The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
More Pork! And the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
A few more words about the constitutional status of animal cruelty laws
In a posting a few days ago, I discussed the Nat'l Pork Producers' Council v. Ross case now before the Supreme Court, in which the NPPC is challenging, on "dormant commerce clause" grounds, a California law that makes it unlawful to sell pork in CA if the seller knows (or should know) that the meat came from a breeding pig that was confined "in a cruel manner" (as defined in the statute).
The NPPC has two main arguments, the most prominent being that the law represents improper "extra-territorial" law-making, inasmuch as it amounts, in effect, to compelling out-of-state pork breeders to change their business practices. As I discussed in the earlier post, I would be surprised if the Court adopts this tack.
Their second argument, which I admitted had me scratching my head, is that the law imposes, in NPPC's words, "excessive burdens on interstate commerce without advancing any legitimate local interest." California's "philosophical preferences about conduct occurring almost entirely outside California," and its "desire to prevent what California considers animal cruelty that is occurring entirely outside the State's borders," cannot justify the burdens imposed on pork producers nationwide.
As many commenters pointed out, I didn't do a particularly good job explaining why I found this claim confusing. Let me try again.
I think it's their use of that word "legitimate" that threw me.
Let's start with some propositions with which everyone agrees:
- Preventing animal cruelty in California is a perfectly "legitimate" interest, under California's "police power." California may pursue this interest through legislation - banning, say, dog-fighting, bear-baiting, or particular forms of animal confinement, within the State.
- Animal cruelty laws are not - and do not need to be - justified as "health and safety" measures. The health and safety of Californians are unaffected by the existence (or not) of organized dog-fighting rings within the state. These laws rest, for want of a better descriptor, on "public morals"; as the Supreme Court put it many years ago, a State's police power encompasses all "laws in relation to persons and property within its borders as may promote the public health, the public morals, and the general prosperity and safety of its inhabitants." W. Union Tel. Co. v. James, 162 U.S. 650, 653 (1896). Californians, speaking through their legislators, may declare that it is morally objectionable to treat animals in certain ways, and that they don't want to live in a society that tolerates such treatment.
- California may also, of course, enact "health and safety" regulation regarding animals, or animal products, sold in California - banning, say, products deemed to be improperly labeled, unsafe, or unhealthy.
- This kind of ordinary health and safety regulation often has "incidental" effects on out-of-state businesses; businesses that choose to sell their goods in California will have to comply with California law as to those products shipped into California, and this may require them to alter their manufacturing or marketing practices.
- That burden on out-of-state businesses will not invalidate the regulation under the dormant commerce clause unless it is "clearly excessive" when compared to the local benefits. So if California's purpose is to eliminate trichinosis, a common pork parasite, it can regulate the pork coming into the state, and the burdens that this may impose on out-of-state pork producers will be weighed against the local benefits (reduced disease) in California to determine whether the law meets dormant commerce clause requirements.
As I say, none of this is controversial or contentious.
Here, though, is where things get complicated: The NPPC's position is that "public morals" laws should be treated differently for purposes of analysis under the dormant commerce clause from laws based on a "health and safety" rationale. The local benefits of health and safety regulation count, for purposes of the dormant commerce clause balancing test; the local benefits of "public morals" laws do not. Public morals laws, they assert, yield no local benefits - as a matter of law - to be weighed in the dormant commerce clause balance; they are thus per se invalid to the extent they impose any burdens at all on out-of-state businesses.
From the NPCC Brief (emphases added):
"Put simply, state laws that project extraterritorially but bear no relation to internal public safety or public order are beyond the police power of a state or locality and thus violate the commerce clause. . . .
Although safeguarding the welfare of domestic animals is a valid exercise of police power, a law that attempts to address perceived harms to animals in other States is not. California's interest in preventing perceived animal cruelty is not a legitimate reason for regulating the production of goods outside its borders. . . .
Under this Court's cases, a law with extraterritorial effects on commerce that has no local benefits exceeds the police power and violates the Commerce Clause. Proposition 12 is a textbook example of [such a law]. . . .
A state law that governs commerce extraterritorially is unconstitutional if, though clothed as police-power regulations it bears no reasonable relation to some purpose within the competency of the state to effect. . . .
[California] does not invoke any legitimate interest in avoiding in-state harm.
I now understand my own confusion better than I did before. The State of California's brief calls the NPCC's argument "remarkable," and I think they're correct. Where does this two-tiered system for dormant commerce clause analysis come from? Why does the interest that Californians evidently have in whether their local grocery stores and other retailers are contributing to a market that they view as immoral - an interest that is squarely within their "police power" - not count for dormant commerce clause purposes?
Perhaps there is an answer to these questions, but they don't pop out at me (and they're not clearly spelled out in the NPCC's briefs). [Please note that I'm not saying that the NPCC's theory here is wrong - just that I don't quite get where it comes from, or understand what its implications might be]
And lest you think that this is all much ado about nothing, consider the current controversies about State abortion restrictions. Don't they, like animal cruelty laws, rest on a "public morals" rationale? A number of States (see here) have, or are considering, enacting laws prohibiting out-of-state suppliers of abortion-inducing drugs from sending their products into the State. If the NPCC's position prevails here, aren't those laws per se invalid under the dormant commerce clause?
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"I didn't do a particularly good job explaining"
A day ending in "y".
Potshots from a lawyers whose career apex involves sitting in an office in Can't-Keep-Up, Ohio (the part of Ohio that might as well be in West Virginia, Mississippi, or Idaho), proofreading a series of $31,600 residential deeds, and seething about all of this damned progress that has made his country inhospitable to the superstitious, bigoted, downscale, right-wing losers he adores.
Bob from Ohio - You really need to find another hobby (besides waiting around for me to publish something and then pouncing so that you can be the first commenter, with one of your snarky and rather ridiculous comments).
Under the NPCC rule a ban on abortion pills does have local benefits, namely the reduction in abortion. It is unlike the challenged pork rule where two indistinguishable kinds of meat are treated differently depending on the morality of out of state actions.
The other thing is they are banning it outright, like Massachusetts has "assault" weapons. That's different from banning ones made by specific "bad boy" manufacturers.
You underscore the local benefits of the anti-cruelty law as well when you refer to it as "indistinguishable." You're referring, of course, to the final product on the shelf and not the means by which it arrived there; it's very distinguishable to the pig, for example. But if it is indistinguishable on the shelf then this law provides the benefit of ensuring the meat is cruelty-free, which is something Californians clearly care about. Californians have the benefit of not having to worry or avoid pork as they can now distinguish between the two easily. Reduction in the sale of cruelly sourced meat and reduction in abortions are both benefits related to local morality.
Is the ultimate cruelty pampering the pig right up until it's stunned and then has its throat slit?
Asking for a friend.
"Under the NPCC rule a ban on abortion pills does have local benefits, namely the reduction in abortion."
Reducing abortions isn't a benefit if the pregnant person wants to have one. Interfering with individual liberty is always a bad thing.
The issue with the California law is that, since the production of pork in California is very close to zero, the law that California passed targets out of state businesses exclusively. You tell me what the legal system should do with this because I don’t know, but it seems fundamentally wrong
Begs the question - does California have laws prohibiting the sale within the state of products manufactured with slave labor or underaged labor? If they do, why aren’t they enforced? Or are they treating the tech industry differently than the pork industry for some incomprehensible reason?
It doesn't seem wrong to me, because your comment is wrong. It doesn’t "target" out of state businesses at all, let alone exclusively. It may largely affect out of state businesses, but that's an accident of geography, not the point of the law.
Deny it all you want, but the intent is obvious and clear. They had to be aware of the impact when the law was approved. It isn't an accident of geography, it's the entire point.
David carries water for Dems now.
And Bevis and Bob are still trying to read minds.
No, it isn't the point. The point is not to discriminate against out of state suppliers. The point is to control the pork sold in the state, regardless of its origin.
Being aware of the impact does not convert a disparate impact to an intentional result.
Given the ratios of production, I don't think that counts as a mere "accident of geography". The gross disparity turns the argument into "it's a pretext" - and that does (or at least, should) turn it back into a legitimate question of law, I think.
More to the point, I think the proper moral argument (though not a legal one) is that government has no place in this decision at all. If California consumers want to buy pork of a certain provenance, they can and should express their preferences individually through their market choices rather than imposing them based on questionable majoritarian morality.
It doesn’t seem wrong to me, because your comment is wrong. It doesn’t “target” out of state businesses at all, let alone exclusively. It may largely affect out of state businesses, but that’s an accident of geography, not the point of the law.
Right, because who knew that the impact of regulations based on the way something is produced - when that something is almost entirely imported by your state - would fall almost entirely on the producers of that thing outside of your state?
Do you actually read what you're writing anymore?
Just as the importation of abortion pills or alcohol is entirely external. But we've still got states that regulate the importation of alcohol and would like to limit abortion and contraception medication as well. Where it is produced doesn't seem to be that significant of a thing, especially when there's no particular producing state that might be targeted; pork and pills and alcohol are produced in a variety of states.
"A number of States (see here) have, or are considering, enacting laws prohibiting out-of-state suppliers of abortion-inducing drugs from sending their products into the State. If the NPCC's position prevails here, aren't those laws per se invalid under the dormant commerce clause?"
In a word, no. The actual prohibited conduct, and harm to be averted, happens in state in this case. The prohibition is on shipping a product that enables the illegal conduct.
Now, if California had a state low prohibiting eating pork raised in a 'cruel' manner, it would be a closer analog, because selling the pork in state would be enabling illegal conduct.
But the real problem here is that "raised in a cruel manner" isn't a property of the pork. It is purely conduct occurring outside the state. It's no different than if California prohibited the sale of pork raised at farms which didn't pay the California minimum wage, or at farms that cooperated with immigration law enforcement.
Hypothetically speaking, let's suppose that A)video surfaces of Chinese overseers (wearing Mao jackets and the puffy hat with a red star) whipping Uighur 10 year olds in iPhone factories for working too slowly. California votes to ban importation of cell phones made with slave labor.
Do you object to that? Your argument is that an iPhone assembled by highly paid workers in New Zealand and one assembled by child slave labor in China have the same 'properties' because they are physically identical, so you have to treat the ones from NZ and China the same? That seems like a stretch to me.
Do I morally object to that? Not particularly. Do I legally object to it? Absolutely. Congress could do that, though, and really ought to.
Brett - But the real problem here is that “raised in a cruel manner” isn’t a property of the pork. It is purely conduct occurring outside the state. It’s no different than if California prohibited the sale of pork raised at farms which didn’t pay the California minimum wage, or at farms that cooperated with immigration law enforcement.
That's a good way to put it. But I guess my question is why does the law have to concern the property of the pork to be constitutional? If California had enacted this law for health/safety reasons, I can see it. But this law is concededly not about that. [A majority of] Californians don't want to live in a society that is cruel to animals in this particular way. They can't impose that view on Iowa farmers (the way they can impose that view on CA farmers); they can't order them to treat their pigs a certain way. But why can't they say that they don't want their grocers and butchers - the ones selling pork in California - to participate in the system that relies on that sort of cruelty?
Abortion pills have a tangible, physical effect (they end a life). Extra-territorial public morals laws have a psychic effect. That said, unless the feds say otherwise, a state should be able to do things like ban products arising from child labor, etc.
"Abortion pills have a tangible, physical effect"
Yes, they do.
"(they end a life)"
No, they don't.
Let's say for instance a Republican state says: "we find it morally repugnant to practice affirmative action on the basis of skin color." And on that basis prohibits any business with such a practice from practicing commerce in their state, and they even go beyond that and prohibit any business in their state from conducting commerce anywhere in the world with any business with such an affirmative action policy.
These kinds of moral claims about other jurisdictions (and trying to use their market power to force changes in other jurisdictions) quite easily expand and cause retaliation in a way that can easily result in balkanization of the interstate commerce market. That is precisely the reason why interstate commerce regulation was withdrawn from the state's authority to regulate, and instead placed in the federal government's hands.
The correct analogy would be banning everyone from conducting commerce with.
Devin Watkins: These kinds of moral claims about other jurisdictions (and trying to use their market power to force changes in other jurisdictions) quite easily expand and cause retaliation in a way that can easily result in balkanization of the interstate commerce market. That is precisely the reason why interstate commerce regulation was withdrawn from the state’s authority to regulate, and instead placed in the federal government’s hands.
Though I am sympathetic to California's argument here, I do think that this is the telling objection that probably tilts the scale, for me, in the other direction. It does look like the slipperiest of slopes - there are so many ways that the people of California and the people of Kansas can express their distaste for one another. It's a weird kind of Balkanization of the national market, one that has nothing to do with protectionism, which is the usual culprit in these dormant commerce clause cases. But it is the thing that the DCC is supposed to protect against.
This is the obvious case for "private business" to act.
Stop selling pork in CA. Period. Processed or raw, packaged or not, no pork to CA until this law is repealed. Spend you entire advertising budget telling the citizens to talk to their legislature, or give up on pork entirely.
The state will cave within two months or there will be "peaceful protests" in every city in the state.
As a bonus, this will allow a breather for the supply chain.
" The state will cave within two months "
Yeah, the foundering hayseeds of Indiana, West Virginia, Iowa, Oklahoma, Missouri, Nebraska, Mississippi, and other Republican states will bring those poor bastards in California to their knees . . . just like they always do.
The Volokh Conspiracy is increasingly produced by and for delusional, disaffected, inconsequential culture war casualties.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters (including your president and the deans of legitimate law schools) will let know just how far, though.
YES!!!!
The CA law is constitutional and pork producers can comply and continue to sell in CA, or not comply and not sell in CA.
Just the way things are supposed to be.
Congratulations on your appointment as the new Supreme Court.
"Stop selling pork in CA. "
You aren't a pork producer. Its 13% of the market
Try reducing your revenue by an immediate 13% and see what happens to your business.
Given the demand for pork in China, I'd bet they could sell the 13% that CA buys in a heartbeat.
Smithfield is already owned by a Chinese company, so I'm sure they're already selling to China. I would be shocked if any major producer isn't.
Could California enact a total ban on the possession and sale of pork products in the state, without running afoul of the Commerce Clause or other aspect of the Constitution?
Such a ban would have an even greater adverse effect on the pork industry than the law that the NPPC's challenging. But I find it hard to imagine grounds on which it could be found unconstitutional.
Moreover, the 13%-of-the-market argument suggests that there must be some threshhold above which a California-type law would violate the Commerce Clause, while smaller jurisdictions would be allowed to enact an identical law. Is it constitutional for, say, Delaware to enact such a law, but not California?
You know, if hte law was supposed to kick in the day after it was signed, you might have had a point.
But it's been years now. If they're unprepared for a loss in court, that's a choice they made.
Boo freaking hoo.
My revenue increases (or decreases) by at least 13 percent most years. It varies in part by how much I wish to work, in part by the course of matters I have agreed to handle.
I declined at least half of the engagements offered to me in recent years, maybe more.
When my revenue decreases, I don't cry about it, or try to use it as a reason to defend crappy political or legal positions.
The essential problem is that the pork market doesn't consist of top to bottom vertically integrated companies. If it did, that solution would be drop dead easy, and it would suck to be a Californian who likes bacon.
The retail sellers are bound by the law, the pork producers are the ones engaged in the conduct it regulates. In between you have auction houses, slaughterhouses, distributors.
At every stage there are contractual obligations that would get in the way of the boycott, and a degree of 'fan out' that means that it would be tremendously complex to manage a system where pork headed to California was treated differently.
Essentially the whole industry has to adopt the California compliance, or boycott California, or take on tremendous costs to enable tracking everything, such that just caving to California starts to look cheaper. Which is what California is counting on.
Maybe not. I've seen *cases* of Florida Oranges sometimes labeled as not to be distributed beyond a certain highway (I-5) -- these are the big wholesale boxes that the grocers then break down into retail containers.
Most pork comes cryovaced and in large cardboard boxes -- it would be easy to label both the plastic cryovac and the boxes as "not legal to sell in California."
Sure, applying the label would be easy. But California isn't asking for a label, they're asking that it be truthful.
That means the people applying the label would have to know what was happening at the farm, for every piece of pork showing up on the line. And I'm telling you, that's not the way the pork industry is organized.
A new regulation requires that the supply chain makes minor changes to accomodate the regulation? UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Is California prepared to send their pork inspectors to every producing State to verify their husbandry practices?
Are those States willing to let California pork inspectors do that?
SCOTUS could shrug and say "California's law, let California enforce it, at California's expense."
I have a memory from my youth about a grocery store in SoCal proudly selling Florida oranges. The store was built on a site that was previously an orange grove.
Valencia oranges (the majority of what is grown in Florida) are way better (IMHO) than the navel oranges we get in California. But even in Florida, a lot of the eating oranges are grown in California because, for reasons I never understood, navels are preferred for this. Valencia's are largely juiced.
Limitations of moving citrus West of I-5, as a guess, were attempts to limit the spread of invasive insects that could (and then did) devastate the citrus industry in California. When I lived in Florida, the state would routinely install insect traps in my grapefruit tree in my front yard. This was common for all "dooryard" citrus on Florida as a means to track harmful insect populations. I haven't seen that here in California, though I live in an area where citrus is limited to lemons and limes.
Some years back, the City of San Francisco passed an ordinance forbidding the City to do business with any vendor that didn't have a policy allowing gay employees to put their partners on their insurance (this was pre-gay marriage). Some Southern state (not sure but I think it was Virginia) responded by passing a law forbidding the state to do business with any business that did have such a policy.
I understand the desire to impose one's moral values on other people, but at some point there's a limit on just how much one can do that and legitimately call it commerce. I also see the distinction between a ban on goods made by slave labor (which goes to the goods themselves) versus a ban on goods made by companies that have religious or moral policies that legislators elsewhere object to (which do not go to the goods themselves).
So I think I would limit the ability of legislatures to ban things just to make moral statements, but I would allow them to ban things that have themselves been produced in an immoral way, such as through slave labor.
So, a couple points.
1. Who the State does business with (as a government) is different from passing laws for the state as a whole. States and the Federal Government regularly give small business or minority-owned business set asides, in terms of their contracts. Those are generally Constitutional.
If instead, the state passed a law saying minority-owned businesses MUST be given a rate 10% above that of non-minority businesses, by every other party, that would likely be illegal discrimination.
2. "but I would allow them to ban things that have themselves been produced in an immoral way, such as through slave labor"
That's a pretty big loophole there. Bearing in mind that slave labor is illegal nationwide. Is it immoral to use labor that is paid only $10 an hour? Or immoral to use labor that is "incentivized" to obtain abortions?
Yes, there is a difference between whom the state does business with, and whom the general public does business with. But my comment was directed to what I consider good policy, and not what is required or forbidden by the Constitution. I think commerce of regulation should, in general, be restricted to issues related to the goods themselves.
With respect to labor that is only paid $10 an hour, the question there is whether one state can in essence impose a minimum wage on the rest of the nation and I think the answer to that is probably no, for commerce clause reasons. With respect to abortion, unless you are in the business of making abortion pills, I don't see how any good you produce is likely to incentivize abortion.
By the way, there was a very silly lawsuit, I think in the 6th Circuit, some years back in which a woman who objected to pornography took a job at either Playboy or Hustler and then sued, claiming that the manufacture of pornography constituted a hostile work environment given her views on the subject. She lost. As she should have.
"With respect to labor that is only paid $10 an hour, the question there is whether one state can in essence impose a minimum wage on the rest of the nation and I think the answer to that is probably no, for commerce clause reasons."
OK. I agree with you, but let's work through the logic on why that is such by presenting the other side.
Can't companies just segregate their workforce? Those that produce products to CA, and those that produce products to the rest of the country? And they don't have to sell in CA, right? CA is just regulating what is sold in CA, it's not actually imposing a law on the rest of the country.
What's the response to these types of arguments?
It would depend on how well or badly written the California statute is. Not having read it, my best guess is that merely segregating the workforces would probably not be sufficient, but you could create different corporate entities, one for California and one for everywhere else. The California entity might require its own facilities, if the statute contains language about not producing pork at any facility that doesn't meet California standards.
And 20 years ago, Massachusetts had a law that any company doing business with the state (or towns) could not also do business with the British Army in Northern Ireland.
The difference is that the state can define who *IT* will do business with -- the Cali law involves private businesses.
The California law provides for a regulation on the nature of a product sold within its borders. Lots of states have laws that do this for all sorts of things from alcohol and tobacco to baby formula or citrus. Even the federal government does this. Outside of the "free market" purists, no one blinks an eye at age limits on some products, the requirements for prescriptions, or laws requiring certain labeling or ingredients. All of these involve product limitations levied on private business.
What are the penalties for violating this law and who would the be applied to?
Likely fines, applied to the pork producer
Wrong, because the pork producer isn't in California to begin with.
It's fines paid by the retailer, or maybe the distributor, neither of which produces any pork.
So that would be the power of California to regulate California businesses, correct? If California passes a law that places requirements on California retail or wholesale businesses (and fines them if they don't comply), wouldn't that be entirely within California's power?
Which raises the question of how a producer is supposed to control whom his product is sold to. It's a two hour trip from Nevada, and unlike bringing eggs in from Canada or Mexico (which is illegal because of customs), is there any law about taking pork across a state line?
The other question I have is with most (not all) of the ports in California, what happens with pork bound for Asia? Unless it's flown (and it may be), that's a definite barrier to interstate commerce.
Per below: “The measure also makes it illegal for businesses in California to knowingly sell eggs (including liquid eggs) or uncooked pork or veal that came from animals housed in ways that do not meet the measure’s requirements. This sales ban applies to products from animals raised in California or out-of-state. The sales ban generally does not apply to foods that have eggs, pork, or veal as an ingredient or topping (such as cookie dough and pizza).”
Somehow, all your scenarios don't apply to the law as written.
As many have pointed out, what is the logical stopping point for such an interpretation of the law? What moral judgements on production of an item can't be made, in terms of interstate commerce?
I look forward to the intrepid development of arguments for gun control based on this.
I'm a gun safety advocate and I cannot think of any way this type of law would generally prevent importation of guns. If a particular limit on guns is legal, the state could just ban that configuration. There would be no need for a law like this.
Also, California's animal cruelty law may not last long after the price increases hit the markets. Politicians with any experience are expert at reading the mood of the public and adjusting. If they don't, they'll lose an election. That's how our democracy works, right? So if the law doesn't have support, it won't last long.
I haven't read the briefs, but doesn't Philadelphia v. New Jersey (the garbage case) push a lot towards the pork producers' position? What's the difference between garbage and caged pork?
A vegan would say there's no difference at all between garbage and caged pork, or any other kind of pork.
And if vegans were a majority they could outlaw the consumption of all meat because of the idiot belief that majorities constitute a moral foundation. Of course they could always use the public health ruse as an alternative.
We love democracy!
Until we don't.
I’ve never loved democracy, nor did the Founders. Nor do the progressives who only love democracy when it validates the rules decided upon by the technocrats.
This was another example of direct democracy in action - just like the infamous Prop 13. Stupid people vote, often in large numbers.
Yeah, but your practical problem is who then gets to decide which ideas are stupid.
As one who supports more democracy than we currently have, I will acknowledge that the majority doesn't always get it right, but it probably gets it right at least as often as the minority does.
The difference is that NJ's law discriminated against interstate commerce, while this law treats in-state and out-of-state pork producers the same.
The problem is they don't have direct control of out of state production, particularly with processing, wholesale levels intervening.
Who exactly will the law be enforced upon? The retailer in CA?
Does the law also apply to pork imported from outside of the US?
Yes.
Yes. The law bans the sale of such pork in the state.
Why is this a problem?
In-state producers are regulated. In-state sales of pork are regulated regardless of source. Seems pretty straight forward to me. If you want to do business in the state of California, the products you manufacture or offer for sale in the state--whatever they are--need to meet California regulations.
Not so fast. Obviously, NJ could come up with all sorts of regulations relating to garbage. Is Phila v. NJ so easily evaded?
"law treats in-state and out-of-state pork producers the same"
California has few pork producers, all located in GOP leaning areas. Increasing costs for the CA farms is a bonus.
Imagine the opportunity for pork shops right outside the statelines in OR and NV - places like the fireworks retailers in states bordering states that ban the sales of fireworks.
Yup. A 4 hour drive from LA to get bacon in Primm. Sounds like it's totally worth it? Gas is free and so is time, right?
If you make $1/lb profit and bring back just one ton, that's a nice day's paycheck...
WRONG!
The CA law treats in- and out-of-state pork producers THE SAME.
Matter of fact it does address where producers are located at all.
It merely says if you sell pork in CA then you must comply with certain requirements.
As I asked above, does this apply to foreign imports?
No more Krakus hams and prosciutto de Parma.
It's actually carefully drafted to not apply to them. It only applies to raw, minimally processed pork. Not sausage, not cured pork.
Here's what the law sez:
"The measure also makes it illegal for businesses in California to knowingly sell eggs (including liquid eggs) or uncooked pork or veal that came from animals housed in ways that do not meet the measure’s requirements. This sales ban applies to products from animals raised in California or out-of-state. The sales ban generally does not apply to foods that have eggs, pork, or veal as an ingredient or topping (such as cookie dough and pizza)."
So does "out-of-state" mean US states only and not international imports?
IANAL so don't know the answer.
"Out of state" isn't in the statute at all, so it's irrelevant. Again: the statute bans the sale of — well, here, I'll quote it:
b) A business owner or operator shall not knowingly engage in the sale within the state of any of the following:
(2) Whole pork meat that the business owner or operator knows or should know is the meat of a covered animal who was confined in a cruel manner, or is the meat of immediate offspring of a covered animal who was confined in a cruel manner.
(And "confined in a cruel manner" is defined elsewhere in the statute by the amount of square footage the animal has.)
Thanks, now that you mention it I recall this being pointed out elsewhere. However, will it effect imports of minimally processed pork?
There are no in-state producers.
Sure there are. The largest producer of "pork" in CA is the legislature.
Why does the interest that Californians evidently have in whether their local grocery stores and other retailers are contributing to a market that they view as immoral – an interest that is squarely within their "police power" – not count for dormant commerce clause purposes?"
The immorality ceases to exist once the pig is butchered.
But notwithstanding that, try this: Massachusetts won't permit a store that has a pharmacy to also sell cigarettes -- this includes large grocery stores and Walmarts.
Can you imagine if Massachusetts wouldn't permit these stores to have pharmacies because their stores IN OTHER STATES sold cigarettes? Or as to morals, there used to be magazines such a Penthouse and Playboy -- which conservative communities did not want sold. But could they refuse convenience chain stores from opening in their state because they sold such magazines in other states?
Or ban all produce from California because it was picked by illegal aliens?
Actually, could other states do to Cali what its doing -- prohibit the sale of produce picked by illegals?
Probably.
Yes. What’s sauce for the goose is absolutely sauce for the gander.
California; The Karen State.
Maybe this issue can be taken out of the courts.
NPPC objects to California's requirements for pork husbandry? Stop marketing, distributing, and selling pork in California.
California will eventually outlaw internal-combustion-powered automobiles, so stop selling them there too. There are already numerous California-unique requirements on automobiles that ultimately add to the cost of every automobile sold everywhere, because it's too troublesome to manufacture models just for California.
California requires electricity delivered in their state to be some shade of green, as if it can be sorted ampere for ampere. Stop selling that to them too, if they haven't started refusing it anyway.
And all of this runs into anti-trust problems, because it has to be organized.
As I said, if the pork industry consisted of vertically integrated companies each doing everything from raising the pigs to retail sails, California could be boycotted by individual firms, and probably would be, except for a few companies that found that market worth catering to.
But it’s not a vertically integrated market, and as a practical matter boycotting California would require coordinated action. Which would be an anti-trust violation.
So are you just entirely unaware that the FDA regularly tracks the origins of tainted food back to the farm, counting all the factories it passed through along the way, so they can accurately warn people who may have been exposed ot the tainted food?
The organization is already here dude.
And the FDA has national reach, which means that all the farms already have to comply. You may be tracking where stuff came from, but you're not sending it here vs there depending on that, you're just recording it.
It really does add considerable complexity to make sure that no pork from Bob's Happy Acres will ever show up in California.
CA Grocery Store to processing plant: I need X amount of pork products.
processing plant to intermediary: I need X amount of CA-compliant pork products.
intermediary to intermediary: I need X amount of CA-compliant pork products.
Intermedia to CA-compliant farm: I need X amount of CA-compliant pork products.
CA-compliant farm to intermediary: okay, heading your way.
Intermediary to intermediary: okay, heading your way
Intermediary to processing plant: okay, heading your way
processing plant to CA grocery store: okay, heading your way.
So complex.
If pork could be processed, packed, stored, and shipped by a series of phone calls or emails, this would be an unbelievable mic-drop moment.
Passively tracking the origin of the various animals that go through the system is not remotely the same as actively controlling the traversal through the system of specific animals from specific origins. The latter is what creates a new layer of significant complexity, essentially requiring two parallel sets of processing/packaging/storage. And the cost of a mistake in identification/labeling/routing, currently next to nothing, becomes anything but.
It requires one more bit of data for stuff they are already tracking. One bit. They'd probably use a whole byte 'cause one bit isn't worth the effort.
So one byte of extra data. On something they are already tracking.
Y'all are in serious denial regarding how much tracking in our food supply is already happening.
You're missing the point. It's not an issue of collecting data. It's an issue of acting on data, in a highly automated, distributed system that is currently set up to treat pork as the fungible product it is. That entire set of processes now has to be modified to physically segregate "Pork Type A" from "Pork Type B" at all times through the system, from slaughter to final distribution.
"Which would be an anti-trust violation." Agreed.
NPPC could argue in court that the pork supply chain has been arranged to the goal of adequate quality (free from parasites, free from spoilage or contamination) and lowest cost. The supply chain as it stands today emerged from competition and efficiency.
SCOTUS could reply that "not our fault your supply chain isn't optimized for a third, 'animal cruelty regulation' goal."
"Well, we could try to just abandon that market because our supply chain can't handle it, but if we did we'd end up having to reconfigure that supply chain in a manner that exposes us to anti-trust prosecution. We're criminally damned if we do and expensively damned if we don't. In the latter case, we pass that expense to every customer, not just California. Is the law supposed to let California do that to every American consumer of this commodity?"
"the FDA has national reach" and is intended to enforce only national standards, not hundreds of them.
Within the scope of the police power is precisely the problem, because there is no scope to that – the reach is infinite (except where bounded by the Bill of Rights). Particularly for morals issues – yay malum prohibitum. Of course I’m speaking to the philosophy of governance, not the state of the law. It was considered within the bounds of the police power to intrude on the marital bedroom under the Comstock law of CT, until Griswold. Even then, Griswold didn't condemn the over-reach, it just carved out an exception to be found in emanations and penumbras.
Democrats push anything they can to make Americans' lives worse. Your life will be made worse because … "animal cruelty" … this time. Something else next time.
If by "the Democrats" you mean "63% of the state's voters", then yes, you're right. Good point.
7.5M votes in favor out of 19M registered voters. So 63% of votes cast, not of the state's voters. Minority rule!
If that's the standard you want to set, then I doubt there's more then a handful of Senators or Representatives who have a legitimate claim to their seat.
Suits me.
Anti-government cranks are among my favorite culture war casualties and inconsequential misfits.
And out of about 30M adults. I wonder how many of the 7.5M (~25%) eat pork at all.
But Democrats say the same things about Republicans. They say Republicans tell you your life will be made worse because… “abortion” (among other things), and push it only to make people’s lives miserable. It’s exactly what you’re saying here.
The dormant commerce clause appears to be (to apply a Clarence Thomas quote) ‘disfavored’. Which is not good.
Any attempt by a state to regulate or tax any activity that does not wholly occur inside said state should be invalid.
California is a frequent offender (gas cans, pork, auto emissions), because the size of their population & some preferential federal legislation gives them substantial extraterritorial power…
But it’s not just CA… It’s every state collecting sales tax on internet purchases… Any state wishing to regulate travel for the purpose of obtaining an abortion… Any state who's laws cause the entire nation to live under that state's requirements (California and 'CARB compliant' gasoline jerry cans being the best example)... ESPECIALLY any state wishing to regulate the business practices of social-media companies…
This is, perhaps, a far more important issue than *anything* that is typically discussed in judicial confirmations.
The federal government should be the only entity empowered to impact - even ever so slightly - interstate commerce with regulation.
The Commerce Clause is a simple grant of power to Congress. What right do courts have to use it to impose their own policy views on the nation?
If Congress think the principles behind the Dormant Commerce Clause are good policy, it can simply enact a statute saying so. And if it doesn’t enact a statute, why should courts have any power to act? A grant of power to Congress is a grant of power to Congress. It gives courts only the power to enforce Congress’ directives, not power to impose their own policy views independent of what Congress says.
Let’s consider the policy merits of your view. State A enacts a statute making it illegal for someone in another state to fire a gun across the state line that hits someone inside their state. That certainly is an “activity that doesn’t occur wholly inside said state.”Invalid?
State B makes it illegal for someone to fire a gun in their state that hits someone in another state. That also is an “activity that doesn’t occur wholly inside said state” (no damage of any kind occured within the state). Invalid?
I think the distinction between morals and non-morals laws is harder to make than Professor Post allows.
But the distinction between laws I agree with and laws I don’t agree with is always very easy to make.
I so find it interesting how easily the commenters can explain why laws implementing moral principles they agree with aren’t really morals laws, while laws implementing moral principles they disagree with are.
"Of course how something is made is a property of the thing."
Of course, it is NOT. If the way it's made isn't reflected in the arrangement of the molecules, and thus subject to being determined by laboratory testing of the thing, rather than observing the process, it's NOT a property of the thing.
Objects don't carry around some ghostly history of what went on around them in the past. All their properties are self-contained within them, and if not even theoretically capable of being determined by examining the thing, they aren't properties.
Sure, they can rule themselves. The rest of us just wish they'd stop at ruling themselves, and cease trying to rule everybody else, too.
It "inconveniences" Americans.
Do you think robots produce pork products? Reduce sales by 13%, people are getting laid off.
We have a common internal market for a reason. Its a major reason why we have a Constitution, states were interfering with trade.
...but is it enforced?
Thanks for the link to the Illinois law, Queen Almathea. A couple of points, interesting but somewhat tangential to the main article—
1) I see that the Illinois law applies only to products produced abroad by child labor and imported into the United States. It doesn't appear to cover domestic products made wholly or in part by under-12s.
2) Child labor is quite common on US farms. Per the US Department of Labor, under federal law "Minors of any age may be employed by their parents at any time in any occupation on a farm owned or operated by his or her parent(s)." In Illinois, in fact, the minimum age for agricultural employment outside school hours is 10.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/agriculturalemployment
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor/agriculture#Illinois
The Texas law affects people in Texas. You know, the way state laws are supposed to work.
It's one thing if a law has a secondary effect on people out of state, it's another thing if the law is a freebie to in state residents but hammers everyone else.
"aborted fetal tissue " is not a product but a deceased human that should be treated with dignity.
But let's get rid of all those other laws too.
Queen Almathea: Nice comment. I hadn't seen this list of import restrictions based on "public morals"-type justifications. Very interesting. If NPCC prevails in this case - and it certainly might - it would seem to me all of these laws would be of questionable constitutionality - though I also suspect that there would be a mad scramble to come up with "health and safety" justifications for them.
"Nine states (California, Hawaii, Illinois, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Nevada, New Jersey, and Virginia) ban the in-state sale of cosmetics that have been tested on animals."
This goes a step beyond California's pork rules. Cosmetics made from organic vegan free range tofu in fair trade factories are still illegal if ten years earlier somebody dabbed a sample of a similar chemical on a rabbit's eye.
Sure it will. If upheld and pork producers comply it will raise the price of pork for all Americans and to any countries that buy American pork.
If pork producers resist and refuse to comply will an antitrust suit be far behind?
California's law affects the people in California. If it is allowed to go into effect, the price of pork products in the state is going to go up significantly.
If pork sellers are willing to segregate their stock, then they can pass this price increase entirely onto California customers. If they choose not to, and instead apply California's standards to every state, then that's their choice, not something California is forcing on them.
And no, I don't buy the "we could never segregate our stock like that! impossible!" argument. If they can trace a batch of tainted lettuce sold in a random grocery store back to the farm it came from and then reverse-track that to every othe rplace that got lettuce from the same batch, they can track pork products similarly.
They just don't want to because if this law goes into effect it will hurt profits.
Ah, so you're admitting this is a religious law, not a secular law. Glad to see you've managed to recognize that. Too bad for you the government isn't supposed to engage in religious lawmaking.
Queen, "immorality" isn't an objective property of any object. It's a moral property of an activity. As a Catholic I'm supposed to avoid complicity in immoral activities, which, sure, may mean not buying things that were produced in an immoral manner. That's why, for instance, I don't buy Nike products: I avoid products produced using slave labor when I can. (Modern distribution chains can make that quite hard.) Ditto for Apple products; I may own an IPad, but only because I won it in a raffle, I'd never buy anything they sell, and their use of slave labor in China is a large part of that.
But the problem with Nike's shoes, say, is not a property of the shoes. It's a practice taking place in China.
Which is why lab-grown diamonds are treated and regulated the same as blood diamonds, and why no one is concerned about the provenance of jewels.
And why there's no pre-emptive freakout about lab-grown meat.
Let's extend this analogy.
Can California mandate that materials sold in CA must be produced by workers making a minimum wage of $10 an hour.
Why or why not?
I'll respectfully disagree.
If all Californians stopped buying pork products (zero chance of that) the decrease in demand from that market would result in producers decreasing supply or seeking substitute markets or both.
...as provided by a republican form of government.
Queen, please don't be stupid. The Founders that provided for ONE part of ONE branch to be popularly elected and intended for the 'passions' of that component to be balanced against the anti-democratic Senate. The Founders that intended for the Executive to be elected but not by popular vote.
Oh, and that consent that was withdrawn from the English Sovereign.
Michael Vick buddy?
...but they are happy to buy the products of child and slave labor.
So enlightened.
Your logic assumes that pork producers will comply. They have no reason to as California cannot penalize them; at best California can penalize the part of the supply chain within California, retail certainly, possibly wholesale. The rest of us consumers will benefit from the excess pork in our markets - yay for cheaper bacon!
Republican form does not necessarily preclude direct democracy. That means republican as opposed to, say, a monarchy. But a republic can decide for itself how much or how little democracy it wants as part of its polity.
The law protected Vick. My lovely, sweet wife would've done far worse to him or any other abuser than the punishment the law metes out.
You’re responding to someone who is muted on my screen.
My personal opinion on Michael Vick:
Michael Vick is a person. As a general principle, people shouldn’t be treated badly for the sake of animals. The eagerness to hurt a person like Vick shows a perverse value system — or more likely no value system at all, just childish, emotional lashing out.
Any penalty for someone like Vick should place an extremely high relative value on Vick’s human-ness and human rights compared to his “victims”.
Also, hurting a person like Vick any more than the minimum needed to get him to stop hurting dogs is the opposite of Good. We shouldn’t have law enforcement or imprison people to satisfy emotions. (And the emotional people are not satisfied anyway.)
Yeah, probably.
Why or why not?
At this point? Because y'all have so fantastically failed at distinguishing this case from similar cases that you've successfully convinced me that states have broad powers to regulate the provenance of products sold within their borders as long as the point of enforcement is within the borders.
Or to put it another way... while California cannot fine a sweat shop somewhere in Asia, it most certainly can fine the Gap for selling shirts from said sweatshop.
I mean, besides the profit potential of having access to the California market, which is apparently 13% of the US market (according to Bellmore).
Sure, there are probably a lot that won't comply, and their products won't get sold in California. And there will be others that do because that's their market.
In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say probably 13% of pork producers in the United States would end up complying. Maybe a little less, if the increased price in pork drove up the grocery bill enough to depress demand, but probably not too much.
Because it's a way of punishing the activity, duh. It's the activity that's objectionable, not the product.
First off, where is the point of enforcement? Somewhere within California, correct? How exactly is this enforced? The wholesaler or retailer has a letter attesting to the production method meeting the standard.
Really, this is toothless. It is virtue signalling by a crowd of idiots. Treating it seriously is a waste of time.
I think this will have the biggest impact on large food vendors like Costco.
OTOH, it might drive more pork farming in California itself as a way to reduce the distance to market and make up some of the increases in cost.
Which is why lab-grown diamonds are treated and regulated the same as blood diamonds, and why no one is concerned about the provenance of jewels.
The reasons for the disparate treatment/regulation of those two things have nothing to do with any inherent "properties" they possess. When a diamond is dug from the ground it is inherently the exact same object whether the extraction was the result of some morally objectionable process or not.
Sir, this is Reason.com.
If you didn't want to waste your time, you wouldn't be here.
That said, yeah, California would fine people in California that sold illicit pork products. I'm not sure why you think this is something the state wouldn't or couldn't do.
So it doesn't actually impact the pork producers, other than assuming the in-state distributors want to claw back from them the fines that California has levied on them. Good luck with that.
Alternatively, the increased cost in-state can be passed on to consumers. Good, let them bear the cost. This is the govt that they want.
Everyone is happy.
"Really, this is toothless. It is virtue signalling by a crowd of idiots. Treating it seriously is a waste of time."
What do you think of laws that prevent the sale or purchase of dog meat, cat meat, and horse meat?
Laws that prohibit the killing of stray dogs and stray cats?
Laws that outlaw dogfighting and catfighting?
If I can squash a spider, swat a fly, or eat a fish or cow, why can't I shoot a stray dog or eat a horse?
So far as I can determine, you either consider animal cruelty laws to be virtue signaling and improper or you are just mumbling pointlessly.
So my point, which you entirely missed, was that regardless of this philosophical discussion of "properties" that you and Bellmore seem to think matters, provenance does matter and has been regulated for quite some time.
Which is to say... whether provenance is a "property" or not is 100% irrelevant.
Child labor in the US, outside of very specific circumstances, is already illegal. You name one of those circumstances: family-owned farms. Chores are chores. I've seen teens working in a family's restaurant, as well. But "child labor" and helping out with the family business after school aren't the same thing. Equating them is harmful to both.
Sorry, but the only one missing things here is you. It's not I or Bellmore who asserted that provenance as a "property" matters. That was QA, and it was his/her/it's assertion that Bellmore was responding to. And if your point was, as you claim, that the whole question is irrelevant then perhaps you should have tried making that argument instead of offering your lame snark about why people are/aren't concerned about the difference between different diamonds.
That is your moral opinion. You are welcome to it. You're welcome to vote based on it. You're welcome to pass laws related to it.
But California isn't allowed to do the same thing?
So you're just illiterate. Got it. That's probably why I had you muted to begin with. My fault for being curious and unmuting you.
Illinois doesn't limit children doing agricultural work to their family's farms. It allows children over 10 years old to do such work anywhere, so long as it's outside school hours. To quote 820 ILCS 205/1—
"No minor under 12 years of age, except members of the farmer's own family who live with the farmer at his principal place of residence, at any time shall be employed, permitted or allowed to work in any gainful occupation in connection with agriculture, except that any minor of 10 years of age or more may be permitted to work in a gainful occupation in connection with agriculture during school vacations or outside of school hours."
https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2418&ChapterID=68