The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Mitchell (Alabama): "The New Bar Exam Puts DEI Over Competence."
Curricular changes are being made now to address the NextGen Bar in 2026.
In recent years, there have been many shifts in how states administer bar exams. One of the most significant developments has been the expansion of the Uniform Bar Exam (UBE). The upshot of the UBE is that a score is "portable." Someone who receives a passing score in one state can transfer that score to another state. The biggest downside, in my view at least, is that the UBE eliminates the requirement to know any state-specific law. Instead, the UBE focuses on "general" legal principles that apply uniformly across the country. In 2015, I warned that the spread of the UBE would obscure the important flavors of local law, and in the long run, harm federalism.
If law students are trained to believe that there is no difference between laws of different states, then an entire generation of lawyers will have even less regard for the values of federalism, wherein the states can serve as laboratories of democracy. There is an importance in State A and State B being able to approach the same principle of law in different ways. Prioritizing a uniform bar exam will diminish respect for that value.
Alas, my concerns did not prevail.
To date, 40+ jurisdictions have adopted the UBE, including my home state of Texas. And that number will eventually approach 50, as states without the UBE place their law students at a competitive disadvantage. The appeal of portability trumped the appeal of lawyers actually knowing the law of the state in which they'll practice. It is difficult to imagine any of these states could abandon the UBE, and revert to a state-specific exam.
Now that the states are hooked, the National Conference of Bar Examiners (NCBE) is preparing the next generation of the exam. The "NextGen" Exam, as it is known, will be launched in 2026. The 1Ls starting in the Fall 2023 will eventually sit for this exam. Prudent law schools will craft their curriculum, in particular 1L coverage, to ensure students are adequately prepared for the NextGen Exam. As usual, law schools are trying to prepare for a moving target--the details of that NextGen are not yet final. And there is reason for concern.
Justice Jay Mitchell of the Alabama Supreme Court highlights some of the troubling revisions in the Wall Street Journal. For example, Mitchell notes, the exam will no longer test Family Law and Wills and Trusts. Last year, my colleagues and I submitted a letter observing that roughly half of the topics covered in property will be optional--that is, students will only need a "general familiarity" with areas like covenants, recording statutes, and mortgages. If a topic is not covered on the exam, then law students likely will not learn that topic. And, when they venture into actual practice, they will be unprepared. For sure, baby lawyers can learn a topic they are unfamiliar with, and I'm sure all of them will. But the NCBE is proactively creating huge gaps in knowledge for all attorneys.
Beyond the substance covered, Mitchell explains how DEI is undergirding the entire process. And a watered-down exam may further reduce the exam's efficacy to measure a lawyer's fitness to practice.
But perhaps the biggest concern is the NCBE's use of the NextGen exam to advance its "diversity, fairness and inclusion" agenda. Two of the organization's stated aims are to "work toward greater equity" by "eliminat[ing] any aspects of our exams that could contribute to performance disparities" and to "promote greater diversity and inclusion in the legal profession." The NCBE reinforces this message by touting its "organization-wide efforts to ensure that diversity, fairness, and inclusion pervade its test products and services."
What does all this mean—and how does it have any relation to the law? Based on the diversity workshop at the NCBE conference, it means putting considerable emphasis on examinees' race, sex, gender identity, nationality and other identity-based characteristics. The idea seems to be that any differences in group outcomes must be eliminated—even if the only way to achieve this goal is to water down the test. On top of all that, an American Civil Liberties Union representative provided conference attendees with a lecture on criminal-justice reform in which he argued that states should minimize or overlook would-be lawyers' convictions for various criminal offenses in deciding whether to admit them to the bar.
None of this is encouraging. It shouldn't matter who you are or where you come from—if you can demonstrate minimal competency on the bar exam and meet a state's character-and-fitness requirements, you should be allowed to practice law. If you can't, you shouldn't be given a license to handle the legal affairs of others. The bar exam should test the law straight—without respect to ideology and on a race- and sex-blind basis.
It would be helpful if a state could simply opt out of the NextGen exam. But they are all hooked onto the UBE. There's no turning back to the old ways. Mitchell proposes one potential off-ramp:
States, for their part, should push for the option to retain the current exam for at least the next five to 10 years until they can properly assess the effectiveness of the new exam. State courts and bar associations would also do well to insist that the NCBE commit in writing that the new exam will be ideologically neutral and blind to race and sex.
In hindsight, state Supreme Courts that adopted the UBE should have given due regard to federalism. Instead, we are stuck with one completely imperfect solution.
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There is a second civil war coming. Or a second Know Nothing movement.
Keyboard warriors love to yap and yammer about a second civil war. Do they remember how the first one turned out for the traitors?
In the present day, who would raise, arm, train, command, supply and pay an insurrectionary force to take on the United States Armed Forces?
Do you remember the memes from 15 years ago? "Not particularly useful against an insurgency."
On the other hand, the "foreign" surveillance infrastructure used against January 6 suspects will be useful against an insurgency. A lot of potential rebels don't understand information security. Of those who have the sense to use encryption, most will not understand traffic analysis. People in three letter agencies are trained to think about who talks to whom.
What Jan 6th shows is that the Feds could eliminate drug dealing if they wanted to. What people forget about the American Revolution is that Washington etc had been British army in French & Indian wars, and that the Civil War generals were all West Point grads.
And dont forget that the Soviet Union imploded...
"Feds could eliminate drug dealing if they wanted to"
By further violating the rights of even more citizens?
Yes. Could does not mean should but when you look at the carnage, maybe.
The DOJ unlawfully conducted 300,000 searches on Americans since J6.
Why do you support them having those powers?
When you say traitors you mean the side that has bellyached about how awful America is for decades in every imaginable instance and every imaginable way, far in excess of complaints from any other group and still does all the time except for the instances when they massively project and start accusing the opposition of being traitors and complaining?
I think he was likely talking about the half-educated bigots, superstition-addled clingers, and disaffected culture war casualties who hate modern America, can't stand all of this damned progress, and whine incessantly about illusory good old days.
But enough about Chicagoans...
"Progress" is a watered-down bar exam that any idiot can pass.
"Intellectual betters" indeed...
Speaking of South Texas College of Law Houston . . . carry on, clingers.
What do you know about law school Coach Sandusky?? Where your (apparently shitty, but then again you were guilty as fuck) Defense Attorneys went?
and if you're not Coach Sandusky, how about just telling us what State you (supposedly, yeah right, you're about as much a Lawyer as umm, Jerry Sandusky) went to school in
I'm guessing one ot those "Klinger" states
Theoretically of course,
"Coach"
Frank "Alabama, for HighSchool/College/Med School (does it show?)"
Modern America is where 50% of Californian high school graduates are functionally illiterate.
Modern America is where 'liberals' and 'progressives' flee in droves to red states because they cannot afford to live in the big blue ones, and yet will seek to replicate the same legal and socio-economic conditions they fled in their new homes
Modern America is where the lowest common denominator entertainment media is vomited upon the world (and serves as propaganda). Indeed, modern America CANNOT produce high art, music, architecture, theatre, film, television, or other forms of cultural production. Modern America pretends trash is good, let alone equal.
Modern America's fails to meet replacement rate and is desperately reliant upon uneducated third worlders to boost the population (and to do the shit work).
Modern America engages in pervasive speech and thought control. It is an embarrassment even to those of us in the West with less robust free speech legal norms.
Modern America masks its emotional-driven political and ethical blather as if it was scientific (the product of science, co-terminous with science, and promoted by epistemic authorities with science-like credentials).
Modern America has pathological fuckwits like you, AIDS, dedicating sizable portions of their lives to petulant comments on the enemy's blogs. Like a six year-old in a schoolyard.
Modern America has no future. It cannot, by definition, be progress, and its mindless ideologues cannot be progressive. What a sad, pathetic demise for your country, AIDS.
Speaking of the ‘Modern’ America, what percentage of male Afghan refugees brought to the USA after you abandoned the country are married to children?
Do you reckon that, in the kinder, more inclusive, America, that sort of practice will be normalized?
Bellyaching like telling school children they are inherently racist due to the color of their skin?
Undermining parents, families and entire generations by promoting medical mutilation in service of current fads?
There is plenty of stupid, destruction nonsense throughout society.
The states raised
the rebel army the last time…. Far more likely is another know nothing movement and that started at the state level as well. And it wouldnt take an army to abolish the ABA or vastly change the legal system. A know nothing Congress could easially impeach & remove 200 federal judges in 2 years, and replace them..,
Why don’t the right and moderates join the ABA en masse and take over its board, etc?
Isn’t the ABA's insanity ultimately your fault, for abandoning it and letting the uneducated totalitarians take over?
“In the present day, who would raise, arm, train, command, supply and pay an insurrectionary force to take on the United States Armed Forces?”
Same as most every other insurrection over the last century: other countries that perceive a benefit in having a powerful competitor brought down by internal conflict.
As you know, the US has funded many insurgencies in other countries. Do you imagine we’re the only ones with enough resources to do that? Even Iran, with a second rate economy and crushing sanctions, manages to budget some. Destruction and discord are much cheaper than construction and maintaining order.
Longer than that. The French funded the revolution and the British had to pay damages for the confeerate raiders.
Yup, your examples are even more on point.
"In the present day, who would raise, arm, train, command, supply and pay an insurrectionary force to take on the United States Armed Forces?"
Why do you people cling to this myth? Have you not seen those same forces get their teeth kicked in my spear throwing goat fuckers for the past 30 years?
In the ultimate humiliation that military handed over $100B in weapons and vehicles to these same 5th century goat fuckers while sneaking out of country in the middle of the night like a bunch of homos.
No one is afraid of the US Military.
"In the present day, who would raise, arm, train, command, supply and pay an insurrectionary force to take on the United States Armed Forces?"
What makes you think the United States Armed Forces will be on YOUR side, traitor?
Because a sizable porition of your actual armed forces can plainly see that its leadership seeks to completely delegitimize THEM and destroy the American values they thought they were enlisting and fighting for. They can see that their own leadership’s interests aren’t fidelity to the US constitution or the American republic, but rather to some ulterior, comprehensive, ‘progressive’, social re-engineering project.
Now, you can either interpret that as the leadership’s TREASON, or, more credibly methinks, as the masses seeing for the first time that their country’s government isn’t at all what it claims to be, and that the republic is run by elites by and with an ulterior set of values, politics, and goals than that which they feed and educate the masses.
Large swathes of your armed forces aren’t going to fight and die for Taiwan, or Kazakhstan, when their own government says that they and their values are parochial, reflect an outdated (and ‘dangerous’) nationalism, hetero-normativity, patriarchal oppression, is outdatedly religious, etc., and that America ITSELF must become something fundamentally different from what it already is (or, rather, what the members of the Armed Forces always thought it was).
You guys are so fucked it’s unbelievable.
Thanks for spending thirty years enriching China and fucking us all now for centuries, by the way.
I sure hope so. I yearn for the day when Democrats get thrown into gas chambers.
No. Remember the French Revolution....
The French Revolution was a bunch of ugly proto-Democrats lashing out at the beautiful and smart people.
Sitting there doing nothing is too dangerous
Still - no....
Guillotine works too.
You’re such a dork ass loser.
And you're a groomer.
Thanks for proving my point with such a lame and uncreative rejoinder.
Do you offer little boys lube prior to molesting them?
Do you think making lurid and false allegations regarding child sexual abuse to win internet arguments makes you a good person?
Do you think deepthroating the State makes you one?
No. But having the correct morals and not being an anti-social and violent freak like hoppy does.
These un-American bigots are the target audience of a blog operated by disaffected, fringe-inhabiting, white, male right-wing law professors.
This is the best the Federalist Society can do. No wonder conservatives are uncompetitive in the culture war, and are being painted into increasingly uneducated, bigoted, superstitious, desolate portions of America.
AIDS, you paint them as ‘uneducated’ and as ‘bigoted’ because YOU are losing the global culture war and have no defence for your own socially constructed value system.
When held to account, and demanded to show the true scientific underpinnings of your ethical and political norms, you cannot. When asked to defend your political and ethical norms' their worth in the face of their clearly forming part of an evolutionarily inferior meme (as evidenced by your birth rates), you can’t. And you don't even try.
Claiming that it makes you educated is just a conceit, backed by nothing. And you repeatedly show your bigotry here on this blog, AIDS. How, then, could the term be a negative one for you?
At any rate, for the rest of the globe, your inability to defend your own values, let alone show their superiority, is no surprise. ‘Modern’ Americans, as you call your left-liberal compatriots, are just typical American bullshitters selling the world more useless snake oil.
Your time is over, AIDS, you clinger. You will go the way of the dinosaurs. And you will have left the world a worse place than you found it, you pig.
Thus blog is fringe, though. Its libertarianism is dead and the right is waking up to the fact that, at best, libertarianism was a superficial ideology, and, at worst, a form of mystification and control against the masses’ core interests (eg protecting themselves from liberal and leftist social engineering disasters).
Hey! I'm supposed to be the ones talking truth to the Groomers!
Dr. Ed 2 : “There is a second civil war coming. Or a second Know Nothing movement”
Nostradamus Ed strikes again! In my limited time visiting this site, I’ve seen him predict nuclear war, multiple depressions, countless calamities, and civil wars beyond all my fingers & toes (so I’ve lost count).
The good news? Absolutely nothing he foretells ever comes true.
The bad news? Everybody’s right sometimes, and since all his predictions have an extremely apocalyptic bent, woe to us all!
The value that he thus shows is immeasurable. If great catastrophes can be avoided by Dr. Ed 2 writing about it, he has saved millions of lives and billions of dollars in property losses.
Dr. Ed is the second, third, fourth, and fifth Know Nothing movements all by himself.
You are ignorant. Look up where the term cane from.
I know where it "cane" from. I also know that you're a janitor.
Because you're smarter than Janitors? Because they're predominantly Black/Hispanic/Those Asian Races even the Asians hate
Piss off the Janitors at your own risk, unless you shit 100% at home,
Frank "Loves the Janitors"
Imagine reading about bar exam minutia and being like: we’re headed to a second civil war. What kind of freak does thinks like that?
Someone with knowledge of how the first one started........
Who would that be? You can’t possibly mean yourself.
By all means, please explain the causes of the civil war that you feel are analogous to making the bar exam too easy.
Characterizing what is in the process of happening here as " making the bar exam too easy" is remarkably dishonest.
Yes, your lot has been forecasting its desire to commit bloody murder of the libz for some time now. Just keep telling on yourself.
How the latter? In addition to the many millions already there (including those in control of your supreme court), The USA is being replaced by papists.
Way too little too late, I'm afraid. Should have listened to President Filmore and to Senator Blaine (and even they were too late).
Don't be absurd.
Go look up a map of the county-level breakdown of the 1860 presidential election (that is, the one right before the Civil War). The geographic divide between the country is stark and obvious, it really was "North vs South".
Now go look up a map of the county-level breakdown of the 2020 presidential election (or, indeed, any election in the past thirty years). There's a divide all-right, but it's not by geography or state, or North/South, or anything like that.
It's rural vs. urban, and it's present in every state of the union.
So no. If we're heading to some kind of internal violent conflict, it's not a civil war. It's "The Troubles"-style domestic terrorism.
Competence, not ideology. The Mike Dukakis of justices.
Great post highlighting the danger of focusing on social activistism versus juris prudence - principles, and mixing the two is a real problem.
Remember the MD who got Bakkes seat in med school...
Absolutely bullshit headline.
eliminat[ing] any aspects of our exams that could contribute to performance disparities" is just the usual standardized test improvement process. It's been going on iteratively since the 1990s. It has jack shit to do with 'putting diversity over competence.'
But you sent out the call for right-wing culture warriors, and they have arrived, calling for civil war 2 and not reading very carefully.
Blackman does a great NY Post impression, and the Conspiracy is worse for it.
I think it's more complicated than you or Blackman are admitting.
When creating an exam, one has to decide what you're trying to measure: knowledge and ability the examinee has actually acquired, regardless of how it happened, versus what the examinee could be capable of acquiring given fair opportunity.
Most people would agree that an entrance exam should measure the latter. On an exit exam, it might need to be the former. Sometimes (e.g. clearing a pilot to fly a plane) you need to measure what the person can do right now, and if the would-be pilot can't do it solely because life has been unjust, we're still not going to let them fly. IANAL but I'd say the bar exam is something in between, measuring potential as well as accomplishment.
I agree an exam should test knowledge. Especially this late in one's education, that's the best proxy for success that's testable.
That's not my issue.
I fully reject Blackman’s thesis that there are any changes in the exam to test diversity, or favor nonwhites, or anything like that.
He has provided zero actual support. He’s noted the ACLU spoke, he’s mischaracterized the design of standardized tests to not favor any demographic as favoring nonwhites, and he’s disingenuous in his characterization of the family law and wills and trusts as regular bar subjects.
If you check the website on diversity, it says: “We actively work to eliminate any aspects of our testing programs that could contribute to performance disparities among different groups.” Blackman implies the opposite is true – that whites are being actively disfavored, because he’s a race-baiting liar.
QUALIFICATION causes a difference in outcome.
Or, he’s accurately characterized the actual bottom-line behavior that you’re trying to dismiss with one of your labeling games.
The assumption that a “fair” test will result in equality of outcome for every single demographic group in the world is feel-good nonsense that never has and never will happen in the real world.
Equality of outcome thus has to be artificially forced by the test administrators, either by coming up with ways to award points to those that couldn’t earn them on the actual subject matter being tested, or the other way around.
The assumption that a “fair” test will result in equality of outcome for every single demographic group in the world is feel-good nonsense that never has and never will happen in the real world.
The upshot of not making that assumption is that some races are inherently inferior so lets not even examine if there's an issue.
Did you even notice your thesis requires you be so bone-deep racist you shouldn't even put in effort to see if you're wrong?
I presume the studies on the issue are all wrong in your eyes.
Fascinating how you had to replace "demographic" in my post with "race" in order to shout me down.
So let's try again: is it your position that if a test does not produce equal scores when taken by every single demographic in the world, that test is unfair? If so, you're going to have to do a bit more actual work than handwaving about "the studies on the issue" and comparable tripe.
Yes, I said nonwhites. I'm sticking with that particular scope. If you are offering a statement about demographics that do not include race, you should say so when responding to my statement about race.
is it your position that if a test does not produce equal scores when taken by every single demographic in the world, that test is unfair?
You know I've never said that. My thesis and arguments are not unclear.
Your pedantry and goalpost moving remains as tedious as ever.
"You know I’ve never said that. My thesis and arguments are not unclear."
Um, yeah, your thesis and arguments are not unclear. They clearly say what you're claiming that you're not saying.
Huh? Where does he claim that races are some inherently inferior? You're making that up.
*some races are
He's making the usual assumption that absolutely the only way some group could under perform on any metric is if they're inherently inferior, so that if you reject that claim, you have to reject any possibility of a group genuinely under-performing.
So if a group does badly on the test, the test MUST be skewed against them. It's literally the only admissible explanation!
No, Brett - my thesis is that the only way to support the argument that it is a bad idea to keep addressing demographic bias in a test is if there is some inherent lack of ability.
I don't believe we should stop, so I don't believe there is an inherent lack of ability.
You, on the other hand, BELIEVE IN THE BELL CURVE. So you DO believe in the exact thing you accuse me of.
"No, Brett – my thesis is that the only way to support the argument that it is a bad idea to keep addressing demographic bias in a test is if there is some inherent lack of ability."
What do you mean by "inherent lack of ability"? It's certainly possible for some demographics to be subject to conditions that put them at a disadvantage that's not due to an inherent lack of ability. But that doesn't mean there's no substantive disadvantage.
Look, it's not an inherent lack of ability if some group, on average, just put less work into academics, say, than another group. Nothing says that every group of people have to have statistically identical interests and tendencies. Inherent ability doesn't accomplish squat if your parents offer you no encouragement in a direction.
So, it's a bit of a cliché that my Asian-American son is good at playing a piano and taking AP math. But that's not because he's got piano playing genes, it's because those are the directions we raised him in, because we were raised that way, too.
Plenty of people overcome shitty parents, dumbass.
Here:
The assumption that a “fair” test will result in equality of outcome for every single demographic group in the world is feel-good nonsense that never has and never will happen in the real world.
Yes, he never said some races are inherently inferior.
But everyone knows that "every singly demographic group in the world" is largely a reference to difference races (esp. since that was a focus of the article itself).
And "never has and never will happen in the real world" is clearly a claim you can't bring those other races up to the same achievement.
Now, I'll grant you that "inherently inferior" might be a stretch, but still, he's playing the old Tucker Carlson strategy where you lay out an argument for racism then act all shocked and appalled when someone actually mentions race in their retort.
Nah -- you and Sarc are just so determined to see everything through racial glasses that you can't entertain a discussion not grounded in race.
Different cultures have differences, else they wouldn't be different. Cultural differences as observed in the real world unquestionably include factors like work ethic and attitude toward the value/importance of education in general, which will show up on the results of tests of much more than writing your name on a piece of paper (and probably even that, since some will simply refuse to write it given factor 2 above).
Sometime try reading some of Thomas Sowell's writing about education in the black community in the 19th century, in areas where black kids were held (by both educators and parents!) to the same expectations and standards as the others. The current corner we're trying to paint ourselves out of by dumbing down the material even further than it's already been dumbed down has nothing whatsoever to do with skin color.
This is like some vintage 1990s racism. No, blacks are not a monolith. No, blacks do not come from a culture with a bad work ethic. No, being educated is not looked down on as acting white.
Update your shitty racist hot takes.
Which is precisely what I just said above vis-a-vis 19th century educational expectations, chucklehead.
Try reading again, more slowly, and while at least trying to ignore your comically off-base priors. There's always hope.
Nah, there isn't.
Gaslightr0 is anyway confusing a priori capability with the results of measurement of current capabilities. If current capabilities aren't the same for whatever reason then you can't fix disparities in current measurements by better testing.
Why do smart people choose schools operated by and for the liberal-liberal mainstream, while schools operated by and for conservatives are dumber students? Why are our strongest schools operated by liberals and based on reason while conservatives-controlled campuses are fourth tier (or worse), superstition-shackled hayseed factories?
"If current capabilities aren’t the same for whatever reason then you can’t fix disparities in current measurements by better testing."
That was the point I was trying to make to him. The tests are measuring something very real, but since it's a real thing Sarcastr0 regards as unpossible, the test has to be wrong. It simply has to be, no other conclusion is admissible.
Race and culture are highly correlated. So when you start stereotyping based on culture, you end up stereotyping on race as well.
Now, I'll certainly agree there are some subcultures in the US that are not very conducive to raising kids with a good education. But the proper response isn't to shrug one's shoulders and assume equal outcomes is impossible, the proper response is to strive for equality by fixing what we can.
No one is saying that they should achieve strict proportionality in the bar. But they should be looking for ways to reduce the achievement gap. Like removing racial bias from the tests.
That's the big problem with the Judge's position. It basically comes down to "lets make a test by whites, be default for whites, and it's a bonus if anyone else passes". It's not deliberately racist, but it starts to become racist if you realize there's a bias and you don't do anything about it.
" But the proper response isn’t to shrug one’s shoulders and assume equal outcomes is impossible, the proper response is to strive for equality by fixing what we can."
Whether this is true or not, what you're suggesting is very different from simply eliminating the portions of the tests that measure this inequality.
It basically comes down to “lets make a test by whites, be default for whites, and it’s a bonus if anyone else passes”. It’s not deliberately racist, but it starts to become racist if you realize there’s a bias and you don’t do anything about it.
What is a "test for whites"? How is it different from a "test for blacks"? Please, feel free to elaborate.
What is a “test for whites”? How is it different from a “test for blacks”? Please, feel free to elaborate.
As Sarcastro pointed out, talk about things like regattas.
There's a lot of terminology and scenarios that a group of white test makers may assume would be familiar to everyone, but are far more familiar to white people and put others at a disadvantage.
For comparison, imagine a test written by inner city black people that had a lot of examples involving basketball and hip-hop culture. Sure you could figure it out, but some of the focus you could be using to solve the core of the test would be wasted getting your head around unfamiliar terminology and examples.
The upshot of not making that assumption is that some races are inherently inferior so lets not even examine if there’s an issue.
Actually, that’s only the upshot if you subconsciously agree with the racists.
Let’s say we agree there are no innate differences and every difference in outcome is 100% due to a racist society, and that it is problem. A scrupulously objective test will show the effects of that racism, because the effects are real and objective.
Now the question is: do you make the problem “go away” by changing the test, or do you leave the test alone and address the causes?
Simply changing the test is, in a way, like the proposals to make racism go away by no longer collecting the data. (BTW, I’m not claiming the test is actually getting easier, I have no clue.)
Except that LoB is saying, as I noted, that we shouldn't even try and address disparities in the test.
That is overdetermined to the point of abandoning the issue.
"Except that LoB is saying, as I noted, that we shouldn’t even try and address disparities in the test."
No he's not. He's saying that we shouldn't eliminate substantive and useful aspects of the test just because they might cause different outcomes across groups.
Some races are inherently inferior at some things. This does not give us some sort of window into the worth of the person as a whole.
For example, if you went to the top 50 scores on the 100 meter dash of all time those with West African ancestry are massively over-represented due to some genetic characteristics. OTOH, those same people perform quite poorly in marathons where a subgroup of East Africans does best. Both of those do poorly on the test of Nobel Prize Laureates where Ashkenazi Jews are very over-represented.
Well, maybe he implies that whites are being actively disfavored, depending on how sensitive you've got your dog whistle detector set to (and BTW it is possible to set it too sensitive).
I read it simply as a claim that the test would be made easier for everyone. You're saying he's wrong, and he might be. I know engineering professors constantly worry that the higher-ups are trying to water stuff down but objectively the licensing exam pass rates haven't really moved much.
I assume Blackman knows that the threshold of passage is not chosen by any of the people he's criticizing.
That's where the ease/difficulty would come in, no?
Maybe it's not a fair assumption, maybe Blackman is even more ignorant than I thought.
"I fully reject Blackman’s thesis that there are any changes in the exam to test diversity, or favor nonwhites, or anything like that."
His post doesn't say anything about whites or nonwhites. Your comment is the first to use this.
I fully reject Blackman’s thesis that there are any changes in the exam to test diversity, or favor nonwhites, or anything like that.
He has provided zero actual support.
This is the fundamental point. His headline is unsupported by the post.
The headline says, "Justice Mitchell (Alabama): "The New Bar Exam Puts DEI Over Competence." It's literally just the title of the WSJ article he's responding to.
Nowhere does Blackman suggest that the exam is being changed to "test diversity", "favor non-whites", or anything like that. Not in the headline, nor in the body of the piece Not one word he laid down or quoted can be reasonably interpreted to assert that, and so it is not his thesis, and he doesn't have to support it.
The actual thesis, essentially, is that if you reduce the meritocracy in the intake and middle stages of an educational process, in an effort to achieve some external goal unrelated to merit, such as DEI, having a purely meritocratic test at the end of the process frustrates your aims. It reimposes a meritocratic final outcome, rendering all your prior deviation from meritocracy futile.
So you take the meritocratic element out of the final test, too, dumbing it down so that it's no longer a filter: If EVERYBODY passes it, then the people passing it will perfectly reflect the people taking it, the composition of which you've already put work into manipulating.
The new test doesn't have to discriminate. The discrimination having already been accomplished at earlier stages, it just has to be easy enough that it doesn't undo that earlier discrimination.
If you want to be pedantic, putting DEI over competence means the test is putting nonwhites passing over testing for merit.
That is and remains unestablished by anything he wrote, and assumed but also unestablished by you,
I'd pass on the last part of the article and focus on the first part, viz, whether the UBE, because of its *uniform* focus, adequately tests competence to practice.
Admittedly, dinosaurs were still roaming the earth - 54 years ago - when I took and passed the Michigan exam. Accordingly, my familiarity w/ the current components is limited. When I took the exam it consisted of 40 essay answers spread over 2-1/2 days; Michigan, w/in I believe 5 years, added the Multi-State component w/ it counting for 50% of the grade and essay answers counting for the other 50%.
It seems now that even the latter has been eliminated, w/ Michigan's adoption of the UBE. Michigan seems to be one of the only 15 jurisdictions w/ a "Jurisdiction Specific Component", but this consists of an *Online Course".
I consider this definitely to be a deterioration. One, upon admission the newly-minted attorney is able to accept any client matters w/out apparent competence in the State questions that may be presented. Two, and perhaps more important, the essay answer-question format was an excellent test of legal reasoning - an essential characteristic of any lawyer. Having to grapple w/ the bizarre hypothetical situations presented by those questions challenged the prospective attorney to recognize a myriad of legal principles that might be pertinent, then apply them to the situation, and finally resolve the dispute based upon existing law, both State and Federal.
While (again) acknowledging my ignorance of how challenging is the UBE, I fear that we are sacrificing too much, particularly in the quality of the Bar - it already being frequently lamentable.
Your bullshit response omits the "promote greater diversity and inclusion in the legal profession” bit. Why?
No need to worry, this is temporary. In 40 years most intellectual work will be done by descendants of ChatGPT and people won't have to pass hard tests. Knowledge and reasoning ability will still be around, but they'll be like being good at Trivial Pursuit or chess, respectively.
Well, unless the power grid fails and we're killing each other with pointed sticks and stone axes. Either way no bar exam, though.
Sooner or later, it will be concluded that 'right to counsel' will mean whomever you damn well please.
Eventually it will be malpractice insurance ratings - likely published - that will regulate things.
Here is an example from the 1980s of what they try to get rid of in test standardization:
RUNNER: MARATHON ::
A) envoy: embassy
B) martyr: massacre
C) oarsman: regatta
D) referee: tournament
E) horse: stable
Certain demographics won't know what a regatta is. That's not a test of knowledge.
And THAT is what they are talking about when they talk about 'aspects of our exams that could contribute to performance disparities.'
This is not some secret. It's been an open discussion for 40 years now. Blackman's implying otherwise with no support, and no acknowledgement of this discussion. And the usual gang of white resentment assholes are into it.
What demographics wouldn't know what a regatta is and why?
There’s this 20 minute DEI video we have to re-watch once per year as part of our compliance training. It consists of clips of classroom lectures, with a narrator stopping each clip to point out what the prof did wrong. At each stop the camera cuts to the narrator, she makes her point, then crosses her arms, raises her chin, and then gives a sharp nod.
In one clip, the prof is explaining something to a student and says “Manuel, it’s like when you’re fixing a bicycle and ,,,[cut]”. Narrator: “Why did he assume a Latino would know how to fix a bicycle? Hmm? Hmm? [crosses arms, raises chin, nods sharply]”
I know what point she’s trying to make. She fails. The real point she’s making is that she, the narrator, is an entitled, privileged snob who proudly rides a bike for the environment but thinks repairing it or knowing how it works is a low, dirty job that someone else should do for her. I think you’ve already guessed that the narrator was a white woman.
It also shows that she doesn’t realize that using cross/raise/nod to mean “my point is irrefutable” is itself very poor teaching technique.
What was I trying to say....oh, yeah, sometimes things like the regatta complaint reveal as much about the complainer as the offender.
Me for one, Irish/Jew, is it a Ferrari?
Not being a BB fan, Id think that 'foul' meant rainy. The purpose of a large vocabulary is to know what a regatta is even though Ive never seen one.
If the purpose of that question was to test vocab, you might have a point.
It sure looks like a vocabulary test to me.
In fact, looking it up, it WAS a vocabulary test.
"Certain demographics won’t know what a regatta is. That’s not a test of knowledge."
Testing whether people know something is, literally, a test of knowledge. What you're really claiming here is that if knowledge correlates with demographics, it ceases being knowledge.
Which is really stupid.
It sure looks like a vocabulary test to me.
In fact, looking it up, it WAS a vocabulary test.
I don't know what you looked up, but the criticism of this section - and indeed analogies are now gone from the SAT - were that it wasn't testing verbal reasoning like it claimed.
And even if it were about vocab, regatta still an awful and biased choice of word to require someone know.
Biased against who? People from Kansas?
It might be biased in favor of the 0.2% of the population that participate in or watch regattas. For the rest of us, it’s more a test of whether you are widely read. If that’s not the purpose of the test, it might be an inappropriate question, and it should be removed. But it’s not evidence of bias against a protected class.
It might be biased in favor of the 0.2% of the population that participate in or watch regattas. For the rest of us, it’s more a test of whether you are widely read.
Widely read in European culture you mean.
I love the weird insistence people here seem to have that the word "regatta" has no cultural bias.
Hey, here's a list of words for your next vocabulary test
Every word has cultural significance simply from being in one language rather than another. Your list is great, I’d probably do poorly on it compared to a 30 year old urbanite, and that poor performance is to be blamed on me, not society.
Art institutes, music schools, and modern culture programs could very reasonably ask those questions. And it would not be bias against white people to do so.
I'd do surprisingly well on your vocabulary test, which, setting aside a few specialized terms, is a test of musical vocabulary and modern slang. And I have a 14 year old son who plays and composes for piano.
Just got back from a recital, actually.
Plenty of other tests you would fail, though.
Relying on your specific experience proves myself’s point.
Yeah, I have no doubt that you could carefully design a test I'd fail. I may be pretty widely read, but I'm sure you could find some obscure ethnic group, or foreign country to base the test around. Heck, just write the test in Swahili, that would get the job done.
But, so freaking what? We're not talking about a test that's going to be used on some South Sea island nation with a population of 5,000 people. We're talking about a test in America, to be taken by Americans, to measure (For the SAT) projected academic success in American schools. For the bar exam, a test intended to measure competence at American law practiced in America.
So it's utterly irrelevant that even an Einstein class genius born and raised in a non-English country with no cultural connection to the US wouldn't pass. Such a person wouldn't be able to practice American law, and probably wouldn't do well in our schools, either, until they'd studied enough English to pass the test, too. So the test is perfectly valid as a measure of merit. You might as well complain that the test is in (American) English.
If you were raised in America, or even a Western nation, and you don't know what a regatta is, that actually DOES say something about you. There are kids growing up on farms in Kansas who know what a regatta is! Because they were intellectually curious, and read a lot. Traits that help you in school, and the SAT is the "Scholastic Aptitude Test", intended to determine how well you're going to do in school.
I’m not designing anything. There are vocabulary sets used other than by white well-off engineers with a kid who is into piano,
You define America around your experience. Realize that is not the limit of what America is.
If you were raised in America, or even a Western nation, and you don’t know what a regatta is, that actually DOES say something about you. There are kids growing up on farms in Kansas who know what a regatta is! Because they were intellectually curious, and read a lot. Traits that help you in school, and the SAT is the “Scholastic Aptitude Test”, intended to determine how well you’re going to do in school.
Intellectually curious kids of European ancestry read up on things doing with European culture, like "regatta".
So yeah, your test full of terms like "regatta" will heavily bias white Americans over non-white Americans.
If this well-worn example is the best you can do to illustrate your point, I'm afraid it ain't much of a point. You can eliminate the other four choices as not fitting the pattern without having the slightest clue what a regatta is. Standardized tests are designed to measure both knowledge and reasoning ability, and I suspect the main reason people get their knickers in a twist over the first is because they're lacking in the second.
My point is that this kind of thing is what the NCBE is talking about, not what Blackman implies.
They have no control over the difficulty different jurisdictions set.
You seem to be utterly missing the point - the issue is that the question is easier for some folks and harder for others, not that you can bullshit your way into claiming you could totally have done it.
Oh dear, perhaps you let the mask slip a bit too much? If every question in a test is of equal difficulty for everyone taking the test, the test won't tell you anything about relative performance among the test-takers and thus loses its very reason for existing.
Maybe that's what you ultimately want, but if so at least be honest and just advocate for canning the entire test rather than manipulating it into irrelevancy.
I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about groups.
This is quite clear. Quit playing games.
Would that be... um, monolithic groups? Make up your mind, dude. Your flip-flopping is giving me whiplash.
S_0,
How do you explain the very large demographic disparity on the Physics GRE?
Questions concern what every undergraduate physics major should have learned in physics.
I would guess that underlying is a strong correlation between demographics an what colleges the student took their physics training. Even if that is the case how would you eliminate or reduce the demographic disparity?
What are you controlling for?
Here is where we need to get to brass tacks because race has a bunch of conflating factors.
And, if you look at the studies in the past 5 years on race and gender and testing, there look to be teaching methodology factors we don’t yet understand at play as well.
"What are you controlling for?"
What are you asking?
I am only noting that there are gross disparities in the physics scores with respect to the self-identified race of the test takers.
I have made no hypothesis except that I expect a correlation with the strength of the physics programs of test takers and their ethnic/racial identities.
That’s not a useful stat, then. Too many confounding factors.
Same as people who argue blacks are inherently criminal without controlling for class or location.
That doesn't sound like "eliminat[ing] aspects of our exams that could contribute to performance disparities,". Assuming you're not trying to test knowledge of what a regatta is, it sounds like eliminating bias in the test.
But if there are demographic disparities in knowledge of, say, what a contract is, you don't want to eliminate contracts from the bar exam.
"Certain demographics won’t know what a regatta is. That’s not a test of knowledge."
You apparently don’t understand the meaning of the word "knowledge".
If cultures are equal, a culture with a regatta deserves to experience exactly the same respect and sensitivity as any culture without one.
What a strange view.
Vocab is not a zero sum game in the war of cultures.
Tests should and do strive to use words with minimal cultural charge.
Look, unless you limit the vocabulary to Basic English, in which case you're not testing vocabulary at all, you can't avoid words with 'cultural charge', since you can't test vocabulary without using words that everybody doesn't use every day. You can make sure you've got a good MIX of different 'cultural charges', but avoiding it at all is going to dumb down the test enormously.
There is a different cultural aspect to regatta versus like jejune.
This is hard. It is not a binary.
This is you literally not responding to what I actually wrote.
You somehow are arguing that everything has the same level of cultural accessibility.
I provided 2 words that have different levels. Thus exploding your simplistic position.
No, damn it. I'm arguing that essentially every word beyond Basic English is going to be foreign to SOME group out there. If you take out every word SOME group is disadvantaged relative to, you can no longer do challenging vocabulary tests!
Not all words are equally group correlated.
You are so sure our tests are perfect examiners of merit and we should stop trying.
I don't know what a regatta is and I'd probably thus select it as the answer, since none of the other ones really make sense. On the other hand, knowing what it is would make the question much easier for certain demographics.
You are at a disadvantage compared to those who know what it means. That is an issue.
That is true for literally every word in a vocabulary test. This is a really weird hill for you to choose to die on.
My demographic apparently isn’t clear on regatta is, because I didn’t know it would involve oars. I guess the old exam was unfair to middle 60s year old white single gender males with technical degrees. (Did I tick every possible identity box?). Oh, forget part Cherokee. Maybe that last part is why I need you to take care of me.
My poor grandparents and lower middle class parents never took me to the yacht club and if they knew Ted Turner they never mentioned it.
Just keep dumbing things down, though. Your precious DEI peeps have to have something to do to justify their salaries.
One can work to avoid words like regatta without dumbing anything down.
Indeed nothing Blackman posts above indicates any actual dumbing down. Add in that the passing threshold is set by the states, and it’s clear his headline is a lie.
The “E” part of DEI - the only one of the three concepts that DEI proponents actually believe in - frequently results in dumbing down. The assertion in the headline is commonly true (things like elimination of honors classes and honors high schools). So I assumed it was true here, although I have zero personal experience with bar exams and it’s undeniable that Blackman has a strong political bias in his postings. Overwhelmingly strong.
So I dunno. I understand what you’re saying but it’s also a very common undeclared intent of the DEIers to make things easier so that less knowledgeable people can qualify for things.
So stay on topic and don’t rewarm your dei rant yet again.
Lol. Thursday on the open thread I posted about a chef in California getting special privileges from the climate panic crowd. You and the idiot Nige turned it into a way to express your dismay at the heresy of my education and career.
You’re a fine one to constantly be lecturing me as to staying on topic. I guess that as in any other case the rules don’t apply to a fine progressive like yourself.
Attacking me about Thursday is not on topic.
Address arguments, not people.
No. You. Can't.
The set of all words relevantly like regatta for SOMEBODY in your test group is just too large, once you've excluded them ALL, you have indeed dumbed the test down.
Remember, part of what you're testing for is whether the person has had a wide exposure to different concepts. If they've never encountered words outside their local cultural milieu they're SUPPOSED to be dinged for that! Do you not get that?
No one is demanding the threshold you just set of every member knows every word. This is a continuum and you are trying to engineer a bright line.
I cannot believe you are arguing the regatta question is fine and good. Lots of cultural words you don’t know as well, and may not want to be tested on. But those are bad cultures, I guess.
If you changed the correct answer from oarsman: regatta to eater: hot dog contest or hooper: basketball game the demographics of that section wouldn't have shifted at all. Analogies were eliminated because they were difficult, which meant that there was more differentiation of scores among top applicants which is not in keeping with College Board goals. Standardized tests are egg on their face as shown in the Harvard lawsuit.
The same kind of people doing this are the same kind of people who have spent the last 15 years and tens of billions of dollars building exactly zero working miles of high-speed rail in CA.
None of these people are empiricists and nor are any of their bootlickers.
And releasing black felons
To become lawyers. 🙂
Soon anyone will be able to become lawyers. It's going to be awesome.
I see what you mean. Education and transportation are obviously related professions--they're nearly spelled the same!
Hey did you see where I said "same kind of people"?
You sure as shit wouldn't pass the bar even one of this new bar exams being made for the stupid people.
I'm not at all convinced that there is anything being lost here.
In large part I think that is because I reject the premise that the UBE, as currently constituted, does much to measure a person's competence to practice law. I took it years ago. It was a lot of memorization, quickly forgotten, of things that probably won't matter. I've never benefited much from having studied trusts and estates or family law. What I do wish I knew more about is immigration law. Sadly for me, that wasn't on the UBE. My point is that the list of topics is arbitrary and doesn't matter much. The section of the UBE that probably does the most to measure competence is the MPE, the half day of essays based on hypothetical facts and legal documents from fictitious courts that is designed to test skills and not knowledge. As far as I can tell from this post, the MPE isn't changing.
I'm also not sure letting more felons in would be bad, just on its own merits, independent of the racial politics of it. To be clear, I have little sense of how difficult it is for a felon to get admitted now. And I certainly do not think that people convicted of fraud or similar crimes should be admitted, but I think the implication in this post is that it is very difficult for any felon now, and given the breadth of felonies, I'm not sure it should be.
I do think that graders should be blind to the race/gender/etc of the exam taker. It's unclear from this post if the NCBE thinks otherwise?
I've taken multiple bar exams and none of them prepared me to "be a lawyer". And law school itself was at least one year too long.
Law is a profession you must "learn on the job", but of course you have to have been prepared to do so (and been selected for being able to do so).
Tests don't prepare anybody to do anything, they check to see if you're already prepared. So the fact that none of those tests prepared you to be a lawyer is hardly shocking.
You are utterly right. So is he, especially about that third year of law school. To the point I don’t think he meant prepare.
"I do think that graders should be blind to the race/gender/etc of the exam taker. It’s unclear from this post if the NCBE thinks otherwise?"
It is? Then how is the “promote greater diversity and inclusion in the legal profession” goal to be achieved? How are "goals" usually achieved?
The bar exam is the last in a series of IQ test/effort tests to become a lawyer.
Democrats don’t value competence. Democrats value appearances.
Why are our strongest schools operated by and for the liberal-libertarian mainstream while conservative-controlled schools are low-quality institutions?
Again with the Rhett-Butt( Coach Sandusky does know the "Butts") ler-Oral-cle questions, you tell us "Coach"!
Associate Justice Mitchell is a slow fish in a small, bigoted pond.
This guy figures he's an expert on credentials, after he concluded in his 30s that he was ready for a position on a (backwater) state supreme court? He reached the bench with votes from bigoted, right-wing culture war casualties, not on merit.
Speaking of merit and credentials, how many of the clerks this hayseed has hired were not members of the Federalist Society?
Carry on, clingers. Especially the drawling, old-timey, white male clingers who just can't abide modern America and all of this damned progress.
If the bar exam ever tested the examinee's knowledge of state law effectively, it hasn't done that in the 40-odd years since I took it.
On top of all that, an American Civil Liberties Union representative provided conference attendees with a lecture on criminal-justice reform in which he argued that states should minimize or overlook would-be lawyers' convictions for various criminal offenses in deciding whether to admit them to the bar.
I wonder if Justice Mitchell ever smoked pot as a youth. If so, and if he'd been African American, he would have been disproportionately likely to end up with a criminal record.
Well I guess, then, if you're an African American it's PARTICULARLY stupid of you to smoke pot.
"the exam will no longer test Family Law and Wills and Trusts"
So what? There are web sites for that.
I guess you didn't read the post.
"If a topic is not covered on the exam, then law students likely will not learn that topic. And, when they venture into actual practice, they will be unprepared. For sure, baby lawyers can learn a topic they are unfamiliar with, and I'm sure all of them will. But the NCBE is proactively creating huge gaps in knowledge for all attorneys."
Yeah, I read that.
What's it got to do with the web sites doing wills and trusts, and a lot of other "lawyer" things?
The quiet part out loud. North Carolina Rep. Jeff McNeely.
https://www.wunc.org/politics/2023-05-17/an-exchange-between-lawmakers-left-a-black-legislator-defending-his-educational-background
"I understand you went to the public school and then you went to Harvard, Harvard Law," McNeely says. "My question I guess, is would you have been able to maybe achieve this if you were not an athlete or a minority, or any of these things, but you were a student trapped in a school that the slowest — you know in the wild we'll say the slowest gazelle does not survive. But yet the herd moves at that pace. So the brightest child sometimes is held back."
Separate from any issues with the national test, why can’t a state concerned about familiarity with local law require passing both the national test and a local one on local law? Why must it pick one or the other?
That is indeed how it generally works, if you go to the UBE website.
Toughest Exam to become an M.D. is "Step 1" (Used to be called the "National Board of Medical Examiners Exam" (NBME) at some point became the "US Medical Licensing Exam" (USMLE) when I took it in 1985 it was a 2 day test ( or 1 really long day? it was 1985, I don't remember) separate scores for Anatomy/Biochemisty/Physiology/Microbiology/Pathology/Behavorial Science
taken at the end of your 2d year, fail, and you could take it again in a few months, delaying the start of your 3rd year, fail it twice, you did second year again, fail it again, try Law School.
had a failure rate of 10% and these were peoples who managed to get into Med School (and the "Black" Schools didn't require their peoples to take it, oh, they could take it, and they'd trumpet the top scores (Ben Carson) but wasn't required to advance or they'd lose half the class,
anyway, one of the questions was a CT Scan with an arrow pointing at the Spleen.
And you were asked which organ the arrow was pointing at.
OK, rest of the exam was hard as shit, relevant questions like,
"Which of the following catalyzes the reversible degradation of 2-Phosphoglycerate to Phosphophenolpyruvate"
and "Who gives a Fuck?" wasn't one of the options,
Frank M.D. (Mentally Deranged)
“Alas, my concerns did not prevail.”
A fitting epithet for the bulk of the author’s entire professional career.
And who knows, perhaps a fitting epitaph too?
... Blackman, you are literally a law professor. If you think Texas law is important for your students, teach it. If you think other professors at your school need to include it more, then talk to them, talk to your chair or dean or head or whatever.
Just because your students are expected to take a specific test after they graduate doesn't mean you have to restrict your classes to topics on that test.
Can someone order Josh a copy of Joan Howarth's book Shaping the Bar: The Future of Attorney Licensing? Law school professors and deans need to better understand the history of attorney licensing, why the current system is failing, and how it can be improved.
The only way to pass more incompetent people is to lower the bar to let less qualified people over it. You dont need a degree in psychometrics to understand that.
Actually, that conclusion does necessarily follow. Any time you put any consideration ahead of merit, you lose merit. And here they're putting multiple considerations ahead of merit.
And, besides, that's the track record for these sorts of actions. They ALWAYS water down actually being good at the job in order to hit the quotas. Downgrade objective rankings that are hard to manipulate in favor of subjective ones they can tweak to hit their numbers.
And, yeah, you can see it in the changes to the exam, rendering large parts of the previous content 'optional'. They're lowering the bar so that more will make it over, so that they can drive the composition of the bar by controlling admissions to the schools, without having to worry about the people passing the test not being exactly proportional to the people they admitted on the front end.
They ALWAYS water down actually being good at the job in order to hit the quotas.
If you read the OP, you will see zero sign they're watering anything down. The headline is unsupported by the text.
you can see it in the changes to the exam, rendering large parts of the previous content ‘optional’.
How does that water the exam down, though? Less breadth does not mean less difficulty. Stat bars often don't require Family Law nor Wills and Trusts as part of their required subjects.
Not that you know. You're saying stuff you don't know about again.
What is your opinion concerning judges who hire solely Federalist Society members (perhaps ideally, for some, outright bigots) for taxpayer-funded clerk positions?
Take a course in basic statistics sometime.
The only way to increase the minority pass rate is to lower the standard.
"Two of the organization's stated aims are to 'work toward greater equity' by 'eliminat[ing] any aspects of our exams that could contribute to performance disparities' and to 'promote greater diversity and inclusion in the legal profession.'"
Agreed, not requiring Family Law or Wills and Trusts as part of their required subjects is irrelevant to those two "aims". So what do YOU think the test designers will do to reach them?
Who sets the pass rate for the UBE?
You don't know shit about the bar exam, standardized tests, or statistics.
Whatever your background is, this ain't it.
"making sure you advertise or have recruitment efforts aimed at HBCUs."
Huh? If HBCUs aren't where you are most likely to find the best candidates, then of course you will have loss of merit.
But the claim doesn't support your point anyway.
"Also, when orchestras started to have blind auditions and more women were chosen. "
Funny you'd mention blind auditions.
Blind auditions are a great example of meritocracy, which is why they're currently under attack.
It turns out that this is another example of junk science that people believe because it confirms their narrative.
Actually, it is and I do.
The only way to increase the minority pass rate is to lower the standard.
Not if you think this.
If there is, for whatever reason, a disparity in the distribution of "merit", then of course it does. If the world's three best violinists are white, then you can't have a racially diverse group of the world's best three violinists.
Almost certainly the increase attributed to that is simply due to an increase in the amount of female candidates, as they are currently attacking blind auditions.
If your goal is to increase merit, then sure, you recruit at HBCUs if there's an overlooked pool of merit there. If your goal is to increase diversity, you recruit there whether there's an overlooked pool of merit there or not.
The only way to increase the minority pass rate at that end of the educational process is to lower the standard. Because the results of the education are already there, it's too late to improve them.
If you want to start at the K-12 end, and wait 16-20 years for the pass rate to go up, you could increase the minority pass rate without screwing with the test.
Infra doesn't support your claim.
Huh? It seems that you missed the point of my comment, which was that your claim about blind orchestras, whatever point you were making notwithstanding, was junk science.
Which is correct. Unless your other considerations happen to align with merit, in which case you may as well attempt to maximize merit, or if attempting to maximize your other factors really a better way at getting to merit than an attempt to maximize merit. Why is this hard?
How do you know if there is an overlooked pool at HBCU's unless you actually go there and find out?
You assume an unbiased test.
One of the fundamentals of standardized tests is you cannot assume that. It is a continual process of improvement, just to keep things standardized.
It’s not your biz. It’s not mine, but Ive done some reading and talked to colleagues and a podcast etc.
Ed has no such excuse.
What is all this nonsense?
If you just want to have a higher pass rate all you have to do is lower the passing score. Easy-peasy. A snap of the fingers.
You don't need all this business about NBCE and UBE and state law and whatnot. From which I conclude that there are other objectives here.
Oh, and Blackman is an idiot who, based on his own post, is making a lot of unfounded assumptions as to what's going on.
Yes, Sarcastr0, lacking any evidence the test is biased, I assume an unbiased test.
Assuming any test outcome you don't like is a result of a biased test is really just a result of refusing to face reality: Some groups actually perform differently on fair tests.
Your thesis is the one that contains an assumption.
I’m pointing out that this assumption is unsupported.
Don’t shift the burden.
I do indeed think that when blacks do worse on tests we should check for bias first. I also think there are lots of confounding variables to check as well. Standardizing a test is a hard thing to do, in theory and in practice. That is what I believe.
You read a shitty book and have already decided blacks are inherently worse at test taking.
Your thesis also contains an assumption, Sarcastro.
"I do indeed think that when blacks do worse on tests we should check for bias first."
Sure, but that's not what's being advocated. What's being advocated is that we eliminate that portion of the test whether it's biased or not, or whether it's necessary or not.
"I do indeed think that when blacks do worse on tests we should check for bias first."
Blacks do worse on tests. E.g., IQ tests. Decades of attempts to "fix" this by "removing bias" have failed. But you ignore this without any basis for doing so because you wish it weren't true. So, no, we are well past the point where "checking for bias" on longstanding much-checked tests is the rational response.
People who attend conservative-controlled, -operated, and -attended colleges perform poorly on tests, too.
One more explanation of the culture war’s trajectory
Carry on, clingers.
The orchestra blind auditions were quite clearly aimed at replacing discrimination with pure merit, by hiding from the judges everything but merit.
You can reduce disparities by going meritocratic, but only if the disparities are a result of ignoring merit in the first place. Not if they're a result of merit actually being distributed in a manner you happen to not like.
"So it was pretty stupid when you said *any* effort to reduce disparities undercuts merit then..."
No, it was pretty stupid when you missed a caveat that's so obvious it goes without saying.
Huh? You're answering your own question.
Check the SAT and ACT scores of students attending. Pretty easy.
There is no untapped pool of merit at HBCU's. The pool of talented blacks has long since been pumped so empty that what you're sucking in is mud.
"Don’t confuse that with you not getting the point."
I'm not.
Btett: "“Any time you put any consideration ahead of merit, you lose merit.”
You: "So it was pretty stupid when you said *any* effort to reduce disparities undercuts merit then"
Where did he say that?
"What are you, Brett’s sloppy extremist hyperbole spinner? Unfortunately for your efforts here Brett said it more than once!"
Sigh. Yes, if people have put racial homogeneity ahead of merit, then reducing racial homogeneity can increase merit. But this obvious caveat doesn't support your broader point.
Clingers don’t like to talk about that.
What is your opinion of the quality of students who attend backwater religious schools?
Attending which schools?
Berkeley, Yale, Wellesley, Michigan, Harvard, Sarah Lawrence, Oberlin, Penn, Princeton, Pitt, Boston, Columbia, and NYU . . . or Ave Maria, Wheaton, Franciscan, Ouachita Baptist, Regent, Liberty, Idaho, Wyoming, Mississippi, Cedarbrook, West Virginia, and South Texas College Houston Texas?
Meanwhile you bootlick and worship elites who, empirically, the furthest from competence one can be.
See 15 years,$100B, and zero miles of working high speed rail.
Or, spending $7T each year while simultaneously crying that they don't have a one-time $100B to solve worldwide hunger ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Or spending $4T over 20 years to get your shit kicked in by cave dwelling, spear chucking, pederasts. And leaving them $100B in modern weapons and piles of dead US soldiers.
No, it isn't. Few people indeed have participated in one, but the word? It's right there in the unabridged dictionary I read as a kid, next to the encyclopedia I read from front to back. Is your definition of "culturally narrow and privileged" having actually used a dictionary as something besides a doorstop?
Look, if you eliminate from a vocabulary test every word that is only used by a relatively narrow segment of society, you've reduced it to a test of Basic English, not a vocabulary test. Do you just not understand the concept of "vocabulary test"? That you do well on one by knowing a lot of words you wouldn't use in your day to day life?
That being familiar with words you probably don't use every day is the POINT?
You have a sample size of one. It’s insane you can’t see that,
It's insane that you can't admit the point of vocabulary tests is to see if your vocabulary is actually larger than is necessary to just barely get by locally. That knowing words that aren't part of your narrow slice of the larger culture is the POINT.
Quit changing the scope. Your argument has become that you know the word so it’s a useful word.
As I said, sample size of you knowing the word is not a good metric.
Are you under the impression that's a good excuse for testing even fewer aspects?
No, my argument is that the very purpose of a vocabulary test is to see how much further beyond the absolute minimum vocabulary you've gone. If you omit words because some group somewhere might not be using them, you're not doing a vocabulary test anymore!
You can't test math skills and distinguish the higher performing people if you only ask questions about basic addition and subtraction.
You can't test physical fitness if you limit the challenge to walking at a shuffle and lifting a sheet of paper.
And you can't test vocabularies if you limit yourself to words everybody probably knows!
Not all esoteric words are esoteric in the same way. I don’t know how many times I can repeat this.
How about this:
If we tested how well you knew drip or based or NoFo or some banking acronyms or shorthand West Wing references that would be perhaps not the best tests of your breadth of verbal knowledge. It would more be a test of your background
Yes. Triage is a legit thing to do.
Also, plenty of states skip out on family and wills and have for a long time. This is not as significant as Blackman thinks it is. Certainly it is irrelevant to the tests difficulty since that is not set by the exam but by the passing score.
Blackman didn’t tell you the context and history and you fell for it. More shame him than you.
I never took a family law course. My first-year property professor largely ignored estates and trusts; I never took the elective course.
I have never prepared a will (although I have been named executor) or created a trust. My experience in family court was limited to representation of children as conflict counsel (cases in which children and youth services lawyers were conflicted consequent to previous representation of the parents).
I sense family law and estates and trusts are no longer (if they ever were) core areas of study for a law student or practice for many and perhaps most lawyers.
What you're calling "triage" is literally dumbing down the test. The OP's exact point is that, the schools teach to the test, take stuff out of the test, and the schools remove it from their general curriculum.
"Is that what he’s saying..."
Huh? No, I didn't say that that was what he was saying. But he's not saying what you guys claim he's saying, either.
But in any event, if in a given case racial disparities are cause by a disparity in the choices individuals make, such that members of one race choose to put less effort into a particular task than members of another race, then why should we address that?
It's just what the Volokh Conspiracy has become.
And the reason every Conspirator who continues to associate with this blog should be ashamed.
Tenure gives them courage, I guess.
The test is not dumber.
They reduced the range of topics you need to be familiar with to pass, that's "dumber".
The threshold is set by the states. That determines how hard it is to pass.
And the topics are skipped by plenty of states. Have been for decades at least.
You are uninformed, and so outcome oriented you refuse to listen.