The Volokh Conspiracy
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Fox News 2020 Election Coverage Decisions Demonstrate that Demand for Misinformation is a Bigger Problem than the Supply
Major Fox talk show hosts knew that Trump's claims of a stolen election were false, but chose not to say so on air, for fear it would anger their audience.
Evidence made public as a result of Dominion Voting Systems slander lawsuit against Fox News reveals that Fox News executives and on-air personalities knew that Donald Trump's claims that the 2020 election was stolen from him were false. Soon after the election, informed observers at Fox (like those elsewhere) already knew that Trump had lost legitimately. But they chose to conceal this truth on the air, for fear that broadcasting it would anger the channel's audience and lead to lower ratings:
[P]rominent [Fox] anchors like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, and Maria Bartiromo are evidently very aware that the public—or, more precisely, their public—doesn't share their view of claims of massive fraud in the 2020 election made by former President Donald Trump and his allies like lawyers Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell….
Documents from a defamation lawsuit brought against Fox by Dominion Voting Systems, a voting machine manufacturer whose product was implicated in the fraud allegations, show the hosts fully understood that the theories pushed by Powell et al. were, in their words, "insane" ideas from an "idiot" and a "lying," "complete nut."
Still, they permitted—even welcomed—advocates of those theories on Fox airwaves because the audience liked it. As Carlson put it, "Our viewers are good people and they believe it," though Carlson himself did not. Or, as Bartiromo agreed, "It's easier to get good ratings when you give your audience something they want to hear," and "a peaceful transition" between the Trump and Biden administrations was not what they wanted to hear. Or Hannity: "You don't piss off the base."
Rupert Murdoch, Executive Chairman of News Corp, which owns Fox, appears to have made a similar calculation. He and others at Fox feared that if the network told viewers the truth about the election, its audience would decamp, perhaps to other right-wing networks, such as Newsmax.
In addition to highlighting the cynical nature of Fox's decision-making, this incident also sheds light on the dynamics of political misinformation. Many assume that purveyors of misinformation deceive an audience that would otherwise naturally gravitate towards the truth. But, in reality, Fox was catering to its viewers' preexisting prejudices. They already believed that the election had been stolen from Trump, or at least had strong predispositions in that direction. The network was not so much forming their beliefs as pandering to them. Had it refused to do so, they might have gone to someone else who would.
This story is a particularly striking example of the ways in which the demand for political misinformation is a bigger problem than the supply. I summarized the dynamic here:
[T]he low odds that any one vote will make a difference to the outcome of an election ensure that many consumers of political information are acting not as truth-seekers, but as "political fans" eager to endorse anything that supports their position or casts the opposing party and its supporters in a bad light. These biases affect not only ordinary voters, but also otherwise highly knowledgeable ones, and even policymakers and politicians.
This demand for misinformation is the real root of the problem. If it were lower, the supply would not be much of a danger, and at the very least would not affect many voters' political decision-making.
I also previously wrote about this issue here, here, and here.
Republicans' reaction to Trump's lies about the 2020 election and to some other recent events highlight the problem of right-wing voters susceptibility to myths and conspiracy theories that reinforce their preexisting views. But left-wingers are also prone to the same dynamic. Social science research finds that bias in evaluation of political information is roughly comparable across the political spectrum. Both right and left are relatively more willing to believe misinformation that confirms their priors. Examples that primarily appeal to the left include 9/11 "trutherism" (discussed in Chapter 3 of my book Democracy and Public Ignorance), and claims that GMO foods should be banned or because they are supposedly more dangerous than "natural" ones.
Even if driven by viewer demand, Fox's actions were still reprehensible. It is obviously unethical for news network leaders and commentators to become knowing purveyors of falsehood.
The above also should not be taken as proof that Fox's decisions had no effect. Had the network's most prominent commentators and hosts fortrightly told their viewers the truth about the election, it might have changed at least some minds (even as other viewers might have simply switched channels). Partisan Republicans may be more likely to let go of misconceptions when told the truth by opinion leaders on their "side," as opposed to partisan opponents or "mainstream media" sources, which many conservatives view with deep suspicion. "Political fans" of all stripes are likely more willing to accept unpleasant truths from players on their own team.
But the central role of viewer demand in this episode does suggest that Fox and other purveyors of misinformation are less powerful than often thought. Such influence as they have arises primarily because many people have strong preexisting prejudices that lead them to believe certain types of lies. If Fox refuses to tell them what they want to hear, they might turn to someone else who will.
The crucial role of the demand side also has implications for efforts to address the problem of political misinformation. I summarized them in previous pieces on the subject, most recently here. Among other things, it suggests we are unlikely to make much progress by trying to curb specific sources of misinformation, whether it be a social media platform like Twitter, or a network like Fox. Rather, we should seek structural solutions that reduce political polarization and shift decision-making to formats where people have better incentives to curb their prejudices and seek out the truth.
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Voting, the one thing where no one would ever ever cheat! It’s like baked into our human DNA where people lie cheat and steal in just about every circumstance, BUT when it comes to Sacred Democracy, we just don’t do it as a species.
Everyone knows no one cheats or commits fraud during elections and when they say cheating or fraud occurred they are breaking the law and violating our Sacred Democracy.
Also Open Borders Rules!
Sincerely, Ilya Somin
P.S. I luvs me some brownies out there cutting my lawn in my gated community too!
We know that people will cheat in voting and that we will catch them. Happens every election. But take it from former AG Bill Barr, there is no systemic fraud that would change the outcome.
Wow and he really looked into it too! So he should know since spent so much time investigating!!!
The 2020 election has been one of the most investigated elections and you are not satisfied. What you want is something that doesn't exist, enough fraud to have changed the election. That will never be found because it did not happen.
"people will cheat in voting and that we will catch them"
Its the people who cheat in counting that don't get caught.
Last time I looked counting was pretty straight forward how do you cheat in counting? It still 1,2, 3 and so on.
"Stolen election" and "massive voter fraud" kooks are among my favorite worthless, delusional culture war casualties.
Especially the disaffected losers who figure government (corrupt, inept, deceptive) can't be trusted with elections but suddenly becomes righteous, trustworthy, and infallible with respect to convicting and killing people (Black, Hispanic, or gay people, ideally).
Carry on, clingers. We will continue to let you know just how far, though.
The cheats in Bob's head always get away with it.
Uh huh...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/19/nyregion/nj-election-mail-voting-fraud.html
If cheating is that serious, then lying about cheating is even more so, especially at scale, since if you persuade enough people that it's in their interests to lie about cheating, democratic institutions are devalued and undermined.
BCD,
Don't you know that skepticism is the real problem?
Without skeptics, liars would have no audience.
If everyone would just believe exactly what the government tells us, lying would soon be a distant memory.
No joke, I really mean it. Ilya does too.
He's defending lies, though, not skepticism
Choose the news that agrees with you.
You can get conservative con-artists who are pandering to you deliberately or progressive pod-people who genuinely share your delusions.
Thank God libertarians never fall for such group think. I can’t decide if it’s because we’re too smart or because we’re too independent minded. Let me know which you prefer, and I will flatter your preconceptions accordingly.
I can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic, but libertarians are not free from this pressure either. Just look at this blog. You have your respectable writers like Ilya and Volokh that tackle issues fairly and with good research. Even when they're advocating views I don't agree with, I can at least see the logic and know they are writing genuinely. Then look at Josh Blackman, I can't tell if he's writing crap for clicks from right wing Twitter or if he actually believes what he tries to sell. Looking at comments, I can see why the partisan hacks get into writing even more baseless and partisan articles. One time I commented that Bernstein was pandering to crazy people and he responded with links to several academic journal articles he wrote on the subject, but he didn't put them originally in the article. Why? Supply and demand. The crazies don't want to read real academic work. It transformed half this blog to crap. Long gone are the days that I'd recommend law students read this. The difference with the librarian approach is my suspicion that the reason Volokh allows the hacks' writing on this blog is the dedication to free speech above all else, obviously it's not for financial profit. Now, how do we convince Fox viewers and certain readers of this blog that they're being deceived because they want to be deceived?
At this point you can stop pretending that there’s anything like this on the left.
Out of the hole, captcrisis!! Out of the hole!!!
50% of the public recognize that the media slants coverage to suit their political beliefs, as opposed to 25% that don’t and 25% that aren’t sure. That’s how flagrant and obvious it is. That ain’t just Fox.
Public perception of whether news is slanted is not the same thing as proven relentless deliberate conscious lying by a news station to pander to a particular audience.
Nige constantly trying to prove that he’s in the lowest quartile for intelligence. He gots to beeleeeeve.
Your response to his argument is pure insult. That’s not a sign you have much to offer other than projection.
The CJR article on coverage of the Russian collusion story proves his assertion is silly. I suggested that people read it. He clearly didn’t. What am I supposed to say if he (or you for that matter) don’t care about independent analysis?
The country understands that the media has become a bunch of dishonest political hacks. People like you and Nige and Queen decline to notice. No point arguing it anymore.
But if he’s going to respond to me with flagrant ignorance, then I’ll point it out. Put me on ignore if you don’t like it. There’s no sense discussing stuff with you anyway because any counterpoint you don’t like you reflexively dismiss as “right wing propaganda”, even if it comes from long term liberals who haven’t taken up the illiberal banner that you have.
His point was that perception is not reality. Media may well be biased, but ad popularum is a fallacy. So is reifying an opinion piece.
Here we have facts about FOX wrongdoing. You come in with your usual bothsides only you are above it all, and your proof of bias is people think there is a bias.
Now, I would not at all be surprised if there were a bias. But this is piss poor evidence.
Bob defended Fox below and I pointed out that he’s full of shit. But whatever.
The media’s popularity is horribly low. And still dropping. That’s not right wing misinformation or left wing misinformation, that’s the majority of us out here observing the obvious. Somehow you and nige and Krychek and captcrisis can’t see that. What is the common characteristic among y’all that keeps y’all from seeing what everyone sees?
You’re having an astonishingly passionate argument based on the idea that ‘the left’ completely believes everything that mainstream media says and worships at its feet, while at the same time claiming that the media’s popularity is at an all-time low, is it possible you’re mistaken about one of these things.
It’s telling you think noting Bob is wrong has any bearing on your being right or wrong in this utterly separate discussion.
That is bothsides brain. Call separate things like you see them; the goal is not for some ledger to add up all your opinions to net zero.
I did call each independently like I see them. It just happened to be on the same article. Krychek was accusing me of being a conservative.
Fox News cynically manipulated the news and I hope it costs them. But then Krychek and captcrisis and all started comparing. I didn’t. I just pointed out that they’re full of shit. Which you do t like so you attack me. Because noticing that the whole bunch suck is a sin or something.
The only one comparing in this thread is you.
The part of the country gullible and stupid enough to fall for QAnon, Donald Trump, birtherism, old-timey religion, and the "stolen elections" claims, sure. The half-educated, inconsequential, superstitious, bigoted, obsolete part.
‘The CJR article on coverage of the Russian collusion story proves his assertion is silly.’
Which assertion?
‘The country understands that the media has become a bunch of dishonest political hacks’
It’s a much degraded profession, mostly because it's been stripped bare, but who benefits from making everyone believe they’re all at Fox News level?
‘But if he’s going to respond to me with flagrant ignorance’
I think the ignorance is assuming the the behaviour displayed by Fox News must be the norm across all media because that’s some sort of inviolable balancing law of the universe. If things get to that state we’ll be in a pretty bad way.
Believe what? That Fox News deliberately lied in their coverage?
Not a serious response.
Uh huh...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/coronavirus-cases-protests-black-lives-matter-trnd/index.html
In truth....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7717330/
There's a difference between slanting (deciding from which angle to report a story) versus outright fabrication (the 2020 election was stolen). Sure, all news organizations slant, if for no other reason than time constraints. And of course reporters, being human, sometimes make mistakes.
But that's not the same thing as outright lying by claiming that voting machines switched votes. And on the occasions in which it is possible to do independent fact checking, I consistently find the mainstream media gets it right far more often than Fox does.
" I consistently find the mainstream media gets it right far more often than Fox does."
Well, that's settled then.
I'm betting you've never done independent fact checking, but if you have, is your experience different?
Wow, you do "independent fact checking" and find the reporting completely supports your priors. What are the odds?
Bob, what is your sense of the chance that your conservative thinking will avoid being rendered irrelevant as the modern American marketplace of ideas continues to shape our nation's progress?
Do you give the conservatives even a 10 percent chance to win in the culture war? If so, why? Does all of your hope for American right-wingers rely on a Rapture, or merely most of it?
If 'their priors' are 'the truth,' that stands to reason.
Nice question dodge, Bob. I will be surprised if you've ever independently checked a news story in your life, but if you have, is your experience different? It's a yes or no question.
We have done exactly the same amount of “independent fact checking”.
You still haven't answered the question. Doesn't take much imagination to figure out why.
Bias is the choice of stories to harp on, all day, month after month.
Fox News was the Benghazi channel for four years, trying to keep alive something to tag Hillary with, the presumptive 2016 nominee.
CNN became the anti-Trump channel, where 100% of what he did had to be met with Don Lemon shaking his head and lamenting what a sorry state the US was in with a president who said (the day's catch).
It’s laughable to say that the mainstream messiah constantly gets it right. You only think so because they preach to your bias.
You switched consistently to constantly.
Argue against the post, not what you want to argue against.
Fine. Plop consistently in the statement and nothing changes. The media almost never gets things right. That’s why nobody but committed illiberal leftists believes them. Preacher and choir and all that.
Even if your are correct and the mainstream media almost never gets things right, it's still not the same as deliberately and consistently and knowingly lying.
'nobody but committed illiberal leftists believes them'
Oh yeah, all the leftists I know think mainstream media is spot on. Oh no wait, they critique them all the time, only usually more substantively than your reflexive strawmanning.
Almost never? Seriously?
Here's an alternative hypothesis: A significant chunk of conservative dogma is based on fact-free misconceptions of how the world actually works. So of course you don't like how the media reports on it.
Which " conservative dogma is based on fact-free misconceptions of how the world actually works" is that exactly?
Is it that men and women are biologically different and due to this have different intrinsic physical characteristics? That piece of "dogma"?
'the mainstream messiah constantly gets it right'
Good thing nobody says that.
There are some reasoned voices on the right, who admit that not everyone on their side is perfect and not everyone on the other side is pure evil, but they’re getting scarce.
They are scarce. Where are those same people on the left?
You’re constantly aligned politically with the mainstream media and not with Fox News. Both are full of shit, but you constantly believe the one that tells you what you want to hear. Human nature, ain’t it great?
Uh huh. The left has "never" claimed an election was stolen.
https://www.motherjones.com/media/2005/11/recounting-ohio/
2000, 2004, 2016 are still waiting on the line, with a minimum of 40% of Democrats saying 2004 was stolen, to upwards of 75% saying so for the other two.
But sure, he's right on the dot, the Left has never claimed an election was stolen, just believe him, not your lying eyes and ears.
Yeah, sure, if you literally ignore everything about what actually happened, they're the same.
lol...
"Supply creates its own demand."
This argument would make sense if Fox was the source of the disinformation instead of a clearing house. In order for people to find themselves empowered by disinformation to this degree, there has to be a powerhose of disinformation straight into their brains.
Nice try both-sidesing it with two examples no-one has heard from in years. The anti-vaxx movement was always vaguely if not completely more leftist than anything else until the right got hold of it and ramped it up to 11. ‘Climate change is a hoax by the elites who want you to eat insects’ has crossed over from the right to the tankie left, who also agree it’s anti-war to support Russia in Ukraine. But that’s fringe left, increasingly mainstream right.
This argument would make sense if Fox was the source of the disinformation instead of a clearing house. In order for people to find themselves empowered by disinformation to this degree, there has to be a powerhose of disinformation straight into their brains.
The point is that Fox News hosts were well aware the election fraud claims were lies, but they not only chose to conceal this fact from their audience but they amplified the lies to their audience.
Deliberately misleading the audience should be death for a "news" org but Fox has been doing it for years.
Nice try both-sidesing it with two examples no-one has heard from in years. The anti-vaxx movement was always vaguely if not completely more leftist than anything else until the right got hold of it and ramped it up to 11. ‘Climate change is a hoax by the elites who want you to eat insects’ has crossed over from the right to the tankie left,
Are you replying to the right article? No one is talking vaccines or climate change.
Not if your target audience is a bunch of poorly educated, disaffected, superstitious, gullible, antisocial culture war casualties.
This goes for blogs, too, especially faux libertarian fringe blogs with vanishingly thin academic veneers misappropriate the franchises of several mainstream institutions.
Murdoch was asked what was it like being in the business of conservative news.
He said he was in the business of making money.
Like Donald Trump and any successful purveyor of shoddy goods, Rupert Murdoch knows his downscale, gullible audience with meticulous precision. It is generally easy to sell first-rate products; it takes certain skills (and low-grade character) to sell shitty products over the long term.
Purveyors of disinformation by definition know they're purveying disinformation.
'No one is talking vaccines or climate change.'
Lots of people are - more so than the two examples referred to in the OP.
Opinion hosts disagree with opinions of guests. Scandal!
Bob from Ohio is too dumb to know the difference between opinions and (purported) facts. "Dominion machines switched votes" is either true or false; it's not an opinion.
Nah. Hannity admitted in a depo that he knew it was bullshit and acted as if he believed it anyway. Bartolomo has been quoted as giving the audience what they want to hear. The Fox people knew exactly what they were doing.
So what. They are entertainers.
But that's not how they or their employer represent themselves.
If you say so, I don't watch Fox or its competitors. I think they are advertised as hosting opinion shows, not news, though.
The discerning Republican is too smart to get taken in by the likes of Fox News, but is happy to let them flood less discerning Republicans with lies.
"If Fox refuses to tell them what they want to hear, they might turn to someone else who will."
But then the other companies would be facing a $1.6B lawsuit.
Not Fox.
Losing 5% of your company ($1.6B vs. Fox's market cap $18.29B) has to hurt a lot.
What makes you think a judgment will be anything like that amount?
A plaintiff can claim anything.
Not everyone is like Trump. Not everyone files baseless lawsuits claiming unrealistic amounts.
"Not everyone files ... lawsuits claiming unrealistic amounts"
No, just lawyers.
Are you auditioning for Fox? Because it seems like it, with as much evidence-free claptrap as you post.
Perhaps, but it's not beyond reason.
They falsely accused a company who made vote counting machines of rigging an election. That's about as damaging an accusation to their business as you can make.
So yeah, the damages should be something on the order of a significant fraction of Dominion's market cap.
Fox's counterclaim (public version filed 2023-02-16) asserts that Dominion was not damaged by Fox's lies. Their counterclaim strikes me as pretty ridiculous, but they do include a few numbers:
Staple Street purchased 76.2% of Dominion for $38.3 million in July 2018. That means they valued the entire company at $50.3 million. Fox says that Staple Street told its investors that in a best case scenario they could sell their stake in Dominion for twice what they paid for it, which means they anticipated that Dominion's enterprise value could double to about $100 million.
In its complaint, Dominion asks for $1 billion in lost enterprise value, $600 million in lost profits, $700 thousand in public relations expenses to combat Fox's lies, and $600 thousand for security expenses. Based on the information in the Fox counterclaim, it's hard to see how Dominion could demonstrate that they lost anything close to $1 billion in enterprise value. Fox's counterclaim doesn't make a case that Dominion's other numbers are wrong, but the $600 million in lost profits seems improbable because a company with a $50 million enterprise value doesn't make profits of that magnitude.
In short, I expect Dominion will be awarded significantly less than $1.6 billion in compensatory damages. That said, Fox's lies didn't just harm Dominion; they harmed the country, so think that a large punitive damages award would be appropriate.
"Soon after the election, informed observers at Fox (like those elsewhere) already knew that Trump had lost legitimately. "
Yes. I know that there is no cheating in elections like I know nobody cheats on their taxes.
Unresponsive to the evidence being provided.
Trump was obviously full of shit on the election but a large chunk of republicans ran with it and squandered the opportunity to gain power that was provided by Biden’s extremism and incompetence. But keep pushing that rock up the hill, man.
Biden’s extremism.
Defining yourself as the center again.
Except for the fact that I’m not, you know, a conservative. And the vast majority of the country doesn’t trust the media any more.
Other than that, brilliant analysis, genius.
This reply was to Krychek above.
Biden is governing to the approval of progressive Twitter. His environmental plan is extremist. The “equity” stuff has come out of nowhere to be omnipresent. His misinformation jihad is extremist and dangerous. The centerpiece of his administration was the ruinous $3T BBB was thankfully stopped, unless you think Zimbabwe is a great place to live.
He’s governing much farther left of center than Trump did right of center. But you don’t see it because you’re an extremist.
'His environmental plan is extremist.'
Well the climate/biodiversity crisis is extreme, pretending otherwise is the most extreme of all, and Biden's measures are barely even middling.
Extremism is not based on how hard you personally disagree with a policy,
Or me for that matter.
And you don’t know progressive Twitter at all if you think Biden is their darling.
Extremism doesn’t fail to be extremism just because an extremist doesn’t find it to be so.
See, I can do that too.
You’re doing the Monty Python argument clinic thing.
You are the one calling Biden extremist and offering as evidence how much he has strayed from your drill drill drill drill policy preferences.
You got a personal thing. That’s fine; that’s how half of political message boards discussions roll. But it does mean you should step back from pretending to have an objective evaluation of the guy,
For one thing you repeatedly mischaracterize his policies. You said last week he instantiated the Green New Deal in all but name! I looked it up and that’s a a laugh.
Also, claiming I would totally make the same arguments doesn’t make yours less bad.
Appealing to lefty Twitter when you clearly have no idea what it is asking for or what it thinks of Biden is not helping your case.
“I’m not, you know, conservative”
No you’re just a basic contrarian. You have no beliefs or principles beyond “I’m against what they’re for… because I know the truth!”
“Biden extremism” will never not be hilarious. And the people who promote it will never not be ridiculous.
bevis
I mean, I'm happy to leave the political strategizing to you. Just saying, election cheating has been a thing since Tammany Hall and it's a "time-honored tradition" as Blagoyevich called it. But yeah any "informed observer" knows it doesn't happen, just like cheating on taxes doesn't happen.
Republicans squandering opportunities is nothing new. But more importantly, no matter how many Republicans win national office and are sent to D.C. to "gain power," the fundamental problems will never be fixed in this manner.
Now do the Washington Post.
No lawsuit or evidence from discovery is present, so your attempted whattaboutism is worse than usual,
Now read the CJR expose. But you don’t want to do that.
The CJR "expose" is nothing of the kind. It's a terrible series that lies in parts and simply assumes things are true that are utterly unproven in other parts.
The FBI and some internal people at the NYT and WaPo knew the reporting was 98% bullshit, but no biggie, right? Gotta get Trump, even if it costs their reputation for a generation.
Methinks someone told you what you wanted to hear, and it was that.
Yeah, that's not remotely an accurate description of what CJR claims to have found, let alone what it actually found. It actually found it was 98% accurate.
That sounds like the hallmarks of Russian disinformation to me. At least according to 51 former government officials.
I read it like a month ago when someone here linked it, It’s an opinion piece I disagree with. It’s not really even aiming to be factual, much less an expose.
bevis the lumberjack : “Now read the CJR expose”
1. I did.
2. It says much less than you seem to believe. A while back I posted a summary of the whole Trump/Russian thing with this conclusion : “So you have a legitimate investigation conducted by legitimate appointees in a legitimate manner who uncovered scads of legitimate grounds to investigate after underway.” Nothing in Gerth’s endless article challenges any of that, even if you accept all his distortions and ignore everything he left out.
3. Which brings us to the crowning irony: Jeff Gerth critiques the media as overly rash & insufficiently judicious! Somewhere lost on my shelves is a book on Whitewater, a major part of which shreds Gerth to pieces for his sloppy hack-work on the story. (and we won’t bother bringing Wen Ho Lee into this)
4. But here’s what our friend Bevis should take from that : Even though the entire Whitewater story was propelled forward by Gerth reporting that was little better than a lie, I still don’t feel like I’m owed my own tailor-fit news – created especially for me and telling me only the things I want to hear. Maybe Bevis should ask himself why he feels so owed….
"Still, they permitted—even welcomed—advocates of those theories on Fox airwaves because the audience liked it. . . . Even if driven by viewer demand, Fox's actions were still reprehensible. It is obviously unethical for news network leaders and commentators to become knowing purveyors of falsehood."
So, is the idea here that Fox should have blacked out any coverage of President Trump's and his attorneys' claims? So any time a politician is making false or frivolous claims, you must never air them making the claim or cover the fact that they are making it, except to say it's false (even if that is proving a negative)?
This seems like an incredible standard. For example, if you take the statements of any recent Republican or Democrat President made during their tenure concerning the extent of their constitutional powers, probably most of them are false.
I don't doubt that Fox News might have defamed Dominion Voting Systems in some specific way, I haven't followed the specifics. But of course these recent headlines are leaving out those specifics and painting with a 100x broader brush to fit their agenda and/or shoehorn the story into their pet academic topics.
I don't watch TV news, but I recall that from the start Fox News in general was very down on the election cheating claims and repeatedly rebuked them (example), called Arizona too early for Biden, called the House for Dems too early and had to retract 8 days later, Chris Wallace in a biased debate moderation performance demanded the candidates wait for results to be "certified" before declaring a result only to later declare a result long before certification and mock and ridicule those who questioned it. Etc.
I do agree with Somin's broader point, though, that the media responds to demand and generally is less individually powerful than often supposed.
'Trump is making false and frivolous claims about the election' is not something ever heard on Fox News.
No. You misunderstand the facts and legal issues.
I take it you are not impressed with Fox and their legal team's portrayal of the issues?
"There is nothing more newsworthy than covering the president of the United States and his lawyers making allegations of voter fraud. . . . " https://reason.com/volokh/2023/02/14/smartmatics-libel-lawsuit-against-fox-can-go-forward/
Do you think they should be held liable for defamation?
"President Trump claimed that Dominion stole the election" is not going to subject them to liability for defamation. That is not what this is about. It's not about reporting objectively about what other public figures were saying.
And it is about what? Do you think they should be held liable for defamation?
I'd ask what implications this should have for reports of Trump being a secret Russian asset, colluding with Russia, etc . . . but, I know you're the deep state's biggest fan, and a conspiracy theorist when it suits you.
The quote you begin this with is from a piece elsewhere in Reason, if you want to know what Bonnie Kristian meant by it you might start by reading the full article. It doesn't purport to be a legal analysis, for starters.
So, is the idea here that Fox should have blacked out any coverage of President Trump’s and his attorneys’ claims? So any time a politician is making false or frivolous claims, you must never air them making the claim or cover the fact that they are making it, except to say it’s false (even if that is proving a negative)?
This isn't about airing of covering them, it's about endorsement.
The personalities at Fox News were well aware that the claims were false, yet they repeatedly represented them to their viewers as if they were true. In fact, when one Fox News employee made a tweet debunking an election lie Tucker Carlson actually demanded the employee be fired.
I don’t watch TV news, but I recall that from the start Fox News in general was very down on the election cheating claims and repeatedly rebuked them (example), called Arizona too early for Biden,
That's an important part of the story. After Fox prematurely called Arizona and initially resisted the election lies Trump got pissed off and started promoting Newsmax. Fox got scared that Newsmax would supplant them as the default network for the GOP so they reversed course and started promoting the conspiracy theories.
Problem is, those conspiracy theories seriously defamed a company, and now Fox News is liable for it.
"they repeatedly represented them to their viewers as if they were true."
Thanks. Can you link to some of the clips where they did this?
"In fact, when one Fox News employee made a tweet debunking an election lie Tucker Carlson actually demanded the employee be fired."
I have no idea what this has to do with the sentence that comes before it.
Professor Somin’s distinction between supply and demand misses the point – at least concerning Fox. They were the ones who created the demand, selling news as entertainment these past twenty years. Fox gave us the new consumer market of news as pro-wrestling-style spectacle, where niceties such as true/false & real/unreal were totally irrelevant. Given the sole point is to get blood pumping among the viewership – with villains to hiss and heroes to cheer – reality is a hindrance more than anything else. Why would lies about stolen elections be any different?
Maybe the tail did wag the dog in this case, but it’s hardly a major distinction. Fox created an audience that likes bullshit spoon-fed to them regularly. They wanted heaping gobs of it after the election and Fox obliged.
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Best Sarcastro comment ever.
I thought about responding thus:
Sarcastr0: ” . ”
.. … . .. ….
Where did the Fox anchors say anything that was false? These are mainly gripes that Fox News did not say that the election was the most secure in history. They reported both sides of the story.
Nope. Not what the suit is about.
Where did the Fox anchors say anything that was false?
Repeatedly, in private texts and messages revealed in court filings.
The problem is they told viewers something different.
Just read the difference between what they believed vs what they told their viewers.
This should be very disturbing for any Fox News viewer.
These are mainly gripes that Fox News did not say that the election was the most secure in history. They reported both sides of the story.
The problem is they knowingly spread lies about Dominion to their viewers. That makes them liable for defamation.
Interesting to me that the Mueller investigation took 2+ years, and the Durham investigation has been going for 4+ years. Of course Barr and others could conclude from a election fraud “investigation” that lasted less than 30 days could conclusively say there was no impactful fraud when most every court case was dropped on lack of standing and other minor procedural issues. And of course it is easier to look at the tens of thousands of precincts, thousands of counties, and conclude nothing happened than digging through some emails and documents like FISA warrants with clear indications of who submitted and approved them. Facts like voter rolls that have more voters than adult population, 110% voting in areas like Detroit (now that is voter suppression) and 4 states taking a week to finalize the count is just proof of efficiency and honesty. It should be obvious that every investigation should be wrapped up in a month, produces the most trusted and accurate conclusions.
A few points :
1. Mueller took less than two years, not more.
2. A partisan recount in Arizona paid for by the GOP took over four months trying to find voting fraud in Maricopa County. They found nothing.
3. After the 2016 election, Trump created a voting fraud commission, packed it with voter fraud zealots, and named the most tin-foil-hat believer of them all, Kris Kobach, as its head. The commission collapsed eight months later in humiliating failure. It found nothing.
The dishonest, gullible, and delusional have had much longer than “30 days” to find the some trace of this fraud they yammer on about. Yet they still offer nothing better than factoid gibberish like you cite. Why is that?
Standing is not a "minor procedural issue," and while many cases did indeed founder on such grounds, the actual substantive allegations of fraud were all considered and rejected on the merits.
Those aren't facts. Those are things you either maliciously made up or gullibly believed.
Labeling something "disinformation" isn't thoughtful or principled or informative.
Get back to us when you have something to offer besides name-calling.
They were lying, what's objectionable about calling it disinformation?
Because they should be called “lies.”
I thought this was supposed to be impossible, but Somin had a chicken — egg problem, and he got the order wrong.
I mean...wow...on bias for Somin.
The media shouldn't report on claim from Republicans that the election was stolen. But should report on claims of literal "prostitutes were paid to pee on the Presidential candidate."
Anyway, we've gone to nutso level.
There was not the remove you imply.
FOX was putting on people they knew were lying and presenting those lies as facts.
"knew".... No, they didn't "know" anything.
They may not have believed what they were told or what they were saying. But they didn't "know" it. That would've required more evidence and proof than they had.
But tell me more about the pee tapes that were said to probably exist... Then tell me about how good and righteous the liberal media are for always telling the truth, and never ever putting up false claims.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/christopher-steele-says-trumps-pee-tape-probably-exists
The lack of metaphysical certitude in human experience is not actually a legal defense.
They put on stuff they knew was false. At that point the burden is on them to prove it was true,
The Daily Beast is not my idea of rock solid journalism. But do you see how the link you provided has the remove you implied FOX had?
Let's shift those goalposts.
Let's move from "knew" to a "legal defense"...
But be sure not to actually post any links as to what was actually said.... That would undercut you.
This is the difference between you and me Sarcastro. I continuously provide hard evidence and links to support my statements. And you just throw pixie dust around, never supporting anything.
You are being tendentious about the word knew. They did know it was false. Because it is false.
There are plenty of links to the transcripts. They are extremely easy to Google. Pretending I’m lying because I assume you read the news is lame.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/business/media/fox-dominion-lawsuit.html
You provide nothing. And then you pretend like I’m making up current big news stories.
'I continuously provide hard evidence and links to support my statements'
You're like Brett, your links often directly contradict you.
'That would’ve required more evidence and proof than they had.'
Now there's a backhanded condemnation of their shoddy journalism.
'Then tell me about how good and righteous the liberal media are for always telling the truth, and never ever putting up false claims.'
Now, see, there's an instructive difference. Reporting someone said something about a thing, and reporting as if you believed what he said was true, with no evidence while not actually believing it yourself anyway.
For four solid years the media relentlessly pushed the outrageous, pernicious Russiagate hoax that Russia stole the 2016 election and that the President of the United States was a Russian agent. Where were Somin and his Ministry of Truth comrades then? Their newfound concern about "misinformation" rings hollow, and it is.
Here's a perspective contra Somin's hysteria. While the great "libertarian"' calls for censorship of news organizations that say things he doesn't like, I call for nothing to be done. The "problem" doesn't exist. This is hardly the first claim of a "stolen" election. As noted, the Left spent four straight years claiming the 2016 election was stolen, but, in 2020, it turned out we had always been at war with Eastasia, and suggestions that an election could be stolen were grave threats to democracy. And, of course, claims of stolen elections go back centuries, without the demand for censure, which seems to date to 2020 (The new emerging rule seems to be that it's okay for Democrats to claim an election was stolen, but it is a grave threat to democracy for Republicans to claim an election was stolen.)
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As noted, the Left spent four straight years claiming the 2016 election was stolen,
Show it. We are talking about news media. Everything which counts is published. The NYT, or even MSNBC, doing on the left what Fox did on the right ought to be right out in the open and easy to find. Show it.
Or don't bother. Trolling is hard enough as it is.
I confess, I did not expect looney right advocates to reverse course when the Fox lies got acknowledged. I did expect them to be chastened, and hard to find for commentary. But no. Here is F.D. Wolf standing tall and right out loud, as if nothing had happened.
Only someone in a coma for the entire Trump presidency could seriously claim no one in the news media questioned the legitimacy of the 2016 election. The New York Times won a Pulitzer for it.
You're like a lunatic in a fit of histrionics claiming those who don't share your unhinged agitation are the real crazies.
My position is a consistent one. I don't much care if anyone questions the legitimacy of the 2020 election, the 2016 election, or any other election, and I certainly don't believe it creates some grave threat to democracy. Your position is, "It's different when we do it."
The proper role of the media would have been to completely ignore the fact that Russia tried to interfere with the election on Trump’s behalf. The proper role of the media would be to report that the 2020 election was stolen and the Jan 6th guys were patriots. ‘It’s different when we do it because we did a different thing entirely.’
'The new emerging rule seems to be that it’s okay for Democrats to claim an election was stolen, but it is a grave threat to democracy for Republicans to claim an election was stolen'
It's okay to tell the truth, it's wrong to lie. Get the difference? Russia DID try to interfere in 2016. In the end it was deemed unlikely to have had a significant effect. So it goes. Trump knew about it and welcomed it. That's in the Mueller Report. The Report states that things get murky around the issue of actual collusion, but somehow lots of his campaign and administration staff end up going to jail or getting indicted. That's ok, he pardons them. Then, Trump and supporters started lying about the 2020 election from the first moment it looked like Trump lost. They're lying still.
Different things are not the same.
Trumps claims are of actual ballot fraud.
Dems claim improper influence of the electorate. And aren’t and never did ask for the election to be cancelled.
Dems also had evidence.
There is no double standard; there never was. One standard, different things.
For four solid years the media relentlessly pushed the outrageous, pernicious Russiagate hoax that Russia stole the 2016 election and that the President of the United States was a Russian agent.
This is a lie.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2016/12/16/the-2016-election-was-stolen-got-a-nicer-way-to-say-that/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/here-are-18-reasons-why-trump-could-be-a-russian-asset/2019/01/13/45b1b250-174f-11e9-88fe-f9f77a3bcb6c_story.html
Democracy Dies In Darkness, probably because to WaPo mugged it in an alley.
Russian interference and Trump's Russian connections were not valid journalistic subjects? You said 'hoax.' Neither of those were hoaxes, they were true.
https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html
https://news.yahoo.com/jimmy-carter-donald-trump-illegitimate-president-russia-154336913.html
But hey, it's only a former president and Donald Trump's opponent claiming that the 2016 election was stolen. It's not like they're a news network!
Of course, if you've already convinced yourself that you have the truth, it is near impossible to curb your prejudices.
Again, to sum up my position, to those who unremittingly and incessantly spent four years questioning the legitimacy of the 2016 election, and then in 2020, as if straight out of Orwell, turned on a dime and wailed that it was outrageous to question the legitimacy of an election, the only proper response is "sod off". But they'll nitterly protest, "This is different because... [blah blah blah bullshit]" But it's not different; it's just naked hypocrisy, and it doesn't escape anyone.
Now, as to those, like Somin and the "democracy defenders" who were silent through four years of "election denial", but want to pipe up now, the response is still "sod off". You had four years to express your "principles" (on the dubious presumption they are sincere". You had your chance, and you blew it.
Now, to those who said who said it was wrong then and who say it is wrong now, I offer no response, because I am unaware of the existence of any such people.
What would be a greater threat to democracy and faith in government institutions in this country: local election officials stuffing ballot boxes (which has been going on since the beginning of the Republic) or government officials murdering the President of the United States? Alleging the latter has been a cottage industry for 60 years, yet no one has ever had paroxysms insisting it is or was the job of the news media to insist everyone accept the Warren Report without question.
I am not inclined to question the 2020 results, but the incessant, tiresome bleating of, "YOU MUST ACCEPT THE RESULTS!", that has been going on for more than two years now really brings to mind the phrase "the lady doth protest too much."
Your position is that you are very mad at a thing that didn’t happen but you insist it did so now you are OK with people lying about 2020.
Also JFK and you kinda want to believe 2020 was token because of all the untrue other things you are very angry at.
Sod off is right!
No point in arguing with you, you start from like 3 utterly false premises.
Big words from someone who always argues from like 3 straw men.
No death threats against me this time?
“But left-wingers are also prone to the same dynamic.”
I guess we all have our own way to pander to our audience. There is literally no comparable situation between right and left in this context. Presumably Somin calculated he’d lose Conspirator favor if he didn’t at least toss a little both sides in his post to modestly appease the local asshats. Which, of course, never works. But hey, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take, amirite?
Translation: Ilya has completely sold out to the “dissent = misinformation” party line, to the extent of calling Trump a liar when he should know better.
Trump frequently IS a liar. Mind you, mostly it was braggadocio, nothing anybody would take seriously in any case. About policy he was pretty honest, actually, which pissed off the GOP leadership no end, because he was actually trying to carry through on promises that they'd have preferred he'd been insincere about.
But, yeah, he lied a good deal, though not remotely as often as the WaPo would have had you believe.
On the election stuff? I think he was genuinely delusional, simply couldn't accept that he had legitimately lost, albeit in a very unfair election environment.
Here's what I can't understand about all this.
There's been a lot of documentation that major Fox News hosts and executives didn't believe the "stolen election" lines. But there's been little if any showing any of these people making such claims. Best as I can tell, all they did is put OTHER people on the air to make such claims.
How big of a deal is that, legally? I've never had the understanding that anyone interviewed on one of these shows is being endorsed by the hosts or the show itself. The nature of these shows is that they put all sorts of people on, to say all sorts of things. I would have thought that would be understood by all viewers.
But if not, then ISTM that this opens the door to holding ANY show of this sort vicariously liable for anything said by their guests, if you can show that the host personally didn't believe it.
For example, I once saw a clip of Oprah hosting some nutcase who claimed that she had been part of a Jewish sect which bred babies for human sacrifice. Should Oprah be sued? That could put her in a tough spot, between either claiming that she thought the claim was reasonable, or possibly being liable for harming people (if you could find someone with some identifiable harm - probably not too hard, these days).
Maybe once, but no longer.
You still haven't told me this supposed conservative dogma.
Other good pieces of conservative dogma. Funding the police better, while supporting them reduces crime. Defunding the police and discouraging the police increases crime.
Seems you don't understand what's actually written Queenie....
1. I asked what dogma this supposedly was. Never got a response
2. I gave an example of one potential dogma.
So, a case of large scale voting fraud demonstrates that large scale voting fraud would be difficult to carry out?
You don't see the logical problem there, eh?