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Are Abortion Bans Takings?
Legal scholar Julie Suk argues the answer is "yes." The idea has a solid basis in natural rights theory, but is at odds with longstanding legal doctrine. It also has potentially very broad libertarian implications.

Are laws restricting abortion takings of "private property" that require the government to pay "just compensation" under the Fifth Amendment? In a recent law review article on abortion rights (pp. 504-508) and in her important new book After Misogyny, Fordham law professor Julie Suk argues that the answer is "yes." Her argument is a fascinating example of a famous left-liberal law professor arguing for a major expansion of Takings Clause protection for property rights.
The position she advances has a strong basis in natural rights theories of property, including those advanced by James Madison, the principal framer of the Takings Clause. But it also cuts against centuries of legal precedent and practice. If accepted by the courts, it would have fairly radical libertarian implications that would make me happy, but might be less welcome to many left-of-center advocates of abortion rights. Suk's theory faces an uphill fight under US Supreme Court precedent. But it could perhaps fare better under some state constitutions. Her argument is also notable as one of several examples of left-liberals potentially rethinking their traditionally negative view of constitutional property rights.
The basic argument here is admirably clear and simple. People have property rights in their bodies. Laws banning abortion restrict those rights. Moreover, the imposition is a pretty severe one. To put it in more legalistic terms, the Supreme Court has ruled in Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid (2021) that even a temporary physical occupation of property qualifies as a "per se" taking, automatically requiring compensation. By similar logic, abortion bans can be seen as compelling unwanted physical occupation of a woman's body by the fetus.
The idea that people have property rights in their bodies is far from a new one. John Locke famously defended such rights in the 17th century. So too did James Madison, the Founder principally responsible for drafting the Takings Clause and getting it included in the Bill of Rights. In his famous 1792 essay on "Property," Madison wrote that property includes not only "a man's land, or merchandize, or money," but also - among other things - "the safety and liberty of his person." He goes on to say "[t]hat is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest."
As an example of such "arbitrary seizures," Madison gives the case of "a magistrate issuing his warrants to a press gang" (referring to the then-common practice of governments seizing men for forced labor or military service). But it's not hard to see how coerced pregnancy can also be considered a seizure of "one class of citizens for the service of the rest." Locke's and Madison's arguments have been extended by modern libertarians (myself included), who have long argued for a broad notion of self-ownership. The idea of self-ownership was also central to the anti-slavery movement that inspired the Reconstruction-era amendments. And, of course, one of the major achievements of the feminist movement was the extension to women of bodily autonomy rights previously fully available only to men.
But despite this impressive historical pedigree, the idea of self-ownership property rights in the body has never played a meaningful role in takings doctrine. Takings jurisprudence has historically been confined to property in land and objects ("real property" and "personal property," in legal terminology), a limitation embodied in William Blackstone's famous definition of property as "that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual." Intellectual property also gets some protection. But, to my knowledge, federal and state courts have never ruled that a restriction on bodily autonomy violates the Takings Clause.
There is a long history of state and federal laws that impose severe restrictions of that type, and would be vulnerable to attack on takings grounds, if state and federal constitutional takings clauses had applied to them. Most obviously, military conscription literally seized men's bodies and forced them to be used for purposes against their will. The same goes (to a lesser extent) for mandatory jury service. Draftees and jurors usually get paid, but generally far less than the "fair market value" Supreme Court precedent requires as "just compensation" for takings.
In the 1916 case of Butler v. Perry, the Supreme Court upheld a Florida law forcing men between the ages of 21 and 45 to do road repair work, six days per year. The Court cited a long history of similar statutes. I think the justices were wrong to reject the Thirteenth Amendment argument against the constitutionality of these horrible forced-labor laws. But it's notable that no one seems to have tried to challenge them on Takings Clause grounds.
There is one major historical example of takings arguments being deployed to attack the seizure of property rights in human bodies. But it's not one likely to appeal to modern sensibilities. Before the enactment of the Thirteenth Amendment, defenders of slavery often argued that abolition should be considered a taking, thereby requiring compensation. On top of that, they also contended that it would be a taking not for a "public use," (as required by the Fifth Amendment), because the new owners of the "property" in question would not be the government, but private individuals (the freed slaves themselves). Abolitionists responded (correctly, in my view) that emancipation was not a taking because the ownership of slaves was not a "natural" property right, and therefore not one protected by the Takings Clause at all. I go over this debate and its implications for modern takings issues in Chapter 2 of my book The Grasping Hand.
For present purposes, the key takeaway is that takings arguments were used here because this was the one major situation in American history where mainstream legal thinkers (at least those supportive of slavery) thought that property in a person was essentially similar to property in objects or animals. For defenders of slavery, owning a slave was just another example of Blackstonian "dominion…. over the external things of the world."
I do not mean to suggest Suk's argument is somehow on the same moral plane as that of the slaveowners. There is an obvious moral chasm between claiming ownership of one's own body, and claiming a right to control the bodies of other people by force. But the paucity of other historical takings arguments of this type underscores the reality that takings doctrine has never been understood to protect bodily autonomy, as opposed to the ownership of "external things."
Suk cites a number of cases recognizing property rights in body parts, such as a spleen removed during an operation. But these weren't takings cases. Moreover, they mostly involved property rights in body parts that have already been removed from the body, thereby becoming external objects (standard "personal" property). The exception is cases involving surrogate parenthood, in which the surrogate carries and gives birth to a fetus on behalf of a couple unable to do so on their own. But, legally speaking, this is best understood as a contract for labor, similar to other situations where people commit to using their bodies to do work for pay (sometimes risking various dangers in the process). Government regulations restricting such labor contracts have never been held to be takings and the same applies to laws banning or restricting surrogacy.
A second doctrinal challenge for Suk's argument is the so-called "police power" exception to takings - the longstanding rule that restrictions on property rights that would otherwise be takings are exempt from the requirement of just compensation if they were adopted for the purpose of protecting public health and safety. For example, during the Covid pandemic, a number of court decisions rejected takings challenges to public health orders shutting down various businesses on the grounds that they fit within the police power exception. The scope of this exception has never been all that clear, and there is a long history of debates over how far it should go. But if you believe that abortion is akin to murder or manslaughter, you are also likely to conclude that abortion restrictions fall within the police power exception. You might even reach that conclusion if you think that the government just has a reasonably plausible claim that restricting abortion is needed to protect innocent life.
I don't myself hold that view (I am pro-choice with respect to the overwhelming majority of abortions), and I think the police power exception should be given a fairly narrow interpretation, more generally. But the issue is not an easy one. As with many other arguments about abortion, much depends on the extent to which you believe fetuses have a right to life comparable to that enjoyed by infants. The plausibility of the pro-life position on this point is one of the key factors that makes abortion a tougher issue than many other bodily autonomy issues.
More can be said about the police power question. For now, I just note this is a difficult issue that Suk doesn't address, but should consider taking up in the future.
Let's assume these doctrinal problems can be overcome, and courts must declare abortion restrictions to be takings. Such a conclusion would have major implications that go far beyond abortion. At the very least, the draft, mandatory jury service, and any other significant government-imposed forced labor would have to be considered takings as well. That includes various proposals for mandatory national service periodically propounded by advocates on both the right and the left.
All such policies involve the appropriation of a person's body to perform various types of work against his or her will. And, in many cases, especially the draft, the severity of the imposition is at least as great as that of an unwanted pregnancy. Draftees are generally required to serve longer than nine months, and - at least in wartime - they may face much greater risks to life and health than most pregnant women.
Other state-imposed constraints on bodily autonomy do not involve physical appropriation of the body, but "merely" restrictions on what you can do with it. If you believe - as many takings experts do - that the Takings Clause protects against "regulatory takings" as well as "physical" ones, then these should also go on the chopping block. Examples include the War on Drugs, bans on the sale of organs, laws banning prostitution, FDA restrictions on what types of medicine people are allowed to take, and much more. As with the draft, some of these regulations impose very severe burdens, at least as great as those of abortion restrictions. Laws banning organ markets literally kill many thousands of people every year. FDA restrictions have created a vast "invisible graveyard" of people who died because regulatory barriers prevented from using medicines that might have saved their lives.
Some of these can potentially be distinguished on the grounds that they "merely" involve bans on the payment of money, rather than on the activity itself. For example, current law allows you to donate an organ for transplant, but not to be paid for it. Ditto for the legal distinction between prostitution and unpaid sexual encounters. But the vast majority of abortions are also performed by people who are paid for the service. I suspect Suk would not accept the idea that her takings argument doesn't apply to laws that "only" ban abortions performed for pay.
Current Supreme Court precedent does offer some protection against regulatory takings, but much less than against physical invasions and appropriations. The more you believe - as I do - that these two types of takings should be treated more equally, the broader the potential impact of expanding the Takings Clause to protect bodily autonomy.
Such protection would not be absolute. The Takings Clause is not a total bar on regulation, but merely a requirement that the state must pay just compensation (and that the seizure of property rights be for a "public use"). But the need to pay compensation might end up deterring many types of regulation, if maintaining them required payment of vast sums to large numbers of people. The War on Drugs probably wouldn't survive for long if government had to pay fair market value compensation to everyone who wants to sell, distribute, or use currently illegal narcotics. Many states might prefer to abolish mandatory jury service if they had to pay market wages to jurors (I would be happy to see such a shift). And the same goes for many other policies.
While I'm not - so far - convinced that our present Constitution requires it, I would be absolutely thrilled to have a constitutional system in which restrictions on bodily autonomy are generally considered takings, subject - perhaps - to a narrow police power exception. Even if that rule were limited to "physical" takings, it would still be a huge improvement over the status quo.
Obviously, people less libertarian than me might not be so happy to embrace these implications of the argument that abortion restrictions are takings. Some might even be horrified at the mere thought of them.
I urge Prof. Suk and other advocates of the argument that abortion restrictions are takings to carefully consider the implications of their reasoning for other issues. If they want to embrace the implications sketched out above, that's great! If not, they should spell out which ones they reject and why. A rationale narrowly confined to the abortion context risks being rejected as arbitrary special pleading; or at least that may happen unless it is accompanied by a compelling theory explaining why the same reasoning doesn't apply to other significant restrictions on bodily autonomy.
While Suk's argument faces tough sledding under US Supreme Court precedent, it could potentially fare better under at least some state constitutions. Virtually every one of the latter has a takings clause of its own. And many of them have different histories (and sometimes even different wording) from the federal one. State courts can and sometimes do interpret their takings clauses as providing more protection for property rights than the federal Supreme Court's interpretation of the Fifth Amendment. Moreover, many state constitutions are much easier to amend than the federal one. Perhaps a state could enact a Self-Ownership Amendment under which significant constraints on bodily autonomy are presumptively considered takings, or even just presumptively banned altogether. State constitutional law matters greatly here, because many constraints on bodily autonomy (including most abortion restrictions) are products of state law, not federal.
Finally, Suk's argument is notable as an example of the broader trend of left-liberals rethinking traditional left-wing hostility to expansive constitutional property rights. Since the Progressive and New Deal eras, the dominant left-wing view has been that property rights deserve little, if any, judicial protection, because they were seen as tools by which the rich exploit the poor and impediments to rational, scientific social planning.
But the Supreme Court's recent unanimous decision in Tyler v. Hennepin County (using the Takings Clause to ban home equity theft) is an example of how property rights protections often actually benefit the disadvantaged, minorities, and those lacking in political influence. And this issue is just the tip of a much larger iceberg, that includes such practices as exclusionary zoning, "blight" and "economic development" takings, asset forfeitures, and more.
These types of issues have gradually begun to shift left-liberal attitudes on property rights issues, albeit liberal constitutional law scholars have been more wary than economists and land-use specialists. I hope the trend will continue and - hopefully - pick up steam.
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It's a silly argument. The entire abortion debate revolves around the question of whether the fetus should be seen simply as an appendage that can be disposed of at will, or as a human life with independent legal standing. And most people are in the middle, believing that the longer the fetus has been developing, the more it should be treated as an independent human life, and the less as part of the woman's body to do with as she chooses. Simply asserting that the the appendage position is correct and thus abortion rules are a Taking would mean siding with the extreme of one side of the debate, which is precisely what the Court did in Roe, which is precisely what the Court decided to overturn last fall. So I don't see how this is helpful. Is there a single person in the US who says, "oh, instead of talking about the women's right to choose, we will take about women's property right in her body, that makes me change my mind on abortion?"
This would also raise the 14th Amd's "right to life" of the fetus and THAT is how abortion could be BANNED nationally.
I wouldn't go down this road because abortion is now completely legal in over half the states.
Is there a single person in the US who says, “oh, instead of talking about the women’s right to choose, we will take about women’s property right in her body, that makes me change my mind on abortion?”
I mean, we have a large number of pro-life conservatives who do say “oh, instead of talking about the women’s right to choose, we will talk about my mistress’s or daughter’s right to choose, and that makes me change my mind on abortion”, so it’s not as unlikely as you think.
Partisan jokes aside, this is a valid point: it’s unreasonable to think you can reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place.
Note: edited for typos. Not sure how I got "rice" from "right".
Was there a part of Roe that the Supreme Court overturned last fall? I thought Dobbs pretty much was it last summer.
If it is accepted that anchor babies are invaders, then it can be argued that the government is violating the Third Amendment by quartering an opposing force of domestic fetuses in uteruses without the consent of the Owner. So the takings thing is not the worst possible argument.
The entire abortion debate revolves around the question of whether the fetus should be seen simply as an appendage that can be disposed of at will,
Theoretically, though I don't think anyone holds that view up until birth.
And most people are in the middle, believing that the longer the fetus has been developing, the more it should be treated as an independent human life, and the less as part of the woman’s body to do with as she chooses.
Agreed.
Simply asserting that the the appendage position is correct and thus abortion rules are a Taking would mean siding with the extreme of one side of the debate, which is precisely what the Court did in Roe
?!?!
The viability test in Roe is literally taking the position "that the longer the fetus has been developing, the more it should be treated as an independent human life,".
Taking would mean siding with the extreme of one side of the debate, which is precisely what the Court did in Roe, which is precisely what the Court decided to overturn last fall.
In allowing a complete abortion bans they did in fact side with the extreme pro-life view.
Is there a single person in the US who says, “oh, instead of talking about the women’s right to choose, we will take about women’s property right in her body, that makes me change my mind on abortion?”
It's arguably a better lens to view the issue through.
"Choice" sounds like an abstract matter of principal, like you're weighing the life of the fetus against the right to choose their hair style.
But pregnancy isn't just a temporary hair style, it's a very drastic change to the body physiology that has side effects for years after (including, in some cases, complicating the possibility of further pregnancies). Even a C-section means months of recovery and having to avoid further pregnancies for a 18-24 months.
For older women forcing them to go through with an unwanted pregnancy may in fact destroy their chance of having a wanted pregnancy.
Not to mention the emotional burden of having something growing inside of your body, and the moral and potential legal liabilities that come with drug and/or alcohol usage.
So yeah, for a court to claim that a complete ban on abortion is constitutional tells me your country has a broken court or a broken constitution.
We say our legal system protects individual rights, don't we? And individuality begins at conception, isn't that the "Science"? To be sure, trade-offs have to be made between the life of the mother and that of the pre-born baby human, but let's not pretend they aren't tradeoffs. And you know as well as I do that there are (too many) people in this debate who refuse to admit that there are tradeoffs that have to be made.
I mean, not unless you think that swapping out "person-hood" for "individuality" is going to fool anyone.
"Science" tells us about things like viability, stages of development, and so-on. Putting moral and legal weight on those is a matter that "science" has no input on.
Not any more than a literate person would capitalize science in that sentence.
Carry on, clinger.
We say our legal system protects individual rights, don’t we?
Sure.
And individuality begins at conception, isn’t that the “Science”?
Ummm, same word, very, very different meaning.
And a very odd usage of "Science" (sounds like you're invoking it like some sacred text).
To be sure, trade-offs have to be made between the life of the mother and that of the pre-born baby human, but let’s not pretend they aren’t tradeoffs.
The start of my comment was literally me agreeing with that premise.
And a very odd usage of “Science” (sounds like you’re invoking it like some sacred text).
I think this usage is a more or less ironic reference to the insistence that "the Science" demands that there should be no dissent, or even questioning, of sacred texts about global warming, or Covid vaccinations, or masks and so on. The tape across the mouth version of the "Science" - which does indeed resemble the invocation of a religious text.
Anyway, let's get on to some pedantry. Strictly speaking "individual" refers to the wholeness of the human organism - ie its existence as an organised separate creature, apart from all other such creatures. To be contrasted with collectives or groups of humans, which can be divided.
But, because of the possibility of monozygotic twins, zygotes and blastocysts are in principle divisible. They are individuals in the sense of being whole, separate, organisms ..... while they are indeed separate. But they are divisible, such that they can be divided into two separate organisms - occasionally. They are not individual in the sense of it being impossible to divide them (without causing instant death.)
So we probably have to wait a few days after conception before we can pronounce the crittur an individual in the sense of indivisibility.
I think this usage is a more or less ironic reference to the insistence that “the Science” demands that there should be no dissent, or even questioning, of sacred texts about global warming, or Covid vaccinations, or masks and so on.
Oh you're allowed to dissent and question, you just need to have evidence and reason on your side and not just be throwing a hissy fit because you don't like the outcome.
Either way, as you kinda point out the invocation of "Science" doesn't even make sense ironically because there's no real definition of individuality in that context. Like is someone supposed to have published a paper and said "on day X Y% of fetuses become an individual!"
Oh you’re allowed to dissent and question, you just need to have evidence and reason on your side and not just be throwing a hissy fit because you don’t like the outcome.
What planet you from, kemosabe ?
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1667011470406860803
This one's good too :
https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1667137552908730370
featurning Tony Fauci claiming HE IS "The Science"
Where have you been for the last 3 years ?
While I don't agree with the extent of misinformation censorship pandemics are a bit of a special case since they are a short duration emergency and trying to get the best current information out is challenging.
Not to mention a certain analogy about broken clocks regarding the sources of the alternative hypothesis.
Either way, not really comparable to the abortion debate except someone wanting to take shots at "Science", which they equate with the political left.
pandemics are a bit of a special case since they are a short duration emergency and trying to get the best current information out is challenging.
I think you mean "panics" are a special case. As it turned out, it was a couple of bad "flu" seasons, cutting a swathe through the old and sick and leaving everybody else more or less untouched. Indeed unlike flu, which often has high kiddie casualties, Covid proved almost entirely harmless to children, making the school closures transparently absurd, even from day one.
And the authorities had no difficulty at all getting their message out. It was dissenters who were silenced, very effectively. Except it now turns out that the authorities were wrong and the dissenters were right on all the main points. Lockdowns and school closures were pointless (and harmful) it was the old and sick who were at risk, not the young and healthy, outside was the place to be, not inside, vaccines were greatly overrated, and proteced neither against infection nor transmission, masks were pointless (and bad for some people) , Sweden was right and pretty much everyone else was wrong, as demonstrated by 2020-23 excess mortality figures (which unlike "Covid deaths" are not irredeemably effed up by counting death-with-Covid as death-from-Covid.) Oh yeah, and it did come from a Chinese lab, which was also obvious from day one.
In short we had a massive, global, government screw-up, positively begging for critics to be heard to point out the lunacy, but instead we had a massive censorship campaign.
In the depths of the military disasters of 1940, the British House of Commons had plenty of dissenters on their hind legs complaining about all the screw ups, and tearing strips out of the government. 80 years later, amidst two bad "flu" seasons, neither the UK, nor pretty much anywhere else could handle a few actual experts saying "hey ! you've been planning for something like this for 25 years, and all the manuals that have been carefully prepared based on the smartest advice, say do the precise opposite of what you're doing ! Why have you suddenly set off in the opposite direction based on mere vapor ?"
except someone wanting to take shots at “Science”, which they equate with the political left.
No, it's shots at "The Science", which is a lefty appeal to authority. It's not an appeal to the scientific method, it's an appeal to the authority of apparatchiks like Fauci. The Science is Lysenko Science, The Science that is based on politics. Dogma wearing a lab coat.
Actual science involves bucketfuls of dissent, argument, and disagreement. The idea of trying to silence people for heresy comes from the side of dogma, not from science.
DB : Taking would mean siding with the extreme of one side of the debate, which is precisely what the Court did in Roe, which is precisely what the Court decided to overturn last fall.
myself : In allowing a complete abortion bans they did in fact side with the extreme pro-life view.
I think you have that telescope up to the wrong eye again, Nelson old chum. By overturning Roe, they left all options for state law on the table. Both complete bans on abortion and unrestricted abortion up to birth, and all points in between. That is, as DB said, the precise opposite of siding with one position or the other.
Ok, what states have unrestricted abortion to up birth?
I known Texas bans after 6 weeks, which is pretty close to a complete ban as many women aren't aware they're pregnant (and that's a very short window to decide).
In fact, it looks like you can't even abort in the case of a fatal fetal abnormality.
I mean, holy crap, make a woman go through 9 months of pregnancy and give birth only to watch the infant die a painful death?!? How the f**k is that constitutional???
On the other side for "unrestricted abortion" do you really think women hit 8 months and say "oh, I changed my mind". And even if such a woman did exist and the laws actually allowed it I doubt she'd find a doctor willing to carry out the procedure.
So yeah, the court is siding with only one side because this elective abortion up till birth side doesn't actually exist.
SCOTUS, in its Dobbs decision, permitted states to regulate abortion as they please - from a complete ban, to a completely lack of restriction. So as far as SCOTUS was concerned, their decision was entirely neutral.
Unsurprisingy, your appeal to actual laws is backwards. No states have enacted complete bans. And at least Colorado has enacted a complete lack of restriction. I don't believe Alaska has a time limit either. But I haven't done a survey so there could be more.
Unsurprisingy, your appeal to actual laws is backwards. No states have enacted complete bans.
Unsurprisingly, I already addressed all of your points in the comment you're replying to.
A 6-week ban is effectively a complete ban for a lot of people.
As for Colorado, as I said I didn't know if States with those laws existed because they don't really matter.
No one is getting an abortion at 8 months without a very good reason, and even if they want one no doctor is going to allow it.
Dobbs claims to be neutral in allowing both extremes, but only the pro-life side actually gets close to achieving its extreme in practice.
If those 8-month abortions were really happening I have a hunch the SCOTUS would have found a way to ban them.
Well, according to the CDC, more than 50% of abortions take place before 6 weeks, 66% before 8 weeks, 93% before 13 weeks, 95% before 15 weeks, and 99% before 20 weeks (viability).
More than half of abortions before six weeks sounds a lot different than a complete ban. In fact, it sounds like most abortions would still continue.
As for the 1% that happen 'late term', the CDC does not publish data on how many take place in the third trimester (24+ weeks) nor does it give a breakdown of 7th month, 8th month, 9th month. However, doing a simple curve fit shows about 0.1% of abortions are 8th month (32nd week) or later, which would put it at 600 in 2020 (most recent CDC data).
"The entire abortion debate revolves around the question of whether the fetus should be seen simply as an appendage that can be disposed of at will,
Theoretically, though I don’t think anyone holds that view up until birth."
A number of states have recently enacted elective abortion right up to the moment of birth, and perhaps an indeterminant period afterwards. (NY, for instance, nominally hasn't legalized infanticide, but they have abolished all the procedures they had in place to prevent it from happening immediately after birth.)
Your example, New York has a health of the mother exception, I wouldn't classify that as "elective abortion right up to the moment of birth".
And, as I stated to Lee Moore, even if such a situation existing on the books I doubt it would ever happen in practice.
Colorado has no time limit, nor any restrction at all, except for parental notification in the case of a minor.
Madison’s essay on property was mercifully short, so I read through it. He says:
“In its larger and juster meaning, [property] embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.”
That last clause was italicized, as if Madison thought it was important. The law of the time (as now) recognized that unborn children could own property, so if property is broadly defined then the child has a right to its bodily autonomy.
Anyway, if originalism means incorporating into the law the essays of various founders (even the distinguished ones), that’s a reflection on originalism.
So we’re back to treating (birthing) people as property? I thought the 13A eliminated that.
Oh that’s right, forced birthing is just like slavery. Or maybe it’s just prostitution. Outcome based argumentation is silly. The ends do not justify an intellectually stupid means.
Are state prohibitions on martial rape takings? Abolition of alienation of affection and criminal conversation torts?
As Professor Volokh has occassionally noted, a husband’s exclusive right to have sex with his wife was enforcible by tort at common law, and earlier cases unambiguously classified this right as a species of property right. This right is far more unambiguously a recognized traditional property right, specifically identified as a property right, than abortion, which after all was at least arguably a crime at common law.
So if the state can’t abolish traditional property rights with regard to domestic relations without just compensation, then it needs to compensate husbands for abolishing their traditional property right to demand that their wives submit to them whenever the husbands feel the urge, and their property right to exclude other men from doing the same.
There was a brief period between Bowers and Casey when advocates of abortion attempted to fit abortion into the Bowers framework, arguing that a woman’s right to initiate a pregnancy was “deeply rooted in this nation’s history and tradition.” In Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, which was between the two, the plaintiffs formulated a “whole cloth of choice” argument in which they argued that removing any traditionally recognized right related to marriage, family, and child-reating would unravel the whole.
The basic problem with that argument was that a man’s right to initiate a pregnancy with his wife (with no spousal consent required) was if anything far more deeply and clearly rooted in this nation’s history and tradition than any abortion right. It’s at least as much a part of the historical and traditional “whole cloth of choice” as a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy ever was.
If adopted, and actionally taken seriously and applied consistently, the position would have made a variety of traditional laws regarding on marriage and family an entrenched part of the constitution, mostly to the detriment of various 19th and 20th century womens’ relief laws limiting husbands rights to control their wives. The right to initiate a pregnancy was just one of the bunch. A limited right to beat ones wife to discipline her was another. Husbands had vetos over contract decisions. Etc. etc. etc.
Under the takings theory being articulated here, men would have to be compensated for the abolition of each and every one of this big bundle of traditional rights they had over their wives.
I mean, you could make the same argument Somin cited against compensating slave-owners: it wasn't a real right to start with.
But yes, "deeply rooted in this nation’s history and tradition" is an argument that rarely works out for anyone other then white male straight Christian property owners.
The right to compensate slave owners was real enough for the DC slave owners to be compensated. That's how slavery ended in DC, they actually had someone calculating the value of each freed slave -- and the interesting aspect of that is that the initially refused to pay the BLACK slave owners, but later agreed to do so. Yes, Black slave owners.
Not only did this actually happen, but it took the 4th paragraph of the 14th Amendment to eliminate any taking clause claims.
And to this day, I believe that the statute of frauds includes "a promise to marry" as contracts that must be reduced to writing.
I'll take your word for it. That said, I wasn't arguing against it in principle, I was just pointing out that
works as well against the idea that it's a "taking" to lose your slave, as it is a "taking" to no longer have the legal right to rape your wife.
Which is to say, even in a lawsuit contemporary to such legal changes, it wouldn't have been a guaranteed win. Now, decades later? It's a loser for sure.
The United States didn’t compensate slave owners because the 14th Amendment said so.
But if the 14th Amendment didn’t say so, Congress could definitely have chosen to do so as a way to maintain an orderly transition and keep the peace. And if Congress was silent, then former slaveholders might possibly have had a takings claim.
I think in general government has some flexibility to transition society out of a bad but entrenched situation by various kinds of smoothing arrangements. Paying compensation might have been a way to do that.
There was a brief period between Bowers and Casey when advocates of abortion attempted to fit abortion into the Bowers framework, arguing that a woman’s right to initiate a pregnancy was “deeply rooted in this nation’s history and tradition.”
I can see how this might be a trial runner for the right to use contraception, taking the right to initiate a pregnancy to include the right to attempt to avoid initiating one. But how would it help with abortion rights ? Has not the horse bolted the stable by then ?
If having creative legal theories regarding election fraud are illegal felonies, why isn't this too?
"Her argument is a fascinating example of a famous left-liberal law professor arguing for a major expansion of Takings Clause protection for property rights."
Dibs on using this theory in gun law cases!
The abortion debate is about when life begins. Anti-abortionists can be just as oblivious to the other side as this article, but I don't recall any which spent so many words dodging the elephant in the room.
I think this is a slight misunderstanding. The logical structure of the abortion argument is :
Team A
A woman, just like anybody else, has an unrestricted right to do whatever she likes with her own body
Team B
An in utero human being is "anybody else" and so has exactly the same rights as the woman
So Team B is not really challenging Team A's assertion. There's nothing much to discuss about it. What is disputed between Team A and Team B is Team B's assertion. Team B asserts it. Team A denies it. As to Team A's assertion, what's to discuss ?
In fact, it is a bit more complicated than that, since there are still things to discuss even if Team B were to win, or partially win, its case.
But we never really get on to that because the main argument is basically "tis-tisn't-tis-tisn't-tis-tisn't" on the Team B assertion. With a variant of "tis" from Team B, with Team A then just ignoring the "tis" and restating the Team A chant.
The Trillion Dollar Coin theory of abortion.
Anything to justify killing babies!
If you have information about someone killing a single baby, the sole sensible course would be to alert proper law enforcement personnel without delay (rather than rant about it on a wingnut blog).
If you have no such information, the sole proper course would be to stop ranting about superstition-addled delusions and leave the reasoned debate to competent adults.
How gentlemanly of you to self-exclude from any such debate, AIDS.
Still, it doesn't otherwise excuse your ignorance, bigotry, and imbecility.
How do you determine the "fair market value" of a fetus so that "just compensation" can be paid?
Sometimes, something is so facially absurd that to state the proposition is to reject it. This is one of those somethings.
Calculating expected lifetime earnings for children of unknown capability and skills is something insurance adjusters already do, so I'm not sure why this would be considered absurd.
And it's not like courts are new to settling on damages in cases of wrongful deaths, even wrongful deaths of infants.
I believe the correct calculation is to find comparable "product" in someplace like Libya and make local cost of living adjustments. I'm sure that's what they mean.
Makes sense to me. What isn’t a taking these days?
Michael Kinsley once said, “The ‘takings’ clause of the Fifth Amendment is for conservatives what the equal protection clause of the 14th is for liberals.” Looks like we have to amend that to whatever majoritarian policies they don’t like, liberals and conservatives will find a constitutional argument to invalidate them.
Hey, here's a new theory for an academic to write about. A baby is, potentially, a future draftee into the armed forces, so is in effect a soldier. And the mother (sorry, pregnant person) is being forced to house said baby for up to 9 months!
A clear violation of the Third Amendment:
"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."
You heard it here first. No need to give me attribution. Just a royalty, paid for in unmarked $ 100 bills will suffice.
I like the way you think. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Is that any crazier than Krychek's argument that were a fetus to be declared a person who possessed the right to life then it would be guilty of trespass against the person?
Wow, that argument really struck a nerve with you, didn't it? Months (if not years; I've lost track) later, I think you're the only one who still obsesses about it. And the idea that the fetus is a baby is a fairly silly argument on its own.
But it's not a bad argument if you look at the general principle of what, exactly, constitutes a trespass. There is caselaw holding that it was a trespass against the person for an incompetent surgeon to leave an instrument inside the patient. I once successfully argued to a trial court that my mentally competent client, who did not wish to be kept alive by the machines that the hospital refused to unhook him from, was the victim of a trespass to the person (and also battery). Basically, if I'm taking up what is legally your personal space, it's a trespass. So other than the fact that it rubs you the wrong way, give me the theory for why it's a bad argument.
If you think it's a silly argument, then you don't understand it.
I understand it and it's silly.
Then you don't understand it.
Such eagerness to destroy unique human beings.
Such worship and adoration of fetuses.
Resembles Bob from Ohio when he perceives a chance to impose the death penalty on an innocent black man!
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302
Have you mentioned your view to the Mayo Clinic ? These barely educated snake oil salesmen refer to a "baby" over 30 times in this little 1st trimester summary - before the crittur has even made it to "fetus" !
Have you ever met a pregnant woman, btw ?
"I'm just going to see the doctor to see how my fetus is doing" said no pregnant woman ever.
Basically, if I’m taking up what is legally your personal space, it’s a trespass. So other than the fact that it rubs you the wrong way, give me the theory for why it’s a bad argument.
Because it's not a trespass if you're there with my consent, express or implied.
So it could only work in the case of rape, and even then the argument is problematic.
IANAL but my limited understanding is that generally a trespass requires intent . Being dumped there by someone else isn't trespass.
To take his silliness seriously when exactly did the fetus consent to being there? Should every pregnant woman be jailed for kidnapping? There is an extent you can take the personhood rights to and to dismiss that leads direct to silliness on both sides of his expansion of the argument.
Even assuming the fetus had consent at one time, as soon as it no longer does, it's a trespass. That you invite me into your house doesn't mean it's not a trespass if you ask me to leave and I refuse. Once the consent ends, so does the right to be there.
A fetus is unlikely to understand your request that he or she leave, will not therefire "refuse" and still lacks "intent". Moreover , even if there were intent and even if the fetus did understand your demand that it leave, and even if it refused to do so, "necessity" is a sufficient defense.
If the only way to leave a property is to jump out of a 40th storey window to your death, you are not obliged to jump, however urgently the property owner urges you to do so. And if the property owner were to take matters into his own hands and throw you out of the window, the courts would not look kindly upon him.
Trespass is a feeble analogy, feebler even than takings.
Ok, I'll bite. How is the amount of compensation due to be calculated? Under your theory, all abortion can be banned, with the payment to the Mom of the value of the taking, i.e., just compensation. I guess we are to have jury trials for all women who must give birth???
Are Abortion Bans Takings?
Good question!No. Next question?
Interesting idea, but it's a non-starter.
As I pointed out on one of your "organ markets are cool!" posts, the fundamental problem is that however you're trying to frame it, what you're really talking about is a radical right to bodily autonomy, and that's an idea that won't fly in modern America.
Which is to say, you have a lot of work to do changing the culture first. Because if you don't do that, then no matter how sound the legal theory is, the fact that it leads to so many conclusions that would be anathema to so many Americans means it's not happening.
I do think you might have luck with the legal-left on this issue. But with the current composition of the SCOTUS (and likely composition for the next few decades†) that is neither sufficient or necessary to win at the highest court. You've gotta win over the legal-right first, and I don't think you grok just how hostile conservatives are to bodily autonomy.
________
†Seriously, the math here is pretty favorable to conservatives. The three older conservative justices just need to hold out till the next Republican admin, be it in 2025 or 2029. They won't have to wait until 2033 unless American politics goes very weird. It's possible two of the conservative justices could die during Biden's presidency, but the odds are in conservative's favor.
Would also point out that Professor Somin’s assertion that “natural law” unambiguously supports a right to abortion, in the face of numerous other people who just as vigorously assert that “natural law” unambiguously condemns abortion, is perhaps a better example than any I could come up with myself about just how problematic “natural law” is as the basis for overriding the will of a democratically elected legislature in the absent of any direct constitutional warrant.
“Natural law” sure sounds nice. Who could argue with what’s natural? But when what people claim “natural law” shows. keeps turning out to be whatever they wanted anyway, “natural law” isn’t really doing any work. It’s just serving as a decorative ornament.
Evolution is immoral. Numerous things we would be horrified at humans doing, slavery, rape, cannibalism, lots of things, are done quite regularly by other species. Nature is full of such things. Is there really any basis for claiming they aren’t “natural?”
Theistic philosophies got around that by claiming humans are or possess a different substance, a different nature, from other beings including animals, so what’s natural for them isn’t necessarily what’s natural for humans. But Professor Somin has eschewed going that route.
And after all the humans-are-a-different-substance position tends to be associated with views directly opposed to property-rights arguments. It tends to support the view that a human being, any human being, slave, fetus, or whatever, “is not a mere chattel. He bears the impress of his Maker, and is amenable to the laws of God and man; he is destined for an endless existence.”
Professor Somin’s efforts to ground his philosophy in 18th century rationalism can be made to work. Or appear to work, only by ignoring most of the evidence of 19th and 20th century empiricism. And worse than that. It can be made to work only by being very selective about the arguments of 18th century rationalism.
Literally arguing that people are property. And abortion advocates wonder why so many of us draw parallels between the barbaric institutions of slavery and abortion.
Eh, only people unfamiliar with anti-choice rhetoric (for decades) wonder that.
Anyone else knows that y'all will argue anything and everything (including contradictory things) that you think will work. Actual conviction is irrelevant and often inconvenient (as it may obligate you to continue to defend a losing argument).
Whoops, this was supposed to be in response to tkamenick.
anti-choice rhetoric
*snort*
Truly woke people don’t say “choice” anymore:
““Choice” assumes that everyone can get an abortion, and someone just has to choose whether or not they want one. Not everyone can get an abortion when they want one. Black feminists and feminists of color” etc. etc.
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocacy-fund-massachusetts-inc/blog/whats-wrong-with-choice-why-we-need-to-go-beyond-choice-language-when-were-talking-about-abortion
Also, the AP doesn't use the term any more.
https://twitter.com/APStylebook/status/1521486631231963140
Problem with the use of Locke here is that if you took him seriously then copyright/patents would also clearly be takings (you copy something by mixing your labor with your property and the gov purports to be able to seize the copied items/order them destroyed and for you to pay a fine). This argument would prove the 5th repeals the copyright/patent clause.
1. Sticking with the property theme, it seems to me that Prof Suk's theory runs up against a number of problems from legal principles as they apply to property, in particular those bits of the law that do not permit you to reclaim exclusive use of your property immediately, even if you'd like to, and do not entitle you to any compensation for the delay.
2.Most obviously - if you rent out your property to another person, you don't generally have the right to take it back for your own exclusive use, unless special circumstances apply - eg the renter fails to pay, or trashes the premises, or whatever.
3. Of course, in the case of womb rental, there is no written contract, and no rent paid. So do we have an out for "no consideration" ? Well, perhaps the potential abortee has given no consideration for the rental, but the sperm provider certainly has. This would seem to be a sort of storage contract, where the mother and father have jointly created an item and stored it on the mother's premises, with her permission (except in the case of rape.) So under ordinary legal principles, if she then smashed up the item and threw it out, because she wanted to use the storeroom for other purposes, she'd be liable to compensate the father.
4. Moreover, if squatters occupy your property, without your consent, you do have the right to evict them. But generally not by shooting them and dragging out the bodies. (Though, IMHO, that is something of a weakness in the law.) If the government threatens you with prison time if you try to speed up the eviction by using pistols, you're not going to succeed with a Takings claim for that extra 3 months that your property was occupied.
5. Also, if you simply allowed someone to store their valuable Matisse in your storeroom, with no consideration paid at all, I still don't think you'd escape some kind of damages suit if you just burnt it and chucked it out, when you got fed up with it. You'd be expected to give the storer some reasonable notice to remove it. And if the circumstances were that removing it before some set time was likely to damage it, and you knew that when you gave permission for the storage, you'd probably have to suck up the irritating delay before it was removed.
6. Then there's easements and rights of way - and any other suchlike common law rights of usage of another's property established by custom. Well, there isn't much of a longer standing customary usage of "property" than the use of its mother's uterus, by a young placental mammal. Like about 60 million years.
7. Last but not least, I'll offer the traditional boat analogy. You are far out to sea in your fishing boat, fishing away, when you come across a drowning man in the water. You are not - let it be supposed - legally required to fish him out and save him. But if you choose to do so, there he sits in your boat. Occupying a space in your property. But if the government's laws say - as I'm pretty sure they do - that if you tire of this shipwrecked mariner, you're not allowed to bop him on the head with a marlinspike and tip him back into the sea. And so if, coerced by this legal threat, you keep him on board till you reach land, your claim that there's been a Taking will not get far.
As soon as the government can pay to make us do something, the only question is, "How much?"
Like the daycare that started charging fees for late pickup — instantly, it was just a cost for being late.
Does killing an innocent life have any discomforts to the 'common good' is what you mean. How stupid. True sophistry