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Supreme Court Decides to Hear Case Challenging State Law Empowering Government to Seize Entire Value of a House to Pay Much Smaller Property Tax Debt
Minnesota law allowed Hennepin County to seize a $40,000 home owned by a 93-year-old widow to pay off a $15,000 tax debt.
On Friday, the Supreme Court decided to hear a case challenging the constitutionality of a Minnesota state law empowering local governments to seize the entire value of a property in order to pay off a much smaller delinquent property tax debt. The property owner in the case - 94-year-old widow Geraldine Tyler - argues that this kind of uncompensated seizure of home equity violates the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment, which requires government to pay "just compensation" anytime it takes private property, and the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment.
The case has important implications beyond Minnesota. Eleven other states have laws that allow similar "home equity theft." In addition, the case might help resolve the longstanding debate over whether property rights under the Takings Clause are purely a product of state law, and therefore subject to elimination by state legislation.
The Pacific Legal Foundation, the public interest law firm representing Tyler, has a helpful summary of the facts:
As an elderly widow living alone, Geraldine Tyler was doing just fine in the one-bedroom condo she owned in Minneapolis. That is, until 2010, when a rise in neighborhood crime and frightening incidents near her home alarmed Geraldine and her family and prompted her hasty move to a safer area, where she rented an apartment.
Once Geraldine moved, she could no longer afford the property taxes on her condo in addition to the rent on her apartment. The taxes piled up, and Tyler accrued a $2,300 debt. In 2015, when the total tax debt, including penalties, interest, and fees, was $15,000, Hennepin County, Minnesota, seized the condo and sold it one year later for $40,000. Instead of keeping the $15,000 it was owed and refunding Geraldine the sale surplus, the county kept all of the $40,000.
The US Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit ruled for the government, concluding that Tyler had no constitutional property right in her home equity because property rights are ultimately a product of state law, and the Minnesota state legislature had abolished the rights in question by passing a statute eliminating them:
Whether a property interest exists "is determined by reference to existing rules or understandings that stem from an independent source such as state law." Phillips v. Wash. Legal Found., 524 U.S. 156, 164 (1998) (internal quotation omitted). We
therefore look to Minnesota law to determine whether Tyler has a property interest
in surplus equity.Tyler argues that Minnesota recognizes a common-law property interest in
surplus equity in the tax-forfeiture context. She relies on an 1884 decision of the
Minnesota Supreme Court, Farnham v. Jones, 19 N.W. 83 (Minn. 1884), which
addressed an 1881 Minnesota tax-collection statute….We conclude that any common-law right to surplus equity recognized in Farnham has been abrogated by statute. In 1935, the Minnesota legislature augmented its tax forfeiture plan with detailed instructions regarding the distribution of all "net proceeds from the sale and/or rental of any parcel of forfeited land." 1935 Minn. Laws, ch. 386, § 8. The statute allocated the entire surplus to various entities but allowed for no distribution of net proceeds to the former landowner. The necessary implication is that the 1935 statute abrogated any common-law rule that gave a former landowner a right to surplus equity.
The court goes on to conclude that current Minnesota tax foreclosure law is similar to the 1935 statute in stripping property owners' rights to surplus home equity.
A recent Sixth Circuit ruling in a similar home equity theft case effectively highlighted the flaw in this reasoning:
True, the federal "Constitution protects rather than creates property interests," which means that "the existence of a property interest," for purposes of whether one was taken, "is determined by reference to existing rules or understandings that stem from an independent source such as state law." Phillips v. Washington Legal Foundation, 524 U.S. 156, 164 (1998… But the Takings Clause would be a dead letter if a state could simply exclude from its definition of property any interest that the state wished to take. To the contrary, rather, "a State may not sidestep the Takings Clause by disavowing traditional property interests long recognized under state law…"Id. at 167.
The question, then, is whether Michigan likewise disavowed traditional property interests merely by defining them away in its General Property Tax Act. The interest that the plaintiffs invoke here, again, is an entitlement to the equity in their homes—pursuant to principles long articulated by courts of equity, before their merger centuries later with courts of law….
I explained the significance of this issue in a post on the Sixth Circuit case, which also notes key reasons why the reasoning like that of the Eighth Circuit should be rejected:
This ruling is part of a longstanding debate over the extent to which the property rights protected by the Takings Clause are purely defined by state law (in which case the state can often avoid takings liability simply by redefining them), or whether they are also defined by some combination of general legal tradition and natural law. The Sixth Circuit is right to conclude that broader legal principles constrain the states here. But I would add that, at least as a matter of original meaning, states are also constrained by natural law understandings of property rights. I briefly cover this point in this article (pp. 52-53), and also in Chapter 2 of my book The Grasping Hand.
Given the high value the Founders placed on property rights, it would be strange—to say the least—if these constitutional rights were left entirely at the mercy of state governments to redefine as they please, because state law protects them and plays a key role in defining their scope. The same logic would equally justify allowing states to redefine the scope of many other constitutional rights. For example, rights to speech and bodily autonomy could similarly be left to the discretion of the states on the theory that state law historically defined the scope of protection against assault and battery, and the extent to which speech could be restricted by laws against libel, slander, sedition, and blasphemy.
I am guardedly optimistic that the Supreme Court will overturn the Eighth Circuit ruling and adopt something close to the approach embraced by the Sixth Circuit, and a number of other federal and state courts, such as the Michigan Supreme Court in the 2020 San Rafaeli case (decided under the Michigan state Constitution). While many property rights cases tend to split the justices along predictable left-right ideological lines, it is possible this one will not, as liberal justices may see the egregious nature of home equity theft, and the way it tends to victimize the relatively poor and disadvantaged. The facts of the Tyler case drive home this point well.
In addition to the Takings Clause issue, the case also raises the question of whether home equity theft violates the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment. This issue is a tougher one than the Takings Clause question, and I will perhaps return to it at a future time. If, as I tentatively expect, the Supreme Court rules in favor of Tyler under the Takings Clause, it may not even need to address the other issue.
NOTE: In both Tyler and the Sixth Circuit case, the property owners were represented by the Pacific Legal Foundation, which is also my wife's employer. She, however, was not involved in either case.
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"But I would add that, at least as a matter of original meaning, states are also constrained by natural law understandings of property rights."
Yes, but I would delete the part about original meaning, since why do you need an originalist excuse to apply natural-law principles to the positive law, where applicable?
I have no problem with the state selling the property when the delinquent bill is 25% of the total value. Before reading the summary; I thought this was going to be one of the horrific cases where the $125,000 house is sold to satisfy a $400 bill/taxes. So, I’m glad to read the actual amounts. But it just seems overtly evil to take the total amount. It doesn’t even make anything close to logical sense. (Unlike the awful civil seizures, where a $53,000 car can be seized after some real or manufactured crime involved the car to some degree. But here, I at least understand the logic behind to total seizure. “You’re using your boat [etc etc] to ship drugs. We want to punish you, and we’re gonna take the boat–and it’s entire value.” I’m just not getting the legal and moral justification.
[Yes, I get the argument: “We want more money to run this city/state, and we get more money in our coffers if we keep it all.” But is there an actual moral justification that can be made in cases like this?]
I have heard of these cases for some time, and this is the first I have heard of the justification that state law creates and defines property in any way they want, without regard to natural law. I'd really like to watch one of these bureaucrats or judges explain this all with a straight face. At least communists have a simpler justification, and it almost seems honorable by comparison.
Well, it's the same excuse, basically, that they used for not compensating bump stock owners, isn't it? "We rendered them contraband, and people have no property rights in contraband!"
Property rights are about as clear a 9th amendment right as it gets, but the courts are absolutely determined not to give the 9th amendment any application. Probably because during the 20th century violating traditional rights became a large part of the federal government's activities.
I'm sure Biden's ATF plans on doing the same thing with pistol braces.
Well the moral justification is they think they will spend the money better than a 93 year old widow.
She would be better off going north of the border, Canada has higher morals than Hennepin County, they'd offer the widow free assisted suicide in compensation for the taking, in fact they'd offer her a free suicide even if she kept the condo.
The delinquent property owner owes what whey owe and that’s all. That fact is so fundamental. There is no rational or fairness argument to make that the state is entitled to all of the proceeds.
This crap is a combination of two bad concepts that government seems to apply fairly regularly. One is simple greed. The other is “we’re far bigger than you and too big to fight, which if you do you’ll have to do in our court system so we’ll be judging our own behavior. And you’ll have to sustain the fight for many many years”.
Just like our relationship with large companies these days, our relationship with the government operates with the underlying premise that we’re not citizens with rights, we’re teats to be milked until we run dry.
you’ll have to sustain the fight for many many years”.
This is important. The taking was in 2015, when it seems the woman was 85. Eight years later the Supreme Court agrees to take the case. It is fundamentally impossible for her to "win" in any meaningful sense, even if the court rules in her favor. She has lost whatever benefit the $25K would have brought her.
Here's a question.
What kind of asshole does this, and does the lawyer representing the government really have no choice about it?
There are things that some people do as part of their jobs that I just can’t comprehend. Regardless of what the law says, I can’t imagine being the guy who pulls the trigger on screwing an 85 year-old woman out of a few bucks, much less a substantial sum like this.
I guess they just fall back on the bureaucratic “the rules are the rules” thing. I was kind of mavericky in my professional life, so I’m pretty sure that if I were a worker in that tax office I’d have been pitching a fit that what we were doing is immoral and offensive.
But I guess they just take their comfort in their rules and procedures. I couldn’t do it, but there are obviously people that can.
I know a few of the parties involved in a particularly egregious case here in PA from a few years back. It made national news at the time. A woman (her son is a good friend of ours) who was newly widowed had her home seized for $6 in back taxes that came about due to an arithmetic error sometime during her husband's struggle with cancer.
In the end she got to keep the house but I know it pretty much drained the estate to win.
Well, some of us hate the elderly.
Better hope you die before you get old.
That is my plan.
Perhaps the same type of person who, as a police officer, after chasing a suspect, beats the captive unnecessarily.
Or the type of person who, after putting eight bullets in a person who tried to rob a restaurant using a toy gun, walks toward the target and puts a ninth bullet in the head.
People sometimes overreact, particularly when they believe they are in the right and are being mistreated or “put out.” A government pursuing collection of taxes is operating properly and justly — “in the right.” Much as Prof. Somin can call this “home equity theft” or something similar, this property owner had been engaging in “theft of government services” for an extended period of time. The government likely tired of observing and addressing that wrongdoing, figuring it was (1) acting on behalf of taxpayers who fulfill their obligations and (2) working to fund essential government services.
People who overreact generally should be held to account. This government seems entitled to the unpaid taxes, with penalty, interest, and collection costs. I tentatively sense it would be unjust to award the remainder of the purchase price to the government.
A series of mistakes precipitated this problem. The owner should have paid the taxes. The owner should not have let the problem fester for five years. The owner should have sold the property. The owner’s family and friends (if extant and aware) should have helped her avoid this result. The government should have (may have, for all I know) attempted to persuade the owner to address the problem in a better manner. Legislators might have arranged a better statute.
This seems a sad story, but not so much a comic book-level morality play, except to straining partisans.
Or the type of person who, after putting eight bullets in a person who tried to rob a restaurant using a toy gun, walks toward the target and puts a ninth bullet in the head.
"Toy Gun", c'mon (Man!) you're Jerry Sandusky, you know BB Guns,
(Deceased) Perp was packing an Air Pistol, not because he couldn't pass a background check, because he was such a shitty criminal he was robbing a Downscale Taqueria at midnight,
but as Ralphie heard till he could throw up,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvrDKlV2Kw0
are you really the real Rev.olting Rev.Arthur.T. Sandusky-Kirtland? you're posting much more frequently, and much less effectively, although your most 'Effective" post is about as "Effective" as Pete Booty-Judges actual accomplishments
Look, that's obviously unjustifiable (it's right there in the word "unnecessarily"), but it's at least comprehensible: the cop thinks the guy is a bad guy and 'deserves' it. Indeed, if the cop didn't think he'd get in trouble, he'd probably look the guy in the eye and publicly announce it in precisely those terms: the guy deserved it.
But this? This is seizing the property of an elderly person who nobody would be willing to say that about. The unpaid taxes? Interest? Penalties? Sure, sure, and sure. But the rest of the money? It takes a whole lot more of a commitment to being a jackass to do this.
Is a physical beating a lesser injury than the loss of money (which could be reimbursed)?
Is a suspect less deserving of sympathy or respect than a five-year deadbeat?
If the money is reimbursed, then there is no loss and so this issue doesn't arise and your question is a strawman.
"Or the type of patriotic citizen minding his own business who, after putting eight bullets in a 85 IQ black thug who tried to rob a restaurant using a toy gun, walks toward the target and puts a ninth bullet in his brainless head."
Fixed that for you
How lightly one can scratch the Volokh Conspiracy to find the bigotry -- racism, gay-bashing, misogyny, Islamophobia, antisemitism, hatred of immigrants -- that animates this conservative, faux libertarian blog.
How regularly -- even predictably -- that point emerges at this blog.
One might be tempted to observe that strong, mainstream, liberal-libertarian institutions such as UCLA and Northwestern do not deserve to have their franchises misappropriated by and stained by prominent association with this bigotry-hugging blog, but hiring decisions have consequences, a point of which deans and hiring committees at legitimate law schools should be ever mindful.
Carry on, clingers. So far and so long as your stale, ugly conservative thinking could carry anyone in modern, improving-against-your-wishes America. And even then, just until replacement.
Which is exactly why government agents should be required to pay damages personally, treble damages, and with indemnification by the state prohibited.
“That is, until 2010, when a rise in neighborhood crime and frightening incidents near her home alarmed Geraldine and her family and prompted her hasty move to a safer area, where she rented an apartment. ”
Rent or own is a classic conundrum and there’s good arguments on both sides. But this is an oft-overlooked argument in favor of rent. It’s fundamentally unpredictable which areas will be infested by criminals in the future and their presence destroys the value of a home with no plausible remedy and no real way to insure against that contingency. Owners are stuck taking the loss one way or the other, renters can simply flee at the end of their lease term if not sooner. So if you’re a prospective homeowner you have to ask yourself: Is it possible the neighborhood you’re thinking of owning a small part of will be overrun by predators in the future? How sure are you? I hope Geraldine wins legally but the real remedy is the political will to end America's current flirtation with soft on crime policies.
People at the lady age could have moved for a number of reasons. The comments on crime are really off topic.
Crap city seeing its population criminalize, joins the party!
There is ways to insulate yourself against the worst of that. Rural areas, for example, rarely fall victim to those kind of problems. Buy further out, deal with the longer commute. Your bank account and peace of mind will thank you.
and the lack of adequate medical resources, the downscale schools, the nonexistent amenities, the uneducated neighbors, the declining towns, the shambling economy, the bright flight (especially tough, I imagine, if your child turns out to be one of the smart, ambitious young people who flee and never return), the bigoted neighbors, the limited utilities . . .
You do realize there are more than a just a few major cities. If neighbors are a problem you are living too close.
There are plenty of places relatively close to infrastructure where people aren't packed in like sardines. I am within 15 minutes of several world class medical facilities and still don't live in urban or suburban hell. Neighbors all are friendly enough, I don't care much beyond that. I'm just not the type to pry into their personal life or beliefs. I know the couple next door are great dog trainers who specialize in desensitizing aggressive breeds. The guy across the street is a gifted artist who decorates high end homes, and his wife is a fantastic chef.
With WFH being what it is today there are plenty of careers where you can be pretty much anywhere in the world and still do your job. I know for my wife and I we have never had a single client less than 500 miles away and there is still the benefit of not much traffic and being able to see the stars at night. That's important.
I just don't think it's good for mental health to live too close to one another.
Fifteen minutes from world class medical facilities, yet beyond suburbia?
Are you expecting to travel by jet? A jet parked in your driveway, prepared for takeoff? And expecting to land in the parking area at the hospital’s emergency entrance?
How many states have more than a few major cities? Pennsylvania has two. Illinois one. Ohio three. New York probably two. Most states have one or none.
People are entitled to choose to reside in rural areas. But they should not claim or pretend to be proximate to first-rate medical resources, strong schools, desirable economies, and modern amenities.
Haven't been out of "Stir" much recently Jerry?
Lets See, California, has how many Major League Teams? San Fran-sissy-co, Oakland, Sacramento, LA/Anaheim/San Diego,
Thanks for allowing us "Klingers" to "reside in rural areas", I guess it's always crowded at, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Understand the temperature's always 72F,
Frank
I can be in downtown Pittsburgh in 30-40 minutes. I can be at either a UPMC or an AGH level 3 trauma center in about 15-20.
People ride horses and drive tractors up and down this road.
You are not 15 minutes from the city (Oakland, Lawrenceville, Shadyside, etc.). Not nearly. Maybe 45 minutes. Those city locations are where the world class medical facilities are.
You might be able to reach the fringe of civilization — a satellite facility in Cranberry, perhaps — in 20 minutes. Maybe not. From Cranberry, at least someone could call colleagues in the city for help.
How many substandard, country-style medical facilities would you pass along the way to a legitimate institution?
I said Level 3 Trauma Center. UPMC Cranberry is one. I know, I was there for a perforated colon. AGH just built a brand now one in Wexford, probably better than downtown. I was taken to that on in February when I fell off of a 14 foot ladder and dislocated my elbow. Downtown takes about 30 minutes via I-279,
I would know other facilities. I specifically chose our local system because the thoracic surgeon there is one of the best regarded in the tri-state region and due to people I know was able to jump to the front of the line.
I live in a pretty urban environment - a city of 100,000 abutting a larger one.
Low crime - about one murder per 100,000 each year - pleasant neighbors, lots of amenities. Most routine errands can be run on foot.
Yes, the population is fairly dense, but that's what buys you the amenities and the walkability.
To each his own.
Another discussion of the inexplicably lenient sentences being imposed on insurrectionists?
Another post by the disgraced Rev.olting Rev.Arthur.Sandusky?? Don't any of the other prisoners get a chance??
Once again: the notion that America is "soft on crime" in any way, shape, or form is entirely in your head. America is by far the harshest in the free world on crime.
Given the extreme heterogeneity of both "America" and "crime," blanket statements like this are meaningless.
Which, conveniently, was exactly OP's point re the need for mobility as different areas become subject to the latest avant-garde soft-on-crime tripe (the Portland area being a highly visible and I would hope -- even for you -- non-controversial recent example).
Of course the ruling is absurd:
"We conclude that any common-law right to surplus equity recognized in Farnhamhas been abrogated by statute."
So why stop at surplus equity being forfeited because of a tax debt?
The State could require any surplus equity be forfeited to the state when you sell the house, die, put the house up for rent, or maybe just pass a law saying when you finish paying off the bank start sending your monthly checks to the county because the surplus equity belongs to the state. You didn't build that.
I'm not seeing the absurdity. Common law, natural law, divine right of kings, "We hold these truths to be self evident blah blah blah", it's all the same specious "reasoning": "I like this and want it to be so, mystical mumbo jumbo makes it so."
Not really, I don't think there is much mystery about the original public meaning of the 5th amendment:
"nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
The original public meaning of the 5th amendment didn't allow the legislature to define the meaning of private property out of existence.
Tradition and History isn't just a 2nd Amendment thing.
As a deep skeptic of enforceable unenumerated rates, I congratulate the Minnesota legislature, Hennepin County, and the Eighth Circuit for making a very strong counterargument.
Your statement unenumerated rights conflict with the langauge in 5A
The Takings Clause in the Fifth Amendment provides “nor shall private property be taken without just compensation.” That provision would literally mean nothing if the state can define “property” to mean whatever it wants
You disagree with the Court's substantive due process precedents?
The Takings Clause in the Fifth Amendment provides “nor shall private property be taken without just compensation.” That provision would literally mean nothing if the state can define “property” to mean whatever it wants. Though the Circuit Courts may be constrained by one of the many terrible decisions of the Warren Court.
United States v. Taylor, 104 U.S. 216 (1881), like the instant cases, concerned the government foreclosing on a property for delinquent taxes, selling it at auction, and retaining the surplus funds. The former owner sued for the surplus funds. The Supreme Court, affirming the Claims Court, ruled in favor of the former owner, but did so on purely statutory grounds, not addressing any constitutional issues.
Three years later, United States v. Lawton, 110 U.S. 146 (1884). raised essentially the same issue, the only difference being the United States itself had purchased of the property at the delinquency sale. The Court held that made no legal difference and that the case was “governed by our rulings in United States v. Taylor“, ruling again that the former owner was entitled to the surplus. It added:
Id. at 150.
That seems a definitive, unambiguous statement, but the Warren Court did not seem to think so. Nelson v. City of New York, 352 U.S. 103 (1956), again, involved the foreclosure and sale of a property for delinquent taxes, with the government keeping all the proceeds. (Actually, even worse in this case, the government foreclosed TWO properties from the same owner for delinquent taxes. It sold one, and naturally, the proceeds from the sale far exceeded the delinquent tax bill for both properties. Of course, the government sold the second property as well, again keeping all the proceeds).
A unanimous Court, per Chief Justice Warren, sided with the government. It did not overrule Lawton, but purported to “distinguish” it, quite unpersuasively in my opinion. First, the Court noted that Lawton relied on Taylor which was decided on statutory, not constitutional, grounds. I can only interpret that as implying that the constitutional statements in Lawton were dicta, but why Warren would not just explicitly say “that was dicta” is unclear to me. Secondly, the Court noted that the statute in this case made it easier for the owner to redeem his property than the statute in Lawton, but again, I fail to see why this detail should have any constitutional significance. I don’t think whether something amounts to a constitutional Taking or not should turn on how many delinquency notices the government sends you.
I agree with Prof. Somin and am fairly confident that the current Supreme Court will reverse the Eighth Circuit. I think the six conservative justices will rule for Tyler on property rights principles, and the three liberal justices might too, if not on property rights principles, then at least on not wanting to take the side of the government stealing $30,000 from a 93-year-old widow.
Yeah, that Nelson opinion is odd reading. I agree that the statement in Lawton was dicta but being dicta just means it is non binding, not that it is wrong. Warren should have analyzed the claim but instead took Lawton's dicta status as justification to ignore the 5A, which makes no sense to me.
If I could hazard a guess (which might be totally off base), this was not especially long after West Cost Hotel and the judicial revolution of 1937. There was something of a visceral reaction (if not overreaction) by the new Warren Court to cast off all those nasty ole vestiges of Lochner, the "Businessman's Court", and "economic rights" and to get back to the "proper" role of deferring to legislatures in those areas.
I hesitate to add, at risk of being cynical about "blind justice", the plaintiff in the case was some rich businessman with several properties who blamed his bookkeeper for the oversight, and not a little old lady who lost her house, who might have earned, if not a different result, at least a little more sympathy and circumspection,
First, I agree that the seizure of the entire value for debt of lesser value is wrong. Anyone collecting the debt is entitled to the debt and money associated with collecting the debt, no more.
I would also like to know why this issue arose in the first place. It seems to me that a 93-year-old woman should have had someone assisting in her finances, a family member or friend. The sale should have been made and all bills associated with the property settled. This should be a lesson to everyone not to let these matter lay dormant, no matter whether the collector is government or a private entity, you are liable to lose.
Shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt.
SCOTUS is gonna have fun with this one.
The 8th circuit ruling has got to be one of the worst on record. I'm betting on a 9-0 ruling overturning.
Kelo already won that award, though this is close second.
Fortunately, none of the anti-5A justices in Kelo are still on the court.
Kelo - Stevens, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined. Kennedy, J., filed a concurring opinion. O’Connor, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Scalia and Thomas, JJ., joined. Thomas, J., filed a dissenting opinion.
I've been to lots of mortgage foreclosure sales over the years, and what strikes me about this case is that there was actually a surplus. What typically happens is that the bank is the only entity bidding at the auction and they buy it for nominal value, usually $100. So, suppose I own a house that's worth $250,000, in which I have $50,000 in equity. I fall behind on my mortgage to the bank forecloses. At the auction, no one else bids, the bank buys it for $100, and walks away with my $50,000 in equity. And, this practice has been upheld by the Florida courts.
This has never seemed right to me. I suppose the law could require the bank to have the house appraised and then require the opening bid be sufficient to compensate the former homeowner for the lost equity, although i don't see such a plan getting through our Republican legislature.
I've heard similar things, and have always been a little mystified: if the FMV of the house is $250k, why isn't someone bidding $249k?
I get that markets aren't always perfectly efficient, but letting something that's worth $250k sell for $100 seems wildly inefficient.
I've gone to a lot of machine shop auctions, and scored bargains, but not on that scale.
$250K value is speculative; people who are foreclosed on often spend the last days before foreclosure trashing the place. In any case, houses may have a lot of hidden issues: if you buy it directly from the previous owner, you could sue them when the major issue they clearly should have known about but did not reveal is discovered, but nobody to sue if you bought it in foreclosure, and less opportunity to have it appraised.
When I was a landlord, I was obligated to store belongings left behind, and if sold after a reasonable notice of the storage charge, I could only keep the storage charge and cost of selling it, and had to return any surplus. I don't know if Hennepin County has the same requirement on landlords, but it seems a reasonable requirement for private and public actors alike.
I think that the woman and her family were badly mistaken in not selling a property that they could not afford to pay property taxes on. But I can also see that the county doesn't want people to skip out on property taxes in order to hold a property without cost, betting that the eventual surplus will be higher than the sale price when they first can't afford to pay the taxes; however, they could deal with that with higher fines to make that bet less attractive.
The discount on the purchase of homes in a foreclosure type sale (sales at the courthouse door), etc are often due to the additional costs the buyer typically will likely incur. In mosts cases, there will a lot of unknown costs that will depress the price – deferred maintenance, etc.
Noticed that magister pointed out many of the reasons for the discounted price in his post above
Sure, I was assuming that the $250 was FMV given the condition, etc. But $100 is generally going to be less than the value of the lot. It would seem really unlikely you couldn't make money buying almost any house for $100. There are going to be a few exceptions - Detroit during the downslide, perhaps, but still...
That's a good idea!
Sure, there are good reasons for the house to sell at a discount.
But there are bad reasons also. How widely is the sale publicized, and what information is available to potential bidders? When is the auction held?
There are certainly those who have an interest in minimizing the number of bidders.
What if the seller - the bank, say, or the government in other circumstances had to make an effort to publicize the auction and made available an inspection report - the kind of thing you get doen when buying a house? Is that done anywhere?
Your $50,000 in equity in that example is purely hypothetical. The house is only worth $250,000 if someone is willing to pay that much. An appraisal is a guess at the value — an educated guess, but just a guess — not an actual tangible thing.
No, that doesn't make any sense at all. You owe $200k to the bank, secured by your house. The bank's only recourse is to foreclose and sell your house. If there were a law that the sale couldn't go through unless there was a bid over $250k, then the bank could be legally stuck with the property and losing even more money on it — having to pay for upkeep, property taxes, etc., while you got to walk away scot free. What banks would lend under those conditions?
Have you seen stuff like this recently? There's enough critical mass now in the fix-and-flip community that I'd be a bit surprised if nobody at all showed up if there was a deal to be had (e.g., if the house was somewhere northward of a teardown and there weren't a bunch of IRS or other high-dollar liens clouding up the title).
Some local laws actually do require appraisals and peg the minimum opening bid to a healthy percentage of that appraisal. That said, appraisals and thus equity are fairly subjective -- if the house is actually worth in the neighborhood of the appraisal, an owner should be able to sell it outright to pay off the foreclosure debt and keep the rest. In my experience the ones that actually make it to the auction block have either structural or legal problems that effectively reduce both the potential pool of buyers and what they're willing to pay.
"We conclude that any common-law right to surplus equity recognized in Farnhamhas been abrogated by statute."
I'm sorry, did the government compensate every single property owner for THAT taking? Even accepting this idea that states get to define property however they want and then take anything they want that apparently is no longer "property"... at some point there was a taking of property.
Agreed that the redefinition of a property’s value could constitute a 5A taking. But did anyone sue at the time of the redefinition… which from quick reskim of the post might have happened in 1935?
In other words, if you believe the State’s fiction, the 93 year old probably never possessed the larger valuation, and nothing was defined downwards for her; she bought the property subject to the lower (if unfair) value. And thus she can not point to a taking from her. And thus can’t sue on that basis.
Not saying that’s a just result, but it’s a pretty solid argument the state could make.
I read about Nebraska's regime for this sort of thing and that seems like a much tougher challenge, there the state (as I understand it) basically sells the property to the first to file after notice of tax delinquency, and for the amount owed. So under that system there are no extra funds.
Sounds like a system ripe for insider dealing.
With the caveat that my source for this was a conversation with whoever answered the phone in a county clerk's office, Montana had a similar system. There were companies that made a business of it - they would watch the property tax rolls for taxes in arrears and pay them. Then they waited 3 years. If the legit owner never paid, they got ownership for the taxes paid. If the legit owned came in and paid the taxes before 3 years, the vulture company got what they had paid refunded, so it was impossible to lose other than the opportunity cost of the taxes.
She said this was changed 5 years or so ago; now it is auction to highest bidder, pay outstanding taxes, balance to legit owner.
Again, word of mouth from whoever answered the phone, filtered through my imperfect memory.
"The Takings Clause in the Fifth Amendment provides 'nor shall private property be taken without just compensation.' That provision would literally mean nothing if the state can define 'property' to mean whatever it wants."
This comment reflects on a very common, and deep, issue with law in general (and even more broadly language). For example, the same argument can be made with reference to 2nd Amendment rights. As the law stands, the right to bear arms can be (and is) stripped if you are convicted of a 'felony' under state laws. Could a state simply define 'felony' so broadly that it effectively stripped almost everyone of their right to bear arms? A state can make speeding a 'felony.' Barrett specifically (if rhetorically) asked this question in one of the gun cases she heard while on the appellate court.
"Redefining" your way out of a problem, or to get a solution you like, is as old as language. Some Greek philosophers would deride such a thing as "mere rhetoric," while others would argue that "rhetoric" is not "mere." It is done all the time, in a lot of contexts. One random example: The constitution says that only congress may declare "war." Our nation (and its courts) has defined, and redefined, "war" over and over in order to permit meeting whatever exigency seemed to demand at the time the redefinition was made. It's not a 'war', it's a 'police action,' we're not at 'war,' but we are in a 'state of war,' etc. etc. As I said, just one random example, but illustrative of the principle: Meanings change, often very intentionally, to serve the needs of the definer.
Much of law is arguing about language, in particular definitions, and about when (and who) gets to change those definitions, and under what circumstances. Redefining something in order to include or exclude it from some other provision/statute/etc. is part and parcel of how governance works, and the courts have wrestled with it, and its effects, since they have existed. As to how to 'stop' this practice, the simple answer appears to be "you can't", at least not generally.
No, the Fifth says "taken for public use", not just "taken".
The difference is significant, because the state can acquire your property by means other than eminent domain (taking for public use) without compensation. Ref Bennis v. Michigan, 516 US 442 (1996)
Do any states not authorize seizure and forfeiture of contraband (unlawful substances, vehicles used with respect to liquor law or tax violations, criminal tools, etc.)?
I agree with the 6th Circuit here. But I would construe property owners’ traditional rights considerably more narrowly than Professor Somin, to just very established rights recognized at common law and equity for centuries, and construed narrowly.
It is not the business of a conservative Supreme Court to, for example, overturn civil rights laws (or require states to pay compensation) just because property owners have historically been able to exclude whomever they want and the traditional concept of “common carrrier” was narrower than today. Similarly, courts should not interfere with legislative attempts to clarify who owns the data uploaded to networks or posted on social media platforms by drawing analogies to traditional common law primciples that may or may not work in the new era of global internets and data. It is the right of legislatures representing the people to decide how to regulate and allocate rights for new technologies and social concepts that profoundly affect the public in a manner they think conducive to the public good. And our federal system permits different jurisdictions to experiment with different regulatory schemes and ways of allocating rights.
The takings clause should not be construed to be a back door to general judicial interference with economic and social legislation.
It’s up to somebody to enforce the constitution, which explicitly says that just compensation must be paid. If legislators and executives who swore an oath to uphold the constitution won’t enforce it, then it’s up to the SC to do so,
Legislators can’t take away enumerated rights. If that’s what you’re saying here you’re just wrong.
Fine. I demand compensation. You conceded the constitution says just compensation must be paid. So give it too me.
I’m not the government and I didn’t take your property.
But of course courts get to decide that.
I don't get why it's not invalid under Excessive Fines as an easy question.
Here the State assessed interest AND a penalty (a fine) within the $15,000 owed. Yet they kept $25,000.00 more. Even a cent more is Excessive Fine by the states own definition!
I think the simplest way to resolve this is to note that it isn't true. If I try to take someone's home equity from them without their consent, I guarantee that I will be charged with embezzlement or fraud or theft or the like (whatever best fits the facts) because people do have a property interest in their home equity. It's one thing — I don't think it's right or justifiable, but it's one thing — to say that people don't have a property interest in their home equity. It's another to say that they do — unless the government wants to take it.
I think that’s another way of resolving the issue without making a sweeping ring. When states regards something as property whenever anybody but the government wants to take it, then it’s also property when the government wants to take it. That’s also a neutral way of resolving the issue without courts invoking “natural law” or whatnot to defeat social legislation they don’t like.
Natural law is part of our system. Our theory of government is that rights arise before government. They aren't granted to us by government.
Your claim that natural rights do not exist is ahistorical and objectively wrong. Just look at the Declaration of Independence. Under that theory, under OUR theory, governments are established to protect rights. They do not create them.
There are certainly people who believe that natural-law principles like “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” are the core basis of human society and were long in existence prior to the constitution. Nonetheless our Constitution chose not to incorporate these principles. Instead, it provided for a limited federal government and a set of personal rights, and reserved other powers and rights to the states and people. In doing so, it made various compromises that selected from multiple theories about human nature and the art of government. But it left the door open to new theories, as long as certain core rights were respected and change was implemented in a manner consistent with representative democracy.
Under our constitutional system, the very existence of rights depends on presence within and association with this country, which of course came into being with the Constitution, and hence are very much creatures of the constitution itself. Our courts have repeatedly rejected the idea that the cosntitution ever implemented the idea that all human beings have rights. It wasn’t just Dred Scott that found this. The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that neither fetuses nor foreigners outside US territory have any constitutional rights. Dobbs did not change this with respect to fetuses. It held states could prohibit abortion if they chose to. But they don’t have to. They don’t have any obligation to give fetuses any protection of the law, let alone equal protection. Similarly, the Trump-era immigration cases and other recent Supreme Court cases reiterated long-standing precedent that foreigners outside US territory have no constitutional rights, including no right to any fair process or equal treatment in decisions about whether to admit them into the country.
This can only mean constituional rights stem from the constitution, and hence cannot precede it. The Supreme Court has repeatedly said that the constitutioonal concept of “person,” which identifies and limits who has rights, is based on construction of constitutional text, not on any concept of “natural law.” And that term, as the Supreme Court says the constitution means, excludes the vast majority of the world’s human population.
I’ve quoted Karl Marx, who considered his theories based on science (that is, nature), as evidence of just how varied different people’s concepts of “natural law” can be.
One could just as easily and justifiably interpret “natural law” to refer to the theories of current social science professors as early modern and 18th century philosophers. One could equally interpret it to refer to the theories of Karl Marx, the example I began with. Each of these thinkers, and many more, claim(ed) their theories reflect universal natural laws about human nature and political conduct.
The Constitution simply didn’t privelege your prefereed philosophers over other thinkers, your idea of “natural law” over Karl Marx’s or John Rawls’ or anybody else’s. Instead, you have to market your opinions in the marketplace of ideas by attempting to persuade others of their value as best you can.
That is, the Constitution simply didn’t implement this aspect of the Declaration of Independence. And that fact has been pointed out multiple times in multiple cases.
First of all, it is just sad and shameful that the state would act like this. Taking ALL the equity from this poor woman.
But I have to side with the natural rights view. Under the theory of government articulated by the Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted to protect rights. It follows that state governments cannot abolish such rights on a whim.
Also, this case is an example of why the government often can't really be trusted. I used to be more trusting of the government... I don't feel as much that way anymore. I still believe that we should use the government to solve more problems than conservatives do. But, we also have to recall that people who work in government can be very stupid and selfish, as this case illustrates.
THIS is part of the reason we can't have nice things.
But that’s the problem with how things have evolved. As governments have become larger and in many cases have reached - or slightly passed - the limit at which people are content to be taxed they’ve still got their things they want to do, so they’ve come up with more ways to milk money from us that are sort of hidden.
Take a look at the breakdown on your phone or cable bill. Note how governments all over want to build new stadiums for their sports teams (owned by billionaires with rosters full of decamillionaires) but the locals would revolt if taxed to pay for them so they add taxes on hotels and rental cars and make people who will never use the stadiums pay. Making prisoners pay knee breaking rates to call their families. And crap like this.
To governments now er are no longer citizens with rights to be protected - with ongoing Wars of Crime and Terror and Drugs we’re all potential combatants - we are merely teats to be milked.
I guess you don't remember the property tax moratorium that local governments passed so home owners would be on an equal footing with renters.
Oh, wait that never happened.
Never mind!
Landlords that don't pass on property tax increases to renters in the form of higher rents don't stay landlords for long.
No one would ever allow a bank or other mortgage holder to foreclose on a house and keep the equity. If a private party can't do something, the government shouldn't be allowed to either.
No more of this "Fuck you, government wins" bullshit
More of the legal insight one expects to encounter at the Volokh Conspiracy.
Carry on, clingers.
Muted, fuckface.
What does the 5th amendment say about Federal takings of property? If the MN state court view stands, what is to stop the Federal government from taking (without compensation and without a public use) whatever "property" they please?
As similar issue which did not get much attention arose in Kelo. The SCOTUS majority in that case left the door wide open for the Federal government to seize private property under their watered down "public purpose" interpretation.
1) I don't know on what planet you don't think Kelo got much attention.
2) Kelo presented an entirely different, not similar, issue. There was no dispute that Kelo was a taking and that the government owed compensation. The only issue was whether it was for a public use.
What happens when there is a conflict between laws?
And that's just a fancy way for kleptocrats to say, "I want as few impediments as possible to funneling other peoples' money into my pocket."
Democracy isn't what makes this nation great. Freedom is. Politicians usually mention democracy in speeches; freedom much less frequently. Democracy means the will to control you. Freedom is exemption from their control.
Because we’re a nation of men not angels. Natural law is just a fancy way of saying “things I think are right that God or the Cosmos agrees with me on.” Unfortunately, different people with different Gods (or even the same ones) read His mind to say different things.
This. For something to be law, it must constrain. The plain meaning of a text can constrain. A precedent can certainly constrain.
But natural law never can. Because it's all about truths that are supposedly so self evident from nature that anyone can discern them. BY DEFINITION that will be whatever the "natural law theorist" actually believes. Nobody ever says "I think the government should do X, but it is against the laws of nature that all human beings can discern".
Since natural law cannot constrain, it doesn't exist. It isn't law. It's just people's personal preferences, mislabeled as "law" and imposed on all the dissenters who don't discern these principles in nature.
Politicians so rarely talk about liberty in this country!
Being pro-liberty and anti-democracy is some profound ignorance of how political institutions work.
@krayt I value freedom. The problem is that freedom often bumps up against another persons freedoms. There always ends up being some sort of balancing of interests, and I would rather democracy figure that out than autocracy. Of course we have something only vaguely resembling democracy in this country. And I doubt a nation of 350 million ever could. Life is just so complex.
Well, share with us your superior wisdom by which you outsmarted the authors of the Federalist Papers.
He didn’t say he was anti-democracy. He simply said that liberty is more important than democracy or really anything else.
Are you doing some democracy is not a republic nonsense?
Natural law is as protean as classical legal theory. Both are a chance to instantiate your own worldview as some objective truth. Except a personal objective truth is just an opinion with bonusunearned righteousness.
You do realize the Federalist Papers were propaganda, right?
Now do "democracy."
Those were remarks by Madison dated 1821 in favor of universal suffrage (or white suffrage, in the Virginia context he was addressing).
https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s26.html
He says, "The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions," but I couldn't find the words "democracy" or "democratic" in the remarks.
No wonder, given what he wrote in Federalist 10:
"From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
https://thefederalistpapers.org/federalist-papers/federalist-paper-10-the-utility-of-the-union-as-a-safeguard-against-domestic-faction-and-insurrection-continued
Obfuscation and dissembling is the Queen's specialty.
Ah, Federalist #10, the one with the predictions that are most easily shown to be wrong. I mean, how's that plan for controlling against "faction" working out? It isn't. That's how.
A point you didn't make in your original comment. I wonder how much he would have "evolved" if he were alive today?
As usual with reformers, they did a better job of diagnosing the problem than with showing that their solution would solve the problem.
This is true across the board, so that the social critic deserves to be at least respectfully listened to when going over the problems of the status quo, without necessarily accepting his claims that his idea will make the problem less bad.
George Orwell did a great diagnosis of totalitarianism, but that doesn’t mean he proved that his ideas of democratic socialism were better than mixed economies, conservatism, etc. when it came to avoiding these dangers and making needed reforms.
“[Democracy] is as protean as [monarchy]. Both are a chance to instantiate your own worldview as some objective truth. Except a personal objective truth is just an opinion with bonusunearned righteousness.”
"It promises stability or objectivity but gives neither."
But enough about majority rule.
See below.
Democracy means the will to control you.
Dunno how to take this other than negatively.
Since you just refuted the Declaration of Independence, we'd better change our national anthem back to "God Save the King."
Which promises stability and objectivity but gives neither.
"But democracy does at least has the claim to legitimacy that comes with majority rule."
So are things like chattel slavery and genocide legitimate as long as the enslaved or murdered population is legitimately outvoted by the majority?
I mean, they both seem wrong to me no matter what the majority thinks, but I guess I'm just trying to read the mind of angels.
So a system that permits a majority to enslave people or commit genocide is more "right" than a system that doesn't?
And when you say that Democracy is the most right way for governments to decide what to do, is that just your personal opinion, or are you reading the minds of angels?
Once you denigrate and downgrade the Declaration of Independence, and its claim that men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," then anything goes. You're choosing between genocide by a large mob and genocide by a minority of the mob.
" Every system can “permit” awful things,"
Again, awful in your personal opinion, or awful in some larger sense?
And is a Democracy like our that expressly forbids the majority from enslaving people or committing genocide less legitimate than one that permits those things, since as you put it, the latter has the claim to legitimacy that comes with majority rule?
What would be the pros and cons if it were the law?
Right of succession from the Union might have been justified.
Not after we renew our allegiance to good old Charles III, it won't be.
I missed that part. Beats me. I agree that liberty is the important part but I’m not sure how you get it without democracy.
Well since you've already called me a moron maybe you'd explain how my comment is "defection"?
I responded to your comment with honest questions.
There would be no US Constitution or US Code without the independence declared in 1776.
Whoops what? It's not the Constitution or law so it is just some words by a degenerate slave holder and rapist. Right?
Make me absolute ruler.
Like you said,
"Another way of putting this is: A system that permits a majority to enslave people or commit genocide is more “right” than a system that permits a minority to enslave people or commit genocide."
Contrast it with men being endowed by their creator with inalienable rights.
I know which one *I* choose.
I admire the candor with which you ditch the Declaration and then compare the respective merits of two genocidal regimes.