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Ninth Circuit Rules Berkeley Gas Hookup Ban Is Preempted
A local California ordinance prohibiting natural gas hookups in new construction conflicts with federal law according to a federal appellate court.
Yesterday a unanimous panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit concluded that a Berkeley, California ordinance prohibiting the installation of natural gas piping in newly constructed buildings is preempted by the federal Energy Policy and Conservation Act (EPCA). The opinion by Judge Bumatay in California Restaurant Association v. City of Berkeley was joined by Judges O'Scannlain and Baker, each of whom also wrote a separate concurrence.
Here is how Judge Bumatay summarizes the opinion:
By completely prohibiting the installation of natural gas piping within newly constructed buildings, the City of Berkeley has waded into a domain preempted by Congress. The Energy Policy and Conservation Act ("EPCA"), 42 U.S.C. § 6297(c), expressly preempts State and local regulations concerning the energy use of many natural gas appliances, including those used in household and restaurant kitchens. Instead of directly banning those appliances in new buildings, Berkeley took a more circuitous route to the same result. It enacted a building code that prohibits natural gas piping into those buildings, rendering the gas appliances useless.
The California Restaurant Association, whose members include restaurateurs and chefs, challenged Berkeley's regulation, raising an EPCA preemption claim. The district court dismissed the suit. In doing so, it limited the Act's preemptive scope to ordinances that facially or directly regulate covered appliances. But such limits do not appear in EPCA's text. By its plain text and structure, EPCA's preemption provision encompasses building codes that regulate natural gas use by covered products. And by preventing such appliances from using natural gas, the new Berkeley building code does exactly that.
We thus conclude that EPCA preempts Berkeley's building code's effect against covered products and reverse.
Judge Bumatay's opinion concludes that the the plain text of EPCA preempts the ordinance, and thus does not rely upon any form of implied or conflict preemption.
From his discussion:
EPCA's preemption clause establishes that, once a federal energy conservation standard becomes effective for a covered product, "no State regulation concerning the energy efficiency, energy use, or water use of such covered product shall be effective with respect to such product," unless the regulation meets one of several categories not relevant here. 42 U.S.C. § 6297(c). For our purposes, we need to determine what constitutes a "regulation concerning the . . . energy use" of a covered product. . . .
by its plain language, EPCA preempts Berkeley's regulation here because it prohibits the installation of necessary natural gas infrastructure on premises where covered natural gas appliances are used.
Berkeley's main contention is that its Ordinance doesn't regulate "energy use" because it bans natural gas rather than prescribes an affirmative "quantity of energy." While Berkeley concedes that a prohibition on natural gas infrastructure reduces the energy consumed by natural gas appliances in new buildings to "zero," it argues that "zero" is not a "quantity" and so the Ordinance is not an "energy use" regulation. But that defies the ordinary meaning of "quantity." In context, "quantity" means "a property or attribute that can be expressed in numerical terms." Oxford English Dictionary Online (2022). And it is well accepted in ordinary usage that "zero" is a "quantity." . . .
a regulation that imposes a total ban on natural gas is not exempt from EPCA just because it lowers the "quantity of energy" consumed to "zero." In other words, a regulation on "energy use" fairly encompasses an ordinance that effectively eliminates the "use" of an energy source. As the Court said long ago, a regulation may "assume the form of [a] prohibition." Champion v. Ames, 188 U.S. 321, 328 (1903). . . .
by enacting EPCA, Congress ensured that States and localities could not prevent consumers from using covered products in their homes, kitchens, and businesses. So EPCA preemption extends to regulations that address the products themselves and the onsite infrastructure for their use of natural gas. . . .
States and localities can't skirt the text of broad preemption provisions by doing indirectly what Congress says they can't do directly. EPCA would no doubt preempt an ordinance that directly prohibits the use of covered natural gas appliances in new buildings. So Berkeley can't evade preemption by merely moving up one step in the energy chain and banning natural gas piping within those buildings. Otherwise, the ability to use covered products is "meaningless" if consumers can't access the natural gas available to them within the City of Berkeley.
Judge O'Scannlain concurs, but expresses some misgivings about the precedents that (he believes) compel the result in this case.
I agree that EPCA preempts the Ordinance. But I only reach that conclusion because, under Ninth Circuit precedent, I believe I am bound to hold that the presumption against preemption does not apply to the express-preemption provision before us today. That conclusion is not obvious or easy. In my view, this issue presents a challenging question in a deeply troubled area of law—namely, which of the apparently conflicting lines of cases we should follow in applying the presumption against preemption in expresspreemption cases.
His concurrence concludes with a plea for greater clarity on preemption from the Supreme Court:
We are duty-bound to apply binding precedents of the Supreme Court and the Ninth Circuit. Alas, those precedents "are not always clear, consistent, or coherent." Separation of Church & State Comm. v. City of Eugene of Lane Cnty., State of Or., 93 F.3d 617, 627 (9th Cir. 1996) (O'Scannlain, J., concurring). Here, I believe I am bound by our post-Franklin precedents to hold that the presumption is inapplicable to the express-preemption provision before us today. And for that reason, I join the panel's opinion. But I remain concerned that this area of law is troubling and confused, with tensions in the Supreme Court's precedents, splits in the circuits, and important practical questions unanswered. Greater clarity and further guidance from the Court on how to navigate preemption doctrine after Franklin would be most welcome.
Judge Baker, a judge on the Court of International Trade sitting by designation, also concurred with a detailed discussion of why he believes the Berkeley ordinance "invades the core area" preempted by EPCA. His concurrence concludes:
The Berkeley Ordinance—a building code—prohibits the customer-owned piping that receives gas distributed by the utility at the meter, and scrupulously avoids touching on infrastructure owned by the utility, including the meter or the service pipe connecting the meter to the gas distribution main. And although EPCA has little, if anything, to say about a state or local government's regulation of a utility's distribution of natural gas to customers, it has everything to say about "State or local building code[s] for new construction concerning the . . . energy use of . . . covered product[s] . . . ." 42 U.S.C. § 6297(f)(3). "[R]egulation[s] or other requirement[s]" in such codes are preempted unless they "compl[y] with all of" various specified conditions. See id. § 6297(f)(3)(A)–(G). And it's undisputed the Ordinance does not do so.
Thus, far from having only "a tenuous, remote, or peripheral connection," N.Y. State Conf. of Blue Cross & Blue Shield Plans v. Travelers Ins. Co., 514 U.S. 645, 661 (1995), to the subject matter preempted by EPCA, the Berkeley Ordinance cuts to the heart of what Congress sought to prevent—state and local manipulation of building codes for new construction to regulate the natural gas consumption of covered products when gas service is otherwise available to premises where such products are used. And as the panel explains, because EPCA would unquestionably preempt a building code that prohibited the attachment of covered appliances to the owner's piping that receives gas at the utility's service delivery point, it necessarily also preempts a building code that instead bans that piping to evade preemption. I therefore join the panel opinion in full.
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It's Clean!, It's Natural! We've got like 500 years of "reserves" (Yeah, right, multiply by 10, we were supposed to "run out of oil" in the early 20th Century, you know, all those New-Fangled "Horseless Carriages")
OTOH if California wants to burn their hand in the Natural Gas Flame, more "power" to them, just more Gas for the rest of us.
Frank
Excellent.
I just bought a new house last year, and natural gas was a big plus, stove, hot water heater, dryer, and backyard grill hookups. But no heat, but I live in a very warm climate so heat pump makes more sense for that.
Why do progressives want to make everyone’s decisions for them?
Someone could easily convert the house to all electric, if that’s their personal preference.
If any of the appliances are old, you should update them before Democrats are able to make replacements unavailable.
"Why do progressives want to make everyone’s decisions for them?"
I'm glad you enjoy your new home with its gas appliances. I've had gas heating and cooking in every home I've owned throughout my life. (Though I strongly prefer electric ovens since natural gas is loaded with moisture that can affect the way food crisps and browns.)
However, your statement regarding "progressives" is out-of-place here. Even from a purely libertarian perspective, there are clear externalities as play in the mining and consumption of natural gas. It's like peeing in a public pool--you make the choice to piss in everyone's pool and then complain about how new rules to prohibit this take away your choice. Or, for that matter, conservative laws that take away a woman's choice over her own health or the choices people make when they choose whether or not to wear a dress and wig to the club, or what books they can find in the library.
Of course, you know this and you wrote what you wrote regardless.
“Even from a purely libertarian perspective, there are clear externalities as play in the mining and consumption of natural gas.”
What, are we pretending that unicorn farts don’t have externalities?
Incidentally, You're confusing land subsidence and sea rising.
No, you're just ignoring that fact that sea-rise + land subsidence means double the trouble.
The subsidence is most of it, and that's going to continue even if Berkeley did reduce global CO2 output by an infinitesimal fraction of a percent.
Ok, an admission that climate change is real, caused by CO2 emissions and connected to rising sea levels! Progress!
We'd better hope that the rate of sea level rise doesn't increase as the world gets hotter and the ice caps melt.
Oops.
The externalities around natural gas are massively exaggerated. It’s an extremely clean fuel and as I said, is overwhelmingly responsible for the reduction in USA carbon emissions in the last couple of decades. It’s literally the second cleanest energy source we’ve got that is scalable nationally and is dependable.
And it’s not mined. You might want to learn what you’re talking about before you talk.
It’s a fossil fuel and emits C02. It’s greenwashing.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2011/04/15/195732/just-how-green-is-natural-gas/
'Just How Green Is Natural Gas?
Not green at all, reports a study suggesting that the methane released by fracking and drilling makes it worse than coal.'
“Worse than coal”. Does it hurt you to use your brain? That conclusion is fucking laughable.
Please explain, genius, how US emissions dropped during a period where coal went from 50% of power generation to 19% and natural gas increased from 10% to 40%. Explain to us how that math works.
‘When burned to generate electricity, natural gas emits roughly half as much carbon dioxide per megawatt-hour as coal. But over its life cycle, natural gas could result in far more greenhouse-gas emissions, whether through intentional venting, equipment leaks, or fracking. And the leaks would consist of methane, which is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.’
I dunno, seems pretty clear to me.
I would say the bulk of the reductions are from efficencies. Per capita, the US is still the biggest emitter in the world. Which is to say, even if you atrribute the entire reduction to the use of natural gas, it's still nowhere near enough.
We replaced 30% of our power generation with what you call a dirtier fuel (which nobody serious agrees with, FWIW) and vague “efficiencies” were enough to overcome that plus an additional 20%? That’s fairy tale stuff.
You’re just pulling stuff out of your ass.
And you’re giving zero shits about the hardship that your solutions are and will continue to pound actual people with. Fuck all those guys, amiright?
Oh, you didn’t read the report, ok. You get that methane is actually worse than CO2, right? That’s why everyone’s concerned about the cows and Siberia.
Yeah, people who decided fossil fuel profits were more important than the most vulnerable people in the world being subjected to the effects of climate chaos don’t get to pontificate about the effects of changes that have to be made fast now because the need to start slow two decades ago was ignored or derided. You’ve been saying fuck those guys louder and longer.
"And it’s not mined."
If you dig into the earth to extract substances, it's mining. That we have other names for extracting different substances from the earth doesn't make it not "mining." And really, resorting to pedantry like you have doesn't improve your uninformed argument.
Natural gas extraction (mining, whatever) results in the release of methane into the atmosphere. If you limit your evaluation of the fuel to just the final step of burning it for energy, you're bound to come to inaccurate conclusions. It's like pretending oil spills aren't part of the environmental impact of gasoline.
There's clear externalities in all energy use.
Natural gas extraction uses a much smaller footprint to extract and produce than any other energy source.
Solar cells are mainly produced in China because the energy cost
of manufacturing is almost prohibitive using any other source than cheap coal.
And the mines needed for the metals and minerals to produce windmills, and solar panels take up much more space and scar the landscape much more than a drill pad for a natural gas well. Plus when the well is dry restoring the landscape in a couple of hundred square feet is cheap and easy compared to a copper iron or lithium mine which can be square miles.
Methane isn't toxic unless you're in a cloud of it, unlike lithium for batteries, and metals for solar cells. And it's also much smaller than the footprint for hydroelectric.
Yeah, I would like to see a true accounting of the true externalities of different energy sources that counts strip mined acreage, dead birds, land filled windmills and solar cells with a only 20 year life compared to CH4, that as you mention produces 2 H2O molecules for every CO2.
Is that the subject of today's joint meeting of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management and Right-Wingers For Big-Government Micromanagement of Ladyparts Clinics?
'Why do progressives want to make everyone’s decisions for them?'
Whole lot of decisions have baked in a whole lot of consequences for people who had no say in those decisions. Pretending it isn't happening won't mean squat.
Yeah, my neighbor didn't ask me before he bought a dog, or bought his son a car.
They definitely have an impact on me way over what the impact of him having a gas stove is, but that don't mean I have any say in his decisions.
Americans in the ninth circuit are temporarily a little safer from Democrats' attempts to make their lives worse in this particular way.
The 9th is not what it was*. There are nearly as many GOP appointed judges as Dems, so there's reasonable odds - maybe 40% - of drawing a conservative panel.
In this case there were two Trump judges and one Coolidge.
* if you're looking for a good solid party line lefty appeals court, then these days its either the 4th or the DC circuit.
As much as I'd love him in the White House today, Coolidge was President a century ago...
I have a great fondness for Coolidge since I believe it was during his administration that someone on this blog last "got" one of my jokes.
Coolidge left office in 1929. If he appointed a 13 year old prodigy, that judge would be 106. Theoretically possible, I suppose.
I'm conflicted.
On the one hand, the Berkeley ban is monstrously bad policy, stupid on a scale that takes real work to achieve.
On the other hand, the idea that the federal government has any authority to preempt it is an obnoxious perversion of our constitutional structure.
If only they could both lose...
Well we lost that battle with Willard, lost it again with Raich. And at least Natural Gas in California actually is interstate commerce, same with appliances.
Since we lost the big ones decades ago, might as well get a couple of wins on the periphery, and make them live by their own rules.
There's some solace the growth in federal power, driven by the same folks who created this ban, are now bitten by it.
States as 50 experiments is loved, or hated, by both sides, depending on the issue.
Berkeley is an ocean-front city at risk of flooding from sea level rise. It's populated by a largely liberal electorate and is home to one of the best universities on the planet with a significant reputation for scientific discovery and progress. They think this is a good idea. You think it is "stupid on a scale that takes real work to achieve." They've shown their work. Can you show yours?
Where did they show that?
UC Berkeley has over 50 faculty members from various schools and departments listing research on climate change across numerous disciplines. Research is published.
One may not agree with the research, but calling a decision based on that and similar research “stupid on a scale that takes real work to achieve” is a pretty strong assertion for someone with no apparent expertise and who offers no argument for why it is “stupid.”
Let’s examine that ocean front city thing a little bit, cause it’s ridiculous. First of all the original shoreline in Berkeley, on the bay not the ocean, was 2nd Street and that’s 1000′ inland from the current shore, so that 1000′ is stolen from Gaia and she has every right to take it back. Second, 2nd Street the original shoreline is 15′ elevation. SF Bay tidal gauges show a 64mm per CENTURY trend. So that is going to be 475 years before even 1 foot of that 15 foot elevation is lost to sea level rise, that has been rising since the end of the last ice age.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329702234_San_Francisco_Bay_Tidal_Datums_and_Extreme_Tides_Study_Final_Report
I know Berkeley well. I remember the time I and a couple of friends went to a frat party in Berkeley in the mid 70’s. We ended up playing hide and go seek in a sculpture garden about midnight. One friend had dropped acid, he “hid” by hitchhiking to Santa Cruz. Showed up back in the north bay a few days later and told us the whole story.
I met a girl went to Berkeley High School in SF when I was 22, I thought it was hilarious she got Geronimo's birthday off. She moved in with me a week after she turned 17. We ended up having 3 kids and were married 34 years, and that doesn't count the 6 years we lived together first.
Berkeley is a wild city.
While I don't support Berkeley banning gas, I think they should have that ability. I don't see Congress having the ability to pre-empt this. If the interstate commerce clause is still being used for this, then hopefully the Democrats will start to want to reigned in.
Maybe Berkeley will appeal. A Supreme Court ruling on these issues has more potential to help Americans than hurt us.
From the OP:
EPCA's preemption clause establishes that, once a federal energy conservation standard becomes effective for a covered product, "no State regulation concerning the energy efficiency, energy use, or water use of such covered product shall be effective with respect to such product," unless the regulation meets one of several categories not relevant here.
That of course has no bearing on what BillyG said.
It's obvious that this Court failed to take into proper account the feelings of the Berkeley officials who passed this ordnance. Also, did anyone think about the children?
Suck it Climate Fascists!
How many out there think this will survive en banc review?
If the text of the statute is as clear as the panel claims, an en banc court is not going to want to tee up the issue for the Supreme Court to impose nationwide.
Same strategy was used by DC when they had concealed carry imposed on them. They were seething but didn’t want to take down NY, NJ, MD etc., with them.
Worked for a while.
The 9th en banc went for broke on Young v Hawaii, but Bruen didn’t leave that intact for as long as they would have liked.
It should as this actually IS interstate commerce.
No, it's not.
Where'd the gas come from?
California produces oil, but very little gas, almost all their gas comes from Texas and New Mexico.
I can't think of a definition of interstate commerce that would exclude the 90% of California gas that comes from outside the state.
You're not trying very hard, then. The sane definition before Wickard would have done so without breaking into a sweat.
Like hell it is.
Sure, the gas and appliances are 'moving in' interstate commerce. But whether or not you can install one in your house isn't 'commerce', let alone interstate. It's a local building regulation.
So you're saying Berkeley couldn't ban the sale of the appliances. I would be free to buy one, just forbidden to connect it?
Yup.
Katzenbach v. McClung -- it wasn't just that Black customers could buy ribs but they could eat them in the dining room.
How's this different?
People who cook with gas not being a 'protected class', for starters.
To be a little less flippant, I’m not saying that this insane ruling doesn’t stand a decent chance of being upheld under current commerce clause jurisprudence. Of course it does: Current commerce clause jurisprudence has all but finished the task of converting a deliberately limited power to regulate commerce across specified borders into a general power to regulate.
We’re not required to pretend that local building codes are interstate commerce, just because the Supreme court decides to. We actually are entitled to notice that current jurisprudence is bullshit.
You're not coming after Wickard, you're coming after McCulloch.
Good luck with that.
You know, you were always spouting nonsense most of the time, but you used to do a better job of making it seem vaguely plausible. This has nothing at all to do with whether Congress can establish a bank.
Setting aside that I think the Berkeley law is irredeemably stupid, it is a local building code, NOT in any way, shape, or form a regulation of interstate commerce. You can still buy the appliances, the building is simply forbidden to have a hookup for them. You want to stack them in your spare bedroom? Have at it.
A prohibition on any and all practical use of a tool is a de facto prohibition on purchase.
This has nothing at all to do with whether Congress can establish a bank.
FFS, man, that's not nearly what McCulloch stands for, and you know this.
This is about whether local building codes can be preempted by a federal law. How do you shoehorn that into McCulloch? I don't see it.
Necessary and proper.
Maybe you legit weren't tracking. In which case I came in a bit too hot, and apologize.
Oh, right, "necessary and proper" actually meaning "convenient and, eh, whatever".
As I said, if you want to come at a foundational 1819 case as not really the law, and actually uncabined tyranny, that's a take you can have.
But you're not going to find many takers outside of some of the more fringy people around here.
It can not be "proper" to claim that it is "necessary" to convert the interstate commerce power into a general police power. So give it up, we won't be bullied into pretending that it was legit.
I agree; I also don't think the federal government has general police power.
There is a very large middle between the size of federal government you think is good, and a general police power.
"There is a very large middle between the size of federal government you think is good, and a general police power."
That's quite true, but there's practically no space at all between the size of the federal government we have now and a general police power.
McCulloch is one of those neat post-hoc rationalizations that Sarcastro and his predecessors are so fond of. It is not so much about the establishment of a bank as the federal governments right to do so. With a little herp and a little derp, one concludes that the 10th amendment doesn't exist and that the words "necessary" and "proper" give the federal government the right to do damn well anything it choses. After all, anything they dream up can be "necessary and proper" just like absolutely any commerce must be interstate commerce.
Fundamentally it points out that governing with folks who can turn on a dime and redefine "woman" as soon it is politically useful is impossible for all practical purposes.
At this point in history, arguing about McCullough and Wickard is just so much mental masturbation. I enjoyed discussing these concepts in law school as much as the next guy, but there is absolutely no way that they will get rolled back in any material way. It is un-possible to dismantle the modern administrative state.
It is also a bit intellectually dishonest, because had the supreme court struck down all those New Deal programs back in the 1930s and '40s under a "correct" reading of the Commerce Clause, I have little doubt that Roosevelt would have been able to get constitutional amendments passed to enable him, and that might well have led to a structure worse than what we have now.
My concern here isn't to get them rolled back, I fully agree that the odds of that happening are negligible.
Rather, I want living constitutionalism discredited. I want it clearly understood what was done to the Constitution, and why it happened. So that when the Constitution finally falls, and is replaced, its replacement might last a while, rather than instantly falling to the same tactics.
If we accept Wickard as legitimate, rather than just impossible to undo as a practical matter, we legitimize doing the same to the next constitution, which will fall so fast we'll never have a chance to see if it would have worked.
You can also legislate that pi is 3 all you want. You can even send the local police or FBI to harass those who say pi is not 3. What you cannot do is make pi really 3. You can use newspeak all you like, but the number of fingers being held up "isn't" what the party says it is. It is what reality dictates. It might be impossible to roll back the administrative state, but I don't have to lower myself to the level believing in what is politically convenient.
If Roosevelt would have revised the constitution, so be it. At least it would have been more honest. I am reminded of a line from the HBO miniseries Chernobyl: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid".
It's a cancer. What starts with rationalizations about "necessary and proper" soon metastasizes to "I have redefined a number of words to push my agenda" and ends with "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength". I might not be able to do anything about it, but I certainly don't have to be complicit.
@Brett -- there aint gonna be a "next" constitution, so we need to muddle through with what we have.
@Artifex -- the law is not some brooding omnipresence in the sky. People often forget that having a point be settled one way or the other is often just as, if not more, important than having it be settled "correctly." And my favorite Chernobyl line was when Stellan Skarsgard says something to the effect of, "I assumed it was not a very serious problem, because they sent me to handle it."
Yeah you can still use them without gas hookups. It's a quick conversion to make gas appliances run on propane, you just need smaller jets because propane is higher pressure out of a 11 inch water column regulator that gas lines.
Then just hook up a 5 gallon tank, it'll last about a month on a gas stove.
The US has been among the best in the world as to reduction in carbon emissions over the last 15 - 20 years.
Trying to eliminate the usage of the energy source that drive the vast majority of that success while simultaneously shutting down your primary carbon-free energy source - with no functional replacement available for either - is terminally stupid.
Unfortunately that’s the nature of our governance in the midst of a ridiculous panic - all emotion and virtue signaling and no rational planning or thought.
"...while simultaneously shutting down your primary carbon-free energy source..."
What source is that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_Power_Plant
You argument is basically that the US is the least-worst failure at meeting required climate targets and, as such, doesn't need to continuing being "the best in the world as to reduction." You do know we aren't being graded on a curve here, right? If the target isn't met, nations with lots of low-lying coastline are going to experience significant Dust-bowl level climate migration along with all the economic hardship that comes with it.
Eliminating the vast majority of fossil fuel consumption is the solution. Stopping the expansion of fossil fuel consumption is the very least we can do. No new infrastructure doesn't prevent existing infrastructure and customers from consuming natural gas. As for "shutting down your primary carbon-free energy source," I assume you're referring to the nuclear power plant that is on an earthquake fault and was built below spec and has serious risks of mechanical failure? That one? The one the governor of California is trying to repair and keep? Is that the one we're trying to eliminate by funding repairs? What a strange way to eliminate a nuclear power plant!
There are plenty of functional replacements for either and both, though. The state has significant geothermal resources, the perfect topography for pumped hydro batteries, and a shit-tonne of sun and wind for solar power.
"There are plenty of functional replacements for either and both, though. The state has significant geothermal resources, the perfect topography for pumped hydro batteries, and a shit-tonne of sun and wind for solar power."
At what cost and over how much time?
Depends how much longer you and your suicide cult keep working to delay them.
You’re ate up with climate panic - dare I say - misinformation. There is no scalable and dependable source for clean energy to replace natural gas other than nukes.
The amazing clean power of nuclear energy has been around since the second world war, and never once threatened to take over as a viable alternative to fossil fuels despite billions in developing it as a technology and billions in subsidies to support the power stations. Also, given the various leaks and explosions and meltdowns in reactors all over the world, not all that clean. So not sure you're right about that.
Tell me you've never been to France without telling me you've never been to France.
It's grid is 71% nuclear and has been stable for decades.
That’s a pretty indefensible statement. Hydroelectric dams are scalable and dependable and function across the state already. Geothermal is scalable and dependable across the state of California given our particular geography and there are advances that make old oil wells, which the state has plenty, candidates for geothermal. Finally, with pumped hydro batteries (aka: hydroelectric), solar and wind power are also dependable. And that’s not even taking conventional battery technology into consideration for which California has several known lithium resources if required.
Repeating yourself does not make your statements any truer.
'a ridiculous panic'
Sensible centrist position - not quite denying climate change, just steadfastly opposed to all measures to deal with it.
Natural gas and nuclear, with a dab of renewable, is the way to deal with it. You’re the one supporting solutions that will fail.
Natural gas isn't clean, and, while I'm not opposed to it, I'm also not sure nuclear is really viable. Solutions that cause the exact same problem and solutions that can't be made to work aren't solutions at all.
And yet both of these sources are more expensive that wind and solar and one of these sources directly contributes to global warming through the release of methane and CO2.
Does this ruling apply outside the 9th Circuit jurisdiction? Sounds like it does since banning gas hookups is not allowed based on a law passed by Congress. Also, I can’t tell if this ruling would also invalidate bans on gas appliances. Whatever it means, the anti-gas cult won’t stop until they get their way.
This is not a national injunction.
Two cases to compare, to inform the debate:
1. Burn natural gas in a home kitchen using a well-designed gas range.
2. Burn natural gas in a utility plant, to make electricity, to use in a kitchen equipped with a well-designed electric induction range.
I have no idea which would prove the more efficient way to use natural gas for cooking. I do know that my induction range boils water a lot faster than any gas range I ever had, without any need to upgrade the electrical service. It also supplies controlled low-level heat better than gas.
What to make of that in terms of electrical efficiency and pollution implications I leave to the engineers to tell me.
I live off the grid in the summertime, so I’m all propane may-oct, that’s not an option.
But in any case boiling water the fastest isn’t really the measure of a good cook.
Besides the extra heat Isn’t wasted in the winter time, I like to cook long and slow meals in the oven when temperatures drop, kill two birds with one stone.
I did design and build my own solar oven to use in the summertime but I got to watch it like a hawk. It will cook a tritip well done in 90 minutes on a sunny day, which isn’t what I’m intending. But it works well for brisket, Pork Butt and ribs if I finish them up in the oven after a day in the sun.
Induction ranges are more expensive than normal electric ranges. No guarantee your average apartment complex will spring for not only the upgraded service, but also the pricy induction cooktop. More likely what will happen in the case of a gas ban is most people get stuck with normal, lousy electric range. Progress!
Not to mention you have to use induction-compatible cookware, which is also more expensive than what most people have.
Even a normal electric store, used with a cheap Walmart pan (the kind that tends to dome up in the middle when heated) will see a large loss of efficiency as the majority of the surface area loses contact with the heating element.
The cookware problem is not worth mentioning. Cheap cast iron does not distort, and functions great if it is not the antique kind, with a ring on the bottom to elevate the pan above a wood stove. For other stovetop needs—especially boiling, steaming, and simmering, so-called granite wear works great, and it is super inexpensive. None of mine has shown the slightest distortion, although I would not expect that to remain true if I used it without water in it.
I've never had a graniteware pan that didn't distort, and of course that all applies to normal electric stoves, cast iron and cheap graniteware don't work on induction.
Cast iron and the cheapest graniteware both work great on my induction stovetop. Contrary to what you seem to be trying to suggest, I am not an ideologue on this question, and I am not lying. What are you doing?
I was incorrect about cast iron, that does work on induction, but cheap graniteware (and most cheap cookware in fact) is aluminum which does not work on induction because it's non-magnetic. Some aluminum-clad cookware has an iron plate in it for induction, but most of the cheap stuff I see does not (you can do a simple test with a magnet)
"if it is not the antique kind"
ALL my cast iron cookware is the antique kind. I regularly use a frying pan that was manufactured about the time of the Civil war.
Bet your "granite ware" isn't still doing good 140 years from now...
One of the many pluses with gas is that it works with any type of cookware.
Some proponents of a gas ban in my area thought the ban was good because they liked their induction stoves and everybody would be happy to be required to have one. What if the power goes out? Then you fire up your generator. This is what happens when people with too much money and too much free time make policy. While they can't say so out loud, driving up the price of construction also prevents the wrong people from moving in.
You think the construction cost to support gas appliances is higher than to support electric appliances? It seems the opposite where I live. Before electricity started to get more efficient, that was a real problem.
Landlords planning multi-unit housing wanted to keep construction costs low, so they inflicted costly-to-operate electric appliances and electric heat on everyone. That was actually a factor in gentrification. Only folks who could afford to live with electric heat moved into the newer, "luxury apartments," which were driving the older housing out.
Home Depot sells electric ranges starting from $500(ish) brand new. You can get used ones cheaper. You don’t need induction to switch from gas. Induction ranges start at $1100 for a 30″ model. Gas ranges at Home Depot start at $500(ish) — the same price as electric.
How often has the power gone out that this is a real concern? If it goes out that much, then your fuel type isn’t the issue. Regardless, do what millions of Floridians do: buy a BBQ or camping stove.
Installing only electric in a new home is cheaper than installing electric and gas infrastructure. The ranges cost the same.
“I have no idea which would prove the more efficient…”
No idea? Why not? The extra step of converting gas to electricity means you start out behind the 8-ball, efficiency-wise. You can get some of that back by getting rid of some gas infrastructure but you WILL have to enlarge the capacity of your electricity infrastructure.
And that applies to the “without any need to upgrade the electrical service” claim, too. MAYBE the breaker (and circuitry) to your kitchen has extra capacity to spare, but it’s not a general rule that it will.
Not that hard to figure out, Lathrop. Just the gas turbine alone drops your efficiency by 40% if you're using an absolutely top grade turbine under ideal circumstances. Add line losses and so forth, and you'll be lucky to hit 50% of the chemical energy of the gas coming out of the stove.
Converting heat into electricity in order to later produce... heat, is a fool's game.
I'll grant you that a top of the line induction stovetop might be a bit more efficient at putting that heat into the food. For hot water heaters or furnaces, or even ovens, the gas will be about as efficient.
And, of course, how does your induction stovetop handle woks, say? Or really large pans that exceed the area of the 'burner'? Nice thing about a gas flame is that it spreads across the pan, regardless of size or shape.
The waste heat from a gas stove is not wasted at all in northern states half of the year. In summer outdoor charcoal introduces zero unwanted heat to the dwelling.
I saw this argument made to preserve incandescent lightbulbs. According to the argument, the inefficiency of the bulb created heat and the heat was useful, therefore the bulb wasn't really inefficient! That argument is equally bad here.
Induction stoves are far more efficient at heating your food because they don't waste energy heating your home. If your fan is on (as it should be with a gas stove), a good amount of that heat is being pulled outside making it even less efficient at heating your home. Whereas, a heat pump is more efficient than a gas heater at heating a building and central heating attached to a thermostat is going to more controllable than timing your cooking for when some other room in your house is chilly.
Those "line losses" also apply to Solar and Wind generated electricity. Solar and Wind are both less efficient than the turbine to begin with. When you add in the loss from Solar being converted from DC to AC for line transmission, there's no contest.
Notice that it was a Restaurant Association who filed the suit. Certain types of cooking cannot be done with electric appliances.
Bellmore you are talking to a former obligatory gas range guy. The suppositions you bring to the cooking part are contradicted by the actual cooking experience. Previously, I would never live without gas. Now, I would never go back to gas.
The only notable loss is visual feedback. After a few weeks you know your numbers, and you dial in perfection like you never had before. Temperature changes are actually quicker than you get from gas.
Neither woks nor oversized pans seem problematic. I use a 14-inch-wide deep skillet to simmer giant batches of pasta sauce for freezing. No problems at all. At the other end, it's easier to put a crust on steaks without smoking up the kitchen.
Mine is not a high-end induction range. If memory serves, I got it under $900. And it has a great oven, which is not induction of course.
The other parts about turbine losses, etc, are what I would like to see quantified, not on the basis of circular cow principles, but on the basis of end-to-end comparative measurements. I have the impression that at the stovetop, I'm getting the heat to the food so much more efficiently that I wonder if a direct flame can rival it.
As a former heavy fabrication flame cutter, pre-heat guy for sub-zero welding, and oxyacetylene torch welder of aluminum irrigation tubes (try it), I have acquaintance with irresponsible habits nature seems to indulge from its open-air heat sources. I doubt the real world answers are likely to prove reliable matches for the theories.
Quantifying the loss of energy due to methane leaks, which would be similar to electrical transmission losses, would be interesting as well.
Here's a quick PDF from the EPA that provides some of this information.
My comment about your #1 is not at issue in this case, but some jurisdictions are trying to ban gas ranges because of the "health" risk they allegedly pose.
They are trying to come for people's appliances (AKA make sure new/replacements can never be purchased), even as they deny that is what they are doing.
Banning natural gas stoves is "for the children" after all...who could argue with that?
If it was really about health they'd just require range hoods that vent outside.
Burning natural gas (mostly methane) at home releases methane and byproducts into your home environment with no real way to scrub the air. The solution is to vent the toxic fumes outside where they add to the larger global warming issue. This decentralizes the burning and leaking of the fuel and makes it harder to control the resulting pollution. (Think of every time you turn on your gas burner and the methane escapes a bit before you finally light the fire.)
Burning natural gas in central facility provides the opportunity to scrub the gasses before they exit the facility. The electricity can then be distributed to run whatever one desires. This centralizes the burning and reduces the opportunities for leaks. As environmental technologies improve, centralized facilities with larger budgets will be better placed to take advantage of them and further reduce pollution.
Given this, the better solution would be central power generation and a reduction in natural gas in homes and most businesses.
The basis for federal jurisdiction pre-empting Berkeley’s rule against farting during a casual date (its “gas hookup ban”) would seem obvious. Since methane is a commercial commodity, per Raich v.Ashcroft the Commerce Clause permits Congress to regulate its production, even in a private home, even in bed. And while Congress cannot actually require people to fart during a hookup, it can tax those who don’t.
Or did I misunderstand the post title? The way things are going these days, it’s hard to tell.
You are misunderstanding the law, in both Wickard and Rauch.
If Congress does outlaw personal production of gas, there is absolutely no likelyhood that you are going to access the existing or possible interstate market for methane to replace the shortfall, so there is no nexus to interstate commerce.
It's the same nexus as me growing wheat for personal consumption.
Nobody tell these Berkley imbeciles what Airliners run on.
Air.
Today's entry for stupid comments by stupid people.
Well Mr. Never-Potent is correct, "Air" i.e. Oxygen is a vital component in Internal Combustion Engines, but don't tell them or they'll want to outlaw Oxygen too.
Thie Ninth proving that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
And in the South we still often cook with this entirely natural substance called "Charcoal"
Hopefully not indoors.
The issues with gas stove emissions can be solved easily with an external vent, as for leaking methane, tightening loose connections and pipes or replacing old leaky ones would practically eliminate the problem. What most of the progs in Berkeley and other anti-gas cities fail to realize though is that the utilities will not have any incentive to fix or maintain their gas lines if they can’t have new customers, which will result in more gas leaks and explosions.
My real concern though is how are kids going to learn chemistry without a Bunsen burner?
It's not intended that most of them learn chemistry. In fact, the fewer proles learn chemistry, the less competition the children of the Nomenklatura face.
Give me new customers or I'll blow up my existing ones!
Woah. That's a novel marketing ploy. Do you think it'll work?
Reading this ruling and how it affects other aspects of state and local jurisdiction police powers it is interesting.
I suspect they could utilize powers granted to CA by the clean air act to regulate emissions instead of hook ups.
The broader questions that this raises in my mind and one that i have long felt impact CA's overly broad use of police powers to ban all sorts of products, is the states commitment to ban internal combustion engines or many other products.
Reading this ruling it sounds as though a case could be made that CA is granted to the power by the Clean air act to implement its own standards but it was never granted the authority by congress to ban ICE's. If that is the Case and CA p continues down the path of banning ICE chain saws lawn mowers and generators as they plan to next year wouldn't that run afoul of interstate commerce and the authority that CA was granted?
Banning of an entire class of products that are regulated by congress, that are not manufactured in CA in essence and based on this ruling significantly does affect industries and states economies outside of CA.
National Pork Producers Council v. Ross would seem to also pull some on some of the same opinions.
Though i am a large proponent of states rights and powers where the line is drawn on that seems to be finally percolating to the surface. How far can the state claim to be protecting you before it transitioning to the point it is actually forcing you and other states economies to become regimented in their ideals only.
.......... interesting times ahead
Can
Can one extend that to abortion pills? Pot? Alcohol (Utah, I'm looking at you.) Banned books? Tik Tok?
And if the city of Berkeley voted for this, then is it really the government claiming to protect you or the majority of your voting neighbors?