovery in any moderately complex litigation has become insanely burdensome.
To be honest, however, I would argue that the majority of the problem is probably ESI-related. The sheer volume of ESI, and the proliferation of different types of ESI, from spreadsheets to emails to slack messages to instagram DMs is ... overwhelming.
ESI is just a basic document management and search problem. It's been solved for decades. Is there no standard legal software used for intake, OCR, and search of this stuff? I would think there'd be a number of providers out there for something like that. (Expensive, no doubt, but it should exist.)
If not, there's a business opportunity.
There’s plenty on the management and searching side, yes. One major challenge that software itself can’t address centers around lassoing documents from all possible reasonable sources in the first place (corporate or personal backups, cloud storage, old computers/servers, random flash drives, etc. etc.). And as you can imagine, there’s generally a proportional relationship between the lateness of the discovery of a particular source and the amount of fuss the other side raises about it, particularly if they can find any content in it whatsoever that they can paint as bad and argue it was withheld deliberately.
Another one that comes up a good deal is the doc management software not being able to view/extract text from every single esoteric and/or legacy-format file that a party might have. Sometimes you have to get fairly creative to find a solution — and it can be a particularly high-stakes game when the document itself is most likely benign, but not being able to demonstrate that gives the other side ammo to amp up the specter that it’s something damning. (Educated guess either a weird file format or a file that for whatever reason couldn’t be decrypted is behind the “blobs of indecipherable data” in the opinion.)
There's actually quite a lot of legal software for ESI.
That's not the problem. There are a lot of problems, actually. First is just the sheer volume. Yes, there are advances in getting parties to agree on "search terms" to comb through and produce responsive date, but ... it's still a process, because the side requesting the data always wants overly inclusive terms because they are afraid of missing something (think of people talking in "code" or people using their email to set up a phone call).
Next, of course, there are more problems- like privilege. You have to have actual people review all those documents before producing them. And real people, or ... you know, non-people like contract attorneys (I KID!)... they cost money and take time.
Not to mention all of the different sources. Yes, some organizations are much better than others, but most aren't. Just think of any random mid-sized company, and think of all of the ways that its employees communicate and use technology.
In the past 15 years, this problem has gone from bad to "Oh lord, I am not looking forward to this at all."
Yep. You've got a variety of formats, from simple text documents (word/PDF) to spreadsheets to emails to text messages to slack messages. You've got a variety of places that documents are stored, from the cloud to local servers to individual employees' laptops to people's phones or other personal devices.
And then of course with ESI there are often multiple versions of documents that get saved over the years, and no attorney seeking production is going to be satisfied with just the final product; s/he's going to want all the drafts, too — just in case there was a smoking gun in "SafetyReport v12.1 FINAL" that was taken out of "SafetyReport v12.2 FINAL FINAL."
And things that would've in the old days been written on post-its and then tossed end up saved somewhere as an electronic note, and someone has to look at them.
I think most people can accept that argument in good faith. Nobody likes discovery (though they might like the ability to use it to put pressure on the other side). But do you have anything concrete? "It's too long and expensive" is not really an actionable complaint.
Given the consensus here among practitioners, I'm gonna try and remember to ask what improvements folks would make in the open thread tomorrow.
That you abstain.
A plaintiff or defendant can compel the other side to produce information relevant to the trial during discovery, through the subpoena process.
The point is to prevent 'surprise' evidence & witnesses - which unlike in TV court shows, are never allowed.
If the recipient of the subpoena disagrees with it (or thinks it's unconstitutional) they can request a hearing & argue to have it thrown out.
What they cannot do, is have a toddler-fit & say 'Mine, not yours! Not giving'... If you do that, the judge will crush you.
Given the U.S. electorate's novelty seeking behavior, we have to consider the possibility Trump is the first president from prison.
It's not the electorate that's the problem; it's the electoral college. If we end up with a president attempting to govern from a prison cell, we will have the electoral college to thank for it.
They sure wasted a lot of campaign money targeting the wrong voters, when it was always the collegiate voters the whole time.
The problem is how a candidate that received 7 million fewer votes across the country still only needed around 42,000 more votes in 3 states to end up winning. The problem is how that fact allowed that candidate and his team to put pressure on election officials in those states, members of Congress, and the VP to find any excuse to disregard the certified results and make him President anyway. The problem was how an election that wasn't close nationally appeared close enough to convince that candidate's die-hard supporters that his claims of the election being stolen from him resulted in over a thousand of them storming the Capitol because they weren't going to let them take away their Trumpy Bear.
The Founding Fathers no doubt overlooked your public comment before implementing that "problem" -- and absolutely would have implemented its inverse (where contests essentially turn into efforts to "flood the zone" in a handful of high-population, metropolitan states that would just love to even more effectively dictate policy to states that tend to have more resources and less people). </sarc>
Thankfully, there's no "solution" coming down the road due to procedural safeguards they put in place at the time, so there's really no point in continuing to emote about it rather than playing the game under the rules that exist. </not sarc at all>
And the wonderful system they gave us may well give us a president trying to govern from jail.
I'm not emoting; I'm just saying that your beautiful theory aside, Trump is how the electoral college works in actual practice.
There were no "metropolitan states" in 1789. And the big states were the ones that "had more resources."
No, Sloth. Nationwide, as K2 implies, the voters got it right, rejecting Trump twice.
The Electoral College (Article 2 Section 1 Clause 3), intended as a way to block populist ideologues like Trump from the presidency, mis-weighted the votes of individual states in ways the Founders never thought possible, ending ironically, with choosing Trump.
I'm surprised you missed this—it was in all the papers. (That is, unless you intended your comment as subtle irony. In that case, Bravo!)
Wow, that's some razor-thin calibration: someone so populist that the EC was supposedly specifically made to block him, but one not populist enough to win without it.
And if the "mis-weighting" you suggested would still avoid just mirroring the NPV but somehow in a different way that just coincidentally would have disadvantaged Trump, that feels even more fragile.
One of the arguments for the electoral college is that it makes it harder for dangerous demagogues to get elected. Post Trump, that argument is a laugh riot.
It's not "razor-thin calibration". It was the clear intent for much of the structure of the federal government to temper the 'passions' of the populace with more educated and sober leaders being in between the people and power. The EC, state legislatures choosing Senators, many states limiting voting to land-owners, etc., was their way of making sure that 'elites' could prevent 'mob rule' or a demagogue from becoming President.
The right is always sneering about elites, but they still support structures that make rule by elites more likely. Not to mention that electing a billionaire was the epitome of putting an elite in charge. As long as the elites that get power tell voters on the right what they want to hear, and that they will use the power against their foes, they gladly hand them that power.
May well have been. But that's not what happens today, and is the exact opposite of what NPV proponents say they want. In any event, that seems like a fully separate issue from PM's theory that the states' votes are somehow mis-weighted and that changing those weights somehow would fix the problem.
If you'll allow me the notion that Obama was whatever you want to call the elite version of "new money" (and that in fact he freely played both sides of that transitional state as needed), I'm hard-pressed to see how that hasn't been true of every president since Regan turned over the reigns. And as I see it, Washington in general tends to ostracize/marginalize people who run on -- and then actually try to maintain -- their outsider credentials. I agree it's a massive problem that likely needs some sort of disruptive solution.
This grumbling about the 'elites' is ahistorical...
Pop quiz question:
Who was the richest President prior to Donald Trump, in inflation-adjusted wealth?
Once you know the answer, you will know what the founders thought about 'elites' as leaders....
LoB, the primary fear of the Founders was that direct democracy is too easily incited and manipulated by a popular demagogue. So, they insulated the passions of the mob from the levers of government through several mechanisms, including the separation of powers (plus a bicameral legislature), a severely limited chief executive, and the Electoral College, which per an originalist interpretation, would certainly have blocked the demagogic Trump from the presidency.
In the first and last of the Federalist papers (No.1 and No.85), Alexander Hamilton foresaw charismatic leaders who might start as heroes, but advance as demagogues and end as tyrants.
In Federalist No.47 and No.69 respectively, James Madison and Hamilton made their case for a different kind of chief executive, a President—constrained by separation of powers, submitting to the people’s periodic reapproval, accepting their will in a peaceful transfer of power—who would lead a new United States of America as a representative democracy specifically constructed to prevent a leader’s (their word) "Tyranny."
Finally, check Hamilton's Federalist No.68 for details on how the Electoral College would have undeniably prevented Donald Trump from assuming the Presidency, ensuring...
Yet, its unforeseen consequence was allowing the opposite of that in anointing Donald Trump in 2016, despite the actual democratic will of the people.
The reason Trump got elected was the candidate selection process sucks.
If we had a better way of picking who gets to be on the ballot, we wouldn’t be dealing with a 2016 scenario where both parties nominated the worst-possible people & one of them had to win.
As per the Supreme Court, the electors can be required to vote a specific way by their states.
Most are.
Appealing to the EC to defy state election results isn't a working prospect..
That said, it very literally was college-graduate Republicans who kicked Trump out in 2020 - by splitting their ticket and voting for Biden.
" If we end up with a president attempting to govern from a prison cell"
We won't.
I agree; I think Biden is going to be re-elected.
One thing is certain , he will be found guilty in DC.
You don't follow things very closely, do you? Giuliani already stipulated guilt (civil liability, actually). This hearing is not about guilt, but determining damages. As the judge observes, by his own actions trying to throw sand into the gears of justice, Giuliani has defaulted any argument on limiting damages.
Switching justice metaphors, this falls into the grinds slow but exceedingly fine category.
My comment was about Trump. Not Rudy
Doesn't matter, it would have been a stupid comment either way.
Well Krychek, you may say that and be certain. I'm sure on some level we are alot alike, but there is one way we will always be different.
I don't know what human shit tastes like. And I never will. hbu?
And you never open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.
The data say what the data say.
You wouldn’t know data if it bit you in the butt.
Queen almathea : Don’t get him started on butts.
He also has a bizarre thing for Chinese penises....
The DOJ - other than Trump's sham special-counsel - does not bring cases that aren't slam dunks to trial.
That's how they get their 99.6% conviction rate.
The 25th Amendment would logically apply.
VP gets an instant promotion.
I'm searching the news for the Democratic faux pas this is supposed to force off the front page, but don't see anything yet.
Maybe Giuliani was taking a dive to distract from McConnell freezing up again.
I could have told them animatronics would only work for a backbencher, but they got overconfident after four years of Mike Pence.
At least he hasn’t been shaking hands with invisible people.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/19/facebook-posts/biden-was-gesturing-towards-his-audience-not-shaki/
Gesturing at the audience, not shaking hands. But the really important thing is that he managed to walk down a ramp with nobody helping him, something Trump has struggled with.
…he (Biden) has also managed to fall up the steps to AF1 several times, fallen of his bike (should he go back to a trike) and was of course tripped by a MAGA sandbag. Did you also know that he almost lost his house, Corvette and cat due to a kitchen fire and that his elder son die in Iraq or Afghanistan or something something.
"backbencher"
Salutations, European. You are welcome to observe the American political process, but you mustn't try to participate. Europeans must be seen and not heard.
from the Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backbencher
Plenty of people had Ghouliani’s number back when he was exploiting 9/11, praising Roe, defaming Ron Paul, and dressing like RuPaul.
He came close to getting a pass for being a “prochoice” Republican. I mean, they didn’t like him preaching law and order in NYC, but seriously, elsewhere in the country there’s a name for New York City Republicans: Democrats.
Defaming Ron Paul?
Ron Paul was a lunatic. His schtik as the most anti-American voice on the right got old years and years ago...
Then Giuliani got less support in the 2008 Republican primaries than a lunatic.
That's so unfair for someone as 100% sane as the abortion-loving neocon Giuliani.
There was nothing sane about Ron. He took all of the Left’s worst foreign policy & mixed it with the right’s worst social policy..
All wrong, all the time…
The fact that Guliani got less primary support should point to the obvious fact that a mayor - even of NYC - has no business running for President without at least being governor or Senator first...
What a surprise a Democrat DC Circuit judge lays the hammer on Rudy.
Wouldn't expect anything different.
That whine might be a bit more plausible if Trump and his cronies had been winning in front of Republican judges, but they haven't. Republican judges have routinely been ruling against Trump and his cronies too. I'm hard pressed to think off hand of any case Trump or his cronies have won in front of any judge anywhere in the country.
No offense but you’re not very well informed on political issues or other issues like biology. So you being hard pressed to think of something doesn’t carry as much weight as you might hope.
It's the DC part that is more revealing of the disgusting partisan bias by the judges moreso than their party label.
The point is, though, that Republican judges have ruled against Trump, Inc. every bit as often as Democrats have. And as an FYI my undergraduate degree is in biology.
And rather than me being hard pressed, perhaps you could tell us about some case somewhere that Trump and/or his cronies actually have won.
My point is though the DC judges are biased against 1776 Americans. Their heavy handedness is obvious to anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand.
That lunatic Trump judge just rejected the request for more prep because she asserted Trump had to have known he was going to he indicted amd they should've been preparing for the case a year ago before the indictment
Was your undergrad in alien biology? Because how in the world could you believe human biological sex was on a spectrum?
Maybe that's because the legal theories put forth by "1776 Americans" tend to be complete and total nonsense.
And not that it's relevant to this discussion, but do you even know what the arguments are for biological sex being on a spectrum? Have you reviewed the data that supports it? Or did you just conclude, without looking at it, that your ignorance is just as good as the work of people who study it for a living?
What nonsense legal theory do you think it is for a legal team to get an indictment then prepare a defense? Instead of spending a year in preparation for some future indictment?
There is zero data that demonstrates biological sex isn't binary.
I am confident Rudolph the Red-Nosed Lawyer* is grateful for your support.
* pending disbarment and incarceration
I feel so sorry for you being so oppressed. Just imagine if you were a black BIPOC transgender cripple instead of just a retard? You'd be the top of the oppression Olympics! It would be your greatest achievement!
Do you have a link to the actual ruling?
And when you say there is zero data, you’ve undertaken to prove a negative. So go ahead. Prove it. Prove there is zero data.
The two primary problems with your whole "proving a negative" objection are 1) it doesn't scale well, and 2) it doesn't need to, for the purposes of public policy.
But he undertook to prove the negative.
Krycheck, you insinuated you had data at hand, I rejected that insinuation.
If you really had data at hand, all you had to do to refute me was present one single datum.
That's it. Yet you got all hysterical.
It’s not hysterical to point out that by making the flat statement that there is zero data you have both indicated an unwillingness to look at data and also undertaken to prove the negative. Had you asked to see data I would have been happy to point you in the right direction. But when you start out, without even looking at any data, by making the bold claim that there isn’t any, that tells me your mind is made up.
https://twitter.com/julie_kelly2/status/1696336104062935204
I never said it was a ruling.
I’m going to need a bit more than someone’s opinion on Twitter.
But suppose you are accurately reporting what the judge said. Does it occur to you that maybe the judge understands that the longer this drags on, the worse it is for the country, and the country is better off getting this over and done with? Which is not an unreasonable position to take, even if it puts pressure on the defense.
The transcripts of the court aren’t good enough for you?
lol wow
And that's a pretty sick viewpoint you have that the judge should decide what's "good for country" and then decide which rights the defendent has based upon her political opinion.
How vile and evil you people are. Absolutely demented
Unless I missed something the Twitter comment appended a single paragraph of the transcript and no, that’s not good enough.
And yes, public policy gets factored into court decisions all the time. What’s the argument that dragging this circus out for two years will be a good thing?
Democrats deeply despise the Electoral College because it gives a voice to those they in turn deeply despise. If these ahistorical bigots had their way, Los Angeles, New York, and Chicago would choose the president every four years.
Get bent.
I don't have enough interest to figure out whether the criminal case(s) imposed burdens on him that would have made discovery dangerous.
However, it's hard to see how he didn't first make a motion to stay, and then declare bankruptcy to achieve the stay if the motion wasn't granted. Once the Dominion defamation lawsuit against Fox got going, it should not have been difficult to predict where all of this would end up for him.
If he had filed for bankruptcy — and assuming it wasn't entirely frivolous — he'd have had to disclose his assets, and that's precisely what he was trying to avoid doing here.
Bankruptcy won’t help him. It would help if he was being sued for failure to pay his debts, but since it’s defamation… He’s SOL.
Defamation judgements aren’t dischargeable, as they involve willful & malicious conduct unrelated to an attempt to collect a dischargeable debt.
It's more the Alex Jones dance....
Can't win the case, so now it's on to trying to hide assets from the plaintiffs.
Then move to a democracy instead of spending your lives perpetually agitated that a republic ain't it.
“The problem isn’t giving people in low population states a voice, it’s with giving them an *outsized* one.”
They need enough of a voice that presidential candidates must try to win their support. How much do you think the current “outsized” voice can be reduced by before it doesn’t matter? The objections I have read (which I won’t assign to you until you make them) is that a vote *anywhere* counts “more” than a vote anywhere else; unless every vote counts the exact same the situation is unacceptable. So yeah, the United Cities of LA, New York, and Chicago, as I said.
There are 330 million people in the U.S. Roughly 155 million voted in 2020. Even if by NY/LA/Chicago you mean to include the metropolitan areas rather than just the cities themselves, that would only be about 40 million.
(And of course those cities do not vote as a block; even if they voted 75% for Democrats, that would only be a 20 million net vote for Democrats.)
Democracy is Greek for republic, and republic is Latin for democracy.
Kleppe, to be precise, our Founders gave us a unique-for-the-time form of a republic—a constitutional federated representative democracy. But if you want to use one word, either Republic or Democracy will work, because we are both.
It’s sad that Republic, not Democracy! is now primarily used as little more than a sneering attack of hard-right echo chamber types, replying to someone’s innocent and mostly accurate passing reference to the USA as a democracy.
...because that's the way the Federal government was established with the ratification of the Constitution. That same Constitution provided a means to make amendments to it, so of you don't like the current system move to amend it as provided by the supreme law of the land.
As I said before, Democrats despise the Electoral College because it gives disfavored people a chance to affect their own destinies.
"One person one vote" has always been a siren song. The reality is either votes in e.g. Wyoming weigh slightly heavier than those in e.g. California but all "count", or votes in Wyoming and California are treated the same and Wyoming will never ever count, for anything, ever. Which is your stated goal.
And yet we all know the difference between a democracy and a republic.
How do you figure?
(To be clear, I agree with Prof. Volokh that people who insist on a technical distinction in the American context are at best being silly; my question is purely on your linguistic point.)
No, we all don’t. You’re assuming everyone shares your opinion, and not everyone does.
Striking balance between states of different population sizes was a fundamental consideration in the drafting of the Constitution.
The entire reason that the Senate has 2 per state, and the House was (originally) 1 rep per 30,000 was to balance the relative political power of the states.
The Electoral College, in and of itself, is an anti-extremism measure & a net-positive – ensuring that the least politically extreme states are the ones who actually pick the President.
Wyoming has, at the end of the day, the same say as California – which is about zero: As single-party-rule states they never actually influence a presidential election.
Meanwhile the states with the most middle-of-the-road populations (almost all of them in the Midwest) are the ones that actually push elections one way or another.
The problem we have, is that *candidate selection* doesn't use any of these rules - and thus the actual nominees are often far more extreme (or awful people, or both) than the voters would like (See: 2016).
Greek:
Demos - people
kratika - rule
Latin:
res - thing
publica - people
(in other words, the people's thing).
So, whether it's the people rule or the people's thing, the point is that the people are the ones in charge.
Might have something to do with the names of the two major US political parties...
Yes! When that started popping up more than a decade ago, I wrote this. As you observe, it still seems the most likely root of the practice.