The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Additional Thoughts on "The Etiquette of Equality"
I second Orin's suggestion that it is worth reading The Etiquette of Equality, by Ben Eidelson. I saw the paper presented at a workshop last year and have thought about it regularly since then. A couple of additional thoughts:
The fact that there is an etiquette norm (or contested etiquette norm) against using particular words or making particular analogies is for me not the end of the inquiry. Sometimes there are etiquette norms that we can be justified in violating -- indeed, we might even think it important to violate and try to undermine them if they are too nefarious. Maybe we refuse to bow to a foreign prince, or refuse to obey gendered clothing norms.
Or maybe we insist on exercising our right to free speech, even in cases where it is offensive, precisely because of the importance of that right to free speech. Or maybe not. The etiquette analysis helps us see why exercising that right is costly, and helps us process a negative reaction, but it doesn't tell us which etiquette norms we should have or when we are morally justified in violating them.
The analysis also reminds me of a related analysis from Scott Alexander, Give Up Seventy Percent Of The Way Through The Hyperstitious Slur Cascade (which, to be clear, I don't understand Eidelson, Orin, or even me to endorse). Alexander notes that norms that a particular word is a slur, or other such norms against using particular words and phrases, have a "hyperstitious" structure:
A hyperstition is a belief which becomes true if people believe it's true. For example, "Dogecoin is a great short-term investment and you need to buy it right now!" is true if everyone believes it is true; lots of people will buy Dogecoin and it will go way up. "The bank is collapsing and you need to get your money out right away" is likewise true; if everyone believes it, there will be a run on the bank. . . .
[various examples ensue]
As Alexander argues, after a certain point, most people will comply with social norms not to use particular words and phrases and symbols unless they are unusually insensitive to those norms, and then after a certain further point, will comply unless they are actively hostile to those norms. At that point the norm is strongly self-reinforcing. But on the way there, there can be a lot of conflict and confusion.
Alexander concludes:
So one thing I think about a lot is: when do I join the cascade?
I can't never join the cascade. I'm not going to refer to the Japanese as "Japs" out of some kind of never-joining-hyperstitious-slur-cascade principle. This would be the dumbest possible hill to die on. I would lose all my social credibility and maybe even actually sadden one or two real Japanese people.
And if I'm the last person to join a hyperstitious slur cascade, then I'll probably do pretty badly. I don't think we've reached 100% fixation on nobody-uses-Confederate-flags-innocently. A relative of mine who lives in the South and has no known political opinions still has a Confederate flag sticker in his room. But I wouldn't want to emulate him, even if I had some good reason to like Southernness.
On the other hand, the people who want to be the first person in a new cascade, like USC's social work department, are contemptible. And the people who join when it's only reached 1% or 5%, out of enthusiastic conformity or pre-emptive fear, are pathetic.
(none of this applies to things being done for good reasons - banning actually harmful things - I'm just skeptical that this process gets used for that very often)
I think I usually join about 70% of the way through. Realistically, success is already overdetermined by 50% - but I want to make them work for it and make it as annoying for them as possible. This is a compromise between principle and self-preservation, but I don't know a better way to do it. I will fight harder when it's something useful and important instead of just some words, and there might be some things - like the example of being openly gay, used above - where it's worth never giving in to pressure to taboo something, and trying to preserve your right to keep doing it until you can start a virtuous respectability cascade cycle.
I'm writing this post so that the next time someone comments with "did you know that term you used, which was the standard until six months ago and which nobody was ever offended by until then, is now considered offensive, why don't you use term XYZ instead?", I can give my honest answer: "Because it's less than 70% of the way through the hyperstitious slur cascade, and that's the boundary that I've set for myself."
Again, I am not particularly committed to a 70% or any other threshold, but I recommend reading both Eidelson, and Alexander, for those interested in these issues.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Idiot.
If I stumble across a foreign prince on my turf I will certainly decline to accede to any unusual claims he might think he has on me. This is "idiotic" how?
The gendered clothing norms is the idiotic part.
Perhaps…
"Maybe we refuse… to obey gendered clothing norms."
…would have made your point clearer.
I agree that “think[ing] it important to violate and try to undermine” qendered clothing norms is mostly going to be idiotic. But sometimes the “qendered clothing norm” can get pretty questionable. Muzzie face veils in venues where no one is likely to take it as an invitation to rape or beat, for example. Are the streets of Ryad that infested with goat-and-boy fuckers that the police coundn’t control them by cutting off appropriate body parts?
What's wrong with women wearing pants? Or are you okay with it as long as they only wear capris?
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5 RSV)
"And Jesus tied his ass to a tree and went into the city."
So tell us, how does it feel to be tied to a tree?
You callin' me Jesus?
Reading comprehension problem?
That was Balaam, not Jesus, who tied his ass to a tree.
Look, an ass got tied to a tree, that's what matters.
What matters is that you're an ass who can't get ANYthing right.
That ASS was tied to a TREE
"Equality! I spoke the word as if a wedding vow. But I was so much older then I'm younger than that now." --Bob Dylan, "My Back Pages"
The people who angrily cling to offensive terms do so precisely because they understand that they are offensive; you can observe it all over the comments here.
I use the word “tranny” because it’s accurate and short and I see no reason to comply with those who assert that simple truths ought be avoided, not because it is “offensive”. That those I despise take offense at it is a bonus.
[wrong place]
Gandydancer, I wonder if you have any inkling how much those habits of thought cost you. Or, actually, I know you have no inkling. You would not willingly pay the price you inflict on yourself if you knew what it was.
Spare me your nonsense, Lathrop. I've seen your act and I don't aspire to it.
Sometimes freedom is worth the price.
Indeed. Once freedom of speech is suppressed, so will all our other freedoms.
Generally that kind of hate turns out to be antithetical to freedom.
"Hate, hate, hate!" says our local completely self-unaware hater.
Of the two of us, only one has admitted to despising a group of people.
Since you're happy to admit you're a hateful bigot, it seems a bit picky to insist the slur you're using is not a slur.
“Seems” that way to a Lefty cretin who is so incapable of making distinctions that he states as fact that I have “admit[ted to being] a hateful bigot” when it’s obvious idiocy to say so.
If bigotry should prosper, none dare call it bigotry, which is presumably the general idea.
We actually cling to them because we understand that you want them to be considered "offensive" in order that you can effectively forbid anyone from using them.
Not that you want them forbidden because they're offensive.
That is to say, you're engaged in an exercise of NewSpeak, controlling what people think by controlling their language. And we don't wish to cooperate in that effort.
Shut up and take the racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever verbal abuse! If you object you're infringing my freedoms!
The people who cling to offensive terms may well do so because terms that are offensive to them are socially acceptable.
It's really interesting what is (and isn't) considered socially acceptable and who is socially protected from insult (and who isn't).
And that's what the good professor missed.
1. The second student in Prof. Eidelson's scenario did not use any "offensive terms."
2. Let's say you're right -- everyone using a particular term you find "offensive" wants to insult / offend you. So what? They're still fully entitled to make their point (however "offensive" and insulting). You're free to (1) respond in kind, (2) be a bigger man and refrain from insults yourself, or (3) exit the discussion. What you aren't (or at least shouldn't be) free to do is censor them.
That's three options and responding directly (but not 'in kind') to the offence isn't one of them, now THAT'S weird.
Let's be clear: The logic the left uses here leads to bans on comedy like George Carlin's Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television. That's what they want to prohibit.
Alternatively, the people who claim to be able to read minds and know that the "clinging" is being done "angrily" are doing so precisely because they understand that they can piss off their political opponents by being intolerant language police. You can observe that all over the comments here, too.
The rather larger group of us in the middle remember the "sticks and stones" rhyme and wonder why you're both discrediting yourselves.
“The people who angrily cling to offensive terms do so precisely because . . . ”
Interesting. And what about the people who angrily decide that terms that weren’t considered offensive yesterday are now offensive today?
Are you able to apply your powers of insight to help illuminate this at all?
Or, you could look up an example or two and read whatever scholarship already exists to gain those insights.
Do you have any insight into why some people angrily decide that terms suddenly become offensive, so that we have an ever-shifting array of taboo language?
Your link just says that some people find a word offensive, while others don't. "In 2008, [NAACP] communications director Carla Sims said "the term 'colored' is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word 'colored' because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It's outdated and antiquated but not offensive."
Your framing sets this up as "sudden" when, as an organic process, it generally is going to be quite slow. Obviously some events might precipitate a faster change like the sudden drop in babies named "Adolph" after WWII.
In the link I provided, it says: " Due to its use in the Jim Crow era to designate items or places restricted to African Americans, the word colored is now usually considered to be offensive." This directly answers your question. The word was associated with segregation which made it unappealing.
Wow! A wikipedia link, sourced to the Oxford English dictionary, which references... nothing? That's absolutely definitive!
Reason.com is a rage farm--especially the top-level pages. (Read at your own risk.) A large number of people come here to be intentionally offensive. This site attracts those kinds of people as their primary audience. I do not believe Reason to be representative of the majority.
Like I said in Orin’s thread, Will deserves better than this. What a pathetic lot these shitposting RW culture warriors are.
News for you: Your wind isn't inspiring anyone to a higher form of commentary.
Apparently you haven't noticed what's happened in the US in the past 200+ years.
(Hint: you're on the losing side.)
So who's the "Winning!" side?
All of us. . . .
Whether you like it or not.
If you think the current state of the country is "winning" I will hate to see what losing is like.
OK, you did win in Afghanistan, congratulations!
apedad needs to actually study that 240+ years of history.
Minorities have *briefly* held power, Blacks in the 1870s, gays early in the 20th Century -- only to wind up a lot worse than before. People forget that the Federal Government wasn't segregated before Wilson segregated it, and that it was a BLACK cop who stopped President Grant for speeding in DC.
Pretty poor Judgement on the Cops part.
@apedad: I certainly don’t “notice” that the success of you and your ilk in transforming this country into a shithole has any relevance to what I said about Leo Marvin’s content-free whine not contributing anything to improving the commentary on this post.
But perhaps you can explain your logic?
I kid. Of course you can’t. You’re a moron.
Sadly, the Volokh conspiracy comments have been largely hijacked by these assholes. Kerr and Baude are the best of the contributors and I remain hopeful that through the muck, we will be able to have intelligent debates about what they post.
Kerr and Baude understand the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience, its aims, its contributors, and its bigotry. Yet they stay. At some point, people who cavort with bigots lose the presumption of good faith and innocence.
They are not necessarily bigots, or even bigot-hugging right-wingers, but unless they explain away the record that record supports reasonable inferences.
How many decent people would voluntarily associate with a blog that launches a vile racial slur every few weeks for years, and features rampant bigotry on a daily basis, without at least addressing that point?
What nonsense. The posts haven't changed much over the years even though the audience has. And those posts, for the most part, are not bigoted.
That's your defense of the Conspiracy. That the bigotry is relatively limited? I doubt Prof. Volokh figures you're helping.
The posts attract the bigots, who are a core target audience of this (most likely every) right-wing blog. The bigoted commenters provide most -- and plenty -- of the overt bigotry.
The bigotry is not relatively limited. It’s barely present at all in the posts.
And again, the audience has had no effect on the posts over the years and thus there is no target audience for the Conspiracy.
If you ignore the more-than-monthly vile racial slurs . . .
And the bizarre stream of transgender-lesbian-Muslim-drag queen-gay posts from Prof. Volokh (who ignores gigantic defamation cases, the indictment of a former president, the Florida censorship binge, countless mass shootings, and other develops while scouring the internet for anything involving a gay Muslim drag queen or a lesbian transgendered white grievance) . . .
And the emphasis on safe spaces for bigots and bigoted expression . . .
Your attempts to defend the calculated bigotry at this blog would still be unpersuasive.
Do you know how many times this blog published a vile racial slur during the most recent six months? The most recent year? Most recent two years? Maybe your argument is flawed because you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Since it is your thesis, why don't quantify how often Eugene posts on various topics and catalog the racial slurs (which I suspect aren't racial slurs when taken in context).
I hope you recognize your folly now that the left-wing shitposters have descended in this thread in force.
If you find yourself in the path of a hyperstitious cascade, my advice is treat it like an oncoming avalanche. Step aside, and it will go right past you to the bottom, where it will melt away in the spring.
I listened to some of Eielson's "The Etiquette of Equality" and was interested to learn that it is "disrespectful" to call homos "homosexuals" rather than "gay". Never mind that you don't think that being a fag is in the slightest bit a gay thing to be, you MUST demonstrate "respect" by adopting the bogus description of that sad and mildly disgusting dysfunction.
Discuss.
The distinguishing point of the Volokh Conspiracy is that a commenter will be be censored for describing conservatives as "sl_ck-j_wed" (or "p_ssies," or "c_p succ_rs") or banned for making fun of conservatives, but comments using vile racial slurs, homophobic slurs, anti-immigrant slurs, Islamophobic slurs, and the like are not only accepted but welcomed (incited, even, or repeated) by this blog's management!
How much bigotry would it take for some of the Conspirators to disassociate from this blog? Is there any volume or nature of bigotry that would cause some Conspirators to depart?
Missing is a look at human nature: insiders in a "group" use language not permitted to "outsiders." Spend time as an invitee among -call it a group using any criteria cultural, gender, ethnicity, race, religion, interests and you will hear words not used outside the group. The same may be true of in group writings. Group members make assumptions about meaning and intent of language when uttered by "us" vs "them". Outside the group we are all "them" not an easy concept for humans to adjust to.
No, you not being able to say the N-word is not an affront to human nature.
you'd eliminate 99% of Rap "Music" if you cut out the N-words.
And what does the "Q" in LGBTQ stand for?
It’s an affront to freedom of speech, at least.
But all that’s going on here is an attempt to establish that you get to control what other people can say, by making utterly arbitrary demands, and claiming that they’re just being polite. “Colored people”? Out. “People of color”? In. Totally arbitrary, the terms have no particular negative denotation either way.
But if you can get people into the habit of letting you control what they’re allowed to say, you can use that power to control what they’re able to think. The NewSpeak principle, or if you prefer, an application of the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
Brett, as has been said many, many, times, free speech does not mean free from consequences.
I'm not controling anything; social norms are a thing that exists, even if you or I don't like them, even when they change too quickly or too slowly for our taste.
They are not a conspiracy to make you an outsider, nor any kind of power grab; it sucks you feel like an outsider due to them; you are not along. But this is not the sekret intent.
It's not a secret intent, it just gets lip-service denials from denialists. Anybody who is paying attention sees it as a specific intent. As tkamenick points out below, this is one way the left "others" the mainstream.
Your evidence appears to be an appeal to your own authority.
Whatever, dude.
The guy who so seldom supplies evidence for anything poses as a lover of evidence. So funny!
He is one of the leading denialists in this comment area, so he takes being called out personally. He doesn't care how many nutty colleges install wrong-headed language police, or how many media organizations confuse cause and effect in their efforts to force language change; he will deny any of this actually reflects a conscious effort on the part of the Year Zero crowd to force change and push out people who refuse to run fast enough on the euphemism treadmill.
a conscious effort on the part of the Year Zero crowd to force change
I mean, I require evidence, and you've provided 2 anecdotes, both of which are of dodgy relevance to this claim.
I also read the OP, which you seem not to have bothered with - it talks about the relevant proportion of the population being 70% before he'll change over.
So you got a lotta work to do if you want to prove that conspiracy, buddy!
It's about time for the Volokh Conspiracy to demonstrate its conservative devotion to free speech by censoring some more liberals, lying about it, and launching another string of vile racial slurs.
You know you want to, Conspirators.
Sarc, you completely missed the point. Othering IS human nature, and language - including language that in other contexts would be inappropriate - is part of that.
Look at the OP. If 70% of the population is 'othering' that's not the left.
The language of politesse can be a curious thing. I have long been puzzled that "person of color" is acceptable, but "colored person" is an anachronism.
I think we can agree that life isn’t black and white, and there’s A LOT of gray, i.e., subtlety adds to the richness (and yes, confusion) of life.
It's not hard to understand once you realize that it's a "gotcha"; They're checking to see if you're a member of the in-group, by testing whether you turn on a dime when they change the preferred terminology.
If you're not loyal enough to the cause to expend that effort and attention, you've outed yourself.
Euphemism as part of politeness has been a thing across cultures and history. It’s not a trap laid for you by the woke.
The first thing can be true without the second thing being true. Just because there's a long history of it doesn't mean any particular use of it isn't intentionally done to exclude, or signal, or trap.
Have you any proof of your thinking here?
Of course demanding the use of a particular euphemism (e.g., per the essay, "gay" instead of "homosexual") can be used to exclude, or signal, or trap.
Where is YOUR proof for your denial of the obvious?
This is a tic with you, and don't imagine that everyone doesn't notice that.
If you didn't have double standards you would have no standards at all.
The fundamental goal of the euphemism treadmill is not to retire bad words, but to keep people running.
This is why when I want to shit I have to say I’m going to the bathroom.
What a conspiracy.
It amazes me that you think a word that has been deemed vulgar for 400+ years versus a 100-year-old dialect clause is even remotely comparable to "'people of color' good, 'colored people' bad".
400 years, 100 years, 20 years.
Etiquette changes fast. Fascinating to study, if you aren’t trying to turn it into some persecution narrative.
Well, there's this group of people who spent four hundred years being enslaved, oppressed, vilified, verbally and physically abused and generally pushed to the margins and are still disproportionally affected by poverty and crime. Your minor and affected confusion over how to be polite when talking about them is pretty small beans by comparison.
Man, you'd think that in 400 years, even being abused, a guy would sock away at least SOME savings. And he'd be able to sell his blood to gerontology researchers for an absolute fortune, too!
Maybe there's this group of people somewhat related to, or who at least superficially resemble, long dead folks who were enslaved and so forth? Not the actual folks went through that? That would be my guess.
Of course, my ancestors got starved out of their homeland rather more recently, and I think the British owe me... precisely nothing. Because they didn't do it to me, personally, and the people who did it are long dead.
Brett, did you stop reading after enslaved?
Here's the whole quote: "enslaved, oppressed, vilified, verbally and physically abused and generally pushed to the margins"
Hope that helps your next comment be a bit more on point.
Nobody's asking you to be polite about the Brits.
"...are still disproportionally affected by... crime..."
Hate fact: Disproportionally commit it to. So in the here and now every one else is disproportionately affected by them. Where do I go to get my check for this?
I'd say you reap what you sow, but it's still them bearing the brunt of it.
In some groups, the bathroom is called the shitter -- and there isn't a bathtub in it.
But you get that it’s vulgar, right? Sometimes funny, often casual and unthinking, but still vulgar, and sometimes using it is a minor (usually funny, at worst embarrasing) social faux pas. Well all sorts of slurs were exactly like that and some probably still are. It's just that the people those slurs get directed at objected, and most people realised that they were casually insulting other people for no good reason at all, and stopped.
Calling someone who engages in bestiality a pervert is just fine by me even if it hurts their feelings. Resisting the normalization of such disgusting behavior IS a "good reason" to do it.
Same with buggery.
Sexcrimes?
You not only keep them running, every so often you speed up the treadmill, to keep it from getting too crowded.
Once again, language and courtesy changing is not a conspiracy to make you feel like an outsider.
That’s just humans.
Once again, we're not going to pretend that your arbitrary linguistic demands are just common courtesy. No matter how much you demand that we do.
You're just trying to control the argument by controlling the language.
Do SarcastrO's comments pass the Turing test?
Derived based on social norms is not the same as arbitrary.
You not being privvy to stuff and then it surfacing in the larger culture is just how things work. May seem chosen to confuse you; that does not mean it is.
Making people feel like an outsider IS HUMANS.
And as BB says in the next one, lumping all language change together as common courtesy is gaslighting.
Amazing how "courtesy" always works by you getting what you want, and never with you respecting the beliefs of others, isn't it?
I gather the clingers issue a pass for the euphemisms right-wingers try to hide behind as modern America passes them by:
“Traditional values” for superstition-based gay-bashing.
“Family values” for old-timey misogyny.
“Religious values” for bigoted hatred of immigrants.
“Conservative values” for race-targeting voter suppression.
“Respecting the Republican base” for appeasing un-American delusion.
“Southern tradition” for celebrating the losers, traitors, and racists of the Confederacy.
“Teaching the controversy” for appeasing childish nonsense, superstition, and dogma.
“Religious freedom” for “heads we win, tails you lose” treatment of religious claims.
“The heartland” for ignorant, superstitious, bigoted, desolate backwaters.
“Regular Americans” for half-educated, gullible, disaffected culture war casualties.
If you look at this from the perspective of a "gotcha," then you're just inserting yourself as the central character in this narrative. It isn't about you. Some words go out of favor because those words have connections, history, and connotations that a community doesn't want to associate with directly. These words are changed by organic consensus over time rather than by some central organizing committee.
What other people choose to call themselves isn't about you.
No one is saying fags can't call themSELVES "gay".
These are your people, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason you inhabit the disrespected, disaffected fringe of modern America's legal academia. Your fans love you; your deans and faculty colleagues wish you would leave.
Anachronism? don't tell the https://naacp.org/
Love how the Talking Heads (the babblers on TV, not the great Band)
referring to some former CIA agent as a "Spook" and totally not getting it.
Frank
The petulance.
The narrative here seems to be that being an asshole is a virtue, actually, and if no one wants to associate with such folk it’s a sign of their noble refusal to ever read a room or adapt to anything social, ever. Because being accepted is what liberals use to control people or something.
It’s virtue signaling, except for driving people away.
This is not an impulse of a movement that is growing. There are plenty of conservatives around, but they have already adopted the philosophy of a powerless rump party.
Your argument is that everybody should every time adapt to every single trend and never resist it - nobody should have a threshhold higher than 1 other person. How does that even work? I'm guessing you didn't start calling COVID "China flu" or anything similar. I wonder why?
Wuhan Flu -- just like Ebola, named after where it came from.
Read the OP, tkamenick. That's not what it says.
In response to the OP, the expected set of commenters says: 'I don't care if something is 100% adopted, I'm not gonna!'
Yes, you get input into this dialogue as well; I'm not some ultimate arbiter. I did not like calling it Obamacare, but here we are.
Meanwhile no one thinks being dishonest has moral or social value.
This is not actually how you get your view accross.
It is how you burnish your own bitter sense of self-righteousness. Not much more than that though.
It's not at all about me.
Your comments are absolutely all about you. They don't engage anyone who doesn't agree with you; they don't dig into any nuanced issues.
They are pure partisanship, nothing more.
You can do better, I expect. But you do not.
Incorrect on all counts.
"I may be cruel, brusque or impatient, but I don’t lie." (Ann Coulter)
Paging Emily Post.
If one believes surveys, the polarization of our society makes any overall statistic almost meaningless. If 67% supermajority accept a label as appropriate and respectful of an identity, that might comprise 97% of Liberal/Leaning favoring it and 37% Conservative/Leaning disfavoring it. Does the the overall average make it a Norm or is it just a Liberal/Leaning Norm? When >50% of Liberal/Left favor it but <20% of Conservative/Leaning not accept and acknowledge it, are the Conservative/Leaning obligated to use it to not be intentionally insulting?
MAGA Trumpsters wear the hats but Progressives/Liberals made it an intentional insult.
"MAGA Trumpsters wear the hats but Progressives/Liberals made it an intentional insult."
Yes.
In other words, taking offense at something is a choice. Why should anyone honor someone else’s very self-focused choices? Choosing to take offense is not choosing kindness or tolerance or mutual respect.
Being offensive is also a choice.
Making America Great Again isn’t offensive.
Except to America-haters, I guess.
No, it is America-hating.
It says America is not great.
America is great. Not perfect by any means, but great for sure. Stop hating.
Your personal brand of using dishonesty to start fights is also not "choosing kindness or tolerance or mutual respect".
People who genuinely want kindness and tolerance and mutual respect wouldn’t act the way you do.
Holy fuck Ben, you said anyone who didn't like MAGA was an America-hater.
I responded in kind. GTFO with your calls for mutual respect when you come in like that.
I explained why MAGA *was* offensive, even without the context of who adopted it as a slogan. Want to engage with the substance?
If you don’t want a fight, don’t go out of your way to try to start one by taking offense. That would be etiquette in action. It’s how a kind, tolerant, respectful person might act.
Since you wish to exhibit none of those virtues, you don’t.
Making America Great isn’t a problem. People like you who want to cause problems are the problem.
don’t go out of your way to try to start one by taking offense.
Ben…you have agency.
You yourself can choose not to be an asshole, rather than just yell at people reacting to you being an asshole with something other than utter respect.
You seem just miserable, man. You can choose to be better. I could be as well, but I'm not actually too concerned about convincing you of much.
If people are "nice" and follow "rules", leftists keep making up more rules, over and over and over until everyone (except the select few true believers, the holiest of the aggrieved) can be declared an asshole.
So no, not really. Anyone exercising any agency eventually becomes an asshole for not surrendering all his agency to the most intersectionally aggrieved (or their white knights).
You said as much yourself. Leftist organizations are consumed by internal infighting over purity tests.
It’s all costs and no benefits to ever going along with any of it.
BTW: That’s easy to figure out by going along with the first thing and assessing what benefit is received in return. None. Still waiting.
Just to pick the clearest example, America elected Obama. Racial relations got worse. Nothing can ever, ever be enough, or even a small down payment on enough.
It's a slogan. Not much else.
So taking offense is futile and pointless in addition to being intolerant, not kind, and not mutually respectful.
It’s an exercise of freedom of speech, for whatever that’s worth.
I’d like to thank Orin and Will for posting and linking me to what I thought was a fascinating essay, which I highly recommend actually reading at least in part— a lot of the comments here seem to be coming from a knee-jerk perspective and tilting at conclusions the essay goes out of its way not to make. As the author repeatedly says, there are no easy answers here.
I share Leo Marvin’s sentiments mostly. I will add, however, that these comments are extremely predictable. This is, after all, the “fuck your feelings” crowd. There is a peculiar streak in (some) Americans— to view being an asshole as a virtue. It comes out more luridly online of course but you see it in real life too.
Would it shock you to learn that I consider you (or anyone) an asshole if you're trying to impose your preferences on others (by, for instance, telling them what they can and cannot say)? Who the hell do you think you are?!
Again, there is a lot of nuance in this essay which you have clearly not engaged with in any meaningful way. But thanks for your comment!
Have you considered that it isn't an imposition and you aren't being told what to say, but rather it's your own response to learning that society, through consensus, is drifting away from something you appear to value?
Do you "thank" the Conspirators for that, too?
"This is, after all, the “fuck your feelings” crowd. There is a peculiar streak in (some) Americans— to view being an asshole as a virtue."
It’s just reciprocity. Using your feelings as leverage to make demands obviously says "fuck you" to whomever is subjected to the demands.
A simple no is preferable to "fuck your feelings" though. The answer to demands should be no.
"did you know that term you used, which was the standard until six months ago and which nobody was ever offended by until then, is now considered offensive, why don't you use term XYZ instead?",
This sort of ignores the way terms that were standard or inoffesnive or non-estent until six months ago might have been adapted or developed as slurs by edgelords and griefers and that usage slipped into the mainstream. Yes, this concedes too much to assholes. No, I don't know how to deal with it, except through the eventual reclamation of those slurs by the people they were directed at. Even then people outside the targeted groups will probably avoid it for a long while. 'Queer' coms to mind as a slur that was reclaimed, and has since been mainstreamed again, 'fag,' no, it's still a slur if used by most people who aren't gay. These considerations may be too much for a narcissist who thinks the use of slurs and offensive terms is primarily a problem for him because someone somewhere might criticise him for using them, even if inadvertantly.
[IANALinguist] It cannot have been a standard a mere 6 months prior. Consensus over a population this large takes years not months in most cases. "Queer," for example, wasn't reclaimed in 6 months and not even 6 years, by some measures, and there are still voices within the LGBTQ community that are offended by it. "Fag" really isn't used even by insiders.
What I find interesting is that people who use offensive words after there's been significant consensus on their use must understand that these words signal their position on the subject at hand. Virtue signaling for assholes. So why the complaints about being "forced" to use currently accepted terms? Is it just a "cake and eat it too" thing with them or are they genuinely puzzled why offensive words aren't received favorably by the majority?
I can well believe these things have accelerated, though I honestly can't think offhand of any words that went from inoffensive to offensive in six months. 'Normie' recently became an insult, but nobody cares, 'groomer' is relatively recent, though way more than six months, worse, but still generic, except when directed at lgtbq people. Neither of those were ever in general usage as anything else much. 'No doubt Urban Dictionary could suggest a few.
"Groomer" is just a synonym for "pedophile," which has a deep and painful connection to LGBT discrimination. It doesn't require a lot of thought to understand the meaning. And in this case, I don't think "groomer" would have ever been applied in a positive way first. It's not like LGBT people called themselves groomers beforehand and then decided it was bad. It was always bad. I don't think that particular word is a good example of the OP.
Maybe "woke" would be an interesting study. It was gaining traction in the anti-racist crowd then picked up by some in the right-wing trolling community as an epithet. It's made it into DeSantis' "Stop Woke" bill, even. But I was reading an article that claimed a poll showed that American views on the word split down the party line. To your point about acceleration, social media and internet chat rooms are the likely culprit there.
Perhaps this is folly, but I’d like to make a comment on the actual article:
Eidelson identifies prescriptions to counter or mitigate some of the vicious cycles he is identifying. But it strikes me that he misses an important one. The offense “inflation” spiral he describes is heavily dependent on people being aware of the existence of a monoculture. The logic is that offense is rightly taken because “I know that you know that I know that….” et cetera.
But if people are able to recognize that they are dealing with others who don’t have the same background and experiences they do, and that having people with different backgrounds and experiences is valuable, they should be able to recognize that expecting everyone to know the same elaborate system of “etiquette” is unreasonable. And, of course, the thing that most forces people to recognize these things is actual exposure to people who have meaningfully different backgrounds and experiences. Reality can be a salve for the overly baroque. It seems no coincidence that the dilemmas over which Eidelson is forced to perseverate are occurring in places that have become increasingly homogeneous in most of the ways that count.
I also think Eidelson gives short shrift to the influence of people acting in bad faith. He describes dynamics that can lead to negative outcomes — the elimination of intellectual diversity, making certain common ideas inexpressible, or requiring speakers to master arcane rules before they can speak. And he describes how this can happen even if no one thinks these outcomes are good things. But surely that isn’t the case; surely some view these outcomes as features, rather than bugs. And they can act cynically to drive things toward their desired outcomes. When he is describing his own behavior, I don’t think Eidelson reckons with how much power he is ceding to those who act cynically.
That said, it strikes me that there is nothing wrong with Eidelson’s defenses of the etiquette of equality that couldn’t be fixed by multiplying by 1/10th.
You have a lot of surelies but no real proof of these bad faith actors you claim.
In the end, it is a waste of time to worry about the motives behind a collective thing like widely (70% remember) adopted shifts in what formal/polite language requires. First, there's never going to be one motive behind something that broad. Second, even if you're right, being righteous as you're shunned for being hidebound and antisocial is not going to have much functional upshot.
1. I count two “surelies” in what I wrote. Both appear in the assertion that there exist people who view censorship of ideas and people they disagree with as a positive good in its own right. I regularly encounter a vocal minority of people explicitly defending that position. Do you not?
2. Where I care about the motives of people for expressing offense is not at the end of the norm-building process that Alexander describes (where 70% say “this is the new way to talk”). As you (and he) note, it’s a foregone conclusion at that point.
Where I care about motives is at the beginning of the norm-building process that Eidelson describes. Eidelson is specifically describing a process that is highly contingent and path dependent. And he is describing taking actions that are likely to contribute to a new substantive norm, but which he is taking for reasons other than compliance with a substantive norm. He offers an ambivalent defense of contributing to the creation of new categories of offense. But I think one should be even more ambivalent than he is if one accounts for the possibility of, and the incentives one creates for, bad faith.
(I have not tried to read the comment threads in whole, as they are littered with the comments of the usual trolls. I have read the Eidelson article in whole, as two Conspirators recommended it, and it held my interest. My comment should be read in that context.)
Eidelson is specifically describing a process that is highly contingent and path dependent
I'm not sure that's at all true. As I said, there are always going to be many contributing causes to something becoming widely adopted as a cultural norm.
In the excerpt in the OP, he's specifically talking about realizing when something has become a norm and acting accordingly.
It's always your right to say a norm isn't 'real' or 'honest' and not abide by it, but your proof will always be dodgy, and that juice sees rarely worth the squeeze.
Yeah, the comments have gotten not great, but I'm glad to at least have a bit of an intellectual back-and-forth like the old days with ya 😀
In my experience, it's not hard to tell if someone's use of an old term is intended to be offensive or defiant of shifting norms. There is so much more that goes into communication than just a single, offensive word. Other commenters appear to have experienced what happens when people take the use of that word at face value and assume good intention--some will politely inform the speaker about the new norms. How else do these norms change and spread to begin with?
Also, "monoculture" isn't a useful way to describe this. Monoculture implies a number of undesirable things and outcomes not the least of which is that diversity (polyculture) is preferable and harmed here. Yet the new language is usually driven by the group that the word refers to and any sense of ownership of that sort of term has to give preference to that very group. The alternative to that is to have groups being defined by hostile outsiders, which is not the preferred alternative to "monoculture."
To me, this all seems like a lot of circling around the central issue which is that norms change and some people find that scary, especially when it touches on central points of their own self-identity.
"I also think Eidelson gives short shrift to the influence of people acting in bad faith."
This is a general reply to this sub-thread. First a general disclaimer, I'm a function over form kind of type, so I generally agree with the Carlin line posted above: what you do matters more than what you say.
With that bias acknowledged, language policing isn't cost free. One example: I have long had the habit of holding doors for people. I am probably a bit of a sexist/ageist/ableist pig about it, too - I might hold the door open for an able bodied man if he is 10 feet behind me, but will extend that much farther for a pregnant woman or elderly person with a walker. But I never just opened the door, went through, and let it slam in the face of someone behind me.
Then one day in the late 90's I held the door for a woman who was close behind me, and she uncorked a 60 second diatribe using phrases like 'sexist pig' and words like 'bastard'. I was pretty stunned. For a few months I just stopped holding doors, but it bothered me. It just felt wrong to let it slam behind me. So I canvassed various female acquaintances and relatives - a dozen at least - and their sentiment was unequivocal - none of them objected in the slightest to people holding doors (and they in turn held doors for others). And it's not like I'm Amish or something, surrounded by women with unusual view of gender equality. These were all women who had careers and so on, fully on board with equality of the sexes.
I resumed holding doors for everyone, and I have not encountered similar objections since.
For another, my wife was once at a meeting and suggested they get a 'flip chart' - one of those oversize paper tablets on an easel - to record ideas. Same deal - a lady (not of Philippine ancestry) - angrily objected that 'Flip' was a slur towards Filipinos (which is at least sometimes true apparently). But we asked a handful of Filipino friends, and they were pretty adamant that while it could be a slur, they had no objection whatsoever to 'flip chart', 'back flip', 'flipping houses', etc, etc. They thought objecting to general use like that was profoundly silly.
To get to the point of the long winded anecdotes: tolerance cuts both ways. The two people here, objecting to flip charts and door holding, don't get to claim any high ground of tolerance, although at least one - the flip chart lady - explicitly framed their demand as a demand for tolerance. I think, though, they were actually trying to impose a very minority opinion of theirs on everyone else, and that is exactly the opposite of tolerance.
Please find something productive to spend your time on. Please.
Thinking about how to be good at dealing with other people in various situations is absolutely a good use of time.
It’s busybody-ism and double standards. As always.
Kindness doesn’t require strategizing. Even a three-year-old can do it.
No one needs a calculated facade of selectively-applied etiquette rules from people with nothing worthwhile to do.
People are complicated. Being kind is not always easy to navigate, especially regarding groups rather than individuals.
And sometimes being kind is not the right approach. This is something I struggle with - when confrontation is called for.
It's not about strategy, it's about observation and self reflection. That's how to develop your social intuition, and the self control to act on it. And that's how you can be effective.
Manipulative phonies are bad.
Social intuition is good.
As a tool for grifters and conmen to use against honest, sincere people.
Striving to be good at understanding other people does not make you a grifter or dishonest, you utter weirdo.
I like to read a room to get a sense of how this or that is being received. I find people are more helpful when I've managed not to piss them off.
You, I would guess, have some real trouble with that.
This white, male blog has set aside for a moment its fixation on drag queen-transgender sorority-Muslim-gay drama*-transgender parenting-lesbian-transgender bathroom issues to return to a traditional favorite: the place of bigoted language in modern America.
The questions that seem to fascinate the Volokh Conspirators (and their target audience of downscale bigots) include:
1) What is wrong with using racial slurs and bigoted language? 2) Who gets to decide what is a racial slur or bigoted language? 3) Who gets to decide when and whether racial slurs and bigoted language are acceptable? 4) When it is acceptable — or desirable — to use racial slurs and other bigoted language? 5) How can American law create safe spaces for those who want to express or hear vile racial slurs and bigoted language? 6) How objectionable is it that mainstream, liberal-libertarian institutions seem inhospitable to racial slurs, other expressions of bigotry, and bigots?
Carry on, clingers. So far as backwardness, insularity, bigotry, and superstition could carry anyone in modern, improving America, that is.
(* Peter Thiel gets a pass, of course)
"1) What is wrong with using racial slurs and bigoted language? "
Professor Volokh has offered several articles on the use-vs-reference distinction for bigoted terms, and in them condemns the use, and defends the reference, at times to further the condemnation of the use.
He doesn't condemn the use of vile racial slurs (or bigoted language in general). With respect to vile racial slurs, he incites them, then claims they meet his "civility standards" and lets them remain in the comments (while censoring other comments).
Get your nose out of his ass and smell the bigotry that pervades this blog -- by design.
Yet you continue to participate.
It's a marketplace of ideas. No free swings for clingers.
Also, mocking deplorable right-wingers, and preventing bigots from hiding behind euphemisms (by calling a bigot a bigot), are worthwhile endeavors.
Is it still acceptable to use the phrase "language policing"?
"after a certain point, most people will comply with social norms not to use particular words and phrases and symbols"
Objections to certain usages as impolite are not the only force acting to change language. The language moves in a way beyond the control of any single speaker, or policer of language. To be understood, or to be heard at all, one unfortunately must use words the way others use them.
Imma used as "I am going to"
way as an adverb
You might want to look into CCP policy on racial citizenship, it might change your mind.
I don’t in fact see any objection to calling men from China Chinamen, either, though Chinese works just fine for me as long as I feel no occasion to cuss them out (when I wouldn’t say anything so pallid as “Chinamen”, anyway). As to goat fuckers, if you want to self-identify I can’t see any problem with calling you that. If you don’t like the name no one is forcing you to tell the rest of us what goes on in your pen with your asshole friends. As long as you don’t make a public spectacle of yourself I see no need to go into it.
Yeah, that's stupid, too.
I'm with George Carlin on cripples: we use soft language to evade reality.
From Gandydancer's perspective, you should use "fag" to emphasize the "reality" of the "dysfunction." So perhaps it's a good thing for people to use "fag" and other words so we know for certain they are unreconstructed bigots.
He puts the cart before the horse. “Here, use this new term which doesn’t carry all the racist baggage.”
People start using it. 10 minutes later they start using it in racist ways, so it adopts a new connotation. Move on to the next clean phrase. Clean…for now.
SNL once mocked that in a Civil War sketch.
We’ve also seen it with “retarded”, which moved on to special, differently abled, not neurotypical, etc. It got disfavored from culture when I was a kid, then made a resurgence around 2000 for some reason.
The euphemism treadmill makes that kind of error: Rather than trying to resolve the fundamental issue of bigots putting bigotry into words, treadmill operators -- like the third student in Eidelson's hypothetical -- try to force everyone else to avoid words that bigots use. Acceding to that process gives both bigots and censors too much power.
Jesus, people who knew, loved or worked with the mentally disabled wanted to talk to and about them using words that hadn't become casual, ugly, everyday insults, and everyone acted as if they were doing something wrong or outrageous or stupid. This sums up everything about people mad over political correcteness. They think it's about *them.*
https://naacp.org/
what a bunch of Race-ists!
We’re all colored, so I don’t see any reason to call Negros “Colored”. But (a) as Frank notes, obviously the NAACP must not agree with you about the inherent “negative baggage” of the term, and (b) a better analogy is a claim that “negro” has such baggage, and you should use “Black” (which actually has exactly the same meaning, but without the clique-membership signaling).
I have also noted the silly oversensitivity of Eidelson in the case of “homosexual”, which apparently also has “negative baggage”, at least in the eyes of extreme snowflakes like you and him.
And I say, “The hell with that!”
So NAACP was founded by White racists, and MLK’s use of Negro is offensive?
If homos demand that they be called "gay" (again, read the essay: "homosexual" is now , he tells us, discourteous") that demand has nothing to do with "simple courtesy". It's aggression.
Hardly.
Now do your comments about the sexual activities of people's mothers.
It's actually a fairly serious human rights issue that you are clearly too obtuse to understand, and there are two dimensions to it.
First is how they treat their own citizens who aren't of "Chinese" ancestry (as they define it) and I am particularly referring to the Uyghurs and here is the BBC on that: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
Secondly, the CCP is increasing defining a "Chinese Citizen" as anyone of ethnic Chinese ancestry regardless of nationality, with such persons having a duty of loyalty to the CCP and not their own countries.
You do realize that we don't accept the notion that saying things people don't want you saying is "assault", either, don't you?
Well, you're not, are you?
Well, you know, a friend of mine has a Downs syndrome kid, and honestly, the kid likely wouldn’t care, because he doesn’t pick up on things like that. He’s doing good to pick up on short declarative sentences like “Don’t put that in your mouth!”
What you’re talking about is an instance of the euphemism treadmill, EVERY term for being ‘slow’ or what have you ends up with negative connotations, because they’re words denoting something that’s negative in reality. So there’s no winning, really, you can’t discuss the topic AT ALL without somebody being unhappy.
I’ll use euphemism when trying to spare somebody’s feelings, where I care about their feelings, but I won’t allow somebody to dictate the denotations I can communicate by declaring all the terms I can express them in to be insulting or hurtful.
So, when the left demands that I must call a woman a man, or visa versa, because that’s what they want to be called? NO. Sex is denotation, not connotation. This is a demand to not tell the truth, not a request to put it gently.
Yeah, well, life is not, in fact, "full" of rules you need to follow, because we're a free people. It falls well short of full, and I don't appreciate efforts to top it off.
"But good human beings make an honest attempt to keep up with that so as not to offend."
And bad human beings try to exploit that to dictate what other people can talk about, and prevent them from discussing inconvenient truths.
No, he means that they get regularly insulted, and think, "I'm as entitled to play that game as anybody else."
Again with the Ad-Homo attacks, don't make me whip out (get it? whip out) my Floyd George jokes
Frank "Floyd George, Tupac, and MLK walk into a Bar...."
Almost as bad as extorting a paraplegic to, lets go to the Video Tape!!!
BIDEN: "And I also, I'm told that Chuck Graham, state senator is here. Chuck, stand up, Chuck, good to see you. Oh, God love you, what am I talking about? I tell you what, you’re making everybody else stand up, though, pal. Thank you very, very much. I tell you what, stand up for Chuck. Thank you, pal. Did you tell I'm new? Good to see you, buddy. Thank you."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkr-lePr7jA
No need. I already never engage in the stupidity of calling cripples “differently abled”.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/04/10/additional-thoughts-on-the-etiquette-of-equality/?comments=true#comment-10012244
Well, I might call the latter a "bottle blonde", actually. Or just have a private chuckle over the brown roots. So long as nothing consequential depended on their actual hair color. Like, if I were testifying in court, I wouldn't say she was a blonde, I'd be accurate.
And I'd likely humor Piyush's desire to be called Bobby, so long as, again, nothing consequential hinged on it. I assume 'Bobby' isn't trying to obscure a record as a sex offender, to name a random reason somebody might change their name.
Look, your "name" is an arbitrary designator, it means you, and not really anything more. I mean, you name somebody "Victor" it doesn't really mean they won a contest, right? While it's stupid that a male former Olympian wants to go by the name "Caitlyn", Jenner DID get the name legally changed, so it's his name now.
But pronouns aren't arbitrary designators. They communicate information about the person being referenced, which information is capable of being true or false. So, if Caitlyn Jenner demands that people use "her" instead of "him" when referring to him, he's demanding that they communicate false information, that they lie.
He doesn't have a right that other people lie about him.
One of these is not like the other. I know, there're people (who call themselves "liberals"!) who'd like to make it illegal to use certain words (such as "bastard"). But, like Brett, I don't appreciate such efforts. I get to decide whether to use a euphemism to spare someone's feelings.
That falls so short of "full" you can't even see "full" from where we are.
When you’ve solved bigotry that’ll be great, until then people who, eg, work with the mentally disabled, would prefer to talk to and about them using words that haven’t been widely adopted as revolting insults.
'discussing inconvenient truths.'
I think this means to keep endlessly repeating arguments and assertions that have been relegated to obscurity because they're stupid or wrong.
Again, we're talking about efforts to impose speech restrictions on people. Big difference.
Verbal assault.
Everybody gets to make those decisions.
That's why I call the bigots who constitutes this blog's audience, and the bigots who cultivate that audience, bigots.
Say what you like, but you don’t get to dictate to other people as to whether or not those terms are insulting or hurtful. And if you use those terms because you don’t care about the feelings of whoever your talking to or about, neither are they obliged to refrain from criticising you out of deference to your feelings.
What's sauce for the goose... Yeah, I'm sure there's some of that going on. Who thinks they need to be easy on the feelings of people who regularly insult them?
I'm a breeder, why should I concern myself with the feelings of homosexuals?
I may have next to no instinctive gift for inter-personal relationships, but I compensate for it with a practically vertical learning curve and well developed survival instincts.
Not I, Queen.
As an INTP, I had to consciously learn how to interpret feelings, my own with more difficulty than those of others. But as an INTP, I interpret feelings in order to get to where the NT part of me needs to go.
Like gentle right wing posters here don’t regulalry indulge in a wide range of abusive language towards the libs. You could argue some of them are slurs, most of them are offensive, a surprising subset are pornography, for some reason, but since we ain’t a protected and oppressed minority, don’t constantly claim to be a victimised majority, and aren’t snowflakes, we takes our lumps.
Sure, there are those on the left who are dicks.
But your broad-spectrum dickery is going to assure a lot of collateral damage.
Unreconstructed bigots . . . and the target audience of a white, male, disaffected right-wing blog that has misappropriated the franchises of several legitimate academic institutions.
Cowards.
Bigots.
Partisans.
Censors.
Hypocrites.
The Volokh Conspiracy.
Yep. Buggery, like bestiality, disgusts me, and I have every right to continue to feel that way about it. And I will NOT be intimidated into calling it “gay” by pathetic scolds like you calling me names. Your impotent rage is just funny.
You are a bigoted, delusional, autistic, antisocial, obsolete, backwater, conservative Republican drag on modern America.
And the precise target audience of this polemical, disaffected right-wing blog.
None of that, thank goodness, is a problem the culture war and replacement will not solve.
Said "baggage" is imaginary. "Chinaman" isn't any more inherently "negative" than "Englishman". If one wants to express negative thoughts about the Chinese one would says "Chinks", or "slopes", or maybe "gooks".
I'm simply illustrating what Dr. Ed likely meant.
That's a relief. But never try and Edsplain.
But that's obviously awful - someone was mean to me liberalishly so I'm mean to all liberals.
Of course, around here, it's more like I read about someone being mean liberalishly so I've become a dick to everyone, but it's the same road.
You "think" that because you are both stupid and wrong.
They're right. It's absolutely about coercing *them*.
^^^ Attempted gaslighting, via misleading use of language.
Not for me.
Where have I complained, goat fucker?
But the reason you’re like a broken record on the subject is that you are a tedious shithead.
Open wider, bigot.
Or not.
Either way, you will continue to comply with the preferences of your betters. Losing a culture war has consequences.
I'm a tedious shit head.
This blog is operated by bigots for bigots -- bigots who are destined to lose the culture war and be replaced by better Americans, because bigotry is a loser at the modern marketplace of ideas.
I am content.
Gandydancer,
"Inherent" meaning has almost nothing to do with whether some term is a derogatory slur, neutral or positive. Irishman is not a currently a slur. Chinaman is a slur.
Why? Well... Why ask why? There may be some historical reason. I don't know it. But I know that these days, only people who are willing to offend the Chinese, and east Asians in general call Chinese people Chinaman. It's been a slur pretty much as far back as I remember and I"m 63 years old (and not Asian). This is not new.
And "Chinese" is a perfect acceptable term that has managed to be the not-impolite non-slur word for people who are actually Chinese (and not a catch all for all east Asians including Korean, Cambodian, Vietnamese etc.)
Besides that: I tend to say "He's French", "He's English", "He's Irish", or "He's German." not "He's a Frenchman", and certainly not "He's a Germanman". (Heck: Poleman? Swedman? NorwegianMan? )
So even when tacking on "man" doesn't make the citizen or heritage reference a slur, I don't do it. So I don't know why I would tack on the whole "man" go Chinese for no apparent reason. Given that "chinaman" has been a slur for a while, the apparent reason would generally seem to be to communicate a degree of disdain.
Those picking "Chinaman" instead of Chinese generally does signal a degree of animus on the users part.
Hey, you do you.
You really are a victim.