The Volokh Conspiracy
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Taboos in Universities, Against Displaying Certain Images and Quoting Certain Words
"Dr. Kostihova compared showing the image [of Muhammed] to using a racial epithet for Black people ...."
The New York Times (Vimal Patel) wrote yesterday about the Hamline University lecturer who was fired for displaying a painting of Muhammed in class. The article identifies the lecturer by name, Erika López Prater, which to my knowledge hadn't been publicly done until a few days ago. And it adds some other noteworthy items:
The instructor's actions, [Jaylani Hussein, the executive director of the Minnesota chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations,] said, hurt Muslim students and students of color and had "absolutely no benefit."
"If this institution wants to value those students," he added, "it cannot have incidents like this happen. If somebody wants to teach some controversial stuff about Islam, go teach it at the local library." …
Four days after the class, Dr. López Prater was summoned to a video meeting with the dean of the college of liberal arts, Marcela Kostihova.
Dr. Kostihova compared showing the image to using a racial epithet for Black people, according to Dr. López Prater.
This vividly illustrates, I think, some of the points that Randy Kennedy and I wrote about in The New Taboo: Quoting Epithets in the Classroom and Beyond with regard to similar demands for expurgating items (there, quoted epithets) from class discussions of source materials, such as court opinions, court records, historical documents, musical works, and so on. And it reinforces our view (see especially pp. 56-57 of that article) that, if universities adopt a norm that professors should expurgate epithets from the sources they're discussing, it will be hard to credibly and consistently reject other demands for expurgation, including of supposedly blasphemous images.
Randy and I take the view that neither quoted epithets nor blasphemous images should be taboo. Hamline takes the view that both should be taboo. But if one is taboo, it seems to me hard to justify treating the other differently, and to credibly respond to reactions such as Mr. Hussein's:
- Both kinds of demands for restriction claim that certain materials are highly offensive, and perhaps even produce "trauma" or "impact" students' "grades."
- Both assert that the materials are disrespectful to members of minority groups, precisely because showing or saying such materials runs contrary to norms that the group and its supporters feel strongly about, and present as demands.
- Both argue that restriction is necessary to maintain good relations with the students: "If this institution wants to value those students, it cannot have incidents like this happen."
- The minority groups in both situations are at risk of physical violence (though of course not in the classroom) from people who dislike those groups, and the perceived disrespect may remind them of their vulnerability.
- Both kinds of demands argue that the material must be removed even in contexts where the teacher isn't trying to use the material as an insult. To quote one of the Hamline students, "Hamline teaches us it doesn't matter the intent, the impact is what matters" (and presumably the evident absence of any intent to derogate Muslims is irrelevant to the impact).
- Both could in principle be satisfied by expurgating material—using euphemisms, blacking out portions of images, and the like—rather than completely omitting it (though in both situations, some people may not be satisfied even by that).
- The supporters of both kinds of demands therefore say that their demands are very modest: just a minor level of expurgation of certain material.
Once one accepts one such taboo, the other becomes much harder to resist. Better, I think, to instead reaffirm a basic principle (which I think is supported by many people's negative reaction to Hamline University's firing of the instructor): American universities should be places where teachers and students studying a subject can discuss the subject's source material—even material that may offend some people for whatever reason—as it actually is, without expurgation.
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"American universities should be places where teachers and students studying a subject can discuss the subject's source material—even material that may offend some people for whatever reason—as it actually is, without expurgation."
This should go without saying, yet here we are.
I would exclude universities that disclose, upfront, with clear rules what they are about. BYU forbids premarital sex. Etc.
Of course you would. You're an unprincipled, disaffected, right-wing culture war casualty, much like the average contributor to this white, male, faux libertarian blog.
We live in a pluralistic society. BYU/Yeshiva University, to name a couple, ain't my bag. But that's cool---different strokes for different folks.
Some schools disclose they will flatter superstition, nonsense, bigotry, dogma, and ignorance.
Others indicate they will promote diversity, civility, modernity, and inclusiveness.
Conservatives -- and this blog -- whine about one group while ignoring the other.
Carry on, clingers.
Hamline said that it believed in academic freedom. It lied. Why don't you start by getting that right.
Are you engaging in "whataboutism"?
Of course, Kirkland supports censorship. Therefore I censor him via the "mute" button.
I dislike Hamline's described conduct.
I dislike the censorship regularly imposed by conservative-controlled schools.
I dislike the viewpoint-driven censorship the Volokh Conspiracy has repeatedly imposed.
Other than that, though . . . great comment, Don Nico!
Have you considered making comments that aren't trolling namecalling and projecting "right wing" onto everyone who isn't on your side?
"Hey, yeshivas and BYU aren't my thing but we're pluralists so okay" does not, to any other person, mean "I am a right wing culture-war victim who loves religion and lies!"
But ... well, you're you, and the greatest testament to Reason's vast over-commitment to free speech is that you and lawyer-lunatic are still not simply muted by default.
(PS. "Clinger" is still Barack Obama talking about Democrats who voted for Clinton in the primary, no?
I mean, you do KNOW where the phrase you spew as an epithet came from, right?)
The leniency with respect to "pluralism" at this blog travels, vividly, a one-way street. Conservative institutions get a pass; liberal-libertarian, mainstream institutions are hectored incessantly.
You are welcome to defend that polemical, hypocritical partisanship. Those who engage in it, however, should expect to have it mentioned in reasoned debate.
He's doing a bit. Once you realize that, it's easier to take the comments for what they're intended to be and laugh accordingly.
I am doing a bit just as the Volokh Conspirators and their fans are.
Kirkland isn't "doing a bit". Maybe he was 5 years ago. Today, Kirkland has nothing to offer. At first it was funny. Then it became sad (pathetic). Now, it's better to just mute him. There's more useful matter in the vacuum of space than there is in Kirkland's head.
The way you look at me resembles the way better Americans -- culture war victors, the reasoning mainstream and educated "elite" -- look at the Volokh Conspirators and right-wingers in general.
May the better ideas continue to prevail at the American marketplace of ideas . . . which would be an insurmountable blow to the clinger cause.
Open wider, hayseeds.
“Open wider, hayseeds.”
Arthur, just because you were able to shove progressivism down your children’s throats doesn’t mean that it will work with the rest of us.
You will continue to comply with the preferences of your betters, just like all of the other conservatives on the losing end of the culture war and wrong side of history.
You are allowed to whimper and weep, complain and cry about it as much as you like.
I’ll take grape jelly next time, Arthur.
"Others indicate they will promote diversity, civility, modernity, and inclusiveness."
No, others defraud their students out of tens of thousands of dollars by misrepresenting their commitment to these principles.
Which, of course, you support.
You're a fucking moronic piece of shit. I hope your daughter gets a tumor in her uterus.
you are muted.
Yeah, that's fucked up.
See, the first sentence is, well, if a little blunt, absolutely @#! true.
The second one? No. If he has a kid, the kid is another victim, not someone to be punished with disease.
I wouldn't even wish Kirkland get cancer. I just want him to get THERAPY, or FUCK OFF and stop trolling.
If this blog would stop trolling the reasoning, accomplished, victorious American mainstream, I would have no shabby, hypocritical, bigoted partisanship to respond to.
The problem is that liberals, with few exceptions, produce liberal children. So while his daughter isn't guilty automatically, she's likely going to become a liberal, and therefore, it's reasonable to wish cancer on her to prevent there from being more liberals in the world.
Most children of conservatives are going to be liberals, too.
That's how replacement, the culture war, and American progress work.
To some degree, that's true because the leftists have control over the media and education system. But parents are pushing back. Sorry, groomer. You might be told you can't teach little Johnny about how pleasurable it is when you bareback your "husband."
What inclines you to assert I have a husband?
"The problem is that liberals, with few exceptions, produce liberal children. So while his daughter isn’t guilty automatically, she’s likely going to become a liberal, and therefore, it’s reasonable to wish cancer on her to prevent there from being more liberals in the world."
Poe's Law?
So banning images of Muhammad isn't flattering superstition, nonsense, bigotry, dogma, and ignorance?
Certainly the Rev would also stand up for Christians offended by blasphemous art. He is truly a sensitive soul.
The Rev. would prefer his form of freedom where all your freedoms are stamped out by the State and he gets to feel good about himself for making you so free.
I dislike Hamline's described conduct.
I dislike the censorship regularly imposed by conservative-controlled schools.
I dislike the viewpoint-driven censorship the Volokh Conspiracy has repeatedly imposed.
None of that censorship, which I dislike, seems to be imposed by the state (or, for the illiterate and disaffected, the State), however.
Other than that, though . . . great comment, BravoCharlieDelta!
The Volokh Conspiracy thanks you for your sycophantic service.
You only demure and walk back now after getting your filthy nose rubbed in your own piss by several of us Patriots.
Like a bad little puppy.
Walk back what?
I sense Hamline is entitled to (but should not) discipline the professor, just as I believe Prof. Volokh is entitled to impose his hypocritical, partisan, bigot-friendly censorship at his blog.
His playground, his rules.
My cursory examination indicates the professor acted professionally and the university erred. I would not fixate on this (is it ten posts from the Conspirators, or just a half-dozen, so far?), though, especially not while conspicuously ignoring other important events that are not nearly so politically convenient for cherry-picking partisans masquerading as libertarian legal scholars.
My comments focus on the hypocrisy and piss-ant partisanship of this blog, especially with respect to freedom of expression.
Patriot. Piece of shit.
Potayto. Potahtoe.
Yes, yes. It’s taboo to insult Islam, but you’re free to insult Christianity.
Little double standard there, Rev.?.
At the Harvard Kennedy School, one may not criticize the Zionist state for its obvious crimes:
Harvard Kennedy School Dean Doug Elmendorf : A Twisted Genocide-Supporting White Racist.
Harvard is a private university. I don't have a problem with a Nazi, a Klansman, or a Zionist anti-Jew when he states his opinion, but I want any of the three admitted to the Harvard community, and any such individual already in the Harvard community should be expunged.
That link simply ASSERTS genocide against Palestinians, rather than SHOWING IT.
This does not look like genocide, and since “Palestinians” also live in Israel, as citizens, who have kids and all that, you’re going to need to actually make an argument.
It is *possible* that there is attempted genocide despite both of those things, at the logical level, but it is not obvious and you have to make it plausible.
(Demanding that one “hate” something is also not mere “criticism”.
I think that one should hate Communism and Naziism, but I’d never demand that “all good people” must do so.
Demanding other people feel a specific emotion is fucking crazy bullshit.)
I helped Martin McMahon with Jewish and Zionist history when he represented Bassem al-Tamimi et al. v. Adelson et al. (including my depraved hyper-wealthy Zionist relatives). I have a library full of documentation of Zionist plans for genocide since 1881 and of documentation of Zionist genocide from Dec 1947 onward. I put together a summary in an A2A post on Quora. See Palestine belongs to Palestinians: A Zionist colonial settler participates in an ongoing genocide, which is an International capital crime for which he must be tried, almost certainly be convicted, and sentenced to a quick jab in the arm or a long prison sentence!
Only depraved and evil Zionist anti-Jew or a white racist supporter of ongoing genocide denies the obvious ongoing genocide by Zionist colonial settler anti-Jews against the natives of Palestine.
What's it like to be so mentally ill?
[Fixed Typo]
At the Harvard Kennedy School, one may not criticize the Zionist state for its obvious crimes:
Harvard Kennedy School Dean Doug Elmendorf : A Twisted Genocide-Supporting White Racist.
Harvard is a private university. I don’t have a problem with a Nazi, a Klansman, or a Zionist anti-Jew when he states his opinion, but I don't want any of the three admitted to the Harvard community, and any such individual already in the Harvard community should be expunged.
The Crimson has already removed my comments in violation of Massachusetts common carriage law.
The Crimson is not a common carrier to any sane person.
If the Federalist Society and Volokh Conspiracy conclude that such a determination would benefit the conservative cause, they will blog and conduct "scholarly" presentations proposing that the Crimson be considered a common carrier.
The Crimson is a message common carrier just as Google is a message common carrier or Amazon whole foods provides common carriage of purchases via Amazon delivery.
[Google search creates a search result page, which Google software transports to a user browser by message common carriage of digital literary property.]
One only shows complete misunderstanding of common carriage law by denying that the Harvard Crimson provides common carriage of messages among commentators and from a commentator to the author of an article.
I don't know whether this page is owned by Eugene Volokh or by Reason. One of them is providing common carriage to commentators.
David Nieporent is so ignorant of common carriage law that he seriously believes one must specify a destination address for a carrier to provide common carriage. Common carriage law was used to stop discriminations against blacks by trash haulers.
Will you stop with this once your case is dismissed?
Sometimes SCOTUS needs to be worn down to be brought to the correct conclusion. The good guys (those who realize a social medium platform is an obvious message common carrier) will metaphorically grind to dust white racist supporters of social medium abuse and discrimination.
Six Section 230 petitions are at present before SCOTUS.
NetChoice, LLC, dba NetChoice, et al. [22-277]
---
In one way or another, each individual litigation addresses Section 230 in combination with the law of a message common carrier.
All the litigation deals with
---
The case should be straightforward. The caselaw, which covers message common carriage of literary property like an unpublished news report by means of digital transmission, has existed at least as far back as 1848 when NY enacted a statute to deal with complaints from newspapers that suffered discrimination in message common carriage by telegraph companies. The 1869 Massachusetts common carriage statute was designed to cover the general case of message common carriage of digital literary property. In the 19th century, legislators understood how to write a statute.
I point out in my petition that a 1996 ICS was a (mostly) dialup service like AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe, et al. Section 230 addressed a specific legal issue that an ICS had with providing a portal to a vast amount of Internet content. Even though the decision in Zeran v. America Online, 129 F.3d 327 (4th Cir. 1997), is atrocious for reasons, which I explain, Section 230 applies to AOL in 1997. The definition of ICS in Section 230 does not apply to a social medium platform of 2012 or later.
So, no. sigh
Your petition that has so little merit that nobody is bothering to respond to it.
And this is 1,000% wrong. That's not remotely the specific legal issue that Section 230 addressed.
Is a social media platform of 2012 or later an information service or system? Yes. Does it provide or enable computer access by multiple users to a computer server? Also yes. Oops! Martillo is crazy yet again!
It is! "Message common carrier" is gibberish. "Digital literary personal property" is gibberish. Once you realize that, you see how easy the case is. None of these are common carriers, and you have zero rights to use them, whereas they have a 1A right to decide what speech to broadcast. And you lose yet again.
I think you are confusing a necessary acceptance with outright approval.
BTU, Liberty, etc are places I find repugnant in many of their teachings and beliefs. I also think that as private institutions they are free to teach any lunacy they want. This is the cost of living in a free society.
I don't get it. Prof. Volokh is arguing against speech / image restrictions. The commenter you're assailing agrees with him. So, what's "faux" about their libertarianism?
They're Secretly Only In Favor Of SOME Free Speech Because Reasons.
You left out "Klinger" Jerry,
I agree that BYU is upfront about the behavior issue. And student behavior is not the same as censoring what can be considered in the classroom.
BYU and other conservative-controlled campuses aggressively censor classroom presentation and research. The right-wingers attracted to this blog seem eager to disregard that point, which point would interfere with this blog's pathetic nipping at the heels and ankles of strong, liberal-libertarian mainstream institutions.
"BYU forbids premarital sex"
So it does, but does it restrict free academic discussion? I don't think the former rule leads to the latter.
Most universities used to have rules on the books against premarital sex. BYU's "error" was not to move with the times.
BYU forbids engaging in premarital sex -- I highly doubt that they forbid academically-relevant discussions of premarital sex.
We live in a pluralistic society--which means that we all have to deal with what may offend us. Women may not like to see some Orthodox Jewish customs practiced openly. I may not like to hear the racial undertones of some music--"Cave Bitch" leaps to mind.
Gotta get over that stuff.
Totally.
Some people are so fucking entitled!
Conservative insurrectionists emulating Prof. Volokh's heroes and colleagues are still being cleared from Brazil's government offices -- with Republican stalwarts such as Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, and Jason Miller also in the mix -- and Prof. Volokh figures it's time to talk about . . .
this shit. The tenth or so post whining about Hamline at this white, male, wingnut blog.
Carry on, clingers.
Oh stop--there were rioters after Trump was inaugurated, and they walked.
They literally lit DC on fire and no one did shit about it.
Get your own blog and write for YOUR audience or at least say something new here.
The Volokh Conspiracy is a nonstop regurgitation of about a dozen whines concerning all of this damned progress, reason, science, and inclusiveness in modern America. If you wanted something new, you wouldn't be here.
Hmmm... I thought the topic of this post was censorship in colleges & universities. You seem to support such censorship. Sorry, friend, but that's not "reason," and not the kind of "progress" I'm interested in.
I sense you are more of a Regent-Liberty-Ouachita Baptist-Hillsdale-Franciscan-Oral Roberts-Wheaton fan than a Hamline-Harvard-Berkeley-Columbia-Michigan-NYU-mainstream fan.
Good luck with that as the culture war continues to diminish the relevance of your preferences to modern American life.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Anyone fighting the commies is a freedom fighter, whether in the United States or Brazil.
I knew this post would be like manna from heaven for you, Rev. But you have not disappointed. Thank you for delivering and for exceeding high expectations.
Keep up the bit.
You prefer the Volokh Conspiracy's censorship, hypocrisy, and pathetic whining?
You are entitled to that preference. You are not entitled to the respect of the American mainstream, though.
The American mainstream has become jogger worship, child strippers at gay clubs, Pride Pox Pandemics, female penises, and rampant Federal Failures.
That would be a No from me, Dawg.
The Volokh Conspirators seem to agree with you.
And they probably know was "jogger worship" means.
Yes. America is run for the benefit of blacks. Paul Kersey has written extensively on it.
And this blog is written for the benefit of the gallinalg85 audience.
...at this white, male, wingnut blog.
You so seem to feel so at home here.
Great comment. You should see the welcome mats Prof. Volokh rolls out for me periodically.
Does anybody teach The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn in modern times?
Not if they want to keep their job.
Or show “Blazing Saddles” in a film class?
or this great Richard Pryor Album
https://www.discogs.com/release/25416943-Richard-Pryor-Supernigger/image/SW1hZ2U6ODc1NzAwMTY=
Frank "Look! up in the Sky! it's a Bat! it's a Crow! it's Super-(redacted)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Forget about Mark Twain. Pretty soon, the Bible will be taboo.
That's true, but not because of PC leftists. It's the right-wing book banning that's gonna get the bible cancelled. Prostitutes, men laying with men, polygamy... that material ain't age-appropriate. Groomer stuff.
Yes. This has been another chapter in the continuing series of easy answers to stupid questions.
I love the right wing circle jerk on stuff like this where it's trivial to verify that their strawman is nonsense, but everyone chimes in so certain it must be true.
What is a university? Is it there to change anybody’s view on anything, or is there to provide a product (mainly a credential useful for job purposes but also a social network and some memories) to a customer base?
From a product perspective, having any art classes at all or not is hardly likely to have much impact on customers’ job prospects, social network, or likelihood to donate as alumni. It’s just a kind of trim to add a little bit of class to the product, sort of like a sauce on a dish at a restaurant or a pattern on a handbag. So why not have the art classes the customers want? Other product designers avoid trim features customers object to. Why not here?
From a business perspective, showing one painting is pretty much just as good as showing any other in terms of customer satisfaction and access to markets. And it’s not clear showing paintings even adds much value. It’s really kind of an old fashioned sort of trim, perhaps better not done at all. Perhaps they should just do web design classes.
Does Prof. Volokh wish to discuss the taboos against using certain words to describe conservatives at his blog?
Tell us about "sl_ck-jaw_d," professor.
Explain the removal of comments containing "p_ssy."
Why do you forbid the use of "c_p succ_r?"
And why is Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland no longer permitted to speak at this blog?
Will this blog continue to ignore its repeated, viewpoint-driven censorship while nipping lamely and hypocritically at the liberal-libertarian, mainstream schools that conservatives resent and envy?
It’s not about the words you use. It’s about the bigotry and hatred behind them.
Arthur is against all forms of bigotry & hatred . . . except his own.
This blog accepts (welcomes) comments that call for liberals to be shot in the face, placed face-down in landfills, sent to Zyklon showers, raped, pushed through woodchippers, and gassed. Volokh Conspiracy comments frequently indicate immigrants, Muslims, Blacks, and others should be killed. The Volokh Conspiracy — and not just the commenters — also publishes vile racial slurs regularly (more often than monthly).
The Volokh Conspiracy has drawn the line at the use of “sl_ck-jaw_d” and “p_ssy” and “c_p succ_r” to describe conservatives, though.
Great comment, Jerry B.
You seem to be the precise target audience of this blog.
No interest in defending your record, Volokh Conspirators?
Cowardice improves neither hypocrisy nor bigotry.
I've never seen such comments - and I support them being removed.
I see YOUR bullshit about the Political Other and endless namecalling EVERY TIME I come here.
(Which "vile racial slurs" do you believe actual posters, not commenters use every month?
Can you LINK TO THE POSTS?
We can WAIT.)
“I’ve never seen such comments”
(1) You have never seen comments calling for non-conservatives to be put in landfills and woodchippers, gassed, shot, etc.
or
(2) You have not noticed the Volokh Conspirators (one in particular) repeatedly using a vile racial slur?
Prof. Volokh disagrees with you. He does not remove vividly specific calls for death to liberals; he does not remove vile racial slurs (indeed, he brags about using vile racial slurs and refusing to be cowed by “politically correct” critics who question his habitual use of vile racial slurs).
If you wish to learn about the Volokh Conspiracy’s use of vile racial slurs, check these dates:
February 10, 13, 21, 25, 2021
March 5, 11, 22, 2021
April 8, 2021
May 2, 14, 2021
June 9, 11, 2021
August 9, 2021
October 26, 2021
November 22, 2021
December 1, 26, 2021
February 10, 12, 2022
March 31, 2022
April 22, 2022
May 13, 23, 2022
June 26, 29, 2022
July 7, 2022
August 8, 9, 2022
October 24, 2022
November 21, 2022
If you like racial slurs, you will love what you find to have been published at the Volokh Conspiracy on those days. (That likely is not a complete list, but it is a worthwhile start.)
Do you think you are helping Prof. Volokh by attracting attention to the record of vile racial slurs and hypocritical censorship at this blog?
Could you provide links and not just dates?
Not that I don't believe you...
I will provide one example. You (or anyone else) can readily find others. If you wish to have me perform additional basic research for you (because you are unable, wish to rely on a vendor, etc.), my hourly rate is $600.
I have pointed to thirty distinct dates -- not vile racial slurs, but thirty dates on which this blog has published vile racial slurs, often repeatedly throughout a day -- in less than two years.
That sounds bigoted to me. Anyone wish to try to defend it?
No need -- he can't.
Back in the day when search engines actually indexed the comments here (i.e., were still marginally useful to actually find things), I pulled up the exact posts referencing Zyklon B showers, landfills, etc. and reposted them in a reply to Artie.
As I recall, not a single one was even remotely what he claimed (e.g., there was a post with the phrase "Zyklon B shower" in it somewhere but not directed toward anyone in particular). And as I further recall, after I posted all that he ran for the exits with nary a peep.
At least this time he's a bit more creative barfing out a big series of dates (go fish!), but I'll cheerfully predict he'll not be providing any specific links to any specific posts that actually back up any of his tall tales.
You are lying, Life of Brian.
Plenty of people have seen the calls for gassing liberal judges, the incessant (nearly gleeful) vile racial slurs, the calls for placing liberals face-down in landfills, the calls for immigrants to be shot and killed (the non-whites, at least). The "shoot liberals in the face as they open their front doors" was a popular one among this blog's fans for a while. If you haven't seen the references to Zyklon showers (I didn't know what that was until a Volokh Conspiracy fan told me I should be sent to one) and woodchippers, you haven't spent much time here.
You remind me of Brett Bellmore, who has claimed he was never a birther.
How about it, Prof. Volokh, or other Volokh Conspirators. Does a single one of you guys wish to claim that your blog has not permitted many comments containing weirdly detailed threats against non-conservatives? Anyone?
While repeatedly censoring those who disparage or poke fun at conservatives? Any Conspirator want to try to deny that?
This would be a great chance to discredit me, Prof. Volokh. Accuse me of lying when I state that you have censored me repeatedly while enabling your fans to call for liberals to be gassed, shot, raped, woodchipped, and placed face-down in landfills. Show your fans that I am wrong and you are not a hypocrite.
Unless, of course, my assertions are accurate.
And documented.
I note you met my invitation to post actual evidence with more unsupported wailing. Post one link substantiating a single one of your overwrought claims. Just one.
I've been here for over a decade, Artie, on at least three platforms.
The only truly vile slurs I've had the misfortune of reading from a regular commenter here are yours: some examples Eugene posted a few years ago of the unbelievably odious material that led him to ban your prior account.
So carry on with your little pity party if that's how you choose to waste substantial portions of whatever remains of your life. I'll occasionally call you out on it just like this, just for the benefit of newcomers around here that might think you actually were somehow harmed. But each and every time you fail to provide any actual examples of actual posts where these fanciful stories of yours actually happened, you just drive the nails further into the coffin. TTFN.
That makes you the type of right-wing bigot who doesn’t mind the vile racial slurs this blog publishes habitually (at least 30 occasions, often multiple times per occasion, hundreds in aggregate). Which is not surprising.
But each and every time you fail to provide any actual examples of actual posts where these fanciful stories of yours actually happened, you just drive the nails further into the coffin. TTFN.
This is the email I received from Prof. Volokh (UCLA law email account) on March 2, 2014 (12:23 a.m.) after he vanished comments in which I described hypocritical conservatives as “c_p succ_rs”:
Prof. Volokh sent this to me on April 26, 2019 (1:02 a.m.), after I called some of his conservative fans “sl_ck-jaw_d b_gots”:
This is the message from Prof. Volokh that banned Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland (Oct. 6, 2010, 6:02 p.m.), after I questioned vanished comments:
Prof. Volokh sent this to me on January 9, 2021, after I described one of his fans as a “p_ssy”:
(If I am wrong about those quotations in any respect or to any degree, I invite Prof. Volokh to correct the record. I encourage his fans not to hold their breath.)
There is more, but that is enough for now, and it didn’t require me to comb through years of bigoted, threatening comments from this blog’s racist, gay-bashing, misogynistic, antisemitic, ignorant, Islamophobic, immigrant-hating fans.
If that isn’t enough “actual evidence” for a worthless wingnut, perform your own research.
I grant you one point. Regardless of what you write about me, it is remarkable that you can type anything at all with your nose so far up Prof. Volokh’s ass and your tongue so firmly affixed to his scrotum.
Well, we've reached end game a lot sooner than I could have dreamed.
Your press-stopping "proof" of this long-bemoaned barrage of "censorship" is... wait for it... a series of (very polite under the circumstances, I think) email requests. Stunning.
And even were we to accept your ridiculous hijacking of the King's English, you've left unanswered exactly what brand of crystal ball you have in your possession to divine that other posters haven't experienced such "censorship" over the years as you endlessly claim.
But you know the most hilarious thing about this, Artie? It's the way in which you freely, proudly, and haughtily presented this "evidence" -- that which could only prove you even more foolish than you already appear -- as though it somehow advanced your case.
Thanks for playing, and for the early morning chuckle.
Prof. Volokh removed a number of my comments.
That is censorship.
He instructed me to stop using certain words.
That is censorship.
He banned a parody account.
That is censorship.
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators. They try to defend your right-wing nuttery and censorious hypocrisy because they are dumb and dishonest. No wonder your deans (this applies to those of you at better law schools) wish you would find other jobs.
I note you took a hard pass on the inescapable fact that there's simply no way for you to know that others about which you routinely moan haven't also experienced "censorship" under your uber-creative definition. Probably because it's... well, you know, inescapable.
You're basically out of runway, Artie. You'd best hope this article gets pushed down past the horizon soon so maybe everyone will forget how you finally pulled back the curtain and showed us your (very unflattering) keister.
This blog has not removed hundreds of comments that use a vile racial slur (which is not surprising, because its management apparently can't get enough of using vile racial slurs).
This blog has not removed comments calling for liberals to be gassed, placed face-down in landfills, shot in the face, raped, pushed through woodchippers, sent to Zyklon showers, etc.
It has removed -- and forbidden -- comments that refer to conservatives as "sl_ck-j_ws," "p_ssies," and "c_p succ_rs." It also removed a parody account that never called for anyone to be killed for political beliefs.
If you think you have defended that record by claiming Prof. Volokh is an even-handed (rather than partisan) censor, you are as delusional as the QAnon kooks, birthers, and white supremacists this blog attracts like (carefully selected and arranged) rancid meat attracts flies.
How many uses of a racial slur at a right-wing blog, in your judgment, would constitute evidence that someone is a racist Republican or a bigotty, bigoted bigot?
Here's one for you. Sorry I couldn't find anything closer in time or space. This one's fully 9 hours old and half a thread away.
I find it odd that the Volokh Conspiracy and its fans try to pretend this blog’s record of bigotry, violent threats, and partisan censorship is not established and vivid. Unless the Volokh Conspiracy has scrubbed the archives, the evidence is damning and available.
Although, on second thought, dishonesty and cowardice could be seen as natural complements to the racism, gay-bashing, misogyny, white nationalism, antisemitism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, white supremacy, and belligerent right-wing ignorance that animate the Volokh Conspiracy and its fans.
Ah, Leo. Your relationship with the truth around here has always seemed a bit... flexible.
Not only did Artie sort of cut the legs out from under your argument by 1) not linking to anything like that post himself despite repeated invitations, and 2) instead choosing to go off on a weird harangue about emails from Eugene, the post you linked to is from a 2-3-week old reboot account of a character that has to keep making new accounts precisely because the old ones keep getting... well, I'll let you do just a BIT of the mental work here.
Oh, and though I'm sure Artie was grateful for the distraction, you'll note his extremely carefully written response does not in fact agree that your example fits one of the categories he enumerated above.
Other than all that, really great work.
Prof. Volokh knows commenters have proposed killing liberals in bizarrely specific ways, because he has been asked about it and indicated he would permit such comments.
He also knows he has imposed censorship repeated — he did it, and he has bragged about it (‘I would do it again’).
He also knows he has used vile racial slurs at this blog many times — dozens, just in the past two years — and permitted commenters to use vile racial slurs hundreds of times. His habitual use of vile racial slurs has precipitated a number of online discussions in which he has participated.
Yet he and the other Conspirators watch mutely while their followers claim none of this happened.
That is the work of a coward, a person of low character, and a partisan hack. Coward. Jerk. Hack.
Cowardly, character-deprived, partisan right-wing hacks are among my favorite culture war casualties.
You do realize that every provocative, spittle-laced rant like this that you post (and even come and edit to add even more insults) and stays up for the world to see fundamentally undercuts the very premise of your argument, right?
I mean, you do realize that, RIGHT?
It's hard to see how either answer could be particularly comforting.
I am not going to comb through years of bigoted, violence-contemplating comments at the Volokh Conspiracy without compensation. I am, however, willing to put up $5,000 -- with Prof. Kerr holding the money, if he agrees. You would post a similar sum. I would perform the research. If I find the evidence, I would receive $300 per hour (half my normal rate) for finding the evidence, from your $5,000. If you are correct, and Volokh Conspirators can not be demonstrated to have called for liberals to be shot, gassed, woodchipped, Zykloned, etc., you would receive the $5,000 I provided.
Or perhaps Prof. Volokh could just agree to search for certain terms in his blog's comments (if he has greater access than others do).
Or perhaps Prof. Volokh could stop being a cowardly, hypocritical jerk and acknowledge to his fans that he has observed and continued to publish comments calling for liberals to be gassed, landfilled, shot, raped, Xykloned, woodchipped, etc.
Maybe Prof. Volokh has the courage to acknowledge the facts.
We shall see. So far, he is not even willing to acknowledge that he uses vile racial slurs more often than many people change toothbrushes, despite vivid evidence that has caused his dean to apologize and others to publicly label him a bigot and/or a jerk.
Ah, Leo. Your relationship with the truth around here has always seemed a bit… flexible.
I would challenge you to substantiate that or apologize, but I think we both know neither will happen.
Artie sort of cut the legs out from under your argument
He did nothing of the sort. You demanded “one link substantiating a single one of [Arthur’s allegedly] overwrought claims," and I gave you one. One that shows that if the only vile slurs you’ve had the misfortune of reading from a regular commenter are Arthur’s, it can only be because you read with blinders on.
These bigoted right-wing jerks aren’t worth your time, Leo Marvin.
They are cowards. They are hypocrites. They are Republicans. They are conservatives. They are the disaffected, defeated roadkill of the American culture war.
I finally get it,
it's the "Revolting" Arthur L. Kirtland
and I get it, "Jerry Sandusky" isn't the most popular name.
lmao I made you update your script!
I own you.
Imagine a Muslim student who objects to women with uncovered heads, either in-person on campus, or depicted in pictures.
Mandatory hijab for all females. Mandatory yarmulkes for men.
They have abandoned their sisters. They used to point out this was oppression. Then someone ordered up a meme they did it to honor their men and not arouse them.
Which no one denied, but they used to even point out that was a shit reason and a control mechanism.
But the echo chamber’s top, where the power manipulators fly free, ordered them to shut up under pain of cancellation, and so it was written.
60s feminists bent the knee.
This is the same reason Amish and other women wear long dresses. This is how far you have become twisted, feminists.
Maybe don't tell women how to feminist properly.
Why not?
But then how are they going to know?
???
Say what you mean.
I said exactly what I mean. He's criticizing feminists for their priorities.
Well, not really criticizing, but rather attacking.
That's kinda bullshit coming from a right-wing dude.
Why?
Supporting Muslim oppression of women is something an actual feminist would do? Doing so while complaining about the patriarchy is logically consistent?
He’s pointing out their hypocrisy related to this subject, not criticizing feminism generally. Seems fair.
Who says they don't support opressed Muslim women? They guy who says feminists wear hijabs on college campuses to avoid offending Muslim men? There's logical consistency, and then there's just making shit up. Supporting the victims of patriarchal opression in Muslim countries is a fraught, delicate and even risky business. Trolling Muslims on campus is just culture war bullshit.
"not really criticizing, but rather attacking"
What's the difference?
One is constructive.
"What’s the difference?"
When Sarcastro does it, it's criticizing.
When Krayt does it, it's attacking.
I never realized that feminist is a verb. Is it a transitive or intransitive verb?
Maybe they should stop inventing alternative universes where everyone got so concerned about offending Muslim men women started wearing hijabs, for a start.
Honestly, WTF are you talking about? See the reaction to the protests in Iran to see how full of shit you are.
Mandatory hijab for all females.
That would be a Title IX violation that the institution would lose.
And yet it is the logical extension of the censorship policies discussed above. If displaying the face of Mohammed is mortally offensive (to some) and therefore must be forbidden (to all), why is the offensiveness (to some) of uncovered female hair not subject to the same treatment?
Because nobody who isn't Muslim gives a shit about displaying the face of Mohammed, except to troll Muslims, I expect.
Yes imagine it. Keep imagining. It still won't be real, but in your vivid imagnation it might as well be, and you'll have fellow imagineers agreeing with you that your imagining are real and prove them right.
Yeowch. I guess this is the latest variation on "go start your own social media company."
What a profoundly good thing for Mr. Hussein that his own standard wasn't applied heretofore when deciding what could/could not be taught in universities.
I find it hard to believe the CAIR would be any more receptive of imaged of Muhammad at a local library. I kind hope some library calls their bluff and shows an art exhibit exclusively of depictions of the prophet.
Between a university and a library a university is absolutely the more appropriate place to challenge cultural norms. Universities and students used to be proud of that fact.
This story is exactly why Islam doesn't belong in the United States, and its adherents should be given a chance to leave or be executed. The First Amendment should be interpreted to exclude Islam.
Its adherents should be told before they arrive that we value free speech, and if that is in conflict with their values, perhaps they would be happier living somewhere else. They would then be given a choice to either come here with the understanding that they don't get to censor speech they disagree with, or not come here.
And what if they lie in order to gain entry? That's what Moose-lims do.
... do you imagine that the American Way and the Constitution allow things like "execute everyone of this religion"?
Or that calling for that is in any way compatible with ... er, any form of libertarian or constitutionalist principle?
The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written to protect the "posterity" of the founders, who were white Protestants. Not Muslims. Not Jews. Not Blacks. Not Hispanics. Not anyone else.
Ah look, the Rev's got himself a soulmate.
Show me where Arthur ever called for anyone to be killed.
" find it hard to believe the CAIR would be any more receptive of imaged of Muhammad at a local library."
CAIR is the US branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Draw your own conclusions.
They're terrorists, and anyone who worships the monkey god Allah is a terrorist by extension.
That is true = CAIR is the US branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Holyland trial, right?
A university is where teaching occurs. A library is a depository of academic resources, where individualized education occurs.
While I have little respect for CAIR, this is simply asinine.
FWIW, the Times talked to someone from the national chapter of CAIR and he had a more nuanced take on the topic:
The idea that controversial stuff can't be taught at universities is without exception the single most anti-education comment I've ever read.
In most cases, that "controversial stuff" is science or history that old-timey conservative dogma finds inconvenient.
And what about this case?
Hamline seems to have erred. Maybe it became confused, and thought it was a conservative-controlled school for a moment there.
Because conservatives are always falling over themselves to appease Muslim sensibilities.
No, because conservatives turn essentially every campus they get their hands on into a censorship-shackled, openly discriminatory, science-suppressing, nonsense-teaching, dogma-enforcing, speech code-imposing, academic freedom-rejecting, fourth-tier yahoo factory.
I agree. Unless it's woke stuff or CRT. That's got to be stopped.
By coincidence, this just appeared in my inbox.
AFA Calls for an End to “Divisive Concepts” Legislation
New wave of state level proposals seeks to ban instruction on race and gender topics
So we have suppression coming from both ends. Students demanding no offensive ideas in class, and states demanding no offensive subjects in the curriculum. Is there a cogent reason to treat one different than the other?
Oh good grief. K-12 students, generally, HAVE to be in class, and they have a moral right to a good education. Teaching 10 year old kids about crazy sex stuff (no judgments here) just isn't ok--that's for parents. College students are adults and have voluntarily joined a university. I recall one of my professors (an open homosexual before it was totally ok to be out of the closet) had a huge picture of Hitler hanging in his office. His reason: "Kiddos, history has some bad stuff, and this poster brings that reality home." Good prof.
What bullshit.
A poster of Hitler brings nothing home except what Hitler looked like.
Bernard. Yes it is an overstatement. But would you have a problem if it were a picture of Stalin? or Trump? or Indira Ghandi?
How about that great homophobe Che?
Sure why not
Don,
Depends what you mean by a problem.
To me, putting up a picture of some public figure in your office generally means you admire that individual.
So I would have a serious problem with anyone who has a picture of Hitler or Stalin up, for various reasons.
First, in the case of Hitler, I and, I imagine, many other Jewish students, would be uncomfortable not just consulting with the professor in his office, but with taking the class. Looking at a poster of someone who murdered many of my relatives, and would have wanted to kill me is not conducive to learning. Unlike the painting of Muhammed under discussion, it serves no pedagogical purpose.
OTOH, I have no personal connection to Stalin's crimes, but would still be revolted by a poster of him in the professor's office.
We do see images of Stalin, and maybe more of Lenin, occasionally, but the context does not generally suggest admiration.
Trump? I'd conclude they were an asshole, but wouldn't have any particular "problem" with it, though, depending on the class involved, I might regard the instruction as dubious.
Indira Gandhi? Would raise a few questions in my mind. I'm not particularly familiar with her career, though I am aware that there was some nastiness around a state of emergency and so on. I wouldn't consider it inappropriate, subject to further information.
Hitler's actions were not "murder." Murder is a killing within the framework of an existing legal system. Wartime genocide does not qualify.
“Hitler’s actions were not “murder.” Murder is a killing within the framework of an existing legal system”
Sorry, everything that Hitler did WAS within the framework of the existing legal system. Look up the Nuremburg Racial Purity Laws for starters.
That is the ethical issue with the Nuremburg trials — everyone convicted was convicted of “crimes against humanity” which were not violations of German law at the time.
And then reflect on Lincoln’s suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus — which technically never was in rebellion…
That's exactly my point. Murder is the unlawful killing. No "laws" apply during war.
The winner's laws apply after, though: That's one of the perks of winning.
Thanks for this very helpful clarification that adds no value whatsoever to the conversation. You must be fun at parties.
It does. Jews like to whine about how oppressed they supposedly are, and the inappropriate use of "murder" is part of that. But if anyone were to say that the Allied soldiers "murdered" Axis soldiers, they'd be laughed at. It's no different. Killings done during wartime, even when the victims are civilians, are not murder. They might be wrong, they might be genocide, they might be all sorts of things, but not murder.
Oh yes, if you say "Hitler genocided the Jews" instead of "Hitler murdered the Jews" people will be much less sympathetic I'm sure.
"To me, putting up a picture of some public figure in your office generally means you admire that individual.
So I would have a serious problem with anyone who has a picture of Hitler or Stalin up, for various reasons."
In this case, though, the reason was apparently specified: "His reason: “Kiddos, history has some bad stuff, and this poster brings that reality home.”
"We do see images of Stalin, and maybe more of Lenin, occasionally, but the context does not generally suggest admiration."
I'm not grokking why you view pictures of Hitler as generally expressing admiration, but pictures of Stalin as generally suggesting the converse.
(I was thinking of providing a couple of exemplars, and so did a google image search for 'stalin' and 'hitler'. At least to my eye, the first page of results for either have a fairly evident difference in tone. The ones of Stalin are mostly of a fairly genial 'Uncle Joe' persona[1], while the general tone of the Hitler ones is 'bug eyed madman'. Give it a try and see what you think.)
[1]Which almost seems creepier, when you know the history.
I'm not seeing how this poster, (Which is actually hanging in my office!) expresses admiration for Stalin. I thought it just expressed a sense of humor.
It doesn't.
See my recent reply to Absaroka.
Sorry, but G>W> Bush was the decider, not you.
I think the average reader would have understood my comment to exclude things like Brett's poster.
In this case, though, the reason was apparently specified: “His reason: “Kiddos, history has some bad stuff, and this poster brings that reality home.”
Which makes no sense to me whatsoever. That's why I called it bullshit. Does he think people coming into his office never heard of Hitler, have no idea what he did? And if they don't is the idea that they will ask this guy, and he'll explain it all to them? I mean, how the fuck does this poster bring reality home?
I’m not grokking why you view pictures of Hitler as generally expressing admiration, but pictures of Stalin as generally suggesting the converse.
Good question. I wasn't at all clear. What I am getting at is that when we see these pictures they are often in a satirical or other "non-serious vein, like Brett's picture. So the context is really what matters. I mean, we see a lot of images of Hitler like that too, not to mention movie and TV portrayals, but they don't express admiration either.
I guess what I should have said is that if you hang a large poster of someone on your wall, without some additional message, you are (generally) expressing admiration. It's not specific to Hitler or Stalin.
"Does he think people coming into his office never heard of Hitler, have no idea what he did?"
That's...actually a possibility, alas. WWII ended 78 years ago. I've seen polls - sorry, no link - asking college age kids to distinguish WWII, WWI, and the Civil War, and... there was more confusion than a geezer like me would expect. But that's because my father and all my uncles served. In my Wonder Bread years (just to fix the date), WWII was closer to the present than 9/11 is to today. I may be misremembering, but I think you, like me, are on the geezerish end of the spectrum. Our set of 'everyone knows this' is different from 'the kidz these days'.
Definitely on the geezer end. You can leave off the "ish."
And yeah. I am constantly amazed at what people don't know. A friend of the same vintage and I have a running joke about "Everyone knows that."
The way I like to illustrate the jarringness of our geezerhood (which I take to be at least roughly comparable) is that if you scroll backward from my date of birth the number of years I've been alive, the POTUS would be Grover Cleveland. Another is that I've now lived through more than a quarter of our nation's history. Both pretty dumbfounding IMO.
Well, I can tell you from personal experience that a poster of Hitler in a college prof's office is a conversation-starter. His point was that history can be really ugly and turning away from that ugliness is anti-thetical to learning.
It seems to me if he really thought that he'd have a poster of emaciated Holocaust victims or pits full of bodies.
Nobody asked you and or cares about what you think.
"A poster of Hitler brings nothing home except what Hitler looked like."
No, it's also a reminder that he existed.
And like the picture of Mohamed, a big portion of this is the context in which it is presented.
If you want to remind people that someone existed, shouldn't you at least pick an undeservedly obscure figure rather than one that's almost universally recognisable?
I'd suggest that they have a bigger moral right to not be coerced by the state into a state-run education.
"Good education" is such an immensely subjective thing and huge tar-pit that asserting a moral right to it seems useless - and also difficult to support, frankly.
We should admit frankly that the reason for state-run education in 2023 is "free daycare for parents", not "providing a truly good education".
Because that describes the forces involved AND explains the outcomes far better.
Teaching 10 year old kids about crazy sex stuff
I don't think a story about a kid with two moms counts as "crazy sex stuff." Do you?
A family with two moms probably has less crazy sex than a family with a mom and a dad, if the stereotypes are to be believed.
Are we banning all books with parents in them, since parents imply sex?
Right.
On the one hand, I agree with EV about cases like this.
On the other, I find him awfully selective in what he chooses to highlight, and sometimes whose versions of the facts he accepts.
RW meddling to distort the teaching of history is no problem at all, it seems.
Okay, bernard. Be specific about your complaint.
The NYT managed to have a large story about the Hamline shitstorm this weekend. I also have not seen NYT storys about RW distortions of history.
So I do not see EV being so selective,
By RW you mean right wing? The left is equally guilty. For example, I think of banning Huckleberry Finn, or Disney's Songs of the South.
That is what bernard referred to Right Wing calls for censorship.
Archibald,
I think of banning Huckleberry Finn, or Disney’s Songs of the South.
I agree there are way too many would-be censors on the left.
Huckleberry Finn is a hugely important work of American literature. No question it should be taught in English classes.
Song of the South? I guess you could use it to show how widely mythical portrayals of the antebellum South were spread, but that might involve going into the actual facts.
I did not intend to imply that all the censors were on the right, just that EV seems to concentrate on the left-wing ones.
Well, he's mostly covering academic censorship, and the few institutions where the right might get up to that are islands in a sea of left-wing dominated institutions.
And the right-wing institutions that engage in it are usually religious institutions that don't pretend to be doing anything else.
Censorship and bigotry are neither improved by a cloak of religion nor transformed by superstition into anything other than censorship and bigotry.
Conservatives flout academic freedom on essentially every campus they control.
Has Huckleberry Finn been banned? And Song Of The South has NOT aged well, no more than that Dr Seuss book did. Lots of things that didn't age well aren't in circulation any more.
Been a while since I saw "Song of The South, so I can't really speak to that. But that Dr. Seuss book aged about as well as anything did, actually makes a great example of how utterly humorless left-wing censors are.
To Think I Saw it on Mulberry Street was canceled because of an Asian man eating noodles
The 'left' didn't censor the book, the publishers just didn't publish it.
LOL! Yeah, go with that, why don't you.
I will. Because it's what happened.
Yeah, the publisher just spontaneously decided not to republish a book they could profitably sell. They weren't being pressured, or anything like that. [/sarc]
As Ray Bradbury famously said about his work, Farenheit 451, “There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women’s Lib/Republican, Mattachine/FourSquareGospel feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse. Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.”
Silly of him to think it would stop short of nursery rhymes, wasn't it?
Who said it was spontaneous? They decided it had aged badly and didn't want to be associated with it. Unless you have some particular insight into how the decision was actually reached, you'll have to accept that you're making shit up.
A writer? Complaining about editors? That wasn't even new in the 18th century.
I like how we've somehow gotten to the point that a private entity choosing not to sell something that they own (completely on their own volition as far as I can tell) is somehow an example of censorship.
This is like saying that left wing censors got rid of Batgirl.
Oh, LOL. Just like all those private business owners used to choose to give money to the nice people in suits that were on their way to a pick-up baseball game -- completely on their own volition as far as anyone could tell.
Hell, just look at Harry Potter if you want the non-academic sort. The leftists went from full on adoration to jihadis against the author for having the temerity to Express a belief that women exist and are different from men in drag.
Since you suggested it, let's do look at Harry Potter. Have any of the books or movies been cancelled or censored in response to the criticism of Rowling? If they have, someone should notify Spectrum cable, because I can't turn on the television without being greeted by a cacophony of wingardium leviosas.
They even canceled that massive new computer game oh wait no they didn't.
Late to the thread, but full of shit as always.
Has Huckleberry Finn been banned?
It has been in various places and various times.
https://www.thelist.com/1045098/the-real-reason-the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn-became-a-banned-book/
All schools, not universities, I see and, like, a tiny handful of examples? But I’m glad we agree that taking books off school curriculums and out of libraries is bad.
Your question was has it been banned. It has. Next question.
Does the handful of 'bannings' of Huckleberry Finn put the current campaign of book banings by the right into perspective?
Your clinger-colored lenses are so effective you should seek a patent.
You probably should send a few bucks to FIRE, too. FIRE emulates your partisan slant and hypocrisy.
Distortions of history?
Well, you know, the Confederacy was not actually a noble cause, and its officers were not wonderful gentlemen, and the slaves didn't spend all their time dancing and playing the banjo.
Yeah, I'm clowning, and most of that stuff has gone by the wayside, but not entirely. I think a lot of the CRT hate ends up being censorship of one form or another, as does some of the LGBTQ panic.
Just looking around, I find this, for example.
And Republicans seem to love banning books.
There's more, but I think I've hit the link limit, and have other things to do.
EV is outlandishly selective. Like many publishers, his selectivity shows up (or gets obscured) when he does it by exclusion, which is a lot. I generally do not object to that kind of publishing bias—press freedom permits it—even encourages it—and if a publisher takes the stuff he does publish right down the middle, he ought to get full credit, while others remain free to pick up any ball he chooses not to run with. In an information ecosystem characterized by diversity and profusion among publishers, that worked fine.
But I do not think EV does take the stuff he covers down the middle. And the information ecosystem has changed dramatically for the worse. Private oversight of public expressive outcomes is much less than before. Diversity and profusion among publishers is sharply down. The prior custom to edit everything prior to publication has been excused out of practical existence by a legislative blunder—the passage of Section 230.
Thus, the law to govern expressive conduct upon which EV continues to insist, was formed at a time when imposing expressive challenges to personal liberty were instead dealt with privately, and thus went all but unnoticed by the law. The law remained for many decades under little pressure to adjust. Now, with so many private mechanisms disabled, a host of previously-cabined expressive troubles have escaped private control, to challenge the legal system constantly. EV advocates to ignore the challenges.
These Hamline threads example that characteristic kind of advocacy from EV. He has done this enough to know that one salient counter-argument to his sweeping, ultra-principled 1A advocacy is that it is based on a bygone reality.
During that prior era when most published discourse was edited by a third party prior to publication, it was not easy to weaponize an otherwise principled-seeming argument on behalf of expressive freedom. Attempts to take such an argument and transform it into a trollish attack on specific disfavored people were destined to fail. They encountered editors who could discern what was going on, and discard that kind of swill before it got published. And of course that is mostly what happened.
Now, with giant media everywhere which do not practice prior editing, the nation struggles against a burgeoning partisan vogue for personalized attacks on specific subgroups, especially on university campuses. Those parade perversely in disguise, as 1A defenses. Without editors to intervene, they find their targets. Their targets go beyond affront with destructive effect to the intended subgroups. They extend also to undermining the university system, insofar as it has attempted to spread its offerings on purpose to a wider audience than it previously served.
Paradoxically, trolls attacking under the banner of the 1A have discovered a means to discredit as anti-freedom university attempts to guard equality of educational opportunity for all members of a university community. It seems hardly possible that such a notable change in expressive circumstance goes without notice.
I do not pretend that is an easy problem to solve. Professor Volokh does pretend. He pretends it is an easy problem to dismiss. He gets a lot of plaudits for that from fellow travelers of trollishness. Those revel in the attacks the trolls launch, and which Volokh defends. Volokh, who should certainly know better, shows no sign of discomfiture by the malign conduct which under a mis-transformed system of expressive freedom his advocacy supports and encourages.
Professor Volokh is a famous expert on expressive freedom, expressive conduct, and the legal system. It surpasses belief to suppose he is unaware that the legal foundation he references to support his advocacy is a relic of a bygone era. It is comparably baffling to suppose that he does not realize the larger significance expressed by the kind of liberty-averse support his advocacy attracts.
Can you specify the "meddling to distort ... history" you have in mind?
The phrase is very vague and almost reads like some politicsball-team code.
Which history, meddling how, by whom?
(I'm absolutely sure some people on "the right" have done/do that, but I legit have NO IDEA what specific things you're talking about.
Is it meddling? Is it counter-meddling as reaction to other meddling? Is it simply another worldview asking for representation*?
Could be any, and I can't guess from the description.
* "THEY are meddling, WE are trying to teach The Truth" is the degenerate case of that, and one seen far too often, without partisan preference. History is both an endless set of facts and a war of interpretations of those facts - and the interpretations are just that; interpretations, not facts-themselves.
History-as-narrative is open to debate, always, because narratives are not facts about the world, even if they're made of them.)
I think much of it has to do with objections to viewing American history in any unflattering light, especially wrt racial matters. That's what the CRT panic was about, after all.
I think the "CRT panic" is more about teaching that present day Americans bear some guilt for past events, and so forth. You know, all those practices that get listed in the 'anti-CRT' laws I quote here? They typically don't in any way prohibit teaching any history, after all.
"Objections to viewing American history in any unflattering light" would be more "Project 1619 panic", wouldn't it?
Not actually agreeing that these are really "panics", mind you. Just drawing the distinction.
(c) No individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, disability, or sex.
(d) Meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are not racist but fundamental to the right to pursue happiness and be rewarded for industry.
We talk about affirmative action and the flaws of the meritocracy all the time around here.
This law bans that.
You repeatedly deny what the text blatantly says.
Also, what YOU Say with your advocacy for the Bell Curve.
Someone on here was floating a talking point the other day that slavery had no racial component at all, it was just a big coincidence that the slavers were all white and the slaves were all black, and no one even noticed until CRT came along and made a big deal of it.
That kind of meddling with history.
You got a link? Because that sounds absurd.
Is it simply another worldview asking for representation*?
Not a mode which competent historical practice can accommodate.
"Is there a cogent reason to treat one different than the other?"
The second is just a reaction to the first. Stop the first, the second will stop too.
'But what if we find out they just like taking hostages?'
Do we really have supression on both ends? Because one side is passing laws and the other is one person making a dumb argument.
There seems to be a pretty unified opposition to Hamline here and generally.
And yet some keep diving harder and harder into cringey takes.
Do you think you can highlight which comments don't meet your approval and share with us how they fail your personal standards on morality and civics?
You leftists never seem to acknowledge that this type of thing is your sick ideology taken to its logical conclusion. This is not a perversion of modern progressivism, it is the embodiment of modern progressivism!
Is this you?
"This story is exactly why Islam doesn’t belong in the United States, and its adherents should be given a chance to leave or be executed. The First Amendment should be interpreted to exclude Islam."
So. . . is it now OK for me to now say, "This is not a perversion of modern conservativism, it is the embodiment of modern conservatism!"
It's OK for you to say it. You'd be wrong, but here we celebrate your right to say stupid stuff.
I'm not a conservative. I'm a neo-Pagan fascist.
At least we agree on something.
Say hi to Himmler and Odin.
No, you're a troll.
Both.jpg
If you think that guy is the only bigot among Volokh Conspiracy fans, you have a lot to learn.
You could just go with "I'm stupid" - it gets across the same point.
That's not even one of the weirder flavours of modern conservatism.
"There seems to be a pretty unified opposition to Hamline here and generally."
One would have seen that in comments to the NYT story this weekend
Good to know - I'll check them out; always down for an afternoon at the circus.
Academic twitter is pretty unified both legal and STEM.
One of these days, an actual adult in a university administration will rightfully tell a complaining student that they need to grow up and their claims of "harm" are meritless.
That will be the 'adult's' last day at work.
Especially at any campus controlled by conservatives -- Wheaton, for example.
One of the reasons that "blasphemy" fits into a somewhat different category than expletives is the impossibility of defining, in any limiting way, what the set of unacceptable words or images might include.
In theory, you could convene a panel to identify a relative handful of "expletives" that might be strongly discouraged in university instruction. Skipping over the well-covered ground of why you might NOT want to censor such expletives, at least the potential for defining them exists. "Blasphemy," however, is entirely malleable. Turn around, and there's another religious group claiming that some image or concept is "blasphemous." Establishing a limiting principle would require you to restrict the number of religions that "count," and appoint some official arbiter of what is "offensive" inside those religions -- a quicksand at best.
The Hamline Muslim Students Association defamed the adjunct. The adjunct should file a complaint for defamation against the Muslim Students Association or against the individual students that defamed her. Defamation is not speech protected by the 1st Amendment.
BTW, it was not hard to find the adjunct's name. It took all of three minutes. Her name is Erika López Prater. The Muslim Student Association defamed her in order to interfere with contract. FIRE or the ACLU should consider taking the case. Hamline might also be a defendant because it has not been shy in letting the information out.
Much like your theories about common carriers this is a non-recognized form of defamation by the courts.
HEY REV!
We're winnng!!!
Third of Americans have quit church as attendance fails to recover pre-pandemic numbers: survey
"Rather than completely upending established patterns, the pandemic accelerated ongoing trends in religious change," the researchers said.
A report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published in September found a skyrocketing number of Americans are leaving Christianity to become atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular."
The study predicted that if the number of Christians under 30 abandoning their faith accelerates beyond the current pace, adherents of the historically dominant religion of the U.S. could become a minority by 2045.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/third-americans-have-quit-church-attendance-fails-recover-pre-pandemic-numbers-survey
It not just the superstition that is fading in America . . . it also is the multifaceted bigotry.
Better Americans have won the culture war, which is not quite over but has been settled.
May the better ideas -- reason, modernity, science, progress, inclusiveness, freedom, education -- continue to win at the American marketplace of ideas!
HEY REV!
We’re winnng!!!
What is it you think you are winning?
Truth, objectivity and reason winning out over superstition, tribalism and grift.
Don't forget the bigotry. This is the slur-hurling Volokh Conspiracy, after all.
Agreed with EV that the Dean’s analogy to racial epithets was apt, though not in the way she meant. Once you cut off one set of material as taboo because a group objects to it, you can’t reject the demands of other groups without openly endorsing a hierarchy which can’t be justified on any principled basis. You’re going to have to treat all demands by all groups to expurgate material as equal.
The Volokh Conspiracy vanishes comments that disparages or pokes fun at conservatives.
It not only does not censor vile racial slurs; it publishes them just about every chance it gets.
"López"
You never know where a White Nationalist will come from!
I wonder if she was shocked to find out where she really fell on the woke scale? Treated like a middle aged white fundamentalist man.
Who are you talking to?
You can surely make a distinction between insults about who you are and insults about what you believe. (I use "insult" in the sense of injury received, not injury intentionally inflicted).
Also, I'm not the first person to note that it would be easy enough to concoct a belief system whereby free speech is part of fundamental doctrine hence denying free speech is offensive on religious grounds...let's see how the anti-free speech lot manage that one.
"Better, I think, to instead reaffirm a basic principle (which I think is supported by many people's negative reaction to Hamline University's firing of the instructor): American universities should be places where teachers and students studying a subject can discuss the subject's source material—even material that may offend some people for whatever reason—as it actually is, without expurgation."
I really don't see a good reason this basic principle shouldn't apply generally, rather than being restricted to universities.
Well, because universities are institutions where curiosity, investigation, and knowledge are pursued for their own sake. Everything's in scope.
There aren't many other contexts where this kind of thing -- potentially offensive source material -- comes up naturally. If you keep putting pictures of the prophet up at your workplace, claiming that you're simply trying to educate your peers about Islamic art history isn't going to fly.
NO. Just no. There's no offense where none is intended, period, the end. There's especially no offense where one warns one's audience in advance.
We must stop infantilizing conversation. We are adults. Adults deal with difficult topics. That's what it means to be an adult.
I refuse to give anyone the power to merely declare that I am "harming" them with my speech, regardless of my intent. That's mental.
Well said.
I always remember an argument I had with my mom when I was a kid (maybe 10 or 11) about whether words could hurt as much as physical violence. I thought they could. She said: “I’ll make you a deal. We’ll both sit at this table and you can call me all the worst names you can think of. But for every name you call me, I get to hit your thumb with a hammer. After one minute, we’ll see which one of us feels worse.” Point taken.
very smart mom you have
'There’s no offense where none is intended, period,'
There's a reason some people are called 'ignorant' in terms of their behaviour.
'I refuse to give anyone the power to merely declare that I am “harming” them with my speech, regardless of my intent.'
And those people often prefer to remain ignorant.
You are a case study in ignorance.
This isn't a matter of ignorance, on either side. Both sides know what they're up to.
The left long ago seized on the idea of controlling what other people could say by claiming that their demands were nothing more than the dictates of good manners. Nobody bought it then, and nobody buys it now.
Yeah, you're still mad that the people who it was socially acceptable to be rude to and about stood up for themselves.
The Irish?
Italians?
Ah I took many a lump. But 'twas all in good sport.
Brett...the right has manners as well.
I see them here all the time.
Prof. Somin offends people to the point of rage *regularly* with his support of open borders.
Prof. Kerr talked about unhoused persons, and offended someone.
Saying undocumented makes people rage.
Some dumbasses are pissed liberals call themselves liberal, because back in the day it meant something different.
People are still complaining
People being offended by sex ed. Or talking about structural racism in the classroom.
The right is offended all the time. Sometimes instrumentally, sometimes not.
That's just humans, not a conspiracy.
I don't think Somin has ever gotten me past mildly annoyed, actually.
"Some dumbasses are pissed liberals call themselves liberal, because back in the day it meant something different."
Actually that "old" meaning still abounds in political and historical literature. Just because it has a new flavor in American politics does not mean that people who don't like that new flavor "dumbasses."
For example, "liberal democracy" does not mean less progressive democracy than AOC advocates..
Language doesn't work like that, Don. Historical literature is not common parlance. It's idiotic attention-seeking to call yourself liberal so you get to explain every time what *real* liberal means.
Same with the idiots complaining those homosexuals have taken the word gay from us.
"Language doesn’t work like that, Don"
Oh actually it does once you peer out of your bubble. The language used by political scientists and historians remains what I have referred to. Moreover, Once one looks at the remainder of the English-speaking world, your American tribal parlance is just jingoistic.
I am sorry but I find your complaints about language "idiotic attention-seeking." Just let it be and get to the substance of a post.
I refuse to give anyone the power to merely declare that I am “harming” them with my speech, regardless of my intent.
Fair enough, but are you willing to listen to their explanation of why they feel harmed, regardless of your intent? Or is your intent all that matters?
Yes of course. And chances are I will be more than happy to phrase things differently. What I won't agree to, however, is treating the topic under discussion as somehow unmentionable or "harmful" on its face.
I say this because I have experienced actual, physical harm and i know the difference.
One Volokh defender has asked for links to examples of the proprietor's habitual usage of vile racial slurs.
It appears the reason.com website has compiled some of the links at the conclusion of these comments, under "RECOMMENDED."
Keep digging, guys.
Those recommendations have been changed, removing this and this and another example (this site won't accept another link) from the list.
I am confident Prof. Volokh is grateful for that, but it doesn’t erase the record, or make the habitual use of vile racial slurs any less deplorable or disgusting.
Carry on, clingers.
Hamline really did a disservice to the student who complained. By validating the student’s grievance, the school failed to teach the student a valuable lesson about tolerance, free speech, empathy and humility. And by terminating this adjunct, the school has propelled this student on the national stage, and her name will be forever connected with this incident—this cannot be good for future employment etc.
Crystal Clanton and more than one conservative judge scoff at that assertion.