The Volokh Conspiracy
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Clearing up Common Misconceptions About the Charges Against Trump
Recent articles by Lawfare and Walter Olson perform a valuable service on this front.

Lawfare and my Cato Institute colleague Walter Olson have recently posted valuable articles explaining the criminal charges filed against Trump for his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, and clearing up some common misconceptions about them.
The Lawfare article, coauthored by six experts, systematically goes over the legal issues involved in all four counts against Trump. In the process, they clear up some notable misunderstandings, particularly claims - advanced by the editors of National Review and conservative legal commentator Andrew McCarthy - that the definition of "fraud" under federal law isn't broad enough to cover Trump's actions. While that may be true under the federal wire fraud statute and some other laws, it is not true under the statutes whose violation Trump is actually charged with.
For example, 18 U.S.C. § 371 makes it illegal for two more people to "conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose." As the Lawfare article explains,the Supreme Court has long interpreted this as going beyond financial fraud, to include any actions that "interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft, or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest."
Lawfare also covers 18 U.S.C. § 241, the Reconstruction-era law which makes it a criminal offense for "two or more persons [to] conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person … in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States…" National Review is wrong to suggest that this law only criminalizes "violent intimidation and forcible attacks against blacks attempting to exercise their right to vote." As Lawfare notes, longstanding Supreme Court precedent has enabled prosecutors to use Section 241 to "prosecute a range of election interference schemes, including those aimed at preventing individuals from casting votes as well as those seeking to deprive cast votes of their lawful effect." Trump's efforts to substitute fake electors for the real ones, pressure state officials to falsify vote counts, and compel Vice President Mike Pence to illegally block certification of the electoral vote all qualify under this rubric.
For his part, Walter Olson has a helpful critique of claims that prosecuting Trump on these charges violates the First Amendment:
Nothing in the charges filed Wednesday seeks to punish the former president for speech or advocacy as such. While the indictment does recite many things Trump said and calls them false, it identifies each such statement as being part of an overall course of conduct satisfying the elements of a crime under one of four federal statutes: conspiracy to defraud the United States, 18 U.S.C. section 371; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, 18 U.S.C. section 1512(k); obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, 18 U.S.C. section 1512(c); and conspiracy to deprive persons of protected rights, 18 U.S.C. section 241.
It is long established and ordinarily uncontroversial that speech can lose the protection of the First Amendment if, for example, it seeks to intimidate a public official into shirking a legal duty, or if it consists of the submission of forged documents to a government agency, or if it solicits or facilitates crime generally (this past term's Supreme Court decision in United States v. Hansen, criticized by colleague Thomas Berry on a different issue, reiterated that last simple truism). Speech that is part of a conspiracy to accomplish those things may be unprotected as well.
Walter also explains why this prosecution is fundamentally different from efforts by some on the political left to criminalize political "misinformation," which he (and I) have long opposed. In addition, he goes over several other issues involved in the prosecution, including covering some of the same ground as Lawfare.
In addition, he has some useful commentary on the issue of whether Trump must be acquitted because he genuinely believed the election was stolen from him. I discussed that issue in some detail in my own previous post about the indictment. As noted there, and more fully described by Orin Kerr, there is in fact extensive evidence that Trump knew he had lost. Additional evidence on that point comes from his Attorney General, William Barr, who discussed the election with Trump extensively at the time, and recalls that "he knew well he lost the election."
Furthermore, it's far from clear that proving Trump knew this is essential to get a conviction conviction. Even if Trump genuinely thought he won, it was still illegal for him to try to substitute fake electors for the real ones, and to pressure Pence into trying to block the electoral vote count despite lacking any legal authority to do so. I made some additional points on this issue here.
The pieces by Lawfare and Walter Olson won't be the last word on the debate over this indictment. But they do advance the discussion by going over key issues in detail, and refuting some common misconceptions.
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Probably a little too willful to be mere "misconceptions".
These actions by Jack Smith and Merrick Garland are nothing more than an attempt to keep President Trump off the ballot in 2024. They are interfering in an election, and yes, Trump won in 2020; These prosecutorial failures are scared that when President Trump is put back in the WH, they will lose their playground in DC. Malice is of the attorneys pushing this LawFare. The US would be better off if lawyers were held accountable, not the citizens who are paying their salaries and expressing their right to freedom of speech.
And yes, Elvis lives, and yes, the earth is flat.
"and yes, Trump won in 2020"
What planet do you live on. The man is a LOSER.
No, he did not win.
Yes, he may have done illegal stuff.
Yes, he is being prosecuted as a political enemy.
Various things can be simultaneously true.
See also Bill Clinton's impeachment and the Republican vigor in going after him in an open ended fashion.
One other truism, decade after decade: you're all worthless people flopping sides to get your opponents. A good constituion could not be constructed nowadays.
It could also be simultaneously true he is being prosecuted as a partisan political enemy and an enemy of democracy.
Don, does it bother you that people born in the 1800s voted in the 2020 election? That in one case, someone old enough to have fought in the Civil War voted in the 2020 election?
Or that people were voting from "paper addresses" -- vacant lots where houses were authorized to be built but never were?
Or any number of the other things that were thrown out of court on standing and other technicalities? Having a case thrown out is a victory but doesn't mean that you were right....
Yo all of that shit got debunked a long time ago.
-A 2017 report about duplicate voting from the Government Accountability Institute: “It is important to note that some state registration systems indicate a missing date of birth by adopting filler dates, such as 01/01/1900, 01/01/1850, or 01/01/1800,”
-Liz Harris, a failed GOP candidate for state legislature, issued a document that purported to show "ghost votes" were cast from properties that were unoccupied. The cover of the report — which listed a total of two properties to support its extrapolated claim that there were more than 100,000 such votes – illustrated this by way of showing a barren lot.
But that photo was deceptive, only showing one corner of the property. On another corner sits a "single-family home," built in 2005, according to the Maricopa County Assessor's Office, led by Republican Eddie Cook.
Further, the Maricopa County Recorder's Office, led by Republican Stephen Richer, determined that four registered voters live at that home, "three of whom voted by mail" in the 2020 election, according to Friday's statement.
A 2017 report debunks fraud committed in 2020?
Yes it does, since it explains the nonsense about people born in the 1800s.
Jackarse Smith and Meritless Garland should be tried for sedition.
It's the only thing that's going to put an end to this crap.
Which elements of the crime of sedition do their actions satisfy?
Any portion of Trump's four DC charges, take your pick.
Remember that precedent doesn't apply here -- it doesn't to the persecution of Trump and it also shouldn't apply to the persecution of these two schmucks. It's all political now....
Precedent does apply.
Your Civil War 2/American Revolution 2 wankery is not coming from someone who thinks they have the better argument.
Dr. Ed 2, can you even identify the elements of the crime of sedition?
"These actions by Jack Smith and Merrick Garland are nothing more than an attempt to keep President Trump off the ballot in 2024."
Quite the opposite. The left is trying to goad the GOP into nominating Trump in 2024. They are not afraid of him; they WANT to run against him. Every time they poke him, every time they provoke him, his fan base rallies to him and makes him stronger in the GOP primaries.
The great part about conspiracy theories is that someone doing X can be said to have Agenda Y and Agenda Anti-Y. Since there's no logic or evidence behind any of it, anything proves anything.
These are political prosecutions that should be decided at the ballot box, not in a courtroom.
The whole point of these charges is that he attempted to subvert the will of the voters after they'd already cast their ballots. You can't rely on the ballot box as the fix for trying to alter the outcome of elections since if one is successful in these sorts of crimes the result of the balloting becomes irrelevant.
Can you think of any other time when criminal guilt or innocence of a person was put to a public vote? Of course not. Trump needs to go though the same legal system that everyone else does.
The British said the same thing when they went out to Lexington & Concord in 1775. How'd that turn out???
ritish said the same thing when they went out to
Are you having a stroke?
No, my radio repeater did. Thank you for your concern, though.
Don't feed the troll.
Republicans, January 2021: We shouldn't convict Trump in impeachment 2 because he has left office; we should leave it to the criminal justice system.
Republicans, August 2023: The criminal justice system can't prosecute Trump.
Republican State Legislators, January 2025: We can't believe our state would vote Biden so we're going to send Trump Electors instead.
Trying to steal an election shouldn't be decided at the ballot box. It's a high crime against democracy and should have resulted in impeachment, conviction and disqualification for office.
No, it should be a capital offence.
The uniparty is making the same mistakes that the British did in the 1770s. ALL the same mistakes, including the political corruption of the military and ignoring the veterans of the past war.
Those who fail to learn from history...
There is no doubt this is preferred by the Trump team. Deciding this in public rather than in a courtroom where rules apply. The question of the integrity of the 2020 election has been primarily argued in public. This allows Trump and his minions to make statements without having to be question about the statements. Trump will offer opinions on the on the case in public, but not in a court of law where he would then have to stand for cross examination.
The ballot box is for deciding who will be President, not whether a candidate is guilty of a crime, that is for a jury.
Prosecuting Trump reflects a pathetic lack of civic understanding. Before Vietnam, the impeachment of Andrew Johnson was taught, by liberals, as a great mistake that should never be repeated. The reasons are obvious, I hope. But that mistake has now been constantly repeated. As a result the effectiveness of the executive and the will of the people have been frustrated. As if there is no downside to destroying the sense that we all have one president at a time, and certain amount of unity is needed for the national good.
The future will look down on us for our lack of political imagination and understanding.
The question of Trump's guilt is irrelevant. Maybe his crimes were worse than some other president's, maybe they weren't. But he embodied the presidency and is running for that office again. The question of mature, intelligent judgement, the judgement that puts the nation first and personal biases and feelings and sense of moral and intellectual superiority in the background, the judgement that matters to me and the vast majority of citizens, is this: What is the emergency that justifies this action? Why should the process of politics and governance and the already seriously depleted attention of citizens be yoked to this process?
I will restate it: What is the emergency that calls for this action? And, let's face it, this is just another in a long string of farcical, dishonest, self-serving, even perhaps technically criminal actions taken because the emergency was that Trump won an election. Or might do so again.
As a conservative, as a libertarian, as a Christian, as a student of history, I would be very glad if Trump disappeared. But we are not a banana republic, yet. And this kind of prosecution squanders the lessons of history which helped create our civic inheritance.
'The question of Trump’s guilt is irrelevant.'
This is probably what counts as the 'moderate' right-wing position.
A decade ago, I was saying the same thing about Obama's actual birthplace -- I have no doubt that it was Kenya, but for the greater good of the country, we should ignore that. We [had] to accept the Hawaii documentation, even if likely fabricated, because the State of Hawaii was saying it was legitimate.
And we had to do this for the greater good of the country.
You being a bigoted a conspiracy theorist doesn't really have much bearing on how other people should act.
I'm not sure that bragging that you were just as stupid and mentally ill a decade ago as you are now is really a good way to make your case.
Let me put it simply and straightforwardly, because that's how Trumpkins apparently like things to be said: anybody who thinks Obama was born in Kenya is not fit to manage his own affairs, and should be institutionalized for his own safety.
So Hillary Clinton and all of her buddies? That's where the Kenya thing started
It did not. Neither Hillary nor any of her 'buddies' ever said one word about it.
'I have no doubt that it was Kenya but for the greater good of the country, we should ignore that'
Believe something fake, claim it's being ignored for convienience, act like it's all the sacrifice you're willing to make.
January 6 is the emergency.
It's not sufficient to point out that it was an unsuccessful coup. It was an illegal coup attempt and the United States needs to make a clear statement that we won't just sweep coups under the rug if we want politicians to respect the rule of law in the future.
A bunch of unarmed people wandering around taking selfies is a coup attempt nowadays?!? It wasn't like Trump told anyone to break into the capital anyway so I don't see how that could ever stick in court.
Haven't you ever heard of a bloodless coup? Trump's coup was more violent than many successful ones.
Anyway, the violence isn't the point. Smith didn't even charge him for inciting an insurrection.
The coup's the thing.
A coup? Like the military saying they lied to trump in order to keep troops in a country that we haven't declared war with?
Or a coup like more the 50 Intel officers declaring known accurate information is Russian disinfo in order to help the dems (their words not mine)
It's always confession by projection with you lefties
1) That would not in fact be a coup.
2) That did not in fact happen.
This is like if a guy allegedly beat his wife, and then went around publicly saying that his wife deserved to be beaten, then saying, maybe we should save the trial until after he's had a chance to beat his wife again.
I think Trump fans are just aware that Trump has brought historical shame upon their party, but there's a "noone knows what really happened" sense that allows them an out. A trial creates incontrovertible evidence that the other side was right and they were wrong and it really scares them, because then it isn't a political issue any more. They were just duped.
This is how Communists came to power. Cheered on by idiots.
In this case, cheered on by law professor who calls himself a Libertarian, and who wants to jail political enemies for what they say.
We're sorry you completely missed Professor Somin's. There's no shame in admitting that it was over your head -- maybe he'll prepare a dumbed-down version for you.
It's more how the American Revolution happened.
It's how the Russian AND the American Revolutions happened! Truly, the intellectual project of the modern right is to utterly destroy all factual and moral distinctions between events and deeds and create One Great Equivalence (False).
No Nige, the Russian Revolution was very different.
Well duh.
Count 1 of the indictment specifically charges Trump with conspiracy "to defraud the United States" in paragraph 6. It does not charge conspiracy to commit a crime. Count 2 charges conspiracy to commit the crime of obstruction.
Donald Trump's best hope is for at least one juror to buy into nullification.
The walls are closing in -- this time for sure, Rocky!
“Donald Trump’s best hope is for at least one juror to buy into nullification.” Odds of that in DC are about as good as the odds of winning the Mega Millions. However, since everyone here is speculating, if that were to occur what would be the chances of the government seeking to retry?
11:1, in favor of conviction? Close to a 100% chance he's retried.
1:11, in favor of acquittal? 100% chance it's not retried.
10:2, or 2:10? IMO, odds drop down to 90%.
And if Trump gets 3+ jurors, I think there's very little chance of a retrial.
(On some level, I'd prefer a 12:0 verdict for acquittal rather than an 11:1 hung jury leaning towards conviction. I just think the country would be best served by a definitive verdict, regardless of what that verdict ends up being. I suspect that if the jury hung 11:1 for acquittal, there would be some morons on the liberal side saying, "This doesn't at all suggest Trump is innocent." And if it were 11:1 for conviction, similar morons on the conservative side, saying, "This doesn't even suggest that Trump is guilty.")
Um, dude, if it's 12:0 for conviction, morons on the conservative¹ side will make that argument. We'll hear that black people can't be allowed to judge Trump, that Democrats can't be allowed to judge Trump, that people in DC can't be allowed to judge Trump — that only a jury of 12 red-MAGA-baseball-cap-wearing people, presided over by a judge appointed by Trump, being prosecuted by one of Trump's lawyers, can possibly be relied upon.
¹MAGA aren't really conservative, though.
'We’ll hear'
Are we not already hearing this? True, we'll hear it in the future, too, only more so.
I seem to remember issues with all-White juries convicting Black folk.
Back to the re-education camp you go.
That should work. A considerable percentage of the population love him, and that love is unconditional. Haven't worked out the math, but the chances of getting at least one juror that unconditionally loves him is probably pretty decent.
Not in DC, where he only got about 5% of the vote. It's about 50-50 you'd randomly get a jury with nobody who voted for Trump, and even a slight effort at weeding out Republicans would essentially guarantee it.
Yet again, voting or not voting for Trump is not a sign you can’t be an impartial juror.
Really? Trump voters are known for ignoring facts that they don't like. The comments on this page are a clear example.
Don't take Internet political commenters as in any way a representative sample of the general population.
No one believes Trump is going to get anything but convicted in DC, not guilty, not even you.
Stop pretending.
Team Trump is free to seek transfer to another federal district pursuant to Fed.R.Crim.P. 21(a): "Upon the defendant's motion, the court must transfer the proceeding against that defendant to another district if the court is satisfied that so great a prejudice against the defendant exists in the transferring district that the defendant cannot obtain a fair and impartial trial there." Any such endeavor, though, faces an uphill fight.
The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals has expressly rejected a claim that the District of Columbia's voting record in past presidential elections is at all pertinent to venue. United States v. Haldeman, 559 F.2d 31, 64 n.43 (D.C. Cir. 1976) (en banc). "A fundamental premise of our jurisprudential system is that, save in the most extraordinary circumstances, an impartial jury expectably may be convened anywhere in the Nation. Another is that the capability of doing so is always to be presumed until the contrary appears." Id., at 135-36.
not guilty, I think no matter what the trial outcome, this will eventually land at SCOTUS. It has to.
On what basis C_XY?
And by then the election will have passed.
Too many conflicting issues: political speech, the limits of executive and judicial power. It is not an 'open and shut' case; none of them are.
Practically speaking; yes, the election will have passed.
If Trump is convicted and nevertheless elected president, he will likely pardon himself. I agree that that could wind up before SCOTUS, although I am not sure who would have both standing to litigate and the will to do so. (Recall the unsuccessful attempts to litigate whether President Obama is a natural born citizen.) The Department of Justice would have standing to challenge a self-pardon, but Trump would in all likelihood appoint an Attorney General who would shut down any effort to do so.
The indictment appears to be drafted such that the gravamen of the charged offenses is not political speech. Speech or writing used as an integral part of conduct in violation of a valid criminal statute is not protected by the First Amendment. Giboney v. Empire Storage & Ice Co., 336 U.S. 490, 498 (1949). "Many long established criminal proscriptions—such as laws against conspiracy, incitement, and solicitation—criminalize speech . . . that is intended to induce or commence illegal activities." Williams v. United States, 553 U.S. 285, 298 (2008). Solicitation of criminal conduct is "categorically excluded from First Amendment protection." Id., at 297.
I don't see how this prosecution implicates the limits of executive and judicial power. "It is settled law that the separation of powers doctrine does not bar every exercise of jurisdiction over the President of the United States." Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731, 753-54 (1982). Surely this extends to the exercise of jurisdiction over a former president.
Under the authority of Art. II, § 2, Congress has vested in the Attorney General the power to conduct the criminal litigation of the United States Government. 28 U.S.C. § 516. United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683, 694 (1974). The Attorney General may appoint officials to detect and prosecute crimes against the United States. 28 U.S.C. § 533(a)(1). An attorney specially appointed by the Attorney General under law, may, when specifically directed by the Attorney General, conduct any kind of legal proceeding, civil or criminal, including grand jury proceedings and proceedings before committing magistrate judges, which United States attorneys are authorized by law to conduct. 28 U.S.C. § 515(a). This includes a Special Counsel appointed by the Attorney General. In re Grand Jury Investigation, 916 F.3d 1047 (D.C. Cir. 2019).
So the Bush v Gore case was a crime? What about the cases filed by the Green party nutcase? Hillary conspired with a foreign national to cause a false FBI investigation.
DeSantis is asking a great question. Why didn't Trump's DOJ indict Hillary????
1. Gore did not pressure state legislators and the VP to change the result of the election. Gore accepted the results.
2. Russia did help Trump in 2016. People in the Trump campaign had contact with Russian agents. Those facts alone demonstrate a national security risk and need to trigger an investigation.
"People in the Trump campaign had contact with Russian agents"
Which people and what agents?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_between_Trump_associates_and_Russian_officials_and_spies?wprov=sfti1
You know you're linking to a WIkipedia article?
One with 185 references.
MollyGodiva : “One with 185 references”
I noticed this in the article : “Members of Trump’s campaign, and later his White House staff, particularly Flynn and Jared Kushner, were in contact with Russian government officials both before and after the November election, including some contacts which they initially did not disclose”
Of course Flynn had pocketed 50K from Putin’s government less than a year before Trump named him National Security Advisor. Everyone knows that. But it’s a little known fact in Mueller’s report that Kushner asked the Russian Ambassador if he (Trump’s son-in-law) could use Russian secure communication lines to talk to Moscow. This was during the transition and Kushner didn’t want his own government to know what was said.
The Russians were astounded by the request and refused.
You realize that was an accusation by an anonymous source back in 2017? And since it hasn't gone anywhere in six years, it's pretty safe to say it was bunk.
The Washington Post reported receiving an anonymous tip about this in December 2016; US intelligence heard it in monitoring the Russian Ambassador's communications with Moscow. It may have been unclear then if it was Russian disinformation (lot of that going on in 2016).
But it was correct: Kushner sitting with General Flynn and the Russian Ambassador (see page 49 in the link):
https://www.dni.gov/files/HPSCI_Transcripts/2020-05-04-Jared_Kushner-MTR_Redacted.pdf
Kushner's security clearance was itself quite the journey: omitting contacts with foreign officials on his original request, later adding them which revealed his pre-election meeting with Russians, upgraded and downgraded, and received permanent clearance only when Trump intervened (which Trump had denied but it came out that John Kelly had documented it in a memo).
I'm not talking about the accusation that he sat with some Russian. I've probably met and sat with dozens of Russians I didn't even know about. I'm talking about the accusations that they were meeting with spies, or doing something nefarious, which all turned out to be hogwash.
And btw, I used to process security clearances. It's common for someone who travels a lot to not list everyone right off the bat, or even know who meets the criteria (which can be confusing even to pros). There is no such thing as "upgrading or downgrading" a clearance btw. It's either granted or not.
That Kushner didn't know that the Ambassador he was asking to set up communications with the Russian government was actually a Russian is certainly a unique take.
You realize that basically all those references are about accused, unproven or tentative "links". And not even spies. For example, how Paxum bank, which is partially owned by a Russian, approved a loan to a subsidiary group in the Trump corporation? If those are "links" then everyone has some link to Russia somewhere.
Weren't some of those the same sources planted by the FBI then used to spy on his campaign?
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Of course they were, just like Crossfire Hurricane and the 4 illegal FISA warrants, all primarily based on the already discredited Steele Dossier.
There were not "4 illegal FISA warrants," and of course the FISA warrants were for Carter Page, not the Trump campaign.
You are such a douche.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Because the important thing it’s the countless well documented instances of contact between people in the Trump campaign and Russia.
The important thing is this particular bundle of well documented facts is congregated on Wikipedia.
Mr. Bumble: “Which people and what agents?”
One was Manafort, Trump’s campaign manager, who had secret meetings with someone listed as a Russian spy by U.S, Intelligence agencies at the time. This was covered both in Mueller’s report and the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 election.
As for that report, this is a summary of its findings:
“The Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday reaffirmed its support for the U.S. intelligence community’s conclusion that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election with the goal of putting Donald Trump in the Oval Office. Tuesday’s bipartisan report, from a panel chaired by North Carolina Republican Richard Burr, undercuts Trump’s years of efforts to portray allegations of Kremlin assistance to his campaign as a “hoax,” driven by Democrats and a “deep state” embedded within the government bureaucracy.
The intelligence community’s initial January 2017 assessment of Moscow’s influence campaign included “specific intelligence reporting to support the assessment that [Russian President Vladimir] Putin and the Russian government demonstrated a preference for candidate Trump,” the committee’s report says. The panel also found “specific intelligence” to support the conclusion that Putin “approved and directed aspects” of the Kremlin’s interference efforts.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/senate-intel-report-confirms-russia-aimed-to-help-trump-in-2016-198171
Of course the Inspector General of the Justice Department, Michael Horowitz, had already determined an investigation into Trump-Russian ties was warranted after a low-level campaign aide got drunk and bragged he knew the Russians would leak dirt on Clinton. This conclusion was affirmed by Durham, who only suggested it should have been a partial investigation, not full.
The appointment of a Special Counsel was necessary after Trump fired the FBI head and then boasted about it to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov : “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”
God alone knows where right-winger clowns find a “Russian Hoax” in all of this. It’s like they’re living on another planet….
Like most Democrats, you confuse two issues. The "hoax" isn't that Russia tried to interfere with the election (although the idea that the less than 2 million spent by Russia had any impact against the over $1.4 billion spent by the Clinton campaign is ludicrous). The hoax was the allegations that Trump was colluding with Russia and/or working as a Russian agent. Most of that info came from the discredited Steele dossier.
BTW, in regard to Paul Manafort. He was only campaign manager for less than two months, and one of his contacts was allegedly a Russian agent, not proven. You seem to be drawing from the Steele dossier for his info too.
1. There was no evidence of Trump collusion found, that does not mean that it did not happen. He was not exonerated.
2. There was enough suspicion to open an investigation. It was not a "hoax" at all. It was a serious issue that had to be looked into.
"that does not mean that it did not happen. "
Of course you believe whatever your politics forces you to believe.
It was not the job of Mr Mueller to exonerate anyone, only to serch for evidence and if it was found to prosecute.
No - the primary justification for the Crossfire Hurricane investigation was the Steele Dossier. By the time that they used it in the fall of 2016 as the basis of the first Carter Page FISA application, the FBI knew that it had been funded by the Clinton campaign and DNC, that major portions were false, that Steele was unreliable, and that the portions from his primary subsource had been fabricated in a Georgetown bar over drinks. They fired Steele as a source, but he found another route into the FBI, through high ranking DOJ official Bruce Orr, whose wife (Nellie) worked for the same firm as Steele did (also funded by the Clinton campaign and DNC), and may have drafted several of the Steele dossiers (based on writing samples - she is a PhD academic, and he an ex spy). It should also be noted that several of Steele’s claims appear to have come from illegal FBI contractor access to FISA databases.
The important thing to keep in mind here is that the FBI knew all this, by fall of 2016, because they had already fired Steele as a source. It would take most of the rest of four years, thanks to several IG investigations, and at least three Special Prosecutor investigations (including the highly biased Mueller investigation) for the rest of us to find out what was known by FBI’s Counterintelligence Division in early fall of 2016.
Didn’t poor old whatsisname, guy with the beard, investigate all this for years and ended up with nothing, proving absolutely none of this shit. The Mueller report is biased because it actually found stuff out.
100% false. Crossfire Hurricane was opened before anyone had ever heard of the Steele Dossier. It was opened because George Papadopoulos bragged to the Australian ambassador that the Russians had told him they had Hillary's emails.
Douche.
(1) There are plenty of Right-wingers who claim Russian inference is also a hoax. Address your complaint to them.
(2) There were plenty of contacts between the Russians and Trump associates which you seem ready to ignore – even after you give Manafort’s case some kind of papal-like dispensation. After all, you have Trump’s son saying (in writing) that he’d welcome secret Russian help for daddy’s campaign. And you had Trump conducting secret business negotiations with Kremlin leaders throughout the 2016 campaign – with Trump Org officials discussing what kind of bribe to offer Putin to sweeten the deal. Needless to say, Trump was asked direct questions on his Russian business ties during the campaign and lied to the American people. And Roger Stones role as intermediary to the Russians was proven both by Mueller and the Senate Intelligence Committee.
3. What discredited Steele Report? He had the Russians working to elect Trump and he was right. He had Manafort meeting with spies and he was right. He had Cohen meeting secretly with the Russians and was right about the meetings (if not the cause). Even his sex tape existed. Mueller’s report established it was a fake by Russian criminal elements that Trump asked Cohen to suppress. Cohen used a Russian-American businessman named Giorgi Rtskhiladze as intermediary who reported back, ‘Stopped flow of tapes from Russia but not sure if there’s anything else. Just so you know …. ‘ Both men testified about the tape before Mueller’s grand jury. As raw intelligence goes, Steele had a pretty good batting average.
4. So there were a lot of ties between Trump associates and Russian interest which you seem ready to ignore. And more and more of these ties were uncovered during the investigations by Mueller and Senate Intelligence Committee. So when does you “Hoax” talk just become empty bullshit?
5. And here’s one other thing too: The unofficial end of Mueller’s investigation was on 24 June 2019, when he testified before the House Intelligence Committee. In drab legalese, he said his report did not address ‘collusion,’ which is not a legal term. Rather, it focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. and it was not. The larger question whether Trump sought assistance from a foreign country to aid his campaign was avoided.
The very next day, 25 June 2019, Donald Trump tried to strong-arm assistance from a foreign country to aid his campaign. This was the infamous phone call to Zelensky and not even close to being subtle. It’s like the criminal blessed by a not-guilty verdict who has in a new caper going three steps out the courthouse.
John Rohan : “BTW, in regard to Paul Manafort. He was only campaign manager for less than two months, and one of his contacts was allegedly a Russian agent, not proven. You seem to be drawing from the Steele dossier for his info too.”
No. I’m giving the conclusion of the Bob Barr (R, NC)–led Senate Intelligence Committee. Here’s their conclusions :
“Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign chairman Paul Manafort worked closely with a Russian intelligence officer who may have been involved in the hack and release of Democratic emails during the election, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded in a bipartisan report released Tuesday.”
“The committee also raised the possibility that Manafort was personally connected to the “hack-and-leak operations” that targeted Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. The committee states that “some evidence suggests Kilimnik may be connected” to the effort, which was helmed by Russia’s GRU, its main military-intelligence directorate”
“Kilimnik was in sustained contact with Manafort before, during, and after the GRU cyber and influence operations, but the committee did not obtain reliable, direct evidence that Kilimnik and Manafort discussed the GRU hack-and-leak operation,” the report states”
That’s my source, What’s yours?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/18/manafort-worked-with-russian-intel-officer-who-may-have-been-involved-in-dnc-hack-senate-panel-says-397597
Bob Barr is a former Republican congressman. You mean Richard Burr.
I'm forever getting my Barrs confused...
Bill Barr: former Bush Sr. AG who was a executive branch maximalist and who openly campaigned for the Trump AG job so that he could advance that agenda; carried water for Trump for a couple of years, wouldn't go along with the Trump coup attempt, but only suddenly recently decided Trump is unfit.
Bob Barr: Contract with America Congressman and drug warrior who got religion and became libertarian and ran for president as that party's nominee, and after his campaign went nowhere decided he was just a Republican after all.
Richard Burr: non-MAGA Republican who kept his head down and supported Trump for four years, but did vote to convict in impeachment #2.
Don't forget about Perry Mason.
You realize everything in your article is guesswork and opinion, right? No one has shown any evidence of that, and Manafort wasn't charged nor convicted of spying for Russia. He was convicted of financial crimes that occurred years before Trump was even a candidate.
Wrong.
“Kilimnik was in sustained contact with Manafort before, during, and after the GRU cyber and influence operations..."
That's a fact backed up by evidence. It's Trump's campaign "meeting with Russian spies" as you put it.
Muller's report is full of evidence of Trump's campaign colluding with Russia. Muller's conclusion was that collusion isn't illegal, and the evidence wasn't sufficient to prove a conspiracy, which is.
I would phrase that a bit more narrowly. Mueller's position was that there is no specific crime called "collusion," and therefore he wasn't even going to attempt to assess whether it occurred.
"Gore did not pressure state legislators and the VP to change the result of the election. Gore accepted the results."
Oh, come on, he didn't pressure the state legislators because he had the state supreme court helping him with that.
And he only accepted the results after losing at the federal Supreme court.
Gore controlled the Florida Supreme Court?
He didn't do crimes, but for reasons, therefore it's the same.
Setting aside that the Florida Supreme Court did not work for Gore, the Florida Supreme Court ordered recounts; it did not order the state to declare that Gore was the winner.
The FL Supreme Ct ordered Selective recounts of only the three big Dem majority counties that had applied nonstandard, highly creative, counting methods (like guessing based on hanging chads). The US Supreme Court essentially said that recounting only those counties violated Equal Protection, and all counties, or none, would have to be recounted.
Florida law did not provide for statewide recounts. It provided that any challenges to the results had to be raised on a county by county basis. Gore only challenged the results in certain counties, so that's what the Florida Supreme Court addressed.
Pressuring state legislators is fully protected by the First Amendment.
You need something like bribery or perjury or extortion before you go outside the bounds of "petitioning the government for the redress of grievances".
Fraud is outside the bounds.
In the Thursday Open Thread, I did give an example of a convicted murderer applying for a concealed carry permit. Something like bribery or perjury would have to be done for that to be a punishable act.
If there were a law that proscribed lying on the application because it is fraud (rather than perjury), the lying is also not protected speech.
You’re just wrong about that Michael. You better stop saying that… and definitely stop lying on government forms.
Where did you guys get the idea that freedom of speech means freedom to commit fraud? Checking the “No” box after “Have you ever been convicted of a felony?” isn’t protected by the First Amendment.
Where’s Mr. Bumble to call you a douche?
You're misinterpreting M.E.'s statement. What he's saying is that, literally, there's no crime "Ineligible person applying for a permit." The crime is lying on the form (or in some way making an effort to obtain the form illicitly, such as by bribery). But if you go to buy a gun and you honestly check off all the reasons why you're not eligible to buy it, you haven't done anything wrong.
Oh. So it's just a totally inappropriate analogy, is what you're saying?
"Gore accepted the results."
Only after a fashion, after refusing a recount of the entire state.
Gore lied to defraud the federal government of the Bush elector votes from Florida. This is the Smith standard. It is a double edged sword.
What particular lie(s) do you claim that Gore told? Please be specific.
As usual, check your facts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida
At least for the moment, you've stopped trying to suck off Putin.
Only after what fashion? That sounds like the normal fashion to me.
I mean, Ockham's Razor would suggest the answer: because there was nothing to indict her for.
Gore lied to defraud the federal government of the Bush elector votes from Florida. This is the Smith standard. It is a double edged sword.
Be more of a lawyer and less of a partisan tool. Read the indictment, and try and apply the facts of 2000 to the law as specified in the indictment.
I know you don't wanna because false equivalence is the GOP's go-to defense these days, but try it and see where you come up.
Lying is not the same as a conspiracy to defraud. But I'm still interested to know, what lie do you think Gore told?
Somin's argument is that the feds have previously prosecuted innocent people. And people people for fraud even if they never defrauded anyone. Yet another anti-American opinion from Somin. He calls himself Libertarian, but no real Libertarian would be wanting to jail someone for something that no one understands as a crime, except for Trump-hating law professors.
Still having trouble keeping up with the class, I see. Maybe we can arrange for a remedial reading comprehension session for you.
I'm mildly curious: I note that Lawfare publishes stuff from The Bulwark, a noted NeverTrump site, which made me curious as to whether the site, (Which at least claims to be non-partisan) was objective, or just a bunch of Trump haters. So I looked up what they'd published in the 2016-2017 timeframe, before anybody had any excuse for being hostile to Trump on a legal level.
I found some interesting links, like, "If you care about national security, don't vote Trump".
I won't say my search was exhaustive, but every last article I could find by them on Trump was hostile, starting long before you'd have any basis for saying he'd broken a law as President.
So, no, I don't think they're particularly objective.
It is totally possible to be objective and yet be strongly anti-Trump.
It is true that many political opinions are based on partisanship rather than some sort of objective analysis, but not all.
Please bear in mind that, as a Trump cultist, you cannot imagine anyone being rationally opposed to your idol.
But they are.
"It is totally possible to be objective and yet be strongly anti-Trump."
Sure, though it's not the smartest bet. And it's possible to be objective and yet have been strongly pro-Trump. Either could happen, depending on your ideological priors. What's not going to happen is for an organization to be objective if everybody in it shares the same ideological priors. That sort of thing doesn't happen by accident, it happens as a result of ideological bias.
'And it’s possible to be objective and yet have been strongly pro-Trump.'
Anything's possible, in theory.
'That sort of thing doesn’t happen by accident'
Or Trump's just incredibly divisive.
Trump is absolutely divisive, which means he divides people, which means some people end up on each side.
If you've got an organization where everybody is on the same side, it's because they're partisan.
Sure, if you take the divide as partisan rather than principled. Since support of Trump can only be partisan, because the principles involved are fucking loo-la and we don't want to acknowledge that, then so must the opposition.
Exactly. It's not at all surprising that the patriotic and smart people at The Bulwark were all objectively anti-Trump.
The word "lawfare" means using the courts to conduct warfare. No, they are not objective, and do not even believe in the rule of law. They want to use the law for their political side to win.
"Lawfare
Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to damage or delegitimize an opponent, or to deter individual's usage of their legal rights. The term may refer to the use of legal systems and principles against an enemy, such as by damaging or delegitimizing them, wasting their time and money, or winning a public relations victory.Wikipedia"
Some sort of irony overload here, considering Trump's well-known legal tactics.
It turns out that everything in the newspaper about Hitler is negative. Therefore the newspaper isn't objective.
So Trump is as bad as Hitler?
JFC are you really that stupid?
Trump fans tend to be poorly educated, superstitious, gullible right-wing bigots inclined toward conspiracy theories and delusions -- and, therefore, part of the target audience of QAnon, the Republican Party, the Volokh Conspiracy.
I'd wager I'm more Ed-jew-ma-cated than you, "Coach"
So then... what is your excuse? Just a well-educated sociopath?
Well you certainly put me in my place with such a well reasoned argument.
It was very well-reasoned actually. Your logical fallacy is too ridiculous to be worth engaging, but it does raise the question: are you too stupid to recognize the fallacy? If so, you're pretty fucking stupid, and if not, you're a troll... but a pretty fucking stupid troll to think that anyone would take such ridiculous bait.
So maybe you're right... since you're pretty fucking stupid either way, SRG's question is rhetorical and mean. Sorry you're so stupid.
So your entire argument is to attack me with ad hominems, rather than actually pointing out the supposed flaws in my reasoning. I don’t consider that a winning argument, but maybe it works for you.
The sad thing David is that not everything Hitler did *was* bad -- the Germans would have seen through him if it had been...
Reality is that Hitler did a lot of good things. He built the Berlin Subway which is still largely original. He developed the concept of the limited access divided highway which became our Interstate system, and the "People's Car" or Volkswagen. He put people back to work much the way that FDR did.
The New York Times wrote glowing reviews of Hitler and the Nazi Party in the 1930s -- any decent sized library will have them on microfilm and you can read them.
History is complicated....
Hitler did not, in fact, build the Berlin subway or develop the concept of the limited access divided highway, and that's the least of the problems with Dr. Ed's "Actually Hitler was a pretty good guy and Obama was born in Kenya" position.
(The New York Times did not in fact "write glowing reviews of Hitler and the Nazi Party in the 1930s.")
'not everything Hitler did *was* bad'
This isn't even funny. It ought to be, but it isn't.
FFS Ed, that’s some of the weakest apologia I’ve ever seen. The Berlin subway system opened in 1902. You could have just said he was a vegetarian and liked puppies, and left it at that.
I have no idea how objective Lawfare is, but the linked articles make pretty clear and convincing arguments. Perhaps your time would have been better spent coming to terms with the legal points they are making.
Fucking ad hominem Brett? That is what your reduced to, having to defend Trump from the Dems no matter what.
Real sad display.
Is this a new thing?
I find the purity of this most obvious of fallacies to be new for Brett as of the past month or so.
He's got other fallacies he tends to favor. Or tended. I guess any port in a storm.
The LawFare Blog is owned by the Brookings Institute, long a partisan Dem mouthpiece. So, no, not the least bit nonpolitical.
Keep this in mind though, these charges have all the hallmarks of either having been fabricated by LawFare, or heavily influenced by them. Their work first came to national prominence with their creative misinterpretation of the § 1001 Obstruction statute that was used so heavily agains Trump and his people. It was the base of the Obstruction charge against Gen Flynn. What they essentially did was to read the Intent and Materiality requirements out of the statute. Flynn’s surprise interview with the FBI over his call with the Russian Ambassador couldn’t have been material, because the FBI agents had a transcript of the call in front of them. Ben Wisse of LawFare and Andrew Weissman, later lead Mueller prosecutor jointly wrote the article pushing this interpretation of § 1001 Obstruction, that was the basis of most of their perjury trap charges, as well as being used to shield them from OIG, Special Prosecutor, and Congressional oversight. It was only shut down with the confirmation of Barr as AG, who forced them to utilize the DOJ OLC interpretation of § 1001, that required both Materiality and Specific Intent.
An example of this is this creative LawFare like redefinition of criminal statutes is of the misuse of “defraud”. In the past, “defraud” was utilized creatively to sweep in non financial loss. But that was then, and this is now. In maybe May of this year, the US Supreme Court, in a pair of NYS political corruption cases, essentially said two relevant things: Defraud requires monetary loss, and Creative reinterpretation of criminal statues to sweep in activities that are not obviously covered by those statutes violates basic tenets of our jurisprudence (and IMHO likely Due Process). Both were done in the first charge by Smith, and pointing at rare cases from the past along these lines, doesn’t override recent SCOTUS precedent.
these charges have all the hallmarks of either having been fabricated by LawFare
OK, dude.
In the past, “defraud” was utilized creatively to sweep in non financial loss. But that was then, and this is now. In maybe May of this year, the US Supreme Court, in a pair of NYS political corruption cases, essentially said two relevant things: Defraud requires monetary loss, and Creative reinterpretation of criminal statues to sweep in activities that are not obviously covered by those statutes violates basic tenets of our jurisprudence (and IMHO likely Due Process).
That was about a different statute.
Bruce Hayden is either a lying liar who lies or an incompetent lawyer. Or both. That is not what materiality means, and has never been what it meant. There is a ton of reported caselaw on point. Whether they had the transcript in front of them has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the materiality element of § 1001. They interpreted the statute the way it has always been interpreted.
A reader immediately recognizes the viewpoint held by the author of any article regarding the 2020 election by the language they use. Here, Somin starts off with the language of the left so one knows what will immediately follow.
".....filed against Trump for his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election,...."
President Trump contested the validity of the election results of the Presidential election in 2020. Much as has been done in elections nationwide for decades. When the courts ruled against him, and when the time came for him to do so, he vacated the White House and returned to his home in Florida Yes, he continued to express his opinion that Biden won the electoral votes due to fraudulent votes which were cast in multiple states. And, I believe there is evidence that supports that allegation.
The democrats (along with the lawfare group) insisted Trump had won in 2016 only due to "Russian collusion". Somin gave that accusation credibility in articles for four years (plus). No one has been arrested for creating that narrative or the fake documents that supported it (one was charged but given a slight tap on the wrist and sent his merry way). In addition, democrats including Hillary herself insisted the election had been "stolen" from her.
However, Trump did not force elections official to change their reported vote outcomes. Yes, he did tell the Georgia SOS that given the small margin and the evidence he had seen regarding illegal ballots, the SOS should investigate and see if the fraudulent votes were sufficient to overcome the difference. But he did nothing but go through legal channels and to challenge to election outcome.
Suddenly, such a thing is against the law! For decades parties have challenged voting outcomes but only now is it a criminal act? And of course Somin and the "Lawfare" group (who have been instrumental in doing exactly what their names suggests against the former President ever since Trump announced his candidacy in 2015) all shout as one, "This is (D)ifferent".
Those in the legal profession often (most of the time) have different opinions as to law and how it should be applied. It's interesting that Reason legal writers always fall on the side against DJT.
I do have to wonder how many law professors are getting their own "ten percent for the big guy" by continuing the "lawfare" persecution against former President Trump. It is certainly interesting that they are always on the side against him even if it means pivoting from previously held legal opinions.
For few (very few) speak out against the current President for the more than credible evidence of corruption by him and his family members. For Biden, as is done for almost all Democrats, they find every excuse possible in both facts and law to insist they are not legally culpable for their actions.
Sure.
And your viewpoint is revealed. The problem is your viewpoint (Trump merely contested the validity of the election) is a delusion.
False.
False.
False.
False.
False.
So even you recognize that your statement was false.
"Do they give Nobel Prizes for attempted chemistry?"
False. He had seen no evidence of any sort regarding illegal ballots.
False.
Incorrect. Trump is not charged with "challenging voting outcomes." You should read the actual indictment.
"Why are people biased against criminals"?
There has been no such evidence about the president, which is why Trump's own DOJ took no action against him.
Video of every prominent Democrat today denying election results. Pay particular attention to Jimmy Carter's remarks about the 2016 election.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX2Ejqjz6TA
Calling him "illegitimate" is not "denying election results."
lol
Seriously? What else could it possibly mean? In a democracy, winning the election is what makes you 'legitimate' and nothing else. If you concede he won the election, he was the legitimate President, period.
Or else you're just rejecting democracy when you don't like the outcome of elections, of course.
Of course, they didn't reject democracy, they accepted that he'd been elected president, they just rejected everything he stood for and, frankly, he rejected them and everyone who didn't vote for him.
There was literally a movement within the federal government that called itself "the resistance" that rejected President Trump's authority to implement policy and acted to delay or block his policies. There was even an editorial published in the New York Times written by "Anonymous" ( later identified as Miles Taylor) bragging about it. That is rejecting democracy in my book and the left encouraged sn applauded it.
Says a lot that the guy who was supposed to be a genius business manager who was going to sort everything out entered government like an invading army and turned so many of his employees against himself. That seems like a blunder on his part. Plus, given his track record, they anticipated illegal or unethical orders and directives. He was constantly trying to set federal agencies on his enemies. Was it undemocratic to refuse to do so?
They opposed the policies of the legally elected POTUS. By the standards of the charges which you seem to support according to the postings here that was criminal behavior. Of course you support their illegal "resistance" because it supports your side. the "it's different when we do it" defense.
He was a president, not a king, his word was not law.
He was also supposed to be a brilliant manager and communicator. Lol.
He was the POTUS. They were bureaucrats whose job was to implement his policies. They had no legal right to obstruct his policies merely because they disagreed with those policies.
They're not his lawyers, they didn't want to go to jail for any crimes he wanted them to commit.
"Of course, they didn’t reject democracy, they accepted that he’d been elected president,"
Then they should have implemented his policies instead of obstructing or blocking them. And if they thought his policies illegal they should have gone whistleblower. Of course they really didn't think his policies were illegal, they thought they had the right to oppose policies they disagreed with because he was "illegitimate" and thus not really POTUS.
Of course they really didn’t think his policies were illegal
His own people thought his policies were illegal, he was impeached twice and now he's indicted for crimes.
Yes, his partisans think it's all a sign of his being persecuted, but to do that the conspiracy has to include the Federal civil service, state governors, many in his own cabinet, the GOP in Congress, the media, a lot of judges, Trump's Veep....
It's getting pretty ridiculous!
Why would they need to whistleblow? He was perfectly obvious about the sort of thing he liked to do. Remember sharpiegate?
No, there wasn't.
You didn't bother to read the editorial. Here's what he actually said:
It doesn't mean anything at all. There's no legal significance; it's just name-calling.
Don't be deliberately obtuse. I doubt Carter was referring to whether Trump was born out of wedlock or not.
And Carter openly said the only reason Trump won was because the Russians rigged the election. Then he called him "illegitimate" which means "not legitimately elected".
Y'know, it seems likely that Russian interference did not win the election for Trump, but Russia did try to interfere, and the candidate Russia was supporting knew about it, had lots of Russian connections he lied about, and was at a minimum open to accepting that interference, and the same doofus went on to try to actively overturn the results of the next election, and these actions, apart and together, are going to undermine his legitimacy, and no amount of whining from you lot is going to change that.
So in other words, Carter did deny the 2016 election results (along with Biden, Hillary, Chuck Schumer and so many others), and no amount of whining from you lot is going to change that.
That's despite you pulling out a lot of unrelated crap in order to provide a smokescreen so you can get away.
"Not legitimately elected" doesn't mean "not elected" any more than "not legitimately acquired" means "not acquired."
Example dictionary definitions of "legitimate" are "fair and honest" and "reasonable and acceptable."
Carter, Chuck, et at were saying that Trump's valid election was the result of unreasonable, unacceptable, unfair, and dishonest behavior.
It's basically like calling shenanigans.
What does it mean then?
Do you think when a woman has an illegitimate son he's not actually her son?
Illegitimate doesn't mean invalid. No one ever said that Hillary was the true winner of the election like Republicans did with Trump. If something's illegitimate it's valid, but it stands in violation of the norms of polite society and is therefore unworthy of respect.
Regarding Trump's claim that Biden won the electoral votes due to fraudulent votes which were cast in multiple states, you wrote: "And, I believe there is evidence that supports that allegation." Well, now you have our attention, and we expect that you'll post that evidence any minute now.
“45” was ahead by hundreds of thousands of votes in PA, MI, WI, AZ, GA, NV the morning after the erection, and the “late” votes just happened to go 95% DemoKKKrat, there’s a word for that and it rhymes with Bullshit.
You made that claim earlier. It remains false.
Good article. I wonder why NC is not under some scrutiny as Biden had an initial lead and was overtaken by Trump. Why does that not raise the flag of concern.
Apart from it being false, why would it even matter--except in a fantasy world where ballots are only counted on the day of the election?
For one thing, in most of those disputed states, counting was shut down early in the morning the day after the election, and Republican watchers were evicted. Then, counting was restarted, and that was when the 95% Dem votes were brought in (at least in several states) and counted. The identical thing happened in Detroit, Philadelphia, and Atlanta, at almost the exact same time – eviction of the Republican watchers, then hundreds of thousands of votes tallied for Biden with no Republicans present to oversee the process, in each of these cities.
Did you read my link which demonstrates the 95% figure is pure fiction (and so too is the shit about eviction)?
Literally none of that happened. It's a MAGA fabrication.
What makes it even more obviously maliciously a lie is that Biden actually did relatively worse in places like Detroit and Philadelphia than Hillary did in 2016.
Oh Nate Silverstein's Blog! the guy who got 2016 totally wrong, that's convincing!
The article presents raw data which are factually true without regard to Silver’s prediction. You on the other hand, are making shit up.
But since you brought it up, Silver gave Trump a 29% chance of winning, the highest value among the poll aggregators. If his model was good, he was supposed to get it it “wrong” 29% of the time.
1) Who the hell is Nate Silverstein?
2) Nate Silver did not get 2016 totally wrong. In fact, he gave Trump a significantly higher chance of winning the election than other sites, and was roundly criticized by those sites for it, but he was of course correct.
3) Whether he got a prediction correct — he did — has nothing to do with whether the facts there are correct.
CindyF and the Volokh Conspiracy are a perfect pairing.
Except for the Somin part, of course.
Why won't Prof. Volokh please his fans by dumping Prof. Somin (and, ideally, finding another Josh Blackman)?
Cindy -- it was different because the election went to the House, but the supporters of Andrew Jackson hounded John Quincy Adams with claims of a "corrupt bargain" -- and then defeated him in the next election.
If true, the “you’re too honest” complaint to Pence will be what does him in. It implies, if not outright establishes, his request to Pence was made with dishonest intent.
Whatever else you may think of Pence, he had his Profiles in Courage moment. The pressure on him was enormous, but he put the Constitution ahead of his boss.
I don't like Pence's politics and find his overall personality a bit odd. But he is unquestionably a serious and moral person. You gotta feel for the guy, ending up in the loony-tunes cesspool of Trump's White House...
Ambition drove him to sell Trump on him being VP candidate. Maybe just to raise his national profile if Trump didn't win in 2016, maybe to be Vice President (bucket of warm piss/spit or not), maybe for the lottery ticket that a 70+ year old might not live through a four year term. Good for him for not joining the post-election conspiracies, but no sympathy for his time in the Trump administration.
He’s the one guy around Trump who couldn’t be fired. He had four years to slap some sense into him. Instead time and again he was servile.
Do you have any evidence that Pence was the guy who sold Trump on picking Pence?
My impression is that he picked Pence as the one guy in Washington utterly guaranteed not to displace him from the headlines. Guaranteed scandal free, with no chance of competing with Trump for the GOP voting base.
If he could have selected a department store manikin, he would have, Pence was the next best thing.
No; he picked someone who would help him with a group he might have had trouble with (although we know in hindsight that they turned out to have even fewer principles than any other group): evangelicals.
Nobody could displace Trump from the headlines. There are many many many many (many many many) things that Trump is bad at, but self-promotion isn't one of them.
That seems sensible. Trump probably was worried about the gulf between reality (he is a walking flouting of the Ten Commandments who is about as religious as a box of rocks) and evangelicals' perception of him, which perception was invaluable to Trump; Pence provided some insurance at relatively low cost.
Pence may have approached seeking the VP selection in the same mostly passive way he acted as VP.
But Pence's team definitely pushed Pence, and they worked for Pence, and Pence could have declined but didn't, so he still deserves no sympathy for his time in the Trump administration.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/11/mike-pence-donald-trump-vp-228059/
Or it was cowardice. He was in a coward's dilemma. He went with the 'safe' option, ie, the only one he was in fact allowed to make. The right choice was, literally, his only actual choice. He didn't have the power to do anything else. Stepping up in even a futile effort to break the system would have taken someone with a backbone. Thank goodness.
Carlos Inconvenience "...the “you’re too honest” complaint to Pence will be what does him in..."
One of the things, surely. William Barr might testify, and he's on the record saying he had multiple conversations with Trump about the complete absence of any proof of voting fraud. There's also Trump's scheme to get DOJ to send a letter to states claiming a investigation of fraud allegations was underway. Because of that inquiry - the states were to be told - they should postpone vote certification.
The inquiry didn't exist and Trump knew it. Nevertheless, he wanted the letters sent and was dissuaded only by the threat of mass resignations at Justice.
There are going to be dozens of ways to prove dishonest intent by the time this goes to trial. Trump tried to steal a presidential election. He better hope Biden wins and is in a generous mood, otherwise he'll be wearing a prison jumpsuit as bright as his hair.
And it couldn't happen to a more worthy grifter....
Bill Barr! How does he know there was no fraud? He didn't look for any and discounted the reports that there was. No one can say there was no fraud in the 2020 election. Obviously there was so that makes Barr a liar right off the bat.
Same way he knows that the lizard people from Mars didn't cause the Chiefs to beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl: the complete lack of anything even remotely resembling any sort of evidence.
Barr has referred to "substantial fraud" or "fraud that could have affected the result."
You seem profoundly stupid and angry.
I'm fine with: just too honest. We could use a hefty dose of honesty (and humility) in DC.
As Bored Lawyer indicates, VPOTUS Pence met the moment and showed what kind of man he is. I know that I am listening closely to what VP Pence has to say about his old boss. Because VPOTUS Pence is an honest man, I place more emphasis on his words.
I would have held my nose and voted for Pence, had he been the Republican nominee. I'm not too keen on religious nutters, but Constitution and the rule of law would have kept him in check.
Were that true, you would no longer be a Republican.
I think his comment to McCarthy “Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are” was better.
I mean, it's just stupid broad to charge Trump under those laws. You could just as easily charge Biden under those laws, under much the same reasoning.
Biden? How so?
It's illegal for a President to pressure someone into doing something they don't have a legal authority to do? What's the implication for, just picking one of *many* things out of a hat here, Biden's first attempt at student loan forgiveness? I mean, certainly he said himself he didn't have authority to do that.
There is a legitimate debate as to whether Biden had that authority. Such debates happen all the time when it comes to policy choices. There wasn't a legitimate debate over what Trump tried to do and it wasn't about a policy choice.
What about pressuring OSHA to issue a vaccine mandate?
Enlighten us, please! I can’t wait for the highly erudite follow-up to your sheep-like repetitive bleating of “these are not crimes”.
FJB pressured OSHA into doing an act that exceeded its legal authority.
Yet another legitimate legal question about a policy choice.
Pressuring? It was an order from the Executive. For most agencies, that's how it works.
To give an example (one among many), one of the law makes it a crime to "conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose"
And...
"As the Lawfare article explains,the Supreme Court has long interpreted this as going beyond financial fraud, to include any actions that "interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft, or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest"
Again, how this law it being used to charge Trump is...unique...
How else might it be used "Uniquely?". If, for example, you got a bunch of national security-type people together to write a letter saying that a certain laptop was implied to be Russian disinformation and not reality, when you were in fact aware it wasn't Russian disinformation...
That's a type of deceit, trickery, etc. And if that trickery somehow obstructed or interfered any government function in any way...If any government organization at least partially relied upon that assessment, even temporarily...the law's been broken.
Now, has this law ever been used this way in the past? No. But that's the point, using this law in new and novel ways is how it's being used to prosecute Trump.
That's just one example. The issue with using laws "creatively" to prosecute political enemies is that it's basically a corruption of the system.
Ah, yes, threats and attempts at intimidation. Very Trumpian at the moment.
has this law ever been used this way in the past? No.
You believe this, but that's because you're ignorant and lean into it.
If you were capable of reading and understanding the indictment, or even capable of reading and understanding the analysis of the indictment, you’d have your answers. But you’re incapable of either of those things so you’re better off just dropping the questions.
"I mean, it’s just stupid broad to charge Trump under those laws. You could just as easily charge Biden under those laws, under much the same reasoning."
Do you claim that Joe Biden has violated 18 U.S.C. §§ 241, 371, 1512(c)(2) and/or 1512(k)? If so, what are your supporting facts? Please be speccific.
Still waiting for you to give us those supporting facts, Mr. Lawyer. Any day now would be good.
For some reason that I can't fathom, parsing actual criminal statutes is a bridge too far for Trump supporters on these comment threads.
I'm shocked that you would make unsupported allegations yet again.
...to be continued.
The argument against Somin boils down to, if Trump does it, it's not illegal, and to hold him to it is political persecution.
How right Trump was when he made his 5th avenue shooting claim.
The indictment alleges at ¶10.b.:
How does anyone claim that this conduct is First Amendment protected? “Many long established criminal proscriptions—such as laws against conspiracy, incitement, and solicitation—criminalize speech . . . that is intended to induce or commence illegal activities.” United States v. Williams, 553 U.S. 285, 298 (2008). Speech or writing used as an integral part of conduct in violation of a valid criminal statute is simply unprotected by the First Amendment. Giboney v. Empire Storage & Ice Co., 336 U.S. 490, 498 (1949).
Because they were not yet official slates of electors, pending litigation. This was obvious at the time. Historically, several elections have been decided by dueling slates of electors.
Bruce coming into the game with straight-up lies!
Shocking!
It's just an audition to join the Volokh Conspiracy.
To be fair, I think he and many are less lying than lied to and spend a lot of energy avoiding critical thinking.
Which is not really better, actually.
“Furthermore, it's far from clear that proving Trump knew this is essential to get a conviction conviction.”
Wow. Not just a conviction, but a conviction conviction? Wouldn’t that be double jeopardy?
There's probably enuff proof to go for a twofer....
Thanks Prof. Somin for this post.
I sincerely appreciate the time it took for you, Professor Somin, to condescend to answer questions not on my mind: you answers to such unasked questions are thorough and complete. But my certainly simple mind turns to other questions.
First, those who -- due to stupidity, gullibility, or partisanship -- wrongly accused the cited defendant of misdeeds ("Russian collusion") must have grown since their past malfeasances. Can you tell me how those experts cited in this post have increased in knowledge, grown in their ability to reject incogent arguments, and renounced partisan bias?
Second, "reasonable doubt" is a concept in our understanding of jurisprudence. For example, one known as Madame Hillary -- a lesser-known of the sex partners of an impeached former president who stands as America's analogue to Lucretia Borgia -- had a one-in-seven-trillion chance of making the profit she did from something known as the "Whitewater Investment"... and that one-in-seven trillion chance was reasonable doubt. As another example, in a case literally dripping with DNA evidence, it was reasonably possible that a president tripped and spilled his semen onto a passer-by. As a final example, it is reasonably possible that a president -- whose records of activities during the ABSCAM sting have not been fully destroyed -- did not illegally accept bribes. What standard of reasonable doubt applies to the cited defendant?
Third, should we use the standard for charging the cited defendant as the standard for charging other defendants? The overwhelming majority of American are ready, willing, and able to indict, convict, and condemn anyone who meets the appropriate standards: no small town [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1_RKu-ESCY] gives much leeway to the truly rotten among us!
I have never believed that Hillary legitimately made those profits in futures. At the same time, there has been a 30-year concerted effort by the GOP - and, when in power, the GOP's DOJ - to find something to hang on Hillary, and in all that time the best they could do was the email scrub accusation. And in a pleasant irony, that email scrub is the kind of thing that Trump supporters claim is merely a process crime - so not a real crime - when Trump or associates are accused of it.
+1
The fact that you are equating Trump and Clinton's conduct but have no problem that Clinton wasn't even investigated (much less charged) speaks volumes.
Sure. There have been no investigations of either Clinton over the past 30 years.
Clinton was not investigated over her illegal possession of classified material.
You guys just make stuff up.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system
Comey exonerated Crooked Hillary based on his determination that her actions were careless, and not intentional. That wasn’t the legal standard, and not his job to make the decision. Nevertheless, there was plenty of evidence that her actions were intentional. She was repeatedly briefed about her responsibilities involving classified documents. Not just yearly, but maybe even weekly. I know someone who briefed her quarterly on terrorism, throughout her term as Secretary of State, who had her admit each time that she knew and understood her responsibilities. Yet, somehow, Comey determined, all by himself, that that didn’t arise to the level of gross negligence required by the statute. (Actually, it wasn’t by Comey himself, but rather as a result of input from the team investigating her email server, led by the ubiquitous Peter Strzok, who told his lover, Lisa Page, that they would stop Trump, and get Clinton elected. He also ran the Crossfire Hurricane investigation into Trump).
The claim was that there was no investigation. That was a lie.
'Comey determined, all by himself, that that didn’t arise to the level of gross negligence required by the statute'
Yes, she was investiagted, and was found to have done nothing that called for a prosecution.
Seriously? You missed Mid-Year Exam, Jim Comey, and of course roughly 5,217 investigations conducted by Hoause Republicans?
One must applaud the Volokh Conspirators for the years of tenacious work and obvious skill they have devoted to cultivating a collection of fans this poorly informed, belligerently stupid, bigoted, and disaffected.
"At the same time, there has been a 30-year concerted effort by the GOP – and, when in power, the GOP’s DOJ – to find something to hang on Hillary,"
Quite right. Hillary benefited from the now defunct norm of never prosecuting former administrations for crimes committed while in office, and giving their flunkies (Think Sandy Berger.) slaps on the wrist if they get caught at serious crimes committed on their behalf.
I think it was a corrupt norm, and I would have been happy to see Trump break it. But he chickened out. So it was up to Biden to break it, instead.
I wonder if, when he leaves office, Democrats will attempt to glue it back together, and demand Republicans follow it? I'm betting they will.
So, anyway, the norm that protected Hillary still unbroken, Trump foolishly expected it to protect him, too, and did shit that he'd certainly not have done if he'd been on notice that it was gone, and that he was actually expected to obey laws that were normally only enforced against 'little people'. First mover advantage to the Democrats.
For the record, I think it was amazingly stupid of Trump to assume the norm would last long enough to protect him, that he was going to get the same treatment previous former Presidents had. He had 4 years to learn that the Democrats would break any norm to get at him, and didn't learn it.
That's one of the things that soured me on him. The guy just does not learn from experience.
For someone to be prosecuted they have to have committed prosecutable crimes.
‘But he chickened out.’
He called for mutliple investigations of Hilary Clinton while president. His DOJ launched an investigation. They found nothing. He has tried to sue her and his case was thrown out.
Hillary absolutely could have been prosecuted. Comey didn't claim she'd done nothing to prosecute, just that she'd normally benefit from prosecutorial discretion.
Which is the norm I'm talking about.
Coulda been, Brett has run the numbers!
No, she didn’t, it was decided that what happened wasn’t a prosecutable offence. Trump, on the other hand, tried to overthrow an election.
What gave the head of the FBI the authority to make such a decision?
Did he not have that power? But even if he somehow didn't, presmably the guys doing the investigation for Trump did.
"Did he not have that power? "
No, he did not. The rest of your comment is irrelevant.
Wonder how he managed to exercise a power he didn't have, then. I expect the irrelevance of the rest of my comment is down to you not having an answer to it.
Brett Bellmore : “Comey didn’t claim she’d done nothing to prosecute, just that she’d normally benefit from prosecutorial discretion”
If you wanna take a sec from being an empty hollow-shell hack, here’s how you can rephrase that : “No one has EVER been criminally charged for the offenses Hillary Clinton would faced.” For using private email? First, it wasn’t even illegal. Second, it was commonplace in the tenures of both of Clinton’s predecessors. Colin Powell, for instance, used AOL.
Or maybe for mistaking the classification status of a message, later upgraded to classified. Boy, there are tons of problems with that! First, no one has ever been criminally prosecuted for it. Second, the feds would have to build a bunch more prisons if they did. Third, a full 99.9% of the emails in question were sent to Hillary by people using unsecure State Department email. The root mistake was theirs and by the same “logic” they should have been charged too.
Clinton didn’t get favorable treatment, she got worse. When it was discovered General Powell also sent email by AOL that was later upgraded to classified, no one cared. Comey knew there was no chance of charges without treating Clinton different that everyone before or since. He knew that before the investigation even began.
That makes his last-minute intervention before the election even more excusable, even before it effectively put Donald Trump in the White House. But it was CYA political theater for Comey and the FBI, aided by the clown’s preening conviction he’s the most righteous person on the planet. (It’s easy for someone to cut ethical corners when he admires his moral bearing every time he passes a mirror)
There was no Hillary Clinton administration you inexhaustibly ignorant shithead.
SRG : “I have never believed that Hillary legitimately made those profits in futures”
Sigh. Am I the only one old enough to remember the actual facts of stuff like this? First, Clinton didn’t make any trades herself. They were all done by futures traders James Blair and Robert Bone. The former was a long-term friend of the Clintons and extremely successful at commodity trading before he got into trouble with the law. The Clinton trades all existed and were completely documented. There were only two possible issues:
(1) The Clinton trades might have been an example of a broker cherry-picking his trades for a favorite client. That wouldn’t have been illegal, but it would have raised ethical issues. However the evidence ran against that; the trades were a continuous string of individual transactions that swung wildly up & down between profit and loss. That’s the exact opposite profile of a cherry-picking broker.
(2) The second issue was substantive, though. After trades with heavy losses, the Clintons exceeded their margin call. If they got favorable treatment from their broker over that, it would have definitely been an ethical issue. However Blair and Bone were letting all their clients slide. They did so before the Clinton trades and continued after the spooked Clintons fled the market. That was a source of their subsequent legal issues.
And that’s it. Personal note : This accounting came from a article by James Glassman eons ago in the New Republic. Years later. Andrew Sullivan was sneering over the Clinton futures profits using highly conspiratorial language. This was because he hates the Clintons and that’s the kinda thing he does. I sent him a message saying (politely) he was full of shit – and I knew that from reading his own damn magazine.
He responded it was a good article.
The last thing the Volokh Conspirators and their fans want is someone like you spoiling the party.
You are under several misconceptions. Here are two:
1) Trump was not trying to substitute electors, he was wanting to get them ready in case any state reversed theirs.
2) Pence's role was to count electors regularly given. He runs the show and no one could stop him from entertaining views as to the question of electors regularly given. Furthermore, there was never a notion of putting pressure on Pence to block the electoral vote count. This is a myth/lie perpetuated by the "state" media.
Furthermore, you are biased and most likely only fed by "state" media which is why your knowledge, of events, is distorted. More so, your knowledge of Constitutional Law is lacking.
With the 110 + years of Constitutional usurpation, it's no wonder so many are bereft of the necessary foundation to which such guidance would be of great benefit. Most of the usurpation is from 1945 onwards. And, today the fulfilment of dictatorship is nearly complete with the installed Biden.
The fake electors did not claim anything like what you just made up.
As to you being the only real constitution understander….Sovereign Citizen?
To be fair, it is much easier to debate when you just make up "facts" to support whatever you want.
So should we say Kennedy was also breaking the law when he sent duplicate electors in 1960? Near as anyone can tell, that was the exact same situation as this one - the results in some state are close and in dispute so both sides certify a set of electors so as to be ready on the off chance that their challenge happens to prevail. It feels like a BIG stretch to call it "fraud" given that context.
More here: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/07/1960-electoral-college-certificates-false-trump-electors-00006186
The indictment charges Trump with being part of a criminal conspiracy. The actions taken in the fake elections scheme are relevant because they were allegedly taken to further that criminal conspiracy. I'm not aware of any reason to think that Kennedy was involved in a criminal conspiracy in 1960. So, no, we should not say that Kennedy was breaking the law.
I love the fact that, once you invent a conspiracy to break a law, not only don't you have to prove the law was broken, you can use lawful acts as proof of the conspiracy.
When "conspiracy" is invoked, just not breaking any laws ceases to be of any help. Is that good? I don't think so.
The crimes that are suddenly no longer crimes if Trump is accused of them: faud, conspiracy, theft of government documents, mishandling of classified documents, attempting to overthrow an election. Also, juries are now out.
Attempt and conspiracy are baseline criminal law, Brett. This is not some new thing just invented to go after Trump.
Your cries of it’s not a fair thing to charge is just the special pleasing you have even bathing in since the first indictment.
The situation in Hawaii in 1960 is not at all analogous. There was a genuine dispute there as to which candidate had received the most votes. There was a recount underway when the slates of electors was submitted. Neither the Republican electors nor the Democratic electors intended to defraud anyone.
From the Politico article linked by Glen Raphael:
Senator Kennedy eventually was declared the winner in the Hawaii recount by 115 votes, but the two sets of certifications were waiting when the joint session of Congress convened. Democrats, including Rep. Daniel K. Inouye, were ready to lodge an objection if the GOP slate was counted, but the presiding officer — then-Vice-president Nixon — asked for and received unanimous consent that the votes of the Democratic electors would count. https://rollcall.com/2020/10/26/we-the-people-what-happens-when-a-state-cant-decide-on-its-electors/
No. The results in no states in 2020 were in dispute. A few hundred votes separated the candidates in Hawaii in 1960, and there was an ongoing recount at the time the electors met, and the recount actually changed the result. Nothing remotely like that happened in 2020, so it was not "the exact same situation."
The fact that the recount changed the result couldn't retroactively make the electors' actions prior to that event legal. At the time they filed, it was still the case that Nixon was the certified winner, and that's the relevant point: It is claiming to be the elector when the other guy was certified that is supposed to be the fraud.
David is NEVER wrong.
If David is wrong, see above.
Look at this very different argument from anything relevant in the inducement we are discussing.
Even your attempt to equate ends up showing how unalike these situations were.
Now all you have to do is show conspiracy and fraud in that particular case.
You as always miss the point. The fact that the recount, which was ongoing at the time of the electors vote, changed the result showed that there was an actual bona fide dispute about who had won, rather than a scheme by the campaign to steal the election.
No, you’re missing my point, that an illegal act has to be illegal at the time it takes place, it’s illegality can’t hinge on subsequent events. The Democratic electors could not have known that Nixon would lose the recount.
You’re claiming that the fact that Kennedy prevailed, and Trump did not is proof that there was a real dispute in 1960, and none in 2020. But that’s not proof, you’re conflating having a real dispute with eventually winning.
Try common sense. There was a real dispute in 1960 because the recount could have altered the result. There was no real dispute in 2020 because Trump made up shit that he won.
Beside the point.
If fake electors was violated a law enacted before the 1960 election, then Kennedy violated the law.
I am unaware of a subsequent statute that expressly criminalized presenting fake electors.
They weren't fake if the recount was proceeding.
Nixon was certified the winner in Hawaii.
A judge ruled that the recount should nonetheless proceed.
Had Trump gotten a court to order an investigation into fraud, then his alternate electors would be OK in case the investigation came up with something. Instead, the electors were fake because there was no court order and no evidence to support their existence.
"If fake electors was violated a law enacted before the 1960 election, then Kennedy violated the law."
Should we disinter and prosecute him?
"I am unaware of a subsequent statute that expressly criminalized presenting fake electors."
What you are aware of or unaware of means diddley squat.
18 U.S.C. § 1001 predates 1960, but it remains in full force and effect.
So Kennedy violated 18 U.S.C. § 1001.
Did anyone think that at the time?
Have y'all lost your ability to read?
An attempt to defraud is all about intent. Did Kennedy intend for his slate of electors to be counted even if he'd lost the Hawaii recount? Obviously not.
Did Trump intend for his slates of electors to be counted even if he'd lost the states they purported to represent? Obviously yes.
This is all totally clear. Please try to leave the cultmind.
I don’t think Trump (or anyone else) should be “above the law.” However, for the good of American society, I would like it if prosecutors of one party didn’t charge a former president of the other party with crimes that have never been successfully prosecuted before, or crimes that depend on a particular political persuasion to see.
AGREED!
This thing is really starting to look like King George's mess circa 1770.
To someone who isn't qualified to teach middle school social studies, perhaps.
But what about to peoples beside yourself?
Look at all the crimes the Demodrats and the rest of the Government get away with. For decades.
They don't care what you think. You didn't vote them in, no one can vote them out. Most were never voted on to begin with.
Democrats laugh at you while they arrest your Nana for speaking up at a school board, or against grooming, or against election fraud, or against abortion.
Every one of the crimes for which Trump has been indicted has been successfully prosecuted before. The exact fact pattern has not been, for obvious reasons: no other person has ever done what Trump did.
I was going to snark that your proposal amounted to one free coup attempt, but it's worse than that; if nobody can be prosecuted unless someone was prosecuted before, then nobody can ever be prosecuted.
"Every one of the crimes for which Trump has been indicted has been successfully prosecuted before."
The New York charges specifically require something like three completely novel legal theories to work.
"if nobody can be prosecuted unless someone was prosecuted before, then nobody can ever be prosecuted."
If you've reached a nonsensical place trying to understand someone else's argument then you're probably not getting it right. I'm asking for the good of society that new, untested legal theories not be wheeled out. But apparently tly that means I am authorizing former presidents to commit murder or whatever.
He is talking about the two federal indictments, which fit well within long-standing precedent.
The NYS criminal indictment, OTOH, is a crock.
A lot of people on both the Left and Right think the New York charges are an exceptional abuse of prosecutorial discretion. I’m no expert – being an architect not a lawyer (whew!) – but the number of people holding that view and their spread across the ideological spectrum is pretty persuasive.
But that’s the only case in Trump’s morass of legal issues meeting that description. His behavior in the documents case was exceptionally egregious. It was like he was daring the government to file criminal charges. He could have defused the situation a dozen different times or ways, yet always refused.
Likewise with the attempt to steal an election he lost. If a candidate for municipal dogcatcher tried half of Trump’s tactics to subvert, sabotage or rig the election process, I’m sure he’d quickly face criminal charges.
Likewise with the coming Georgia charges.
How do the theories ever get tested, then?
Not on the chief political opposition to the president? Who is statistically tied or leading the president in all recent polling?
But that's essentially always going to be true for a case like this which involves the electoral college. There's just no other way to "test" it other than on a prior president who lost reelection, which means it'll necessarily be prosecuted by his opponent.
There always has to be a first time.
Much worse would be to set the precedent that bad behavior by an outgoing president will go unpunished. If we don't prosecute the first one, it's even harder to prosecute the second or third.
Right. Indeed, we're already seeing that with the 1960 references: nobody prosecuted Kennedy so we can't prosecute Trump.
“I would like it if prosecutors of one party didn’t charge a former president of the other party…”
Pro tip: Just shut the fuck up.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/trump-truth-social-smith-evidence-2020/index.html
This angry black shows her bias against Trump and every J6 defendant.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/05/politics/giuliani-lawsuit-2020-election/index.html
This judge is a moonbat Jewish liberal who was married to a black.
Why either of these two savage degenerates are allowed to hear any cases involving conservative white men is a mystery to me.
Wow. Blatant racism and antisemitism. Do you not see how that hurts your case?
You start from the presumption that I want to "win my case" through convincing genetic inferiors of their inferiority. I don't.
Lol, I thought you wanted to convince the rest of us?
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of Right-Wing Bigots
(Just ask the proprietor how many times he has published racial slurs during the past couple of years.)
Years or decades from now, some reporter will probably quote an unnamed Democrat as admitting "It became necessary to destroy the democracy to save it."
Wow, that's as good as a real quote from a real person said right now! Evidence!
Yeah, probably.
The Justice Department has been cowed to the point of timidity by fear that they will be widely accused of a political prosecution. In doing so, it has weakened the case against Trump, and made it needlessly confusing. It would have been better had prosecutors taken head on the question of political prosecution, and asserted on historical principles why it was both necessary and legitimate to bring a political prosecution to answer a political crime.
There is confusion among the public, for whom the term, "political"—in now-common parlance—connotes petty motives, and abets cynical nihilism with regard to government. That is a far cry from the founders' view of the role of politics. For them, politics were the legitimate constitutional means by which the sovereign People must necessarily regulate and constrain government.
The present moment is one which demands reassertion and reinvigoration of that older idea of politics. Trump must be prosecuted politically because ordinary charges of sub-chapter lawbreaking obscure the political nature of his crimes, and thus confuse the public and hobble the prosecution.
The notion that political crimes exist, and are legitimately chargeable, is indispensable in any system such as ours. Our system posits government constrained by a collective sovereign with powers superior to government's. Politics has always been the legitimate means by which those sovereign powers are organized and brought to bear. In American constitutionalism politics are indispensable.
Almost no one, not even among his defenders, is in any real doubt about the political crime Trump committed. To the extent there is controversy, it is a division between citizens who opposed the crime, and others who still want to cheer it on.
Trump attempted to overthrow American constitutionalism, and he did it with violence. He committed treason. That is the only crime with which he should have been charged. It is quite simply the most comprehensible case to make in court. It is the only charge which fully captures the extent of Trump's malevolent planning and the concerted actions he led and undertook with others.
Of course the publicly-known evidence that Trump intended constitutional overthrow is already beyond doubt. Benighted supporters may remain oblivious to published accounts of actions which prove that. They can be instructed in court by evidence the prosecution will present.
Beyond the question of intent is the fact of violence. No one can reasonably doubt that on January 6 deadly violence occurred during an overt attempt to thwart government as it executed the most fundamental of the sovereign People's constitutive powers.
But one uncertainty necessary to prove treason remains current among some members of the public. Did Trump attempt to organize and instigate the violence? It is absurd that that should remain an open question. Trump did it in public.
Consider what the conclusion at trial would be if Trump had hidden from public view his intent to direct murderous rage against Vice President Mike Pence. What would the legal posture be at trial if instead of tweeting openly his goad to violence, it were disclosed to a jury that Trump had sent it privately, by a back channel, to leaders of the private militias assaulting the Capitol?
In any such trial prior to our present age of mass public communication, that would have been the lynchpin of a conviction. It would be proof beyond reasonable doubt to connect Trump to the violence. Why should it be any different that it was done publicly now, simply because the means to do so have become commonplace?
That Trump intended and committed treason on January 6 is beyond reasonable doubt. Treason is the ultimate political crime. A foolish sensitivity to being called political—undoubtedly bolstered by a wiser fear of retaliatory political abuse in the future—has constrained the Justice Department from charging Trump with the political crime he undoubtedly intended and did commit. A wiser approach would let the case turn on that question of Trump's effectual leadership of the January 6 violence, and see what a jury decides.
Either way, the record for history will be far clearer than anything the current prosecution approach can deliver. And whatever the outcome of a trial, the deterrent effect delivered by a charge of treason will be more effective and better remembered than any result the present Justice Department's trial by legal punctilio can be expected to achieve.
Deterrence of future Trump-like conduct is by far the most urgent public need to be served by this prosecution. Even if conviction failed, and Trump went free, that would be of small consequence in comparison.
Thank you for putting everyone back to sleep.
William Roper: Arrest that man!
Thomas More: On what law?
Margaret More: Father, that man’s bad.
More: There’s no law against that.
William: There is. God’s law.
More: Then God can arrest him.
William: So now you give the Devil benefit of law?
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that.
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s. And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!
—- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
It's worse than that. Trump supporters want to cut down every law to *protect* him.
Stephen Lathrop,
Please stop trying to help.
Nothing substantive by way of critique? What have you got? 1A speech freedom? Incredulity? Legal explication of the law of treason? Political philosophy? Predictions about policy results? Lots of possibilities.
Yes. Trump committed several crimes, but not treason. Which is defined in the Constitution. Which is why the prosecutor did not charge treason.
Exactly.
Sounds like incredulity. Or maybe reluctance to see a high status defendant treated alike with an ordinary one. On what part of the constitutional definition do you think evidence against Trump is lacking? I suggest that before you answer you familiarize yourself with prior cases. I have noticed that most folks who think they understand the constitutional definition are surprised when they find out how low the bar has been for making war against the United States.
I do not believe there has been a single non-wartime conviction for treason against the United States since the Whiskey Rebellion.
Weren't the Rosenbergs charged with treason?
espionage
Yep. And the reason was because — despite Lathrop's bloviating — treason is construed extremely narrowly in the American tradition. Although one would certainly colloquially describe the Rosenbergs as traitors, we were not officially at war with the Soviet Union, and therefore it's unlikely the specific charge would've stuck.
No war between nations is required to meet the constitutional definition of treason. The Rosenbergs could not be charged with treason because they took no action to inflict violence on the United States.
Lathrop continues to bloviate, not having bothered to even read the constitution.
I think the framers deliberately defined treason so as to distinguish war against the United States, the people of the United States, from war against the government of the United States. They didn’t want treason to be about politics. They had had enough of that with what happened in England. That’s why backing the wrong candidate, even a coup, is not treason.
It may be insurrection. But it’s not treason. The two are different crimes.
ReaderY, you have offered that comment because you think it sounds plausible, not because you have any legal or historical evidence to base it on.
Are you still searching for the "prior cases." We are all waiting with bated breath. (Or baited breath.)
Why don't you cite these supposed "prior cases" construing the Treason Clause.
Bored Lawyer, read: Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout :: 8 U.S. 75 (1807)
Then read Marshall's decision acquitting Burr of treason.
Wait, you cite a case that interpreted treason narrowly — such that conspiring to wage war against the U.S. was actually deemed insufficient to be treason — as evidence that the bar for treason is surprisingly low?
Yes I do. For the excellent reason that, "narrow interpretation," is a relative standard. What were legal interpretations narrow enough to acquit Burr were fully broad enough to encompass Trump's conduct in all its particulars. Read the cases or not, just as you please.
Once again, for careless readers of the Constitution, the cases have not insisted than any war between nations is necessary for treason to occur. Nor is there any need for disruption commensurate with full-scale war. The events of January 6 go far beyond the standards set forth explicitly in the Burr cases.
I think the one legally contestable count is Count IV.
In the District of Columbia, uniquely in the country, the 23rd Amendment provides that the District’s presidential Electors shall be appointed in the manner directed by Congress, and accordingly, involvement of ordinary citizens in the selection of the President is secured by Federal law.
Nowhere else in the country is this the case. Everywhere else, the appointment of Presidential Electors is controlled by Article II of the Constitution, which assigns the determination of how Presidential Electors shall be appointed for each State to the legislature of that state. Accordingly, any involvement of ordinary people (citizens or otherwise) in the appointment of Presidential Electors is a revocable grant from the respective state’s legislature.
Count IV has a factual predicate. The defendant must have interfered with rights of citzens secured by the constitution or laws of the United States. That factual predicate doesn’t seem to have been met here. Trump is not being accused with any interference with elections in DC. And in the places where he is accused of interference, the right of citizens to vote in presidential elections is established by state law, not the constitution or laws of the United States.
Correction: appointed by each state in the manner directed by the legislature of that state.
The electors legitimately chosen by the states had a federally protected right to have their votes counted without dilution. They, not the public in general, were the ones voting for president. The outcome of the election was 306-232 for Biden. Even a single vote change, 305-233, would be enough to violate the rights of electors.
It is clear to me that somebody conspired against the right of electors to have their votes counted accurately. I am unsure how far up and down the ranks of Republicans the conspiracy went. The indictment alleges that it went all the way to Trump.
The indictment avers at ¶7 that "The purpose of the conspiracy was to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election by using knowingly false claims of election fraud to obstruct the federal government function by which those results are collected, counted, and certified." ¶10.a. alleges:
If the prosecution shows Trump's agreement to the unlawful scheme, he is vicariously liable for the actions of all co-conspirators, and the government need not show that Trump personally solicited state legislators or election officials. (A § 241 conspiracy includes no overt act requirement.) That having been said, there is evidence of Trump's personal participation.
In a deposition for the House January 6 Investigating Committee, RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel reportedly testified that Trump was involved in John Eastman's fake elector scheme:
https://gazette.com/politics/rnc-coordinated-fake-electors-at-trumps-direct-request-ronna-mcdaniel/article_09199176-f1aa-11ec-9b55-a7c4eea025ea.html
But nothing in anything you said above so much as makes an argument that any of the rights of anyone involved was guaranteed by the federal constitution or federal law. The question isn’t whether Trump did something morally wrong or broke some other law. The question is whether he broke this specific statute. This statute only prohibits conspiring to violate rights secured by the federal constitution or law. In order for this statute to be violated, the rights involved have to be secured by the federal constitution or law.
Suppose it was customary for senators to hold referenda in their states to decide whether to vote yes or no on Supreme Court nominations. Fraud in the conduct or tallying of the referendum, however egregious, could never result in a violation of this statute, because there’s no constitutional or federal statutory right for ordinary citizens to vote for Supreme Court justices. It’s not a right secured by the constitution or laws of the United States. However often followed, It’s just a state practice. No recital of how terrible the fraud was or how directly the defendant participated in it could change this in the slightest. This essential element of the crime as written in the statute would always be lacking.
This situation is similar.
ReaderY, are you overlooking the Electoral Count Act as it existed prior to 2022? Federal law provides that if a state, under its established statutory procedure, has made a “final determination of any controversy or contest” relative to the presidential election in the state, and if that determination is completed under this procedure at least six days before the electors are to meet to vote, such determination is to be considered “conclusive” as to which electors were appointed on election day (3 U.S.C. §5). The governor of each state is required by federal law “as soon as practicable” after the “final ascertainment” of the appointment of the electors, or “as soon as practicable” after the “final determination of any controversy or contest” concerning such election under its statutory procedure for election contests, to send to the Archivist of the United States by registered mail and under state seal, “a certificate of such ascertainment of the electors appointed,” including the names and numbers of votes for each person for whose appointment as elector any votes were given (3 U.S.C. §6).
After the electors have voted in each state, they make and sign six certificates of their votes containing two distinct lists, one being the votes for President and the other the votes for Vice President. The law instructs the electors to attach to these lists a certificate furnished to them by the governor; to seal those certificates and to certify on them that these are all of the votes for President and Vice President; and then to send one certificate to the President of the Senate, and two certificates to the secretary of state of their state (one to be held subject to the order of the President of the Senate). On the day after their meeting, the electors are to forward by registered mail two of the certificates to the Archivist of the United States (one to be held subject to the order of the President of the Senate), and one to the federal judge in the district where the electors have assembled (3 U.S.C. §§9,10,11). At the first meeting of Congress, the Archivist of the United States is required to transmit to the two houses every certificate received from the governors of the states (3 U.S.C. §6).
The electoral votes are counted at a joint session of the Senate and the House of Representatives, meeting in the House chamber. (The United States Code refers to the event as a joint meeting; it also has been characterized in the Congressional Record as a joint convention.) The joint session convenes at 1:00 p.m. on that day. The President of the Senate is the presiding officer (3 U.S.C. §15). Under 3 U.S.C. §15, the President of the Senate opens and presents the certificates of the electoral votes of the states and the District of Columbia in alphabetical order.
The certificate, or an equivalent document, from each state and the District of Columbia then is to be read by tellers previously appointed from among the membership of the House and Senate. Before the joint session convenes, each chamber appoints two of its Members to be the tellers (the appointments are made by the presiding officers of the respective chambers, based on recommendations made to them by the leaders of the two major parties).
After the votes of each state and the District of Columbia have been read, the tellers record and count them. When this process has been completed, the presiding officer announces whether any candidates have received the required majority votes for President and Vice President. If so, that “announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States” (3 U.S.C. §15).
The properly selected electors, certified by the governors of their respective states, had the right protected by 3 U.S.C. §15 to have their votes properly counted.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32717/12#:~:text=Under%203%20U.S.C.,seal%2C%20and%20certify%20the%20certificates.
ReaderY, I read you as prepared to claim that there is no legitimate requirement for citizen voting in American constitutionalism, and hence no potential for criminal activity to prevent voting. Am I right about that?
Of course not; you don’t understand the issues. He’s talking about voting for president, not voting in general.
(I'm not saying I endorse his position; I'm saying you didn't even read it correctly.)
Nieporent, is it your view that as of today it would be legal in any state to hold a presidential election under rules which prevented all ordinary citizens from casting votes? If so, where does the power to prevent popular voting reside?
Yes. Your historical ignorance, despite your pretense at being a historian, continues to astound. Article II, Section 1. The Constitution does not require elections for president. State legislatures can simply appoint electors if they wish. Indeed, that's how it was done when the constitution was ratified. The states gradually turned to popular voting, with the last holdout — South Carolina — lasting until the Civil War.
(It is not properly described as a "power to prevent popular voting," though.)
Nieporent, my question was explicitly about today, not about ante-bellum America.
How many times will I have to repeat that I have never claimed to be a historian before you stop lying about that?
Are you of the mistaken belief that the provision of Article II, Section 1 delegating to state legislatures the power to choose electors has been amended at any time in the last 230 years?
It's true that the 12th amendment did alter the provision making the 2nd leading electoral winner the veep, and the 20th and 25th amendments did alter the provision dealing with vacancies in the office. But the second paragraph of A2, S1 remains intact:
Were you seriously unaware of this?
What I’m saying is even narrower than that. Congress could easily criminalize interfering with the Presidential Electors performing their functions, Congress counting their ballots, etc. It could pass a statute criminalizing interfering with the appointment of Presidential Electors. Far be it from me from saying that Congress can do nothing to ensure the integrity of the Presidential election process. I said nothing of the kind.
One outcome of this episode is that Congress might want to pass a statute specifically prohibiting interfering with the appointment of Presidential electors. The statute would have to be very carefully worded to ensure overzealous prosecutors can’t use it to go after every election worker who allows a signature the prosecutor thinks invalid or who violates some minor election detail.
All I am saying is that this specific, particular statute, the one Trump is accused of violating in Count IV, doesn’t appear to accomplish this. I didn’t object to Counts I, II, or III.
Does a claim the electors themselves have a right to vote survive Chiafolo v. Washington? It would appear Chiafolo soundly rejected the claim electors have any “right’ to vote. Rather, electors are mere ministerial functionaries with no rights at all, only a ministerial duty to mark certain pieces of paper exactly as instructed, upon pain of being summarily replaced, fined or imprisoned as criminals, or both.
What language from Chiafalo v. Washington, 591 U.S. ___, 140 S.Ct. 2316 (2020), are you relying upon? The Court there opined:
140 S.Ct. at 2320. No state is required to impose any such penalties. At the time of the decision, only 15 States imposed any kind of sanction on faithless electors. Id., at 2322 n.2.
Exactly. Any right to vote that an elector may have is secured entirely by state law. Most states provide for such a right, but as you say 15 states don’t. State law question. Nothing to do with federal law.
Your claim is that "electors are mere ministerial functionaries with no rights at all, only a ministerial duty to mark certain pieces of paper exactly as instructed, upon pain of being summarily replaced, fined or imprisoned as criminals, or both."
I am asking how you get that from Chiafalo.
Easy. Chiafolo upheld a criminal conviction of a Presidential Elector for not “voting” as instructed. He was instructed to vote for Hilary Clinton, he didn’t, he was prosecuted. That’s what Chiafolo was about.
Is it really your position that this is consistent with an actual constitutional right to vote? Are you really claiming that if the Washington State legislature had passed a similar law saying that if any elector in (say) a Senate election doesn’t vote for the Democratic candidate, that elector goes to jail, you’re saying that’s fine, that’s fully consistent with the right to vote for Senators secured by the US constitution, conviction affirmed, that’s OK? The outcome in the Supreme Court would and should be the same?
He tried to fraudulently have my vote and the votes of 81 million other Americans thrown out. Count IV is appropriate.
ReaderY: I was thinking about your point that election of Electors is a matter of state law (outside DC), and thus not a federal right. I don’t believe that is correct.
It’s true that the Constitution does not require elections for Presidential Electors, and they could be appointed by the Legislature or some authority designated by them. However, the reality is that every state provides by law for popular election of Presidential Electors.
IMO, that then implicates a federal right to vote. The US Constitution does extend the right to vote on certain bases in several amendments: Fifteenth (“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude”); Nineteenth (“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.”); Twenty-Fourth (“The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax.”); 26th (“The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.”)
Note that in each case, the amendment recites the “right of citizens of the United States,” and in the case of the 24th, specifically enumerates the right to vote for Presidential Electors despite failure to pay a poll tax.
I think that these imply that there is a federal right to vote in any election that a state determines to hold for that position. By analogy, a township might decide that the position of dog-catcher should be elected, or appointed by the mayor or the town council. If they choose the latter course, then, of course, no one has the right to vote for dog-catcher. But if the township chooses to make it an elected position, then they could not exclude women, or blacks, or persons 18-21, or require a poll tax. And that is a federal right – if the town tried it, there would be a claim of abridgment of a federal right.
Same, IMO, applies here. A state could, in theory, decide not to have elections for Presidential Electors. But, having decided to do so, the US Constitution then creates a right to vote for every citizen.
(You have something analogous in Takings Clause law. State law determines what is a property right, but once there is a property right under state law, the Fifth Amendment then creates federal Takings rights.)
BTW, if you think the dog-catcher analogy is silly, substitute State Attorney General. In some states, the position is elected, in others appointed. Neither option offends the US Constitution. But if a state is going to make it an elected position, then there is a federal right to vote for that, and a state could not deny it to a citizen on any of the bases in the four amendments I cited.
It’s a good analogy. If Trump had tried to interfere with black people from voting for attorney general, he would be guilty of violating the statute, which protects the federally-guaranteed right to be free from racial discrimination in popular elections. But if he had tried to get the state legislature to appoint the attorney general, even if he made false accusations of election fraud in doing so, he wouldn’t be.
Denial of voting on the basis of race is federally proscribed, it’s race discrimination. But denial of voting in its entirety isn’t, because a state needn’t elect its attorney general, there needn’t be any voting at all.
I can’t discriminate on the basis of race in hiring. But I have no obligation to have any employees. If I don’t hire anybody at all, I’ve violated nobody’s right to be employed by me.
Same here.
Chiafolo reaffirmed a state legislature’s right to appoint the electors itself if it wanted to. It’s dicta. But it’s there.
The situation is similar to the 21st Amendment. The Amendment’s text gives states the power to set whatever liquor laws they want. But this power isn’t absolute. A state can’t have whites-only bars, for example. And yet, it’s pretty clear a state could outlaw liquor entirely if it wanted to, even though no state currently does. Plenty of towns and counties still do. Local option is probably the norm. But a state needn’t delegate the decision to localities. Doing this is just a custom, not constitutionally enshrined.
The situation here is similar. The power isn’t absolute. A state couldn’t have a whites-only election to appoint its electors. If it has a popular election, it has to meet certain requirements. But a legislature could nonetheless appoint the electors itself, or have judges do it or some commission do it. The fact no legislature currently does this is only a custom.
I don’t think a state can have a sham popular election. But it could have an advisory one. A state could provide that it will hold a popular election, and then its legislature will meet and decide whether to accept the results or appoint the electors itself, and it can base who actually gets appointed on what it votes to do. It can do this as long as it specifies this procedure in advance.
Try telling that to Bush v Gore.
The problem with this indictment is not the law as much as it is the facts.
* Fake electors. There was no trickery or fraud in the creation of the alternate elector count. Much of the process of creating the electors was televised. The creators were open that they were creating a set of alternate electors. They never tried to destroy the official electoral count or forge signatures or trick anyone into thinking that that the first set of electors no longer existed or had been thrown out and replaced by this one. The alternate electors were an integral part of the legal strategy because there needed to be a remedy if courts found issues with the elections -- another count that could be used to replace the original count.
* Pressuring Georgia election official. Trump asked the Georgia election official to "find" votes. Find means that votes were lost and need to be recovered. That's not illegal. Finding validly cast votes is fully legal and actually required. He didn't say "manufacture" votes. His disagreements with that Georgia official were around whether such votes existed not a request to create fake votes.
* Pressuring Pence. Trump berated Pence privately and publicly not to certify results. Whether Pence had the authority not to certify is a legal question. Were the democrats who have asked the VP not to certify in previous elections (eg. 2004, 2016) breaking the law or just, again, operating on a wacko interpretation of the law?
The folks who support the indictment want to read all Trump's actions as an attempt to "overthrow" the results of the election using extra-legal means, but I think a better way to read Trump's actions is that they were all part of an attempt to use legal means to change the results of the election, similar to a person challenging a call in sports and/or arguing with an ump/referee. His "co-conspirators" were all lawyers. Their theories were wacko and should have been all rejected, but it should not be criminal to attempt to take action based on a wacko legal theory.
What would true extra-legal means have looked like? Here are some examples:
* Threatening Pence or state election officials with violence blackmail, or using bribery. The rioters used violence, but the indictment does not point to any facts that directly link Trump to the violence -- e.g paying for violence, or supplying weapons.
* Asking the Georgia official to manufacture votes. Find does not equal manufacture.
* Actually creating false ballots and trying to sneak them into the election offices.
What Trump and his team did is engage is tactics to implement a legal theory. The legal theory was that Pence would not certify some states. They would then ask those state legislatures and/or courts to decide to use the alternate slate of electors. Again, a nutty theory, but not illegal. And thankfully, like most nutty theories, it got stopped -- Pence certified.
Well besides your facts and well stated case what else do you have?
A nutty legal theory whose goal is to change the outcome of an election when there is no evidence the outcome is in doubt is an attempt to steal the election.
No more so than John Podesta's request to have intelligence agencies brief electors in 2016.
That was bad, but it was the only foray by the Clinton campaign. Had it been combined with other actions, especially after the electors voted, then there would be a similar case against her.
It was bad.
It was also a petition for the redress of grievances?
As an isolated action, perhaps. But, combine it with pressure on a state to create fake electors because Russian interference cost Clinton the election, pressure on the DOJ to announce that Russian interference cost Clinton the election, and pressure on Biden to declare Clinton the winner - and you have an attempt to steal the election.
Except that they submitted the fake elector documents to the National Archives, claiming they were the true electors. That is a cut and dry crime, one that Trump lead.
As I recall, the forms were unsigned.
Did these forms actually have forged signatures?
The signatures were real, the people signing them were falsely claiming to be legal electors.
You recall incorrectly!
Sio they actually forged the signatures of state election officials?
No you dumbass. They signed their names as the duly appointed electors. They were not the duly appointed electors.
Trump called on the rioters to assemble in Washington on January, 6, a date selected for its significance with regard to transition of power. When they arrived armed, Trump exhorted them, targeted them at Pence, and set them marching. He did these things publicly. Had such acts of leadership and control been done privately, as they would typically have been done in a former age of military-style maneuver, they would have been taken as proof of Trump’s leadership of a treasonous warlike plot to overturn the Constitution.
Instead of arguing about the content of speech, as you would have it, the argument would have been about the existence of messages or orders to direct the action. The fact that technology to lead publicly is now available, and Trump used it, does nothing to change the character of what he did. Stop pretending. Nobody believes your tortured justifications for Trump’s conduct, not even his supporters. They approved of that conduct because they thought it would get them what they wanted, and what they wanted was to thwart illegally the transfer of power.
There were no orders to riot
“The folks who support the indictment want to read all Trump’s actions as an attempt to “overthrow” the results of the election using extra-legal means, but I think a better way to read Trump’s actions is that they were all part of an attempt to use legal means to change the results of the election, similar to a person challenging a call in sports and/or arguing with an ump/referee. His “co-conspirators” were all lawyers.“
You know it’s funny, I happen to have one of those lawyers right here:
“There’s actually a provision in the Declaration of Independence that a people will suffer abuses while they remain sufferable, tolerable while they remain tolerable. At some point abuses become so intolerable that it becomes not only their right but their duty to alter or abolish the existing government.”
That was co-conspirator 2, by the way. Do you read “abolish” to mean “challenge the election by legal means” in this context? I don’t.
In Georgia, they lied to someone who stumbled into the meeting room in which they were conspiring (claiming it was an "educational presentation"), then posted guards at the door to prevent another stumbler.
Other than that, though . . . nah, still not a good comment.
That's one theory, that I could see someone who just fell off a turnip truck might believe. But what Trump meant represents a jury question, not something you can just declare.
Putting on my realpolitik hat, it is clear that a Constitutional crisis would benefit the odd shadow-government arrangement we currently find ourselves in. A continuous national crisis could be a feature, not a bug.
I suspect that Joe Biden is not actually serving as our chief executive. It may be that ex-President Obama is calling the shots behind the scenes. If a journalist were to park outside of Mr. Obama’s home in Kalorama in DC and note who comes and goes, I wonder what players would emerge?
No one knows who comes and goes, though, because no journalist will print anything about what Obama does outside of being a celebrity. “Happy Birthday, Mr. President!” is what we get from the national press.
But unlike other past Presidents, Obama lives right here, permanently. He appears to be in daily contact and discussions. His ex-staffers fill all the key White House posts. On holidays and birthdays he makes an appearance at his vacation home on Martha’s Vineyard, but he lives — and, I suspect, is still working every day — right here in DC.
A national crisis would be an excellent cover for this arrangement, if indeed that is how things actually are. Isn’t it odd that somehow the country has never experienced a moment of peace since 2016? We lurch from one crisis to the next, the context changes, but the state of excited alarm and near-panic never fades. As soon as the rush fades on one, the next is flogged relentlessly by the media.
We know the government is manipulating the news and the Internet’s big tech firms. But more than being manipulated and censored, I have a sneaking suspicion that we are being corralled. Driven.
It’s not a pleasant thought.
You're creating your own sense of national crisis out of whole cloth with this theory. You must be on edge, paranoid, certain that the truth is being kept from you while at the same time it seems blindingly obvious, so even though there's no actual national crisis, you feel like there is one, constantly, endlessly, therefore you attribute that sense to the hidden/obvious actions people about whom you have already invented this theory. Thus it keeps itself fed.
It may be that it’s the lizard people that are calling the shots behind the scenes! You haven’t proved it’s not the lizard people.
Give it a try … you might spot the lizard people! Or maybe Obama knows how to use a phone, and the lizard people are clever enough to avoid you.
“realpolitik hat“
Let me guess… it’s made of tinfoil
Yes, and please don't tell him it's not actually made of tin.
First, is there any motion that DJT's lawyers can file that can have this indictment dismissed? No. If the prosecutors could have picked a judge from the D.C. federal circuit bench to try this case, she's the one they would have chosen.
Second, what are the chances that a randomly-chosen jury in D.C. will find Trump not guilty on all counts? At the trace level, maybe less. Biden won the District with 92% of the vote, and the prosecutors will automatically bounce any juror on voir dire who lives in Ward 3, the only section of the city where a Trump fan might be found.
I make these comments after having spent my professional life trying cases in the local and federal courts of the District. Maybe DJT will find some solace on appeal, but I doubt that as well. He could very well be looking at spending the remainder of his life either in a federal penitentiary or, because of his unique situation, under permanent house arrest with a U.S. marshal at every entrance to his residence.
What might this do to an already fractured country? No one knows, which is why I think the better course of action might have been to delay or defer altogether such obvious prosecutorial zeal. There was never any serious chance that the republic was going to be overthrown by this delusional clown. If we can survive Nixon, Clinton, and Biden's handlers, we can survive Orange Man.
Federal rule of criminal procedure 12(b)(3)(B)(v) allows a pretrial motion to dismiss the indictment for “failure to state an offense”. If I were Trump’s lawyer I would throw that one at the wall and see if it sticks. I wouldn’t expect to win. Under my state’s rule there is no recourse if the judge erroneously denies the motion. Review on appeal is be based on the evidence at trial rather than the facts alleged in the indictment.
The rules also allow a motion to dismiss for “selective or vindictive prosecution”. Trump thinks he is a victim of this.
Vindictive prosecution may be a stronger claim for Trump than selective prosecution.
In United States v. Armstrong, 517 U.S. 456, 464 (1996), the Supreme Court emphasized that "the presumption of regularity" applies to "prosecutorial decisions and, in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, courts presume that [prosecutors] have properly discharged their official duties .... [S]o long as the prosecutor has probable cause to believe that the accused committed an offense defined by statute, the decision whether or not to prosecute ... generally rests entirely in his discretion." In order to prove a selective-prosecution claim, the claimant must demonstrate that the prosecutorial policy had a discriminatory effect and was motivated by a discriminatory purpose. Id., at 457.
A defendant claiming selective prosecution must show that: (1) he was "singled out for prosecution from among others similarly situated" and (2) "the prosecution was improperly motivated, i.e. , based on race, religion or another arbitrary classification." Branch Ministries v. Rossotti, 211 F.3d 137, 144 (D.C. Cir. 2000). "Defendants are similarly situated" for purposes of a selective enforcement claim "when their circumstances present no distinguishable legitimate prosecutorial factors that might justify making different prosecutorial decisions with respect to them." United States v. Stone, 394 F.Supp.3d 1, 31 (D.D.C. 2019).
An individual may be similarly situated if he:
Stone, 394 F.Supp.3d at 31, quoting United States v. Smith, 231 F.3d 800, 810 (11th Cir. 2000).
The burden to show that Donald Trump is "similarly situated" to others who have not been prosecuted is insurmountable. (I am unaware of anyone not named Yick Wo who has successfully obtained relief from a criminal charge or conviction upon a claim of selective prosecution.)
Vindictive prosecution may be a more fruitful area of inquiry for Trump. While selective prosecution is based on the equal protection component of the Fifth Amendment Due Process clause, vindictive prosecution is a Due Process violation without regard to how other criminal defendants have been treated.
"Prosecutorial vindictiveness" is a term of art with a precise and limited meaning. The term refers to a situation in which the government acts against a defendant in response to the defendant's prior exercise of constitutional or statutory rights. United States v. Goodwin, 457 U.S. 368, 372 (1982); United States v. Meyer, 810 F.2d 1242, 1245 (D.C. Cir. 1987), reh'g granted and opinion vacated, 816 F.2d 695 (D.C. Cir.), reh'g denied and opinion reinstated, 824 F.2d 1240 (D.C. Cir. 1987).
The Supreme Court has established two ways in which a defendant may demonstrate prosecutorial vindictiveness. First, a defendant may show "actual vindictiveness" — that is, he may prove through objective evidence that a prosecutor acted in order to punish him for standing on his legal rights. See Goodwin, 457 U.S. at 384 n.19. This showing is, of course, exceedingly difficult to make. Second, a defendant may in certain circumstances rely on a presumption of vindictiveness: when the facts indicate "a realistic likelihood of `vindictiveness,'" a presumption will arise obliging the government to come forward with objective evidence justifying the prosecutorial action. If the government produces such evidence, the defendant's only hope is to prove that the justification is pretextual and that actual vindictiveness has occurred. Meyer, 810 F.2d at 1245; United States v. Safavian, 649 F.3d 688, 602 (D.C. Cir. 2011).
If Trump were to produce evidence that the instant prosecution was brought to punish his for declaring his candidacy for president, he might be entitled to a hearing where the DOJ would be obliged to come forward with objective evidence justifying the prosecutorial action.
To get the benefit of the presumption of vindictiveness, a defendant must show the prosecutor's action was "more likely than not" attributable to vindictiveness. Safavian, 649 F.3d at 693. To rebut the presumption, the government's burden is "admittedly minimal—any objective evidence justifying the prosecutor's actions will suffice." If the government meets this burden, the defendant cannot prevail unless he proves that the government's justification was pretextual. Safavian, at 694; United States v. Meadows, 867 F.3d 1305, 1312 (D.C. Cir. 2017).
If you can't do the time...
One of the important principles of criminal law is the concept of "notice", that is, it should be clear that what you are doing is a violation of a statute. It is not an exercise for prosecutors to use their creativity to twist and strain language. Trump committed these alleged "crimes" openly and on the advice of counsel. If a Trump-hater like Andy McCarthy, as well as cadres of other attorneys, sees this deficiency with the indictment, maybe there is one.
An actual libertarian would be appalled at this indictment, which reads like an MSNBC editorial. But, of course, Somin is not an actual libertarian, but an unprincipled fraud. He, like so many deadweight effete elitists in this country have decided that no price is too high to pay to destroy Trump. That price will be the dissolution of the Republic. No free nation can long endure when half the population believes (correctly in my opinion) that the "justice system" operates with a flagrant double standard, trying to destroy the Regime's enemies, while looking the other way at the flagrant wrongdoing of its friends.
But, rejoice Trump-haters! As it says in Luke 22:53, this is your hour.
All of the legal theories behind the indictment are supported by Supreme Court precedent, some going back over 100 years. Your real beef is with SCOTUS, not the prosecutors. A citizen is presumed to have "notice" of those expansive decisions. Which is a legal fiction, but one that is necessary in any legal system.
Trump went out of his way to choose counsel that would advise him to commit these crimes. "Just following orders" has long been known not to exonerate anyone, but to view as exoneration the claim that "I was just listening to the counsel whom I chose because they gave me the advice I wanted" would require biblical levels of credulity.
These were not crimes.
A jury of his peers are going to make that determination
The charges must be dismissed because the alleged acts were not crimes.
Suppose, Michael Ejercito, that you are writing a motion to dismiss the indictment against Donald Trump because the conduct averred in the indictment does not constitute any criminal offense.
What particular legal authorities would you cite? Please cite the style of the appropriate case(s) and the number(s) of the applicable statute(s).
Our friend Michael is a bit of a coward. Every time he’s challenged to back up his assertions with facts and law, he crawls back into his hole. The silence is deafening.
That is unfortunately true of many of the commenters on these threads.
Still waiting, Michael. What authorit(ies) would you cite?
Which of the Volokh Conspirators, in your judgment, is more libertarian than Prof. Somin?
Which of the Volokh Conspirators, in your judgment, is a libertarian or anything close to a libertarian?
Do you consider the Volokh Conspiracy's express claim that it is "Often Libertarian" (without mentioning conservatism or polemical right-wingery) to be accurate? It is principled? Is it a fraud?
Thank you.
An actual Trump supporter would be appalled at this indictment
FTFY
There seems to be a trend of right-wingers, particularly of the Trumpenproletariat kind, insisting that certain crimes, entirely coincidentally the ones that Trump is accused of, shouldn't really be crimes because reasons. Libertarians aren't anarchists.
(moved)
Oh the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments is fun to behold. But, but, but… Hillary! LOL!
To those of you muttering darkly of revolution: in about 10 years you’re going to feel really silly about stanning for this orange goon buffoon.
Lots of new screen names breezing in today! The huckleberry bat signal must have gone out.
Thanks for linking to these posts.
In ten years time this will all have been forgotten, like all the warmongers and pro-torturers after 9-11 suddenly complaining about foreign wars and their civil liberties.
I have not forgotten the torture team or the warmongers. Part of it was that they were overmatched by events; part of it was substandard character.
In ten years time this will all have been forgotten,
I'm not so sure this time isn't different. It's really plowing some deep cultural furrows in the right, from evangelicals to business ghouls to purely tribal tools.
I should have put forgotten in inverted commas.
Nige : “In ten years time this will all have been forgotten”
Whatever the time frame, today’s Right is a nonstop disaster zone. Trump was a drag on the GOP in 2020, but they doubled-down. Trump was a drag on the party in 2022, but they doubled-down. Trump will be a drag on the party in 2024, so what will they do?
The only serious attempt to replace their grifter huckster buffoon resulted in yet another grifting huckster, only this one particularly petty, small, and mean.
Meanwhile, the entire movement is an empty nihilistic shell, addicted to cartoon theatrics, gimmicky sideshows and phony issues. Ten years from now everyone will wonder how half the country got hysterical about CRT or trans people. It will seem no less crazy than the satanic daycare frenzy.
People have been predicting the Right’s fever storm will break for many years, but the craziness has just intensified. This is partially because the Right is now more an entertainment business than a political movement. As long as its consumer base has entertainment deliverables to cheer or jeer, failure is acceptable.
But that’s not sustainable. Sooner or later the party will have to rejoin the real world or make way for a replacment. Political parties have died in this country before, and for less cause than the Right's descent into freakshow lunacy.
Sorry Ilya, this is a political show trial. One can of course rationalize a show trial as a matter of law, and convince oneself there are honest brokers prosecuting the matter, but it’s absurd.
Correct, and no reasonable person thinks otherwise. The fact that the case was assigned to Chutkan or whatever that buffoon's name is says it all.
What does it say that Trump's other federal case was assigned to Aileen Cannon?
Roberts' joke of a judiciary gets it right by accident once in a while.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/us/leron-liggins-conviction-vacated-judge-comment/index.html
Let's see if the appellate courts vacate every J6 defendant who appeared before Beryl Howell, Tanya Chutkan, Boasberg, Amit Mehta, Emmet Sullivan or any of the other blatantly biased Democrat Party judges on the D.C. court.
It's been pretty good watching the straw-grasping.
First it was free speech. Until people read the indictment.
Then it was that fraud requires money. Until actual lawyers weighed in.
What will it be next??
Y’all defend your guys the same way.
First it didn’t happen.
Then it happened but it wasn’t material.
Finally, it happened but it was justified.
Trump did a lot of awful stuff. And the strongest one to me is yet to come. He’s got big trouble in Georgia, where he’s on tape telling them how many votes to find. (Of course, the right will borrow the left’s playbook and say that he was simply and innocently requesting).
But anyway, don’t sit on the glass porch of your glass house and throw rocks at other people.
It's a weird balancing act: if the allegations against Trump are true, then allegations against Biden must also be true, therefore defending Biden is the same as defending Trump. Centrism!
The funny thing about the allegations about Biden is that Trump and Kusher did exponentially worse deals with the Saudis and the quid pro quo is so obvious—they sanctioned Qatar out of left field in 2017 even surprising their Secretary of State who spent huge amounts of time and money working with the Qatari as CEO of XOM…and then once Trump lost they quickly wrapped everything up and then Trump and Kushner both made deals with Saudi Arabia in the billions of dollars…you don’t even need a smoking gun because it’s all so brazen and obvious. Oh, and Neal Bush is very open about being on China’s payroll for 25 years…nothing to see here! ????
You know how I said you claim to be better than everyone?
This is an example. Stay on topic, and don't drag in your bullshit hypotheticals so you can enjoy your bothsidesism that is as blind and zealous as any partisan.
Sure. I admit I get aggravated when you accuse the guys in the right of doing something that you yourself do. As I get aggravated by them when they do it. Not a big deal.
Looks like Georgia is teeing up an announcement for mid-week this week so we’re about to be on the same side for a bit.
I get you think that I am like BCD or AL, and that Biden is like Trump.
You are flat wrong about all of that, equating things and comments that are not equal. Mostly by believing things about Biden that have been explained many times by many people to be incorrect as to law and facts.
That's pretty standard stuff. But you don't just bring up your Biden/Dems/posters that aren't you nonsense when they are relevant, you do it in all the Trump threads.
It's like a poster who can't stop bringing up abortion is murdering babies in every thread. You'd hate that; consider that you are doing the same thing for your own ideological hobby horse and focus.
Lol. My comment here wasn’t about Biden stuff, I didn’t actually bring any of it up. It was directed at you for your specific hypocrisy.
And my other tangential mention of it was criticizing the right for doing it too. Both now as what you pointed out and anticipating them doing it when Georgia charges.
You’re so reactionary to having your worldview (and your boy Joe) criticized. There is actually not a single criticism of Biden in my original response. None.
You are so fucking sensitive about pushback that you are incapable of responding to what someone actually said. Everyone sees it.
This is my last word on this today. I’m not going to booster with a string of posts about something that you aren’t apparently capable of understanding. And I’m not going to waste any more time correcting your twisting of my words because you really don’t care anyway.
More like a bunch of liberals hate the facts, so they put out misinformation to correct "misconceptions".
Any just person can see what is happening to Trump is ridiculous - and this is someone who was a NeverTrumper in 2016 and will vote for DeSantis in 2024.
So you were right not to vote for Trump. Trump is my perfect candidate on paper because I’m a NeverBush Republican…but he seemed like a con man that didn’t have a solid grasp of the issues. First he governed like Jeb! and now he’s been exposed as a criminal…so I was correct not to vote for him.
At the rate DeSantis is fading, he might not be on your ballot.
More like DeSoros.
This is a momentous occasion. This will be the first political show trial in American history. A political hack judge will rule for the government on all its motions and against the defendant, keeping out any possibly exculpatory evidence. She will place a gag order on Trump, because, as most people recognize, the main purpose of this trial (and the others stacked with it) is to guarantee a Democrat victory in the 2024 election by draining Trump's time and resources so he cannot campaign. Sending him to the gulag for the rest of his life would just be gravy.
Jack Beermann & Gary Lawson, The Electoral Count Mess: The Electoral Count Act of 1887 is Unconstitutional, and other Fun Facts (Plus a Few Random Academic Speculations) about Counting Electoral Votes, 16 FIU L. Rev. 297, 307 (2022).
I don't know if their interpretation of the Constitution is correct or not, but I do know that, per this indictment, that it is dangerous illegal to suggest it, and I trust these two conspirators will be indicted shortly.
In the 1960 presidential election, Sen. John F. Kennedy narrowly defeated Vice President Richard Nixon. Nixon did win the state of Hawaii. The Kennedy campaign, however, anticipating a potential reversal of the final count in Hawaii and nationwide, appointed a set of alternate electors, who dutifully cast their votes and forwarded them to Washington. No one at the time seemed to believe this was criminal behavior. Of course, in those days, the Justice Department did not have keen minds like Merrick Garland and Jack Smith to direct it.
My advice—join the Democratic Party. RepooplicKKKunts are the Washington Generals of politics!
Was there a riot with people smashing glass to get into the chambers of Congress in 1960? I’d like a link to that. Somehow Life magazine didn’t have photographers there.
In 1960, Hawaii had two slates of electors because the original count, which was still official when the Republican slate voted, favored Nixon; a partial recount at that time showed Kennedy ahead, and the Democratic slate voted to preserve the issue and was eventually vindicated when the final recount showed Kennedy had won. Republicans had the argument that only the Republican slate met the "safe harbor" condition (the condition that ended the Florida recount in 2000); Democrats had the argument that their slate reflected that Kennedy actually won, even if that was determined after the safe harbor deadline. The 3 electoral votes of Hawaii were completely irrelevant to the final outcome, and Nixon (along with the Republicans who did not object) was right to be gracious about it -- his only chances of overturning the election result were in Texas and Illinois.
That situation is the same as for the fake electors who were careful enough to specify that their votes were contingent on a determination that Trump actually won their state, for which no evidence has ever appeared in any contested state.
As to Beermann and Lawson, wrong legal opinions are not criminal, but committing crimes to put them into action will get you into trouble.
Do you have the exact language of what the fake electors signed?
There are two things different about Hawaii: 1) the recount provided a reasonable expectation of a different outcome whereas no evidence supports a different outcome in 2020 and 2) a judge ordered that the recount continue after the safe harbor and even after the electors votes lending legal credence to the alternate electors whereas no court order exists in 2020 (i.e., Trump made up shit).
I do not know, beyond what I have seen reported; e.g.,
https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-joe-biden-presidential-elections-election-2020-electoral-college-311f88768b65f7196f52a4757dc162e4
Thank you, Professor Somin - appreciate the analysis of the charges and underlying statutes. The former President will have arguments to make, some of them reasonable - and a jury will decide their merit. He may prevail.
His real problem, however, is in what's likely to come out of the Georgia investigation.
"And there’s nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you’ve recalculated." After the recounts, not sure that's a winning strategy. I bet Meadows dropped a turd when he heard that.
"So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state." In other words, just make stuff up so I can win.
The man is a walking, talking, self-inflicted wound.
Remember right after he entered the race he made those remarks about McCain?? He’s never suffered any consequences for all of his crazy behavior because in 2020 he received a record amount of votes…so he didn’t really “lose” because he more or less maxed out the GOP vote…it would be like saying Malone and Stockton are losers because they couldn’t beat Jordan’s Bulls.
Raffensperger politely but firmly rejected Trump's entreaties, standing by Georgia's election results and repeatedly insisting Trump had been given false information about voter fraud.
“Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong,” he said.
Trump's response was a threat :
“You know what they did and you’re not reporting it,” the president said during the call. “You know, that’s a criminal — that’s a criminal offense. And you know, you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That’s a big risk.”
What Trump was saying to Rafensburger is that the latter's actions were a criminal offense.
That is not extortion by any reasonable interpretation.
Saying someone is committing a “crime” because he refused to conjure-up “voting fraud” where it doesn’t exist is definitely a threat. Rafensburger repeatedly told Trump there was no evidence of fraud beyond a tiny handful of votes. But Trump still insisted he produce nonexistent votes, find nonexistent fraud, or face charges over nonexistent crimes.
Trump will be indicted in Georgia and found guilty when tried. And not just for his crude Godfather shtick on the Rafensburger call. Trump also called Gov Kemp, then-House Speaker David Ralston, Attorney General Chris Carr and the top investigator in the secretary of state’s office.
Do you think his huckster pitch was any more subtle with them? And how do you see the propriety of president and candidate personally phoning the lead investigator inside the secretary of state’s office? And apparently the Georgia investigators have been taking evidence of Trump’s attempts to impede certification or hustle fraudulent votes in other states. If allowed in the trial, that will be one more nail in the coffin….
Notably, you have to build guilt right into your description of what happened, "refused to conjure-up vote fraud", not "asked that he be permitted to look for vote fraud".
I think the weakest part of this has always been the conviction that you can turn a request to look at the voting records into an obvious demand to fabricate votes, just by putting sneer quotes around the word, "find". I am SO tired of that rhetorical trick everybody does.
Not that any of this matters: Pile enough charges on one guy and you're bound to get a conviction for something. And hold a trial in DC for somebody like Trump, who only got 5% of the vote in DC, and is widely hated by Democrats, and a conviction is practically guaranteed.
So I take it as a given that Trump is going to end up convicted, probably on multiple charges.
Brett,
(1) You ignore the threat from Trump that Rafensburger faced criminal charges if he didn’t find fraud that Rafensburger repeatedly told Trump didn’t exist.
(2) You ignore the incitement from Trump that Rafensburger just say “you know, um, that you’ve recalculated” after Rafensburger told Trump there was no grounds for doing so.
(3) You ignore the propriety of these appeals altogether. There is a procedure for challenging the vote count and it doesn’t include threats, incitement and pleading phone calls to the Governor, House Speaker, Attorney General, Secretary of State, and the top investigator in the secretary of state’s office. Do you think that last call was authorized by Rafensburger?
(4) And what does “asked that he be permitted to look for vote fraud” even mean? You’re so committed to defending Trump’s crimes you can’t even manage a coherent sentence. Who’s the “he” here? Rafensburger was already “allowed” to look for the precise number of votes to steal the state for Trump. Permission wasn’t an issue; the fact that the votes didn’t exist was.
That’s what Rafensburger told Trump over and over.
That is not extortion, not by any means.
Merely threatening legal action arising from the act/inaction in question can not be extortion.
Under what circumstances would threatening to call the police constitute extortion?
Under what circumstances would threatening a lawsuit constitute extortion?
I recall how your side twisted the law against Rick Perry back in 2014!
Perhaps, perhaps not. But Threatening illegal action definitely can be. Threatening to prosecute someone for a non-crime if they won't give you something you have no entitlement to absolutely is extortion.
If there were no basis for doing so. "I'm going to call the police and falsely accuse you of rape if don't give me $50,000" would absolutely be extortion.
Extortion is the key word here. Merely telling someone to do something for you because failure to do so would be a criminal offense is not extortion by any means.
The threat, "You'll hear from my attorney," is not extortion either.
Right, and "Nice place you've got here; shame if anything were to happen to it. If you pay me $1,000 a month, I'll keep an eye out to make sure nothing happens" isn't extortion.
How is this a problem?
How is this a problem?, Michael Ejercito says, after another round polishing Trump’s shoe leather with his tongue.
Normal people see things different. “Just say you’ve recalculated” doesn’t look very honest after the Georgia Secretary of State has just repeatedly insisted there were no problems with the vote count. It looks like someone inciting fraud. You can’t see that because you’re a cult freak.
Or take Trump’s meeting with the acting head of DOJ, Jefferey Rosen. The objective there was to pressure Rosen to send a letter to targeted states asking they delay certification. The reason given in the letters? A DOJ investigation into voting fraud that didn’t exist. That Trump was told didn’t exist. But still he demanded the letters go out with the fake claim, backing down only when threatened by mass resignations at Justice. This is what he told Rosen :
“Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican Congressmen”
Just like his message to Rafensburger : Lie for me so I have political cover to steal this election. No doubt you can claim the demand to Rosen was harmless too, Michael Ejercito.
Right after you give Trump’s shoes a bit more polishing….
Trump had the legal authority to order an investigation and to send that letter.
If you're going to go with "The president is a king, and can do whatever he wants without being charged with crimes," then there's no point in continuing with the discussion.
It does seem strange that Jack Smith would need to claim that Trump knew that there was no election fraud.
If there was a law against presenting fake electors (I do not, for the purposes of this comment, argue one way or the other if federal law does in fact criminalize this), it would be strange if it permitted people to do so if they honestly believed the election was stolen.
Perjury laws, after all, do not excuse people who truly believe that the defendant on trial was guilty/innocent.
Some of the statutes under which he's charged require that he "corruptly" do things. The fact that he knew the basis for his actions was a lie establishes that element. A sincere belief that he was justified could possibly be a defense.
Yeah, they really do.
The thing is, it is impossible for Trump to know he lost in 2020. Just as it is impossible for him to know he won. It is possible that the election was stolen.
Trump may have made statements that indicate that he thought he had lost. But that's just him saying stuff. It has no bearing on the actual reality of the situation and doesn't mean he can't later change his mind.
I believe I saw somewhere that the standard for mens rea for these charges encompasses reckless disregard for the truth, not only intent.
If that's the case, all this 'Trump was told and ignored' seem material and damming by themselves.
Problem is, no one has access to the truth. All we have is imperfect, incomplete information, almost all of which we get by way of many other people, all with their own biases and agendas.
Getting epistemological is not going to track well in a court of law.
Going to original source, Section 910: KNOWINGLY AND WILLFULLY of the DOJ Criminal Resource Manual, citing relevant precedent, addresses knowingly false statements [emphasis added]:
TL;DR version:
• Speech isn’t protected “when the defendant makes a false material statement."”
• Acting “with a conscious purpose to avoid learning the truth” = "knowledge of falsity.”
Nicely done, and thanks!
Thanks, spread it around.
It amazes me that media accounts so often include statements like (from a WaPo article yesterday)...
...without acknowledging the context of noting that doesn't equate to a requirement to know what Trump really believes deep in his shriveled little heart.
When you are making a case that Trump was trying to steal the election but are not presenting actual evidence, you've lost me.
Here's one fact-check on Somin's article:
What Ilya Somin writes: Additional evidence on that point comes from his Attorney General, William Barr, who discussed the election with Trump extensively at the time, and recalls that "he knew well he lost the election."
Could Somin have just grabbed this line from the CNN headline:
"Exclusive: Barr obliterates Trump’s defense: ‘He knew well that he had lost the election’"?
The Barr quotation that CNN actually posted in their article: [Barr] added: “At first I wasn’t sure, but I have come to believe he knew well he had lost the election.”
This dishonesty ruins credibility for Somin, Reason, and CNN. They deserve to be scorned.
First-hand testimony under oath is “actual evidence.” Both Barr and Pence have stated they will obey a subpoena and testify under oath of their personal knowledge relevant to Trump’s knowledge of falsity.
I just noted that acting “with a conscious purpose to avoid learning the truth” = “knowledge of falsity.” And that principle applies whether one is testifying in court per the standards of DOJ Criminal Resource Manual, or just commenting on a legal blog.
One might even say of such people, They deserve to be scorned.
As I am unskilled in legal sleuthing, please point me to "the truth", as I have not seen the convincing evidence that the concerns about election fraud have been laid to rest by factual findings.
Full, verifiable, "factual findings" have been available for more than a a year. Again, "A defendant [or simple blog commenter] is not relieved of the consequences of a material misrepresentation by lack of knowledge when the means of ascertaining truthfulness are available.
To start, have you read the indictment? It's less than 50 double-spaced pages and the language is not difficult. It includes a section laying out the primary Trump claim in each of the contested swing states, and provides citations to original sources investigating, holding information, or issuing trial results addressing each claim. So start there.
Further, studies with cites to original sources are widely available. From the conservative point of view, go to lostnotstolen [dot] org:
On the landing page is a link to the pdf of the report, which, to give you a head start, includes:
WaPo’s Philip Bump, in a July 2022 article on the Lost, Not Stolen project may have described it best [emphasis added]:
Everybody's always unsure before they're sure.
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