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S. Ct. Holds That Speech Creators (e.g., Web Designers) Can't Be Required to Create Content They Object to,
including when the requirement is imposed by antidiscrimination laws, for instance when such laws require web site designers who create opposite-sex wedding sites create same-sex wedding sites.
The logic of today's 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis should apply, I think, to photographers, videographers, calligraphers, freelance writers, and the like (as well as performers such as wedding singers). It wouldn't apply to businesses that provide nonspeech goods and services, such as wedding venues, limousine drivers, caterers, and the like. It is thus a narrow case, authorizing First Amendment defenses to only a limited set of applications of antidiscrimination law, when speech creators want to choose the particular content of speech that they seek to create.
At the same time, it provides strong protection for speech creators, whether their motivations are religious or not: The decision rests on the Free Speech Clause and not on the Free Exercise Clause. And it provides protection regardless of whether the antidiscrimination law bans discrimination based on sexual orientation, religion, race, political belief, and so on. The Court reasoned that, if the Free Speech Clause here was rejected:
The government could require "an unwilling Muslim movie director to make a film with a Zionist message," or "an atheist muralist to accept a commission celebrating Evangelical zeal," so long as they would make films or murals for other members of the public with different messages. Equally, the government could force a male website designer married to another man to design websites for an organization that advocates against same-sex marriage.
The Court's decision thus entitles these hypothetical freelance movie director, muralist, and website designer to refuse to create such works.
The opinion doesn't resolve what would happen to products or services that aren't traditionally speech but that may be seen as symbolic, such as flower arrangements and wedding cakes. (Dale Carpenter's and my view, which we've expressed in a past amicus brief, is that decisions not to create wedding cakes, at least ones without writing or other visual ideological messages, are not protected by the First Amendment, while decisions to create photographs, web sites, and the like are. We analogize in that brief to speech restrictions, where First Amendment law must decides what's a restriction on speech and what on constitutionally unprotected conduct: A town, for instance, can't ban live performances, newspapers, or photographers, or limit their number; but the First Amendment doesn't stop it from banning or limiting hotels, caterers, limousine drivers, bakers, florists, and the like. Dale and I also filed an amicus brief, together with others, on the web site designer's side in this case.)
Here are excerpts from Justice Gorsuch's majority opinion:
[A.] Like many States, Colorado has a law forbidding businesses from engaging in discrimination when they sell goods and services to the public. Laws along these lines have done much to secure the civil rights of all Americans. But in this particular case Colorado does not just seek to ensure the sale of goods or services on equal terms. It seeks to use its law to compel an individual to create speech she does not believe. The question we face is whether that course violates the Free Speech Clause ….
[B.] The framers designed the Free Speech Clause … to protect the "freedom to think as you will and to speak as you think." They did so because they saw the freedom of speech "both as an end and as a means." An end because the freedom to think and speak is among our inalienable human rights. A means because the freedom of thought and speech is "indispensable to the discovery and spread of political truth." ..
[C.] [T]he wedding websites Ms. Smith [the owner of 303 Creative LLC] seeks to create qualify as "pure speech" under this Court's precedents…. [The parties] have stipulated that Ms. Smith's websites promise to contain "images, words, symbols, and other modes of expression." They have stipulated that every website will be her "original, customized" creation. And they have stipulated that Ms. Smith will create these websites to communicate ideas—namely, to "celebrate and promote the couple's wedding and unique love story" and to "celebrat[e] and promot[e]" what Ms. Smith understands to be a true marriage.
A hundred years ago, Ms. Smith might have furnished her services using pen and paper. Those services are no less protected speech today because they are conveyed with a "voice that resonates farther than it could from any soapbox." All manner of speech—from "pictures, films, paintings, drawings, and engravings," to "oral utterance and the printed word"—qualify for the First Amendment's protections; no less can hold true when it comes to speech like Ms. Smith's conveyed over the Internet….
[T]he wedding websites Ms. Smith seeks to create involve her speech…. Ms. Smith intends to "ve[t]" each prospective project to determine whether it is one she is willing to endorse. She will consult with clients to discuss "their unique stories as source material." And she will produce a final story for each couple using her own words and her own "original artwork."
Of course, Ms. Smith's speech may combine with the couple's in the final product. But for purposes of the First Amendment that changes nothing. An individual "does not forfeit constitutional protection simply by combining multifarious voices" in a single communication….
{[The State argues that t]o comply with Colorado law, … all Ms. Smith must do is repurpose websites she will create to celebrate marriages she does endorse for marriages she does not. She sells a product to some, the State reasons, so she must sell the same product to all…. Colorado says[] this case involves only the sale of an ordinary commercial product and any burden on Ms. Smith's speech is purely "incidental." On the State's telling, then, speech more or less vanishes from the picture—and, with it, any need for First Amendment scrutiny….
[But] the State has stipulated that Ms. Smith does not seek to sell an ordinary commercial good but intends to create "customized and tailored" speech for each couple. The State has stipulated that "[e]ach website 303 Creative designs and creates is an original, customized creation for each client." The State has stipulated, too, that Ms. Smith's wedding websites "will be expressive in nature, using text, graphics, and in some cases videos to celebrate and promote the couple's wedding and unique love story."}
[D.] Colorado seeks to compel speech Ms. Smith does not wish to provide…. [I]f Ms. Smith offers wedding websites celebrating marriages she endorses, the State intends to "forc[e her] to create custom websites" celebrating other marriages she does not. Colorado seeks to compel this speech in order to "excis[e] certain ideas or viewpoints from the public dialogue." Indeed, the [court below] recognized that the coercive "[e]liminati[on]" of dissenting "ideas" about marriage constitutes Colorado's "very purpose" in seeking to apply its law to Ms. Smith….
Colorado [may not] compel speech from Ms. Smith consistent with the Constitution …. In Hurley v. Irish-Am. Gay, Lesbian & Bisexual Group of Boston, Inc. (1995), the Court found that Massachusetts impermissibly compelled speech in violation of the First Amendment when it sought to force parade organizers to accept participants who would "affec[t] the[ir] message." In Boy Scouts of Am. Dale (2000), the Court held that New Jersey intruded on the Boy Scouts' First Amendment rights when it tried to require the group to "propound a point of view contrary to its beliefs" by directing its membership choices. And in W. Va. Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette (1943), this Court found impermissible coercion when West Virginia required schoolchildren to recite a pledge that contravened their convictions on threat of punishment or expulsion.
Here, Colorado seeks to put Ms. Smith to a similar choice: If she wishes to speak, she must either speak as the State demands or face sanctions for expressing her own beliefs, sanctions that may include compulsory participation in "remedial … training," filing periodic compliance reports as officials deem necessary, and paying monetary fines. Under our precedents, that "is enough," more than enough, to represent an impermissible abridgment of the First Amendment's right to speak freely.
Consider what a contrary approach would mean. Under Colorado's logic, the government may compel anyone who speaks for pay on a given topic to accept all commissions on that same topic—no matter the underlying message—if the topic somehow implicates a customer's statutorily protected trait. Taken seriously, that principle would allow the government to force all manner of artists, speechwriters, and others whose services involve speech to speak what they do not believe on pain of penalty. The government could require "an unwilling Muslim movie director to make a film with a Zionist message," or "an atheist muralist to accept a commission celebrating Evangelical zeal," so long as they would make films or murals for other members of the public with different messages. Equally, the government could force a male website designer married to another man to design websites for an organization that advocates against same-sex marriage. {[The dissent] asserts that CADA does not apply to "[m]any filmmakers, visual artists, and writers" because they do not "hold out" their services to the public. But … Colorado's law today applies to "any place of business engaged in any sales to the public." And … many artists and writers accept commissions from the public.}
Countless other creative professionals, too, could be forced to choose between remaining silent, producing speech that violates their beliefs, or speaking their minds and incurring sanctions for doing so. As our precedents recognize, the First Amendment tolerates none of that.
[E.] In saying this much, we do not question the vital role public accommodations laws play in realizing the civil rights of all Americans. This Court has recognized that governments in this country have a "compelling interest" in eliminating discrimination in places of public accommodation. This Court has recognized, too, that public accommodations laws "vindicate the deprivation of personal dignity that surely accompanies denials of equal access to public establishments." … States may "protect gay persons, just as [they] can protect other classes of individuals, in acquiring whatever products and services they choose on the same terms and conditions as are offered to other members of the public. And there are no doubt innumerable goods and services that no one could argue implicate the First Amendment." …
At the same time, this Court has also recognized that no public accommodations law is immune from the demands of the Constitution. In particular, this Court has held, public accommodations statutes can sweep too broadly when deployed to compel speech. [Hurley; Dale.]…
[F.] Nor is it any answer, as the Tenth Circuit seemed to suppose, that Ms. Smith's services are "unique." In some sense, of course, her voice is unique; so is everyone's. But that hardly means a State may coopt an individual's voice for its own purposes. In Hurley, the veterans had an "enviable" outlet for speech; after all, their parade was a notable and singular event. In Dale, the Boy Scouts offered what some might consider a unique experience. But in both cases this Court held that the State could not use its public accommodations statute to deny speakers the right "to choose the content of [their] own message[s]." Were the rule otherwise, the better the artist, the finer the writer, the more unique his talent, the more easily his voice could be conscripted to disseminate the government's preferred messages….
[G.] Of course, as the State emphasizes, Ms. Smith offers her speech for pay and does so through 303 Creative LLC, a company in which she is "the sole member-owner." But none of that makes a difference. Does anyone think a speechwriter loses his First Amendment right to choose for whom he works if he accepts money in return? Or that a visual artist who accepts commissions from the public does the same? Many of the world's great works of literature and art were created with an expectation of compensation. Nor, this Court has held, do speakers shed their First Amendment protections by employing the corporate form to disseminate their speech. This fact underlies our cases involving everything from movie producers to book publishers to newspapers.
[H.] Colorado next urges us to focus on the reason Ms. Smith refuses to offer the speech it seeks to compel. She refuses, the State insists, because she objects to the "protected characteristics" of certain customers. But … [the parties have stipulated] that Ms. Smith "will gladly create custom graphics and websites for gay, lesbian, or bisexual clients or for organizations run by gay, lesbian, or bisexual persons so long as the custom graphics and websites" do not violate her beliefs. That is a condition, the parties acknowledge, Ms. Smith applies to "all customers." Ms. Smith stresses, too, that she has not and will not create expressions that defy any of her beliefs for any customer, whether that involves encouraging violence, demeaning another person, or promoting views inconsistent with her religious commitments. Nor, in any event, do the First Amendment's protections belong only to speakers whose motives the government finds worthy; its protections belong to all, including to speakers whose motives others may find misinformed or offensive. {While [the Free Speech Clause] does not protect status-based discrimination unrelated to expression, generally it does protect a speaker's right to control her own message—even when we may disapprove of the speaker's motive or the message itself.}…
[I.] Colorado suggests that this Court's decision in Rumsfeld v. FAIR (2006) supports affirmance. In FAIR, a group of schools challenged a law requiring them, as a condition of accepting federal funds, to permit military recruiters space on campus on equal terms with other potential employers. The only expressive activity required of the law schools, the Court found, involved the posting of logistical notices along these lines: "'The U. S. Army recruiter will meet interested students in Room 123 at 11 a.m.'" And, the Court reasoned, compelled speech of this sort was "incidental" and a "far cry" from the speech at issue in our "leading First Amendment precedents [that] have established the principle that freedom of speech prohibits the government from telling people what they must say."
It is a far cry from this case too. To be sure, our cases have held that the government may sometimes "requir[e] the dissemination of purely factual and uncontroversial information," particularly in the context of "commercial advertising." But this case involves nothing like that. Here, Colorado does not seek to impose an incidental burden on speech. It seeks to force an individual to "utter what is not in [her] mind" about a question of political and religious significance. And that, FAIR reaffirmed, is something the First Amendment does not tolerate. No government, FAIR recognized, may affect a "speaker's message" by "forc[ing]" her to "accommodate" other views; no government may "'alter'" the "'expressive content'" of her message; and no government may "interfer[e] with" her "desired message." …
[J.] Doubtless, determining what qualifies as expressive activity protected by the First Amendment can sometimes raise difficult questions. But this case presents no complication of that kind. The parties have stipulated that Ms. Smith seeks to engage in expressive activity. And the Tenth Circuit has recognized her services involve "pure speech." {The dissent observes that public accommodations laws may sometimes touch on speech incidentally as they work to ensure ordinary, nonexpressive goods and services are sold on equal terms. But as Hurley observed, there is nothing "incidental" about an infringement on speech when a public accommodations law is applied "peculiar[ly]" to compel expressive activity…. [O]ur case law has not sustained every First Amendment objection to an antidiscrimination rule, as with a law firm that sought to exclude women from partnership. But … very different considerations come into play when a law is used to force individuals to toe the government's preferred line when speaking (or associating to express themselves) on matters of significance. Dale.} …
And from Justice Sotomayor's dissent, joined by Justices Kagan and Jackson:
[A.] A business open to the public seeks to deny gay and lesbian customers the full and equal enjoyment of its services based on the owner's religious belief that same-sex marriages are "false." The business argues, and a majority of the Court agrees, that because the business offers services that are customized and expressive, the Free Speech Clause … shields the business from a generally applicable law that prohibits discrimination in the sale of publicly available goods and services. That is wrong. Profoundly wrong…. [T]he law in question targets conduct, not speech, for regulation, and the act of discrimination has never constituted protected expression under the First Amendment. Our Constitution contains no right to refuse service to a disfavored group….
The First Amendment does not entitle petitioners to a special exemption from a state law that simply requires them to serve all members of the public on equal terms. Such a law does not directly regulate petitioners' speech at all, and petitioners may not escape the law by claiming an expressive interest in discrimination….
This Court has long held that "the First Amendment does not prevent restrictions directed at commerce or conduct from imposing incidental burdens on speech." "Congress, for example, can prohibit employers from discriminating in hiring on the basis of race. The fact that this will require an employer to take down a sign reading 'White Applicants Only' hardly means that the law should be analyzed as one regulating the employer's speech rather than conduct." FAIR. This principle explains "why an ordinance against outdoor fires might forbid burning a flag and why antitrust laws can prohibit agreements in restraint of trade."
Consider United States v. O'Brien (1968). In that case, the Court upheld the application of a law against the destruction of draft cards to a defendant who had burned his draft card to protest the Vietnam War. The protester's conduct was indisputably expressive. Indeed, it was political expression, which lies at the heart of the First Amendment. Yet the O'Brien Court focused on whether the Government's interest in regulating the conduct was to burden expression. Because it was not, the regulation was subject to lesser constitutional scrutiny. The O'Brien standard is satisfied if a regulation is unrelated to the suppression of expression and "'promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation.'" …
[Likewise, t]he law schools in FAIR claimed that the Solomon Amendment infringed the schools' First Amendment freedom of speech. The schools provided recruiting assistance in the form of emails, notices on bulletin boards, and flyers. As the Court acknowledged, those services "clearly involve speech." And the Solomon Amendment required "schools offering such services to other recruiters" to provide them equally "on behalf of the military," even if the school deeply objected to creating such speech. But that did not transform the equal provision of services into "compelled speech" of the kind barred by the First Amendment, because the school's speech was "only 'compelled' if, and to the extent, the school provides such speech for other recruiters." Thus, any speech compulsion was "plainly incidental to the Solomon Amendment's regulation of conduct." …
The same principle resolves this case…. [A] public accommodations law like the [Colorado law] does not "target speech or discriminate on the basis of its content." Rather, "the focal point of its prohibition" is "on the act of discriminating against individuals in the provision of publicly available goods, privileges, and services." …
Crucially, the law "does not dictate the content of speech at all, which is only 'compelled' if, and to the extent," the company offers "such speech" to other customers. Colorado does not require the company to "speak [the State's] preferred message." Nor does it prohibit the company from speaking the company's preferred message. The company could, for example, offer only wedding websites with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman. (Just as it could offer only t-shirts with such quotations.) The company could also refuse to include the words "Love is Love" if it would not provide those words to any customer. All the company has to do is offer its services without regard to customers' protected characteristics. Any effect on the company's speech is therefore "incidental" to the State's content-neutral regulation of conduct.
Once these features of the law are understood, it becomes clear that petitioners' freedom of speech is not abridged in any meaningful sense, factual or legal. Petitioners remain free to advocate the idea that same-sex marriage betrays God's laws. Even if Smith believes God is calling her to do so through her for-profit company, the company need not hold out its goods or services to the public at large. Many filmmakers, visual artists, and writers never do. (That is why the law does not require Steven Spielberg or Banksy to make films or art for anyone who asks.)
Finally, and most importantly, even if the company offers its goods or services to the public, it remains free under state law to decide what messages to include or not to include…. All the company may not do is offer wedding websites to the public yet refuse those same websites to gay and lesbian couples. See Runyon v. McCrary (1976) (distinguishing between schools' ability to express their bigoted view "that racial segregation is desirable" and the schools' proscribable "practice of excluding racial minorities").
Another example might help to illustrate the point. A professional photographer is generally free to choose her subjects. She can make a living taking photos of flowers or celebrities. The State does not regulate that choice.
If the photographer opens a portrait photography business to the public, however, the business may not deny to any person, because of race, sex, national origin, or other protected characteristic, the full and equal enjoyment of whatever services the business chooses to offer. That is so even though portrait photography services are customized and expressive.
If the business offers school photos, it may not deny those services to multiracial children because the owner does not want to create any speech indicating that interracial couples are acceptable. If the business offers corporate headshots, it may not deny those services to women because the owner believes a woman's place is in the home. And if the business offers passport photos, it may not deny those services to Mexican Americans because the owner opposes immigration from Mexico.
The same is true for sexual-orientation discrimination. If a photographer opens a photo booth outside of city hall and offers to sell newlywed photos captioned with the words "Just Married," she may not refuse to sell that service to a newlywed gay or lesbian couple, even if she believes the couple is not, in fact, just married because in her view their marriage is "false." …
[B.] Because any burden on petitioners' speech is incidental to CADA's neutral regulation of commercial conduct, the regulation is subject to the standard set forth in O'Brien. That standard is easily satisfied here because the law's application "promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation." … [B]y prohibiting only "acts of invidious discrimination in the distribution of publicly available goods, services, and other advantages," the law "responds precisely to the substantive problem which legitimately concerns the State and abridges no more speech … than is necessary to accomplish that purpose." …
[C.] The majority attempts to distinguish this clear holding of FAIR by suggesting that the compelled speech in FAIR was "incidental" because it was "logistical" (e.g., "The U. S. Army recruiter will meet interested students in Room 123 at 11 a.m."). This attempt fails twice over. First, the law schools in FAIR alleged that the Solomon Amendment required them to create and disseminate speech propagating the military's message, which they deeply objected to, and to include military speakers in onand off-campus forums (if the schools provided equally favorable services to other recruiters). The majority simply skips over the Court's key reasoning for why any speech compulsion was nevertheless "incidental" to the Amendment's regulation of conduct: It would occur only "if, and to the extent," the regulated entity provided "such speech" to others….
Second, the majority completely ignores the categorical nature of the exemption claimed by petitioners. Petitioners maintain, as they have throughout this litigation, that they will refuse to create any wedding website for a same-sex couple. Even an announcement of the time and place of a wedding (similar to the majority's example from FAIR) abridges petitioners' freedom of speech, they claim, because "the announcement of the wedding itself is a concept that [Smith] believes to be false." Indeed, petitioners here concede that if a same-sex couple came across an opposite-sex wedding website created by the company and requested an identical website, with only the names and date of the wedding changed, petitioners would refuse. That is status-based discrimination, plain and simple….
[D.] The majority, however, analogizes this case to Hurley and Dale. The law schools in FAIR likewise relied on Hurley and Dale to argue that the Solomon Amendment violated their free-speech rights. FAIR confirmed, however, that a neutral regulation of conduct imposes an incidental burden on speech when the regulation grants a right of equal access that requires the regulated party to provide speech only if, and to the extent, it provides such speech for others.
Hurley and Dale, by contrast, involved "peculiar" applications of public accommodations laws, not to "the act of discriminating … in the provision of publicly available goods" by "clearly commercial entities," but rather to private, nonprofit expressive associations in ways that directly burdened speech. The Court in Hurley and Dale stressed that the speech burdens in those cases were not incidental to prohibitions on status-based discrimination because the associations did not assert that "mere acceptance of a member from a particular group would impair [the association's] message."
Here, the opposite is true. 303 Creative LLC is a "clearly commercial entit[y]." The company comes under the regulation of CADA only if it sells services to the public, and only if it denies the equal enjoyment of such services because of sexual orientation. The State confirms that the company is free to include or not to include any message in whatever services it chooses to offer. And the company confirms that it plans to engage in status-based discrimination. Therefore, any burden on the company's expression is incidental to the State's content-neutral regulation of commercial conduct….
A content-neutral equal-access policy is "a far cry" from a mandate to "endorse" a pledge chosen by the Government. FAIR. This Court has said "it trivializes the freedom protected in Barnette" to equate the two. Requiring Smith's company to abide by a law against invidious discrimination in commercial sales to the public does not conscript her into espousing the government's message. It does not "invad[e]" her "sphere of intellect" or violate her constitutional "right to differ." All it does is require her to stick to her bargain: "The owner who hangs a shingle and offers her services to the public cannot retreat from the promise of open service; to do so is to offer the public marked money. It is to convey the promise of a free and open society and then take the prize away from the despised few." …
[E.] Although the consequences of today's decision might be most pressing for the LGBT community, the decision's logic cannot be limited to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. The decision threatens to balkanize the market and to allow the exclusion of other groups from many services. A website designer could equally refuse to create a wedding website for an interracial couple, for example…. A stationer could refuse to sell a birth announcement for a disabled couple because she opposes their having a child. A large retail store could reserve its family portrait services for "traditional" families. And so on.
{The potential implications of the Court's logic are deeply troubling. Would Runyon v. McCrary have come out differently if the schools had argued that accepting Black children would have required them to create original speech, like lessons, report cards, or diplomas, that they deeply objected to? What if the law firm in Hishon v. King & Spalding had argued that promoting a woman to the partnership would have required it to alter its speech, like letterhead or court filings, in ways that it would rather not? Once you look closely, "compelled speech" (in the majority's facile understanding of that concept) is everywhere.}
Wedding websites, birth announcements, family portraits, epitaphs. These are not just words and images. They are the most profound moments in a human's life. They are the moments that give that life personal and cultural meaning…. [H]ear the story of Cynthia and Sherry, a lesbian couple of 13 years until Cynthia died from cancer at age 35. When Cynthia was diagnosed, she drew up a will, which authorized Sherry to make burial arrangements. Cynthia had asked Sherry to include an inscription on her headstone, listing the relationships that were important to her, for example, "daughter, granddaughter, sister, and aunt." After Cynthia died, the cemetery was willing to include those words, but not the words that described Cynthia's relationship to Sherry: "'beloved life partner.'" N. Knauer, Gay and Lesbian Elders 102 (2011)….
[F.] The unattractive lesson of the majority opinion is this: What's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours. The lesson of the history of public accommodations laws is altogether different. It is that in a free and democratic society, there can be no social castes. And for that to be true, it must be true in the public market. For the "promise of freedom" is an empty one if the Government is "powerless to assure that a dollar in the hands of [one person] will purchase the same thing as a dollar in the hands of a[nother]." …
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I continue to think that, if it were being taken seriously, the 13th amendment would be enough to protect people from such involuntary labor. Too Lochnerian, I suppose, it verges on giving people their economic liberties back.
You're welcome to hire someone else to serve black or gay customers if you don't want to serve them yourself. Just like this web designer could have done, I suppose. But then what do I know?
One hopes they will at least put up signs – ‘No blacks, no gays, no Irish.’
Nige 29 mins ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
"One hopes they will at least put up signs – ‘No blacks, no gays, no Irish.’"
try to read the opinion - neither you , sotomayor,kagan or jackson have any concept about the actual issue in the case.
The actual issue is that PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FREED FROM SLAVERY ACTUAL REAL SLAVERY apparently.
With Nige, you could have stopped after the word “concept”
Look I think we can all agree this is a great victory for homophobes.
Nige - continues to not understand the facts in the case. Same with Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson mispresenting the facts to reach erroneous application of the law.
It ended slavery. That's all we need to know.
Read the case - Its the 303 case - nothing to do with slavery
Try in the future to avoid demonstrating your ignorance, though it typical smears for people that are not as bigoted as nige
Oh no, I am being assured that being forced to make things for gay people you hate is slavery.
You can always tell by their remarks who actually has not read the article. Martin has completely missed the part where the web designer was more than willing to "serve black or gay customers."
I'll even quote it for him...
But … [the parties have stipulated] that Ms. Smith "will gladly create custom graphics and websites for gay, lesbian, or bisexual clients or for organizations run by gay, lesbian, or bisexual persons so long as the custom graphics and websites" do not violate her beliefs.
How is that different? She's happy to make them a website as long as it's for a straight wedding?
Yes. She's willing to serve them, just not provide them with the service they desire.
Wedding websites are not the only service she offers. It's a general graphic design business. Presumably gay customers do sometimes need other things than wedding websites.
Sadly, her website (as of today anyway) does not make any mention of her anti-gay beliefs. There may have been gay customers who sought her out not knowing that she's a bigot.
I hope that after this case, she proudly puts her intention to discriminate against gay clients in her wedding services right on the front page, so that every customer --gay or straight-- can be informed about her homophobic stance and act accordingly.
Why should it be mentioned?
She has no obligation to do more than simply say "no".
Obligation? No.
Should she? Yes.
That's literally what she wanted to do, and Colorado said that she couldn't.
And I am literally doubting her sincerity, based on past performance of both herself and her fellow travelers. This isn't complicated.
Especially since it turns out that there were no actual gay customers that actually asked for a website that she actually declined to produce. Colorado had nothing to say about it because literally nothing had happened except inside this lady's head. The whole thing was concocted and advisory.
So yeah, it's pretty fucking hard to trust any of these people.
If you can have the same content, and the only difference between whether it's acceptable or not is if the customer is Adam and Steve or Adam and Eve, it's not the content you're refusing.
Sophistry. If I want to create a tv ad and I hire an actor to say, "We need to kill the vermin," and the actor agrees if the surrounding context shows that this is a commercial for Raid bug spray, but refuses if the surrounding context shows that this is a commercial for Nazis, would you say, "It's the exact same words he's saying, so there's no reason he should treat those differently"?
Sophistry.
Yes, “I’m not refusing the customer, I’m refusing the message”, when the objectionable part of the message is 100% based on the customer, is sophistry.
It was sophistry when the case was Elane Photography, it’s sophistry now.
Own your bigotry. Be honest. You're not fooling anyone anyway.
It is not. She would turn down business from Adam and Steve's straight parents for the same objectional (in her view) website.
This is really no different than YouTube and Facebook turning down any content they don't like for any reason they want.
"I won the 2020 presidential election." - Joe Biden.
"I won the 2020 presidential election." - Donald Trump.
The words are identical. The message is not, based on the identity of the speaker.
The problem with your argument is it's wrong. People generating creative content for hire generally don't get to control the context, so it's hard to see why they should get to object to it.
For example, imagine Adam purchased a website for a straight wedding to "Eve," then search-and-replaced Eve to Steve. Were the website designer's First Amendment rights violated in that case?
The answer can't be yes. But if the answer is no, then it's hard to imagine that she has a First Amendment right to object not to the message itself but to the context, since there's no real difference between the two cases.
Let's imagine that kept happening and she got pissed off enough about it that she started to decline making straight wedding websites for gay customers. Does she have a First Amendment right to do that?
Clearly you know nothing.
Forcing someone to hire someone else to produce speech she disagrees with is in no sense different from forcing her to say it herself
Involuntary labour providing services you've never provided to imaginary customers - right-wing victimisation at its height.
Brett, you are creating your own opponent there and it is failing. Am I supposed to be against a living wage just because I don't want a fool like Biden saying what that is??
I followed the tuition thing for years and it turns out that I am right just on all my years of being at school
the Federal Reserve Bank of New York found that the average tuition increase associated with expansion of student loans is as much as 60 cents per dollar.
In 1980, the price to attend a four-year college full-time was $10,231 annually—including tuition, fees, room and board, and adjusted for inflation—according to the National Center for Education Statistics. By 2019-20, the total price increased to $28,775. That’s a 180% increase.
Biden's help to students is KILLLING their ability to go to school at all. What a fool is the President...and 2026 is coming
"The "enrollment cliff" refers to the dramatic drop in the college-age population beginning in 2025.
The number of kids born between 2008 and 2011 plummeted dramatically.
So if you graph demographic projections, the precipitous descent resembles a cliff beginning in 2025. Over the succeeding four years, the number of 18-year-olds will decrease by 15%.
STUPID STUPID BIDEN, doing all he can to take education away from those least able to get by.
Nobody wants to pay $2000 for a fancy car radio. But an extra $30 a month on a car loan? Sign me up!
Thus does the chronic increase in college prices, two or three or more times inflation, proceed year after year. Just a few more dollars a month on your loan.
And many more positions are filled. And the whole thing will collapse someday, and government will pick up the pieces.
As designed.
Congress could fix this overnight by refusing to guarantee loans at any U that increases tuition more than the lesser of 2% or inflation. Then hold for 20 years
But they won't. Financial risk and collapse and government takeover are the goal. Professors, sinecure positions, students, loan corporations, politicians.
Win win win win win! Now that's impressive!
I would think false advertising laws should be at play here…so make people spell out what weddings they will serve in their advertisements.
This is precisely what the web designer wanted to do. Colorado said no.
My big issue is with destination weddings and couples having to call every proprietor to make sure they cater to gays or pagans or whatever…that seems to harken back to the days of Jim Crow and the Green Book. Obviously for Gen X we grew up with proprietors that flew pride flags to express they were LGBTQ allies but I guess if two gay dudes want to have a destination wedding in rural North Dakota and not in Cape Cod then whatever??
If you want a pagan wedding, don't you already call places that offer pagan weddings?
You don't go to the Chevy dealer when you're shopping for grapes, right?
You're absolutely right. Is the person providing a service? Yes. Are they being made to do so involuntarily? Yes. Then it's involuntary servitude. It should be that simple. Unfortunately the courts haven't taken the 13th seriously in long, long time. Their ruling that the draft isn't involuntary servitude is a case in point.
So having to do a job for people you don't like is involuntary servitude? 'I hate having to do this but I need the money' puts you in involuntary servitude? I think you're proving too much in an effort to make this some sort of victory for liberty.
"So having to do a job for people you don’t like is involuntary servitude?"
If you're doing so at gunpoint (which a law is stand-in for), then yes.
See the answer I gave Jason Cavanaugh. Suppose Lorie Smith was looking to get hired for a job, rather than running her own business. If the only company willing to hire her was one that does websites for same-sex weddings, she has to choose between her dislike of that and paying her bills, but that's not involuntary. If the government tells her she has to take the job or else she has to change her vocation and not work for anyone as a web designer, then that *is* involuntary.
gunpoint (which a law is stand-in for)
Rare to see this pure a level of childlike libertarianism in the wild these days.
The taxation is robbery crowd is a small, generally comfortable bunch, who have some trouble with perspective.
I thought most of them had gone MAGA out of boredom and frustration.
Basically everything government is at the point of a gun, Sarcastr0: Being able to threaten people with violence and get away with it is the only thing government brings to the table, that you can't get in the private sector. If you don't need to threaten people with violence, you don't normally even bother going to the government to get something done!
Now, obviously there are circumstances where threatening people with violence is justified. Stopping murder, rape, other forms of assault, theft, anything where somebody is genuinely harmed in a way they have a right not to be, can justify deploying some level of force.
But if you refuse to recognize that violence and threats of violence are central to everything government does, you'll resort to government, and thus violence, where it isn't justifiable!
No actually – it’s a crazy lack of perspective to compare being a fucking slave with having to serve a customer you don’t wanna.
Similarly, being mugged is not the same experience as paying your taxes.
You can intellectualize as much as you want about who has a monopoly on violence, but look at how much work you had to do to pretend these things were equal.
In reality, no one thinks these are the same thing, except for people so utterly lacking in imagination they can’t think of anyone worse off than they are.
Heck, as Nige pointed out, the same level of abstraction in a slightly different direction and presto, capitalism is robbery.
"being mugged is not the same experience as paying your taxes"
Right. Most people might get mugged once in their life, they pay taxes everyday.
And, unlike politicians, muggers do not expect you to thank them for stealing your money.
Government does.
Ya know, what happens if someone declines to obey a law, or a supreme court decision, or the like?
What? Guns come out.
Well, shit. Your thesis needs work.
Nah, actually. Someone doesn't pay their taxes, or refuses to abide by public accommodation laws, guns don't come out.
That's just in the smooth frictionless reality of libertarians that happens.
Where did I mention taxation? I said law, of which taxation is just a subset. If someone were beating up a gay person, anyone -- myself or the government -- would be morally justified in threatening lethal force against the beater, and using it if the threat doesn't work. Doing so is *not* justified against someone who is refusing to buy or sell. Think otherwise? Then you are to the marketplace as an incel is to sex.
Where did I mention taxation? Where indeed!
I said law, of which taxation is just a subset.. Seems you answered the question already.
If someone were beating up a gay person, anyone — myself or the government — would be morally justified in threatening lethal force against the beater, and using it if the threat doesn’t work.
No, actually - escalating to lethal force is not justified legally or morally.
[using lethal force] is *not* justified against someone who is refusing to buy or sell.
It takes the special softbrain of the libertarian to think lethal force is on the board here.
An economic gun (work or starve) doesn't count? 'Work or starve' is why a lot of people sold themselves into actual indentured servitude, after all.
'If the government tells her she has to take the job'
That's certainly an argument for a stronger social safety net and less stringency in penalising job-hunters who refuse jobs because they don't suit them.
"Work or starve" is a dilemma pretty much everyone faces, dude. The problem with indentured servitude is not the servitude, it's the indentured. A requirement to serve all comers or quit is not indenturement, nor is it slavery, nor is it involuntarily.
"So having to do a job for people you don’t like is involuntary servitude?"
If you are forbidden from saying no...then yes, that is precisely what it is.
She’s never even been asked to create a gay wedding website, let alone forced!
You guys sure are melodramatic about this for some reason! Well, bigotry being the obvious one I guess.
"You’re absolutely right. Is the person providing a service? Yes. Are they being made to do so involuntarily? Yes. Then it’s involuntary servitude."
You had all the time in the world to formulate your argument before hitting Submit, and this was the best you could offer?
Wow.
Can the person providing the service quit doing so? Yes. Then it isn't involuntary servitude.
No, he can't. He can only quit doing it entirely. He can't quit for that one person. You're a fucking idiot.
I considered your line of argument, actually, but thought it too silly to bother with. Apparently I was wrong.
The providing of service is voluntary or involuntary for any given transaction. This is merely applying the same standard to a self-employed person that applies to someone who works for a salary. If a web designer gets a job offer from a company they don't want to work for, for whatever reason, they can still turn it down without having to change careers. At least, for now. If your logic applied, the government could force them to do accept the job.
They can turn it down, they don't have to give a reason, but if they want to say 'because we're ridiculously posturing homophobes and we're hoping to monetise a contrived culture war controversy' they might get some blowback.
Blowback is fine. If people want to boycott Lorie Smith's business now, they're perfectly free to do so. When government force enters the picture, a line has been crossesd.
'Blowback is fine'
I think you'll find organising a boycott against a homophobic business will be bullying and fascism. You just can't win with some people.
The government had to intervene to protect lgtbq people from persecution and discrimination. I blame the homophobes for the entire situation.
No, only you people claim organizing boycotts against tranny supporting Bud Light if fascist.
And not baking a cake for someone like you who likes to shoot off in other men's tushes is not "persecution."
No, the people organising those boycotts ARE fascists. Boycotts themselves are value neutral.
People might call such a boycott bullying/fascism, but they would be wrong.
See: Sweetcakes by Melissa.
While in litigation, local boycotts over the owner's anti-gay views lead to such a large drop in foot-traffic at the store that they ended up closing the physical store and going to an online-only buisness.
They immediately went online and whined that the government (which had not fined them yet) had fined them into oblivion.
Did you bother to inform yourself as to the definitions of the words you're arguing about?
Clearly not.
Here I thought we all knew what "servitude" was from grade school education. It would seem that I've given you far too much credit.
From Oxford Learner's Dictionary (Oxford itself is behind a paywall): "the condition of being a slave or being forced to obey another person"
From Wiktionary: "The state of being a slave; slavery; being forced to work for others or do their bidding without one's consent or against one's will"
Both of those fit what you're seeking to impose on Lorie Smith.
Government regulations do not make someone a 'slave.' One can always choose a different job.
The fact that you're legitimately trying to equate slavery with serving customers who wish to avail themselves of the business someone voluntarily operates is astonishingly stupid.
Perhaps you should start with remedial English and a course of US History.
Then again, perhaps you should wait until you're out of diapers.
You really don't understand public accomodations laws. They only apply to people who purport to serve the public. It's in the name!
Just to be clear, you think all public accomodations law is slavery, right? I mean the same argument applies to "I was forced to make a sandwich for this Black guy!"
Yeah, that melodrama only plays in the rarified air up here; no one else is buying this is slavery.
It may violate expressive association, but putting on the shackles and chains of enslaved people is an awful fit to everyone who isn't so comfortable they lose all sense of perspective.
from the dissenting opinion in a 1959 Washington Supreme Court case:
Through what an arc the pendulum of Negro rights has swung since the extreme position of the Dred Scott decision! Those rights reached dead center when the thirteenth amendment to the United States constitution abolished the ancient wrong of Negro slavery. This court has now swung to the opposite extreme in its opinion subjecting white people to "involuntary servitude" to Negroes.
So involuntary servitude is black people acting like they think they're white and gay people acting like they think they're straight - or, from the point of view of the black and gay people, acting like they think they're people.
As the ACLU understood at Skokie, if you mean to defend the rights of nice people, you must be willing to defend the rights of not so nice people. That includes business people who don't want to serve folks you approve of.
One understands the motives behind public accommodation laws, at least in the beginning. It really tugs at the heart to imagine a family, traveling across country, their car breaks down in some small community with only one hotel, one garage, and they're stranded, forced to sleep under a bridge and walk out on foot, because the only hotel will not accommodate them, the only garage will not get their car running.
Why, this might even be the prototypical "hard case", and, yes, it has made for bad law, because "public accommodations" are no longer restricted to local monopolies over vital services, but now extend to even the most frivolous of services, and even where the complainant could just as easily walk next door and be served.
Placing the imposition on the person providing the service entirely out of mind, it just seems sensible to force them to provide the service no matter the circumstances.
But I think all people should be free, not just those who buy, but also those who sell...
This is more like a prototypical dumb case, since nobody was asking her to do anything.
I think you are trying to prove too much. It is much simpler, and better supported, to rest it on property rights. Association rights as well. These have been given short shrift and would amply protect businesses.
Well yes, this is clearly an unconstitutional taking.
who said anything about a taking
Sotomayor again fails to grasp the important legal distinction in the accomodation law - the ban on discrimination based on race/sex/creed and the non ban on discrimination based on acts.
"Sotomayor again fails ..."
Could have stopped right there.
Even though there is a bit of back and forth between Gorsuch and Sotomayor on this issue, the rejection of that distinction is a statutory interpretation of Colorado law and in the end played no role in the constitutional issues before the Court.
No, the law involved does not in fact make this distinction, whether or not you think it should. A defendant who claimed that he fired somebody for engaging in acts of same-sex sodomy, not for having homosexual status, would certainly lose in court.
The law very clearly bans discrimination based on race, sex, creed, similar to the language in 14A.
No where in the law is a ban on providing services for an act.
The act is distinctly different from race or sex or creed.
Anyone conflating the two as if they are they same are being dishonest.
What is the act in this case?
the act of the marriage
As noted in the opinion, and as stipulated, but the plaintiff and the state of colorado noted that the plaintiff regularly provided services (creative services) to gay individuals and gay couples. her objection was to providing one specific type of services. If the services were being provided for the straight parents (or on behalf) of the gay couple, she would still have refused to provide that specific service.
All other services would be provided.
Is it discrimination to refuse to serve a Jewish wedding if you otherwise serve Jews? How about an interracial wedding if you otherwise serve blacks?
Two days ago, it was. Now? Who knows.
Oh, I don't see how they could possibly cabin this to just "it's fine not to serve gay people." This ended up as a free-speech decision, not a free-exercise one, so you don't even need a religious objection! Any objection will do. "I'll serve Black customers as long as they're paying me to take photos of white people" is certainly next.
I don't thinks he grasps much of anything other than how to stuff her face with rice, beans and queso.
So you can be pressed into involuntary servitude by government, despite clear Constitutional language forbidding that, but not if the involuntary labor is expressive.
If it’s just ordinary labor like building someone's home or picking someone's cotton, you can’t decline a job for special people because they have a special right to take advantage of your personal services, above and beyond your own rights to decline servitude.
Right. It's a product of the Court's repudiation of economic rights: As soon as money changes hands, you lose most of your freedom.
Which is logical and probably necessary. Whenever any action by the individual directly impacts or has the potential of impacting others, some loss of individual liberty may be necessary.
"Whenever any action by the individual directly impacts or has the potential of impacting others, some loss of individual liberty may be necessary."
Boy are the incels going to be happy to hear that.
Not to mention female athletes.
"Whenever any action by the individuaL…"
Declining work isn’t an action.
In these cases it's before money ever changes hands. The special classes are due your labor just by being.
NO, you committed a fallacy there.
Do YOU get to define what is special. Hey, I am a gay perv and I must have a cake that says 'Do it like Elton"
'pressed into involuntary servitude'
The English language just rolled over and died.
Heck, you can be forced to build roads for the government, despite clear Constitutional language forbidding that.
Butler v. Perry , 240 U.S. 328 (1916)
My, oh, my. Yeah, "work six 10-hour days at hard labor or pay $3 (somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 days wage) to the government" certainly seems to qualify.
I wonder if that would hold up these days.
This is about private individuals using government coercion to press others into involuntary servitude for private aims, not about government conscripting people itself.
Well, no *actual* individuals were involved.
"Blessed be the fruit."
"May the Lord open."
What a rebuke to REASON libertarians...
Notice, Free Speech not Free Exercise....there goes all that stupid sht about 'your religious views"
It doesn't seem to have registered on here but people of all stripes are getting sick of the hypocrisy of callling your position 'moral' but the opposite 'Religious"
I watch the formation of anti-abortion groups on this very principle
SECULAR PRO-lIFE
PRO-LIFE ALLIANCE OF GAYS AND LESBIANS +
HUMAN RIGHTS START WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS
THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF
PRO-LIFE OBSTETRICIANS AND GYNECOLOGISTS
BOARD CERTIFIED. PROFESSIONAL.
MEDICAL EXPERTS IN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT SINCE 1973
Democrats for Life
PRogressive Anti-abortion Uprising
Feminsts for Life
Did this lady’s attorneys file a fake affidavit?
https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-gay-marriage-website-real-straight-man-supreme-court
Wow. That’s strange. I hope the facts are conclusively established here. It would be the height of irony if the Right’s latest victimhood dance before the Supreme Court was based on a lie.
...and no one was aware of it until now? Ironic indeed.
I mean, it's not like the she was the one being sued. The only purpose of the affidavit was to make it seem like her concern was reasonable.
So while it's really fucking weird that the lawyer lied about this, it doesn't actually matter (which is why no one really looked into it).
Besides, this court is 100% A-OK with accepting "alternative facts" to justify siding with "religious rights" cases, so it's not like they'd have cared anyway.
Disciplinary authorities should investigate. If the lawyers acted properly their reputations should be cleared. If they lied they should be disbarred and compellled to pay the other side’s legal fees.
Smith and ADF filed the case on September 20 of that year, asking the court to enjoin the state anti-discrimination law so that Smith could begin offering her wedding website design services to straight couples only. Up to this point, Smith had never designed any wedding website. (In fact, her website six months prior to the lawsuit being filed in 2016 does not include any of the Christian messaging that it did shortly afterward and today, archived versions of the site show.) The initial lawsuit did not mention the “Stewart” inquiry, which was submitted to Smith’s website on September 21, according to the date-stamp shown in later court filings, indicating that she received it the day after the suit was originally filed.
I doubt the lawyers did it, way too much risk for too little reward.
It seems more likely that the lawyers had been explaining to her that her case would be a lot stronger if it wasn't purely hypothetical... so after the initial filing she created a client.
Alternately, some member of the public saw the filing and decided to file the fake request for their own reasons.
Still very odd that it was never picked up on.
It’s worth noticing how narrow this case is and how little is actually at stake.
1. There is general agreement, at least since Hurley, that the Freesom of Speech clause of the First Amendment protects people who create speech from public accommodation laws that force them to create unwanted speech.
2. There is general agreement that it doesn’t protect people who don’t create speech.
There a few borderline situations where it’s unclear whether what folks are doing is speech are not. Is cake decorating speech? Web site design?
Deciding whether each of these borderline cases is or isn’t speech doesn’t really change very much. It doesn’t make much of a difference outside that one particular activity.
For this reason, I feel a bit like a Martian looking at the intense rhetoric and that came out in the opinions, not to mention the comments on posts about this case when it got taken up and went through argument. Why are people in such emotional frenzies about this? Why are they acting like it’s the end of the world?
Whether web site design is speech or isn’t speech, the world isn’t going to end.
There a few borderline situations where it’s unclear whether what folks are doing is speech are not. Is cake decorating speech? Web site design?
Is serving someone coffee or dinner at a Starbuck's or a restaurant speech? It sure involves talking. How can the government force me to talk to a gay person if I think they are icky, given the First Amendment?
Why do you liken wedding cake bakers with Walmart cake bakers?
One, you don't have to speak to someone to serve them coffee. Even grossly overpriced barista coffee. Two, in that case the content is the same for everyone.
Now you're just inventing rules that aren't in the First Amendment. The barista has to communicate with the customer somehow, and the government is forcing them to communicate - i.e. speak - to a customer whether they want to or not. Forced speech! Outrage!
What service they provide isn't the point. The First Amendment says nothing about coffee. But it sure talks about speaking and about religion.
I would not characterize the speech necessary to take an order as expressive beyond trying to find out what coffee you want. In contrast, custom designs of websites are inherently expressive in support of how the client is using the website.
And the lady in this case is unwilling to do that:
Her problem is not the content, it's the customer.
In practice you would never just change names and dates, you would also change the photos, and probably even more (like colors etc). So this is a silly hypothetical.
This entire case is a silly hypothetical. She has never had a gay couple ask for a wedding website in her life.
...then why did Colorado go after her?
It didn't. She preemptively sued for a injunction.
Yeah, this is problematic. That's no longer expressive conduct (or, rather, it's expressive conduct already completed) and the website is now a widget. If she's unwilling to just change names and dates, then hers is a religious objection, not a free speech objection.
Believe it or not, Justice Kennedy actually addressed this issue. The example he gave was an employer who smiled whenever he met an employee of his own religion but not others. That would be considered de minimus, and not prohibited.
So only denying service is prohibited. The law does not require a coffee server to provide service with a smile. Or to be especially friendly. It just requires serving the coffee.
What about attending the post reception orgy?? At gay weddings that is the price of the free meal.
That's just statutory interpretation. Tell me about the First Amendment.
Because the political reality here is not a matter of public accommodation. The situations of gays in the 21st century is light-years away from blacks under Jim Crow. They can get any service or good they want from hundreds of willing providers.
The nub of the issue is forcing others to affirm their position. The couple here did this not because they could not get someone to design a website for them, but to show they can force their view on someone else. It's affirmation they crave, not a commercial service.
It outrages the left that they cannot use discrimination laws to force others to affirm their position.
Hypo: a religious person asks a gay web designer to create a website that promotes the message that homosexual acts are a grievous sin and destroying the moral fiber of the country. Does the designer have the right to refuse? Or does the First Amendment protect him?
(Something very similar happened in Colorado re cake baking, and the Colorado Civil Rights authorities had to twist themselves into logical pretzels to distinguish that case from the other one.)
It sounds like you think limo drivers should be able to refuse gay couples because many other drivers will accept them.
Of course given this ruling, the First Amendment protects their right to refuse. But even under the dissent's logic, they can refuse because there is no discrimination on the basis of a protected characteristic in the first place.
Yes, we have been through that numerous times. It's BS. The cases are parallel, except the left likes one speech and not the other, so it twists logic to distinguish them.
And, yes, under this decision, the gay web designer can refuse the job. Or not, and take the cash. That's what freedom is.
You didn't answer my question about the limo driver.
Under current law, no, he cannot refuse. Should the law be different? Probably. In most things, the market sorts things out.
"there is no discrimination on the basis of a protected characteristic in the first place."
"Religion" is a protected class under federal law.
It's not discrimination on the basis of religion if the designer refuses all anti-gay sites, secular and religious alike.
That's silly, it's like saying there is no discrimination if the designer refuses all websites for marriages between two males, whether or not they are gay.
sporadicprocess,
That's silly. You imply there are no secular anti-gay sites and that all anti-gay sites are of one religion. Otherwise, the analogy doesn't work.
And, in addition, your example is discrimination based on the protected class of sex.
Your analogy fails. Utterly.
BY the same token, it is not discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation if the web designer (or cake baker) refuses to give services to a gay wedding whether the customer happens to be the gay couple, or one of their straight friends or relatives (e.g., the mother of one of the grooms).
This is where the sophistry comes in. In all of these cases, the service provider made clear that they object to the message, not the customer. They would be willing to provide their services to a gay person who wants a cake that says Happy Birthday, or a website that sells a commercial product or celebrates a Birthday.
The sophistry is insisting that in the gay wedding case, the message is inseparable from the status, while in the religious message case, the two are different. This is utter self-serving horse manure, which anyone with common sense can see through.
Shockingly enough, I strongly disagree it is sophistry to observe same-sex marriages are almost always between two gay people while anti-gay messages are not almost always religious.
That being said, NOVA made a good point that under the reasoning underpinning Bostock (the but-for standard), refusing to serve a same-sex wedding discriminates on the basis of sex (but for Jim being a man, the designer would have served Jim and John's wedding).
Take the Cake Bakery, Toledo Ohio, 2016. Facebook stalked a customer, found out she was a lesbian, cancelled the order because she disapproves of lesbians existing.
For that matter, Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop literally initially accepted a design for a blue-and-pink birthday cake, and only refused when he learned the customer was trans.
The whole idea of "protected classes" itself is alien to the principle of "equal protection"; It's the "Some animals are more equal that others" of civil rights law.
Everyone is treated equally. All are protected because of characteristics that are protected. All are not protected because of characteristics that are nor protected. A tall Christian gets the same protection (or lack thereof) as a short Muslim.
I guarantee you Satanists and pagans will never get respect among lower courts and get cert before the Supreme Court.
You don't like it blame the people whose racism, homophobia and misogyny was so rampant it got baked in to institutions and social mores.
You answer your own question:
"Something very similar happened in Colorado re cake baking, and the Colorado Civil Rights authorities had to twist themselves into logical pretzels to distinguish that case from the other one."
The answer is no. This was never about equality. It was always just hateful people bullying people who are not like themselves.
'The situations of gays in the 21st century is light-years away from blacks under Jim Crow.'
Agreed, but it's hard won and the right are just dying to claw it back.
'The couple here did this'
There was no couple.
"Agreed, but it’s hard won and the right are just dying to claw it back."
Neither are true. Gays' position was never anywhere near as bad as blacks under Jim Crow. And the right has no interest in making it so. Just not being forced to affirm what they don't want to affirm. And having that message surreptitiously taught to their children.
'And the right has no interest in making it so.'
I think a political movement that classes a group of people as 'groomers' have no good intentions planned for that group of people.
'And having that message surreptitiously taught to their children.'
See? Right there. What do you do about a group of people you claim are somehow intrinsically threatening to your children?
"I think a political movement that classes a group of people as ‘groomers’ have no good intentions planned for that group of people."
If they behave as groomers, it is simply an accurate description.
You: "‘The situations of gays in the 21st century is light-years away from blacks under Jim Crow."
Nige: "Agreed."
You: "Gays’ position was never anywhere near as bad as blacks under Jim Crow."
Strawmanning so soon?
the right has no interest in making it so
You don't speak for the right.
I’ll stipulate that the ‘but it’s hard won’ left it open to that interpretation.
Gays’ position was never anywhere near as bad as blacks under Jim Crow.
Well, yes, but don't underestimate how badly gays were treated. Despite their ill-treatment at the hands of law enforcement I don't recall it actually being a crime to be black.
Thanks for laying out the crux clearly = The nub of the issue is forcing others to affirm their position. The couple here did this not because they could not get someone to design a website for them, but to show they can force their view on someone else. It’s affirmation they crave, not a commercial service.
Where do you stand on the limo driver? Is providing his service to the gay couple impermissibly forcing him to affirm their position?
No, because there is nothing expressive about driving people from Point A to Point B.
What if someone started a limo service with the ad:
"Here at Cars for Christians, we provide cars only to carry Christians, so that we can teach others that Christians are the Elect and all others are destined for everlasting damnation. When you ride with us, you ride with God!"
Is it now expressive to refuse to drive folks who outwardly express Judaism?
Could you force those drivers to create a message for their limos that affirms a gay or Jewish lifestyle so gays wouldn't have to be forced to shop around for limo services that cater to them?
I mean, my question is more if someone says that the transportation of an obviously gay person or Jewish person to an obviously public place creates an act of speech because people will think that the driver approves of Jewish or gay folks.
Basically, is openly serving someone at your business (rather than refusing or kicking them out) an act of speech in and of itself.
Well Josh R, I guess one question is: How did the limo driver even know it was a gay couple in the first place?
The limo driver could just get a bad feeling that creeps him/her/them out, and keep on going until finding a fare that doesn't creep him/her/them out. Is that because the couple is gay? Don't know. How do you prove that? You cannot.
Get over the threshold issue, first. Which sounds impossible to me.
I was referring to the limo driver for the couple's wedding which they hire well ahead of time. So, the driver is well aware they are gay before he refuses service.
In gay weddings limo drivers are required to join in the gang bang…it’s tradition.
Based on my extensive research on Pornhub I think that's true for straight weddings, also.
Suppose Ali and Sam want a limo to take them from a photo shoot to a wedding venue, then a reception venue and a hotel. Is the limo driver required or expected do anything at all different if Ali and Sal are the ones getting married, versus simply being guests -- perhaps even platonic friends -- at the wedding?
If not, I don't think the limo driver has a basis to discriminate based on whether they are getting married.
Why won't the limo driver take Ali and Sam if they are 1) the couple, or 2) just friends?
Did you just assume zir pronouns?
By analogy with these cases, maybe the driver objects to marriage between people with gender-ambiguous names, and does not want to help celebrate their wedding.
In the second case, the objection would be to providing any services to people with gender-ambiguous names. Under existing precedent, the government can ban this kind of discrimination.
I was just trying to figure out whether the reason for not taking Ali and Sam if they were guests is the driver objects to the wedding. If so, I agree the limo driver must treat friends Ali-and-Sam the same as betrothed Ali-and-Sam.
Sure.
But is it "light-years away from [the Irish] under [today]"?
is non-existent?
As to your hypo, that's just more bad-faith arguing on your part.
No one got forced to do anything in this court case. It was requesting a pre-emptive injunction. It doesn't seem like there was ever a gay couple that actually wanted this particular designer to make a website for them (and for good reason).
Couple! What couple? This was a purely hypothetical, advisory, made-up bullshit case. So of course the conservatives on the Supreme Court loved it. No pesky facts to worry about!
Apparently, the dissent never bought into this agreement, distinguishing Hurley (I thought the dissent was not persuasive on this point and was surprised Kagan joined it).
"Why are they acting like it’s the end of the world?"
Because the special people must always be catered to in every way. They must never be allowed to experience a negative emotion. Anything else is sacrilege. Sacrilege!!
Haven’t you been paying attention?
Yes. Christians in America have awfully thin skins, I agree.
In the service business, there is massive amounts of work that gets turned away for countless reasons. Attorneys , accountants , architects, etc routinely dont accept work. What sotomayor fails to grasp, is that under her interpretation of the non discrimination laws is that the service provider is required to accept almost all work. (or at least to be perpetually exposed to discrimination claims ).
Their response would be, you can refuse work for all kinds of reasons, just not discriminatory ones. An accountant can turn down work because he is too busy, but not because the would-be client is black, and he hates blacks.
Except they would put you in the position of having to prove your innocence. The denial itself would be seen as proof of racism for far too many.
'Can you turn down work from a black person because you're too busy without being racist about it?' challenge, 2023.
More like, without having to prove yourself innocent of doing it out of racism.
Certainly if you take that approach to it you’re courting disaster. Brett fails the challenge. ‘Brett’s I’m Not Turning You Down Because I’m Racist T-Shirt has a lot of people asking questions already answered by his t-shirt.’
I oftentimes disagree with ReaderY, usually for reasons orthogonal to partisanship. But here, he is correct:
“It’s worth noticing how narrow this case is and how little is actually at stake.”
This isn’t really making new law.
I like the analysis here, though it may be a bit overdetermined compared to the Court's ruling:
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/06/30/s-ct-holds-that-creators-e-g-web-designers-cant-be-required-to-create-material-they-object-to/?comments=true#comment-10134033
There was, in fact, no such "general agreement." (Indeed, there still isn't.) Hurley (and the related Boy Scouts v. Dale) stand only for the proposition that there's not some general exception to the 1A for anti-discrimination law. But neither case had anything to do with commercial businesses.
Not Hurley, but isn't this line drawing what Masterpiece Cakeshop laid out - creativity and engagement turn it into expression, simple picking from a catalogue does not?
We talked a lot about that line drawing here at the VC, but SCOTUS largely punted on that substantive issue; it found that Colorado's civil rights commission was motivated by anti-religious animus and therefore its action against Masterpiece could not be sustained.
Forgive me, I had forgotten in the storm of is and should and morality and law on that case.
That would mean this case is important in laying out a bit more on the line drawing inquiry.
Sans words or specific symbology, don't know. I do know many who scream this is not, though, are thus provably guilty of situational ethics. This crowd (correctly) fought for freedom of speech to change into freedom of expression in decades past.
Uhhh, as long as they approve of the expression.
The other side does, too, as they would ban flag burning.
Who would approve government requiring, or banning, frosting roses on cake?
"Roses symbolize love!"
"No they don't! They're just pretty!"
This is the stupid level we've reached, when the powerful politicians deem to control you.
Do you honestly expect that is going to happen now?
The dissent’s eloquence doesn’t match up to its actual views.
On the one hand:
“Around the country, there has been a backlash to the movement for liberty and equality for gender and sexual minorities. New forms of inclusion have been met with reactionary exclusion. This is heartbreaking. Sadly, it is also familiar. When the civil rights and women’s rights movements sought equality in public life, some public establishments refused. Some even claimed, based on sincere religious beliefs, constitutional rights to discriminate. The brave Justices who once sat on this Court decisively rejected those claims.”
Then they drop this in:
“The company could, for example, offer only wedding websites with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman.”
To use a comparison which would resonate with some commenters, this would be like adorning a mixed-race wedding site with quotes from the late Theodore Bilbo on the dangers of race-mixing.
So the dissenters get to have their (compulsory) cake and eat it, too. Thumping their chests about their bravery in standing up to the haters, then in the fine print saying a designer could sabotage her own product so gay couples won’t want to use it.
What exactly is the *practical* difference between what the majority says and what the dissent says? To be sure, the dissent throws some scraps toward the government by saying it can compel service, but it specifies that the service the government can compel isn’t the kind of service gay customers would actually want.
You know that, as soon as they deliver that cake, the next stage in the lawsuit starts.
You know tons of things that no one else does. Either you're some kinda genius, or your...not.
But Brett's right there. To the extent a particular anti-discrimination law applies, one can't deliver an inferior product to a protected class any more than one can refuse to deal with that class. And a product that denigrates the customer is an inferior product.
I don't read it as Brett saying the next lawsuit is about low-quality compliance, I read it as saying after the cakes, next comes a lawsuit demanding mandatory praise or some other obeisance.
The mayor or guvnuh of NY, I forget which, threatened problems for people who didn't use proper pronouns in business dealings.
This seems to crack that open as legal failure. They get to (?) be rude to drive people away? How much rude? Web sites and posters? Direct speech? How rude?
The Perfecting of Mankind continues. What a time to be alive!
You don't even remember the anecdote you're generalizing and interpolating based on.
That a lunch counter can't put up a "white only" sign, but it can put up "we <3 segregation" sign.
The customer can then decide, for themselves, if that's a place they want to give money to.
I'm not sure why you think this is complicated.
Why is this sentence complicated?
“The company could, for example, offer only wedding websites with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman.”
It's not. Hence why I'm mocking you for your confusion.
Would *you* buy a "wedding website[] with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman"?
That you think that's relevant further supports that you're easily confused.
The dissent claims to champion gay rights for those planning same-sex weddings. But the only right the dissent defends is the right to force a Web designer to make a product the consumer would not want.
I'm sorry you're confused on this point.
That's hilarious.
Because I'm not projecting my feelings onto others, you've concluded that I'm confused.
All the while you are still not understanding the dissent.
“Crucially, the law “does not dictate the content of speech at all, which is only ‘compelled’ if, and to the extent,” the company offers “such speech” to other customers. FAIR, 547 U. S., at 62. Colorado does not require the company to “speak [the State’s] preferred message.” Ante, at 19. Nor does it prohibit the company from speaking the company’s preferred message. The company could, for example, offer only wedding websites with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman. Brief for Respondents 15. (Just as it could offer only t-shirts with such quotations.) The company could also refuse to include the words “Love is Love” if it would not provide those words to any customer. All the company has to do is offer its services without regard to customers’ protected characteristics. Id., at 15–16. Any effect on the company’s speech is therefore “incidental” to the State’s content-neutral regulation of conduct. FAIR, 547 U. S., at 62; see Hurley, 515 U. S., at 572–573.”
Do you think a gay-married couple would get any practical benefit from a “website[] with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman”?
They’re not simply getting a meal from a lunch counter with racist signage, per your example. They’re getting a Web site with a “homophobic” message to display to those who visit the site.
Gay-married couples wouldn't be able to get a Web site they'd actually want to use.
Do you really not understand that you don't have the right or ability to tell other people what they do or don't want?
You can’t claim with a straight face that gay-married couples would want to pay for a “homophobic” Web site.
So you’re driven to one of the last resorts of those who are defending a bad position – you engage in straw-manning. Obviously I didn't say what gay-married people *ought* to want, but what they actually *do* want, in this planet we actually live on.
The fact is, you can’t defend the dissent. The dissenters thump their chests and claim to be standing up for the dignity of gay people, but in the end all they do is allow gay people the right to buy Web sites with “homophobic” content.
The mountain labored, and brought forth a mouse.
Your attempts to defend the dissent grow more and more desperate.
The point the dissent is making is that this whole case is stupid and contrived.
Let's assume this lady has some religious beliefs and she doesn't want to make websites violating them. No problem! Just say "I make Orthodox Catholic wedding websites" or whatever her constraints are. Then if a gay satanist asked for an Orthodox Christian wedding website, she'd have to supply one. But she wouldn't have to provide anyone with a non-Orthodox-Christian website.
The trouble here is that her objection seems to be suspiciously focused on gay people. Really, she's willing to provide any wedding website other than a gay one? Satanist, no problem! Polygamist website, great! Just no gays!
The dissent is merely pointing out that this is a bad case, and as we know, bad cases make for bad law.
The dissenters compared themselves to the "brave justices" who fought Jim Crow. So it's only fair to mock their self-administered tongue-bath and show the inconsequential nature of their own position.
"The customer can then decide, for themselves, if that's a place they want to give money to."
Theoretical question, Escher: Do you think, in principle, the government could apply non-discrimination law to both sides in this commercial transaction? For example, forbid individuals choosing where to buy lunch from considering the religious views of the restaurant owner posted all over the walls and the menu.
Actual question, ducksalad: this is a discussion of the dissent. Why would my views regarding a hypothetical that --to the best of my knowledge-- is not considered anywhere in the dissent (or indeed, ever by the SCOTUS in any decision) matter one whit?
It's true that as a practical matter the end result is the same.
How is creating a custom wedding cake design different than this?
I don't think it is. Professor EV thinks it is, at least if there are no words on it. Which is bizarre given the myriad forms of expression found protected by the First Amendment.
'The government could require "an unwilling Muslim movie director to make a film with a Zionist message," or "an atheist muralist to accept a commission celebrating Evangelical zeal,"'
It's funny, we don't ever hear of Muslim directors and atheist muralists complaining about being forced to do work they object to. Just homophobes.
I would shorten your remark: "we don’t ever hear of Muslim directors and atheist muralists...being forced to do work they object to"
Is it worth pointing out that the web designer in this case wasn't actualy being asked to do work she objected to either?
Intriguing; please clarify.
(Are you alluding to the point I made above about the lack of practical difference between the majority and minority? In which case we would seem to be on the same page.)
Does Google Translate have a "Nige" setting?
There was no gay couple.
From the decision:
"Lorie Smith wants to expand her graphic design business, 303 Creative LLC, to include services for couples seeking wedding websites. But Ms. Smith worries that Colorado will use the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act to compel her—in violation of the First Amendment—to create websites celebrating marriages she does not endorse. To clarify her rights, Ms. Smith filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction to prevent the State from forcing her to create websites celebrating marriages that defy her belief that marriage should be reserved to unions between one man and one woman."
So, yes, there wasn't yet a 'gay' couple. That there would be such a couple showing up at her door almost immediately after she started doing business, however, was pretty predictable.
'That there would be such a couple showing up at her door almost immediately after she started doing business, however, was pretty predictable.'
When the insidious gays hunting for Christian homophobes making websites are so endemic you have to make them up.
Tell Elaine Photography about it. They ran into a couple who were calling around to ask different wedding photographers if they'd work for a SSM event, and didn't settle on Elaine until they got that "no".
They weren't shopping for photos, they were shopping for a lawsuit.
Likewise Masterpiece Bakery, every time they win a case, within hours some loon shows up to order a new lawsuit.
Tell it to... two businesses in all of the United States? The predatory gays were so tied up by just two businesses this business got tired of waiting and had to invent some gays?
"every time they win a case, within hours some loon shows up to order a new lawsuit."
Do you think that's scalable? Of course you do - every liberal is a zealot whose life exists to push their cause.
As usual, you are full of it. Identify one case when "Muslim directors and atheist muralists" were forced to do anything. People don't complain about being forced to do something, when they are not forced to do something.
They weren't my examples. They're from the Court's reasoning.
Which you then expanded upon by your remark, "It’s funny, we don’t ever hear of . . . "
The Court was using hypotheticals to make a legal point.
You used a fallacious comment to make snarky social commentary.
You're agreeing with me that the hypotheticals are facile, you just hate agreeing with me.
No, I hate your utter dishonesty. Hypotheticals have their place to illustrate a legal point. They fail when you use them to make social commentary about non-existent phenomena.
You're mad because I made fun of the hypotheticals?
This entire case is a hypothetical to make a point.
Well that's because there are literally hundreds of non-discrimination related lawsuits every year. But the public is pretty A-OK with laws saying you can't discriminate based on race, religion, or sex, so those cases don't get attention, and when the discriminating company loses in court, it doesn't get appealed up to the SCOTUS.
Simply put, non-discrimination in public accommodation laws aren't controversial... until you apply them to queer folk. If this woman had asked for an injunction because she wanted to refuse all Christians, she would never have gotten the national attention, and never gotten to the SCOTUS. But because she chose to hate on gay folk, she had a pre-built audience, anti-gay pro bono lawyers ready to carry her all the way to the SCOTUS, and SCOTUS justices that have been waiting for another go at this since Kennedy left.
I don't know about "the public," but I personally have as much problem with Lester Maddox being forced to serve blacks in his restaurant as I do with Jack Phillips being forced to bake a cake for a "gay wedding."
As an atheist website design I for one am pleased that now I don't have to worry about being legally mandated to create Christian websites.
Don't be absurd.
This SCOTUS is never going to hold that you can refuse a Christian customer, not on the basis of the message (again, this woman admitted that the actual content of the hypothetical websites was irrelevant, merely who it was for) but on the basis that they're Christian.
Anyone who says otherwise is either an idiot, or hoping their listeners are.
an unwilling Muslim movie director to make a film with a Zionist message
BTW, there are Muslims who are Zionists. Not many, but there are a few.
And there's nothing about being atheist that requires anyone to turn down religious-themed work, either.
Congresswoman Tlaib wants a single country solution so eventually they can take over Israel.
There is a single country today; Israel.
She wants it to be majority Muslim.
Well....that lady is going to be really disappointed. Israel's population proportion is currently 7:2, favoring Jews, and getting more pronounced over time.
I'm not sure what statistics you're looking at, but it looks to me like it's more like 60:40, or 75:25 if you don't count the Gaza strip. Israel may be able to implement an apartheid state, but it can't pretend that the Palestinians don't exist at all.
Those government stipends to "study the Torah" seems more likely to be for the purpose of baby-making.
As, yes, the Israeli apartheid, where Muslim citizens have the same rights as Jewish ones.
They always show themselves, Toranth. Like moths to flames.
Except, of course, they don't.
That’s why she wants a one state solution.
Rev Arthur Copeland is by far my favorite casualty in the culture war. I hope he will share with us what it feels like to be utterly dominated by the will of his betters in the West’s conservative Christian supermajority.
Ok, that made me laugh out loud. Are you releated to Sandra (formerly OBL)?
She is Arthur's kryptonite.
Breaking News, 1st Amendment means what it says, just like the 2d and all the other ones.
Muslim weddings are phony weddings.
So speech is purely a matter of oral utterance and a free press is about ownership of printing prcsses, no more, right?
I wonder what some Judges' billionaire sugar daddies thought the outcome should be.
Now Gorsuch has a "sugar daddy"?
Derp.
I find these cases a little tricky, first because the line between speech and non-speech is not so clear. If I hire someone to express my idea in a certain form is that my speech or theirs?
Suppose I hire a lawyer to draw up my will. May the lawyer refuse on the grounds that he disapproves of an organization I want to leave money to?
What if the web designer has a standard template that she uses, and a same-sex couple wants her to design a site using that template, but with content the couple provides?
What if people could simply do work when they agree to it and not do work when they don’t?
That is too simple, Ben. 🙂
It is - this was the argument used to defend de facto Jim Crow.
They'd be in a union.
Sorry, not "progressive" enough; allows too much freedom.
This case leaves those questions unanswered because one of the stipulations was the owner creates original, customized and tailored sites through close collaboration with the client.
As a first approximation, I'll use the limo driver heuristic I used up-thread: if the only difference is the name of the beneficiary, and otherwise the good or service is the same that anyone else would get, I don't think the lawyer would have a valid reason to reject the request on a protected-class basis.
But (I think) that rule is a sufficient one, not a necessary one. If the good or service is slightly customized to the facts that the lawyer objects to, I'm not sure how to resolve the question. If it is heavily customized or requires the lawyer to strongly represent the objected-to position, I am much more in favor of the lawyer being able to reject the job.
As the lady admitted in court, if you take a wedding site design she's okay with, then swap the names and dates for a gay couple, she is no longer okay with it.
Similarly, Jack Phillips was upfront that he would object to making a plain white sheet cake for a gay wedding. And if the law allowed it, he would also refuse pre-baked cookies off the shelf if he knew they were going to a gay wedding.
That is why people keep saying the "I'm refusing the message, not the person" argument is bullshit. Because if the acceptability for the message hinges not on the content of the message, but on the sexuality of the customer, it's not the message that you're objecting to.
"Suppose I hire a lawyer to draw up my will. May the lawyer refuse on the grounds that he disapproves of an organization I want to leave money to? "
That seems a pretty plausible question, when you consider that GoFundMe and PayPal routinely do exactly that. Worse, actually, because GoFundMe has actually attempted to take donations to a cause they decided they didn't like, and give it to somebody they approved of, instead of returning them.
Both.
Yes, but there's no actual protected class there so I don't see what this is supposed to be relevant to.
You mean a hypothetical in which the web designer is just performing a ministerial act of copying and pasting the customer's content? I still think the web designer prevails. You're still compelling the web designer to speak a message the web designer objects to.
Interesting to note that in Canada, this decision would not be possible. You can, indeed, legally compel speech in Canada.
"First Amendment to US Constitution not applicable in Canada! Film at 11."
Isn't it compelled speech when the government forces you to complete a 1040 every year?
The edges are different, but Canada does have a free speech guarantee that includes the right not to speak. In RJR-MacDonald Inc. v. Canada (1995) a law requiring tobacco companies to put government anti-smoking messages on their products was held to be unconstitutional compelled speech.
Professor Volokh, I read your brief. I'm sorry, but the distinction you are making vis a vis a cake, escapes me.
Cake with writing, or photo, or image: You cannot compel the baker to create or sell it.
Plain cake: The baker is out of luck; compulsion.
Does Freedom of association play a role here? Does that right 'give way' to another?
Association rights are limited to personal (e.g., family and friends) and expressive (the association itself sends a message, for example the Boy Scouts in Dale). A business cannot (at least generally) claim either aspect in refusing to serve gays (or blacks).
We should let them = A business cannot (at least generally) claim either aspect in refusing to serve gays (or blacks)
And then let the market take the appropriate corrective action. The market is brutally effective.
We had this argument in the 1960s.
Such a simplistic view of freedom results in a profoundly unfree society.
Yea, we know that the only freedoms you lefties care about are killing third trimester babies and having unprotected gay anal sex. Things like private property rights, free speech rights, free association rights, and the right to keep and bear arms are outdated for your progressive minds.
"We had this argument in the 1960s. "
Times change. A few scattered refusals to bake a cake or do a website is not like the legally mandated, often supported by private violence Jim Crow situation.
Gays in Colorado seeking a website have thousands of in-state options and tens [even hundreds] of thousands of out of state options, even overseas.
Treating 2023 America like its 1960 Alabama is dumb.
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, tho.
Oh, and nothing changed in 60 years. Yeah, alright Sarcastr0, the US has had 'brain freeze' for 60+ years and no attitudes changed. That's your argument. Ok fine.
It ain't a very good one.
Next you'll tell us the science is settled.
Well they weren't changed by people sixty years ago saying 'Oh and nothing has changed in sixty years!'
Who the fuck cares what's changed in 60 years? The logic you are using resulted in a system that was a horrorshow if illiberty.
That argument is flawed; we have material evidence.
Find a new argument. Don't just argue 'it'll never happen like that again.'
See also: Shelby County.
See? I told you. Your argument is a version of: muh, the science is settled. 🙂
Understand. Let's suppose a business opens up in my town and states, with a sign that has big, honking huge letters in the front window: No Jews allowed! This business won't serve Jews and I don't like them. They all have big noses and control the banks and media!
Imagine that sign for a moment.
Would my blood boil, seeing this? Yup. Do I think it is morally right? Nope. Do I think that anti-Semite's right of free association allows him/her/they/it to do that? Yeah I do, ultimately. That is my personal philosophical belief. Our right of free association is as important as our right of free speech, or free thought. Now...what would Commenter_XY personally do in response? Why, he would exercise his 1A rights and publicize 'far and wide' to the very ends of the earth what this business has in their front window. I would want every Tribe Member on Planet Earth to know what is in that business' front window, and would do everything in my power to personally ensure that happens. Then, just step back.
Let me ask you...just how long do you think in 2023 America that an overtly anti-Semitic business is gonna last? Not too long. And the NYT does not count; I know they've been in business for years.
Now substitute Black, for Jew. Commenter_XY would personally do exactly the same thing: publicize 'far and wide'. I would give that business owner a hefty dose of what they evidently want: publicity. And I would do everything I could to make sure every person on the damned planet knows what is in that front window. Not because I agree with the useless POS, but because I think the result will be the same, only quicker. Imagine the outrage. It would be substantial (rightly so). As before, I would just step back.
It is not the 1960's anymore, Sarcastr0. I think the Republic can withstand having our rights of free association put back on par with free speech.
This isn't science.
There is a counterexample showing your logic is flawed. You can't just handwaive that away.
The law does not deal purely in practical upshots. Some on the right argue it doesn't deal in upshots at all, but I'm not one of those types. But you can't turn a bad law into a good one by appealing to 'the flaws will never be a big deal.'
Market forces and social pressure don't solve discrimination every time. We know this. Doesn't matter if in 2023 we think it's better, laws based on the concept of free association being issue-free are based on a faulty premise.
And, it won't be 2023 forever.
And, Shelby County used this 'times are better' and was almost immediately shown to be wrong.
Religious claimants (who tend to be bigots with remarkable frequency) will continue to play 'head we win, tails you lose' -- using the law and shield and sword to arrange 'no one can discriminate against us, yet we can discriminate against anyone we choose' -- for so long as they can.
Conservatives, Republicans, Federalist Society members, gay-bashers, racists, evangelicals, white supremacists, Christian dominionists, the Heritage Foundation, the Alliance Defending Freedom, and their allies will press this point so long as they can.
In an America that becomes less bigoted, less religious, less backward, less white, and less rural every day, the backlash seems predictable and may be severe.
So enjoy your superstitious bigotry and political victories while you can, clingers . . . and try to limit the whining when the culture war imposes adult supervision and the tide of American progress carries your stale, ugly preferences into irrelevance.
Arthur, should we call Sandra (formerly OBL)? 😛
Go ahead. It usually takes at least a dozen of you disaffected, bigoted dumbasses to keep up with me.
Enjoy the rest of the culture war . . . I know I will!
Sandra (formerly OBL) is your kryptonite. She has no problem keeping up with you, or cutting you down to size, evidently.
This case is a line drawing problem. We all generally agree that there are some things that can be compelled, and some things that can't. How do we draw the line between them?
There are at least 6 factors that might figure in my moral calculus regardless of the current law:
Intimacy -- can the state compel intimate association with someone else (e.g., when renting a room in the house you live in)?
Urgency -- can the state compel someone to do an act where there is immediate danger? (e.g., a doctor to perform a procedure they disagree with)
Expressiveness -- can the state compel someone to express themselves contrary to their beliefs. This was the primary issue here, but I think it's only part of the general problem. Services where you provide the identical item (most retail sales) might be presumed non-expressive.
Essentiality -- Is is more proper for the state to compel someone to provide essential services (food, housing, groceries) versus non-critical services (face painting, wedding cakes)?
Identifiability -- Can the state compel someone to provide services where they are clearly identified and might therefore be associated with something they disagree with? E.g. while I think we generally agree that a hotel has to provide a room to someone who is in a religious cult the management disagrees with, do they have to provide meeting space for that cult's annual meeting, with the cult's name prominently displayed under the logo of the hotel during the meeting and the hotel's name and address is included on all of the literature associated with the cult's meeting.
Substitutability -- Does the availability of alternatives alter whether the state can compel actions by a specific actor?
Why do you think it's acceptable for you to erupt inside little boys that you're supposedly mentoring? Are you at least on PrEP?
Um, excuse me, Sonia, Elena, Ketanji, but what else do you call the government punishing people for (incorrectly!) thinking there's anything wrong with "gay marriage"?
Colorado won't punish thinking that there's something wrong with SSM until they have the necessary mind reading technology. Until then they're settling for punishing acting on such thoughts.
If only they had your mind-reading skills.
In theory, the passage
"The government could require "an unwilling Muslim movie director to make a film with a Zionist message,"
should be as repugnant as
The government could require "an unwilling Christian movie director to make a film with a Zionist message,"
Did you know that quite a few of the early Zionists -- e.g., in the U.K. -- were Christians? I suggest you read up on the background of the Balfour Declaration.
Those Christians (i.e. white saviors) had similar ideas about African Americans. (see the American Colonization's Society's efforts to achieve the "national liberation" of African Americans by resettling them from America back to Africa)
Yeah, that whole Liberia thing didn't turn out so hot in any respect.
Indeed, most Liberians desperately long to return to their ancestral homeland of America.
And yet, if government passed a law you must have an icing decoration of an eagle on all wedding cakes, or were not permitted to have icing roses, how people would screetch free speech in design!
Let us all kneel and pray for a giant asteroid to moletnize the top 30 miles of crust for this worthless planet.
Jeez, take it down a notch dramarama.
Well, this was expected.
Any bets on if this lady ever actually starts doing wedding websites? And if she does, do you think she'll make it explicit and obvious on the site that she's a bigot, or is she (like most other Christians that want to refuse service to gays) going to save that as a special treat for the queer people that didn't sufficiently google her beforehand?
The biggest bigots are you lefties.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/local-restaurant-refuses-service-to-conservative-advocacy-group/
No takers, huh?
Yeah, not surprising. We all know that modern bigots aren't as brave as 60's-era bigots were.
You're unfamiliar with the facts of the case. That she wanted to make that explicit and obvious on the site — though presumably not phrased the way you did — is one of her two claims.
You read a post where I doubted this bigot's sincerity and you concluded that meant I didn't know what she'd said?
Is this like idiots who are like "okay, I know you just said you aren't a Christian, but I'm going to assume that means you just haven't heard enough about it, and if I just keep talking you'll come around"?
Yeah, no, I've heard it. I'm just skeptical she meant it.
re: "what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours"
How is that possibly an "unattractive lesson"? Sotomayor is morally and ethically wrong. Discriminatory thoughts and motivations are bad but a government that thinks it has the power to police them is much worse.
I couldn't agree more. A much more unattractive proposition is:
I get to tell you what to do (with your time / labor / premises) because I have the government with a big club standing behind me, ready to pounce on you.
Indeed, the distinction between "my stuff" and "your stuff" is one of the earliest stages in learning morality. It's far from an unattractive lesson, instead it's critical.
I don't follow Sotomayor's dissent. Let's imagine we're talking about a painter instead.
The painter takes commissions. Paintings are quintessentially speech. The painter refuses to depict some things. He's willing to sell paintings to anyone, but only paintings he's willing to paint.
So the state's problem is not what services are offered, but the content of those services. How is that not quintessentially protected speech? It is not incidental at all. That some people want paintings the artist is unwilling to paint does not let the state force them to paint those paintings. The customer can commission a painting the painter is willing to paint, or can look elsewhere.
A painter-by-commission isn't a public accommodation.
In the state of Colorado, a company that designs and hosts websites apparently is.
As such, the paint-by-commission guy isn't bound by non-discrimination laws, and the website company is.
And please note, this lady's lawyers, at no point, argued that her company wasn't a public accommodation. So if you want to argue that she shouldn't have been, take it up with her lawyers.
Public accommodations don't have to say what you want them to say
If a gay wedding coordinator wants to hire Smith to do a website for a heterosexual wedding, Co public accommodation law can force her to sell to him.
But they can't force her to make a website for a same sex "wedding", and it doesn't matter what the characteristics are of the person who wants to hire her
Because I have an absolute 1st Amendment right NOT to speak your message
And only a total thug would claim otherwise
Sorry dude, but it looks like some of your text was cut-off.
How does your rant relate to my point about what is and isn't a public accommodation in Colorado?
My point is "public accommodation" is a meaningless phrase.
Because it doesn't matter if they are a "public accommodation", they still have a 1st Amendment right not to say what you want them to say
I don't know why you think that.
And I don't know why you would think otherwise.
Isn't life full of mysteries?
Jack Phillips (Masterpiece Cakeshop) didn't decline to bake a wedding cake. He declined to decorate a wedding cake in a way offensive to his religious beliefs. Were he a deli owner who declined to prepare a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich, he would have been acting similarly. But the State of Colorado has a vendetta to force everyone to endorse a lifestyle that is forbidden by the Holy Bible. Thus, Jack must be reeducated.
So what's stopping anyone from saying their religion means they won't bake cakes for blacks or any other protected class?
You're basically going back to Jim Crow bullshit and dumbass bigots like you couldn't be more excited by it.
What I'm really excited for is when the civil war starts and people like you are put into gas chambers.
Until then, I'll settle for SCOTUS rulings.
That's not the proper analogy.
Suppose you believe rap videos promote violence, misogyny, crime, fatherlessness and other social ills. A black rapper comes in and wants you to design a cake celebrating a wrap on his rap video.
Are you refusing to design and bake the cake because he's black?
Can I go into a backery owned by a black person and tell them I
m holding a cross burning "I love the KKK" party, and demand that he make special refreshments for the party?
Yes?
No?
If No, then no one else can demand that Jack make them a cake for their special event.
Period. Dot
Jim Crow, you pathetic moron, was a situation where the State FORCED people to discriminate. That's entirely different from a situation whenever everyone gets the freedom to run their own business they way they want
Your problem is that you're a morally wretched thug who desperately wants to trample everyone freedom, and you're upset SCOTUS won't let you
To the contrary, he refused to even discuss decorating the cake, he refused the couple before the conversation got that far. Pretending that it was the decorations and design that made the cake unacceptable, rather then who it was for, is just revisionism.
Could a gay couple buy a birthday cake from him?
That's right, he refused to let someone else force him to be involed with something he didn't want to be involved with
It's called "freedom"
... can you really not distinguish between someone correctly stating the facts of a case, and advocacy?
To the degree that I have views on this issue (and I do), I haven't discussed them today. I've been rather disciplined with sticking to the facts of the case, the majority opinion and the dissent.
Your aggression then is not truly directed at me and my views (because, again, they aren't being shared here), but at... the facts of the case.
It's... odd.
It's pretty telling how folks have to change the facts to rail against this case
SCOTUS decides you can be a bigot and be protected. More at 11.
Lot of progress rolled back by an illegitimate SCOTUS. Burn it all down. Nominate 10 more and make a law they serve for 6 years and that's it. Done.
SCOTUS decides you can be a bigot and be protected. More at 11.
Why yes, you jackbooted fascist, that's exactly right!
Leftist whines because people are allowed to disagree with him. more at 11
A business open to the public seeks to deny gay and lesbian customers the full and equal enjoyment of its services based on the owner's religious belief that same-sex marriages are "false."
As usual, Sotomayor is lying.
If you're a gay wedding coordinator, and you want to hire her to make a website for a heterosexual wedding, this ruling doesn't let her tell you to FOAD.
It's not the characteristics of the customer, it's the custom work you want her to do.
And you simply have no right to demand someone else do custom work they don't want to do
What are you talking about? The majority just said she can say "FOAD" (assuming that means "fuck off and die"?) to anyone, regardless of non-discrimination in public accommodation laws.
That said...
So you're calling her a liar? 'cause she was pretty upfront that she wants to discriminate against gay folk.
You really can't read, can you?
This is the start of the 3rd paragraph of the syllabus. it's page 1 of the decision:
Before the district court, Ms. Smith and the State stipulated to a number of facts: Ms. Smith is “willing to work with all people regard- less of classifications such as race, creed, sexual orientation, and gender” and “will gladly create custom graphics and websites” for clients of any sexual orientation; she will not produce content that “contradicts biblical truth” regardless of who orders it;
So no, you pathetic moron / liar, she was pretty upfront that she would NOT discriminate against people just because they were gay
So she would sell me a design that says "just married", the same as she would sell to you? Pretty sure she said many times she won't do that.
So won't sell ANYONE a website that says "just married".
She will sell people a custom website that says "Joe and Mary are getting married, isn't it great! Here's more about them...."
What she sued for is the right to NOT have to make websites that say "Joe and Mike are getting married, isn't it great! Here's more about them...."
Could you all tell me why it is you get all worked up about a SCOTUS ruling when you don't have the SLIGHTEST clue about the case?
Before you EVER comment on a SCOTUS case, you should take 10 minutes to read the syllabus and maybe the first part of the decision / dissent you're going to rail against
Or else, you know, have read the Circuit Court ruling, so you actually understand the case before it's decided.
All this is pretty basic, and anyone who bothered to be even slightly informed about the case would already know it.
it's almost like you're just a totalitarian thug who can't handle the thought of individual freedom
Does a wedding website designer have the right to refuse to do a Nazi themed web design? How abotu a pro-KKK one?
Yes?
Then they have the right to refuse to do a pro-gay one. Period.
Only an utter moron would WANT someone to design a website for them when said designer doesn't want anything to do with it. This isn't about "treat me fairly" this is about "I'm a bullying thug and complete scum of the Earth, and I want to force you to bow down to me."
And the proper response to that is FOAD
What do mentally ill people do when they get alot of political power?
Steal classified documents and hide them in their tacky bathrooms at their Florida homes.
How come alla youse guys voted for a guy famous for using litigation as a tool to bully people?
If you truly believe that, then feel free to organize a serious effort to repeal the public accommodation provisions of the CRA (1964).
If you're uninterested in that endeavor, then you're admitting that you're okay with obligating service providers of all stripes to ignore your race, ethnicity, religion, sex, and national origin, and serve you anyway.
And if you're okay with those other parts of the CRA, but object to similarly crafted laws that include sexual orientation? Well, then your problem isn't with "bullying", it's just that you're anti-gay.
I believe that all "public accommodation" laws should be tossed. I've watched for the last 7 years as the Left has fought tooth and nail to censor, attack, and drive out of public life conservatives, and no "public accommodation laws" have stood in their way.
Since you intolerant bigots and scum are totally unwilling to show tolerance for those of us who disagree with you, no one should be protected
You really must hate most of America, because your idiosyncratic constitutional views are not widely adopted or shared, and you don't seem to allow much reasonable dissent from your take.
Was I unclear?
Yeah, no, that's pretty clear.
Until you do that, then you're just whining about gay people and there's no reason for anyone to think you're serious. After all, y'all have been claiming you're against all non-discrimination laws for years and years now. And then you do nothing. Even the cases like this one don't share your (claimed) impulse. ADF, Liberty and so-on have no interest in rolling back all non-discrimination laws, they just target the ones that protect gay folk.
So, uh, yeah. Feel free to continue to spit and bitch and moan. And I'm going to disregard you as an ineffective illiterate loudmouth. Want to prove me wrong? Put your money where you mouth is and get organized.
But if you're not willing to do that, then don't be surprised if everyone just thinks you're another internet tough guy.
The use of money obscures part of what's going on here. I don't mean in the sense that it's a financial transaction, but in the sense that an there's an exchange medium being used rather than a direct trade. But a money transaction isn't morally different from a barter transaction.
1. If the situations were reversed (gay web designer, Christian wedding customer), I'm assuming the leftist would still allow the customer to decline to contract a particular web designer due to the designer being gay. If they *would* prevent a customer from choosing what business to go to based on whatever arbitrary criteria the customer chooses -- well, the discussion ends there, but at least the leftist is being consistent.
2. Suppose that instead of paying with cash, the customer wants to trade service for service. Suppose that the customers are car mechanics. They propose giving Ms. Smith's care a tuneup in exchange for her designing their website. As I said, there is no moral difference here, it's just clearer. Instead of the customer tuning up someone else's car, receiving money, and offering that money to Ms. Smith, it's a direct trade. If you think there *is* a moral difference, you'd best be able to explain why.
3. There are now three possible non-discrimination policies:
a. The exchange does not take place unless both parties want it to (the libertarian position).
b. Neither party can refuse. Sounds like it's unworkable and would lead to dystopia if it *could* be made to work, but when have either of those objections stopped leftists?
c. One party may refuse, but the other may not -- in which case, they don't have equal rights.
The leftists on the thread will probably scoff and call this contrived, but money is not necessary for a free market. It just makes it a whole lot easier and scalable. And before you make a claim regarding the money being printed by the government, money doesn't have to be -- it can be gold, Bitcoin, seashells, or whatever instead of green fiat paper.
So. Outline some non-discrimination laws that work for service-for-service trades and provide equality before the law. Once you have such a system, extending it to include money is trivial. But work that part out first and get back to us.
If the situations were reversed (gay web designer, Christian wedding customer), I’m assuming the leftist would still allow the customer to decline to contract a particular web designer due to the designer being gay. Hypothetical hypocricy is always so pure!
A public business is a public business; I don’t see how not using money changes this fact.
The thing that comfy libertarians gotta understand is that liberals are into freedom, we just realize that maximizing operational choice for the most people is more complicated than just letting you spend the most money for the most things; many are not situated like you.
See: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."
I didn’t say not using money changes that fact. To the contrary, I said not using money makes it clear what’s actually happening — that there is no moral difference between the person running the business and their customer, and they both have equal right to refuse to engage in trade with each other, because when you clear things up, they're *doing exactly the same thing*.
And yeah, I’ve heard the Anatole France quote before, many times. Citing it is a sure sign of a person without principles.
An aside: not that this alters the morality of the situation, but if the customer refuses, the tangible loss to the business is way more than the loss to the customer if the business refuses. A good graphic designer charges maybe $200 to design wedding invitations, so they’re out that much money. The customer… has to find the next graphic designer on the list on Yelp. The horror! So much for the disparity of power that leftists like to go on about.
there is no moral difference between the person running the business and their customer
I don't believe you have established that. Appealing to incredulity is a great sign you're confident, but not convincing to those who are not already convinced.
I’ve heard the Anatole France quote before, many times. Citing it is a sure sign of a person without principles.
I notice you didn't engage with the issue noted by the quote. It is a quote about the moral imperative to examine real-world consequences, not just bask in the consistency of your principles.
"A public business is a public business"
So Facebook is a "public business", and therefore can not refuse to host what I want to post there?
No, says Sarcastr0, I don't like you, so they can refuse you. Ihey just can't refuse people I like.
No.
There is no serious, organized effort to roll back all non-discrimination in public accommodation laws. Even the Libertarian party doesn't care about that.
Fact is, even the folks who go fishing for clients so they can get anti-gay lawsuits to the SCOTUS (like this one) don't want to get rid of non-discrimination in public accommodation law, they just want to discriminate against gay people. The idea that gay people could legally discriminate against them for being anti-gay Christians is anathema to them.
But hey, feel free to prove me wrong and get organized and serious. Until then though, there's no reason to treat this kind of hypothetical seriously.
While most of the talk about the decision is on the LGBT... community, there are other communities that are also allowed to not be forced to give speech that they object to.
One would be a Jewish baker or website maker who was asked to make a cake or a web invitation to a party to honor Adolph Hitler's birthday.
The First Amendment allows us to have our own thoughts, it also should allow us to only speak or spread those thoughts that we agree with, not those we don't.
That was the whole idea of the Court allowing people to opt out of saying The Pledge of Allegiance, or to burn the Flag.
Heckler's aside, still believe that more speech is the remedy not suppression of speech to public issues.
That'd be refusing the message, not the customer, and has no problem with non-discrimination law.
If the baker wanted to refuse Germans, that would be refusing the customer, and would be a problem with non-discrimination law.
Interesting case with significant implications for speech creators. It reinforces that web designers, photographers, and similar professionals can't be forced to create content that goes against their beliefs. This distinction between speech and general services makes sense. It also highlights the importance of choosing a web design service that aligns with your vision. I recently came across https://www.apexdigitalagency.com.au/website-design-perth/ which specializes in custom website design in Perth. Having creative control is crucial, and this ruling underscores the value of that freedom.