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A Compelling Summary of the Case Against Nationalism
Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute provides what may be the best short summary of the evils of nationalism.
In my last post, I highlighted Cato Institute scholar Alex Nowrasteh's excellent critique of claims that immigration causes harm by reducing social trust. Rarely do I devote two posts in a row to writings by the same person. But I could not pass up his compelling summary of the evils of nationalism, drawn from his opening statement in a recent debate with Rich Lowry of National Review.
Nationalism is a major force in both the US and around the world, and the major point of divergence between libertarians and the "New Right." I tried my own hand at summarizing the dangers of nationalism back in 2009, including some of the parallels between it and communism. But, frankly, Nowrasteh's piece is way better.
"Nationalism," like "conservatism," and "liberalism," is a fuzzy term that different people use in different ways. But Nowrasteh captures the main focus of most nationalist movements and thinkers, when he describes it as an ideology based on loyalty to a "nation" based on a "group of genetically similar individuals with a common language, culture, religion, and ethnicity." As he explains, "[n]ationalism is to the right wing what communism is to the left wing, poorly reasoned utopianism that often leads to some of the worst crimes against humanity."
Here are some excerpts from his summary of its dangers, with commentary by me:
The first downside of nationalism is that it increases centralized state power. In nationalism, the state representing a nation (known as a nation-state) is the only organization that counts because it represents the entire nation. Individualism is not important, individual rights don't matter, and a nation's government does and should determine everything regardless of the desires of dissenters….
Nationalist movements do indeed have a long history of suppressing dissent and undermining liberal democracy. The ethnic and cultural homogeneity nationalists seek is usually impossible to achieve without it.
The second effect of nationalism is that it tends to concentrate state power in a single person, the leader. Nationalists often conflate the nation with that of an individual political leader who is a nationalist, frequently a strong man, sometimes a dictator, and other times a king, probably because the nation is just an abstraction that requires a totem of some kind to be real in the minds of men….
Nationalism isn't the only political ideology that tends to promote strongmen. But it has a particularly powerful tendency towards leader-worship. Recall such figures as Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. In our own day, we have examples like Putin, Erdogan, and Xi Jinping, among others. Even nationalist movements in liberal-democratic nations have a tendency to do this. Consider, for example, the worship of Donald Trump by his core supporters, which exceeds that of any other modern US president. The kinds of people who become nationalist strongmen tend to be unscrupulous, ruthless and cruel. Thus, not only does nationalism concentrate power. It often does so in worst possible hands.
The third common effect of nationalism is more state control over the economy. After all, the nation knows best and its government will do whatever it thinks is in the national interest (or, more accurately, whatever is in the best interests of nationalist politicians). It's no mistake that National Conservatives, as they call themselves today in the United States, favor industrial policy, protectionism, high taxes, closed borders, pro-union policies, a large welfare state, praise the New Deal, and desire more state control over the economy. Increasing state control over the economy is partly ideological and partly just a byproduct of the increasingly centralized state that nationalists demand.
Very true. I would add that the types of statist economic policies nationalists advocate tend to be among the most harmful, condemned by most economists across the political spectrum. In addition, this concentration of economic power becomes even more dangerous when combined with nationalists' disdain for individual rights and elevation of brutal strongmen leaders.
The fourth effect of nationalism is more government control over the private lives of citizens and central planning of culture. From the French Revolution originating the term "nation building" in France and their central planning of language to Vladimir Putin in Russia and dozens of nationalist leaders in between, they all use the state to force their preferred version of a centrally planned culture on society….
The fifth effect of nationalism is the glorification of militarism, war, and lesser hostility between nations through trade wars and tearing up arms control treaties for no good reason. Judged by the number of deaths caused by different types of governments in the 20th century, just focusing on governments murdering their own citizens, nationalism is second only to communism….
We see nationalist wars most vividly today in Russia's attempt to conquer Ukraine as part of a nationalist irredentism to reconstitute the Russian Empire by bringing the QUOTE "fake ethnicity of Ukrainians" back into the Russian fold. It's no mistake that so many nationalists around the world admired Putin prior to his invasion, such as Dutch nationalist Thierry Baudet, French nationalist Marine Le Pen, Italian nationalist and Prime Minister Georgia Meloni and former Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi (who still defends Putin after the invasion), and many American National Conservatives, as they call themselves. Some American National Conservatives, or NatCons, slobbered over Putin (in part) because his military recruitment advertisements showed Russians as manly….
The sixth common effect of nationalism is ethnic chauvinism and, to a disturbingly frequent extent, genocide. Slaughters in Nationalist Turkey, mass death in Nationalist China, and two world wars were caused by nationalists with revanchist dreams. Historian Aristide Zolberg went as far as to call the formation of new nation-states "as a refugee-generating process" to expel groups of people who are not members of the new nation. Not every nationalist government commits genocide or engages in ethnic chauvinism, but not every communist regime causes a great famine either. We shouldn't give nationalists a pass any more than we should give communists a pass…
All well-taken points.
But won't nationalism at least give us a warm sense of national unity, overcoming our divisions? Not so much:
Did you feel better and more connected to other American strangers when Donald Trump, who embraced nationalism, was president? Did Trump cause American solidarity to increase? Just the opposite. Nationalism is a schismatic ideology that pulls citizens apart from one another instead of binding them together. Meaning and belonging come from family, friendships, real communities of people who know each other, worship in groups of people who know each other, hobbies, career, and other personal human relationships, not from devotion to a national abstraction….
In an ideologically founded country like the U.S., nationalism is a disuniting force and not a uniting one. Nationalism here builds walls around different groups and defines political opponents or other groups as less American than others. Nationalism is an exclusionary ideology, not an inclusive one. Nationalism often defines a country in terms of what it's not – usually foreigners. But that frame is easily applied to defining fellow American citizens as not real Americans either. Claremont senior fellow Glenn Ellmers, an American nationalist and writer at a nationalist publication, wrote in 2021 that the 80 million Americans who voted for President Joe Biden in 2020 were "not Americans in any meaningful sense of the term…." These nationalists believe that half of American voters have betrayed the nation. They obviously don't care about building national solidarity. If they wanted to build national solidarity and harness good feelings for national greatness, they would be trying to bring the country together instead of trying to label half of their fellow countrymen as non-Americans or un-American. Where is this benign and uniting nationalism that Rich [Lowry] speaks of? Certainly not in the minds or on the lips of nationalists.
Particularly, in a society as diverse as the United States, nationalist ideology is a source of division and mutual hatred, not unity. The divisive nature of nationalism isn't unique to Trump or his particular political movement. It's an inherent feature of nationalist ideology, more generally. If you believe that the nation rests on a common ethnicity, culture, language, and so on, then there is a natural tendency to demonize those who don't fit that description. Even if it doesn't go as far as ethnic cleansing or genocide, that tendency is necessarily divisive.
In his commentary on the debate with Lowry, Nowrasteh does note a possible virtue of nationalism. Sometimes, its origin is "reactive" in nature - a response to racial or ethnically based oppression:
When certain ethnic or religious groups are persecuted, a common reaction of those persecuted is the strengthening or creation of nationalism for psychological and defensive reasons. Individuals are very easily persecuted, but individuals in a large group who defensively cooperate, have solidarity, and aid each other are harder to oppress. Zionism, for instance, grew rapidly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as anti-Semitism, pogroms, and state oppression of Jews were widespread in Europe. Persecuted groups can even form a new ethnic identity in response to persistent persecution.
Zionism is just one of many "reactive" nationalist movements. Other cases include Polish and Irish nationalism, and various nationalist movements in developing countries, that arose in part as a reaction to European colonialism. Ukrainian nationalism, of course, is in large part a product of centuries of oppression by successive Russian and Soviet rulers. Here in the US, black nationalist movements arose as a reaction to centuries of oppression and discrimination at the hands of whites.
But even reactive nationalism often becomes a force for evil. Time and again, the nationalist movements of oppressed groups have themselves become oppressors when when they seize power. Obvious examples include various Eastern European nationalists, the nationalist governments of numerous post-colonial nations, and others. All too often reactive nationalists replicate the same type of evil they set out to oppose.
Moreover, reactive nationalism is far from the only way to fight ethnic and racial oppression. A better approach is to appeal to universal principles of liberty and justice. This strategy is no Utopian pie in the sky. It's how the abolition of slavery and Jim Crow segregation were achieved, and how much other oppression was curtailed around the world. Those who think people will never fight and die for universalist liberalism should remember the sacrifices made to win the American Revolution (fought for those very principles), the many lives lost to end slavery, and numerous other examples.
Abjuring reactive nationalism in favor of universal liberal principles is far from a new idea. The great African-American abolitionist Frederick Douglass advanced it back in the 19th century:
We hear, since emancipation, much said by our modern colored leaders in commendation of race pride, race love, race effort, race superiority, race men, and the like…. In all this talk of race, the motive may be good, but the method is bad. It is an effort to cast out Satan by Beelzebub…..
The evils which are now crushing the negro to earth have their root and sap, their force and mainspring, in this narrow spirit of race and color, and the negro has no more right to excuse and foster it than have men of any other race….
Hence, at the risk of being deficient in the quality of love and loyalty to race and color, I confess that in my advocacy of the colored man's cause, whether in the name of education or freedom, I have had more to say of manhood and of what is comprehended in manhood and in womanhood, than of the mere accident of race and color; and, if this is disloyalty to race and color, I am guilty….
In Douglass's time, the word "race" referred not just to skin color, but to what we today call "ethnicity." Thus, his condemnation was not limited solely to nationalistic movements based on skin color. If a man who personally experienced the horrors of racially based slavery could grasp the wrongness of reactive nationalism, we should be able to, as well.
Reactive nationalism also is likely to bring down a counter-reaction by stimulating nationalism among other groups. As Douglass warned, "[d]o we not know that every argument we make, and every pretension we set up in favor of race pride, is giving the enemy a stick to break our own heads?… We cannot afford to draw the color-line in politics, trade, education, manners, religion, fashion, or civilization. Especially we cannot afford to draw the color-line in politics." What is true of racial color lines also applies to ethnic divisions.
There may be times and places where some kind of reactive nationalism is the only politically feasible alternative to an even greater evil. Choosing between greater and lesser evils may be the only options we have. But we should at least remember that the lesser evil is still evil and should be dispensed with at the first available opportunity.
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In the spirit of the season. Bah, humbug!
If nationalism were so bad, the blog would be in German or Japanese.
Fortunately, it was Britain's finest hour.
Indeed.
As is classic to many of Somin's arguments, he fails to take the proper history or alternatives into account.
Nationalism is the concept that the people and state should be congruent. That a people, defined as having a common culture within a geographic area, should be self-determinate and promote its own interests.
The alternative to nationalism is cosmopolitanism. Broadly speaking, this is the theoretical concept that we are all "global citizens". However, in practice, what this really is, is the concept of Empire. Where you have a central area or region, broadly ruling a variety of cultures and people across the globe. These peoples are not self-determinate in their rule, but subservient to the central area. Arguably they are "all citizens" of the empire, but in practice, the outlying areas (especially which contain minority populations) are abused, neglected, and discriminated against, to the advantage of the central ruling region/capital.
Empires have been present throughout history. From Rome, to the Ottoman Empire, to the British Empire, where a central region ruled over a disperse variety of cultures. And there are severe issues with empires. The previously mentioned abuse, neglect, and discrimination are primary among them (And nationalism was the logical response, that gave these areas self determination). In addition, Empire has significant issues of corruption, regulatory capture, nepotism, and ultimately stagnation.
So, when Somin argues against Nationalism, he is in essence arguing for a cosmopolitian Empire, and the inherent corruption and stagnation that occurs with it.
Rootless cosmopolitans versus chad nationalists.
He defines his terms above. You use different terms, and the argue against the strawman you set up.
I’m not sure I think his terms are what I would call nationalism, but argue with the OP that’s written, not the one in your head.
LOLl... Strawmen? Really?
Here are some common definitions of Nationalism.
Merriam Webster:
" loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups"
Dictionary.com
". a sentiment based on common cultural characteristics that binds a population and often produces a policy of national independence or separatism. loyalty or devotion to one's country; patriotism."
Wikipedia.
"Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state.[1][2] As a movement, nationalism tends to promote the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[3] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland to create a nation-state. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity"
(What I said)
"Nationalism is the concept that the people and state should be congruent. That a people, defined as having a common culture within a geographic area, should be self-determinate and promote its own interests."
And of course what Somin wrote....
"But Nowrasteh captures the main focus of most nationalist movements and thinkers, when he describes it as an ideology based on loyalty to a "nation" based on a "group of genetically similar individuals with a common language, culture, religion, and ethnicity." As he explains, "[n]ationalism is to the right wing what communism is to the left wing, poorly reasoned utopianism that often leads to some of the worst crimes against humanity.""
There's a strawman here....and it's Somin's definition of nationalism. "A poorly reasoned utopianism".
Start by using a common definition....
As I said in my last line above, I’m not saying his definition is right. I agree with Bernard below.
But nevertheless you are arguing with a strawman, idiosyncratic definition or no.
And your cosmopolitan thing has echoes of European antisemitism.I don’t count that among my issue with you, but that is what that phrase brings up to anyone who has studied the history of Europe in the first half of the 20th Century.
Ah yes... The examples of the Roman, Ottoman, and British empires, as examples of cosmopolitianism in action.... Notable examples of anti-semitism
Seriously. It's like you're a joke. Meanwhile ACTUAL antisemitism like Affleck's below, you don't respond to at all.
It is and has been the nature of humans to be tribal and “nationalism” is just that on a larger scale and I don’t mean tribal with the negative connotation usually associated with it as being against all others but rather in having common culture that they believe works for them.
We were hunter gatherers for ages – that’s in our nature as well. Humans are cool because we can set up ways to rise above.
I think those whole conversation is more applesauce than argument, but you need to do better than appealing to surrendering yo human nature.
How people provided for the necessity for food is not the same as human nature. The things we do may have changed but not so much the reasons that we do them.
Same argument works for world government.
Try again.
Provide a reason to not be the "world's policeman" that does not involve "nationalism".
Nationalism is worrying about your country, not the world. The other option is globalism, which has shown itself to be hardly reliable the last few years.
That's (a) not what nationalism means; and (b) not practical. The U.S. is part of the world. The U.S. tried isolationism; it did not prevent things around the world from affecting the U.S.
I have that guy blocked.
Sounds tribal in the negative sense.
He defines his terms above.
He already has a conclusion and created definitions to support the conclusion.
The United States was just that. States formaly created a govt to do what the States could not. States were people of common culture, with defined borders. The People and the States were sovereign. The federal govt had limited enumerated powers. But you lawyers have reasoned all the limits of power out of the Constitution.
Trump was not divisive. People like Somin were/are. What is Somin's solution for our IC being the 4th branch of govt with no checks on their power, and no accountability. All their actions get "defined" as National security interest and any questions are no ones business. I would think Somin would worry more about the IC than nationalism. After all, it is the IC that spied on the political campaign, transition, and administration of the Presidency.
The Jan6 committee is a partisan clown show, and MAL is is nothing but a documents dispute, but true to form it was sold as a National security investigation. And the Lawyers here are just fine with that
Trump governed explicitly against cities, Muslims, and the media.
You disagreeing with Somin doesn’t make him divisive.
Two out of three are utterly false and the third is deserved and should be the default of all government entities.
When the government works WITH the media, it's called propaganda. Not information nor news.
Trumps travel policy was exactly as Obama used. Nations whose govt lacked the ability screen the visa applicants. Yes nations that were heavily Muslim fit that description. Just like when Obama did it.,
I can think of no govt action Trump took against cities. In Fact he offered Federal help to Chicago to address gang killings. But Lightfoot refused to even talk.
The media was lying constantly. We all know how the media was the mouth piece for the Democrat Party. President Trump just exposed the media propaganda for what it was.
So, define nationalism as a malign political philosophy and then criticizing it for being a malign political philosophy. Nice. How about: Nationalism, the prioritization of national interests and the interests of the citizens of a nation over international and globalist interests?
"But Nowrasteh captures the main focus of most nationalist movements and thinkers, when he describes it as an ideology based on loyalty to a "nation" based on a "group of genetically similar individuals with a common language, culture, religion, and ethnicity.""
How does this cover nationalist movements in the Americas or much of the Middle East?
Similarly, when you look at tribal conflicts in Africa (Hutu v Tutsi, Yoruba v Ibo etc), the nation state is tangential to the underlying conflict. Yet the malign characteristics closely parallel the purported evils of "nationalism."
Nationalism is defined by a continuity from the most extreme form of organic nationalism, which is Zionism, to the most extreme form of voluntary nationalism, which is theoretical Americanism.
Zionism is the most extreme organic nationalism because it postulates that white racial supremacist European Jews, whose only connection to Palestine is a garbled false religious fairy tale that asserts European Jews descend from Greco-Roman Judeans,
---
Theoretical Americanism is the most extreme voluntary nationalism because it postulates that anyone can
Mmm. Christmas Antisemitism.
When you define anti-Zionism to be antisemitism, suddenly there are a lot of antisemites.
Not even Bernstein does that (anymore).
When you pretend that antisemitism is anti-Zionism, you ignore a lot of antisemitism. Martillo is a raging antisemite, not merely an anti-Zionist. (A good clue is when one argues that European Jews weren't actually persecuted, and also that they were deservedly persecuted. (Consistency is not a big thing with loons.))
Well, he doesn't argue that in this post. Anyway, isn't he Jewish? For some reason I thought he was. It's possible to be a Jewish antisemite but you'd have to try pretty hard.
I am Jewish. I studied at Brisk and used to learn gemara with the Talner Rebbe. I used to be ultra-orthodox, but I had an epiphany because I was outside the Mosque of Abraham when Baruch Goldstein celebrated Purim by spree murdering worshipers.
I realized that Zionist anti-Jews had murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide.
A Zionist anti-Jew screeches a vacuous charge of antisemitism whenever anyone points out that Zionist colonial settler anti-Jews committed genocide against Palestinians from Dec 1947 through 1949 in order to create the Zionist state. This genocide will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country.
European Jews are descendants of non-Judean converts to Judaism just as European Christians are descendants of non-Judean converts to Christianity even though Christianity started in Judea.
A Zionist colonial settler in stolen Palestine is a depraved racial supremacist murderous genocidal invader, interloper, thief, and impostor, who deserves hatred, scorn, and loathing from the entire human race.
On the day before Christmas, it is important to remember that Jesus was a brown Palestinian (technically a Galilean) and practiced Biblical Judaism, a religion that has much more in common with Orthodox Christianity or with Islam than with Rabbinic Judaism, which is a Mesopotamian religion that does not crystallize until about a millennium after the time of Jesus.
Zionism is probably the most outrageous fraud in the history of the human race.
He currently claims to be, but he has been on the Internet for 30 years and has come up with all sorts of different biographies in that time.
Zionists have been writing all sorts of nonsense about me for 30 years. When they have not made up stuff about me, they have spoofed me.
I have always been amazed that all these Zionist doxxers have never over the last 30 years managed correctly to identify me or my family, but to tell the truth, I prefer Zionist ignorance.
When you only have strawman arguments….
Rather than distance ourselves from the term I'd say we need to seize it back. There is nothing wrong with holding a belief that you want the best for your country and for everyone, regardless of background, color, sex, etc to prosper, and for our government to pursue policies that place our prosperity both as a nation as a whole and as individuals at the forefront.
That is the working definition of nationalism I tend to use.
I'd hate to see us reach a point like in much of Western Europe where patriotism has become a dirty word.
This...
Why do nationalists and anti-nationalists get to define what nationalism is?
It's OK to be proud of our nation AND criticize it at the same time - and also work to 'progressively' make it better.
Criticism is a necessary component of improvement. I see nothing wrong with people of good will and strong opinions to argue and strongly disagree about the best way to move forward, in fact I am deeply disturbed by attempts to limit debate to a narrow set of ideas to the exclusion of all others. No good can come from that kind of hive mind approach and in the end we all suffer when certain ideas are not fully explored and subjected to open debate and criticism.
With the understand that not all ideas are worthy of debate.
They are worthy of debate but not necessarily acceptance.
I don't think I've ever learned a damn thing listening to someone I agreed with.
Everything is worthy of debate, it’s just that some ideas are more easily rejected than others and even in rejected ideas there is always something to be learned.
… he says as his friends tear down historical monuments and jeer anything even remotely patriotic.
Tearing down monuments to traitors who tried to create a different county based on ideals that are the opposite of the ones the country purports to stand for is the most nationalist and patriotic thing there is?
Unless by “nation” you don’t mean the “state” or the “nation state” but instead mean the “nation” as an ethnically defined group.
You and the Taliban agree on tearing down monuments.
K. But you didn’t dispute what I said. Also there is a huge difference between blowing up UNESCO sites and tearing down statutes to slavers made of cheap material in the last century to bolster a white supremacist historiographical project. If you can’t see the difference you’re being willfully obtuse.
Who cares what vandals say?
It’s not vandalism if a community decides they don’t want to continue to give a prominent public memorial to traitors who betrayed their country in defense of a system of racially based chattel slavery.
I mean that’s what you’re defending. Just admit it. Stop with the “it’s history” bullshit.
Openly admit that you would like to honor in perpetuity people who killed Americans so they could own black people. You’ll feel much better by just admitting that, I promise.
compare:
How Orwellian...
It’s not vandalism if the town or state or private organization decides to remove the monument on their land because they don’t want to honor shitty people anymore.
Also if there’s one thing George Orwell would support it is continuing devotion to people who fought a war to preserve slavery and pretended it was about freedom.
Why are statues of Washington, Jefferson, Christopher Columbus etc being torn down?
People who embrace monuments to bigots, traitors, and losers deserve nothing but scorn and replacement.
Now explain your support for tearing down statues of our Founding Fathers.
I was referring to the Confederate traitors, bigots, and losers that Republicans and conservatives seem to revere.
Carry on, clingers. But, as those who are ridding our public spaces of monuments to traitors, bigots, and losers are demonstrating, only so far and so long as better Americans permit.
George Washington only missed out on being a "Confederate Traitor" by being born in 1732, of course his being featured on the Seal of the Confederate States of Amurica would result in his "Cancellation" nows a days.
Speaking of Bigots, tell me again why Barry Hussein went (and spoke Glowingly of the D-ceased) to Robert KKK Bird's funeral??
Disappointed Jerry, no news of your Commutation, did you do something to get put in "the Hole"???
Get it? "Put in the Hole"???? if there's something Jerry S. knows about, it's putting things in holes
Frank
Ah, but you raise the key issue there: you picked a new word.
The thing is that in common English parlance, we frequently use the terms country and nation interchangeably. So you hear nationalism = love of nation = love of country = patriotism. And who is against patriotism?
But nationalists (and political scientists) don't use those words interchangeably. The "nation" that they identify and promote is not the country; it is more like an ethnic group. That's why you can have "white nationalism" and "black nationalism" and, e.g., "Kurdish nationalism," even though none of those are countries, while the phrase "white patriotism" doesn't make sense.
I agree with the critics above.
Nowrasteh captures the main focus of most nationalist movements and thinkers, when he describes it as an ideology based on loyalty to a "nation" based on a "group of genetically similar individuals with a common language, culture, religion, and ethnicity."
Sure, that's terrible ideology. I don't need a lengthy article to tell me that, and neither does anyone else. But the definition seems tailored to let him go into a tirade, rather than to enable any sort of serious discussion.
Same here. It seems pretty easy to erect a strawman you can’t help but vilify and then proceed to knock it down.
It seems to me a greater challenge would be to learn to take the small bits of good from otherwise reprehensible, evil systems.
I’ll use Nazi Germany as an example. Despite being one of the most vicious, brutal, and evil regimes in human history, they had a revolutionary idea about how to build an efficient highway system that has spread to much of the world.
My point is wide, blanket condemnations are usually too broad to give proper insight.
https://twitter.com/dril/status/831805955402776576?lang=en
I tend to be rather agnostic as to where I get my ideas from and tend to evaluate based on merit, not source.
https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?s=46&t=_ArTiG_ezBCaRyJyUkAYOw
Not sure of the relevance, and merely pronouncing something as so does not make it true. That would be like saying Newton was a terrible person so therefore I reject the Law of Gravity. Facts and ideas exist totally independently of who conceived them.
The classical form of that observation is that "Mussolini made the trains run on time". Hope this helps.
Yes, I thought of that one, thought my example was a bit more specific.
I suppose another would be Von Braun's V2 was instrumental in getting to the moon.
Our Germans were better than the Roosh-uns Germans.
"The idea for the construction of the autobahn was first conceived in the mid-1920s during the days of the Weimar Republic, but the construction was slow, and most projected sections did not progress much beyond the planning stage due to economic problems and a lack of political support." - WIKI.
And Mussolini didn't actually make the trains run on time. Anyone who thinks the Nazis ran an efficient or effective government, or imaginative, needs to read more history.
Oh I think the Nazi's ran a very efficient government, it just happened to be incredibly efficient at achieving very evil ends.
Same with the Japs, funny how they made such great portable radios.
Despite being one of the most vicious, brutal, and evil regimes in human history, they had a revolutionary idea about how to build an efficient highway system that has spread to much of the world.
First, it is actually possible to build highways without using forced labor, as the Nazis did, conscripts initially and then,
During World War II, many of Germany's workers were required for various war production tasks. Construction work on the autobahn system therefore increasingly relied on forced workers and concentration camp inmates, and working conditions were very poor.
So no, the construction of the Autobahn is not something we should admire.
A better example might be the therapies for hypothermia which were developed using data from human experimentation performed by Sigmund Rascher on the prisoners at Dachau. It was many decades before researchers could use that data but today many people who fall into frozen lakes and rivers owe their lives to those therapies. I’m sure that they don’t explain the history to the survivors.
Yeah I saw the photos of those experiments when we visited Dachau. Simply awful.
They built a highway system to move troops and equipment around without needing the trains as much.
It's all about moving military equipment. Train scheduling is fussy and subject to trivial breakdowns bogging things up for hours or days, a potential disaster when there is a war on.
Mussolini bragged about getting the trains to run on time. Hint: It wasn't so people could get to work.
Hitler and the above bragged about the highway system. That was for troops and equipment to avoid train issues. But it was expensive, so create the VW Beetle and pretend it's for The Volk.
US makes an interstate system similarly. It is also about shipping, not you skipping a train ride.
Laws against rape totally empower government and police you guys! And enforcing those anti-rape laws against minorities — that’s totally racist!
These are awesome arguments. I’m a scholar, lol.
Its CATOtown jack.
Sounds like your typical Reason.com post.
"[n]ationalism is to the right wing what communism is to the left wing, poorly reasoned utopianism that often leads to some of the worst crimes against humanity."
Huh?
Tribalism (which is really what he is talking about, while using the word "nationalism") is the natural order of humanity.
The poorly reasoned utopianism is the notion that bureaucrats can eliminate tribalism with a stroke of a pen. Just look at the EU.
And yet, all of that European nationalism/tribalism (they're essentially the same thing) is vestigial in the United States. (Not to mention that the EU still does a pretty good job. Its project isn't complete, obviously, but you don't see a lot of threats of war within the EU.)
Western Europe is going on 80 years of not having wars or threats of wars due to bureaucratic integration. Given the history of that region of the world, this is a remarkably successful project!
Nice rose colored glasses you have there. Got enough for everyone?
Which wars or threats of war have happened in Western Europe since 1945?
Among the countries of Western Europe.
Well Kosovo comes to mind and as for the threat of war it never stopped after our "allies" (that would be Mother Russia as the USSR) took over about a third of Europe.
Does it come to the mind of someone who has looked at a map?
Was the USSR, or Russia, part of the EU?
It was and is part of Europe. The EU has only existed for about 30 years so giving it credit for 80 years of peace is an exaggeration.
The lack of wars since 1945 had more to do with the destruction from to continent wide wars in the span of 30 years. The deaths of 10s of millions, both military and civilian and the destruction of infrastructure and the economy pretty much precluded a major war.
The EEC was founded in 1957. So we’re still talking about 65 years of European integration benefiting Europe.
Not bad for an organization Pat Robertson said was the Anti-Christ
Kosovo is famously in Western Europe, that’s correct.
But snark aside Western European policy to Serbia/Kosovo has been pretty united and it isn’t used as proxy for other battles or contribute to rising tensions. While Spain doesn’t recognize Kosovo due to concerns it’ll inspire/set precedent for Basque or Catalonian separatists, it’s also not being antagonist to Europe as a whole due to this position
For better or worse, Europe's almost constant warfare since the fall of Rome gave us the world we have today. The current respite is welcome but I doubt the EU (dominated by Germany) has much to do with it.
In any event, I have to much to do today so I'll wish you a Merry Christmas and be gone.
The US stands there with it's big paw firmly planted on Western Europe's shoulder. I would like to think the individual nations are stable, but the previous 50 years demonstrated amply no such thing.
"Western Europe is going on 80 years of not having wars or threats of wars due to bureaucratic integration. "
No, the US "occupation" of Europe since 1945 has kept the peace, not EU bureaucrats.
Debatable. The US obviously has supported and encouraged European integration. But the peace is also possible because they actually work out their problems through the EU. Indeed the continental Europeans didn’t like it during the four years the US was antagonistic to NATO and the EU! Trumpism was pro-Brexit anti-EU (for god knows what dumb reason), but Europe was still pro EU.
The poorly reasoned utopianism is the notion that bureaucrats can eliminate tribalism with a stroke of a pen. Just look at the EU.
Huh? The EU looks pretty successful to me. WWII ended seventy-seven years ago, seventy-four years after the end of the Franco-Prussian War.
If you told someone in 1943 that in 80 years the French and Germans would routinely cooperate for
their common good by meeting in Strasbourg along with most of the rest of Europe you’d sound insane. But that’s exactly what happened.
Why would they be surprised? A century before that, you had the French and English at each other's throats. By 1914, they were best friends.
Things change.
Things change.
It’s not magic. It’s just doesn’t happen randomly. It changed because Western Europeans wanted it to change through institutions like the EU.
No....it happens because the balance of world powers changed.
There's a reason Western Europe didn't get into wars after WWII. It's called the big, bad, Soviet Union. A common enemy. It's the same reason France and England became best buds in 1914. A Common enemy (albeit a different one).
I like how you think the balance of world power is unrelated to institutions like the EU.
You haven't been paying much attention to Ukraine I guess.
If that was the case why didn’t the EEC dissolve after 1991 and in fact turned into the EU and expanded?
Even without the EU, the superpower with the nukes and troops parked on their land would probably look askance at any internecine warfare.
Could be, but we know, as opposed to some counterfactual, tells us that the EU has certainly not been a mistake or bureaucratic blunder.
And even if what you say is true, isn't what happened preferable to having conflicts that the US has to intervene in to keep the peace?
I don't think it's counterfactual to say the U. S. has lots of nukes and troops in Europe, and that this may have curbed Western Europe's blowing-each-other-up propensities.
Now, to see how much of this peace can be attributed to European institutions, see if the UK goes to war with the rest. They basically seceded from the European Project, didn't they? Better keep an eye on them.
Sure. The lack of straight up war is definitely in part attributable to US presence. But the level of cooperation among Europeans is also above and beyond simply refraining from war.
The EU is like the early days of the US, very limited. But all government, which is to say, all the power hungry who go into government, which is to say, all elected officials, seek to increase their power.
Hence any new government immediately strains its design chains. I pointed this out a long time ago, that European nations would become more and more anachonistic, like US states, with the new federal government becoming the 600 lb. tail wagging the dog.
Observation of past similar situations noted. Hypothesis formed. Experiment in progress.
"Nowrasteh's is way better"
Since Nowrasteh's rant is filled with poor reasoning and shallow thinking think how bad Somin's writing was!
Let's use the Stoics' concentric circles - family, city, state, country, then the human race in general.
The better we are at our local and regional loyalties, the better we can be at showing national loyalty. The better an idea we have of ourselves as Americans, the better able we'll be to sympathize with humanity-in-general.
Or we could skip the intermediate steps, proclaim loyalty to humanity-in-general, ignore local and national connections, and see where our so-called love of humanity takes us...and the world.
"National Conservatives, as they call themselves today in the United States, favor industrial policy, protectionism, high taxes, closed borders, pro-union policies, a large welfare state, praise the New Deal, and desire more state control over the economy."
Most of this [except protectionism, closed borders] is not true or very much overstated. Pro-worker is not pro-union for example.
I’ve never heard of "National Conservatives".
That’s pretty impressive actually. I mean I don’t know how you would frequent right wing news sites and believe in right wing politics and NOT hear about it.
Strawmen don’t post on web sites, alas.
Okay. You can say Somin and Nowrasteh are going after a strawman version of national conservatism. But national conservatives definitely exist and many prominent Republican politicians and thinkers have explicitly embraced the label. So the fact you never heard of it is remarkable.
https://nationalconservatism.org/natcon-3-2022/speakers/
Quite a rogues' gallery there.
Yeah people like Marco Rubio are perfectly described by "favor industrial policy, protectionism, high taxes, closed borders, pro-union policies, a large welfare state, praise the New Deal, and desire more state control over the economy."
You guys most definitely are accurately describing something!
That’s a web site for a conference, not a party or group. A search for "National Conservatives" on that page shows that phrase is never used.
"National" is an adjective to say that the conference is not local nor global, but America-wide in scope.
You are extremely bad at this.
And yet, no references to anyone called "national conservatives" anywhere.
Maybe such people exist and I’ve just never heard of them.
If you subscribe to a philosophy of national conservatism that makes you a national conservative. Do you seriously not understand something so basic?
Does it? That’s an opinion I guess.
I still have never heard of anyone calling themselves that.
Can you find me a conservative, national or otherwise, that wants the things I put in bold from your definition?
Ben,
Yes. Just like if you believe in socialism you’d be called a socialist.
BCD,
That’s the OPs description it may or may not be accurate. But national conservatism does exist as a movement that is embraced by right wing politicians. It’s so painfully obvious that this is true that I have no clue why you’re debating it.
No quotes with the words "national conservative" then.
Were you that dumb kid who was told to stop throwing stones kept doing it and said “you didn’t say I couldn’t throw rocks.”
Just a willful misunderstanding of how language works.
He was quoting from the article.
That's the definition for the context of all these discussions.
He's mad at some strawman Lefty and blaming the Right.
Ben, search on the document title "National Conservatism: A Statement of Principles" from the Edmund Burke Society. Primary authors are Will Chamberlain, Christopher DeMuth, Rod Dreher, Yoram Hazony, Daniel McCarthy, Joshua Mitchell, N.S. Lyons, John O’Sullivan, and R.R. Reno. Anyone you know?
Also make sure to check out the list of signatories. You'll likely recognize many of the names, leaning to statist authoritarian theocrats of various religions. Note how many have recently expressed a desire to shift America from the principles of representative democracy—that is, our Democratic Republic)—to those of an Authoritarian Theocratic Police State. (I'm surprised they didn't get Bill Barr to sign, as his career-long quest has been toward the same ends. But he probably feels understands he's already gotten too much attention this year so doesn't want to draw more.)
They seem to understand that if others believe them, they’ll have no chance. So, they obfuscate their efforts promoting an Orbán-like framework of compliant state-controlled media and subversion of free and fair elections (notice how many have recently been in Hungary, studiously taking notes), while waiting for Trumpism to construct that framework for them. In the meanwhile, they spend their time writing whinging fascism-lite Nationalist manifestos.
As to the discussion on economic principles, See
It really does surprise me you've never heard of all this.
Here's a thought experiment:
1. Abolish the United States and with it its frayed but still pro-liberty Constitution.
2. Subsume the U.S. into the UN, with all of its anti-libertarian, anti-white, anti-U.S. members having equal votes.
3. You fill in the rest.
I'm thinking: something along the lines of what'd happen if those "evil nationalists" in Israel opened their borders to their friendly neighbors.
Anti-nationalism cuts both ways. Without nationalism there would be no reason for the Ukraine to be a separate country at all.
Exactly. Ukraine is fighting as fiercely as it is in no small part because of nationalism, and because identities are not as malleable as both Putin and Professor Somin would like for their different purposes.
Well, no, not at all. That's what Putin mistakenly believed, which is one reason he thought Ukraine would be such easy pickings. He thought that the Russian nation within Ukraine would welcome him with open arms, or would at least not oppose him. But it turns out that most ethnically-Russian Ukrainians are patriots, not nationalists.
It also helps that the people in Ukraine weren't fed a steady diet of nothing but pro-Russia/Putin propaganda. Thus, they were rightly skeptical that their lives would actually be better under a puppet regime that Putin would put up so that Ukraine could serve as a buffer for Russia against the rest of Europe.
Your assumption here, a variant of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, seems to be Ukraine is a good country, so its supporters can’t possibly be nationalists. Only supporters of bad countries like Russia can be nationalists.
But if we define things that way, we’ve made nationalism dissappear. It doesn’t ever exist in any country, it only exists outside it. Nobody is a nationalist in their own eyes. Only their nation’s enemies can ever be nationalists by this definition.
Putin, after all, thinks Russia is a good country, so by this definition he doesn’t think he’s a nationalist at all. And that exactly matches what he says. He’s repeatedly called the Zelinsky regime a bunch nationalists, as a pejorative.
So Putin and you actually agree, completely, on what nationalism is in this respect. You both believe nationalism is a bad thing and it’s what your country’s enemies do.
No, that's not remotely what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if Ukrainian nationalism were what was motivating Ukraine to fight, then the ethnically-Russian citizens of Ukraine — in other words, members of the Russian rather than Ukrainian nation — would be on Putin's side. But they're not. (Generally speaking; obviously some individual ones are.) It's Ukrainian patriotism, not nationalism, that is inspiring Ukraine's resistance.
It's very difficult to translate Europe into the US. European nations tend to be far more ethnically homogeneous and their identities are far more wrapped up in that fact. We, along with places like Canada and Australia have identities based on totally different criteria.
That (homogeneity), is changing though.
Did you see the national soccer teams (and yes that's an extremely small sample).
But having lived in Germany/Europe for over two decades, it's definitely changing and that's also why we're seeing the rise of right-wing parties again.
Hard to get more Anti-semitic than the current DemoKKKrat party, with Mullah Omar and General Ayatollah Keith Ellison.
Yeah, sexual assaults and rapes are up for some reason that cannot be named.
And the rise on "nightwing parties" is generally ones that aren't lapdog to you international socialists. Fuck off with that dishonest framing.
The basic idea that there should be a state governing a territory where a group of people with similar ethnic, cultural, linguistic, religious, etc backgrounds isn’t necessarily a bad one. But it can easily get wrapped up in imperialist and revanchist ideologies. Or ones that lead the nation to oppress the minorities that happen to be within its borders.
That's actually what happens with the opposite to nationalism. Cosmopolitianism.
This is another of the key points I’ve been trying to make over the years.
Human beings seem to need a shared identity that involves being immersed in a common culture and being with people similar to themselves. A moderate nationalism can address that need, regarding it as a positive or at least something to be accepted, and work with it to draw out its benefits while ameliorating its most violent tendencies. When people are more comfortable in their own community and identity, they are easier on outsiders, and a moderate nationalism helps create that comfort level.
Human beings have a nature, whether given by a God or by biology, they have one. Rather than construct utopian ideologies that involve demonizing that nature, fighting it tooth and nail, and imagining human beings are infinitely malleable if only that nature could somehow be overcome and human beings could be brought to live by “reason” alone, it is better to accept that nature, work with it, and try to help people be comfortable with it - not focusing solely on individuals and their peculiarities, as not everyone is the same in this respect, but on the majority and its needs, on the society thought of as a society.
Professor Somin suffers from the common ailment of starting with an ideology conceived from a set of principles thought of as Reason, seeing that people don’t measure up to it, and then simply declaring people bad and decreeing that they must change. That road is simply a path to more suffering. In the end, people tend to demonize people who demonize them. One has to somehow proceed without demonizing people.
A moderate nationalism accepts traditional customs, mores and holidays, accepts that people will resist change and some people and areas will resist more than others, accepts that many don’t like cosmopolitan environments and there will have to be some areas that have it less than others, accepts that rapid change can promote conservative reactions.
If, at the end of WWI, the victors had been less punitive towards Germany, had rubbed it in less, had accepted that great nations who have never been invaded or conquested don’t submit to onerous peaces without consequences, there might not have been a Hitler and a WWII. Today as well, the left is finding victory snatched from its hands just when it had begun feeling confident that the world was totally its and nation-states were a thing of the past. See a pattern?
While it could be argued the pattern is declining, Britain’s preservation of traditional symbols of the nation and culture from the past, while pursuing moderate change arguably helped it avoid the convulsions and violence that engulfed the rest of Europe during the 20th century. Peace comes from acceptance and moderation. An ideology that insists people must change now or else is often a recipe for civil war, or for takeover by a dictator, or both.
"Professor Somin suffers from the common ailment of starting with an ideology conceived from a set of principles thought of as Reason, seeing that people don’t measure up to it, and then simply declaring people bad and decreeing that they must change."
Real people must be punished for not conforming to the ideals of the elites. That’s why they intentionally make Americans' lives worse.
Everything is punishment to you.
Kinky.
Sarcastr0 thinks it’s funny when he and his friends intentionally make Americans' lives worse.
If your life is worse, it's because of your own personal failings. Stop blaming everyone but yourself.
There are numerous governments at local and national levels with explicit goals to make people's lives worse off to "Save The Planet".
They publish these goals abs routinely report on their progress on achieving them.
This is certainly true of conservativism generally. Any political philosophy that it thinks it good to save anything – and conserving is just another word gor saving – is in the business of making people’s lives today worse for the benefit of a supposed tomorrow. And because we don’t know for sure what will happen, any statement about the future is made with less than certainty. Any platform that asks people to worry about tomorrow rather than living solely for today necessarily makes people’s lives today worse off in order to save something for an uncertain tomorrow. By your definition, that makes conservativism as a philosophy, any kind of conservativism, harmful.
“If your life is worse, it’s because of your own personal failings”
Mafia bosses say it’s your own fault for not joining the organization or buying protection.
Losers say that powerful outside forces are holding them down or undermining them.
Also the guy whose store was just burned down by the mafia or put out of business by the Covid gestapo. He says stuff like that too.
But it’s interesting that you say none of us ever have any obligation to help anyone in need.
Obviously you’ll argue the exact opposite the next time it helps you justify marking life worse for Americans.
All it takes to turn a rugged individualist into a mewling helpless baby is mention the word government.
Policymakers aren’t trying to punish you. Take some personal responsibility. Or, if as I suspect your life is fine, actually, quit ginning up reasons to stay mad on behalf of people you don’t know.
No, Americans don’t have to quietly go along with your efforts to make our lives worse because you said "rugged individualist".
Policymakers have published goals designed to lower our quality of lives, reduce our abundance, reduce our ability to travel freely, and tax us for breathing and all other sorts of punishments as part of their Green Agenda.
Of course, they will be exempt because that's what every socialist institution looks like. A bunch of super rich, powerful, and exempt rulers and very poor oppressed masses. (And their bootlickers, natch).
Yep. Environmentalism is about punishing anti-conformity. You got us! Wow, you're so smart! Time for me to go eat a pizza with extra baby.
More about punishing Americans — even the conforming ones.
These guys here think it’s fun to harm Americans because they can personally afford it or because they figured out a way to personally gain from worsening Americans' hardships.
You don’t wanna so it’s all lies. And not just lies, sadistic lies to punish you.
The awful world you choose to believe in…
They publish their goals and progress reports.
COP40 for example has a stretch goal of no cars and no meat. Published.
I don't think anyone's confused about the goals of environmentalism. A couple of us whose names start with B are confused about the intent.
Contrary to what a couple of mindless loons here think because I criticize Trump, I am a libertarian. Of course I say that.
A mindblowingly careless swipe, given that's been the core message of most minority groups over the course of time.
Actually minority groups don’t sound much like Ben and BCDs bitter reactionaryism.
No, there’s an extremely subtle distinction that only exists in Sarcastr0's mind when he wishes really hard.
Nonetheless, it’s the world's most important difference!
Minority groups claiming oppression or systematic issues by and large don’t hate America. They want more, but are filled with hope.
You really seem like you hate it here.
"Human beings seem to need a shared identity that involves being immersed in a common culture and being with people similar to themselves."
10,000 years of recorded human history of warfare disagrees with you.
"10,000 years of recorded human history of warfare disagrees with you."
...on the contrary, it proves it.
Were the people who wrote/signed this a bunch of "evil nationalists"?
As I see it, the answer isn't "They weren't really nationalists because...", but rather: "Sure, they were nationalists. And there's nothing wrong with that (pace Messrs. Somin & Nowrasteh)!"
Were the people who wrote/signed this a bunch of “evil nationalists”?
They said that all men are created equal in that same document, but certainly didn't live up to that, so, what is your point again? Not to mention that it is a straw man to even say that anyone is calling the Founders "evil nationalists" because there are some people in America that might justly be called nationalist nearly two and a half centuries later.
If they were truly nationalists, then they would not have named us the "United" States and instead would have given us a singular name, e.g., Utopia.
And there I was thinking that it’s Prof. Somin & Co. who’re trying to create a utopia, along the lines of John Lennon’s Imagine.
What’ll happen if they get enough people to go along? Why the same thing that happens every single time people buy into a utopia (see French Revolution, Russian Revolution, etc.)!
I will read the piece later when I have time. But regarding nationalism, I always refer to George Orwell's masterful essay, NOTES ON NATIONALISM first published IIRC in 1946.
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/
He distinguishes Nationalism (a form of negative political group behavior) from Patriotism (a form of positive political group behavior). Since people use these words synonymously, I use blander terms when making the same arguments - Group Behavior 1 and Group Behavior 2.
This was one of Orwell’s most common themes. Orwell’s Lion and the Unicorn focused on introducing socialism while preserving England’s distinctive traditions and heritage. He regularly lambasted the left, much as I have Professor Somin above, for creating utopian Procrustean beds whose net result tends to be a lot of limbs on the floor.
I think Orwell’s patriotism vs. nationalism distinction is a good one, and we ought to revive it.
Professor Somin, perhaps it might be a good idea to do another post that takes a look at Orwell’s distinction and see if you ageee or disagree with it.
"Professor Somin, perhaps it might be a good idea to do another post that takes a look at Orwell’s distinction and see if you agree or disagree with it."
Don't waste your time addressing Ilya. There is no evidence he has ever responded to comments of his posts on Reason, be they critical or praising.
In my last post, I highlighted Cato Institute scholar Alex Nowrasteh's excellent critique of claims that immigration causes harm by reducing social trust.
If that was true, then "reducing social trust" would be a euphemism for not wanting any dern ferriners in their country. So, it seems that the argument Nowrasteh would be critiquing is that some people are going to be xenophobic bigots, so we should placate them by restricting immigration.
I appreciated Professor Somin’s willingness to engage his ideological opponents in his earlier post.
If you start with the presumption that anyone who disagrees with you is evil – “xenophobic bigots” or whatever nasty language you can come up with – there really isn’t any alternative to simply killing the people you disagree with, or at least somehow neutralizing them by force. Civil war is inevitable. There’s nothing to talk about. Democracy certainly would make no sense. You wouldn’t want to risk the triumph of objective good over objective evil by giving the objectively evil people a say in how things are run. Nor could free speech be valued. Why would you want to give the evil people a platform?
Our entire experiment in a democratic society is based on the idea that political discourse works by persuading others through reason and argument, not simply by denouncing them. Without that, there’s no point in it, and it’s a guaranteed failure.
No need to debate with opponents.
Just out-vote them.
With phony ballots
"Stolen election" conservative kooks and vote-suppressing Republican bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Given that you think a man who likes to ejaculate into another man's colon and play house with him is a hero, you have no credibility on any issue.
You know you’re a freak right?
You know you're a traitor, right?
These are your people, Volokh Conspirators -- each of you, to a man, unless you have publicly disclaimed association with this white, male, right-wing, bigot-hugging blog.
I have not noticed that any of you has attempted to improve this blog's low-grade operations in any way. This diminishes every one of you.
How cum you always comment on the comments about ejaculation and men's anuses? Almost like it's a subject you have some experience with.
Rev is an expert on such matters. He's planning on spending Christmas with the Bathhouse Boys in Hells Kitchen.
Dear Rev.: Both elnurmamedrafiev (I can't remember what he used to call himself) and Drackman are obsessed with thoughts of male body parts and sex between men. Part of that is explained by their low I.Q.s, their lack of education, their inability to reach emotional maturity, and their failures to progress beyond middle-school humor. It's sad, really. But the only answer is to laugh at them and ignore them. It's working with Trump and it will work with them. As you've pointed out many times, they are pathetic bigots and losers who are well on their way to irrelevancy. Good riddance.
Our government paradigm is the government has no powers unless specifically granted it in a constitution.
Who in their right mind would authorize government to regulate sexuality?
Everything else is just hemming and hawing and needle threading to achieve desired goals…of the power hungry. Look, another little group who just wants to be left alone I can lead you to anger over!
If Republicans suppress votes, do Democrats also suppress votes?
Do you think in a civil war context anyone is going to care about voting? You're not going to herd conservative whites into camps, no matter how much you want.
Nobody actually wants that. But you do literally want to herd your enemies into extermination camps, so you’re just projecting to make yourself feel less evil and sociopathic.
Yes, actually, you do want that. That's why your side has thrown "norms" to the wayside, while canceling anyone or anything that doesn't go along with your evil plans.
Lol I can actually find comments from you openly embracing mass murder or extermination. You won’t find comments like that from me or pretty much any normie liberal or run of the mill leftist.
“Cancelling” is just the criticism and social stigma that occurs when you have shitty views. It’s not the same as extermination and you know it.
The fact is you openly advocate mass murder and openly hope other people get cancer. Good people don’t do this. You are currently not a good person by any known form of human morality.
But you have to pretend that the other side is evil and planning worse to justify your own embrace of sociopathy to yourself. Somewhere you have a sense of morality that is telling you that you harbor evil views and you need to resolve the dissonance with projection and other defense mechanisms.
Given that you people want us dead, it's totally reasonable to want to beat you to the punch.
Go suck a dick, faggot.
But I don’t want you dead, dumbass. I want you to go to therapy, and maybe touch grass, but I don’t want you dead.
No, you just want us replaced by illiterate third worlders for votes. And if they kill us like Kate Steinle, well that's just too bad.
No. I literally just want you to go to therapy. I know it’s not super effective for antisocial personality disorders but it might help with the anxiety and paranoia or keep you from harming yourself or others.
" Go suck a dick, faggot. "
How are those "civility standards" you have waved from your hypocritical high horse when censoring me coming along, Prof. Volokh?
Because your comments contain offensive words, ideas, dreams (wet ones, probably) It's like I look up "Offensive Sex Offender" and I see Jerry S's picture! Be cool like us "Klingers"
Exactly! like we did with Hilary Rodman in 0-16 and Gore/Kerry before that (I know, sad the most recent win was 6 years ago) Never understood the whole "Debate" thang anyway, like someone's gonna say something really clever that's gonna make me change my mind about Israel? Or something really important, the DH rule.
Frank "Let my Pitchers Go! (Hit)"
You've basically described the attitude of the current "liberals" / "progressives." Pretty fucking scary...
And "conservatives" haven't yet learned what the "progressives" have in store for them. If they had, they'd strike first.
Our entire experiment in a democratic society is based on the idea that political discourse works by persuading others through reason and argument, not simply by denouncing them. Without that, there’s no point in it, and it’s a guaranteed failure.
This brings to mind an incident that I'll always remember from when I was in college. It was a political science course I was taking as an elective on criminal justice. (Physics major) It was taught by a local judge. The topic of excessive force by police came up and this was around the time of the Rodney King incident and trial of the officers. (I don't remember if it was before or after the verdict and the riots that followed the not guilty verdict.)
The judge had said that he "understood" why cops could do what they did after a tense, high-speed chase. That didn't go over well. There's more to the story, but to make it short, he said that he meant that he understood in an intellectual manner of analyzing their thinking and reactions, not of sympathizing with them. That didn't help much. The reaction of many students (and not just the Black students) was that it wasn't necessary to try and understand them, even on that analytical level. Evil was evil, they would say, and just needs to be opposed.
I take a middle view. Understanding, in a rational way, why people can have emotional responses or beliefs and views that we find abhorrent has value. But once we recognize that someone holds such views or beliefs, there is not much value in holding back from calling those views out for what they are. The only reason to be reluctant to call someone a bigot if we have honestly evaluated their actions and statements to warrant that label is in the hope that we might still persuade them to act less bigoted or otherwise to engage in self-reflection. But that also risks allowing their views to seem less outside the mainstream. People that don't think that way, but that might be persuaded by bigots to view others negatively need to see them for what they are. Sugar-coating things can open the Overton Window to let those thoughts in as acceptable positions to hold.
People that view immigration as a negative thing for the country because they fear being "replaced" by people from "shithole" countries that don't look like them, believe in the same religion, or speak the same language are xenophobic bigots. Not using that term and not calling it out as abhorrent won't help them change their views. It will allow things like the "great replacement theory" to continue to gain a foothold in acceptable political discourse. People that watch Tucker Carlson might be offended at being labeled as bigots for buying what he is selling, but it isn't worth targeting them for persuasion. It is better to make sure that people that haven't already bought into that worldview know what that worldview is really about.
The “great replacement theory” is gaining a foothold because it’s what YOU ARE ACTIVELY DOING.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3786607-northern-virginia-sheriff-ends-voluntary-cooperation-agreement-with-ice/
It's the old Libs of Tiktok strategy.
Shine a light on their own words and you're a violent bigot!
Uh the dude you are replying to is openly a white supremacist who advocates mass murder. He is in fact a violent bigot by his own words.
Only "Mass Murder" in this Country has been the 50-60 million Afro-Amuricans not born since 1973 due to "Roe" and advocated by White Supremercists like Senescent Joe (wonder when he became "Pro Choice"? was even McGovern "Pro Choice" in 1972? I know the "Acid, Amnesty, Abortion" rap, but it's sort of like the claim that Ronaldo Maximus spoke of "Strapping Bucks", find me a Videotape of either saying it (pretty sure they had Videotape in 1972)
Frank "Just the Acid, thank you very much"
When a liberal receives a summons for jury duty, his eyes brighten with glee at the prospect of earning $15 for a day sitting in an air conditioned room with other neer do wells watching Maury before being informed that he is ineligible to serve due to his felony convictions.
Last served on a Jury in 1983, pretty righteous bucks for an unemployed College Student. (and free Lunch!)
"People that view immigration as a negative thing for the country…"
I view Democrats' lawlessness as a negative thing for the country. We have political processes to decide questions like immigration. Democrats during the Obama Administration turned their back on deciding any of those sorts of questions using the mechanisms of representative government, maybe forever.
Immigration is positive sometimes and negative sometimes. There’s no seriousness to any argument that it’s always positive or always negative.
Guess what - that Admin was also democratically elected. Also Biden. Also Trump.
Seems like you don’t think Democratic Presidents count as elected.
You should learn what the words "representative government" mean.
The politics process to decide policy for immigration includes both the legislative and the executive. And the judiciary is also part of the political process!
You only think the process counts if Republicans win.
Where did you study government.
Laws (all laws) are passed by the legislature.
The job of the executive is to enforce the laws as written.
The judiciary is not supposed to be political and is there to settle questions regarding the laws. Not make new ones.
If you think all laws are passed by the legislature you’re going to freak out when you find out how contract and tort law work.
The executive makes policies.
Judiciary decisions don’t make policy, generally. But they sure do have policy implications!
You’ve posted here enough to pick that up.
Biden has been following immigration law more closely than Trump did.
Hardly.
I view Democrats’ lawlessness as a negative thing for the country. We have political processes to decide questions like immigration.
Then you aren't one of the people I'm talking about when I refer to xenophobic bigots. Disagreements over the legal procedures regarding immigration and the pros and cons to our society and economy grounded in rational thought are absolutely important and the proper focus of discussion. But I won't pretend that there aren't people with prominence on the right that will even dispense with the dog whistles and outright say that they (mostly white Christians of Western and Northern European descent) fear being replaced by people from third-world countries that don't share the values of "real" Americans. If you're as willing to call out those people for their obvious bigotry as you are to argue against the immigration policies of Democrats, then that would be great. Together we could keep the Overton Window from expanding to include them.
Bigotry, by definition, is irrational. It's not irrational to want your country to be composed of people like you, who look like you, think like you, and share your values. 80 IQ Aztecs from Mexico (they're not Spaniards) can not carry on a society built by 100 IQ white Protestants from the British Isles.
Rational thought relies on objective evaluation of evidence. What objective evidence are you evaluating to conclude that Mexicans with primarily indigenous ancestry have an average IQ of 80 compared to WASPs having an average IQ of 100? What objective evidence is there that IQ is even a reliable enough indicator of intelligence to make such broad conclusions about whole populations?
There's a meme video of a car fleeing down the highway and overturning into a shallow ditch. The man is ejected.
The police roar up and get out and one guy jumps on him and starts beating him (which is why it is a meme.)
What it doesn't show is earlier on the guy deliberately swerving in an attempt to hit some police officers standing in the road.
So you can understand why, even if you don't agree with it.
Wait huh? Are you defeding police brutality when the police are angry? Or do you think people who are against police brutality don't "understand" it?
Whatever point you're making, it doesn't reflect well on you.
It's evil for the people in government, especially a Western White one to prioritize the care for her citizens over citizens from other countries!
Sincerely,
Jews and other assorted Communists everywhere
I don't think it's evil at all.
(And I'm Jewish, so there goes your categorical statement about Jews.)
I was born Jewish (but am a non-denominational Protestant Christian now) and he's right for 90% of non-Haredi Jews.
One advantage of free speech - anti-Semites will expose themselves, rather than us having to guess.
Oh noes I was called an anti-semite! That's so powerful and meaningful!!
I'm sure you're crying all night about it!
Get a room you two.
They have a room. It is the Volokh Conspiracy, haven for half-educated racists, superstitious gay-bashers, Russia-hugging antisemites, on-the-spectrum misogynists, anti-government cranks, right-wing culture war casualties, and immigrant-hating, disaffected Federalist Societeers.
...and a Merry Christmas to you too.
I expect to have a very merry Christmas . . . my grandchildren are all still believers in Santa Claus, and I find the holiday season to be particularly enjoyable when there is at least one believer in the house.
For adults, I hope everyone finds at least one bottle of Mad Elf under the tree (or, toward the Pacific, a bottle of Anchor Steam Christmas Ale, which hasn't been quite the same since Fritz Maytag sold the brewery but is still a worthwhile holiday tradition).
Hitler and Mussolini bad.
Ok?
Might be more persuasive to argue against the current political ideals. Or for specific policies.
Open borders? Free trade with China?
Hitler and Mussolini are saints in comparison to modern liberals.
Major Life Events for LawTalkingGuy:
Age 4: Win first prize in anal sex lessons at Montessori Pre-K
Age 8: Dad comes out as gay; Mom's first nervous breakdown
Age 10: Mom embarks upon 3 decade long addiction to prescription medication
Age 12: Lose virginity to local gang-banger hand selected by Mom, who watches
Age 13: First Abortion; Family reunites at Applebee's to celebrate
Age 17: College visits; Inquire at registrar about courses in BDSM and holocaust studies
Age 22-24: The Starbucks Years; 13 more abortions
Age 25-32: Realize that abortions decrease food stamp and welfare payments, and have 7 children with 5 different men
Age 33: Sign up for an Obamaphone
Age 35: First fraudulent disability claim
Age 40: Navigate to the Washington Post; register first account
Age 42: overcome disgust, marry soy boy, become birthing person, squeeze out non binary child
Age 45: Join Antifa, attack police
Age 47: Stage fake hate crimes, cry when caught
Age 51: Make false rape accusations, get hailed as hero by left
You are NOT a normal person dude. Seek help.
DNFTT.
Meh. Day off today.
These guys are the core audience of this blog.
You're one to talk, seriously, you fell for the "Obama-fone" crap?
No this is a fake product of his incredibly damaged imagination.
lol nailed him
Did he? He kind of just demonstrated that he’s a freak with a personality disorder.
He's the type who would wish for a gay son so that his vain wife has someone to go shopping with.
Wow what a strangely diseased mind you've got. But you seem to enjoy fantasizing about perversion and hate, so, you know, whatever makes you happy.
The vast majority of Jews scorned Zionism at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century because it was obviously a depraved and evil ideology that intended to do to Palestinians what Spain did to Jews at the end of the 15th century.
The following assertion is total nonsense.
Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone prophet, conceived his religion solely to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist.
That actually makes sense.
Thanks bro.
Christianity (ane Judaism) is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and proto-Yahwehism, where Yawheh went from a mountain god, one of many in his pantheon, to top dog, to top dog stronger than all the other dogs (including other pantheons, like Egypt's), to top dog stronger than all the other dogs put together, and finally to being so powerful the other gods don't even exist anymore.
I thought it funny modern TV preachers claim apocryphal and other religious works are plants by the devil. Then I read of a 4th century guy who warned of these other works as being exactly that. So it's not some new concept. Literally they were fakes planted by the devil to make it falsely look like Christianity evolved from them.
I should qualify that. Original Christianity spread like wildfire because people admired its emphasis on caring for the sick and poor. Some of the very earliest non-Biblical writings attest to this.
The fall in European religiosity tracks the government adopting these things from religions. ("Yes, of course!")
And how well did that prevent the organization from getting dominated by evil?
Buckle up.
Only white countries are told that they have no right to remain white and must allow themselves to be replaced by foreigners. No one demands demographic replacement of India, China, Japan or Nigeria. Anti-racist is code for anti-white.
More strange fantasies from el. Do you think there aren't white people living in India, China, Japan, or Nigeria? Or do you think they're being mistreated?
You're just looking for a reason to hate and discriminate against non-white immigrants. That's not a problem white people face when they immigrate abroad.
How about Black Americans when they emigrate or travel abroad.
It's not necessarily racial but more cultural.
Ok weird new subject but I’m curious. What about black Americans who travel abroad?
Another writer pretending nationalism and racial nationalism are the same thing. American, Canadian, Australia, New Zealand and much South American nationalism is about finding common ground between ethnicities and cultures and promoting a spirit of unity. The polar opposite of say, National Socialist nationalism, which was about racial exclusion.
Also, maybe Somin should use the dictionary definition of nationalism rather than inventing his own to argue against.
Finally, could someone explain how globalism (which Cato is so hot for) isn't just warmed over imperialism for global elites.
Capitalism is, properly speaking, a corollary of freedom. It arises naturally when free people band together to form larger enterprises than can be accomplished alone. Government forms so corruption can get in the way, to get paid to get back out of the way. The corruption is not an unfortunate side effect of the wielding of power, an abomination of disinterested, well-meaning government naifs twisted by business or the rich. It is the purpose of government from day 1.
There’s a fundamental theorem of calculus, and a fundamental theorem of algebra. I shall finally christen this idea The Fundamental Theorem of Government.
Government forms so corruption can get in the way of free people doing capitalism!
This is like sophomore who never took history or philosophy stuff. Read people who have thought about this before you exalt your personal take.
Well, it's more or less true, in that government is nothing more than an evolved protection racket, and he's describing a protection racket. The less true aspect of it is that the protection racket predates capitalism.
"The" dictionary definition? You think there's one dictionary and one definition? But Prof. Somin is using the standard definition; you are not. You are one of the people I mentioned above who confuse (deliberately or accidentally) nationalism and patriotism, because you confuse (deliberately or accidentally) nation and country.
Also, talking about dictionary definitions and then claiming that Cato is for "imperialism" is a bit rich.
“But Prof. Somin is using the standard definition;”
Like Hell he is. This is one of those tendentious ‘definitions’ the left routinely crafts to try to define themselves into automatically winning debates. Like defining ‘racism’ in terms of nominal power relationships instead of bias.
Just by using this 'definition' he's outing himself as a left-winger; Nobody else takes these sorts of 'definitions' seriously.
Yes, that’s the standard definition in political science. Like everything else you think is a leftist conspiracy, it isn’t one.
At 8.6 Democrats for every Republican, political science isn't the most one sided discipline, (That would be communications.) but it's a long ways from balanced. I wouldn't be shocked if they'd adopted as their standard definition of 'nationalism' a definition that is popular with left-wingers.
The fact remains that if you go to the dictionaries that reflect how ordinary people use the term, that's not the definition they use.
Classic Brett: facts have a liberal bias.
No, that’s a classic David. I’d say that you think facts have a liberal bias, but that’s just confirmation bias.
It’s quite possible the political science community are now using totally loaded definitions for everything. The left is turning one academic field after another into a flaming dumpster, as they divert them from their original goals to political use.
At the same time, almost everybody else is still using the unloaded definitions, as is demonstrated by the definitions you’ll find in multiple dictionaries.
Even Merriam Webster, which of late has been altering definitions to agree with Democratic party talking points, has this definition:
“1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups”
Take a screen shot, though: If it become politically salient, they’ll change it to agree with the left.
Let’s go to the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics and International Relations, (2018 edition.) shall we?
“nationalism Nationalism, in the words of *Ernest Gellner, ‘is primarily a political principle, which holds that the political and the national unit should be congruent’. However, this definition tells us little concerning different forms of nationalism or what motivates nationalist movements. Nationalism is a diverse and complex phenomenon. Part of this complexity derives from the difficulty in distinguishing nation from state, and from ethnic groups. A state is a political entity with (usually) clearly defined territorial borders. Nations are more fluid—defined at their most basic by a sense of belonging to a community, and possessing a sense of separatedness. This community can be defined according to many different criteria. ”
Maybe you can find a source other than Nowrasteh that adopts this definition?
I'm not sure why you think that these quotes help your case. You're misunderstanding them because you are mistakenly treating "nation" as synonymous with "country." The first one doesn't really elaborate on that, but the second explicitly does.
Funny thing is that the etymology of “nationalism” shows that the word was the same as “patriotism” back in the late 18th and early 19th centuries when it appeared. It wasn’t until the 20th century that it took on any other meaning.
Of course, “patriot” was just a shortening of “compatriot”, and was sometimes considered an insult in mid-19th century English, although that listed separately from the American English meaning. Its roots refer back to the patria – the fatherland, and those that share the same ancestors. A common ethnic identity, if you will.
Hmm.
Was going to say something about the strawman definition of nationalism but that’s already beaten to death, so I’ll add this. If you consider yourself an opponent of something, your definitions are rarely accurate. Check your biases at the door.
“group of genetically similar individuals with a common language, culture, religion, and ethnicity.”
The problem here is the “and” not being an or. Self professed nationalist movements have never attached an and clause to these components. Different movements have incorporated different elements, but they are mutually exclusive from one another. You can have a purely cultural nationalism that does not care for race, religion or ethnicity (America). You can have a purely religious nationalism that does not care for culture, race or ethnicity (Israel). There’s a lot of variety out there.
There is also some double counting going on here because religion and culture are one in the same, but there are larger issues worth addressing before splitting hairs like that. Your definition sucks, so everything after the fact is built on a flawed premise.
The real question is why you’re in such an intellectual hurry to attach a term generally used as a pejorative (nationalism) to certain sociocultural trends.