The Volokh Conspiracy
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Tennessee Ban on Sexual-Identity-Related Medical Procedures for Minors Is Likely Constitutional,
a Sixth Circuit panel concludes (by a 2-1 vote) in staying an injunction against the law pending appeal.
[UPDATE: I hadn't realized that Jonathan Adler had posted about this before me; see his post and its comments here.]
From L.W. v. Skrmetti, decided today by the Sixth Circuit, in an opinion by Judge Jeffrey Sutton joined by Judge Amul Thapar:
Tennessee enacted a law that prohibits healthcare providers from performing gender-affirming surgeries and administering hormones or puberty blockers to transgender minors. After determining that the law likely violated the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses, the district court facially enjoined the law's enforcement as to hormones and puberty blockers and applied the injunction to all people in the State. Tennessee appealed and moved for an emergency stay of the district court's order. Because Tennessee is likely to succeed on its appeal of the preliminary injunction, we grant the stay….
In March 2023, Tennessee enacted the Prohibition on Medical Procedures Performed on Minors Related to Sexual Identity…. Seeking to "protect[] minors from physical and emotional harm," the legislature identified several concerns about recent treatments being offered by the medical profession for children with gender dysphoria. It was concerned that some treatments for gender dysphoria "can lead to the minor becoming irreversibly sterile, having increased risk of disease and illness, or suffering adverse and sometimes fatal psychological consequences." It was concerned that the long-term costs of these treatments remain unknown and outweigh any near-term benefits because they are "experimental in nature and not supported by high-quality, long-term medical studies." And it noted that other helpful, less risky, and non-irreversible treatments remain available.
These findings convinced the legislature to ban certain medical treatments for minors with gender dysphoria. A healthcare provider may not "administer or offer to administer" "a medical procedure" to a minor "for the purpose of" either "[e]nabling a minor to identify with, or live as, a purported identity inconsistent with the minor's sex," or "[t]reating purported discomfort or distress from a discordance between the minor's sex and asserted identity." Prohibited medical procedures include "[s]urgically removing, modifying, altering, or entering into tissues, cavities, or organs" and "[p]rescribing, administering, or dispensing any puberty blocker or hormone."
The Act contains two relevant exceptions. It permits the use of these medical procedures to treat congenital defects, precocious puberty, disease, or physical injury. And it has a "continuing care" exception until March 31, 2024, which permits healthcare providers to continue administering a long-term treatment, say hormone therapy, that began before the Act's effective date.
The district court blocked enforcement of the law, but the Court of Appeals stayed the decision pending appeal, concluding that the challengers were unlikely to prevail on their parental rights (substantive due process) and equal protection claims:
First, the challengers do not argue that the original fixed meaning of either the due process or equal protection guarantee covers these claims. That prompts the question whether the people of this country ever agreed to remove debates of this sort—about the use of new drug treatments on minors—from the conventional place for dealing with new norms, new drugs, and new technologies: the democratic process. Life-tenured federal judges should be wary of removing a vexing and novel topic of medical debate from the ebbs and flows of democracy by construing a largely unamendable federal constitution to occupy the field.
Second, while the challengers do invoke constitutional precedents of the Supreme Court and our Court in bringing this lawsuit, not one of them resolves these claims. In each instance, they seek to extend the constitutional guarantees to new territory. There is nothing wrong with that, to be sure. But it does suggest that the key premise of a preliminary injunction—likelihood of success on the merits—is missing. The burden of establishing an imperative for constitutionalizing new areas of American life is not—and should not be—a light one, particularly when "the States are currently engaged in serious, thoughtful" debates about the issue.
Third, the States are indeed engaged on these issues, as the recent proliferation of legislative activity across the country shows. Compare Ga. Code Ann. § 31-7-35 (banning gender-affirming treatments for minors) and Idaho Code § 18-1506C (similar), with Cal. Penal Code § 819 (prohibiting cooperation with other states as to gender-affirming care provided to out-of-state minors in California), Colo. Rev. Stat. § 12-30-121(1)(d) (designating gender- affirming care as "legally protected health-care activity"), and Minn. Stat. § 260.925 (refusing to enforce out-of-state laws that would limit a parent's custody rights for consenting to gender- affirming care). See also Ala. Code § 16-1-52 (restricting sports participation by transgender students); Wyo. Stat. Ann. § 21-25-102 (similar); Mont. Code Ann. § 40-6-7X1(1)(f) (requiring parental consent for changes in a child's pronouns). Leaving the preliminary injunction in place starts to grind these all-over-the-map gears to a halt. Given the high stakes of these nascent policy deliberations—the long-term health of children facing gender dysphoria—sound government usually benefits from more rather than less debate, more rather than less input, more rather than less consideration of fair-minded policy approaches. To permit legislatures on one side of the debate to have their say while silencing legislatures on the other side of the debate under the U.S. Constitution does not further these goals.
That many members of the medical community support the plaintiffs is surely relevant. But it is not dispositive for the same reason we would not defer to a consensus among economists about the proper incentives for interpreting the impairment-of-contracts or takings clauses of the U.S. Constitution. At all events, the medical and regulatory authorities are not of one mind about using hormone therapy to treat gender dysphoria. Else, the FDA would by now have approved the use of these drugs for these purposes. That has not happened, however, giving us considerable pause about constitutionalizing an answer they have not given or, best we can tell, even finally studied.
Due process. The challengers argue that the Act violates their due process right to control the medical care of their children…. Parents, it is true, have a substantive due process right "to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children." But the Supreme Court cases recognizing this right confine it to narrow fields, such as education, and visitation rights. No Supreme Court case extends it to a general right to receive new medical or experimental drug treatments. In view of the high stakes of constitutionalizing areas of public policy, any such right must be defined with care. The challengers have not shown that a right to new medical treatments is "deeply rooted in our history and traditions" and thus beyond the democratic process to regulate.
Constitutionalizing new parental rights in the context of new medical treatments is no mean task. On the one side of the ledger, parents generally can be expected to know what is best for their children. On the other side of the ledger, state governments have an abiding interest in "preserving the welfare of children," and "in protecting the integrity and ethics of the medical profession." These interests give States broad power, even broad power to "limit[] parental freedom," particularly in an area of new medical treatment. We doubt, for example, that there are many drug-regulatory agencies in the world that, without satisfactory long-term testing, would delegate to parents and a doctor exclusive authority to decide whether to permit a potentially irreversible new drug treatment.
More generally, state legislatures play a critical role in regulating health and welfare, and their efforts are usually "entitled to a 'strong presumption of validity.'" As a result, federal courts must be vigilant not to "substitute" their views for those of legislatures, a caution that is particularly apt when construing unenumerated guarantees.
Judicial deference is especially appropriate where "medical and scientific uncertainty" exists…. Gender-affirming procedures often employ FDA-approved drugs for non-approved, "off label" uses. Tennessee decided that such off-label use in this area presents unacceptable dangers. Many medical professionals and many medical organizations may disagree. But the Constitution does not require Tennessee to view these treatments the same way as the majority of experts or to allow drugs for all uses simply because the FDA has approved them for some. It is well within a State's police power to ban off-label uses of certain drugs. At the same time, it is difficult to maintain that the medical community is of one mind about the use of hormone therapy for gender dysphoria when the FDA is not prepared to put its credibility and careful testing protocols behind the use….
Equal protection…. Statutory classifications are ordinarily valid if they are rationally related to and further a legitimate state interest. More exacting scrutiny applies when a law implicates protected classes.
It's highly unlikely, as an initial matter, that the plaintiffs could show that the Act lacks a rational basis. The State plainly has authority, in truth a responsibility, to look after the health and safety of its children. In this area of unfolding medical and policy debate, a State has more rather than fewer options. Tennessee could rationally take the side of caution before permitting irreversible medical treatments of its children.
The challengers pin their main claims for likelihood of success on the assumption that heightened scrutiny applies. They first argue that the Tennessee Act discriminates on the basis of sex and thus requires the State to satisfy intermediate scrutiny. We are skeptical.
The Act bans gender-affirming care for minors of both sexes. The ban thus applies to all minors, regardless of their biological birth with male or female sex organs. That prohibition does not prefer one sex to the detriment of the other. The Act mentions the word "sex," true. But how could it not? That is the point of the existing hormone treatments—to help a minor transition from one gender to another. That also explains why it bans procedures that administer cross-sex hormones but not those that administer naturally occurring hormones. A cisgender girl cannot transition through use of estrogen; only testosterone will do that. A cisgender boy cannot transition through use of testosterone; only estrogen will do that. The reality that the drugs' effects correspond to sex in these understandable ways and that Tennessee regulates them does not require skeptical scrutiny. "The regulation of a medical procedure that only one sex can undergo does not trigger heightened constitutional scrutiny unless the regulation is a 'mere pretex[t] designed to effect an invidious discrimination against the members of one sex or the other.'" No such pretext has been shown here. If a law restricting a medical procedure that applies only to women does not trigger heightened scrutiny, as in Dobbs, a law equally appliable to all minors, no matter their sex at birth, does not require such scrutiny either.
The plaintiffs separately claim that the Act amounts to transgender-based discrimination, violating the rights of a quasi-suspect class. But neither the Supreme Court nor this court has recognized transgender status as a quasi-suspect class. Until that changes, rational basis review applies to transgender-based classifications. In the context of a preliminary injunction and the need to establish a likelihood of success on the merits, that should be nearly dispositive given the requirement of showing a "clear" right to relief.
The bar for recognizing a new quasi-suspect class, moreover, is a high one. The Supreme Court has recognized just two such classes … (gender and illegitimacy), and none in recent years. The Court "has not recognized any new constitutionally protected classes in over four decades, and instead has repeatedly declined to do so."
That hesitancy makes sense here. Gender identity and gender dysphoria pose vexing line-drawing dilemmas for legislatures. Plenty of challenges spring to mind. Surgical changes versus hormone treatment. Drugs versus counseling. One drug versus another. One age cutoff for minors versus another. Still more complex, what about sports, access to bathrooms, definitions of disability? And will we constitutionalize the FDA approval rules in the process? Even when accompanied by judicial tiers of scrutiny, the U.S. Constitution does not offer a principled way to judge each of these lines—and still others to boot. All that would happen is that we would remove these trying policy choices from fifty state legislatures to one Supreme Court. Instead of the vigorous, sometimes frustrating, "arena of public debate and legislative action" across the country and instead of other options provided by fifty governors and fifty state courts, we would look to one judiciary to sort it all out. That is not how a constitutional democracy is supposed to work—or at least works best—when confronting evolving social norms and innovative medical options.
Bostock v. Clayton County (2020) does not change the analysis. Title VII's prohibition on employment discrimination "because of … sex" encompasses discrimination against persons who are gay or transgender, the Court concluded. But that reasoning applies only to Title VII, as Bostock itself and our subsequent cases make clear….
We recognize that other courts and judges have taken different approaches to these issues. We recognize, too, that several district courts have addressed similar laws in other States and assessed those laws in much the same way as the district court did in this case. And our thoughtful colleague has reached a similar conclusion. We appreciate their perspectives, and they give us pause. But they do not eliminate our doubts about the ultimate strength of the challengers' claims for the reasons just given.
All told, the challengers lack a "clear showing" that they will succeed on the merits, and that is particularly so in view of the burdensome nature of a facial attack and the fraught task of justifying statewide relief….
Judge Helene White concurred in part (as to an injunction scope issue that I don't discuss in this post) and dissenting in part:
Tennessee's law likely discriminates against Plaintiffs on the basis of sex in violation of the Equal Protection Clause, thus triggering intermediate scrutiny. Although the state argues that the act "appl[ies] equally to males and females," the law discriminates based on sex because "medical procedures that are permitted for a minor of one sex are prohibited for a minor of another sex." To illustrate, under the law, a person identified male at birth could receive testosterone therapy to conform to a male identity, but a person identified female at birth could not. Indeed, until today, every federal court addressing similar laws reached the same conclusion as Brandt. {Defendants raise in their reply brief the argument that "[b]oth sexes use the same puberty blockers, so prohibiting them for gender dysphoria does not even consider sex." Reply Br. 3. But this does not solve the problem. Under Tennessee's law, someone identified male at birth could take puberty blockers consistent with a treatment plan that contemplates development consistent with a male identity, but someone identified female at birth could not.}
In the Title VII context, the Supreme Court has made clear that sex discrimination occurs when an "employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth." Bostock. That principle is directly on point here and highly persuasive.
"Like racial classifications, sex-based discrimination is presumptively invalid." "Government policies that discriminate based on sex cannot stand unless the government provides an 'exceedingly persuasive justification,'" which requires showing that the "classification serves 'important governmental objectives,' and … is 'substantially and directly related' to the government's objectives." Applying this standard, I fail to see how the state can justify denying access to hormone therapies for treatment of minor Plaintiffs' gender dysphoria while permitting access to others, especially in light of the district court's robust factual findings on the benefits of these treatments for transgender youth….
Clark L. Hildabrand, Steven J. Griffin & Brooke A. Huppenthal of the Tennessee Attorney Generl's office, Adam K. Mortara of Lawfair LLC, and Cameron T. Norris and Tiffany H. Bates of Consovoy McCarthy PLLC represent the state.
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Kinder/Gentler Frank, Prohibited medical procedures include “[s]urgically removing, modifying, altering, or entering into tissues, cavities, or organs” For J-hovah’s sake, that’s all Surgery is, removing, modifying, altering, entering into tissues, cavities, or organs. Any procedure with an “Ectomy” in it? removiing, “Plasty” modifying, “Otomy” entering, and that’s not even mentioning the Dilation and Curettage…. It’s the “What” and “Why” of the Ectomy that matters, Removing that Dead Gallbladder?? Good! (don’t like the Dead Gallbladders) Normal Breasts?? Bad!! (love the normal breasts)
and is it the Kinder/Gentler or Alzheimers?? RFK Jr sounds like a reasonable guy, or at least more reasonable than Senescent J.
Frank “Kind enough for ya??”
But the previous phrase -
“A healthcare provider may not "administer or offer to administer" "a medical procedure" to a minor "for the purpose of" either "[e]nabling a minor to identify with, or live as, a purported identity inconsistent with the minor's sex," or "[t]reating purported discomfort or distress from a discordance between the minor's sex and asserted identity."
- clarifies that the operations are prohibited only in relation to gender affirming surgery.
So Breast "Augmentations" are still Kosher?? Jay-Hovah Bless Amurica!!!!!!!!!
Well, the FDA recommends against breast augmentations for minors, no matter how distressed the little girl is about the size of her breasts.
Well that's not "helpful"
What, even if she "identifies" as a D cup?
It's like saying they won't approve of a perm, but electrolysis? Go for it!
Gender affirmation:
You were born male, you are male, and toward that reality, those of us in health care who have not lost our minds will continue to affirm you are male.
The Volokh Conspiracy has become the
Mb>TransLesbo Times,
with wall-to-wall coverage of transgender-lesbian-Muslim-drag queen-gay issues that leaves little to no room for other issues (such as important defamation cases, important insurrection cases, important legal discipline cases, etc.).
Between nonstop coverage of the transgender beat, and constant scouring of Westlaw for cases that provide an opportunity to publish vile racial slurs with plausible deniability, it is no wonder the Volokh Conspiracy can't find the time to address the leading legal issues of the day.
Perhaps if the medical-industrial complex had not completely gone off the deep end trying to make money from confused kids and woke parents, this would be less of an issue.
Don't kid yourself about who is paying for this.
The argument is unlikely to fly with the current clowns of SCOTUS, but the political reality is that much state legislation that singles out transgendered persons to their detriment is born of animus — hatemongering directed at a despised minority.
As the Supreme Court in better days opined in Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620, 634-35 (1996):
Statutes such as the one under consideration should not survive even rational basis analysis.
Very "Through the Looking Glass-esque"
the peoples (i.e. Me) against cutting off perfectly good Peni/Breasts are the bad guys....
Frank "(Redacted) will roll!!!!"
Now talk about Joe Kennedy's decision to lobotomize his daughter, Rosemary.
OK, still kinder/gentler Frank, but can’t let this hanging Curveball go by…. “SO………………… how many innocent young Mary Jo Kopeckney’s did Rosemary drunkenly abandon to asphyxiate?????? (not drowned, there’s a difference) OK, back to kinder/gentler Frank
and as a footnote, almost like Kramer’s “Pants Story”, if Ted Kennedy had undergone a Frontal Lobotomy, he probably wouldn’t have died from Glioblastoma, which originated in his Frontal Lobe…
Frank “You gotta mulch”
Joe Kennedy’s decision is germane to what, now?
In that "Progressive" policies have led to the near extinction of Mongoloid, oops! sorry, kinder/gentler Down's Syndrome babies, won't be too long before it'll be "Look Kids! Big Ben! the only Mongoloid, I mean Down's Syndrome survivor in Atlanta"
Remember hearing some BS on PMS-NBC (Redundant, I know) where they were rending their garments that the average Down Syndrome umm "person" had a greater net worth than your average African Amurican (well duh, most Down's Syndromes peoples don't smoke crack, commit felonies, and have jobs)
Frank "Not Mongoloid, but have the Simian Crease"
You see what happens? You go bonkers on punctuating, using dozens of exclamation points and question marks in every sentence, then you suddenly run out and have to stop punctuating entirely halfway through a post. You gotta learn self-control.
Exactly. Any court that starts by treating this law as (an attempt at) legitimate regulation of the medical profession is being willingly blind to what is happening here. In 2023 even among American conservatives (though not, sadly, among the VC commentariat) discrimination against gays generally is no longer acceptable. So right-wing populists have to find a different target.
The cruelty is the point.
"Cruelty" being defined as not letting minors decide to undergo irreversible genital mutilation (ever try to re-attach a penis?? OK, I haven't either, can't be that hard (get it??)
Frank "Cruel to be Kind"
"The cruelty is the point."
Bullshit. The point is to keep children for being sterilized.
If your claim is true, which it most certainly is not, then the law is wildly overbroad.
How so? Gender reassignment surgery, cross sex hormones, and puberty blockers can, and often do, sterilize the patients.
Puberty blockers do not belong on that list. Check your sources.
Provide yours.
There are legitimate uses for puberty blockers but "gender transition isn't or shouldn't be one.
How long do you block puberty?
Puberty blockers can and will cause long term permement damage to the development of the human body with strong potential to retard the human reproductive system.
No, they don't.
Delayed puberty may also negatively affect adult psychosocial functioning and educational achievement, and individuals with a history of delayed puberty carry a higher risk for metabolic and cardiovascular disorders.
No, they don't. The side effects are rare enough to be considered safe, and are not out of line with other hormone treatments.
It's pretty easy to tell when you're plagiarizing, because your own vocabulary isn't exactly at that level. Or, you know, a fifth-grade level.
That bit is verbatim from a study of exactly the opposite of what you claim: It's very specifically about naturally-delayed puberty, and the passage you quote is the minority view (as the abstract notes further down, most consider it generally harmless).
"The side effects are rare enough to be considered safe, and are not out of line with other hormone treatments."
That was what they thought from the record using them to treat precocious puberty, forcing it to happen on a normal schedule. That's NOT the outcome when used to prevent a normal puberty, instead.
You are speaking complete bollocks, of course. The side effects are the same, and just as rare, whatever its use.
Nige - Try to do a basic google search before you comment with so little knowledge of basic human biology.
Your ideology blinds you from grasping basic knowledge of science
I thought Google was Evil now.
Is the Mayo Clinic a good enough source for you?
"Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on:
Growth spurts.
Bone growth.
Bone density.
Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started."
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
Yeah, possible side effects, rare enough to be considered safe for treatments, not out of line with other hormonal treatments.
None of the studies have been long term. 3 years at most because they are meant to delay puberty so that it occurs in the normal range. Certainly not the long term usage envisioned by the butchers of children.
The hormones in question have been in use for decades.
Not what the source says.
The reputable sources or the crackpots and the minority views and the just plain lying?
The Mayo Clinic. I don't know what's worse, that you think the Mayo Clinic is "crackpots and the minority views and the just plain lying". or that you can't read a simple English sentence like "Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on...Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started.” and understand it.
This is not 'can and will.'
It''s also not 'Puberty blockers do not belong on that list'. And it most certainly is 'can'
Can and often do? That does not mean a rare side effect.
Stop moving the goalposts, if you can .
'Can' means it can happen. I don't know how common or rare it is, and the source I cited doesn't say - but cleary it can happen.
Words do have meanings, you know.
Among the VC commentariat gay bashing is acceptable? No, it’s not. You’re putting way too much stock in the posts of three or four trolls who are easily ignored.
Martinned will speak for himself, but I suspect the point is that the right wing hate machine's focus was redirected toward the transgendered only after bashing gays and lesbians became less socially acceptable (perhaps because more of those who had been closeted came out, and more hateful people realized that they were hurting someone near and dear to them).
The haters needed a less populous target, whose members are less likely to live openly.
Why does this blog feed its target audience an incessant stream of drag queen-transgender sorority-gay-Muslim-transgender parenting-lesbian-transgender rest room content?
Hint: Same reason this blog publishes an equally steady stream of racial slurs.
Carry on, clingers. But try to recognize that neither the garish libertarian drag nor the 'we're not bigots -- we're color-blind traditional-religious-family-conservative values fans' bullshit is fooling anyone outside the clingerverse.
"Carry on, Klingers"
Is this like a fitness thang, umm,
"Coach" Sandusky??
the way you repeat it, almost like a dude doing curls, bench presses , push ups, ("Coach" prefers the "Push-Ins")
Seriously, I'm trying to be "Kinder/Gentler"
you're just getting "Jerrier/Sanduski-er"
Frank "Where's my Cocaine??? I had it at the beginning of the White House tour"
Dear Diary,
Today more No-no words! I am at my wits end! How is this legal?
Frustrated but Still Standing Strong,
Arthur Where’s My Soy Latte Kirkland
NPC Alert.
Woke A-hole using Term "NPC Alert" Alert
Among the VC commentariat gay bashing is acceptable? No, it’s not. You’re putting way too much stock in the posts of three or four trolls who are easily ignored.
I think it is.
Think of how often the words "groomer" and "grooming" are tossed around. It's not everyone, I agree, or even every conservative, but it's way more than three or four.
Plus, I don't recall a lot of comments from the right objecting to the frequent use of those terms.
I agree the use of groomer in this context is flat out stupid. But I hardly see it thrown around here at all.
I do have the three or four parties most likely to use the term on mute, but it’s not that many people. I don’t think. I guess I’m not certain and I ain’t gonna go looking for them.
Right or wrong, my sense is that most on here are reasonably tolerant towards gays. There’s a lot of grousing about Oberkfell (which I think was a great decision). Does that count as homophobia? Honestly, I don’t know.
"The cruelty is the point." says the guy who wants to cut kid's dicks off. The lack of self-awareness is amazing.
The proponents of mutilation of individuals with mental illness have to accuse sane people who are opposed to such cruelty to justify their barbaric treatment of the mentally ill.
Note that the CDC is proposing instructions for how a male who has had cosmetic surgery on how the chestfeed an infant - yet no apparent concern for the harm to the infant
So from a European perspective how would you compare UK's current model to Tennessee?
Or Norway's:
"The current guidelines say minors with gender dysphoria should undergo an interdisciplinary assessment by a team of healthcare specialists, and from there may receive puberty-delaying treatment once puberty has started, and estrogen or androgen hormone therapy no earlier than age 16. The guidelines say surgical treatment is generally “not applicable” for minors under 18, but chest surgery may be appropriate in special cases, based on a comprehensive assessment and parental consent."
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-norway-not-ban-gender-affirming-care-956221436313
Or Sweden?
"Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare explains that the reason behind the rollback is that little is known about the effects of these treatments over the long term and "the risks outweigh the benefits currently".
However, experts say those treatments were designed for exceptional cases in the first place.
"We had a protocol in place which was designed for very rare and extreme cases and suddenly the demand exploded so we continued to use that protocol,” said Mikael Landen, a psychiatrist specialising in gender dysphoria who contributed to the scientific study on which Sweden’s health authority based its decision."
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens
Seems to me Tennesee would be in the European mainstream, or maybe you could explain the differences.
There are right wing extremists who think going 'anti-woke' is better than having any actual policies in Europe, too. Lots of them are funded by Putin and/or US Christian fundamentalists.
Norway doesn't seem that far removed from best practice in the US. The Sweden thing is wrong, nothing was rolled back.
God help the 'exceptional cases' in US states where care is banned.
You comment is pure delusional.
Your comment is barely a comment.
Putin is the current boogeyman to the progressive left. He’s replaced the Koch brothers (gasp!) as their Soros.
And only someone with a truly broken brain like nige can honestly think that US Christian fundamentalists are influencing anything in Europe.
When nige goes to bed at night he has his mom check under the bed for Putin and the Christians.
https://time.com/5903931/christian-right-conservative-agenda-europe-report/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/europe-s-far-right-enjoys-backing-russia-s-putin-n718926
Bevis thinks he can just pretend some stuff isn't happening because it suits him.
Ooh here's a good one:
https://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/61498/russia-funds-french-national-front-is-moscow-sowing-european-unrest
'Marine Le Pen has admitted that her far-right Front National accepted money from a Russian bank, amid growing evidence that the Kremlin is backing anti-European parties across the continent.'
'Russian loans have also been extended to Greece’s neofascist Golden Dawn party, Belgium’s Vlaams Belang, Italy’s Northern League, Hungary’s Jobbik and the Freedom Party of Austria, The Times reports. All of these parties except Golden Dawn were invited to observe Crimea's vote on joining Russia and all offered their support for the annexation of the south-eastern Ukrainian region.'
Just to actualise the obvious:
https://archive.thinkprogress.org/world-congress-of-families-anti-lgbtq-russian-far-right-financing-f9a3d4de4a90/
'A series of reports over the past few months have pulled back the curtain on discussions about secret funding from Russia to far-right forces in Europe.'
'Now, there are new questions about the connection the funding has with perhaps the most notorious international anti-LGBTQ group in existence — a joint Russian-American brainchild called the World Congress of Families (WCF).'
Nige,
You are all aboard the 'confirmation bias' train. You search and mine for something that is close to saying what you believe, and ignore all the challenges your desires.
I have yet to see any downside of undergoing evaluations until age 18.
This is elementary risk benefit analysis.
I haven’t seen anything that challenges all the reports that the Christian right and Putin, via Russian banks and oligarchs, are funding ‘anti-woke’ far right groups in Europe. Maybe that’s confirmation bias, or maybe it’s because no such contradictory reports exist, because it’s established fact.
'I have yet to see any downside of undergoing evaluations until age 18.'
Who cares? As a medical opinion, that's worthless.
Iowatwo 7 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Nige,
"You are all aboard the ‘confirmation bias’ train. You search and mine for something that is close to saying what you believe, and ignore all the challenges your desires."
Iowa - Nige still believes the entire russian hoax story
Nige still believes the Hunter laptop was russian disinformation
Nige has zero ability to recognize junk science
There's still one Koch brother going, by the way, a fossil fuel billionaire with immense wealth and influence, wonder what he likes to have politicians do.
The Kochs are libertarians, they don't want the government to do anything.
But in case you forgot, Charles Koch is a Never Trumper. I'd think you'd be able to find a better villian.
Koch network raises more than $70 million, launches new anti-Trump ads in early-voting states | CNN Politics
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/29/politics/koch-network-fundraising-trump-ads/index.html
Of course they didn't, they wanted to wreck the environment and burn the planet for profit without any pesky governments getting in their way. And they were doing all that way before Trump showed up, so that's just Satan and Beelzebub having a difference of opinion.
Free business has done magnitudes more for the common man than preening politicians ever have. You can't even do a damned thing for them, throwing money-wise, unless you have a strong economy with a big tax base.
Tell it to the people living in cancer corridors or that big chunk of South American jungle destroyed by oil waste. 'Free' indeed.
The damage to the jungle done by oil waste was done by the state owned oil company after they took over Texaco's operations, and signed off that everything was in order.
That's what state owned enterprises do.
Oh, no, a fossil fuel billionaire!!!! How awful!!!!
Sez a guy who has been using all the fossil fuels he can afford for his entire life.
Love how you retreat into utter inanity.
Do you have a cite for your claim about this funding?
I dunno, do I?
"discrimination against gays generally is no longer acceptable."
Nobody cares about homosexuals.
It is trannies impacting kids that is the problem.
If an adult wants to mutilate themselves, have a blast. Knock yourselves out. Just make sure it is (accurately) listed as completely cosmetic and not having to be paid for by me.
'It is trannies impacting kids that is the problem.'
Tras people have nothing to do with whether a child gets diagnosed as trans.
Keep on convincing yourself of that.
I don't have to, nothing anyone has said or done or shown suggests it's really a thing.
THIS IS INSANITY.
‘member when companies started voluntarily providing benefits to gay significant others, because some people wouldn’t let them get legally married?
And then some people passed laws forbidding private companies from doing that?
Good times in assholery. Good times!
The above rollover occured only a few years after laws throwing gays into jail for sex were overturned. What a sad decade that was for some of you, I suppose.
Actually, it seems rather cruel to butcher children by removing functional body parts.
The political reality is that much state legislation that singles out transgendered persons to their detriment is born of animus — hatemongering directed at a despised minority.
The political reality is that much state legislation that singles out murderers to their detriment is born of animus — hatemongering directed at a despised minority.
The political reality is that much state legislation that singles out rapists to their detriment is born of animus — hatemongering directed at a despised minority.
The political reality is that much state legislation that singles out child mutilators to their detriment is born of animus — hatemongering directed at a despised minority.
Uh, even viewers of Sesame Street can learn that "one of these things is not like the others." Why can't Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf?
Yes, I was just about to quote the Sesame Street song after I finished a different comment.
Equating trangender people with murderers, rapists and child mutilators rather proves the point being made, thank you.
Transgenderism is caused by a mismatch between the mind and the body; people on the right and left will both willingly admit this. While a bit simplistic the issue is really no different in kind than a computer having a software and hardware mismatch. Both the left and the right also agree that this mismatch is unacceptable and requires a solution. The right prefers altering the mind to match the body (changing the software) while the left prefers altering the body to match the mind (changing the hardware).
The distinguishing factor of the left's policy position when compared to the right's is that it maintains transgender individuals in a sort of political class forever, where they are seen and paraded about and made a spectacle of. The right's policy simply treats them and sends them on about their way, no longer useful as political objects (or "victims"). When viewed in conjunction with the obscenely high suicide rate for post-op transgendered individuals it is the left's policy that seems most obviously invidious.
The amount of BS in that post could fertilize the entire state of PA for a decade. Trans people who get appropriate treatment have a much less suicide rate. Also, it is not a choice between "fixing software and fixing hardware", trans treatment involves both counseling and medical care. You can not brainwash a trans person into being non-trans.
Frank going a little "Blue" here
Yeah, if you chop of my dick, slice a gash in my nether-regions and call it a "Neo" Pussy, shoot me up with enough Estrogen to cure the entire NOW membership of their PMS,
Maybe I wouldn't consider suicide either (Life would be bad enough, a dry itchy normal vagina is bad enough, but a dry itchy NEO vagina???)
Frank
The suicide rate may be lower short term, but appears to be higher long term.
Unless that's tautologically defined so that someone who "detransitioned" is deemed to never 'really' have been trans at all, that's empirically false. (Minus the pejorative term 'brainwash,' obviously.)
>Trans people who get appropriate treatment have a much less suicide rate
There isn't much evidence for that claim. What evidence there is low-quality and unreliable.
And that's one of the reasons for moving slowly with gender affirming care: the risks and benefits are not clear.
Hey (Man!) if you’re gonna cut off my dick, please don’t do it “Slowly” Love the “Risks/Benefits” we’re required to do nows a days. “OK, one of the “Risks” of cutting off your Dick, is we cut off your Dick” and the “Informed Patient” always asks “What?” “You won’t have a Dick anymore, we’re chopping it off” “and the Benefits??” “You won’t have to worry about Dick Cancer” “OK! where do I sign???”
Frank
John - you are correct that the evidence is of low quality and unreliable. The problem with trying to determine if there is a decrease in the suicide rate before or after transition treatment is that subset of the population is too small. A change of only one or two suicides can drastically change the rates. The best evidence is that the very little , if any, change in the rates for that subset of the population.
We also can't "brainwash" a 12 year old with body dysphoria disorder (or, perhaps, one just having heard about such a thing via Instagram and, as kids are prone to do, "identify" with the "movement" as it allows them to be "unique" and explains away (they hope) all their "problems") so we must agree to their request to amputate their arms and legs rather than "brainwashing" them.
It is interesting to note that some of those countries with the most experience in this area because they were among the first to embrace such care are now backing off.
Notably early last year Sweden halted hormone therapy for such children except in very rare cases and late last year their National Board of Health and Welfare concluded that mastectomies for teen girls should be limited to research settings.
This is not an easy problem as there probably are a few children for which the life altering procedures banned by the Tennessee's law are, on the net over their lives, beneficial. However, it's very questionable that is the case in the majority of those seeking such "care".
Those children who committed to it of course will generally insist they are happier for it years late in spite of the consequences because people tend to validate their own decisions in spite of evidence to the contrary. And, of course, if one's ability to engage in physically pleasurable sex is eliminated when they are young enough, they have no idea what they are missing - rather like those who got bacterial infections in 1800 had any idea what they were missing by not having access to antibiotics.
Some of the most telling accounts I've seen are of gay adults who recall wanting to be the opposite gender as a child and look back and are extremely happy that the environment when they were growing up didn't allow them to "transition".
In 30 years how will society view at the practice of "gender affirming" hormone and surgical interventions on children without extensive mental health treatment by professionals lacking a bias towards such treatment confirming that it is the only viable option? If I could make a bet, I'd bet the words such "barbaric" would be general consensus in describing for most such "care" - much as we view frontal lobotomies today.
'without extensive mental health treatment by'
Gender affirming care, the one you're trying to ban, requires multiple psych screenings, counselling sessions and mental health evaluations.
It, demonstrably, does not require multiple psych screenings and mental health evaluations.
'demonstrably'
Word doesn't mean what you think etc
It means it does not. And plenty of evidence shows it absolutely does not. I'm not convinced it is required whatsoever.
There is no such evidence, apart from the general paucity of trans healthcare, which is hardly something you give a shit about.
Nige 21 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
‘without extensive mental health treatment by’
Nige's comment - "Gender affirming care, the one you’re trying to ban, requires multiple psych screenings, counselling sessions and mental health evaluations."
Nige - hereto for - you have argued that transgender was a medical issue, not a mental health illness. Are you now admitting it is a mental illness?
Did the cover slip on your advocacy ?
"You can not brainwash a trans person into being non-trans."
Can you brainwash an anorexic to not be anorexic?
It is an exceptionally similar situation to children "wanting" to mutilate their genitals.
If you reduce all mental health treatments to 'brainwashing'... well, there you get the right wing approach to mental health care.
I used your teminology. Do not complain to me about the words you used.
Not sure who you quoted, but it wasn't me.
This starts out as a pretty great comment. The analogy between software and hardware is not perfect, but it's usable for the purpose here.
But then you talk about the right altering the mind...which is not true, they just want to at best ignore them and at worst fearmonger them as pedophiles. Which is dangerous and fucked up.
And your second paragraph...the right is making vastly more political hay a the moment on trans people. The entire GOP industry is bent to negative targeting trans folks as other and it is truly the worst part of our political nature. The left has trans people as a constituency, but Democrats writ large are not nearly so into the issue.
And the suicide thing is reductive as hell and has been debunked in a number of places.
"they just want to at best ignore them and at worst fearmonger them as pedophiles"
If people don't want to be labeled as pedos they would be well advised to not exposing their genitals and twerking in front of children. But the behavior honestly isn't surprising from someone with a chronic and untreated mental illness.
Yeah, so this isn't happening and I don't know how you found the strength to hold off the stupid in order to write a decent 3 sentences.
Because if you think the pedo label is legit, you want some bad shit to happen to these people.
Please... trans people are at no unique risk of violence, and in fact have a lower murder rate than the general public.
You really are breaking out all the hits.
I’m skeptical of that fact, but I also don’t think that’s required to think false labels of pedophilia is bad.
Don’t minimize that.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/11/18/i-just-try-make-it-home-safe/violence-and-human-rights-transgender-people-united
For such a tiny minority a lot of them sure do get targeted for violence and murder.
My, an impartial source to say the least. *rolling eyes*
44 deaths in a year? Yup, impossible to survive. And that was the worst year ever.
Any concerns about the abnormally high percentage of trannies who have a habit of shooting up multiple people?
From such a tiny percentage of the population? Mostly targeted for what they are? The callousness towards violence on the right pertains to everything, except when antifa get into fights with Nazis.
There is now abnormally high number of trans people responsible for multiple shootings. Every time there’s a mass shooting, however, there’s a flood of online disinformation claiming the shooter is trans.
You have a weird way of spelling "reality"
You have a weird willingness to play astonishingly dumb.
Nige - you have an incredible ability to believe crap put forth by activists.
The entire GOP industry is bent to negative targeting trans folks as other
Big brush you paint with.
All I see is parents demanding, is they, and not the govt, explain this to 8-18 year olds.
I learned a long time ago there are more sexual fetishes out their than can be catalogued. You go do yours, and I'll do mine.
But keep it out of sight of the children.
That's all I ask. I'll refrain from putting words in the mouths of others)
He doesnt think it's legit. I have a friend who works with registered sex offenders and he tells me there's a movement among child porn rings to toss around baseless accusations of pederasty and pedophilia to desensitize people to such things. It's not about trashing transgender people, or even about partisanship. It's about normalizing pederasty.
That’s what groomer is doing. Tell Kleppe to stop excusing tossing that term around.
Transgenderism is caused by a mismatch between the mind and the body;
gender dysphoria is a mental illness. The HUGE rise in numbers is the defining definition of a social contagion.
This specifically protects minors. Just for a few years. 4? years? Or less. Then the adults are free to mutilate themselves as they desire.
Our land is littered with laws specifically to protect minors.
defining definition of a social contagion.
Oh good lord.
It is exactly a social contagion and your lack of response concedes the claim.
The young "trans gender" population is literally 100s of times what it was 40 years ago, and varies wildly by locality.
This is obviously social contagion.
Social contagion isn't even a thing. It's an update on the Gay Agenda from the 90s.
Kleppe 4 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Transgenderism is caused by a mismatch between the mind and the body; people on the right and left will both willingly admit this. While a bit simplistic the issue is really no different in kind than a computer having a software and hardware mismatch."
Easiest treatment is to provide treatment to bring the mismatch back to normal. Instead of trying to bring the mismatch back to normal , the transgender activist what to embrace the mental illness and effectively toy with the mentally ills mind.
That is the real cruelty
'The right prefers altering the mind to match the body'
The right have absolutely no clue, nor do they want to have a clue, about any sort of effective alternative treatments outside of abusive and damaging conversion 'therapies.' They invoke mental health cynically, since they haven't the slightest interest in improving anyone's mental health care, let alone trans peoples'.
'it maintains transgender individuals in a sort of political class forever, where they are seen and paraded about and made a spectacle'
The sheer utter lameness of this as an effort at false equivalence. A politically targeted group becomes a political issue for people who seek to protect them. Derp.
"The right have absolutely no clue, nor do they want to have a clue, about any sort of effective alternative treatments outside of abusive and damaging conversion ‘therapies.’"
Gender dysphoria has been effectively treated for decades. The left's preference is to not only not treat it, but to agitate it. The outcome is as obvious as it is frequently inevitable.
'Gender dysphoria has been effectively treated for decades.'
Beating and berating the gay and/or the trans out of children is by no stretch of the imagination a 'treatment.' It's abuse.
'but to agitate it'
They're people, not soil samples.
You are an npc.
You claim to be fighting cartoon villains, not parents worried about their children.
These are parents terrified that other parents might treat their trans children with love and decency.
My understanding is gender-affirming care is easily the most effective treatment (while acknowledging individual results vary). It seems to me the right is ignoring those data. How is the left agitating gender dysphoria.
It is not. Most children that receive no treatment for their dysphoria desist from being trans after a short period of time. These desisted individuals have greatly reduced suicide and self harm rates compared to kids who receive puberty blockers. Indeed, there is little evidence for the reduction in self harm following trans hormone and surgical treatments long term.
Most children who present at gender clinics but are not diagnosed as trans desist. The ones diagnosed, not so much.
Feel free to provide a citation of that.
Ask Brett, he used to post the link all the time, until it finally sunk in that it contradicted his claims.
These days, everyone who presents with the claim of being trans is affirmed and diagnosed as such.
What’s special about that? Most people get treated for the conditions they present with without being challenged as faking it for unfathomable reasons.
Earlier you were arguing how rigorous the diagnosis is.
Now you concede its a rubber stamp.
lol good old rubber brain Nige
Nige -
You are quite frankly part of the problem
An advocate for implanting in the minds of the mentally ill that the are born in the wrong body and implanting in the minds of the mentally ill that a biological treatment can cure a non existent mental illness.
Your delusions that you want to bring forth as mainstream are pathetic
I think you'll find nothing is implanted, that people in distress go looking for help and sometimes it turns out the child is trans. You want to let kids like that suffer.
Ideas are implanted constantly.
The whole 'trans as groomers' one for example.
“The right have absolutely no clue, nor do they want to have a clue, about any sort of effective alternative treatments outside of abusive and damaging conversion ‘therapies.’”
Those dangerous conversion therapies that treat millions of addicts and alcoholics every year?
No, not drug and rehab programs. Is there nothing you people don't give a shit about?
I'd ask the same of you. Progressives seem to have a hard-on for regulating everything EXCEPT this. Which is odd.
What are you talking about? I would not suport any medical treatment that wasn't regulated to the same standard as every other medical treatment.
Oh no, I get it. The meanings of words just sort of dissolve around you.
That is clearly false.
Now you don't know what 'clearly' or 'false' mean.
If the basis for these laws were, "We want trans people to suffer," you'd be right, but I do not think many of the people supporting these laws believe that transgender is a class of person at all. Saying "you can't give children these drugs," in that case, is no more reflective of animus towards a class than saying "you can't give children alcohol" is. It's not meant to harm anyone.
Either way — since rational basis analysis looks not at the government's actual motives, but whether it's possible to come up with a viable justification — of course it survives rational basis analysis. (Obviously, whether rational basis is the right test is a separate question.)
If the basis for these laws were, “We want trans people to suffer,” you’d be right, but I do not think many of the people supporting these laws believe that transgender is a class of person at all. I don’t think the second part obviates the first part. See: Groomer.
I agree on the legal aspect, ever since animus was denied as a basis to challenge the Muslim ban.
For now, based on the science and tech we have right now. And provided it’s kept to minors. It doesn’t look like the transbaiters will be satisfied with that though.
How do you explain the astronomical rates of growth in LGBTQ identification if not grooming?
I’m actually embarrassed for you. Or I would be if you weren’t a racist, anti-semitic homophobe and transphobe. That requires a LOT of committed stupidity.
“Racist anti-Semitic homophobe and transphobe”
Wow, nige just pulled off the Grand Slam of mindless political name-calling. But he left out fascist. Practice, nige, practice.
Bevis, he’s proud of it. Just ask him. He’ll tell you. How many times do these jokers have to tell you what they are before you stop turning on the people who point out that this is what they are?
How do you explain the astronomical rates of growth in LGBTQ identification if not grooming?
Maybe you should try it out…maybe you’ll find out what all the fuss is about. 😉
I did once when I was about 5. I wasn't given a choice and didn’t enjoy it.
hbu?
The guy I know that got the most pussy one time got a bj from a tranny…he thought it was funny. I guess when you get a lot of pussy you just expect to make a few “mistakes”. The ladies never liked me very much and so I would have been very suspicious if a mannish woman started hitting on me. 😉
What an ahole you are.
5-year-olds I know aren’t getting or giving blow jobs.
Maybe that’s normal in your same-sex families.
If you claim you haven't encountered the actual explanation yet, you're lying.
Mind control rays from space aliens. Which is more of a thing that exists than "grooming."
That does not explain the exponential growth in gay and queer kids.
HTH
"I don’t think the second part obviates the first part. See: Groomer."
Sigh. Groomers aren't necessarily gay or trans people. Groomers are people who try to convince kids to become gay or trans. Nobody thinks a gay math teacher who just wants to teach kids math is a groomer.
'Groomers are people who try to convince kids to become gay or trans'
No, groomers are people who target vulnerable young people and lure them into situations where they can be sexually abused. You hateful freaks took that word and applied to to a minority you hate, claiming it's out of concern for children, focusing all the attention on dangers that don't exist at the expense of dangers that do.
Everyone knows what grooming is.
Trying to just slide in a new definition to launder your 'gays are pedophiles' bigotry is just being a coward about your bigotry.
Though also the 'gays reproduce by converting people' is some 1980s bigotry rewarmed anyhow, so it's really fuck you all the way down.
Bear in mind that this is the Qanon mass dissociative disorder sanitised for the Republican mainstream and aimed at a minority and through them the people who stand up for them – and that was never, ever not once about really and actually protecting kids either.
There are a number of reasons I like this blog. One of them were the extra crazy but not quite QAnon canaries in the coal mine clearly aching to call Dems pedophile lovers way before the Groomer thing dropped.
The mix here really shows how the worst bullshit from this to Jan 06 to the 2020 election gets laundered.
Groomers are people who try to mold minor children to the point that the minors will become sexually active. With them.
I’d guess that the vast majority of actual groomers are straight.
Nobody thinks a gay math teacher who just wants to teach kids math is a groomer.
Whether they think it or not, they certainly say it. Certainly around here.
As before, I disagree with Bevis about the use of the term to disparage gays and trans people.
What are you disagreeing with? I’m saying that use of the term to describe some attempt to turn kids gay or straight is bullshit. That groomer usually refers to an adult trying to lure a child into a sexual relationship with themselves.
If you disagree with that, I really don’t understand what you’re opinion is.
You politely disagree with people calling gay and trans people groomers, you get scathingly sarcastic when I call a racist a racist.
Baby steps, from just a few years back. That's some progress, I suppose.
You don't think the basis for these laws is, “We want trans people to suffer”?
Justice Kennedy's opinion of the Court in Romer didn't consider whether there was a viable justification for Amendment 2. (The Colorado Supreme Court had applied strict scrutiny because it infringed the fundamental right of gays and lesbians to participate in the political process.) SCOTUS instead ruled that a classification based on animus cannot legitimately be a permissible governmental objective.
Again, I acknowledge that that rationale is unlikely to fly with the current Supreme Court.
No, the basis for these laws is, "We don't want to remove healthy body parts from people who are too young to consent to their removal."
We don't let kids drink alcohol, why should we let them cut their dicks off?
Gender affirming care is a recognised medical treatment, drinking alcohol is just something that young people are overwhelmingly encouraged, and even expected, to do by almost every facet of US culture and life.
Forced sterilization was a recognized medical treatment - Buck v. Bell
Lobotimies were a recognized medical treatment - See Rosemary Kennedy
Scientific racializism was a recongized theoretical framework - See late 19th century America.
Informed consent was not recognized as an essential principle of medical practice until the late 1960s, and it wasn't even MDs calling for it. It was mostly politicians, bioethicists, clergy, etc.
Tuskegee experiments was widely recognized a legitimate research model.
All of these cases--including the child transgender ones--involve medical procedures, but what drives questions about them are their ethical status. We know from historical experience that the last group of people we can trust about medical ethics is the medical profession, especially today, with the rise of big Pharma and corporate medicine.
The same standard can be applied to every single modern medical treatement - bad things have been done under the guise of medical treatment, therefore all these treatments must also be bad.
Hey hey hey! Don’t forget suing lawyers who need to beat the drum this or that thing is the goddam worstest ever, because juries don’t give huge awards to tiny problems, and it takes a long time to save for your 80 foot yacht taking 1/3 of tiny settlements.
not guilty 58 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User You don’t think the basis for these laws is, “We want trans people to suffer”
No conservatives want to reduce the suffering –
Is truly a delusional belief that the current fad treatment is will cure the mental illness
the mutilation of the genitals only changes the outdoor faucets, the indoor plumbing cant be changed
Yeah the groomer thing and it’s not normal talk is surely all about care and mercy.
Don’t piss on our leg and tell us it’s raining. The right is targeting an outgroup and getting populist jollies from it.
Well, what do you call people who want graphic novels featuring sex with an underaged boy to be in K-12 schools?
Made-up.
We have the books they demand to be in schools. If you're unaware, I suspect it is one of many topics you're oblivious about.
You have the books, you lie about the age groups that have access to them.
No. I really do not. It is amusing to see school boards ban parents from reading from the books they place in schools.
Of course, this whole contrived panic amuses you, because you don't actually care about childrens' well-being and safety.
It amuses me that the same people claiming inappropriate books are not actually in public schools also threaten to kick anybody out of a school board meeting who reads one of these books that, again, they say are not inappropriate.
I know dumb performative nonsense amuses you, you don't care if kids get hurt.
You're the one, mind you, advocating for the harming of children. Spare me your performative caterwauling.
You're the one conflating medically approved treatments with 'hurting children.'
Sacastro - its leftists targeting and attacking a very vunnerable group with a dangerous irreversable treatment.
Most european countries have restricted the pseudo treatment due to the long term damage. Its vocal activists that want to continue the allowing a very damaging treatment
Sacastro – that is a pretty shitty response since I said nothing about groomers .
Shows you cant discuss or respond to my comments based on the merits. You have to resort to smears
No.
Yes, it did. How could it not? One can't conclude that there isn't one without considering whether there is one.
You're begging the question. That a law based solely on animus can't survive any level of scrutiny does not resolve anything, because you have to establish that the law is based solely on animus. Short of a confession by the lawmakers ("We're passing this law to punish gays because we hate them"), the only way to do so is to eliminate all other possibilities. That was pretty easy to do in Romer because of the substance of Amendment 2: it forbid voters from including gays in anti-discrimination laws. It's one thing for a legislature to pass a public accommodations law and not include sexual orientation as a protected characteristic. It's quite another to say, "Even if people want to protect sexual orientation, they can't." Kennedy concluded for the court that the law lacked any rational relationship to any legitimate government interests — i.e., that it failed the rational basis test.
If the basis for these laws were, “We want trans people to suffer,”
I don't think that's the basis. I think the basis is "Here's a bunch of people we don't really care about, who it is politically useful to demonize, so we'll do what we can to make some sort of culture war issue out of them."
I think you’re wrong. Trans people as a class, are to them, grooming children into being trans the way gay people used to groom kids into being gay back in the 90s, portrayed that way for reason Bernard outlines in his comment. It’s the blood libel redux.
Was the basis of the law struck down in Romer not really animus because Colorado could rationally believe homosexuality is not a trait, but an immoral behavior? At some point, courts have to deal with whether it is rational to reject being transgender is a trait.
In order to prevail in the current Supreme Court, a surgeon in Tennessee just needs to argue that the law prevents them from providing their "creative and expressive" medical services to transgender minors.
Bam....Free Speech violation.
I know you think you're attacking 303, but even amongst the crowd of stupid arguments about that case, this one truly stands out.
303 involved a first amendment right against compelled speech. This law doesn't restrict or compel speech, it restricts certain medical practices with respect to minors.
Cry -ism harder.
These states are only doing what a lot of other nations have done -- including those who experienced with pro-transgender policies before they realized that the actual science was against chemical sterilizing or surgically mutilating children.
There is no science that supports ending actual existing medical care for young people who are trans.
There's no science that supports using puberty blockers except to delay early puberty either but that doesn't stop your dumb ass from mouthing off now does it?
Wow, you made a tautology.
You should probably stop using words you don't understand the meaning of. Early puberty has a pretty specific definition, which is not, contrary to the idiocy you're spouting, disallowing the body to go through puberty indefinitely.
Nobody is ending medical care. There is a goal to end sterilization and unfixable damage to youths. That is an admirable goal.
You're ending rare side effects of particular treatments? Are you going to ban every treatment with a potential side effect? Cancer patients won't like that at all.
Sterilization is not a rare side effect. Nor is the inability to feel any sexual pleasure. Nor is the STILL sky-high suicide rates,
You are, of course, lying, and cynically pretending you care about trans suicide rates.
I feel terrible for children who have had adults convince them of things that are patently false.
If an adult tranny commits suicide, that is their issue, not mine.
You feel bad for the made-up thing, are indifferent with a touch of bigotry to actual things. You must be from the right.
I feel bad, yes, that adults convince children of false things. It is cruel and vicious.
False thing like what? Santa Claus? God?
In some states you can't get a tattoo until you are 18, yet you think the legislature is exceeding its authority by banning a 15 year old from getting elective surgery to to irreversibly mutilate their sex organs.
Why the rush? Certainly a couple of years of therapy while they sort out their adolescent or pre-adolescent angst seems the minimum preliminary to such radical surgery on a perfectly physically healthy minor.
You have people here that think its legally justified to ban conversion therapy, talk, while the legislature should have no power to ban conversion surgery for minors.
The rush is that gender dysphoria almost always resolves during puberty, whereas the treatment burns that bridge before they can cross it. So if you don’t start the treatment promptly the number of ‘transgenders’ shrinks dramatically. The really interesting question is why they’re so determined to maximize their numbers.
One of the reasons for the early treatment is the massive amount of money for the " pseudo medical profession"
Once you start the puberty blockers you have a lifetime patient
'almost always resolves during puberty'
I see you have stopped posting your 'proof' for this lie, since it completely contradicted not only your repeated lie but pretty much the entire thesis of the anti-trans movement, showing that most children who presented at gender clinics were NOT diagnosed as trans.
"The really interesting question is why they’re so determined to maximize their numbers."
The modern Dem party is a coalition of aggrieved minorities of various flavors. It's all about service to the party.
The modern Dem party is a coalition of minorities under relentless assault by Republicans and non-minorities who think these attacks are disgusting and dangerous.
‘Why the rush?’
Why do you think you have the right or the qualifications to decide whether a complete strangers are in need of a particular medical treatment or not?
'You have people here that think its legally justified to ban conversion therapy'
Here we enter the realm of 'the difference between actual medical treatments and dangerous quackery.'
"Why do you think you have the right or the qualifications to decide whether a complete strangers are in need of a particular medical treatment or not?"
Tell me more about gay conversion therapy.
Medical experts agree that it's abusive and damaging. Didn't you know?
I'm an expert and don't agree, where'd you do your medical training??
submit your paper edgenot and let's have a look
Nige-bot still angry he couldn't get in med school
It's the all-purpose "animus" argument: anyone who disagrees presumptively has "animus", therefore we automatically win and they automatically lose on all questions.
Exactly. "Why should we listen to haters?!"
"The argument is unlikely to fly with the current clowns of SCOTUS, but the political reality is that much state legislation that singles out transgendered persons to their detriment is born of animus — ..."
Claiming the prohibition on the castration of a healthy but gender confused 12-year-old boy is to his detriment is an assertion that fails to meet the straight face test.
Now if you claim that the financial detriment to the nut chopping butchers that do genital mutilation is due to animus, now you have a persuasive argument.
'is an assertion that fails to meet the straight face test.'
Gender affirming care for young people is the medically approved and proven treatment, which is what's being banned, despite your reductive appeal to squeamishness.
This is the exact same argument surrounding Covid protocols.
ONLY the government knew best. Questioning the Govt was dangerous to others
The Dr's in Australia that determined stomach ulcers were a bacterial infection were called quacks for years, Despite the fact they solved ulcers.
Sadly, during the 1990s and the Satanic Ritual Abuse panic and the Recovered Memory Therapy disgrace, we learned just how wrong therapists were. During that era, therapists promoted a nationwide quest to root out evidence of children being sexually abused by hidden Satanic cults. The memories of those experiences were suppressed by psychological mechanisms, but through a blend of hypnosis and careful questioning, therapists could bring those memories flooding back.
The explosion in gender dysphoria, can only be accounted for by seeing it as a social contagion.
It's not remotely the same argument. Covid protociols were put in place as emergency measures against a brand new strain of virus for which there was no vaccine and no established treatment. Emergency protocols and established treatments are not the same thing at all.
So, let me get this straight, the people creating a moral panic about a weird cult out to brainwash children into evil are invoking the Satanic Panic as proof of... what?
Covid protociols were put in place as emergency measures against a brand new strain of virus for which there was no vaccine
Different protocols than were ever used to deal with ALL previous viruses.
You are blind to all past history of world events, and the blind mistakes made.
a Big part of this debate is a simple exercise in risk benefit analysis.
Some are blind to the fact the children are not great at understanding their own feelings. That is why all societies make decisions FOR children. not the other way around.
There hasn't been a global pandemic like this since the Spainish Flu, so you'd hope protocols have been updated. One problem was they hadn't been updated ENOUGH, that there wasn't an agreed-upon international set of protocols.
so you’d hope protocols have been updated.
NEVER has any professional suggest the way to manage a virus was to quarantine the healthy. Because its stupid.
This is a very good law designed to protect minors from activists who want to justify permamently destroying the minors lives via the mutilation of their body.
It takes a special kind of evil to and stupidity to believe the current fad in transgender treatment provides a long term solution to those suffering a mental illness.
So what? Laws punishing rapists likewise are borne of anamas.
Rape is a crime. Making an inherent identity a crime is unquestionably fascist.
I am not sure of the correct word, but fascist isn’t it.
How about political standard operating procedure, othering of small groups interior to the nation, or larger ones exterior, to preen as the savior blocking their evil?
Fascist, for short.
(To my mind, anyway.)
What a fantastic concept 'Parent's Rights' is. When needed to support extreme right wing views like book banning and that parents not professional educators should control education content, the support for Parent's Rights by the extremists is unconditional and not to be challenged.
But when the concept is used to support something that policy wise is contrary to what the haters of non-binary individuals support, wow, Parent's Rights has force. Instead it is what big government, coercive government, government intervention in individual health care wants to do that rules.
Catch 22 has nothing on this anti-freedom garbage.
If you think “professional educators” should have more say over how children are raised and taught than their parents, well guess what. You’re not the pro-liberty side here. Empowering the state is not an act of liberty.
There’s a huge and important difference between parents and your professional educators. Parents generally love their children and wants what is in their best interest. Professional educators don’t, at least not the first part.
And you think that armature play doctors in the statehouses should have more say over children medical care then actual doctors and parents.
I said no such thing.
But you felt like arguing that point with someone so you attributed to me. Unfortunately, what I said is right there and it doesn’t mention anybody in statehouses.
Address what I said, not what you wish I’d said.
What about doctors and parents who want compassionate sexual orientation affirming care for their little gay kid who doesn't want to be gay?
No such care exists.
Yes, it does.
No, just bigoted abuse posing as quackery.
and not like the "Actual " doctors chopping off normal dicks, balls, tits, make Mucho Dinero from chopping off perfectly normal Dicks/balls/Tits (you know, usually in medicine, you send the Surgical Space-a-man to Pathology to confirm the Appendix, Ovary, Breast, Ball, you cut out needed to be cut out)
Please. This is a disingenuous argument. Not a single person who makes it thinks that 'conversion therapy' for gay children should be allowed.
If you think “professional educators” should have more say over how children are raised and taught than their parents, well guess what. You’re not the pro-liberty side here.
If you think parents who want their children to be taught that superstition trumps science; that storks deliver babies; that the Confederates weren’t a bunch of bigoted traitors and loses; that science should be suppressed to flatter silly dogma; that adrenochrome harvesting is a major problem; that Trump won the 2020 election; that the Bible is nonfiction; that gays are perverts; that evolution is a satanic plot (and Biblical creationism is true); and that the moon is made of green cheese should have more say over the education of those children than professional educators, you are a fucking idiot and a disgusting culture war reject who has nothing to contribute to reasoned debate among competent adults.
And, of course, a conservative Republican and an important part of the Volokh Conspiracy’s target audience.
"Bigoted traitors and loses"???
for a "Reverend" you can't even edit yourself??
OK, I'm not a "Reverend" is it OK for a "Reverend" to edit himself??
(Edit myself every day, OK, miss a day once in a while, but then it's so much better "Editing" the day after)
It's A-holes like you that made the Civil Wah last so long...
Frank "We now return you back to Kinder/Gentler Frank"
Don't feed the trollish comments, it's completely not worth it. "Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it." - Samuel Clemens
The Revered has this bi-polar tendency to either make a rational comment, or to just dump his biases on the floor in a big pile and then stand back and admire his work.
When he's in dump mode, it's best to not encourage him with a response.
'If you think “professional educators” should have more say over how children are raised and taught than their parents, well guess what.'
I don't know what you think you're referencing here, but this bans treatment regardless of the parents' support or opposition.
Indeed, in the face of parental support.
Lol. I posted almost the same thing before I read your post.
Artlcle 26 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Question for folks who believe that parents should be allowed to authorize this treatment:
Castration before puberty has been show to have certain medical benefits, such as increasing longevity, decreasing the risk of certain cancers, etc.
Do parents of non-trans children have a constitutional right to have their boys castrated in order to realize these benefits?
I hear it makes them better singers also.
Who are we to deny these parents their right to raise great singers?
Obvious follow-up question, with religious discrimination sidecar: female "circumcision".
'Do parents of non-trans children have a constitutional right to have their boys castrated in order to realize these benefits?'
You people are freaks. Genuinely. You don't give a shit about kids.
Suddenly the people against castrating children are the freaks? I wonder if people like Nige ever think, "Are we the baddies?"
You're the one making *this* proposal, yet another false equivalence. Your weird fantasies get let out at any excuse.
I'm not making any proposal. Apparently you're among the people who think parents should be allowed to have their children castrated because they think it will help with gender dysphoria, but not for other medical benefits? Care to explain the apparent contradiction?
There is no contradiction. There is no treatment such as you propose. If you were to propose one as a performative act, I would not be surprised. Probably as a part of conversion therapy. There's no end to the harm you'll inflict on kids to get at trans people.
You're claiming castration doesn't exist? I know you guys are big on denying reality, but come on!
So again, do parents have a right to have their boys castrated so they can get the associated medical benefits, such as longevity, reduction of risk of certain cancers, etc.?
No such treatment exists. Children are just props to you, aren't they?
I wonder if they think deaf parents should be allowed to ruin the hearing of their children?
Did you think this analogy through?
It's like the concept of 'consent' around sexual assault. They refuse to understand because their arguments depend on not understanding.
Do you not see a parallel between ruining properly functioning body parts and ruining properly functioning body parts?
They came for the blacks and I said nothing
Then they came for the women and I said nothing
Then they came for the gays and I said nothing
Then they finally came for me....
You hayseed bigots know the rest of the saying
I'm not a hayseed bigot, so don't know it.
and what an Internet tough guy, lets see you say that to
a Hayseed in person. You'll get some "Gender Affirming Care" free of charge.
Yeah, parents have rights related to upbringing of children, but those rights don't automatically extend to carving up or drugging the children. Is that really so confusing or vexing to you?
You care a lot about scoring culture war points and not much about protecting children.
You circumcised, Ben?
If a state wanted to restrict or regulate or ban such a procedure, there's no explicit language in the constitution that clearly prevents the state from doing it. A very specific case would have to be made, with very specific arguments, and it would probably be a narrow decision, carefully reasoned on both sides.
You can pretend "parents can do whatever they want, lol" is written in the constitution somewhere. The rest of us don't have to pretend that. When you grow up you'll understand.
There is it explicit language about expressive association either. Don’t cherry pick your standards.
Absent explicit language, decisions aren’t "automatic". See above where I said that.
No "standards" mentioned at all. Stop trolling.
If you want expressive association to be a thing, your explicit language nonsense is a bad idea.
You're basically talking to imaginary people living inside your head now. The rest of us can't hear them. Posting only one side of your conversation with them isn't super meaningful.
You prefer them that way?
Yeah. I'll do anything for a nickel
'don’t automatically extend to carving up or drugging the children'
Most parents want their kids to get the medical treatments they need. Unless they're Christian Scientists.
Removing healthy body parts isn't medical treatment.
The body parts aren't 'healthy.' They're causing suffering and distress due to the dysphoria. It has been shown over and over again that the procedures help the individuals treated.
So if a little girl is upset because she thinks her breasts are too small, that makes her small breasts unhealthy? What a wierd way to look at the world.
The fact that you have to keep conflating different things shows you know exactly how wrong you are.
That 100% comparable situations baffle you so indicate how little effort you spent into what your "position" is.
That you use a seperate sensitive problem that some young girls grapple with as a jokey prop for dumb analogies demonstrates how little you actually care about young people and their problems, and how much you shy away from the core issues.
They are both body dysmorphia. Sorry if this is a revelation to you.
It seems weird to have to point out something so obvious, but different dysmorphias are different and require different treatments and approaches. This is how we know you don't actually care about any of these kids.
A total 180 degree reversal? Nah, that does not pass the logic test.
We do not tell anorexics that they really are fat. Also should not tell boys that they REALLY are girls, even if they cannot be one. Genetics are a bitch sometimes.
You. Do. Not. Treat. Different. Conditions. The. Same. Way.
Normal Breasts, Balls, Dicks aren't "Healthy"
pretty sure if yours were lopped off you'd have a beef to file.
Frank "Hands off Cuba! (and my Balls)
edgebot has heard of these things called 'bodies.'
Nigebot regrets having his balls cut off.
edgebot's freaky fantasies
Plastic surgeons advertise breast reduction surgery to female athletes.
On another blog I made a joke about the MSG Sphere in Vegas saying I’ve seen quite a few large manmade spherical objects in Vegas…they generally come in pairs. ;). And this one guy was with his lady friend that was so out of proportion while wearing a skimpy dress that she got more attention than the pop stars we saw during that trip to Vegas.
It has not. There are a handful of very crappy studies that mostly don't even say what advocates claim they say.
They're the only studies available, the only data we have.
When needed to support extreme right wing views like book banning and that parents not professional educators should control education content,
You left out the "professional educators" are agents of Government.
The People are participating in self governing. But you and the radical leftists, hate the idea of a self governing populace.
its telling that you resort to accusing conservatives of being haters when activists what to impose a barbaric treatment on vunerable young individuals
Barbaric?? it's "Care", "Gender Affirming" Care!!!!!!!!!
just like the Klan used to "Affirm the Gender" of those Uppity Young Black Males who talked to white women. Get with the program!!!
Frank
Wow. Two Republican judges decided that criminalizing giving children appropriate and accepted medical treatment is legal. Color me surprised. It is odd how "parents rights" is so important when it comes to banning books and outing LGBT kids, but suddenly not at all important when it comes to providing them medical care. It almost leads one to believe that Republicans are just transphobic asses.
No, parents' rights are vital to preventing woke interference.
Are you going to come out in favor of amputating the limbs of kids identify as Super(wo)man?
Kids are by definition too young to give consent to genital mutilation, even when coached by woke teachers. Used to be accepted dogma, by almost everyone, that African female genital mutilation was an abomination. Why is it suddenly mandatory that teachers preach this stuff behind parents' backs, and even illegal in WA and CA for parents to not mutilate their kids just because some woke teacher brainwashed them without the parents' consent or even knowledge?
Are you so racist that it's abominable for Africans but mandatory for whites?
Does the superstitious bullshit angle create an exemption for certain circumcisions in your mind?
Carry on, clingers. Guys like me will let you know how far and how long, as usual.
Jerry Sandusky, ladies and germs,
got to where he his today by going "Far and long"
Woke interference!
Sounds like outside agitators to me. Lets not check if that's going on. And certainly lets not check into who is objecting to library books these days.
The key is to rationalize everything as required to own the libs. I mean protect from Woke Interference.
Wow. Just such a tellingly awful rationalization for...just about any moralizing law you care to mention.
What to you think, Sarcastro. Do parents have a constitutional right to castrate non-trans kids to reduce the risk of testicular cancer?
And instead of rebutting the specific case at issue, you just throw out random insults. Very useful dodge!
Yeah, I think the case is fine. I write about that above.
I'm attacking your 'parents’ rights are vital to preventing woke interference' which is a rationalization as flexible as 'for the children' is.
No one knows what woke means. It's just reifying right-wing anger at whatever. You're going one step beyond and making it into a full-on secret conspiracy of wokesters or something.
Not that their agenda is clear. Gotta keep it flexible to allow everyone on the right to use it, and of course to keep occluded what views of yours are being reified.
Oh, you know the ones.
You almost make a cogent argument with parents and genital mutilation. But as usual, your racist brain came at it the wrong way. Genital mutilations in Africa are religious decrees to keep women low. Often without the consent of the little girls.
The surgical procedures in Tennessee are medical treatments for dysphoria that all parties agree on. You've likely never had sexual dysphoria so, in your ignorance, you don't consider it a disease.
So you are speaking from experience?
Now do circumcision!
What permanent harm comes from circumcision?
There are no medical drawbacks, and minor medical benefits. Not even intactivists can produce any evidence that social-sexual behaviors or performance are impacted negatively (or positively, for that matter).
I've missed my Foreskin...
Umm, like never, as a Physician I've had to (sadly) examine Male
s "Twig & Berries" Foreskin threw me off at first, "What is this skin over the Dick??"and then threw up later, as the umm "Secretions" that solidify there (formalized as "Smegma" which smells as bad as it sounds) would make Hercules tear up...
Frank
There are risks for both procedures. Don’t be reductive.
How are you drawing your line?
Unless you are including malpractice and the like, there is no 'risk' to circumcision. I'll ask again, what permanent harm comes from circumcision?
Stop trying to distract from the question.
If you wish to ban them, you are free to make your argument. Or provide any studies showing any harm for them. It's been thousands of years. You can, hopefully, find one that matches your beliefs.
Why do you keep conflating a cultural/religious practice with a medical one?
Explain how having your High School Daughter take her Birth Control Pills (Don't even think it, "Trust but Contracept" is my philosophy) required a Doctor's Note, Parents Permission, but lopping off her Tits (No Homo, but my Daughters have some nice Tits) Ovaries/Labia is entirely on them???
Daughter #2 got "Corn Rows" for crying out loud..
Frank
edgebot needs someone to explain things
Nigebot regrets having his balls cut off.
edgebot dreams
There's nothing medical about child mutilation.
Large breasts are a nuisance!
No Ifs, ands or Butts,
well maybe a few Butts, Big Ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, there isn't. Gender affirming care, on the other hand, is an established medical treatement.
So was blood letting/trephination/Estrogen Replacement Therapy, until it wasn't,
Seriously, leave medicine to the experts, your Liberal Arts Ed-jew-ma-cation is showing.
Frank
"Two Republican judges decided that criminalizing giving children appropriate and accepted medical treatment is legal. Color me surprised. It is odd how “parents rights” is so important when it comes to banning books and outing LGBT kids, but suddenly not at all important when it comes to providing them medical care."
It's not appropriate and accepted in Tennessee, in fact it's illegal. And there are limits to parent's rights. We don't let parents allow people to have sex with their children, for example. Do you disagree with that?
Of course there are limits. That was the point being made. Many on the right cry "parent's rights" in bad faith when some government is taking an action with which they disagree. It's all about their disagreement, not some overarching principle like parent's rights.
In this particular case, I don't know much about the medical issues involved with transgender minors. But in general I'm much more inclined to trust the opinion of a doctor over Tennessee legislators.
I don't think anybody supports unlimited parents rights. Usually people argue that parents have a right to know how their children are identifying at school because parents need to know stuff like that to fillfull their parental responsibilities. But that doesn't mean we have to allow parents to remove healthy body parts from their children.
Yes, I get that. It's always a question of degree, or line drawing. How much should parental rights be limited, and under what circumstances. That's why these discussions can sometimes be so annoying, as one side or the other brings out some principle like parental rights as if it is an absolute concept that trumps all other considerations. For instance in comments here about parents having the ability to object to books in school libraries, or to this or that topic in school curricula.
But in general I’m much more inclined to trust the opinion of a doctor over Tennessee legislators.
Your experience includes living through the Covid scam, any you still trust random Doctors?
No one has presented any scenario where waiting a couple years for starting what ever the," then adult" wants, causes any harm. The person can live exactly like he wants.
This will open the door for 15 year old girls with the power to get breast implants. AND tatoos, and piercings. Either children can make the decisions or they cant. Alcohol use would have to be on the table.
I don't necessarily trust random doctors, but I do trust MY doctors. My kids are grown now, but if one of them had been struggling with these types of gender issues, and my pediatrician felt the best treatment was something my state government had now outlawed, I would've been glad to have the resources to move to another state. Yes, I would take my pediatrician's advice over a state legislature, or from an anonymous person on the internet, even one with the intelligence and taste to read and comment on the VC.
'Your experience includes living through the Covid scam, any you still trust random Doctors?'
More so than anyone who says covid was some sort of scam.
Accepted medical treatment?
Why did the UK's national health service limit the use of puberty blocking drugs to a research only basis?
England Limits Use of Puberty-Blocking Drugs to Research Only - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/health/puberty-blockers-transgender-children-britain-nhs.html
An anti-trans hate campaign similar to the US one aimed at a right-wing government set on undermining the NHS and weaponising the same anti-woke nonsense to distract from the mess they've made of the country.
Actually they undertook a review after several people that transitioned as minors said they regretted the decision and felt the staff at Tavistock rushed her in to irreversible treatments:
"There were rising referrals and a long waiting list but at the same time some former staff were raising concerns about the way it operated.
Then, former patient Keira Bell went to court saying she had not been challenged enough about her decision at 16 to take drugs that began her transition from female to male - a decision she later regretted.
Earlier this year, Dr Cass's report said there was a lack of understanding about why the type of patients the clinic was seeing was changing, with more female to male patients and more autistic children. Dr Cass also highlighted inconclusive evidence to back some of the clinical decision making."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62335665
Denying other children badly needed care because one person regretted it after the fact is insane. The faults at Tavistock were that the kids who needed the proper care weren’t getting it. The usual right wing monsters jumped all over it with the usual lies and distortions and hatred, and now it’s harder for the kids to get the care they need.
I love that you believe ONE person led to a government overturning their entire policy.
Do you know how silly that is?
I love how dumb you're willing to act to grope for a gotcha that wasn't worth acting dumb for.
Nigebots feelings hurt
edgebot tries to grok 'feelings'
"Denying other children badly needed care because one person regretted it after the fact is insane."
Your citation of the "badly needed care" was, I'm sure, an omission by accident.
How peculiar that someone so opinionated on the subject would be so completely ignorant of the medical treatments they're trying to ban.
They are not medical treatments. Cash grabs AT BEST.
Oh, now you're bewailing the privatised health care system. Weird how it often comes down to you guys demanding healthcare be socialised.
I have to wonder if English is your third language. You seem incapable of comprehension.
Are you or are you not decrying the for-profit healthcare system?
You're not helping your cause of not looking like a zealot.
Initial response removed because I thought you were replying to a different comment.
Sadly, no. It's all quite true. Not much clear water between what US Republicans and UK Conservatives are willing to do.
MollyGodiva 1 day ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Wow. Two Republican judges decided that criminalizing giving children appropriate and accepted medical treatment is legal. "
No its not appropriate and accepted medical treatment - its activists pushing a dangerous long term fad treatment for those suffering a mental illness.
Does anyone think the same Supreme Court that just said a state can ban abortion is going to say states CAN"T ban the sexual mutilation (or "gender-affirming care", if you prefer that absurd euphemism) of children?
Alito in the Dobbs opinion wrote "Abortion destroys what those decisions call 'potential life' and what the law at issue in this case regards as the life of an 'unborn human being'." Not quite the same argument here, where the argument is over what is best for an individual. And of course right-wingers frequently care nothing about born human beings. Consistency with Dobss would not clearly call for overruling parents and doctors in every case.
But, sure, the conservatives on the Supreme Court don't value previous decisions or consistency, and would likely support the political wishes of right-wingers here. Way to say the quiet part out loud, F.D. Wolf!
Indeed. I realize in your worldview, everyone who disagrees with you is evil and always has nefarious motives, while those who agree with you are good and pure of heart. The idea of good-faith disagreement is a completely alien concept to you.
Nevertheless, the consistency with Dobbs will be that these decisions will be left to the individual states acting through the people's elected representatives.
the consistency with Dobbs will be that these decisions will be left to the individual states acting through the people’s elected representatives.
Which is true of literally every decision that fails to find a right. What a weak rejoinder to the inconsistency Magister noted.
Magister didn’t note any inconsistency.
The Daniel Webster of the comments section grades my argument yet again. Many thanks.
I understand how you and the rest of the indistinguishable leftist commentators feel on this issue and how you wish the Supreme Court would rule on it, but, as is obvious to anyone at least half-grounded in reality, your wishes will very likely not be realized.
And when that decision inevitably comes, you can (and will) complain and dismiss their reasoning too.
I am taking issue with your comment. Though thanks for comparing me to Webster. No, the other Webster.
If you think the liberals on here are indistinguishable, that's you not reading much.
For instance, I think this case is correct. I said so an hour ago. But why bother to read when you have a box all ready for me?
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/07/08/tennessee-ban-on-sexual-identity-related-medical-procedures-for-minors-is-likely-constitutional/?comments=true#comment-10145087
Here are two incontrovertible facts:
Human sex is immutable.
Sexual orientation is mutable.
Now the Left:
When a little boy says "I feel like a girl". The Left offers chemical castrations, genital amputations, and cross-sex hormone treatments and calls anyone who opposes it "transphobic".
When a little boy says "I don't want to like boys, I want to like girls like normal people". The Left says "FUCK YOU LITTLE GAY KID WE WILL ARREST ANYONE WHO TRIES TO HELP YOU, FUCK YOU AND YOUR IDENTITY."
It's Satanic inversion.
Sexual orientation is mutable??
BCD, when did you "choose" to be heterosexual? What criteria did you use to make the "choice"?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Don’t know about BCD, but it was circa 1970/71 when “Fantastic Voyage” was the NBC “Movie of the Week” and I wasn’t beating my meat thinking of Donald Pleasance’s beautiful chin
Frank
If BCD ever made a choice regarding his sexual orientation, he choose homosexual, which is why his posts are filled with self-loathing projection towards the dicks in asses he wishes he could enjoy.
This is such a neat concept you people have constructed.
If someone doesn't like the homosexual lifestyle, they are secretly homosexual!!
I don't like Jews. Am I secretly a Jew and desire to drink the blood of Christian children?
I don't like ghetto blacks. Am I secretly desiring a low-rider and to kill Whitey?
I don't like Democrats. Am I secretly desiring for the State Elites to control every part of my life?
Not Kind or Gentle!!!! C'mon EV!!!!!!
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/gay-and-lesbian-well-being/201105/sexual-orientation-is-it-unchangeable
https://www.sciencealert.com/sexual-orientation-continues-to-change-right-through-our-teens-and-into-adulthood
Why are you Leftists always so ignorant of the facts? Your braintenders needed orientation to be immutable so they could get everyone to accept homosexual lifestyles and to legally protect it as a class. So they told you it was, and you just went right along and accepted it as fact.
There are plenty more links but this comment will get filtered if I post too many. A simple google search yields many results.
When did you "choose" your orientation, BCD?
Before you made that "choice", were you able to suck dick and eat pussy with equal degrees of enthusiasm?
Why are you a science denier?
Tap dance around the question to your heart's content. When did you "choose" your sexual orientation?
I'll answer your question after you answer this:
What do the data say, and reality says, about the fluidity of sexual orientation?
Well, there are a good number of "ex-straights." Very few ex-gays. And a boatload of folks linked to opposite sex partners who indulge in same sex coupling on the downlow.
You are conflating different concepts -- fluidity and base sexual orientation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fluidity Being creatures of free will, humans can engage in a variety of sexual behaviors without the hard wired orientation changing.
So you didn’t read any of the links I provided that show orientation does change?
Will you at least read the second sentence in your own link? The part that says "but some research indicates that some people may experience change in their sexual orientation"
Context matters, BCD. Your cherry picked language is part of the following:
Quit dancing around the maypole and answer the questions I have posed to you above. What in your background do you have to hide?
None of your “context” altered the meaning of that statement, nor refuted my original claim that sexual orientation is mutable.
Nor made your incorrect beliefs about sexual orientation correct.
Will you update your false beliefs about orientation not changing given the facts?
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/sexual-fluidity-and-the-diversity-of-sexual-orientation-202203312717
Regarding your question: If I wanted to change my orientation, I would simply go to prison since that has been shown to be causative in altering sexual orientation.
BCD, you should probably give up -- he's going to bitterly cling to "most people", and missing the difference between choices and changes, as "proof" that sexual orientation is immutable. You led that horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
The "meaning of that statement," however, is not that it is a choice.
Frankie's Cuttin In! ("Eastbound & Down" reference)
Again, 1970/1971, not so much a "Choice" as a "Realization" that I was more turned on by Raquel Welch than Ernest Borgnine.
And as much as I like Hot Dogs (Kosher of course, OK, not always, hey, Pork tastes Good...)
Remember at Boy Scout Summer Camp circa 1973, the "Senior" Scouts ("Scouts" some of these guys were in their 20's, what Heterosexual Guy in his right mind wants to go to a Boy Scout Summer Camp in North Dakota with a bunch of 13-15 year olds)
One of the bullies made us fellate the Hog Dogs before we got to eat them, Oh, you're a tough guy, nothing could make you fellate a Hot Dog against your will?? yeah right.
Was so happy when we moved to Virginia and the nearest Scout Troop that wasn't in N-word town was too far for me to attend...
Frank " A Scout is Trustworthy (not to tell about his sexual abuse) Loyal (See Trustworthy)......
It's weird and freakish how much raw hatred of children you people express via your straw-man proxies.
Michelle Bachman’s husband did gay conversion therapy…it doesn’t work!
with her grating voice??? She'd make Brad Pitt go Queer.
You don’t have to marry her in the first place…but if seeing a vagina makes you nauseous then she’s the right wife for you!! 😉
Wonder how many parents want their children to have “gender affirming” care to check off a box on their virtue signaling card. Consider that parents already force their kids into sports they don’t want to play, beauty contests for kids who can hardly walk yet, etc. to either relive their glory days or get affirmation from their social group.
‘Wonder how many parents want their children to have “gender affirming” care to check off a box on their virtue signaling card’
Luckily there's an exhaustive screening procedure before a kid can be even diagnosed as trans.
"Luckily there’s an exhaustive screening procedure before a kid can be even diagnosed as trans."
Which may take less than two hours to complete.
Two hours per session is a lot.
Two hours...total.
And some take less than an hour.
Where does this occur? There are lots of trans people living with endless delays and jumping through hoops to access treatment, I'm sure they'd love to know.
I’d love to see a single trannie who had the problem.
Plenty of people who regret their decisions discuss how quick the choices were made. Matt Walsh got approved in less than half an hour with a nurse lying about what he said (he said he was not gender dysmorphic and she noted he was). Kaiser is being sued over their barely-existent care as we speak.
I'd love to see you relate to a trans person as an actual human being, not the hate-constructed effigy guilty of a modern blood libel you require to drive your political goals.
Matt Welsh lying proves that Matt Welsh lies, as if any more proof were needed.
I'd love to see you relate to a critic in a similar way, but that is not happening. Adult trannies are just off-putting and weird and nobody takes them seriously. Literally nobody. Children brainwashed into being trannies are tragic tales who are traditionally the victim of massive Munchausen by Proxy syndrome and moronic "educational professionals" who do not have the skill to do anything, including teach. But they DO find it necessary to discuss their fetishes with children.
'Adult trannies are just off-putting and weird'
God forbid I call you a bigot for that, eh?
'Children brainwashed'
Doesn't happen. Creepy fantasy, part of the bigotry.
Blood libel - 'these evil degenerates are coming for your children.'
You can call me what you wish.
Why do you think straight men do not date transwomen at all? Or straight women date transmen? Why do they have to try and GUILT lesbians into dating transwomen?
Because EVERYBODY knows they are NOT men and women. Unattractive and off-putting mental patients, but not men nor women, no matter how much they whine and complain that they are not treated as what they are not.
It is an attempt at brain washing. They absolutely are targeting children. You defend it (you, likely, have no children unlike me) which is a sad sign for you. But people have believed horrible things in the past. You are just one of a long historical trend.
'Why do you think straight men do not date transwomen at all?'
Citation missing
'Because EVERYBODY knows'
Citation missing
'It is an attempt at brain washing'
Citation missing
'But people have believed horrible things in the past.'
Self-reflection missing
Nige-bot tripping on Peyote...
"Exhaustive Screening Procedure"????
yeah, right, it's called a "Wallet Biopsy" which is why you don't see many Medicaid patients getting elective castrations.
Frank
You mean like the E Trade "Money out the Wazoo" commercial?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oftjwYmlfoA
edgebot imitates, longs for socialised healthcare
Nope. That's the propaganda, and of course some doctors may do that, but there is no actual requirement anywhere of such. The original guidelines developed in Europe required six+ months of observation and therapy before making such a diagnosis, but it turned out that activists don't really want that, and thus in many cases the diagnoses are made after a brief consultation.
Is that actually going on?
Sounds bad.
“Injustice: How the Sex Offender Registry Destroys LGBT Rights”https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2016/8/05/injustice-how-sex-offender-registry-destroys-lgbtq-rights
That’s weird. Apparently it's a Gay Right to not have to register if you're a sex offender.
That’s not what the article points out. It points out being gay gets you this sentence more often than if straight and the same crime, e.g. being 18 and having sex with a 17 year old.
Of course, some states have Romeo and Juliet laws, which allow sex between young people as long as they are no more than 3 years apart. Which, btw, is explicitely denied to gays in Texas, but allowed for straight.
To rephrase your observation, the article suggests being gay should have no worse punishment for the same crimes as being straight. Is this idea wrong?
Consistent with Jacobson v. Massachussetts and Buck v. Bell
Evangeline Lilly's opinions on bodily autonomy are not the supreme law of the land.
Notice that the hypocrites never explain the dichotomy where parents rights work for when they want parents rights and do not work when they want the government to make health care decisions for children. And notice the bold assertion of facts with no supporting evidence. Call it what you will, just don't call it conservatism/libertarianism cause it ain't,
I don't think that's really some kind of gotcha. "Parents have the right to direct the upbringing of their children and make decisions for them, up to the point where those decisions pose a significant risk of serious harm to the children."
Thus, parents can, e.g., raise their kids as vegans but can't refuse to feed them entirely so that they become malnourished. No hypocritical dichotomy.
Things have changed. My big conflict was mom wouldn't let me Switch Hit (Baseball! Baseball!) because I was mediocre at best left handed and would be worse on my non-dominant side.
She was right!
Frank
Parental rights work when real, conservative men and women are raising traditional families. Not when degenerates are playing house pretending to raise children.
Why is it that Eugene's post gets over 100 comments while Jonathan's get a bit over 10?
Paraphrasing what I said in the Adler's post, Sutton reaches the conclusion there is not sex discrimination by framing the medical procedures as 1) estrogen for use in transitioning and 2) testosterone for use in transitioning. He then observes there isn't sex discrimination because each procedure can only be used by one sex.
That reasoning strikes me as flawed. The medical procedure is hormonal treatments and the dissent is correct that natal-sex boys can get testosterone treatments for any reason while natal-sex girls cannot for transitioning.
See EV's "Update" above. A failure to communicate and the short attention span of VC commenters Always drawn to the top of the posts (unless it's Somin or Blackman.
Reading the actual text of the law, boys can't get testosterone treatments for "any" purpose, any more than girls can get estrogen for "any" purpose. Neither can get "hormones" for purposes of 'gender change'.
"(a)
(1) A healthcare provider shall not knowingly perform or offer to perform on a minor, or administer or offer to administer to a minor, a medical procedure if the performance or administration of the procedure is for the purpose of:
(A) Enabling a minor to identify with, or live as, a purported identity inconsistent with the minor's sex; or
(B) Treating purported discomfort or distress from a discordance between the minor's sex and asserted identity."
"A person shall not knowingly provide a hormone or puberty blocker by any means to a minor if the provision of the hormone or puberty blocker is not in compliance with this chapter."
If boys can get testosterone treatments and girls can't, that facially discriminates on the basis of sex. The purpose of the treatment should play no part in this part of the analysis. Instead, the state can argue banning a particular purpose overcomes intermediate scrutiny.
Girls could get testosterone treatments for a legitimate purpose, just as boys could get estrogen treatments for a legitimate purpose. It's just that said legitimate purposes are all but non-existent.
Thankfully squeezing my penis between my thighs and singing “Happy Birthday Mr. President” is protected by the 1A!
You have begged the question as to whether testosterone treatments for girls, and estrogen treatments for boys, are legitimate. That determination should be made as part of the analysis of whether the state meets its intermediate scrutiny burden, and “because Brett said so” is not evidence.
I said that the legitimate purposes were "all but" non-existent. In fact, they exist, they're just very rare.
One thing they don't do, though, is consult *you,* or *any* of you, as to whether the treatment is appropriate or not.
Nige-bot crying like a little Bee-otch
can edgebots cry
there's no crying in baseball (except maybe Red Sox fans)
edgebot barred from baseball
"If boys can get testosterone treatments and girls can’t, that facially discriminates..."
If sick people can get narcotics and healthy people can't, that facially discriminates ...
Dumb.
Your hypothetical does not discriminate on the basis of sex or any other classification that triggers heightened scrutiny.
Just as it's sex discrimination for hospitals to deny hysterectomies to males. They do hysterectomies for females.
As Judge Sutton pointed out, it's not sex discrimination if a treatment can only be given to one sex. But in this case, both estrogen and testosterone can be given to girls and boys. So to deny the treatment to only one sex is sex discrimination.
That’s pretty transphobic of you and Judge Sutton. It's not just bonus-holed people who can get hysterectomies.
It's not being denied to only one sex, it's being denied for illegitimate purposes.
I've had to give up on my detailed explanation, it won't post, but there ARE legitimate, non-'transitioning', reasons for prescribing testosterone to women, or estrogen to men. They're just largely inapplicable to minors, because they are either treating low-libido, (And why would that be a concern in a minor, eh?) or preventing long term consequences, where puberty is likely to resolve the relevant deficiency before they can appear.
So the idea that girls can't have testosterone, or boys estrogen, under this law, is simply wrong. It's just that the relevant circumstances would be very, very rare.
"And why would that be a concern in a minor, eh?"
Ask the Rev. Kirkland. He likes to groom little boys, all while Randal and LawTalkingGuy film.
From the dissent:
That's a false construction.
No boy goes to the doctor and gets testosterone prescribed so he feels more like a boy.
When Trump does these sorts of legal stretches, you people say it's illegal to have these sorts of ideas.
"Under Tennessee’s law, someone identified male at birth could take puberty blockers consistent with a treatment plan that contemplates development consistent with a male identity, but someone identified female at birth could not."
And that would be because a female isn't a male. In a female, "development consistent with a 'male identity' is a disease state.
Yeah, you can take these drugs to restore normal function, but not to take normal function and render it abnormal. That's pretty much the way all regulated drugs are treated.
You think it is a disease state, but "Brett said so" does not suffice to overcome intermediate scrutiny.
Weird how large doses of testosterone in male bodies, designed to deal with it specifically, cause massive health problems (which is why steroids are illegal). The impact of testosterone on the East German women's athletics teams are pretty well-known as well.
You want to sentence children to a life sentence that they cannot overcome and before they are even slightly able to agree to it intelligently.
Almost as if there's a difference between medically prescribed treatments for particular conditions and taking stuff without medical supervision purely to enhance physical performance.
What you wish happens does not happen. Keep on peddling the nonsense Dr. Money did for years.
'What you wish happens does not happen'
Non sequiter
There's no legitimate argument that the Constitution proscribes a law like this.
It's very simple. If the founders or drafters of the 14th Amendment, as applicable, would have said that your interpretation is bullshit, it is.
"UPDATE: I hadn't realized that Jonathan Adler had posted about this before me; see his post and its comments"
And you call yourselves a conspiracy.
Clever
Court: States can ban lobotomies on minors.
Crazy people: BUT I THOUGHT YOU CARED ABOUT PARENTAL RIGHTS111!
You clearly don't, when you support political actors exploiting an issue for political gain superseding the overwhelming expert medical consensus.
Let me know when every major medical organization supports lobotomies and there's rafts of studies showing long term effectiveness and safety.
Even if it was harmful, so is forcing children to work, yet the party so concerned about protecting kids is rolling back child labor laws too.
Overwhelming medical opinion has proven to be useless recently.
Tell me more about COVID and how the virus originated in bats.
Didn't the latest smoking gun that proved the lab leak theory turn out to be yet another load of unsourced GOP rubbish? I'd say GOP opinion has proven useless recently, but has it ever been anything else?
Nige-bot pretending he's a Virologist when he can't tell XX from XY.
edgebot using words
"Overwhelming medical opinion" has taken a distinctly racist turn lately, especially in the US. See the semi-recent discussion here on screening for kidney disease and prioritization for kidney transplants — US medical institutions switched to a less-accurate predictor for kidney disease because they wanted to remove a race-based correction factor.
Did you mean forcing, or allowing?
The "scientific consensus" was very much in favor of lobotomies in 1949 when the creator won a Nobel Prize.
That you think medicine is now perfect will just expose you as a fool when transing the kids is, appropriately, viewed as a 2020s faddish abomination on part with the lobotomy of the 1940s.
Conservatives just make it up as they go along. Parental rights, state's rights, originalism.
Tell me, how long have you believed a man could become a real authentic woman just by the power of his thought alone?
Trans women don't consider themselves cisgender. That's why they call themselves trans.
But they do consider themselves real authentic women.
When did you adopt that belief too?
Since “real authentic woman” are your words, and you’re referring to female from birth, then no, they do not consider themselves that. That is what they refer to as cisgender, distinct from trans women.
Current leaderboard shows Nige far ahead in the number of bullshit posts in this thread.
The lead seems to be insurmountable.
There's waves of bullshit alright, but not from me. You people cynically posture about protecting children, inventing groomer fantasies that provide cover for the real groomers, distract from the real dangers to young people. Where's all the horror and outrage about the young people that get trafficked via the US foster care system? And not just in Florida, though that is an egregious example. It's like knowing full well that institutional abuse is occurring and ongoing, but ignoring it in favour of hatemongering for political power.
Nige-bot getting emotional after seeing Sally Struthers commercial.
edgebot's only emotion is laughing about child abuse
Says the Homo who things cutting off little boy's dicks is a medical treatment.
edgebot sad, repetitive, basic
Nige-bot cannot sense Irony
Grey boxes are a wonderful thing.
I am surprised that any state’s medical licensing board allows physicians to prescribe care that reverses and removes normal, healthy bodily function. For example, the very concept of a puberty “blocker” just seems facially unhealthy, it is intentionally doing harm to a person’s normal development.
Well, the counter-argument might be that we have to do harm to this one part of the body (puberty) in order to not do harm to this other part (emotional state). But I don’t buy that at all. The body and the mind aren’t separate things, they are a unity. “Cutting off your nose to spite your face” obviously still leaves you with a cut-up person — and I can’t imagine that would be considered medical “care” in any sense of the word.
I know this is a legal blog, so we are typically concerned only with issues that have developed enough to not only be codified into law, but to have reached a court to resolve a dispute. But it seems to me that this kind of category error, of allowing harm to go under the guise of care, has to really be dealt with much further upstream. By the time it gets to a legal question, it may be far too late to actually resolve it.
Circumcision called, he wants his foreskin back.
I went to take a whiz and on my way back I heard my son squall. It was 1976. He had just been born and the fatassed 7th Day Adventist doctor was in the hallway with him on a table. She had a pair of ominous-looking shears and I rushed to the table and asked her what she was doing.
"He's getting his circumcision," she said.
"No, Hell NO, he's not either," I snapped. I started yelling and 10 or 15 hospital personnel converged on us from several different directions, including a deputy sheriff. I stopped that little bit of GD malpractice. I also sent that quack packing. She had the gall to bill us, and I threw the bill in the waste basket.
Yikes!
Gender affirmation:
You were born male, you are male, and toward that reality, those of us in health care who have not lost our minds will continue to affirm you are male.
Excellent. That is, indeed, "affirming".
Reasons for misaffirming gender:
- Lost your mind
- Lost your spine
- NIMBY
- This is a service business. "Care" is whatever people want.
- The money is too good
- Misery loves company
There is no such thing as a "gender-affirming" procedure. These are *sex change* procedures. Words matter.
Except they don't change anyone's sex. Call it what it is, "Castration"
Well, true your comment is. But its still more accurate than "gender-affirming". Typically medical procedures are named for what's being operated on, how its being altered, or the specific modality of treatment being executed. Say "appendectomy" or "x-ray" and everyone understands.
But "sex change" procedures are now called "gender-affirming" because it suits the political project which necessarily needs to use ambiguity to garner support.
I'm sorry you felt moved to comment on a subject about which you are clearly ignorant. Not that you're alone in that.
They move things along on the euphemism treadmill because the old term, theoretically neutral, like "retarded", has been corrupted to be used against the person.
For example, your post.
Since conservative judges just make it up as they go along, there are no doubt exceptions for elective surgeries for minors like circumcision, breast reduction, cleft palate, etc. As long as the purpose of any given surgery doesn't go against their personal beliefs on gender identity.
ALL of your examples have a long standing medical diagnosis.
Great excuse for allowing elective surgeries for minors that don’t conflict with your personal views on gender. You should be on the supreme court.
Very disappointed that the court used the term cisgender. In my opinion, that term ( which sounds like it is a disease) was invented to denigrate biological, heterosexual males and females.
Cis/Trans are actually terms from Organic Chemistry referring to the "Stereochemistry" of compounds (unfortunately, has nothing to do with Stereos) Too bad most of he idiots using the words think the Periodic Table is something you sit at...
Frank
Frank Drackman: Interesting. So, if you know, what's the basis for using the term "cis" from organic chemistry and applying to describe males and females?
OK, only going back 40+ years (admission, I've never really used any of my Organic Chemistry knowledge in medicine)
but, I think with "Cis" compounds the functional groups (Methyl, Ethyl, Butyl, usw) are on the same side of the compound, while in "Trans" compounds they're on opposite sides.
Of course your mileage may vary,
Frank
Under Judge White's view, could there be any regulation of "transgender" medical procedures?
Just off the top of my head, I'm guessing Judge White would permit a regulation that limits the administration of these drugs to medical doctors.
It's always comforting to hear some good news for a change. Three cheers, huzzah!, and hallelujah!
HT for the "Huzzah", that's the trouble with Amurica (OK, besides Trillions of National Debt, Woke Military, Uncontrolled Illegal Immigration, Crime, Crooked Politicians (Ooooh Clarence Thomas/Sammy Alito got Vacations!!! like 90% of Congress hasn't gotten/getting more???)
Not enough "Huzzahs" (or "Oompah Bands, love the Oompah Bands"
Frank
I think the decision is correct. Preliminary injunctions are for settled law. This isn’t settled law.That alone should be enough to decide it.
For people raising animosity arguments, do you believe laws against “female genital mutilation” are also based on animosity, animosity towards religious minorities?
If not, why should courts accept your view of what constitutes animosity, but not the view of the religious minorities involved?
What a well thought out, reasonable, intelligent, cogent Comment.
You're not from "around here" are ya (boy)???
This site is where reasonable, intelligent, cogent Comments go to get accused of being Gay/Race-ist/a Roosh-un "Bot"(what is a "Bot" anyway?)/Sex-ist/Homo-fobe-ist (even though you're a Homo)
Leave while you still can!!!!!!!!!
Frank, Kind, Gentle, it's whats for dinner