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Two (Wrong) Mifepristone Court Rulings in One Day
On Good Friday, two district courts issued decisions on the FDA's approval of the abortion drug mifepristone.
Late yesterday, a district court in Texas issued its much-anticipated ruling in Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. Food and Drug Administration, a challenge to the FDA's approval of the abortion medication mifepristone, which has been on the market for over two decades. As some hoped and others feared, the court ruled against the FDA, concluding that mifepristone should not be an approved medication.
By an amazing coincidence, a second district court, this one in Washington State, issued its own ruling in a competing mifepristone lawsuit soon after the Texas decision, issuing an order barring the FDA from altering the status of mifepristone, at least in the plaintiff states. (Interestingly enough, this is not the only time we've seen dueling opinions on a high-profile health-law question issued on the same day. The same thing happened with Halbig v. Burwell and King v. Burwell in 2014, creating a circuit split in a matter of hours. Go figure.)
I previewed some of the arguments in each case in prior posts. Here and here I explained why the district court in Texas lacked jurisdiction to hear AHM's claims against the FDA. Among other things, the plaintiffs lack standing, did not file within the relevant statute of limitations, and did not exhaust their administrative options. Nothing in the district court's opinion changes my view of these arguments. If anything, it reinforces them. Among other things, the court makes clear that the conclusion that AHM satisfies Article III standing requirements rests on outlier decisions like Havens Realty (which the Supreme Court may consider overturning, or simply abandoning, next term), which progressive groups like CREW tried to use in their emoluments litigation.
Additionally, the opinion's embrace of an expansive conception of equitable tolling and refusal to enforce the administrative exhaustion requirement rest on the most gossamer of threads -- the analysis reads more like what one would expect in a time-limited law-school exam than a thoughtfully considered judicial opinion. And the invocation of Section 705 of the Administrative Procedure Act to justify the unusual remedy of issuing a stay of the FDA's 2000 approval of mifepristone is too clever by five. No matter what one thinks of abortion or the availability of mifepristone, this opinion is hard to defend (and that's without getting into the merits of the issue).
As it happens, the second decision is no better. For reasons I explained here, the plaintiff states in that case face equivalent jurisdictional hurdles in demonstrating standing and exhaustion, particularly insofar as they were suing to maintain the status quo (as opposed to challenging the FDA's existing mifepristone rules as too restrictive). The Washington district court barely engages these arguments, waiving them away with conclusory statements unaccompanied by any meaningful analysis. It is enough to make a cynical observer think that the opinion was rushed for release, perhaps explaining the coincidental timing. Whatever the faults of the Texas ruling -- and there are many -- at least there is substantive analysis to critique. The Washington decision is more like a punt. Its one saving grace is that it does not attempt to justify nationwide relief and instead limits the effect of its injunction to the plaintiff states.
Where does this all leave us? The Texas decision stayed the effective date FDA's 2000 approval of mifepristone -- in effect suspending the approval (with a caveat that it would revoke the approval if the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit disapproves of the court's use of APA Section 705 in another case), but has also stayed the effective date of the decision by seven days to afford the government time to appeal. Meanwhile, the Washington decision has enjoined the FDA from "altering the status quo" concerning its regulation of mifepristone as of the FDA's January 2023 rules governing prescription and distribution of the drug within the plaintiff states. Thus, at least within those states, we would appear to have dueling injunctions (as happened with the DACA litigation), virtually guaranteeing quick action from appellate courts, if not the Supreme Court itself.
I hope to have more to say about both of these decisions shortly, time permitting.
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The left fights freeform while we observe the Marquess de Queensberry Rules — why didn’t Trump get competing injunctions from friendly courts???
In any case, I think that SCOTUS is going to finally have to rule on these national injunctions — which are problematic and arguably not legal. The one that comes to mind was a Federal Judge in Hawaii who set policy at Boston’s Logan Airport, some 6,000 miles away.
And I’ll admit to some schadenfreude here — the left *loves* to play lawfare, to get all kinds of injunctions (not to mention sue & settle) and this time its on them… They deserve it.
On a more serious note, SCOTUS likely will have to also deal with these pills being mailed interstate, and that will be good to have defined.
How exactly is going to a district with exactly one judge, known to be a religious opponent of abortion, and getting him to ignore centuries-old concepts of standing as well as statutes of limitation and more basic precepts of separation of powers in order to obtain a nationwide injunction blocking access to a drug that's been safely used for a quarter-century, "Marquess de Queensberry Rules"?
It's that we aren't following them anymore, either.
Or never were, but you need to preserve your illusions.
Ed, you literally said “…while we observe the Marquess de Queensberry Rules.”
So, are ‘we’ or aren’t we?
"So, are ‘we’ or aren’t we?"
From whence comes this irresistible impulse to prove how stupid you are? Ed literally said in so many words “we aren’t following them anymore”. What part of that sentence used words too complicated for you to understand?
Possibly, the part which incredibly implies that none of the "we" has ever done anything comparable to the "this".
What a pathetic straw man. No, even if Ed’s post had implied that “we” have NEVER “done anything comparable” (which it does not, though it certainly implies that grossly abusive lawfare is disproportionately the province of Lefty, which is a different assertion and a true one) that wouldn’t justify Purple ignoring Ed’s clear advocacy that we not play the gormless victim of it going forward and that this case is a good example of what ought to be done. .
You don't think the right is ruthless enough, because your idea of ruthless is always laughably authoritarian and won't work.
Why doesn't Trump get freed by getting an injunction by judge shopping? Because even if he could find a judge, that shit wouldn't fly in America.
You can't seem to realize that, because you don't stand for Joe Six-Pack, you stand for yourself. Angry and dumb. But mostly dumb.
Then why is it supposed to fly now?
It doesn't - I agree with the OP. Which you should consider reading.
It's Bragg's puerile partisan lawfare that isn't going to fly. The answer to why Trump is playing along with getting it on stage is that it benefits him everywhere outside the echo chambers of his committed enemies (and even there there's quite a bit of queasiness -- see for example Somin's complaints).
Where is the benefit to Donald Trump from being prosecuted in Manhattan? And how is he "playing along with getting it on stage"? It is not as if he has a choice in the matter.
Indeed he did, as he had no immediate need to show up in Manhattan at all. As to the benefits of being prosecuted by a Left Loony Soros DA on patently bogus charges, a DA famous for letting arrested criminals back loose on the citizenry and charging the law-abiding with the crime of defending themselves from same, you need to get out of your silo more often as it’s preventing you from seeing the obvious.
I didn’t read Somin’s piece since I think he’s a worthless shithead, but glancing at it as IU scrolled past it seemed he was whining about Bragg discrediting more plausible (in his mind) charges to be filed later. And, yes, it will discredit them.
"I didn’t read Somin’s piece since I think he’s a worthless shithead, but glancing at it as IU scrolled past it seemed he was whining about Bragg discrediting more plausible (in his mind) charges to be filed later. And, yes, it will discredit them."
So you comment on a post that you acknowledge not having read? (In your case, that actually is plausible.) But where, pray tell, has Professor Somin commented on Bragg's conduct of a prosecution? (The instant post is by Professor Adler, on a very different topic.)
And how do you surmise that one prosecution will discredit other prosecutions, brought by different authorities, in different jurisdictions, which will be tried to different juries?
“But where, pray tell, has Professor Somin commented on Bragg’s conduct of a prosecution?”
The “glancing at it as [I] scrolled past it” might have given you a clue, if your brain were functional.https://reason.com/volokh/2023/04/07/a-water-pistol-unnecessarily-preceding-a-missile-launching-f-35-attack-thoughts-on-the-new-york-trump-indictment/
As to my commenting on a piece I hadn’t read, that it “seemed he was whining about Bragg discrediting more plausible (in his mind) charges to be filed later” it was only necessary to read the headline (or see the url) to reach that conclusion, at least tentatively. Even YOU know what the word “seems” means, don’t you?
The observation that Trump might be hoping that the Bragg indictment hit first is anyway a commonplace among anti-Trump Bragg skeptics. In fact I think I heard it again on a Reason podcast. Bragg is discrediting the whole idea of indicting Trump. I already explained the logic of this, so there’s no point in simply explaining it to you again if you didn’t follow it the first time.
This is a political observation, not a legal one. Does that help?
Of course, hoping to avoid criminal indictment (likely under the Espionage Act), Trump did try judge shopping. But it turned out the 11th Circuit ruled Cannons don't fly.
Neither do pigs wearing lipstick. But (D)s didn't learn anything from two impeachments going splat and are trying again.
Judge shopping wouldn't fly in America?
Are you stupid?
Mostly he's an unshameable poseur.
The practical question is whether either side will have 5 votes on the Supreme Court and I doubt it. Alito and Thomas will vote for anything that makes abortion hard to get. Kagan, Jackson and Sotomayor will vote for anything that makes abortions easier to get. The others have demonstrated some integrity on issues like standing, jurisdiction and statutory construction. My prediction is a plurality dismissing both cases but I wouldn’t bet the rent.
My bet is a 7-2 or 8-1 decision overturning both decisions for lack of standing. This is such a shoddy case to use as a basis for attacking abortion access that it would require ignoring a half-dozen unrelated principles important to conservatives as well as liberals in order to achieve any substantive relief at all. Kavanaugh, Gorsuch and Barrett may not like abortion, but they'd dislike a doctor in Massachusetts being able to sue to reverse an ATF decision from 25 years ago on the theory that it makes it more likely they may have to treat a gunshot victim even more.
If it can be shown that Thomas has been wined and dined by the anti-abortion group with an office across the street from the Court, should Thomas sit on the case? How about the other conservatives?
This is such a stupid argument that never gets applied to your side.
How could you, a committed anti-semite, forget Soros? Soros this, Soros that, Soros the other.
Well, the last justice to actually be forced off the court for corruption was Abe Fortas, a Democrat. Granted that was 50 years ago.
Democrat Alcee Hastings, District Judge, was so corrupt they impeached him and then elected him to Congress. He was in Congress until he died.
I actually don’t find Hastings all that problematic because his constituents had the ability every two years to remove him from office and chose not to do so. I think the voters have the right to decide for themselves how much to care about personal corruption.
With Clarence Thomas, however, he does not have to face the voters so the analysis is a little different. If I were John Roberts I would be heavily lobbying ole Clarence that maybe it’s time for him to think about retiring.
"If I were John Roberts I would be heavily lobbying ole Clarence that maybe it’s time for him to think about retiring."
That presupposes that Justice Thomas is amenable to persuasion. I haven't seen any evidence of that.
You think Roberts should be lobbying for him to retire while Democrats are in a position to nominate the replacement? Does that sound realistic?
It sounds like the right thing to do. Thomas does not belong on the court after taking what amounts to gifts from lobbyists. This would be Roberts’ big opportunity to show that doing the right thing still counts for something.
NG is probably right that there’s no reason to believe Thomas would do the right thing and retire, but that would then be on Thomas rather than Roberts. It would be nice if the other 8 would unite to make him a pariah.
You think Thomas would have voted differently had he declared the gifts? Interesting.
I don’t think that matters. There was a very famous judicial impeachment in which the judge’s defense was that he had taken bribes from both sides and then ruled the way he would have anyway. He was convicted and removed from office as, in my opinion, he should have been.
There's no way of really knowing, but every decision is now tainted by corruption.
You have more faith in the election system than I do.
90% incumbency rate is a very bad smell.
I have great faith that without gerrymandering that would no longer be the case, and in this case it was Florida Republicans who were doing the gerrymandering.
That aside, there are many things that can only be fixed by the voters and this is one of them.
Voters can fix gerrymandering? The whole point of gerrymandering is to prevent the voters from fixing anything.
Sure in the same sense that people who oppose the electoral college can amend the Constitution.
Voters can fix gerrymandering? The whole point of gerrymandering -is to prevent the voters from fixing anything.
------------------------------
+1
The problem with Hastings (and others) is that he represented a minority set-aside district that is gerrymandered to ensure a Black candidate wins it. He wouldn't have won in a competitive district.
As to Thomas, he (a) isn't doing anything that others have done before him and (b) has been an outsider for so long that he likely wouldn't care about peer pressure. We'd have a much more conservative SCOTUS if none of them could socialize in Georgetown.
Wasn't Hastings also convicted?
Ginsburg was quite active on the other side doing the same as thomas.
Whats you point - other than the deny the hypocrisy
What did Ginsburg fail to disclose?
The question was about wining and dining. Do you deny that Ginsberg was wined and dined by entities with partisan agendas, or are you suggesting she disclose those in her filings?
Do you posit that Ginsburg was wined and dined by entities with partisan agendas? If so, what are the details?
Of COURSE she was wined and dined by entities with partisan agendas. Those are the ones that got her on the court, and they didn’t stop celebrating her at that point. Research the details yourself — I won’t waste my time on proving the obvious and expected. What for? I’M not the one pretending that it’s a deep dark sin or contrary to law.
IOW you have no supporting facts -- you have only the ipse dixit assertion that "OF COURSE" something happened. Why am I unsurprised?
You are pathetic.
So, Ginsberg WASN’T out and about being wined and dined and celebrated as the Lefty icon (“the notorious RBG!”), the way we all saw she was… unless I come up with a copy of her daily schedule of appearances?
And up is down and boys are girls.
The Lefty religion is strong in you and impervious to observation and facts. But, what else is new?
I won’t call you pathetic. There’s no pathos, only a determined ridiculousness.
Ah so the problem is she was *popular.* That's not an ethical breach.
Nige 2 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Ah so the problem is she was *popular.* That’s not an ethical breach."
Same with Thomas - not an ethical breach
Try to be intellectually consistent
Thomas is not popular, Thomas has accepted massive amounts of largesse from a billionaire with a Nazi festish without declaring it. I realise that literally every awful thing you people defend can only be done so through straining and sweating to draw false equivalences, but honestly that only works as stories you tell yourselves.
Nige - Your harping on Thomas while absolving Ginsburg is typical of your inability to be intellectually consistent and honest.
Except there's nothing to absolve Ginsberg for - she complied with the ethics guidelines, he did not. He was obviously and blatantly in the pocket of a Nazi-curious billionaire, she was not.
Nige - you continue to confirm your intellectual dishonesty
Joe - Nige made a clear distinction between the two Justices.
Rather than engage with that, you just insult him as though he'd never made the argument.
You do that a lot when you're cornered - ignore the counterargument and just call names.
What an asshole.
No, I continue to point out the base dishonesty of the false equivalence.
Nige 9 hours ago
"No, I continue to point out the base dishonesty of the false equivalence."
Perhaps you are resorting to a false "false equivalence" because its more convenient than admitting your double standard.
Sarcastr0 ” Nige made a clear distinction between the two Justices.”
Let’s review: Lathrop “If it can be shown that Thomas has been wined and dined by the anti-abortion group with an office across the street from the Court, should Thomas sit on the case?” Joe_dallas : “Ginsburg was quite active on the other side doing the same as thomas.” Nige “What did Ginsburg fail to disclose?” me: “The question was about wining and dining. Do you deny that Ginsberg was wined and dined by entities with partisan agendas, or are you suggesting she disclose those in her filings?” Nige : “Ah so the problem is she was *popular.* That’s not an ethical breach.” Joe_dallas :Same with Thomas – not an ethical breach” Nige “Except there’s nothing to absolve Ginsberg for – she complied with the ethics guidelines, he did not.”
So, Nige’s “clear distinction is in fact simply a lie about Thomas. In fact Thomas ALSO complied with the guidelines, which did NOT require him to report personal hospitality or hospitality incident to special occasions like events honoring him, etc. Going forward he has said he will comply with new requirements. Meanwhile BOTH Thomas and Ginsberg had been “wined and dined” by politically active groups, as we all know by observation and which I have documented to exactly the same degree as Lathrop documented his original insinuation that Thomas had done something improper..
No, the question was about non-disclosure of colossal amounts of wining and dining.
You lie. Lathrop: "“If it can be shown that Thomas has been wined and dined by the anti-abortion group with an office across the street from the Court..." No "colossal" there.
Thomas has not in fact been accused of accepting anything "colossal". Crowe's yacht is pretty colossal, but Thomas' use of the use of a cabin or suite in it doesn't thereby acquire that quality except in your fevered imagination.
Former Justice Ginsburg accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars in opulent gifts for personal consumption and failing to disclose it?
Her husband received waves of undisclosed money from advocacy groups focused on issues before the Court?
Your response will establish how delusional and/or stupid you are.
Ah, good Rev.
It's like the only languages you can speak and understand are the puerile tongues of Ad-hom and Yellow Journalism.
When Ruth Bader Ginsburg moved up from the Court of Appeals to SCOTUS, Martin Ginsburg left a lucrative tax law practice and went back into teaching to avoid possible conflicts.
When Clarence Thomas made the same move, Virginia Thomas became his bagwoman. For many years, Justice Thomas falsely stated on financial disclosure forms that his wife had no income. He is fortunate that he was not prosecuted then under 18 U.S.C. § 1001.
Actual facts! Oh noes it hurts us it does!
"Her husband received waves of undisclosed money from advocacy groups focused on issues before the Court?"
The problem with all the ethics laws is that they were written 50 years ago when wives didn't have careers. The problem with SCOTUS is that they don't *have* an ethical code for hospitality, and of course the wealthy's hospitality is going to be more expensive.
Fortas continued to serve as an adviser to Johnson after becoming an associate justice. He attended White House staff meetings, advising the president on judicial nominations and discussed private Supreme Court deliberations with him. In 1966, he substantially edited an initial version of Johnson's State of the Union Address.
Reality is that Thomas hasn't done any of that -- and he's not going to be impeached, nor does Merritt Garland have the credibility that Mitchell did in 1968.
Yeah, a Trump admin guest of the Nazi-collecter guy has argued before Congress against such ethics rules being tightened. Wonder why.
You like to make up allegations without proving anything, ever.
Why don't you show your work for this bullshit? Show everyone your proof for how Ginsburg was 'doing the same' as Thomas.
Be sure to include the 25 year history of illegally accepting gifts and bribes for both herself and her husband. Please also include when she heard cases related to her husband before the court without recusal, and her eye-rolling excuse that she accepted bad legal advice that she neither had to say something, nor stop accepting the bribes.
And yes, I'm quite aware that you're going to pretend that Thomas didn't accept any bribes. Legally that might be true, but ethically you'd be attempting nothing more than polishing a turd.
He became 'friends' with Crow after becoming a Supreme Court Justice. The gifts and luxuries piled upon him and his cunt wife were not a coincidence unrelated to his job.
“…25 year history of illegally accepting gifts and bribes… I’m quite aware that you’re going to pretend that Thomas didn’t accept any bribes. Legally that might be true…”
If you find you have to admit “might be true” to something you so badly don’t want be true we can easily draw the appropriate conclusion.
As to “[Thomas] and his cunt wife”, puerile insults from fuckwads like you are just pigshit on the bottom of Thomas’ shoe, the occasionally unavoidable consequence of feral swine being on the loose.
Nah
I know what looks feacking dirty even if I don’t think I could convince 12 retards such as yourself
Your point?
I don’t take it to be any job of mine to to convince actual retards like you of anything whatsoever. But the points I made are perfectly clear to anyone who isn’t a cretin. I even added appropriate bolding to the quote, but I can’t fix determinedly stupid.
Where'd you go, Joe?
You wouldn't make a bullshit claim and then run off like a bitch when someone demands that you actually provide an iota of evidence for your allegations, would you?
Who is going to respond to a commentator showing such a lack of maturity
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2019/06/scotus-justices-rack-up-trips/
Jason & Nige
As previously stated - neither of you make any attempt to be informed or intellectually honest.
The fact that you believe this shows 'exactly the same thing' that Thomas has done indicates nothing more than the fact you're the dumbest person here.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pfds.opensecrets.org/N99999918_2018.pdf
Is that a full accounting of Thomas's ethical failures? His wife's?
More than 20 years he's been corruptly hiding his bribes and gifts. claiming he got bad advice about the legality of it.
You know who doesn't get to say they got bad legal advice? The nine fuckwads who sit on the SCOTUS.
As expected, your 'evidence' of your claim is nothing more than your own stupidity. You aren't informed. You're a partisan retard burying his head in the sand because 'your guy' is beyond any reproach for his reprehensible abuses of his lifetime tenure.
What was the occasion?
Or did you pull this hypothetical from your ass?
The purpose of a preliminary injunction is to preserve the status quo until a court can render a decision on the merits.
It boggles my mind how removing a product from the market that has been available for the last 20 years “preserves the status quo.”
Forget abortion -- think DRUG.
Quoting from a letter from a FDA official posted in the PDR -- "...many drugs carry risks, whether they are known at the time of marketing or emerge as the drug is used postmarket in large, heterogeneous patient populations."
In English -- they don't know if a drug is going to be dangerous. The classic example of this is Thalidomide...
Quoting from a NIH document: "Thalidomide was a widely used drug in the late 1950s and early 1960s for the treatment of nausea in pregnant women. It became apparent in the 1960s that thalidomide treatment resulted in severe birth defects in thousands of children." See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21507989/
This is a true story, you can look it up, and the birth defects were grotesque -- missing arms & legs, flippers instead of arms, etc. -- there are plenty of pictures on the internet if you really want to see them. And according to the NYT, it got to the point where President Kennedy publicly told American women to "check their medicine cabinets" and make sure they weren't taking it.
So yes, it *can* take 20 years to realize that a drug is toxic. One hypothetical -- I REPEAT HYPOTHETICAL would be if it caused infertility. It well might take 20 years to learn that as the women who took it when they were in college proceeded to get married and then want to have children -- and the only way you could tell would be statistically which means that it might take more than 20 years to find this out. Or say it predisposed her (later born) children to some sort of esoteric cancer -- or the woman herself. That would only be learned years later.
Memory is that this pill is manufactured in China because no US manufacturer wanted the liability -- do you see the issue?
And then does the Federal government ever make a medical decision on a political basis? Can you say "Fauci" and "mask mandates"?
I haven't seen the briefs of the Texas case and probably wouldn't quite understand them if I did, but one thing that hypothetically could be argued would be that (a) this pill was prematurely approved as the result of political pressure from the Clinton Administration and either (b) we are now seeing adverse events and/or (c) the FDA has not done the due diligence to see if there are any.
And it's like grounding the Boeing 737 MAX airplanes -- if you can credibly argue the above, the only thing to do is to remove the drug from the market until you can figure out if it is really safe or not.
There's a difference between ordering an agency to take a new action - suspending approval of a drug on the argument that new side effects have emerged - and revoking an action that was taken a quarter-century ago - _revoking_ an approval on the argument that procedures weren't properly followed back then. The latter is effectively what this case argues. We have a six year statute of limitations for appealing federal agency actions, not 26 years.
The approval was in 2000, then there were administrative appeals for 16 years; only then did the limitation period start to run. But even so, it still expired before the present action was instituted. So while I don't quibble with the conclusion that "the SOL is so expired, dude!" ... maybe check your math 🙂
My math says 2000 + 16 + 6 = 2022.
I’m unfamiliar with this case, but on the first page of the order I find:
"Simply put, FDA stonewalled judicial review — until now. Before Plaintiffs filed this case, FDA ignored their petitions for over sixteen years, even though the law requires an agency response within “180 days of receipt of the petition.” 21 C.F.R. §
So 10.30(e)(2)). But FDA waited 4,971 days to adjudicate Plaintiffs’ first petition and 994 days to adjudicate the second. See ECF Nos. 1-14, 1-28, 1-36, 1-44 (“2002 Petition,” “2019 Petition,” respectively). Had FDA responded to Plaintiffs’ petitions within the 360 total days allotted, this case would have been in federal court decades earlier. Instead, FDA postponed and procrastinated for nearly 6,000 days."
So Glaucomatose would appear to be misinformed in thinking the case is no longer timely.
The lawsuit was filed on November 18, 2022. FDA had rejected the plaintiffs’ 2002 Petition on March 29, 2016. The filing was untimely by more than seven months.
As I said, I haven't bothered to go beyond the first page, but I presume that there must be an exhaustion of asdministrative remedies and the quote includes mention of a "2019 petition" (which the FDA took "994 days to adjudicate") which you, too, appear to have missed. Somehow.
Again commenting on something you haven't read? Don't forget Molly Ivins' First Rule of Holes: stop digging!
The 2019 petition did not result in the FDA reopening any earlier action. Judge Kacsmayrk posits that it did, but he is at best mistaken.
As I understand what Judge Kacsmayrk says, the FDA dragged its feet 994 days before responding to 2019 petition and the plaintiff's had not exhausted administrative remedies before it did, which is what presumably started the clock on any timeliness concern. If you have some non-motivated reasoning as to why this is not true feel free to provide it. But on your prior performance here I see no reason to hold my breath.
Quoting from a NIH document: “Thalidomide was a widely used drug in the late 1950s and early 1960s for the treatment of nausea in pregnant women. It became apparent in the 1960s that thalidomide treatment resulted in severe birth defects in thousands of children.”
Why are you quoting from an NIH document? Oh yeah, because Thalidomide was never approved in the US, the fact of which tends to undercut your argument.
Thalidomide is also the specific reason why drug approval is so much more stringent now (especially for drugs taken during pregnancy, though I'm not sure if that applies for abortifacients).
So yes, it *can* take 20 years to realize that a drug is toxic.
In your UK example Thalidomide was approved in 1958 and pulled in 1961.
So aside from NIH and FDA being different, 3 and 20 being very different numbers, and the entire approval system having massively changed decades ago in specific response to the example you brought up...
Bang on with your example!!
One hypothetical — I REPEAT HYPOTHETICAL would be if it caused infertility. It well might take 20 years to learn that as the women who took it when they were in college proceeded to get married and then want to have children — and the only way you could tell would be statistically which means that it might take more than 20 years to find this out.
I love how you were writing out this point only to realize that women in their early 40s were already reaching the end of their fertility. But instead of deleting a dumb argument you decided to throw in the word "statistically" and declare victory!
First abortion at 18, married a decade later at age 28, tries to have child for 10 years, to age 38. My math works.
Good thing that’s a testable hypothesis.
So … where’s the evidence?
Anyone? Anyone?
Bueller?
You posit a hypo that the anti-abortion crowd would be salivating over if it were real. They'd be trumpeting it from the mountaintops. FOX New chyrons, baby. Absence of evidence is not always evidence ... but. Seriously, try to rub two brain cells together for a second.
Bueller's off. It's Saturday (Dumbass)
It's only been significantly used for 10 years.
So wait.
Ten years of general use is not enough? We should have what, fifteen, twenty years of clinical trials for new drugs?
But then, even after that they still wouldn’t have been in general use.
So what you and Dr. Ed are saying is that no drug should ever be approved, because thalidomide.
What I am saying is IF it caused infertility, we wouldn't know yet.
Except it’s been in general use for twenty three years without any cases of causing infertility.
That's idiotic,as usual.
Do we know whether women who have taken the drug subsequently had children?
Is there plausible mechanism whereby the drug might cause infertility?
Have there been a lot of cases of infertility among women who previously took it?
Seems like we should know the answers.
Well if you want to keep embarrassing yourself the approval was in 2000, so you're actual looking at 23 years (making your math even more tenuous). Not to mention the fact that it's been used in the UK since the mid-90s.
But that's beside the point. You're basing all of this on hypothetical harms that have never been demonstrated, nor has a plausible mechanism been offered. You're just inventing straws to grasp at.
Why don't we just pull the approval of every drug after 20+ years? Oh yeah, because you only want to do it to the ones you're ideologically opposed to.
Thalidomide is one of FDA’s big success-stories.
In Germany they had thousands of victims born with horrible birth-defects; in USA, fewer than twenty (not
twenty-thousand; I mean TWENTY, as in the number of your fingers plus the number of your toes) Thalidomide victims TOTAL. Why? Because a determined FDA official named Frances Oldham Kelsey steadfastly refused to approve Thalidomide for use in pregnant women, in spite of very high-pressure lobbying by the manufacturers and by over-enthusiastic free-market freaks.Thalidomide isn't just "one of" the FDA's big success-stories. It's basically the ONLY big success-story the FDA has. They've been milking it for all it's worth for well over half a century.
Have you done any research to make you say that?
Antibiotic resistance should be a lot worse but for the FDA.
The FDA does foundational research into the process of drug development that has made vaccine development faster.
Of course most success stories from the FDA are just unsafe drugs you've never heard of, right?
You don't know what you're talking about. Do you even know what the term "good manufacturing protocols" means? (It's a technical term with a special meaning.)
Okay. Let’s say this was Thalidomide, and that Thalidomide had been on the market for 20 years, but that someone was in a position to prove at trial that Thalidomide did all of the bad things we now know it does. I would still be asking “isn’t the status quo that Thalidomide has been on the market for 20 years? And how is taking it off the market prior to a trial on the merits preserving the status quo?”
And I would be asking that because a temporary injunction isn’t a free-standing vehicle to accomplish good in the world, it is a specific procedural device.
I don’t deal with the APA in my real life, so I cannot comment on the merits here. But I do deal with temporary injunctions, so I am commenting on the procedure. And I don’t see anything in the Texas decision that addresses the high bar necessary to issue a preliminary injunction that alters the status quo.
Since it took the UK a mere 3 years to reverse the approval of Thalidomide, I would strongly suspect the evidence would be strong enough to justify a PI in the hypothetical where it's been on the market 20 years, and someone only just now noticed 20 years of flipper babies.
The competent evidence is that the risks of correctly using mifepristone in the FDA-approved manner are less than both alternatives of surgical abortion and carrying to term. Yes, that risk is non-zero. But as you note, that's not the right basis for comparison. Judge Kacsmaryk's PI harm analysis is laughably bad.
How could Thalidomide have stayed on the market for 20 years? People started seeing the birth-defects in less than two years, after it went on the market.
IIRC it's useful in Leprosy, you know, that huge Leprosy Epidemic the last few years (Masks actually might be advised if you're around Lepers)
Certain sorts of cancer, too.
Fair enough; I should have said "How could thalidomide for pregnant women be on the market for 20 years?"
Delaying new drugs 20 years to be sure mass murders on a world war scale.
We should shorten the time, not extend it, and just eat the handful of extra deaths caused, because that will be way less than with a mere 10 year delay.
That doesn't match with suing lawyer business model, though, nor pontificating politician, where a dead bird in the hand is worth 100,000 due to delayed drug introduction.
"It boggles my mind how removing a product from the market that has been available for the last 20 years “preserves the status quo.”"
You are mixing the two cases up. The injunction that "preserves the status quo" is in the Washington state case not the Texas case. The injunction is to prevent the FDA from taking the drug off the market in the plaintiff states.
I am not mixing the cases up. I am talking about the Texas case, and how it applies the standard that is supposed to be applicable to both cases.
The judge in the Texas case half-heartedly acknowledges the rule that the general purpose of preliminary injunctions is to preserve the status quo. Slip op. at *64. The judge then seems to imply that it is the pre-2000 status quo that is worth preserving. Id. at *64-65. He then quickly says that upsetting the (scare quotes) “status quo” isn’t a reason to deny an injunction. Id. at *65.
I find the above-referenced analysis incomplete at best.
A conservative judicial ruling....by a federal district judge in Texas...that limits abortion access....
Someone turn on the Blackman signal!
Ha!
More proof where none was needed that Dobbs will prove to be the most comprehensively regretted political victory in modern politics. The crazy right wing had already accomplished a near-impossibility—to score two own-goals simultaneously. As elections in Kansas and Wisconsin had shown, they awakened a new generational enemy, and filled it with resolve, while at the same time depriving themselves of a potent lever which for decades worked with near perfection to maximize turnout by their own base.
Apparently even that double catastrophe was insufficient to push pause on the crazy button. Now right wingers judge-shop their way to emphasize publicly that they lied when selling Dobbs as a return-the-power-to-the-states pro-federalism decision.
This all comes together just in time to jump the rheostat on spotlight wattage, illuminating Supreme Court corruption delivered by decades-long Federalist Society connivance on partisan appointments.
Good work right wingers. What you did will baffle political historians for centuries to come, so at least you accomplished that.
Stephen, think Thalidomide...
What if Mifepristone actually *is* unsafe?
We know that it's approval was both rushed and was political -- and it isn't even *in* my 2011 PDR so you gotta wonder.
Sure. If evidence emerges that it's unsafe over time, that should be presented to the FDA, and if they fail to act on that information, then that should be litigated through the courts. But that's not this case, and as of now, that evidence doesn't exist.
We know that it’s approval was both rushed and was political
Do we?
When it comes to knowing anything you don’t want to know you never do.
I’ll give you that.
Maybe Florida Department of Health can alter the data to give the result Dr Ed 2 wants. It won't make it true, but it doesn't seem you would care.
In deciding whether the "approval was both rushed and was political" I don't see the relevance of any subsequent data, but you don't care whether you are making an illogical argument, do you?
You think there's any limit to the data the Florida Department of Health would alter?
There was 12 years of data on safety and effectiveness of mifepristone in France when it was approved in 2000. So, not really rushed. Political? Certainly the criticism of it was entirely political - that it would result in more abortions, and not any challenges to its safety; that doesn't mean the approval was political in any way, and may actually have been slowed down given the opposition of anti-abortion groups. Subsequent data seems to have borne out the quality of that decision.
You could actually present some evidence that Dr Ed 2 is correct, if you're so concerned with the quality of arguments.
I am aware of no evidence that the Florida Department of Health has "altered" any data. Do you have any?
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2023/04/07/florida-surgeon-general-covid-19-vaccine-study-heart-problems-men/
gandydancer is a troll, but not a competent one.
So NO DATA was "altered". Choosing which data to include is an ordinary editorial function when writing any report. The Tampa Bay Times doesn't like the choices made... but who thinks IT doesn't have an agenda?
What if Mifepristone actually *is* unsafe?
WTF are you talking about, you moron?
It's been used for twenty years. Do you have a shred of evidence that it is unsafe? Is that not long enough?
of course its unsafe - for the baby / fetus.
It was created for the purpose of killing a living organism
of course its unsafe – for the baby / fetus.
And that is not what the plaintiffs in the case in Texas are arguing in court. Though it obviously is their real motivation.
This reminds me of the "only purpose is to kill" argument regarding (privately owned) firearms...
Both abortion drugs are reported to cause birth defects. If you are still pregnant after taking misoprostol they are going to try to persuade you to have an abortion. There is a large class of drugs that are known to be dangerous during pregnancy and prescribed anyway. I knew a woman who was prescribed accutane. She was offended by the pre-prescription counseling. They treated her like a slut who probably couldn't help getting pregnant. She told me if you do get pregnant while on the drug "they basically force you to have an abortion."
As for risks to the mother, both drugs are so commonly used that we can't be overlooking any serious and common side effects. As for a cost-benefit analysis, that depends on what you consider the benefit of a medication abortion to be. Biden's FDA is pro-abortion and will tolerate more risks than DeSantis' FDA.
Which raises the question of the pregnant woman in a red state (eg Texas) who receives it in the mail and takes it in Texas, where she can't get an abortion.
"More proof where none was needed that Dobbs will prove to be the most comprehensively regretted political victory in modern politics."
The goal of politics isn't power for its own sake. The goal is an outcome. Conservatives wanted to be able to save lives by banning abortion in their states; they succeeded. Your admonitions miss the point and will inevitably fall on deaf ears.
The goal of GOP politics is power for its own sake (and tax breaks for the rich).
Taking bodily autonomy away from women is one step on their road to theocracy.
They don't know how to avoid pregnancy -- hint, it involves not doing something else...
See? It is about punishing women for being sexually active.
The saddest thing from the Dobbs ruling is how many POC kids will be born that would otherwise have been sold in parts in a Democrat black market somewhere.
Ouch! that's gonna leave a mark (umm, well maybe not on POC)
FWIW I still don't understand how a Federal judge in one circuit can issue a nationwide injunction while a appellate ruling in the same circuit, it is agreed, is not binding nationwide.
My guess is the Washington judge realized the suit was dumb, but also wanted to save their district from the inevitable irreparable harm from Kacsmaryx's nationwide injunction.
Washington District Court Judge Thomas O. Rice laid out the specific reasoning on not granting a nationwide injunction.
All too uncommon common sense, not shared by the Texas District Court Judge.
Thank you for quoting the reasoning.
But wasn't that an exercise of discretion, such that it would also have been possible for a non-Texas judge to issue a contradictory nationwide injunction?
At least with a circuit split, you have a fighting chance of figuring out which law applies to you. In a hypothetical case of dueling national injunctions, which is only a matter of time, complying with the law would become impossible.
There have been critiques here of nationwide injunctions, or at least of how they're used today. Is the risk of contradictory ones another argument against?
Reassign Judge Rice to the Northern District of Texas, bound by Fifth Circuit precedent, and Judge Kacsmaryx to the District of Washington, bound by Ninth Circuit precedent. Trading places. A fate worse than death.
The defendants in the Texas case have already filed a notice of appeal.
Usually when medications kill people it's a bad thing, like just trying getting your hands on some Sodium Thiopental, just because it's been used in a few lethal injections.
And why would you use a short-acting drug?
I don't understand why they don't just use fentanyl -- a massive dose of it.
Usually the state specifies exactly which chemical is authorized. Fentanyl would work fine, as would Morphine, Sufentanil, Tylenol, Aspirin, Any Tricyclic Antidepressant,
As Fentanyl's the most used opiate in Anesthesia, diverting it for executions....OK, there's so few executions anymore, wouldn't really matter.
There is the old "Black Capsule" 50mg of Cyanide, provided to U2 Pilots in the 60's, converted to Hydrogen Cyanide in the Stomach, blocks all of your Cytochrome Oxidase enzymes, required for Oxidative Phosphorylation,
Long way of saying you lose consciousness in 20 seconds, dead not long after,
And you're even toxic to your "First Responders" if you like that kind of thing,
Frank
It has been beyond me why more states don't use nitrogen asphyxiation. It happens by accident now and again, and when they do rescue the victim of an accident they report no discomfort, just blacking out.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/13/1122620496/nitrogen-hypoxia-death-sentence-alabama
-dk
When a judge uses the term "eugenicists" on page 2 of an opinion in an abortion-related case, you can be pretty sure of the outcome of the case.
He also consistently uses the phrases “unborn child” or “unborn human”. Footnote 1, also on page 2, correctly explains that “fetus” isn’t the biologically correct term, almost acknowledges that the correct term is “embryo”, and hand waves his way out of using “embryo”.
This Country was founded by peoples who started as Embryos!
and back when you could joke about stuff and not get "Canceled"
Doctors would talk about putting milfepristone in the Water....
I liked it's old name better "RU-486" sounded like some radioactive element that would kill you in seconds, or the punchline to a joke in the tradition of "RU16-Yet"...
RU-486 initially developed as a medication for pre-menopausal symptoms, and found to have the unpleasant side effect of inducing abortions, (At least with Thalidomide you might have flippers like Flipper, but you were alive)
But one man's side effect is another man's desired affect.
Remember this Surgeon who used to joke about prescribing a "Swift Kick in the Ass" to lazy fucks trying to get out of work, hmm, something similiar could work here, no Judge in the World is going to be able to rule a "Swift Kick in the Uterus" Unconstitutional.
Frank
A rose by any other name. The term we use to refer to the thing has no bearing on the thing itself. Trouble yourself with weightier issues.
I'll trouble myself with what ever Ish-yews I want thank you very little! Like how does somebody "Stand Fast"?? I can run (sort of) fast, drink (of course) fast, drive fast, but how do you "Stand" fast??
and it has absolutely all bearing to do with the things itself, most Peoples will be "Pro-Choice" it's "Choice"!! it's "Pro"!! until you tell them it's for the choice to kill unborn babies (Hmm, if only Ann Dunham could have gotten a Scrip for some Milfesprestone in 1960, how the world would be different!)
Or "Pro-Life" who can be against Life?? (even "WHAM" wore those "Chose Life" T-shirts, they'd be "Cancelled" today
Frank
So many dumb rules, and rules about rules, and rules about rules about rules.
It’s no wonder most see a profession that almost exclusively serves itself.
What dumb rules, standing and jurisdiction? They are the fundamental checks on judicial power.
Apparently the rules are so awesomely conceived and crafted that judges and everyone else are routinely unable to follow them.
So you blame the rules for that.
"Routinely" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
The idea that standing and jurisdiction would be checks on judicial power reminds me of those powerful people and organizations who use privacy laws to conceal their own misdeeds.
That makes no sense at all. Perhaps you could have made the case that standing and jurisdiction aren't effective power checks because the judiciary themselves rule on them. But trying to insinuate that standing and jurisdiction are used to cover misdeeds is just ridiculous. Unless by misdeeds you actually mean decisions with which you disagree.
“They are the fundamental checks on judicial power.” There are obviously no fundamental checks on judicial power in operation now, if there ever were.
Lefty made this bed and now wants to complain about the condition it's in.
No sympathy from me.
You sound like the one complaining to me.
The Lefty whining about the TX decision preceded anything -I- wrote, so if it “sounds”” different than that to you then the problem is in the gelatinous mass between your ears.
Sick burn, dude. Your constant need to turn every topic into facile partisan drivel is lame and tiresome. Who exactly do you think you are convincing here?
What I'm doing is debunking YOUR partisan drivel, here the lame claim that "Lefty made this bed and now wants to complain about the condition it’s in" doesn't accurately describe what I was RESPONDING to.
Good grief, it really will be back alleys once more. This is horrifying
If the Texas decision stands there will still be an abortion drug on the market.
A lot of murders happen in back alleys
Conservatives would rather crime takes place in back alleys. Liberals want it to happen in the daylight, and to celebrate it. I'll take the former.
hobie 6 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Good grief, it really will be back alleys once more. This is horrifying"
fyi - the back alley reference (prior to the distortion by the pro death advocates) was the pregnant mothers entered the abortion offices through the back door. It was not in reference to back alley abortions.
Are you a woman, Joe? Do you understand the subjugation they go through? Can you appreciate that the laws this country enacted, the laws the new Supreme Court considers historically binding, had no involvement whatsoever from women until 1919?
Just pointing out you are using a term/phrase that has been intentionally mischaracterized.
How expensive is a bus ticket to California, anyway?
And won't the abortion providers give them out?
The profits on the abortion would cover the cost, you'd think,
You SOBs have a tough time imagining the thoughts and hopes of women
The imagination is strong in you.
Contact with reality and the ability to respond on point, not so much.
Mainstream historians, journalists, and legal analysts of the mid-21st century will identify which issue as the principal precipitate of the enlargement of the Supreme Court:
___ abortion
___ gun safety
___ bigotry (racism, gay-bashing, xenophobia, etc.)
___ election issues (gerrymandering, voting rights, etc.)
___ general partisanship
___ religion (special privilege for religion, establishment, etc.)
___ other
And the related irrelevance of the Supreme Court.
Add bribery and corruption to that, Rev
Justice Thomas' conduct -- I expect more revelations, but the information already available is adequate -- will ease enlargement of the Court but not precipitate it, in my judgment.
Jerry Sandusky, experienced in "Revelations" and "Judgements"
on the Judge Clarence Thomas Sexual Assault Scandal!
Hmm, Help me out Jerry, not finding any news about Judge Thomas being accused of
Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, seven counts of indecent assault, one count of criminal intent to commit indecent assault, nine counts of unlawful contact with minors, 10 counts of corruption of minors and 10 counts of endangering the welfare of children. (Whew!)
maybe you could help a "Brother" out
Frank
Frank, you need to go back to whatever cesspool blog you haunted before. This is a blog of intellectuals, both bigoted and normal
You have to be at least a little awed by Frank. He is one of those rare individuals who gets dumber and dumber by the day, and yet seems to be proud of his crudeness, bigotry, and ignorance.
Does he really believe the Rev. is Jerry Sandusky?
Lol, it's not obvious what (if anything) Frank actually believes. I am frankly amazed that anyone here more than a day or three gives him a straight answer.
Not that I don't enjoy his trolling....
Has been in use 20 years. Has anyone seen the work documenting the dangers?
Seems it causes fetal death pretty frequently.
Good! That's what we want.
Predominantly Black fetuses
Says the guy who never cares about blacks in any other context.
Like Martin Lucifer K said, I don't judge fetuses by the content of their character. I'll wait until they're born and do something to judge them
Martin Lucifer K??
Shall we wait for the apologists for Clarence Toady to pile on accusing Frank of racism? I for one am not holding my breath.
No point to it. Frank has never even pretended to be anything other than an open racist.
*citation required
c'mon, put up or shut up.
Primarily, and exclusively, unwelcome fetuses.
If you invited a friend to come over, would you describe them as "unwelcome" when they arrived? If they're unwelcome, don't invite them in the first place.
Liberalism can be understood as people fighting with all their might against simple cause and effect.
Man!
a world in which I could get rid of an "Inconvenient" person
with a drug??
OK, there's Cyanide, not that easy to get (and the Copays today!) and easily detectable,
OK, this one time, at band camp, there was a partner who was really despicable, didn't pull his weight, made offensive remarks, but had Coronary Artery Disease, so we kept taking him out to high end Steak Houses (Yes, Atlanta has High End Steak Houses) until he had an MI and died,
Frank
When I invite someone over to my home, I decide how long they may stay.
And if he stays too long, you kill him and sell his body parts.
Good to know.
I think it's a mistake to evaluate Kacsmaryk's ruling on this by the legal merits. I know it's what you VC guys do, but I think it's a waste of time here. Kacsmaryk is so obviously a partisan, deciding first what outcome he wants, and then finding reasons to justify that outcome, with a bit of window-dressing to for plausible deniability (like delaying implementation for one week so the government can appeal) that the legal justification or non-justification is just puff.
I'm quite sure that if someone were to mention the legal flaws and deficiencies to him under truth-serum, he'd answer "who cares?"
I think it’s a mistake to evaluate Kacsmaryk’s ruling on this by the legal merits. I know it’s what you VC guys do, but I think it’s a waste of time here.
Right. Neither Kacsmaryk nor his fans care one whit about that.
That's a reason to not bother evaluating a LOT of rulings, but somehow you only propound it for decisions you don't like.
Only a lot of fake-epidemiology from right-to-lifers. There are, apparently, no serious dangers of mifepristone in the dosages used for abortions, except from the usual dangers of abortion itself, which are far less than the dangers of full-term childbirth, and (of course) the risk of individual patients having pre-existing allergies to it, which is always a risk of every drug.
There's no serious dangers from bullets, except for the person being shot with them.
Using Judge Kacsmaryk's logic, the fact the some people get hurt by bullets would be enough to justify a nationwide injunction against bullets. Never mind that properly used, bullets do their job. Probably 99.999+% of bullets do not result in illegal harm (yes, I pulled that number out of my posterior, but consider "target shooting" versus "shooting for realz").
Are you sure that's where you want to go with that? Looks like another own goal to me.
here's the "Kill Shot" (not "Woke"?? too bad)
Nearly all women using the mifepristone/misoprostol regimen experienced abdominal pain, uterine cramping, and vaginal bleeding or spotting for an average of 9–16 days. For most women, the most severe cramps after use of misoprostol last for less than 6 hours and can generally be managed with ibuprofen.[29] Up to 8% of women experienced some type of bleeding for 30 days or more. Other less common side effects included nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, fatigue, and fever.[30] Pelvic inflammatory disease is a very rare but serious complication.[31] Excessive bleeding and incomplete termination of a pregnancy require further intervention by a doctor (such as a repeat dose of misoprostol or a vacuum aspiration). Mifepristone is contraindicated in the presence of adrenal failure, long-term oral corticosteroid therapy (although inhaled and topical steroids are fine), hemorrhagic disorders, inherited porphyria, and hemophilia or anticoagulant use.[30] Women with an intrauterine device in their uterus should remove the IUD prior to medication abortion to avoid unnecessary cramping. Mifepristone is not effective in treating ectopic pregnancy.
How does a woman *know* if she has an ectopic pregnancy?
Usually one-sided, stabbing pain in the pelvis or lower abdomen, often much more intense than ordinary post-abortive cramping-pain. Sometimes it radiates up as far as the shoulder.
It can also be detected earlier by ultrasound, if the technician is looking for it.
Pretty simple, we call it the "Ectopic Triad"
1: missed period, (and living in a household with 3 womens for 20+ years, they notice) 2: Abdominal Pain, some bleeding even though it's not the usual "Curse" (and living in a household with 3 womens for 20+ years, they notice)
3: Some guy fucked them, (100% of women with Ectopic have been fucked by some guy)
Frank "never been fucked by some guy"
Which makes the case for a mandatory ultrasound before a chemical abortion -- which ain't gonna happen with telemedicine.
Even in the 1980's we had some OB/GYN Residents (Lesbo's for the most part) who didn't want us to tell patients we were listening for "Fetal Heart Tones" (AKA "Baby's Heart Beat")
"If you tell them you're listening for the Baby's heart beat they'll think it's a baby"
Of course this was the 1980's and students were mostly XY, so we didn't listen, and anyway it would have been ridiculous.
"What are you doing?"
"Oh,, I'm listening for YOUR heartbeat in your belly"
Frank
The doctor says, "you have an ectopic pregnancy."
WTaF are you talking about?
OK, I'm glad no one you've dated has suffered a miscarriage.
But seriously, use your words. What actual thought are you trying to convey here.
That Milf-e-Prestone isn't a magic bullet, doesn't always work, never works for an Ectopic Pregnancy (Stupid Embryo which isn't alive keeps growing until the Uterine Tube ruptures, resulting in fatal hemorrhage)
Oh, but "I took the Abortion pill so I can't be Pregnant"
You want an abortion, fine, go to New Yawk, where Step N Fetchit Alvin Bragg lets Rapists off with Misdemeanors, can't even say what the fuck he's charging Trump with,
and get the actual "Medial" variety, where they "Extract" (Like they do with criminals) the fetus, dismember he/she (they can tell)
and show it to your face like in "Indiana Jones Temple of Doom"
am I clear?? are we Square!!!!!!!!!
Frank
Indeed. Both my dad and I have severe allergic reactions to penicillin and similar penicillin-class antibiotics. His are worse than mine, and mine suck.
What we do: it’s noted in our medical records under “allergies”, and we … simply don’t take penicillin.
What we don’t do: sue to try to force the FDA to take penicillin off the market.
What we really, really don’t do: assert that because we personally could die from ingesting penicillin, that penicillin's aggregate risks to society outweigh the benefits of not having a great front-line antibiotic available to said society.
That's a Hewwwwwwwwwwwwjjeeeee bone I pick with my Medial Colleagues,
See, in Medicine, Patients are considered rubes, booms, umm, what's that term the "Reverend" Jerry Sandusky uses???
"Klingers"
so whenever someone says they're allergic to Penicillin (or Morphine, Oxygen, etc) we (mentally) roll our eyes because you've probably got the Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, and oh, do you want Fries with that?
But PCN (I'd tell you..) is very common, and even though we don't use Penicillin much anymore, the synthetic penicillins/Cephalosporins can cause the same thing,
In Anesthesia, we give lots of Antibiotics (prescribed by Surgeons) I'm the A-hole who makes everyone wait 20 minutes because the Surgeon prescribed Ticarcillin to a Penicillin Allergic Victim, I mean Patient,
OK, the Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, is BS (or at least nobody dies from it)
Frank
For me it's Doxycycline. Developed tinnitus the first day I took it, which has never gone away. I expect that if I'd kept taking it, I'd have ended up completely deaf, instead. (Or maybe "sooner"?)
Sulfa, OTOH, gives me hives.
No, Brett. You're not allergic to doxycycline. I mean, I believe you, but Dr. Drackman says you're full of shit, and what should I trust, your allergic reaction, or his expertise?
You've always trusted bogus "experts" before, why change now?
I suspect the number of people on this site who believe Drackman is a doctor is very close to zero. Everything he professes to know could be learned from Wikipedia and Readers' Digest.
Well, this site doesn't list anyone named Drackman, or Drackmann or Drachman.
Where's the site that lists "bernard11"?
Good analogy, Zarniwoop.
Liberals only care about dead babies if they're ripped apart by 5.56 rounds. As long as they're ripped apart by scalpels in a doctor's office, that's just fine, because that's a "choice" after all!
We care about dead babies which were wanted, not so much about the unwelcome ones.
Your use of "unwelcome" says it all.
If you’ve welcomed the penis you’ve welcomed the resultant baby.
If you want to unwelcome it after its heart starts beating go to a different State than Texas.
That's called Federalism.
No exceptions for rape in many states that now have abortion bans.
The baby is an innocent victim.
Theocracy in action.
Only theocrats think babies are innocent of the crimes of their fathers?
I guess that means I must be one, despite being an atheist, too.
The likelihood that any given pregnancy is due to rape is about on the same par as the likelihood that a black at Harvard got in due to merit, and not his skin color. In other words, approaching 0.
What fraction of "unwelcome" babies are you imagining to be the result of rapes?
In the case of rape, I would support the woman being allowed to remove the baby and transfer it to an incubator and make the rapist pay.
Most pregnancies are not caused by rape, and so the woman should be required to carry the baby.
When a person causes a pregnancy, that person has the responsibility to take care of the resulting child.
It’s an interesting day when the VC’s Jonathon Adler and Slate’s Mark Joseph Stern write fundamentally identical analyses of a SCOTUS decision, to include providing essentially identical recommendations. (They differ primarily in that Stern’s longer piece contains more background, details, and examples.)
Adler isn’t as much unlike Slate as you imagine, so this isn't as interesting as you imagine.
Depends somewhat on the topic, of course.
As I wrote on another thread, Judge Kacsmaryk's opinion and order does for jurisprudence what Christian Szell did for dentistry.
No one gives a damn about what you wrote elsewhere.
It's time to recognize that a district that can't support two full-time federal judges should not have a federal courthouse or be a judicial district (with the associated personnel, facilities, and expense).
Someone doesn't understand geography very well....
There are reasons why there are multiple districts in flyover country, and it isn't just that flyover states also have two Senators whose votes are needed to confirm judges in your brain-dead states.
I should have noted the exception that every state -- even those with fewer residents than a genuine city -- should have at least one federal judge and courthouse.
Beyond that context, however, there should be no single-judge postings.
Maybe someone could remind me again to explain why cases where states are plaintiff can be most efficiently heard in district court, in spite of the constitutional language seeming to award the Supreme Court original jurisdiction in cases where a state is a party.
"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties ...to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—"
Not seeing the "language seeming to award the Supreme Court original jurisdiction in cases where a state is a party" absent other conditions.
"In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make."
Original jurisdiction here does not mean exclusive original jurisdiction.
Assume you're correct.
I was asking about efficiency. What's efficient about district courts hearing these cases?
District courts have considerably more experience with conducting evidentiary hearings and factfinding than SCOTUS does. In an original jurisdiction case, the Supreme Court would in all likelihood appoint a special master, and review of a report and recommendation by a hydra headed tribunal can be unwieldy.
What’s wrong with special masters? I presume it’s generally some experienced lawyer who can set aside the time to consider the one case exclusively (can a district court do *that*?). Let the Court get the special master’s report and act on it, making a final and unappealable decision.
That better serves the interest of the people of the state(s) concerned, who get their cases heard immediately by the highest tribunal, without delays or clashing lower-court decisions. And in cases important enough trigger action by the states, the public in general would benefit too – not having to wait on the silly judge-shopping games and extra appeals.
Thanks… I stopped reading when Sec III wandered off into ambassadors and such and assumed the subject of normal people had been dropped, partially because I’d looked first at 28 U.S. Code § 1251 – Original jurisdiction, which appears to ignore the verbiage you draw attention to.https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1251
So, did I miss a mention in the Constitution of “original but not exclusive jurisdiction” (per the Code) or is that a later interpolation?
The jurisdiction of federal courts is established by Congress. Pursuant to that authority, Congress enacted 28 U.S.C. § 1251, which states:
(a)The Supreme Court shall have original and exclusive jurisdiction of all controversies between two or more States.
(b)The Supreme Court shall have original but not exclusive jurisdiction of:
The Washington lawsuit discussed here falls under subsection (b)(2), a controversy between several states and a federal agency. The Texas litigation was brought by private parties and is not within the original jurisdiction of SCOTUS.
Thx.
Both cases should have lost, both on standing and on their merits arguments.
And in both cases, judges had to ignore not just clear-cut precedent but their role as neutral arbiters. In both cases, the umpire picked up an obviously scoreless foul ball, threw it onto the field, and then called all bases out and end of inning in the one case and a grand slam home run in the other.
Are you imagining that you've made an argument?
Ah, Spring! When the forlorn mating call of the lonely troll is heard in our land.
Yeah, that was my reaction to your tedious empty snark as well.
Haha!
As it happens, the second decision is no better.
You need a lesson in probability, especially conditional probability.
You are treating the two rulings as independent events, which they emphatically are not.
The question is not whether the Washington decision is good or bad in isolation. It is whether the decision is bad given the Texas decision.
You may not like Adler’s answer, but you read what it was and the fact that it differs from yours doesn’t mean that he needs any education from the pompous ignorant likes of you.
Clearly YOU need a enough of a lesson in probability to know what it is and what it is not. Mere conditionality of a conclusion need not, and does not here, involve "probability" at all.
I mean, justiciability can change based on context, but doesn't in this case.
Abuse of process is not the cure for abuse of process.
That being said, no one cares about the second lower-level norm breaker other than dorks like me and Adler. No one in this thread, even. So in a baseline way, you're right.
But I still think when, as in this case, abuse of our institutions give rise to suffering, the answer is not to just say fuck the rules. I'm just not that kind of liberal. The system being around is better than it not being around; and this fuckery wouldn't have lasted long.
So does anyone defend the Texas case's reasoning other than Dr. Ed?
I think the case to watch at this point is GenBioPro v. West Virginia. GenBioPro is the manufacturer of mifepristone, and is suing claiming federal law overrides West Virginia’s abortion restrictions. West Virginia, citing the Major Questions Doctrine, says the FDA’s approval of mifepristone doesn’t give rise to any general federal policy favoring commerce in ahortifacients. Citing the Comstock Act, West Virginia argues that if anything federal law is friendly to restrictions.
Both sides have clear standing. Unlike these other two cases, which I expect will get tossed out on appeal on standing or similar grounds with no merits decisions, GenBioPro v. West Virginia is very likely to result in a clear merits decision one way or the other, likely at the Circuit Court level and quite possibly by the Supreme Court.
Wikipedia: “The major questions doctrine is a principle of statutory interpretation in United States administrative law which states that courts will presume that Congress does not delegate to executive agencies issues of major political or economic significance.”
Unless inducing abortions is somehow deemed to not be of major political significance WV’s argument seems to be on point. It’s anyway non-obvious that FDA approval should mandate availability everywhere in contravention to State policy.
Certain fireworks are Federally-approved but not available everywhere. And states have individual policies regarding the prescription of opiates.
WV is a state, primary jurisdiction -- might SCOTUS take that case to settle this?
I have a question -- say the 5th Circuit upholds the injunction. How *quickly* can SCOTUS act, and what might that look like?
And can SCOTUS restrict the injunction to Texas only, and then take the Cumstock law and banning RU-486 from being mailed into Texas?
Personally, I think national injunctions are toast -- the right hasn't liked them for some time, and now the left doesn't either.
The initial skirmish will be whether to stay the district court's injunction pending appeal. I expect the Court of Appeals to act expeditiously on a stay application. If the Fifth Circuit grants the stay, I would expect the plaintiffs to move SCOTUS to dissolve it. Likewise, if the Fifth Circuit denies the stay, I would expect FDA to seek a stay from SCOTUS.
All of this can move quickly, as in a matter of days at each stage. Justice Alito is the circuit justice for the Fifth Circuit. A motion regarding a stay would initially go to him, whereupon he could refer it to the full Court. Granting or dissolving a stay requires at least five members of SCOTUS.
The appeal of the injunction on the merits will go before the Fifth Circuit, which will fix a schedule for briefing and oral argument. I would expect that to take several months. After a Court of Appeals ruling on the merits, the losing party would have 90 days to file a petition for writ of certiorari in the Supreme Court (a period which can be extended for up to 60 days for good cause).