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Andrew Hyman Responds on Migration and Invasion
I have posted his response to my previous post, along with a rejoinder.
In my last post on this subject I critiqued the argument that illegal immigration qualifies as "invasion" under relevant provisions of the Constitution and thereby empowers federal and state governments to use military force to prevent it. Andrew Hyman, one of the advocates of this position whom I criticized, has sent me the following response, which I am posting at his request. Hyman's response is in the block quote. My rejoinder follows, and is in regular text:
A Reply to Professor Somin about Illegal Immigration and "Invasion"
Professor Ilya Somin recently wrote a blog post here titled "Immigration is not 'Invasion'" responding to an earlier blog post of mine at the Originalism Blog. Among other things, Professor Somin writes, "If you want to know what Madison thought about the claim that immigration counts as 'invasion,' look to the Report of 1800 where he actually discusses that issue." The repeated attribution of that very broad claim to me is incorrect, I have not said that immigration counts as invasion, which is also alleged in the title of Professor Somin's blog post. I appreciate the opportunity to explain why I never made that claim, and to also briefly address here the 1800 report by James Madison. For now, I will skip other points in Professor Somin's blog post with which I may disagree.
Lawful immigration absolutely does not count as invasion, I never said or implied otherwise, and Madison was discussing people who had immigrated lawfully. I have discussed the current situation on the ground at the U.S. southern border, where (as I wrote) "many of the undocumented immigrants are simply seeking better lives for themselves and their loved ones," but a significant minority of the undocumented immigrants are surely agents of governments with which the U.S. has tense relations, or would-be terrorists, or moles, or convicted criminals set free from prison on condition that they will leave their home countries, or fentanyl distributors, human traffickers, et cetera. People who immigrate to the United States lawfully, after proper screening, are not invaders by any stretch of the imagination. My own ancestors were immigrants, and I strongly support legal immigration, as well as generous foreign aid to uplift countries so their people will be happy if they decide to stay where they are.
As to Madison's report of 1800, it is not the best evidence of the 1789 Constitution's original meaning, given its post-ratification date in the middle of a raging political controversy more than a decade after the Constitution came into being. However, I agree with Professor Somin that the 1800 report can still be useful for describing arguments and doctrines that may have had pre-ratification validity. Using the 1800 report to interpret the 1789 Constitution becomes even harder because our present controversy is very different from the controversy of 1800 which involved (per Madison) "banishment of an alien from a country into which he has been invited." Illegal immigrants and/or undocumented aliens are definitely not invited to the United States, and Madison apparently did not address situations where aliens are prohibited to enter the U.S. in the first place.
Nor have I spotted in the 1800 report other pertinent issues such as whether the war power can be applied against non-state-actors (it can), and whether non-violent acts are sometimes acts of war (they are). Admittedly, Madison did assert in his 1800 report that, "Alien enemies are under the law of nations, and liable to be punished for offences against it. Alien friends, except in the single case of public ministers, are under the municipal law, and must be tried and punished according to that law only." Madison thus supported congressional power to use the war power (and also the Define and Punish Clause) against alien enemies, but not against alien friends. But who are alien friends, and who are not?
Madison's report of 1800 repeatedly referred to alien friends as members of nations in "peace and amity with the United States," so an individual is not necessarily an "alien friend" even if his home country is at peace (but not amity) with the United States. There were also other criteria in the English common law for an individual from one country to be in "amity" with another country; an especially cruel example is Lord Coke's statement that, "All infidels are in law perpetui inimici" (meaning that all Muslims are perpetually out of amity regardless of country of origin). So, I doubt Madison would have deemed a person who has entered the United States unlawfully to be an "alien friend" just because his home country is in both peace and amity with the United States. It does not strike me as particularly amicable to trespass into another country, but Madison's report of 1800 did not address that issue. It instead strikes me as quite "ambitious," which is the word Madison used in 1788 when discussing invasions in Federalist 43.
A chaotic or open border makes it impossible to screen out people who really do very urgently need to be screened out. The people who are genuinely seeking freedom and opportunity ought to apply lawfully, or else find homes in another country along their journey, instead of cutting ahead of would-be lawful immigrants to the United States. Preferably, there will be minimal resort to war powers for expelling freedom-seekers, but (as I wrote), "It is unfortunate that the civil power of the states has been so constricted by judicial error that we have to discuss the military power now as well, and the civil power alone might be sufficient were it not for cases like Arizona v. United States." If the framers had wanted to qualify the word "invasion" in the Constitution, then they probably would have used a qualifier, but under any interpretation unarmed immigrants invited by Congress are not invaders. In any event, Madison was arguing in 1800 to constrain both civil and military power of the federal government, and to the extent he was correct about constraining federal civil power, that could only enhance state civil power to address the same subject, per the Tenth Amendment.
I am grateful to Mr. Hyman for his thoughtful response. But I remain unpersuaded. To start with a relatively simple point, I did in fact focus on illegal migration in my earlier post. The very first sentence indicates as much, noting that I am responding to claims that "illegal migration across the southern border [qualifies] as an 'invasion.'" Much of the rest of the post also addresses that issue.
James Madison's Report of 1800 is in fact highly relevant to that very issue, despite Hyman's suggestion to the contrary. It is not true that the controversy over the Alien Acts of 1798 (which Madison argued were unconstitutional) was limited to the expulsion of foreigners who have previously entered the US legally.
Section 2 of the Alien Friends Act also gave the president the power to bar reentry by any foreigner expelled under Section 1, and even to impose a prison term as punishment for violations. Moreover, the expulsion power under Section 1 is not limited to people who had been living or working in the United States, but could be used to bar "all such aliens as he shall judge dangerous to the peace and safety of the United States," including those who had just arrived at a port or border area. In sum, therefore, the Alien Act effectively gave the president the power to create a class of aliens who are barred from entering the US so long as the Act remained in force. Madison and others consistently argued that both Section 1 and Section 2 were unconstitutional, and that the "invasion" provision of the Guarantee Clause does not authorize them. If the Guarantee Clause could be used to bar any migrants whose entry was illegal, it could also authorize the Alien Friends Act.
Hyman also quotes Madison to the effect that his argument only applies to aliens from countries at "peace and amity with the United States," and claims that some nations at peace with the US might not be in "amity" with it. I am skeptical that "amity" actually adds anything. "Peace and amity" was just a stock legal phrase of the time. But even if "amity" does have some separate additional meaning for Madison, that term cannot be used to justify barring any significant number of migrants under the "invasion" provision of the Constitution either then or now.
Much of the focus of the debate over the Alien Acts was on immigrants from France and territories controlled by that nation. At the time, France was even waging a kind of undeclared "quasi-war" with the US, including clashes between French and US ships in the Carribbean. Yet Madison and other opponents of the acts still argued that the Alien Acts could not be constitutionally used to expel or bar citizens of France, because France and the US were not at war. If there was sufficient "amity" between France and the US to prevent the use of the "invasion" provision as a justification for barring migration, then such amity is even more clearly present today between the US, Mexico, and virtually all other nations from which migrants crossing the southern border hail.
Hyman is right to note that the Report of 1800 doesn't comprehensively address such issues as "whether the war power can be applied against non-state-actors (it can), and whether non-violent acts are sometimes acts of war." But it does address the particular question in dispute here: whether migration, as such, can be an act of war that qualifes as an "invasion." It cannot.
it is also true that the Report of 1800 came a decade after the ratification of the Constitution. Had it come earlier, it would have been even more powerful evidence of original meaning. But it is nonetheless by far the most relevant analysis by a leading Framer of the Constitution of the question of whether migration can qualify as "invasion."
Finally, Hyman raises a number of policy issues tangential to the constitutional point. I will not try to go over them in detail here. But I will refer interested readers to previous writings, where I point out that most of the disorder at the southern border is in fact the product of policies that make legal migration difficult or impossible for most would-be migrants. We can largely fix the problem by making legal migration simple and easy. Among other things, that would enable many would-be migrants to avoid the southern land border entirely, and instead come by ship or plane.
In addition, the violent crime rate of migrants (including undocumented migrants) is actually lower than that by native-born Americans. It is simply not true that "a significant minority of the undocumented immigrants are surely agents of governments with which the U.S. has tense relations, or would-be terrorists, or moles, or convicted criminals set free from prison on condition that they will leave their home countries." Unless, of course, the word "significant" applies even to very small numbers of dangerous people among a much larger group. If that kind of "significant" number is enough to qualify as "invasion," then we have been in a state of perpetual invasion through virtually the entire time the US has had significant immigration restrictions.
To the extent that there is a danger at the southern border, it is not one that can be properly addressed by invoking the "invasion" provisions of the Constitution. Ordinary law enforcement powers must suffice.
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a significant minority of the undocumented immigrants are surely agents of governments with which the U.S. has tense relations, or would-be terrorists, or moles, or convicted criminals set free from prison on condition that they will leave their home countries, or fentanyl distributors, human traffickers, et cetera.
It may be polite to call Hyman's response "thoughtful," as Ilya does, but making that assertion with no evidence whatsoever is not what a thoughtful person does.
Demanding evidence of the obviously true is bad-faith posing as argument. The largest of the named groups is no doubt fentanyl traffickers, and the use of "or" makes counting up the others superfluous.
E.G., "Nearly half of the fentanyl, a potent synthetic opioid, seized by Customs and Border Patrol agents since 2020 has been captured near San Diego. "
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/05/11/fentanyl-trafficking-tests-americas-foreign-policy
A large proportion of immigrants are from friendly countries- Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador- and the vast, vast, vast majority of them are not smuggling drugs.
Most pay money to drug cartels who control the coyotes and migration routes.
"friendly countries"
Friends don't encourage home invasions.
Mexico's problem with drug cartels is entirely because of our War on [some] Drugs.
The real problem is you need Congress to amend both the laws on asylum and immigration. Congress has no interest in doing either let alone both.
INVADE MEXICO!
How do we know?
Because Dilan says so.
Throwing stones at actual practitioners again, I see.
Did Dilan Esper go to the AutoZone and lecture you on how to properly stock shelves, too?
Effeminate little troll.
Why in the world would we presume an entertainment attorney knows squat about the composition of South American immigrants?
LoB, it’s not just Dilan Esper, there are many other practitioners at whom he regularly throws effeminate one-sentence ‘insults’. The guy has nothing to add to the discussion of legal issues on this blog. He wants to turn this into The Jerry Springer VC. No thanks, and I’m guessing you wouldn’t want that either.
Being from what you choose to call "friendly countries" does not make Invaders into "friendly aliens", as Madison would have it. I haven't bothered reading Somin's open borders trash, but I did read Hyman: "...Madison was discussing people who had immigrated lawfully."
Nearly half of the fentanyl, a potent synthetic opioid, seized by Customs and Border Patrol agents since 2020 has been captured near San Diego.
Arguing that this supports Hyman's claim is idiocy. Really moronic.
.... a significant minority of the undocumented immigrants are[various things] or fentanyl distributors.... is the claim at issue, and the amount of fentanyl seized at the border ABSOLUTELY and OBVIOUSLY supports Hyman's claim. I could have added links that provide estimates of how much of the illegal fentanyl market is supplied by smuggling, but only complete cretins like you pretend to ignorance as complete as that you have decided to champion, and I am not motivated to pretend that you are engaged in good faith argument.
Claim: "Most elderly people die of headaches, or hangnails, or acne, or toothaches, or heart disease."
Gandydancer: "It's not a lie because lots of people do die of heart disease, and it says 'or'!"
And granting that it’s true, which who knows, what does “significant minority” even mean? 2%? 5%? 20?
As it has been from the dawn of time, the huge majority - virtually all of them - are economic migrants. Really not eligible for amnesty, but no nefarious motive either. Wish we could actually discuss the situation without political hyperbole distracting everyone.
I'm not sure I'd agree that "I'm going to take this thing I'm not legally entitled to." doesn't count, itself, as a "nefarious motive", without any additional criminal intent.
Wanting to work does not equal to nefarious intent.
What are they taking that doesn’t belong to them? What are they taking, period?
They're taking up space that is not theirs, and, as it actually works out, sucking at the public teat.
Presence in the country, obviously.
Who did they take presence in the country away from? Your argument doesn’t make sense.
For starters, they will have children on U.S. soil, at our expense, and they will not waive the automatic citizenship for those children (even if they were legally allowed to do so). So they're basically stealing citizenship from us, as have more citizens dilutes the power of existing ones.
Second, it's well settled that whatever economic benefits they provide to us is far overshadowed by the costs they impose on our school, health care, and criminal justice systems. Even if most are not criminals, at $60k/year a pop (at the minimum), it doesn't take a lot of violent criminals being incarcerated to outweigh Pablo's tomato picking.
They can work in their own country. America is not a giant jobs program. What they take that is not theirs is welfare, from American taxpayers and, through the national debt, from America's grandchildren.
You didn't actually respond about what's 'not theirs.'
We need people at the moment. For real jobs, not make-work.
Illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare.
What are they "taking," Brett?
An intent to steal the patrimony of American citizens, which includes a country not crowded by undesirable foreigners, is absolutely a nefarious motive.
I've worked with many people who immigrated to this country and find them much more appreciative of opportunity and liberty than many of my fellow native-born. If the country is overcrowded with undesirables, it is those who have an undeserved sense of entitlement.
bernard,
Are you seriously this ignorant about the fentanyl situation? Or the trafficking, the border crossing by criminals, etc?
When you have no idea what you're talking about, just keeping your mouth shut is always an option.
Also fyi,
Agents stopped 16 people on the FBI’s terror watch list who crossed illegally at the southern border in February. It brings the total number of encounters for fiscal year 2023 to 69, which is on a pace to exceed the 98 encounters in the prior fiscal year.
There were only eight terror watch-list arrests between ports of entry between fiscal years 2017 and 2020, followed by 15 encounters in 2021.
M.L.,
Are you innumerate? That lots of fentanyl comes across the border by no means suggests that "a significant minority of the undocumented immigrants are surely agents of governments with which the U.S. has tense relations, or would-be terrorists, or moles, or convicted criminals set free from prison on condition that they will leave their home countries, or fentanyl distributors, human traffickers, et cetera."
Not even close. Study logic. If you are capable of it.
Well, sixteen people out of the masses that are trying to cross is certainly a minority. I guess everyone can decide on their own whether it’s a “significant” one.
You've already declared that only the innumerate could possibly think that it was significant, so don't pretend to a tolerance for differing viewpoints that in fact you don't have.
Sounds like Biden's doing a much better job securing the border than Trump did.
Right. I find Hyman's "response" to be evasive and equivocal. "I never said that legal immigration constitutes an invasion," he says, and then goes on to insinuate that freedom-seekers just looking to make better lives for themselves can and should be met with military force.
They should. But the viewpoints repeated and then imagined in your second sentence in no way contradict each other. Invaders illegally "just looking to make better lives for themselves" have nothing to do with "legal immigration". I "find" what you claim to "find" patently dishonest.
In your attempt to be sarcastic and clever, Gandy, you've confused yourself. Focus on keeping things simple, I think.
I never said Hyman "contradicted" himself. I said he was being evasive and equivocal. He is being evasive and equivocal because he intuits and understands that his intended audience is likely to be put off by a statement like, "I think freedom-seeking but illegal immigrants should be treated as invaders and met with military force on American soil." So he puffs up his indignation over "legal immigration," waves his hands at putative terrorists and ne'er-do-wells seeking to infiltrate an "open" border, and he anticipates that people will draw the desired conclusion by tut-tutting about the Tenth Amendment.
Hence, "evasive" and "equivocal." He's trying to make a point without being forced to own the consequences of making it outright. It's intellectually dishonest.
Now, you're an idiot, a troll, and an abhorrent person, so none of that really registers. It's not surprising that you missed the point of my criticism and have really no grasp of what it could even mean; you're perfectly happy to say that the military should mow down migrants attempting to enter illegally at the border, no questioning or due process necessary. But my criticism isn't directed at that position. I am more criticizing Hyman's cowardice and dishonesty.
Why do open-borders fanatics insist that "wanting a better life" absolves one of all responsibility for bad actions? Since humans are by nature selfish creatures, everything anyone does in life is presumably to better their own life. The problem is that it usually comes at the cost of someone else, meaning a worse life for that person.
Why do racists insist that crossing an imaginary line is a "bad action"?
Our border is as imaginary as a speed limit, or any other law you could be jailed for breaking.
That's the sentence I tripped over too. Holy unsupported statement Batman!
Learn to use the fucking "[Show more]" capability to limit the tedious length of time it takes to scroll past your cretinous postings in favor of open borders.
Are you late for a Klan meeting?
Gandydancer has made a lot of comments for someone who just wanted to scroll past the post.
After you've read the post, it's a pain in the ass to have to scroll past it each time you want to comment.
You could use Recent Volokh Posts at the right to open any recent post in a separate tab, then Ctrl-End, then Show Comments.
I guess there may be differences if you're not using a typical web browser.
I suppose that's great, if you never want to know anything about an article other than the headline, and never want to look at an article other than the most recent few.
I'm not sure why you think defending the lack of use of the "Show More" feature is a good idea. Perhaps you can explain why you think posting 2000 words in the main page without any abbreviation is a good idea?
I am not defending the failure to use "Show More"; just complaining about it but also commenting repeatedly seems a bit inconsistent.
I would prefer that "Show More" were Used More; there are occasionally posts I have no interest in from the title. But I mostly would scroll down to see if there are other new posts, and only rarely seek out a post that's not one of the ten most recent without having bookmarked it. But perhaps it's different if you don't check this blog very often. It also doesn't seem that the complaints in the comments have had any effect.
Again, I haven't commented on anything Somin wrote, which I have no interest in. I did read the Hyman quote out of a mild interest in what Madison might have said and what Hyman might have to say about it, but that's it. And access to it didn't require that Somin clog the main thread with his crap.
As you note, previous rebukes of Somin for his bad behavior have had no effect. No doubt I will continue to get more vituperative about that.
"Gandydancer has made a lot of comments for someone who just wanted to scroll past the post."
None of my comments have been anything about anything Somin wrote, which I have not bothered to read.
No, he's just looking for that Josh juice he comes here for.
"...he’s just looking for that Josh juice he comes here for."
I could check whether that is directed at me, but can't be bothered, Suffice it to say that I consider Blackman a cheap careerist sellout for his willingness to sign on to DEI in a pathetic attempt to get the ABA Journal to continue to platform him.
You can't help yourself, huh? You want to feign indifference to what I might "sub-tweet" about you, but you also can't just let my mockery go unanswered!
Also, if you think Josh has "embraced" DEI, by writing a piece for the ABA wherein he lays out a way to defang and de-professionalize DEI in law schools, then you are looney.
No disagreement, however, that Josh is a cheap careerist sellout. It's just strange to me that the guy who treats DEI as synonymous with "racial preferences" fails your purity test.
Learn how to use the scroll wheel on your mouse, why don't you.
The idea that the constitution creates automatic obligations to go war or accept or reject would-be immigrants based on legal categories defined under common law or whatnot is absurd nonsense. Congress has plenary power to create categories of nations and immigrants desired and undesired. Both sides of this “argument” are ridiculous.
What next, discern in a supposed original meaning of the constitution which nations it is our destiny to be allied with and which are forever our enemies? Look to judges to decide what to do on these things? Nonsense.
Hyman makes that claim when?
Congress HAS declared illegal immigration, well, to be illegal. The President (and the Courts) refuse to follow the law. What to do??
Do you go off on these rants about jaywalking laws?
Well, obviously the President has a constitutional obligation to gun down anyone who is jaywalking, and since he seems to be unwilling to do that GoPH will have no alternative but to simply run them down with his car instead.
I’ve said in past comments on Somin posts that the Constitution in fact empowers Congress and the President to regard immigration as an invasion and use military force against it if they wish to.
What it does not do is REQUIRE them to do so. States cannot go to judges asking them to enforce the Guarantee Clause to compel the President to act to restrict immigration.
This country had largely open immigration for its first century. Unrestricted immigration is simply not inherently an invasion. It’s a policy choice. How to characterize immigration is up to Congress and the President. The President could use force to restrain immigration. But the courts have no power to force him to do so.
This country has a long history of compromising over thorny political debates by putting laws on the books and then not enforcing them. Federal marijuana prohibition is a current example. Anti-abortion laws surviving on the federal books are another. There have been many, many in the past. That too is a policy choice. Proponents of unenforced laws have been grumbling and complaining for centuries. This is no different. It is simply not for the courts to intervene in these matters.
"What it does not do is REQUIRE them to do so. States cannot go to judges asking them to enforce the Guarantee Clause to compel the President to act to restrict immigration. "
More accurately, the Constitution DOES require them to do so, but the courts aren't willing to enforce the Guarantee Clause.
But even that is more leverage over immigration policy than Somin is willing to admit his foes have.
It doesn’t.
A state can no more use the Guarantee Clause to force the Federal Government to use force against illegal immigrants than it can use it to force the Federal Government to use military force against a country that broke a treaty and stiffed it. The Guarantee Clause doesn’t cover it. It just doesn’t matter whether the stiffing is legally casus bella under the common law or some such thing. Legal norms interpreted by judges do not determine whether or not this country goes to war. Same here.
The clause in question facially mandates that the federal government defend states against invasions. This is a different issue from whether or not the courts will admit a state has standing to go to court when the federal government refuses to anyway.
It’s not an invasion.
That's what we're actually arguing about, whether the people coming in contrary to the law have to be wearing uniforms for it to be an invasion.
You seem to think just denying it settles the argument in your favor.
It's funny how everyone wants the Executive or the Judicial to do things that Congress has the legitimate authority to do, but simply lacks the requisite political will.
Congress not only has the legitimate authority to enact immigration laws, it has actually done so.
Now, I'll freely grant that Congress is being two faced here; They have enacted the laws, but deliberately under-fund enforcement so as to make sure it's not completely successful.
STILL, the law did not materially change when Biden took office, but illegal immigration went up by a factor of five in just a couple of months. That's pretty unambiguously Biden choosing not to as effectively enforce those laws as Trump was able to.
You are very bad at assuming causation.
Just the worst.
You are very, VERY bad about assuming things just happen by coincidence when administrations change, just because you want to deny that they're being done deliberately.
You don't get a five fold step change in some metric when a new administration takes office by accident. You get it because they changed policy. You just look stupid claiming otherwise.
This blog, and others, relies VERY heavily on that one Texas study to prove that the violent crime rate for illegal immigrants is lower than native born Americans. But there’s a problem with that, aside from the fact that it’s a snapshot in time from only one State. That study can’t fully take into account the difference in the time spent in the US. Illegal immigrants have, on average, been in the US far less time than native born, and so have had less time to rack up a criminal record here. The better comparison would be to compare their crimes both before and after they migrated here. And another problem – I think you can agree that most violent crimes are within communities, right? So if you belong to a community living here illegally, and want to avoid official attention, you are less likely to report violent crimes against yourself.
Another side issue is that the first generation children of immigrants are often radical than parents. We have seen many examples of this, like the 2016 Orlando Pulse nightclub massacre. It’s especially a problem in Europe.
How is that not true? Explain. Or define what you think is “significant”? Because we have seen significant violent crimes and terrorist actions by recent immigrants and their families. The biggest example of course would be the Mariel boatlift from Cuba in 1980, where Castro emptied his prisons and as a result, the crime rate in Florida skyrocketed. But if you want more recent examples, several of the 9/11 hijackers overstayed their visas. The Tsarnaev brothers, of the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing, were in the US because of their family’s bogus asylum claim (we know it’s bogus, because they went back to their home country to avoid a shoplifting charge here). And that’s just a few off the top of my head. Truth is, most common crimes don’t make the headlines – but identify theft, drug trafficking, and human trafficking are all intimately intertwined with illegal immigration.
I think we can assume that few American citizens are identified as illegal immigrants in TX's criminal records, while many illegal immigrants are not identified as such, so there's that.
Also, the American citizen rate of criminality is affected by criminally inclined demographics, most notably ghetto blacks. Why can't we aspire to do better?
I was about to make this point. The fact that illegal mestizo Hispanics have a lower crime rate than American born blacks is not something to write home about.
If you take the average body size growth of illegal immigrants once they immigrate to america. Its significantly lower than the average body size growth of a native born american. Therefore illegal immigrants and their descendants are born with bodies that grow very little./Somin Logic.
These are policy arguments why restricting immigration would be a good idea. They are not legal arguments why restricting immigration is required.
This is an argument about whether the word "invasion" is an accurate description of what is going on.
Given the wide scope of the meaning of the word “invasion,” it’s not useful for people interested in a meaningful conversation on immigration. Sports fans can “invade” a stadium for a sporting event, for example, or detailed questions can “invade” someone’s privacy. For the purpose of governments and borders, “invade” is more usefully used to describe armies and official acts of governments, like Russia invading the Ukraine. Since one can use the word “invade” in any of these senses when referring to immigrants and listeners can take the word in any of these other senses, it’s more than possible some people are hearing “invade” to mean “a planned, armed incursion by a foreign government” and jump to the conclusion that armed resistance is the correct solution.
If you want an accurate description of “what is going on” on our Southern border, first start with using language that is more precise in order to avoid misunderstanding.
You know that both halves of that are a myth, right?
Somin agrees that ten years after ratification might make this a questionable source, but it agrees with his views and he accepts its authority.
I guess that's how originalism goes.
Was the US better when immigration was tightly restricted between 1924-1965 or worse?
Was the US better when Lost Cause and Jim Crow revanchism was tightly enforced across a major swath of the nation between 1924-1965 or worse?
Lost Cause mythology was never "enforced" anywhere.
No.
Absolutely, yes.
This constant use of "illegal immigrant" and "undocumented alien" puzzles me as regards any 1789 or 1800 context. The "alien friends and enemies" seem to be something else, as in giving some executive control over deporting alien enemies for being from enemy countries, not for being "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented aliens".
Was there even such a thing as "illegal immigrant" in 1800, other than an actual enemy army? My understanding has always been that there were no immigration controls of any sort until the late 1800s.
What this really seems like to me is a fine example of lawyerly quibbling, and I don't know enough about that to know the exact meanings of "illegal immigrant", "undocumented alien", "alien friend", and "alien enemy", how they all differ in the quibbly sense, and how that changed with the immigration laws of the latter 1800s.
I'm not sure what you're on about. Hyman concentrates of the definition of "alien friend", who are in Madison's judgment exempt from being considered invaders. Illegal immigrants, now that that is a category, are obviously not that.
The undocumented are also our friends.
Friends don't let friends break the law.
Unless they are horrible laws.
What is horrible about current US immigration law (not that it's being enforced)?
Mr. Bumble "What is horrible about current US immigration law...?"
Too much that is legal ought not be legal. (As not enforced it's even worse.)
For starters, people with Ph.Ds in the hard sciences wait on lists for years so that "family reunification" provisions can apply. One tomato picker with a green card can sponsor numerous adult siblings.
It's much much much too restrictive and bureaucratic.
"undocumented"
Absurd New Speak term.
They have documents, issued by the countries they come from.
And often forged ones, obtained here.
...many of which get discarded at the US border.
Reply meant for Bob.
"Absurd New Speak term"
Use the Left's word tricks on them; turnabout is fair play. Someone is no longer illegally in possession of an NFA item, they're an "undocumented machine gun owner."
Dilan Esper: "The undocumented are also our friends."
Bullshit. They are a plague and a pestilence.
Racists gotta racist.
And how does that related to immigration laws in the first 100 years of the Constitution, or the difference between the old phrases and the new ones?
Saying "llegal immigrants ... are obviously not that" -- I have noticed that people use "obvious" to mean "I have no facts so I will just distract you".
What "fact" is needed to prove that someone breaking our laws to steal from us is no "friend"?
"alien friend": ET, Uncle Martin, Mork from Ork
"alien enemy": Daleks, Predator, the Borg
HTH
Eh, maybe, except that politicians nowadays would disagree about the Borg.
Unless it was Seven of Nine.
Since the Borg would put them out of a job, I suspect that politicians would not actually like them. That some humans would betray Earth by siding with alien enemies doesn't mean they're not enemies. But of course we have to exclude Seven of Nine and probably Hugh.
"undocumented alien": Superman, Thor
"illegal alien": Starman (human cloning), Mars Needs Women (human trafficking)
Politicians know will lose some elections, yet they continue supporting them. Most statists, 99.99%, know they will never be the ones in charge, yet they continue supporting new laws and regulations. A glimmer of hope is all it takes. The Borg would be supported.
Haven't the Borg already infiltrated the FBI?
No, infiltration doesn't seem a Borg thing. You're thinking Quinn Martin's "The Invaders", maybe.
What was that alien race that infiltrated Star Fleet but could be detected because even when in human guise as Admiral-copies (or were they parasites?) they liked so much to snack on bowl-fulls of live grubs?
Parasites.
See, that's who should be complaining about invasive parasites - our own native born class of parasites.
But they win elections too; for the two party politicians as a whole, more than 50% (sometimes they're running unopposed). That 99.99% of statists are probably not actually politicians, some of whom do get to be in charge, at least to the extent of creating new laws and regulations.
Not much of a glimmer of hope with the Borg, though.
You pretty conspicuously didn't respond to Hyman's invocation of the 10th amendment. I wonder why?
A reminder: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
If you were actually right about controlling immigration not being a federal power, it unavoidably would be a state power. I'd be interested to see you stop ducking that issue.
"If you were actually right about controlling immigration not being a federal power..."
Where did he make the claim it wasn't, Brett? Is this another hallucination you need to report to your Doctor?
Right here.
Thank you.
Above, really, too. All he's doing above is attacking one of several constitutional basis for the federal government controlling immigration.
The only basis I can recall him ever conceding that government at any level can lawfully obstruct 'migration' across our borders is plague carriers and hostile armies. Not that he permits any provisions that would actually enable detecting the former, though; It remains mostly theoretical.
The problem with our immigration system encourages people to make a difficult dangerous journey and in return they get a shadow existence where its difficult to have a stable job, housing, banking, or even a drivers license in 2/3 the states. It funds the cartels that control the border and allows them to exploit illegal migrants financially and sexually, which also endangers Americans near the border or foolhardy enough to cross it.
We should reform our immigration system to allow more work visas, but it should be based on actual labor shortages. And we certainly shouldn't have perpetuate the current H1B visa system which basically allows the tech companies to run their own private immigration system for their own benefit.
But even if we reform our immigration system to allow more work visas, we will still have thousands of people every day trying to cross the border claiming asylum.
Just say no.
THAT is NOT "the" problem with the US immigration system. It's an undesirable side effect, but "the" problem is that the invaders are not being kept out.
To the extent that we allow the immigration system to allow more work visas, that should only be for men to come seasonally, without their families, and then to return at the end. And this should come with eliminating birthright citizenship. The fact that we need (taking your argument at face value) laborers doesn't mean we need his pregnant wife and 4 children, all of whom will need ESL and special ed.
"And we certainly shouldn’t have perpetuate the current H1B visa system which basically allows the tech companies to run their own private immigration system for their own benefit."
Like Disney?
And Mar-a-Lago.
If you make war on the infrastructure used by illegal border jumpers, you'd go a long way toward slowing things down. Can't imagine there's anything unlawful about using the military to suppress human traffickers, drug smugglers, and other criminal infiltrators who are crossing our borders. If you don't have borders, you don't have a country.
Madison was a partisan political actor, who wrote to advance his preferred interpretation of the Constitution. He was an anti-anti-Federalist whose vision was rebuked by the Bill of Rights. However, the Supreme Court took care of that and the voice of the people were lost and the oligarchy ruled. Just like now. Americans are being replaced, as a people, in order for the oligarchy to maintain and increase its power. What a shock it will be when it all falls apart, with due credit for the cataclysm to come to Mr. Somin. Who wins the coming conflict is unknowable. But it will be very, very bad.
Illegals can’t vote, dude.
You know who cam vote? We call them Americans.
No one is being replaced.
This is a second attempt to post. The first is “awaiting moderation”, so I’m removing the live links.
“Illegals can’t vote, dude.”
Sure they can, dude. All you have to do is put them on a path to citizenship and when they reach the end of that path they get to undo the vote of real citizens. Or maybe they don’t even have to wait that long.
ballotpedia dot org slash Laws_permitting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_States
They can already initiate chain migration without waiting for citizenship. Have you heard of the Welcome Corps?
“[Private Sponsor] Groups can be formed by friends, neighbors, work colleagues, book club members—any group of adults who together meet the requirements: a minimum of five members who are U.S. citizens OR LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENTS [i.e., have a Green Card, which an illegal gets under current practice when he is paroled into the country without an appearance date], who are over the age of 18 and who live in or near the welcoming community.”
welcomecorps dot org slash get-started
dhs dot gov slash immigration-statistics slash lawful-permanent-residents
When they reach the end of that path, they are real citizens.
This is a lie. They can't vote, but their "citizen" anchor-baby children sure can. The voting population was 90% white in 1965. Now it's about 60%. How do you think that happened? Did non-white voters just drop out of the sky?
Let me clarify. It's not a lie per se, but harping on the fact that illegals can't vote when you KNOW that the progeny they produce can is disingenuous.
Even if illegals can't vote, they increase the voting power of actual citizens in 'blue' areas, by distorting apportionment.
Maybe red areas should stop trying to drive them away, then.
They can't vote legally. But they can and do easily vote. In my own state there is no enforcement mechanism. When you register, you simply check a box to affirm you are eligible to vote. Some states like CA, register people automatically.
None of this is true. No state has check the box voting.
You are really big on insisting things aren't true that you could easily see for yourself are true.
In fact, in California, for instance, when getting or renewing a driver's license, you have to actively check a box to avoid ending up registered to vote!
John literally pointed this out above.
Sadly, you’re missing the largest Trojan Horse campaign in the history of mankind. While a great number of the illegal migrants entering the country are doing so seeking a better life, in their numbers people who WILL do our country great harm — many already have. The sheer number of children trafficked should give us great pause. It doesn’t. When we are in a war, it will become apparent how far we missed the hidden gifts of this Trojan Horse.
“Madison apparently did not address situations where aliens are prohibited to enter the U.S. in the first place.”
Unsurprising, since the Constitution he had an active role in framing clearly and unambiguously forbids the federal government to regulate immigration (Article I, Section 9 and Amendment 10); and since he had participated in the ratification debates, in which Pennsylvania made it clear that it would not ratify if the document included such a federal power.
Madison had been dead for nearly 40 years when an activist Supreme Court miracled up such a federal power (in Chy Lung v. Freeman) out of whole cloth and in contradiction to the plain constitutional text.
"Unsurprising, since the Constitution he had an active role in framing clearly and unambiguously forbids the federal government to regulate immigration " prior to 1808. Strange that you'd omit the date that appears so prominently in the clause you're referring to, which makes clear the prohibition was only temporary.
But, yes, the Report of 1800 was, obviously, prior to 1808. As were the Alien acts of 1798. So it's quite reasonable to say that a federal law regulating immigration in 1798 would have been unconstitutional, but that does not imply that the same is true today.
Yes, after 1808, the Constitution could have been amended to create a federal power to regulate immigration.
But it never has been.
Dufus, amendments override previous text: The Constitution could have been amended prior to 1808 to create such a power, if necessary.
It wasn’t necessary, because if you had to create such a power in the first place, they wouldn’t have temporarily barred its exercise.
You might prohibit the exercise of a power you never granted, as a belt and suspenders exercise. You'd never temporarily prohibit the exercise of a power you hadn't granted, that simply makes no sense. You only temporarily prohibit exercise of a power the government DOES have.
US Constitution, Article Four, Section Four states that the “United States shall guarantee to every State a republican form of government and shall protect each of them against invasion.”
Which government has sent its army to invade our borders?
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/05/10/the-end-of-title-42-expulsions-of-migrants-and-what-comes-next/?comments=true#comment-10057048