The Volokh Conspiracy
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Trump Defines Constitutional Deviancy Down
His call for the "termination" of the Constitution is the latest in a long line of dangerous efforts to legitimate the indefensible.

Former President Donald Trump recently called for the "termination" of the Constitution:
Do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.
This is just the latest in a long line of reprehensible norm-breaking statements and actions by Trump. Just within the last few weeks, he also had a congenial meeting with neo-Nazi Nick Fuentes and anti-Semite Kanye West, and called for instituting the death penalty for drug dealers. Even if you support the War on Drugs (which I obviously do not), this would be barbarically excessive punishment.
The usual excuse for for such behavior by Trump is to claim it's all just words and/or that he doesn't really mean it. If nothing else, Trump's effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election and the resulting attack on the Capitol should give the lie to the notion that he doesn't really mean what he says, and that his abhorrent statements won't lead to action. He and his most committed supporters are more than happy to undermine the Constitution if it gets in their way.
But even when Trump's awful ideas cannot or do not lead to immediate action, they can still cause longterm harm by normalizing the previously unthinkable. In 1993, Senator and former Harvard Prof. Daniel Patrick Moynihan published a famous article entitled "Defining Deviancy Down," in which he argued that (mostly) left-wing tolerance for various forms of criminal behavior and social pathology can increase crime and disorder over time, by making such actions more socially acceptable. For years, conservatives loved to cite this article as a warning against excessively permissive liberal attitudes towards criminality. While I don't agree with everything in Moynihan's analysis, the dynamic he identified is a genuine problem. At least on some issues, conservatives who cited it had a valid point.
Much the same point applies to Trump's deviations constitutional and political norms. The more we tolerate them, the greater the danger of normalization. I outlined this dynamic in a 2018 post on "Why Trump's Words Matter":
When Trump claims it is "treason" to refuse to applaud his State of the Union, denounces "so-called judges" for ruling against his policies, and threatens to use the regulatory powers of government against his critics, he may not (yet) be able to act on these sentiments. But the fact that he says such things makes these ideas and others like them more thinkable than before. That, in turn, increases the likelihood that Trump or a future president will act on them. Anything supported by the leader of one of the two major parties (especially one who wins the presidency) is likely to enter "mainstream" politics, and thereby get on the list of politically plausible outcomes.
This might not be the case in a world where voters have carefully considered political views and follow policy closely. But…. most voters are ignorant about a wide range of policy issues. And, as extensively documented in an important recent book by political scientists Christopher Achen and Larry Bartels, committed partisans often adopt positions based on whether their party is perceived as supporting them, rather than vice versa. Rather than objectively evaluating policy, many voters act as "political fans" cheering on whatever Team Red or Team Blue advocates. That is especially true in an era of severe polarization and partisan bias, where fear of the opposing party makes partisans reluctant to criticize their own party leaders, so long as those leaders continue to lead the struggle against the hated partisan enemy.
Events since 2018 have only heightened these concerns. The spread of election denialism in the wake of Trump's "Big Lie" about the 2020 election is just the most obvious case in point. If Trump continues to be the dominant figure in the Republican Party, he could potentially also normalize the idea of "terminating" the Constitution, and much other evil.
In fairness, Trump is far from the only recent president who tried to circumvent constitutional limits on his authority when they get in the way of his agenda. President Biden is doing so right now with his massive loan forgiveness plan, which is a Trumpian attempt to usurp Congress' power of the purse. George W. Bush and Barack Obama also committed their share of constitutional sins.
But no other president or ex-president has gone so far as to try to stay in power after losing an election, or called for the complete "termination" of the Constitution, as opposed to merely pushing beyond the limits of his power on some specific issue. None has defined constitutional deviancy nearly as far down as Trump.
How do we forestall the dangerous normalization of constitutional deviancy? By ensuring that politicians who engage in such behavior pay a heavy price. Ideally, Trump and others like him should at least be ostracized from polite political society, and never again considered worthy of holding any position of power again. If that happens, it will serve as a valuable deterrent for future would-be political malefactors. The next time an unscrupulous ambitious politician considers whether imitating Trump's behavior is a good idea, he might conclude he better not, lest he suffer the same fate as Trump himself did.
Trump's defeat in the 2020 election and the failure of Trumpist election deniers in several key 2022 races was a step in the right direction. But much more needs to be done. So long as Trump remains a powerful figure in one of the two major parties and his anti-constitutional ideas remain part of the GOP mainstream, the threat of a dangerous spiral of constitutional deviancy will persist.
One of Moynihan's key insights in "Defining Deviancy Down" is that the most important agents of "normalization" of crime are not so much the criminals themselves as the surrounding society that has come to accept their behavior (or at least no longer protests against it). Similarly, Trump's behavior wouldn't matter as much if it were not so widely condoned and accepted on the political right. GOP tolerance for Trumpist excesses has waned somewhat in the wake of the 2022 election, as they have begun to fear that he is an electoral liability to the party. But the highly equivocal reaction of most party leaders to his latest attack on the Constitution is a sign that it hasn't waned nearly enough.
The party that claims to be a pillar of the Constitution and even promises to read every word out loud when they regain control of the House of Representatives, can't bring itself to ostracize a leader who openly calls for the Constitution's destruction. If that isn't an example of the process of defining deviancy constitutional deviancy down, it's hard to say what is.
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So what? The left shreds the Constitution too, they just won't admit that's what they're doing. But they don't care about separation of powers, gun rights, private property rights, free association rights or anything else as long as a woman can kill her unborn baby and a man can ejaculate into another man's anus.
Hmm, not as bad as a man ejaculating into his dead unborn baby's anus (that's coming under (literally) President Booty-Judge)
I was going to say that, too: While Trump has now ventured into indefensible territory, I don't see how 'terminating' the Constitution while not admitting what you're doing is materially better.
Between the Democrats opposition to Citizens United and Heller/Bruen, they're committed to decimating the Bill of Rights twice over. And that's barely the start of it.
Nothing constrains the Federal’s lust for power, wealth, and control over us.
They are evil monsters and are clear and present dangers to our ways of life and our children's futures.
Ultimately all of this helps build a pretext for actually supporting Trump's demands.
This is the audience the Volokh Conspiracy cultivates.
It is the following a disaffected, bigot-friendly, faux libertarian blog deserves.
CELEB WATCH:
Reverend Ye makes a sighting!
I forcefully reject Trump's suggestion about terminating constitutional provisions.
But I have to say I've read many a rant in the comments here that the electoral college is illegitimate, gerrymandering, which dates to the 1790's renders congressional acts suspect, and having 2 senators a state is tantamount to slavery.
I reject all of those propositions.
Of course, Heller / Bruen's interpretation of 2A is nonsense garbage. But, like Roe, it was done within the framework of the Constitution, so we'll honor the decision until we get the chance to overturn it... again, within the framework of the Constitution.
Trump's asking for us to abandon the Constitution entirely. I'm glad you "forcefully reject" that suggestion. But it's not in the same category as a disagreement over the interpretation of a clause.
By even drawing the parallel, you're fulfilling Trump's agenda. Trump wants people to think that the Democrats are already operating outside of the Constitution, so that Republicans will be willing to reject it when the time comes. Look, he's already gotten all you rubes to defend his call to "terminate the Constitution" on those very grounds.
The Democrats play within the rules of the Constitution. If you don't like the outcomes, that means you don't like the Constitution anymore. If that's where you're at, just say it, like Trump did. If you'd rather rip up the Constitution than tolerate Democratic wins, which is pretty much what Brett is already saying, then Trump's waiting for you with open arms.
If not, then shut the fuck up.
Trump is somewhat insane, but it’s no crazier than this:
How Hillary Clinton Still Can, and Should, Become President After the Trump-Russia Investigation
Clickbait from someone named Julia Glum is not really the smoking gun you think it is, Kaz.
1) "The billionaire former president is no crazier than some random person on the internet" isn't really the defense you think it is.
2) Trump is a lot crazier than your link. What the link described was entirely fantastical; it had zero chance of occurring. But it was not legally impossible. It described a legal way for Hillary to become president, in which a bunch of civic-minded Republicans did the right thing (ok, that is crazy) and voluntarily turned over power to her through a constitutional process if actual treasonous conduct by Trump was proven.
It's always different when you do it. We get it. Just like how Hakeem Jeffries is not an election denier, in spite of him denying the 2016 election for years.
Yes, terminating the constitution is different than not terminating the constitution. Glad you agree.
Ahh, yes, "Heller/Bruen" is nonsense garbage, because it says that the 2nd Amendment means what is so clearly says.
You people are full of shit. You don't play within the rules. Buying votes to get into power, and then appointing judges who want to shred the Constitution as much as you do doesn't qualify as "playing within the rules of the Constitution."
By your retarded standard, anything is within the confines of the Constitution, no matter how stupid or in bad faith, as long as 5 of your judges rubber stamp it.
Let me ask you, if a judge interpreted the equal protection clause to not apply to non-whites or women, would you say it's a legitimate interpretation you disagree with? If not, why not?
Hey, I'm with you. There comes a point where I would decide that the Supreme Court was no longer functioning as intended based on its obviously (to me) self-serving bad-faith decisions. I'm close to that with these six conservative Justices, especially since they were appointed using shenanigans in the first place.
If I did reach the point where I thought the country had abandoned the Constitution anyway with no chance of correcting course, I would be right there with you and Trump.
My point is just that you can't do what Kazinski is doing: compare Trump's statement to Supreme Court arguments you don't like and disavow Trump's statement. It's self-contradictory.
It's not contradictory at all. We can disavow both. But I will not acknowledge that the left's extraconstitutional decisions are made in good faith, because they are categorically NOT.
I didn't say you couldn't disavow them both. I said you couldn't compare them.
Bullshit, Brett.
If you can't see the difference between making a constitutional argument you disagree with and calling for terminating the Constitution to reinstate Trump in power is absurd and irrational.
You are so blinded by your cultism and conviction that you are plainly, absolutely right about everything that you can't see what's in front of your face.
Ahh, I see, so all you have to do is make an indefensible constitutional "argument" in bad faith, and then you're off the hook.
"I'm not calling to shred the Constitution, I'm just putting forth an alternative "interpretation!"
Well… yes. You have to be retarded or in a cult (or likely both) not to see the difference between terminating the Constitution and putting forth an alternative interpretation.
Trump is free to put forth whatever alternative interpretation he wants which means he’s still president, and it’ll be put to the test. Law journals, SCOTUS, and the public will all look at it and say, well, that’s a dumb interpretation. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
It doesn’t matter much for this conversation, but you’re wrong that liberals’ Constitutional interpretations are bad faith. A lot of liberals think that conservative projects like Originalism are fundamentally being done in bad faith — they’re also wrong. If you’re broadly demonizing your political opponents, you are the demon.
Trump’s call to terminate the Constitution is, obviously, bad faith. That’s why broadly demonizing your political opponents is a problem. It allows actual demons like Trump to get a foothold.
No, they're in bad faith. There is no good faith argument that Equal Protection makes an exception for diversity in colleges, for example.
Well, yeah there is. Especially private colleges. But also public ones.
No. There's not.
So you think Sandra Day O’Conner is a bad-faith leftist?
You don’t seem to know what you’re talking about. You’re just an angry caterpillar. You should try to take it less personally that some (most) people have a different opinion than you do.
Yes, I do. I think in her zeal to be a "moderate," she sacrificed constitutional principles for pragmatism. That isn't legitimate, nor in good faith.
You've got a pretty warped sense of other people in that case. Have fun being a misanthrope! Try not to get arrested for seditious conspiracy!
As elnurmanedraflev says, violating the Constitution on the basis of utterly bullshit constitutional interpretations is no different from violating it on the basis of “I can, so there!”. Except that the latter is perhaps a trifle more honest.
Hell, Trump had bullshit interpretations on his side on January 6th, and you don't pretend to respect them. Why should we respect yours? Because you'll have the government shoot us, otherwise?
As I said, you are completely, utterly, incapable of imagining that anyone who disagrees with you about anything might have a reasonable argument.
It's an illness.
Says the guy who is absolutely convinced the government must respect rights the Court formerly pulled out of his ass, and is happy to see rights actually written down in plain English in the BoR violated.
Brett, one is your subjective opinion.
The other is Trump's objective direct speech.
Your incredible prideful partisanship has lead you to shrugging at explicitly denigrating the Constitution.
Think about that.
What are you talking about, shrugging? I'm just not willing to pretend Democrats are innocent at this game. But it's not enough for Trump to be guilty, you need me to pretend that you're innocent, too?
I'm done with Trump at this point. If the GOP leadership aren't piling on, it's only because they don't want to interrupt him while he's busy self-destructing.
It was predictable that Mr. Bellmore would break with Trump.
Trump's failure to provide that promised Kenyan birth certificate was a sure deal-breaker for every delusional, disaffected, right-wing conspiracy theorist.
What are you talking about, shrugging? I’m just not willing to pretend Democrats are innocent at this game
This is literally the argument you have deployed:
You have the inside track on what the Constitution means, and how to interpret it. Dems disagree with you on this front. This is the same as Trump calling for the Constitution to be ignored if it makes him President.
So what can you do but shrug? Shrugging is all you're doing over this whole thread.
But the Dems
But the Dems
But the Dems
Being able to read, and actually understanding English grammar, is hardly an "inside track", Sarcastr0.
Other people can do the same, and disagree with you.
You can't seem to understand that this could be in good faith. That's your personality flaw, not their disregarding the Constitution.
No, they don't disagree in good faith. They just see the Constitution as an outdated document written by racist dead white people and that it should "evolve" to fit their modern policy preferences.
Nope. That's just what Fox News told you to think.
Don't you mean "faux news?" Where's the obligatory reference to the Koch brothers?
You mean the Koch Brother? Even he seems to have wizened up lately and turned against the MAGA traitors.
Brett Bellmore: "... While Trump has now ventured into indefensible territory, I don’t see how ‘terminating’ the Constitution while not admitting what you’re doing is materially better."
Reads like Brett is condemning both sides for terminating the Constitution at their convenience, not "shrugging" at Trump. He calls Trump's venture indefensible.
Both sides are not terminating the Constitution!
Of course it is. It is how politics and the law works. These interpretations are tested, challenged and debated, and if egregious, investigated - Trump dispenses with all that entirely, or demands it. Your resentment at people with different political beliefs to you is why, ultimately, Trump upending everything in order to impose what you hope will be YOUR political beliefs, is something that Republicans may actually come to openly support.
Arguing is much easier when you can simply claim that anyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith.
The argument that “this indefensible thing my guy just did is OK because the other side are complete monsters, look at all the horrible things they’re doing” is a disease of our time. Anyone who talks this way does a disservice to themselves and the causes they claim to support.
Nor am I saying it’s just conservatives or Trump supporters doing it, though it is in this case.
Tu quoque is all that the Trump cult has had left for a considerable while.
But, who's saying what Trump did was OK? Certainly not me.
This is nothing but projection on your part. You are adamantly demanding, not that I identify what Trump said as wrong, (Because I keep doing that!) but instead that I refrain from identifying what YOUR side does as wrong!
Not happening. This isn't a battle of good vs evil, no matter how much you want to pretend it is. It's a battle of evil vs evil.
And YOU'RE the guy insisting that what his side does is OK.
If whenever someone says that Trump did something awful, you bring up Dems, then saying what Trump did is OK is precisely what you're doing.
You're using a fallacy to do so, but you are absolutely defending Trump in all but literally saying he did nothing wrong.
"If whenever someone says that Trump did something awful, you bring up Dems, then saying what Trump did is OK is precisely what you’re doing."
No. Literally, categorically, no. You're trying, desperately, to create a set of rules where you can say Republican's shit stinks, and they're not allowed to point out that yours does, too.
I really do not care how much you hate context, how desperately you want only Republican sins to be discussed. It's not happening.
Then explain your point that requires you bring up Dems, and talk about them rather than Trump?
You did say above Trump’s statements are indefensible, so — good. We agree. But then you launched into a tirade about how the left’s actions are just as bad (worse, even!). The example you gave was Citizens United. I actually agree with you that the case was rightly decided, but saying that opposing a Supreme Court decision is ‘just as bad’ as calling for the constitution to be terminated is… not a good argument, in my view. Which I think someone as smart as you clearly are already knows.
In any case, I strongly disagree with your ‘this is evil versus evil’ perspective. Evil can be found anywhere, to be sure. But adopting a perspective of ‘everybody is scum, but the other side’s always a little more scummy’ forestalls any possibility of respectful disagreement or making things better.
Bernard you’re right in that what Trump said is worse than saying something like “let’s get rid of the electoral college”. Assume those saying that mean doing so within the framework of the constitution, which is how I’ve always taken it (even though I don’t agree with it).
On the other hand, conspiring with major SM companies to suppress the speech of your opponents is closer to what Trump said than you care to admit.
And the thing that must always be remembered as to Trump is that he’s an impulsive moron.
A policy proposal is not the same as an explicit call for antidemocratic action, bevis.
The state compact or a Constitutional amendment is what those against the electoral college are asking for.
Come on!
That’s exactly what I said. Thanks for repeating it, but you could have done so without arguing. Well, looks like you actually couldn’t.
You're right, I didn't read to your twitter conspiracy nonsense.
Did you read up on the supposed twitter dump? It's both political parties using the usual complaint channel about stuff, with no real evidence of partisanship at all, and serious discussions happening at high levels.
So yeah, you're still way off base in your mania to bothsides everything.
“It’s both political parties using the usual complaint channel”….”your mania yo bothsides everything”
Hell, now you’re actually arguing with yourself.
So this is where you can rebut my narrative with facts or a link, and we can start talking about what happened.
I’ll get started with my favorite blogger:https://jabberwocking.com/heres-the-story-of-twitter-elon-musk-matt-taibbi-and-the-hunter-biden-laptop/
So what bombshells did Taibbi expose during his tweet-by-tweet unveiling on Friday afternoon? Would you believe me if I said none?
Probably not, so let’s go through what Taibbi found:
People sometimes ask Twitter to remove tweets. In particular, presidential campaigns do this.
In particular particular, Joe Biden’s campaign periodically asked Twitter to remove some tweets. Taibbi has a screen shot of one of the emails they sent.
In that case, the tweets turned out to be nude pictures of Hunter Biden. Twitter agreed to remove them because they were basically revenge porn, which Twitter doesn’t allow.
When the Post story came out, Twitter execs engaged in a fairly normal, low-key conversation about what they should do. For various and obvious reasons, they thought the whole thing looked like a ratfuck and was quite possibly based on hacked material, which violated their rules.
So they banned links to the Post story. Then they spent the next day tying themselves in knots over whether they had done the right thing. Within 24 hours they changed their mind and rescinded the ban.
Neither the FBI nor the Biden campaign was involved in any of this.
Long story short, it turned out the material wasn’t hacked and didn’t violate Twitter’s policies. The Twitter execs never displayed any kind of partisan bias here, but they did show some poor judgment. And even that’s pretty understandable given the plain and obviously fishy nature of the Post story.
They found that Twitter often responds to politicians' demands for censorship. But not in a symmetrical way.
Twitter would sometimes act on Republican office holders' demands. Twitter would almost always act on Democratic politicians' demands, whether or not they were in office.
Even when Trump was President and the Republicans controlled Congress, Twitter was more responsive to Democratic demands than Republican.
And once office and party aligned, all pretense of balance went away.
"Neither the FBI nor the Biden campaign was involved in any of this."
At this point you're just making shit up about what's been released.
They didn't find that, Brett. Some claimed it, but no one actually found anything like that.
You do realize that those decisions were handled at a pretty low level by many, many decision makers, right? Is this another conspiracy of thousands of workers all being partisan liberals and not professionals?
Your link is incoming complaints by the Biden team, using regular channels just as did the GOP. If you're using it say that the blocking of the NY Post involved Biden folks, you're the one making shit up.
‘But not in a symmetrical way.’
Where’s the symmetry in the Biden campaign requesting stolen/hacked nudes of the candidate’s son be taken down, in compliance with Twitter’s own tos, and the President of the US and his proxies demanding they be kept up because they’re part of HIS re-election campaign? ‘More responsive’ actually seems to mean that the Democrats had the better arguments.
Neither the FBI or the Biden campaign were involved in the decision-making process outside of making the same sorts of requests every other citizen is entitled to make, in the case of the campaign, and a much earlier generic warning to be on the watch-out of disinformation from the FBI.
"They didn’t find that, Brett. Some claimed it, but no one actually found anything like that."
I literally just linked to a screen shot of an internal Twitter communication reading,
"On Sat, Oc 24, 2020 at 5:39 PM ______________@twitter.com> wrote:
More to review from the Biden team:
[list of tweets]
Thanks all.
On Sat, Oc 24, 2020 at 8:28 PM ______________@twitter.com> wrote:
Handled these"
And you've got the gall to deny anybody found what I'd linked to.
As has been explained to you already, Brett, this was a regular channel anyone could use and both parties used.
From Taibi: 10.Both parties had access to these tools. For instance, in 2020, requests from both the Trump White House and the Biden campaign were received and honored.
He claims the reaction wasn't symmetrical, but the only numbers he provides are campaign contributions. I know you think everyone who donates to Dems is a slavering partisan, but to most people that's not really evidence of much.
conspiring with major SM companies to suppress the speech of your opponents is closer to what Trump said than you care to admit.
If that happened it would be bad.
Take a look at the facts rather than what Musk or his lickspittle Taibbi said.
Don’t defend that shit. It’s a terrible look.
He said what you claim isn't happening.
Your response...is not a rebuttle.
His denial isn't a rebuttal, either. Denying it even as the records are being released is remarkably stupid.
It is an argument, at least. 'Nuh-uh' is not one.
And I take it you have not actually checked up on what was actually released, because...yeah, didn't go well for the Hunter Biden laptop right wing tin foilers out there
Maybe something else will come out, but for now Taibbi is looking remarkably stupid!
Yeah, that's the party line, to a "T".
Engage with it then if it is so brainless and wrong.
Have you looked at what's been released, Frett? It absolutely is not anything that could remotely be characterized as "conspiring with major SM companies to suppress the speech of your opponents."
Sorry! Maybe next time. The next prediction of your cult will certainly come true, right?
Bernard,
We've just seen evidence that the Biden Campaign/Administration had contacts within Twitter, where they asked them to deal with certain posts and tweets, and then Twitter "handled" them by banning or eliminating them.
It makes a mockery of the First Amendment.
Oh, for the love of Jesus.
Someone posted naked pictures of Hunter Biden, the Biden campaign alerted twitter that this violated the TOS, and twitter took them down since they were TOS violations.
Is that the peg you're going to hang your whataboutism on?
You're going with that strawman, eh? No real argument?
What do you claim the issue is?
I know that just gesturing means it's harder to be disproven, but eventually it gets old.
You don't know what a strawman actually is, do you?
The Post didn't have any naked pictures of Hunter.
What got them banned for weeks?
I guess you didn't follow the big twitter dump Musk is pushing?
It was an incorrect decision in retrospect, but it was carefully discussed by twitter higher-ups and experts, with no hint of partisanship in the process.
Other than the comms team raising concerns the GOP would blow a gasket regardless of whether they were right or wrong.
It was an incorrect decision prospectively, too, Sarcastr0.
Of course you would think that, Brett. You reliably cry persecution at everything that doesn't go Trump's way.
But lets say you're right (you are not). That is an incorrect decision - it is precisely *not* government collusion with twitter.
You ask why I think you're defending Trump. Look at where you're spending your time, posting, and outrage. And consider why you've prioritized this and not the guy actively attacking the Constitution and our democracy.
So both the Biden campaign (not a government entity) and the Trump administration (definitely a government entity) regularly alerted twitter about what they considered TOS violations, and in many cases twitter took down the posts because they actually were TOS violations.
And its an OUTRAGE!!! that the Biden campaign (again, not a government entity) is making a mockery of the 1A while the Trump administration is perfectly innocent?
Yeah, sure Jan.
For the record, it seems perfectly permissible for either the Trump or Biden administration to alert a private company about TOS violations, just as it is permissible for me to click the "Flag Comment" button here. As long as it's a request and not an order there's no 1A implication. And Twitter, as a private company, can do what it wants with the requests, although the dick pics of Hunter probably ran afoul of the revenge porn laws of California. But the Biden campaign is not in any position to enforce the laws of California.
I think it was an incorrect decision, but of course it was a decision in a way that helped Trump. It took a complete nothingburger of a story and Streisanded it into some scandal.
Which, to their credit, the twitter comms team predicted.
Being a sleazy tabloid, which seems unfair because that's what it's always been.
It's true, you know. Never before has there been as egregious a violation of the famous words of the First Amendment, "nor shall a private company allow a political campaign to request that it not host links to other companies' speech."
It literally has nothing to do with the first amendment, and if you bothered to pay attention to the story, the Trump administration had contacts within Twitter as well. This isn't a partisan thing; it's just a way to handle complaints.
If you bothered to pay attention to the article, you would've seen how the Biden administration had far, far more "contacts" and how things were "handled" so quickly.
And yes. It's a first amendment problem when the government tells a media company specific stories it would like squashed, and the media company immediately does so, due to the government's influence.
"It’s a first amendment problem when the government tells a media company specific stories it would like squashed, and the media company immediately does so, due to the government’s influence."
What evidence do you have that anything of that sort has occurred? Please be specific, including the identities of the participating governmental actors.
Trump was the government at the time, not Biden, for a start.
What the actual fuck? So you think clicking "Flag Comment" on this very page makes a mockery of the First Amendment? You are a dorkus maximus.
Are we allowed to call someone a "dorkus maximus" here under the TOS?
And if not, is the fact that it is true an affirmative defense?
I 1,000% predicted that this would be the MAGA defense: actually, it's better that Trump says that he hates the constitution, because he's being honest!
“What Turnip said is indefensible, but it’s not that big of a deal because Democrats.”
Brett Bellmore, ladies and gentlemen. He’s here all day, all week, every day, every week.
WHATABOUT!!! WHATABOUT!!! WHATABOUT!!!
Orange Man says thing which, while dumb, is impossible and has an infinity x 1000% probability of not happening.
Hair on fire response!
While Senescent Joe plans to strip Amuricans 1st, 2d, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th amendment rights, and I'm not too hopeful about the 3rd.
"an infinity x 1000% probability of not happening."
What in the world does that mean except that you know little or nothing about mathematics.
The Orange Clown grows more destructive of the American social fabric every day.
"What in the world does that mean "
Calm down, its just a nonsense number referring to the zero chance of happening.
After this would you still vote for him?
Sure, if he is the nominee. He closed on killing Roe off.
So, one vote here for terminating the constitution.
Yay! more minority, I mean "Disadvantaged" babies! (and all exhaling CO2, and excreting umm, "other" waste matter) might have to reconsider my loyalties.
I've never voted in Republican primaries, and I don't plan to in 2024. But if Donald Trump is the nominee, sure, I'll vote for him.
To the above commenters yelling "Whataboutism!":
There are two major parties in the U.S. If one party's presumed presidential candidate says something stupid, doesn't it make sense to compare that to the pronouncements (and actions!) of the other party's presumed candidate -- the guy who's currently president? Joe Biden is the worst president this country has ever had. If I have to choose between him and Trump, it's no contest.
Another vote for terminating the Constitution.
Weird how many people I blocked are the ones not bothering to play footsie with their authoritarianism.
It's almost as crazy as the people in 2016 who predicted that if Trump lost in 2020 he would refuse to concede the election and try to prevent the transfer of power!
He was just emulating that "Woke" Georgia Governor (in her own mind anyway) Stacy Abrahams
Not to mention the people who predicted that if he tried to do so he would fail.
It’s like everyone was right!!
Who isn't into stress testing our Republic with live fire?
Great plan, bevis.
Who said it was my plan? Or that I supported it (remembering that I didn’t vote for Trump)? I just figured that if he tried it that the system would contain him. Which it did. And is what I said.
You are incapable of responding to what people actually say. My opinion is no different from yours on this but you’ve got try to start an argument over agreement. You’ve got issues.
How am I to take 'It’s like everyone was right!!' except as you saying it was no big deal, because those who said Trump wouldn't manage end our republic were right this time.
Otherwise why even make that post?
1. The people that predicted that he would try to avoid transferring power in the event he lost were right.
2. The people that thought that if he tried it he would fail were right.
This isn’t rocket science.
I don't see why you bother with the 'those who predicted he would fail are right' unless you're making something of the fact that he failed.
I don't think that's very good risk analysis, myself.
My profession was not not rocket science, but information security & privacy, with a sub-specialization of cybersecurity risk assessment and management (coincidentally, my consulting clients included NASA’s Ames Research Center, Lewis (later Glenn) Research Center, and Jet Propulsion Laboratory; and United Launch Alliance. When I finished my presenting my Information Security for Project Managers & Application Developers course to ULA’s development shop, they gave me one of their t-shirts saying “Actually, We ARE Rocket Scientists“).
Bevis, You have just demonstrated the principle of risk assessment referred to as Teenage Risk Syndrome. That’s exemplified in the observation of the stereotypical teenager’s not-yet-completely-developed brain assessing that a dangerous action performed once without consequence, becomes less risky with the repeated experience of each succeeding successful performance. Except, of course, frequent repetition of a dangerous action greatly increases the risk, with the actual consequences often memorialized in traffic death statistics.
So, you seem to believe that the failure of a first attempted autogolpe demonstrates there was no real risk, I assume leading you to believe that each repeated autogolpe attempt lowers the risk of a negative societal consequence? You might want to think that over.
No, it isn’t Rocket Science. It’s Risk Management.
"Sure, the Uber driver drove his car off the cliff. But the airbags deployed, so most of the people in the car weren't seriously injured. What's the big deal?"
On Jan 6th, Trump said something which, while dumb, had a high probability of happening. He told Pence to ignore the constitution and prevent the certification of the electoral college.
This easily could have gone the other way, if only Pence lacked kind the kind of principles that will most certainly be lacking in any future VP candidate that shares the ticket with Trump.
He tried to destroy democracy once, and will do it again if given the chance. You know he will, and are bound and determined to give him that chance. The fact that he narrowly failed last time (and it was not an infinitesimal probability) shouldn't give you any confidence that he will fail again.
"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution."
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."
--- Justice Robert H. Jackson, Terminiello v. City of Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949)
Perhaps not surprisingly, I read Trump's comments quite differently from Ilya -- I read it as asking what do you do when you have an election that was as fraudulent as the 2020 election is starting to appear having been? You do it over -- notwithstanding the rules.
The election was not fraudulent, you complete jackass.
You are correct sir! (HT E. McMahon) it was stolen fair and square, just like JFK did in 0-60'
These guys are just talking this as a given. Just like the JFK conspiracy and aliens in Roswell.
Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks, as far as interpreting that sentence. It matters what the author thought.
That's what I came to say -- unless there is video of Trump speaking this, where you can here his pauses and stresses and intonation, that statement can have an entirely different meaning.
That's the setup, the background. Whether you agree with him or not is besides the point -- he believes it, it is his statement, and it is the basis for the second part.
Here he refers to massive fraud which itself leads to termination of all rules, even in the Constitution.
He doesn't say the fraud justifies terminating all rules. He says it leads to termination of all rules.
As I began, without hearing him speak this sentence with all its clues, it is impossible to prove either interpretation is correct. But the revolutionary interpretation is not the natural one, it is only the one his political opponents want to spread.
Setting aside the fact that this would not be a valid interpretation in any language resembling English, Trump didn't say "leads to" at all. He said "allows for."
Stop quibbling like a lawyer and think for yourself. The fraud enables termination of all rules, it supports termination of all rules, etc etc etc.
Nothing in what he said means he wants to terminate all rules.
That's literally the only possible interpretation. (Or, more specifically, all rules that keep him from being president.)
"I demand that people do X! The fact that Y happened allows for X to happen!"
It is literally not the only possible interpretation; I showed an alternative.
Where, as here, plain meaning is apparent, there is nothing to interpret. https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/109449803240069864
"when you have an election that was as fraudulent as the 2020 election is starting to appear"
It has never appeared unusually fraudulent and after over 2 years and dozens and dozens of lawsuits exactly none of the assertions of the "election was stolen" fools have been validated or supported by the slightest bit of evidence. In fact, most of them have been proven to be nonsense and the ones that haven't, can't, because they are so completely divorced from reality.
No trucks full of filled-put ballots. No legions of dead people voting. No conspiracy to change election laws to allow illegal votes. None of the dozens of other Q-Anon/Pizzagate-level conspiracies that have been invented by those who can't accept that a bad President didn't get reelected.
When you think that an election is fraudulent, you prove it or you accept that you are wrong. There isn't a third rational option that says, "Continue to deny that you lost. Your followers are in too deep to be willing to walk away now.". That option is insane.
“Turnip didn’t mean what he said. He meant…” is one of the oldest genres of Turnip fanfic.
"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution."
Help me out here, I went to college so long ago there was a rifle and pistol club, and we kept arms in our dorm rooms.
English was a required course for all students.
Is that sentence calling for suspension of the US Constitution, or saying that the actions taken during the last election were themselves were the termination of the rules?
He's saying the massive fraud in 2020 justifies disregarding the constitutional provisions saying that elections are held every four years and Congress has the final word. He is apparently offering us the choice between proclaiming him president now (contrary to the counting by Congress) or holding an immediate election which he will win (contrary to the every-four-years rule).
The “massive fraud in 2020?”
What massive fraud, John?
No, it’s saying the fraud itself is trying to terminate all rules.
ETA: Here, let's try something different.
Nothing in that says that the civilian authorities should shut down services after a hurricane; it says that the hurricane itself can lead to shutting down those services.
Haha no that’s not what he meant, if you look at his full message.
Look forward to the usual pattern. ‘Trump didn’t mean that!’ Followed by Trump explaining he absolutely meant that and more.
You may not notice since have not much dignity left, but it will be amusing nonetheless.
Sorry, your point got kind of lost somewhere. Is there additional text to support your interpretation, to refute mine? Is there a recording of him saying this, where the vocal cues can enlighten us?
The fact no one has shown such additional material is proof enough there is none that supports the idea of him demanding insurrection.
Everyone else, even the Trumpy folks around here, managed to pick up what Trump was laying down.
Feel free to ignore all the other parts of what Trump said, and die on the hill of ‘Trump didn’t mean that!’ Your desperation to deny who you've hitched your wagon to is pretty funny, as I said.
Hey Alphabet - "Unprecedented fraud requires unprecedented solutions!"
I can only presume this is about like voter ID, right?
" A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution."
I read the above as that what Trump is saying is that the massive fraud itself was allowing the termination of all rules and regulations, and articles, even those in the Constitution. Not that the response should be a termination of the Constitution. I do not see how anyone reads it otherwise. Trump was not calling for himself to violate the Constitution, he was saying it had already been terminated by the massive fraud by others.
Oh Cindy (and Long), your brains have been fried by all the kool-aid. Trump is plainly suggesting terminating the Constitution so that he can be reinstated.
Do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.
He wants to throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER or have a NEW ELECTION. Well, how could you possibly do any of those things? Oh: the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. That’s how. That’s his proposed solution. But wait, isn't that stupidly illegal? Well, in his theory, it's not illegal because A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows it.
I’m sorry to be the bearer of the bad news that your cult idol is a fucked-up, un-American narcissist who never loved you, never loved the Constitution, and only loves himself.
It's calling for termination of the Constitution. Basic reading comprehension at about a 5th Grade level. It's great that you noticed that English was mandatory at your school. A pity that you managed to skip it, as reading and comprehension would certainly have been part of that curriculum.
"allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, EVEN THOSE found in the Constitution.” [emphasis added]
See? If your bizarre reading were accurate; Trump would have written something like, "...allows for the term. of all rules...BUT NOT of the Constitution itself, and our beloved Constitution was violated in the [fill in whatever batshit-crazy election conspiracy theory you prefer] stolen election."
You *do* see the difference, yes? If not, I'll try to find a 5th grader to explain it to you.
That's one potential reading. There are others.
I love that you're trying to defend Trump on this. It proves you have zero credibility. Which we already knew, but it's nice to have it demonstrated so succinctly.
I love that your frothing hatred blinds you to any alternative readings.
I love that your cultish hard-on blinds you to the nature of your leader. How many excuses can you come up with for him? Always one more.
I love that your blind statism makes you think that he is my leader, that you cannot see anything other than "if you're not my friend, you're my enemy."
I love that your alias renders (appropriately) as "A ASS ..." in certain fonts, including the one used on this site when replying to a comment.
Here it is:
So, with the revelation of MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD & DECEPTION in working closely with Big Tech Companies, the DNC, & the Democrat Party, do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. Our great “Founders” did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!
He is plainly saying that it is permitted to terminate the Constituion, so he can be put back in power.
Yes, he is, and screw that. If he somehow managed to pull it off, and I was standing in the Oval office with a gun, I'd put a slug through his brain and sleep like a baby. That's how I feel about what he said.
And enough Republicans feel the same way that Trump just took his chances of the 2024 nomination and flushed them.
Now if you could only feel the same way about the Democrats' determination to violate explicit constitutional rights.
Oh look a Trump voter wants to lecture others about respecting constitutional rights.
Oh, but you'll vote for him.
We all know that, Brett.
So maybe fuck off with your usual Democrats are acting in bad faith telepath again.
Disagreeing with you on the Constitution is not the same as violating rights. You can't understand this. And this is why you vote Trump.
enough Republicans feel the same way that Trump just took his chances of the 2024 nomination and flushed them.
Yeah. That's why they are jumping all over Trump.
As of Sunday morning, Republican leaders, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California, as well as the Republican National Committee had not publicly commented on Trump’s post. NBC News reached out to spokespeople for McConnell, McCarthy and the RNC for comment Saturday but did not receive any response.
This is known as "Not interrupting somebody while they're self-destructing". Why distract people from Trump's shit-show by commenting on it?
This is known as not pissing off the large group of Trumpists that still wield massive amounts of clout in the GOP and could successfully primary a few of us before Trump either starts his revolution or dies of Orange dye #11.
No he isn't. He is saying that the fraud itself leads to terminating rules.
If you want to read the actual post instead of excerpts from it or comments about it, it is here: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/109449803240069864
Personally, I don't think Twitter's collusion with Democrats rises to the "massive fraud" level. Twitter does deserve an owner like Musk though. That's the sort of punishment the constitution allows. Maybe make up for past sins by letting Twitter tip the scales to DeSantis next time.
I think calling what happened in 2020 "massive fraud" is a sign of our poverty of language in discussing election problems. I'm willing to accept as likely that it wasn't, strictly speaking, "fraudulent" votes that swung the election Biden's way.
But the Democrats having the equivalent of state run media working for them even when they're out of power? Multiple cases in key states where election laws were waived by parties other than the legislature? The increasingly widespread use of practices that only a few years ago were widely acknowledged to be disreputable gateways to fraud, such as ballot harvesting?
It could easily fall short of being a legitimate outcome without being a fraudulent outcome.
This does not defend Trump's remarks. It was too late, legally, to do anything about this crap long before January 6th, let alone a couple days ago. And if Trump genuinely thinks the 2020 election can be set aside so he can be installed in the White house?
I'm not so much afraid for our democracy, as waving goodbye to his failing sanity.
But. Something has to change about the way our elections are conducted, or sooner or later elections will be replaced with gunfire. You can't run a democracy in a way that a third of the population doesn't believe is honest!
You're worried about Trump's sanity? Only now?
You can’t run a democracy in a way that a third of the population doesn’t believe is honest!
Then maybe you and your pals should stop spreading that BS. We've heard your tirade about how state courts shouldn't interpret state constitutions, and how the media went in the bag and the rest.
Fuck off with all that.
"You’re worried about Trump’s sanity? Only now?"
Yeah, it's called "waiting for evidence". You know, like you're not going to admit Biden has dementia until he fails that cognitive function test he flatly refuses to take?
"Fuck off with all that."
Yeah, let's see if you can run a democracy a third of the population think is a fraud. Maybe "Fuck off with all that." will change people's minds. Somehow I doubt it.
What's got you so afraid of election security you'd rather have a third of the population convinced democracy is a sham, than have voter ID and in person voting?
'Yeah, let’s see if you can run a democracy a third of the population think is a fraud.'
So finally you agree with Biden about Trump and his fraud lies being a threat to democracy.
They're a threat because of Democrats' destructive response being exactly calibrated to convince a lot of people they're true.
Like I keep saying, it doesn't matter if you didn't stack the deck, once you refuse to let it be cut, you're never convincing the other guy you didn't stack it.
Refusing to permit ballot security measures rationally convinces people you're rigging elections, and it doesn't matter how certain YOU are that they weren't rigged.
In about the lowest trust election since the civil war, you morons insisted on making ad hoc changes to election administration, and now you're reaping the natural result of that.
Trump's lies, and their acceptance by Republicans, are all the Democrats' fault. Got it, Brett.
Try answering what was posed instead of just repeating talking points like a parrot.
We refuse to accept any of the proof that shows that elections are secure, that 2020 was as secure as previous elections, and that Donald Trump lost. If you want us to believe any elections in the future, you need to admit we are right and take unnecessary steps to prevent the widespread election fraud that never happened.
If you think the above position is reasonable, congratulations. You are delusional.
Blaming the Democrats beause Republicans go along with Trump's lies? You're gonna vote for him.
let’s see if you can run a democracy a third of the population think is a fraud.
'Truth doesn't matter, you need to kowtow to my side's childish tantrum!'
Yeah. nope. Reality has got to matter.
Indulging the fraud idiots, and enablers like you, kill the Republic surer than telling you all to piss up a rope and try something.
Yeah, that's right, people don't act on the basis of Platonic TRUTH, they act on the basis of their beliefs. They do, and YOU do, too. You can insist on ignoring that, and it's just going to bite you.
And, again, the refusal to permit election security measures is rationally viewed as evidence they're needed. Doesn't matter one bit how certain you are they're wrong, that's the way it works.
I don't claim know what's true, but I do know what's bullshit.
And thus we come again to your refusal to close the door on birtherism.
No, delegitimizing the elections is not rational. It's you rationalizing allowing some truly awful stuff.
Truly awful stuff like people showing ID to vote, voting in person, banning practices like ballot harvesting that only a few years ago were agreed to be disreputable.
Truly awful stuff like condoning others (but never you!) denying the 2020 election counts because not enough people agree with you on voter ID.
And pre-rationalizing whatever happens in 2024 from playing with that fire.
Don't try and revector this to a policy discussion. You know what this is.
Your eternal refrain: "Don't you dare talk about anything but what *I* want you to talk about!"
Yes, I do like it when you stay on topic. And I call out when you try and substitute the current discussion with a new one.
What a tyrant I am!
Elections like what just happened in Arizona, Michigan, and Georgia kill the Republic. And also elections like in 2020, too.
Katie Hobbs and her charges in her official capacity as SOS contacts twitter to remove posts about her and her political opponents, disrupt election day votes which are heavily Republican, and then threaten counties with felonies if they don’t declare her the winner.
That’s what threatens our Republic.
"Elections like what just happened in Arizona, Michigan, and Georgia kill the Republic. And also elections like in 2020, too."
No, people who believe demonstrably untrue things about valid and secure elections kill the Republic. You believe demonstably untrue things.
Re: Voter ID
Joe Manchin tried to get a bipartisan election reform bill, which he drafted an offered as a substitute for the Democrats' For the People Act. It included a voter ID provision.
Stacey Abrams said she supported the Machin proposal, saying that while it would mandate voter ID, it would require states to accept widely available forms of voter ID and therefore wasn't a voter suppression bill. “I support voter identification. I reject restrictive voter ID designed to keep people out of the process.”
Senator Roy Blunt announced his opposition: “I actually think that when Stacey Abrams immediately endorsed Senator Manchin's proposal, it became the Stacey Abrams substitute, not the Joe Manchin substitute.” This suggests Blunt was at least considering supporting the bill until Stacey Abrams' statement made him realize that the voter ID provisions wouldn't be useful for voter suppression.
If ten Republican Senators had been willing to break a filibuster and allow Manchin's proposal to be brought up for a vote, we would have voter ID today.
I don't think that requiring voter ID would have much effect on the third of the population convinced that democracy is a sham. If voter ID requirements were determinative, this third of the population would have believed that democracy was a sham all along, not just after Republicans figured out that voter ID requirements were a useful tool for voter suppression. Furthermore, that third of the population is roughly the Fox News audience, which mostly believes what Fox News tells them regardless of the facts.
"is a sign of our poverty of language in discussing election problems."
It is not the language that is impoverished. English is the richest of the worlds languages.
It is the Orange Clown's thought processes and his moralense that are lacking
This is incoherent gibberish. If they're out of power, then it's definitionally the opposite of "state run media," not "the equivalent" of it.
And that literally has nothing to do with the integrity of the election, any more than Hannity working as the p.r. team for the Trump campaign does.
Once again: happened in every single state and was 100% legitimate.
Well, in that case let's just shoot the people who are lying to that 1/3 of the population and making them falsely think that. Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.
100% legitimate? I mean, the state supreme court in my state said that the election officials violated state law by allowing drop boxes. How could it be legitimate if it violated state law?
Legal votes were cast by legal voters in the methods that were legal at the time their vote was cast.
Do you have a reason why those people should be disenfranchised and the person who got fewer votes should be deckared the winner?
Your complaint boils down to "more people voted for the guy I didn't want to win than the guy I did want to win, so we should find a way to ignore that".
"Legal votes were cast by legal voters in the methods that were legal at the time their vote was cast."
No, the state supreme court said the drop boxes violated state law. That's not "legal at the time their votes were cast", that's "elections officials were violating the law at the time their votes were cast".
It isn’t retroactive, Brett. And the court said there was no illegitimate choices made during the election.
So you are wrong, and your delegitimizing the election is wrong, and you should read the fucking opinion before you go off again.
But you’ve been declaring the election legally illegitimate from well before the election, so you won’t bother. Because while you have enough self regard not to go full FRAUD!!! you are still under the thrall of that same antidemocratic impulse that has trouble dealing with losing an election.
I expect you to be worse in 2024.
Right, but that skips over a much more fundamental point that I keep trying to explain to Brett, that he fails to understand because autism tells him that something is a “Rule”: rules for processing ballots have no bearing on whether the votes themselves are legitimate.
The sole issues in deciding whether an election is legitimate are whether (a) eligible voters were able to vote; and (b) ineligible voters were not.
Everything else is just administrative trivia.
EDITED TO ADD: If a rule were not followed, that might be grounds for reprimanding or firing an elections official — though certainly not here, where the rule was unclear — but it's not grounds for declaring any votes, or the outcome, illegitimate.
According to the law of my state, when it comes to absentee ballots: "Ballots cast in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be counted. Ballots counted in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be included in the certified result of any election." That's black-letter law. I get why it's ignored, though; it's unfair to voters if a election officials leads them astray.
Davy C - no court has said their analysis is retroactively delegitimizing anything. That's all you.
Twitter didn't collude with Democrats. A shoddy October Surprise got treated with overwhelming skepticism and Republicans are still mad at everyone but themselves for being so shoddy.
How generous of you. Free clue: even if "collusion with Democrats" were actually an accurate description of events, it's not minor fraud, either. Or any fraud at all. It doesn't have any of the elements of fraud. It has nothing to do with fraud.
Trump wasn't defeated in 2020.
True; he was humiliated.
No, to be fair he beat himself by being a whiny, grievance-filled megalomaniac who did a terrible job as President. I mean, c'mon. He's the only President in history to never get above 50% approval. Not once in his entire (single) term.
[Off-topic].
Today, in the news, are reports that Trump deliberately failed to report a loan from a company tied to North Korea.
Folks, you can't make this shit up. 🙂
I'll care about that when you care about the Hunter to Joe corruption pipeline.
“you can’t make this shit up”
Sure, you just did.
You have no evidence it was “intentional”. It was not a personal/guaranteed loan so probably didn’t have to be disclosed. “ties to North Korea” is vague and just guilt by association, the Daewoo conglomerate went bankrupt in 1999 so this looks like a loan to a spin off, Daewoo Engineering & Construction, which is a major South Korean construction company.
I’m sure this will really close the walls in on ole Donnie though.
Bob,
I don't disagree that this puts Trump at zero added legal risk . . . Trump got good enough legal advice to make sure the loan was to the Trump Organization. So, no absolute requirement to report it.
What was so funny (and not the least bit surprising) is that Trump was willing to get such a loan, and then proceeded to hide it from even his closest political advisors (at least, based on the initial reporting...his consultants from back in 2016, so far, are all saying versions of, "Well, this is news to me."). Is anybody *really* surprised at this? (Of course not.) If it later comes out that he got loans from banks tied to Putin and/or Russia, would we really be surprised? (Of course not.)
I think that Trump has the moral filter of Jeffrey Dahmer. That's my takeaway. (And this is coming from someone who financially supported Trump in his first campaign...to my everlasting embarrassment.)
Hey, you seem pretty smart. What do you think “10% for the Big Guy” meant when Hunter was making that $1B deal with the Chinese government?
Anything you want it to mean, apparently.
I think it meant 10% for the Big Guy, but I guess that's just because I'm a fan of words and stuff like that.
That could just be Hunter Biden’s penis, given how desperate the Republicans were to get photographic evidence of it onto Twitter.
It meant nothing; (a) that's not what it said; (b) there was no deal; and (c) Joe Biden was a private citizen at the time.
That North Korean company that Hunter B's a "Special Consultant" for?
Sure you can. The media and Dems have been making things up re Trump for six years now.
"There are reports"
Sure there are. And there are pee tapes and visits to Prague too.
The important thing is to immediately declare it's all lies.
That way you can look like a knee-jerk partisan jackass if it turns out to be true.
Reserving judgements is for fools - real men disbelieve all and post about it every time!
I simply pointed out the vast number of incorrect reports about Trump activities in the past.
And any "reports" need to be verified extensively.
You simply waived your hands furiously to attack the credibility of this report. Everyone can see what you did, lol.
What, exactly, do the hysterical sorts imagine Trump is asking for?
My impression is that he's expecting some court, or maybe a vote of Congress, or I don't know, a column of outraged citizens marching on Washington, to remove Biden and install him as President for the next 2 years.
There's no mechanism for that, no support for that, but I think at this point he's lost his grip on such things.
Could happen, when there's another "9-11" attack, only bigger and messier, and turns out the terrorists came in under H-1B Visas.
Setting the groundwork for his election campaign, maybe. He promises to terminate the Constiution in order to finally and properly root out all the corruption, fraud and child sacrifice, and execute the ringleaders.
"Trump 2024: No more pizza restaurants!!!" (They're a hotbed for child sex rings, as we all know by now.)
They've moved on to drag shows and lgtbq teachers and trans people and their families, and it's working, it's mainstream now, and they all think 2020 was fraud, and Biden set the FBI on Trump, so why shouldn't this work as a rallying cry to defeat so much evil that is protected by rights and the law?
Biden 2024: "I deserve it because my son Bo was killed in Afghanistan!!"
Any Actuaries out there? who has the better chance of being alive on 1-20-2025 Senescent Joe or Hunter?
What, exactly, do the hysterical sorts imagine Trump is asking for?
Well, if there are no concrete action items, you can delegitimize our Republic all you want and it's awesome!
Some people...
"What, exactly, do the hysterical sorts imagine Trump is asking for?"
Um, the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. I think he was pretty explicit about this.
dwshelf — Same thing Trump is always asking for. Money. Practically every crazy thing he says in public can be put down to that, and made sense of. He just needs one preposterous outrage after another to make his ever-diminishing cohort of suckers send him cash.
That, by the way, is the worst and most threatening feature of Trumpism. He has pointed the way to use fascist advocacy as a profit-making enterprise. That will attract imitators. It already has. Alex Jones. Fox News. Arguably, Twitter under new management.
Dude wakes from an apparently deep sleep, immediately opens an article he doesn’t read, moves to the comments, which he also doesn’t read, and asks “What’s going on?”
This is the winner of comments. No further comments are necessary.
HOW TRUMP SAYS, "PLEASE VOTE FOR DESANTIS"
I think this signals pretty clearly that Trump doesn't expect to win by an election. He's staking out his own revolutionary path, and ceding the ground of regular process to Ron DeSantis.
Well, that's one way to push every possible supporter away, I suppose. This reminds me of that great Nixon quote, "When the President does it, it's not illegal."
Tricky Penis, always pointing out the obvious unpleasant truths, c'mon (man) you don't have to say the baby's ugly, people can see!!
And which wasn't completely accurate, should have been,
"When a DemoKKKrat President does it, it's not ill-legal"
see, JFK, LBJ, heck, every D POTUS since Hairy Truman, at least FDR made the Congress declare war (finally)
Not sure DeSantis offers such a comprehensive policy vision that will allow him to drain the swamp, defeat the Deep State, execute all groomers, close the borders and restore Christianity to the heart of US government.
Not every possible supporter... he's still got Ye and Fuentes.
In fairness, Trump is far from the only recent president who tried to circumvent constitutional limits on his authority when they get in the way of his agenda. President Biden is doing so right now with his massive loan forgiveness plan, which is a Trumpian attempt to usurp Congress' power of the purse. George W. Bush and Barack Obama also committed their share of constitutional sins.
You have inadvertently hit on why Trump is so attractive to so many. Think of Trump as like a fun-house mirror -- he reflects a distorted view of reality, but it's still reality.
So three other recent presidents have trashed the Constitution. Little is said in opposition, and sometimes they are even applauded for doing something noble. (There are those who think that Biden's loan forgiveness bought his party enough votes in the mid-term elections to stem the red tsunami. So trashing the Constitution is not only acceptable, but helps you get ahead in politics!) So why shouldn't Trump push the envelope and "suspend" the Constitution so he can be president?
Trump may be an amoral clown, but the phenomenum of Trump highlights something wrong with our body politic. Maybe if we take the Constitution seriously for everyone, on all ends of the political spectrum, Trump would lose his appeal.
he reflects a distorted view of reality, but it’s still reality.
Um, that's not what a distorted view of reality means.
You want to have it both ways. No. Pick a fucking lane.
No, I will not descend to simple-minded our-side-or-your-side thinking, as you wish to impress on me. I despise Trump, but his success and popularity are a sign that something is wrong with the body politic. My parroting "Trump Bad, Trump Bad" like a mindless twit does nothing to advance the greater good.
his success and popularity are a sign that something is wrong with the body politic.
Yes, but you seem to be determined to pin it all on the Democrats, which strikes me as odd.
On loan forgiveness, btw, isn't that going to SCOTUS? And if they disallow it, which I imagine they will, do you think Biden will accept that? Wouldn't accepting a court ruling show respect for the Constitution?
Well, at least you agree with me in part. I guess Sarcastro would criticize you for not "staying in lane."
And I agree, Republican administrations are also guilty. Anyone who gets in power tries to get more power. That's human nature.
As to the loan forgiveness, even assuming SCOTUS strikes it down, that will be years later, and meanwhile Biden managed to buy enough votes with it. The president and Congress are sworn to uphold the Constitution as much as SCOTUS is. The attitude of "let's do what we want and then SCOTUS will sort it out down the road" is part of the problem.
Sad strawman. I actually can figure out bernard11's position here.
You, on the other hand, can't seem to bring yourself to condemn Trump and those who still support him after this.
Which yeah, I'm going to call you out for being morally craven on that - you clearly know Trump's bad, but you dissemble to some hand-waiving about the body politic.
Actually, voters voting for a clearly bad thing is bad, and it's the voter's fault. Maybe there are explanations, but those do not mitigate that supporting Trump is at this point being against the republic.
Hope I didn't make it too simple for you!
What a joke. What do I have to be "craven" about? I am an anonymous poster whose opinion no one cares about. I could condemn Trump or his supporters all day long, and nothing would happen to me.
Here is a clue. I did not vote for Trump in 2016 because I knew he was an opportunistic scum bag not worthy of the office. (Nor did I vote for Clinton, for similar reasons.) In 2020 I voted for him, not that I do not know he stinks, but because I thought the alternative was worse. And I have been proven correct. In spades. (If one can still use that expression.)
At this point, though, I would not vote for Trump if he ran against Joseph Stalin. Too unhinged and too willing to call out violence to get his way. Most of the Republican base realizes by now he is only in it for himself, and will bring the party down.
That said, his supporters have a legitimate grievance, which he has been able to exploit to get their support. The fact that all you can say is "Trump bad" simply fuels the fire.
In 2020 I voted for him, not that I do not know he stinks, but because I thought the alternative was worse.
Not great!
At this point, though, I would not vote for Trump if he ran against Joseph Stalin...Most of the Republican base realizes by now he is only in it for himself, and will bring the party down.
.
That's something.
That said,
Ah here it comes.
his supporters have a legitimate grievance
Yep, back to fuckery.
As I said, craven. Glad your personal choices are not loathsome. But you are condoning others with the same choices. Which remains screwed up.
Again, you can understand why people are doing a bad thing and yet not call their grievances legitimate. Like, I get why there are drug dealers, but I wouldn't say they've made a legit choice.
His success is due to the GOP establishment running a bait and switch on their own base, which was exposed in the mid 90's, when the dog finally caught the car: The Republicans ended up in control and their taking a dive became too obvious to hide.
The GOP has been embroiled in civil war since, with the activist base trying to take control away from the establishment, while the establishment tries to hold onto power any way they can. Subverting any movement (Like the Tea party) the base puts together. Deliberately losing elections when a challenger beats the establishment pick in a primary. Cooperating with the Democrats when they must.
Trump looked to the Republican base like a useful wrecking ball to use against an establishment they hated. That's all. And they got to liking him because, although he didn't really agree with them on much, he at least "danced with the one what brung him", he wasn't actively trying to betray the people who'd elected him.
But he's about to find out that wrecking balls get thrown away when they crack.
GOP voters, Brett, have agency.
https://thenib.com/fault-right/
Literally not one word of that ever happened.
The fact that you think "cooperating with the Democrats" is a count of an indictment is illustrative, though. Obviously Democrats, like Republicans, have many terrible ideas. (Sometimes the same ones, sometimes different ones.) But if Republican politicians support bad ideas, the criticism should be, "Republican politicians shouldn't support bad ideas," not "Republican politicians should reflexively oppose everything Democrats do."
Yes, David, Republicans cooperating with Democrats to ends opposed by the people who elected them is an indictment.
Brett Speaks for the People once again.
Seems to me the Nazis were forced into it by how bad the German liberals were.
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
In the wake of the 2022 House election, the GOP has the same margin that Pelosians had at the start of the current Congress. So, I'm a bit perplexed if and why the fear the author suggests is truly present within the GOP: to be sure, nobody wants to be associated with a maverick until they know he will succeed... but that's human nature unrelated to politics. A bit less than 40% of likely voters recently polled support Biden policies, a bit more than 10MM actual voters favored the GOP in the most recent election, and Democrat vote fraud was detected (and is being prosecuted) in more than 14 districts -- those simply aren't things to fear.
It’s called rope-a-dope. I can’t believe that Trump’s opponents haven’t figured that out by now.
Every time he says something outrageous, it causes numerous stories, and keeps Trump’s name on the front page. In 2016, he was so good at that that nobody could even remember the names of the other Republican candidates by primary day.
The counter to rope-a-dope is to ignore everything he says and not report it, and not comment on it.
'Please don't notice the awful things the guy leading the Republicans keeps saying and doing.'
Leading the Republican party? All he is leading is what they serve for lunch at Mar-A-Lago.
LOL, He's the putative nominee right now, BL.
Keep tapdancing.
You are utterly incorrect. The majority do not want him, and it is increasingly clear he will not be nominated.
It's true he has a big following that others feel beholden to appease. But, as I said above, most realize now that he is an albatross around the GOP neck.
We shall see how your prediction turns out. But in the meantime, the GOP absolutely defends him and his words carry more weight than anyone else.
That's not what a rope-a-dope is.
But more importantly, yes, you do point out when the putative nominee of a major political party pulls shit like this. It's news.
He wouldn’t be the putative nominee of a major political party if we ignored his attention-seeking. You’d think the country would be bored of it after seven years. But to this day, everyone still loves talking about Trump!
The only people who seem to have figured it out are the Republican establishment folks like McConnell. They’re trying as hard as they can to just ignore him so he’ll go away. I wish the Democrats would join in. But I think the Democrats want him to be the nominee, so now they’re incentivized to egg him on. Ugh, it’s so sad.
No, he’d still have a lot of support if I ignored him.
The GOP ignoring Trump plan, how is that working out?
This isn’t the schoolyard. Hell, that never worked there either.
You're right it's not the schoolyard. Trump isn't bullying you personally.
No, he’d still have a lot of support if I ignored him.
This is the same reason people don't vote. I assume you vote. So what gives?
I do vote. But ignoring Trump is not an election; he doesn't need a majority or something to be relevant.
Every click counts!
Ok, now do the Contracts Clause v. rent control, the Commerce Clause and Wickard, the 9th and 10th Amendments and the Republican form of government Clause- all of which leftist judges have written out of the Constitution.
Policy stuff you think is unconstitutional is not the same as explicitly saying lets tear up the constitution.
Unless you think you have access to ultimate truth or something.
Unless rent control actually lowers agreed to rents it has nothing to do with the contracts clause.
And Wickard was rightly decided.
As for the rest, I don't understand your complaint.
You're right, of course. It's the eviction moratorium that violated the contracts clause.
The eviction moratorium was imposed by CDC, a federal agency. The Contracts Clause only constrains the states.
Now do the Contracts Clause and Blaisdell (you know, the one that held that when the constitution says states may not pass laws impairing contracts, it means they may not pass laws impairing contracts unless it's an emergency).
It was a coin flip on whether (1) no Volokh Conspirator would breach the Right-Wing Wall of Silence with respect to a Republican presidential candidate's denigration of the Constitution or (2) one Conspirator, likely Prof. Somin (although this development is bad enough that I sensed it might provoke Prof. Kerr), might have the courage to address this point.
Somin wins. The other Conspirators (save the ones who abandoned ship already) are, as is customary, the losers.
Carry on, clingers.
Let's go with the most generous interpretation for Trump. Always an interesting things to do.
Hypothetically speaking, let's assume there was a massive "fraud" where the vote totals were deliberately manipulated. Hypothetically, just for the sake of argument. It doesn't have to be Trump, it could be a different case. And it can be utterly blatant, if figured out later. For example, let's say there was indisputable proof that Joe Billionaire bribed 10 key state officials in 3 key states to alter the vote, and that changed the election. Joe, and the 10 key officials were tried, found guilty, and convicted. But not until after January 21st was it discovered.
Under the rules of the Constitution, that actually may not matter. Remember, the electors choose the President. Not the vote, and not the people (directly). So, if the electors choose Biden, under the Constitution, then Biden is president. Even if the electors were chosen under potentially fraudulent circumstances. There's no provision in the Constitution to reverse things. In order to reverse things, you'd literally have to "break" the Constitution. (Or impeach the President, but that may be difficult).
So, here's the question for the audience as a whole. Let's say the given above hypothetical example holds. What's the fix? Assuming the President couldn't be impeached.
There is none. The Constitution does not provide for every contingency.
What if the US were invaded and could not hold elections? Who would be president? Who would be a Congressperson?
No anwer there.
Well, let's look at the options available, and what may happen.
The most obvious place to look is Article 2. Specifically the clause
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors"
Let's take that clause, in the wake of the hypothesized fraud (as above). The loser of the election alleges fraud, and brings the lawsuit before the Supreme Court. The case is simple...the electors were not appointed in the Manner the legislature directed. As such, those electors were invalid (despite having cast their votes and the President already being in office).
Now, the SCOTUS has an interesting choice. Could they rationalize saying that the electoral college count was invalid, because the electors were not actually chosen in the manner the legislature directed? And that the President, despite being sworn into office...wasn't actually President? Would that "violate" the Constitution? Or would such an "extreme interpretation" be viable, due to the fraud and that the election was clearly manipulated?
"The loser of the election alleges fraud, and brings the lawsuit before the Supreme Court."
How would such a suit fall within the original jurisdiction of the Supreme Court? The loser of the election would need to bring suit in a federal district court or in a state court having jurisdiction.
Assume for a moment that it rapidly reaches that level via the appeals process
Well, personally I'd favor .45 LC, but other calibers are promising.
No joke: In the scenario you propose, where the President is publicly known to have stolen the election, and Congress won't do anything about it, there's not much left to do but start shooting. The alternative is kissing democracy goodbye.
Disaffected, on-the-spectrum, right-wing bigots think and talk about shooting their betters -- the mainstreamers, victors in the culture war -- with remarkable regularity.
Thank goodness they are all-talk assholes who haven't stuck with or done much of anything in life, and aren't about to change that now.
Carry on, clingers. Until you are replaced, that is.
Next do what if the Democrats are harvesting adrenochrome from kidnapped children under a pizza place, what should you do? Just another fun hypothetical!
So, here’s the question for the audience as a whole. Let’s say the given above hypothetical example holds. What’s the fix? Assuming the President couldn’t be impeached.
Why should we assume that the President couldn't be impeached? That sounds like the most obvious fix to me.
It's an obvious fix, sure. But we live in partisan times, so it's not assured it would happen.
And you'd need to impeach both the President and Vice President realistically, putting the President in the hands of the Speaker of the House.
Assume (hypothetically), that this "massive Fraud" occurred, and the proper response was to impeach both Biden and Harris. And that to "make things right", Trump was placed as Speaker of the House. (Fun fact, you don't need to be a representative to be Speaker). That would put Trump in line to be President, when Biden and Harris were impeached.
Democrats in the Senate go "There may have been fraud. But there's no conviction of Biden. He may not have known. And he was legally sworn in. But we can't have Trump as President. He's a danger to the entire Republic. Even if there was "fraud" in the election, what's done is done. I won't vote to put Trump in office, which is what this impeachment vote would do.
What you seem to be saying is that there would be no way to obtain an objective "jury" to try the falsely elected President. And that things could be so dramatically divided and divided so evenly and completely that both sides would have overwhelming incentive to stay in line with their most strident followers rather than to seek any kind of compromise. In your hypothetical, Republicans could select someone else to be Speaker if it would get enough Democrats to vote to convict.
But what you're still doing is trying to imagine a scenario where there should be enough evidence to satisfy people with any objectivity left in them that the election was 'stolen', but that members of Congress of the party of the 'thief' would still act entirely out of partisanship. How could that happen? There should still be enough voters that aren't committed partisans to pressure those on the side of the fraudster to bow to the evidence and reality, right?
Or are you saying that our democracy is already so broken, that each party is completely beholden to the 30-40% of the country that loves them (or hates the opposition). And that both parties no longer even try to obtain true majority support. If so, then we have a much bigger problem than fraud.
Not only has Trump defined deviancy down, he’s brought most of the VC commentariat down with him.
Amazing to see it proven again and again that there is no line.
I'm ok with reevaluating the Constitution.
Yeah, you want to go with the Confederate States of America, so maybe this isn't really your conversation.
But he's also being dishonest; Trump was not proposing to "reevaluate" the Constitution. He was proposing to throw it out. If Trump had proposed a constitutional amendment to prevent this (though what "this" is is unclear) from happening again, that would be one thing. But he proposed "terminating" it.
I didn't say Trump was proposing this, only that I'd be open to it. If we are going to dwell on deciphering Trump, admittedly it sounds more like some kind of unilateral suspension of the Constitution by the executive. I oppose that. That is the sort of thing that, when coupled with lots of violence against domestic political opponents, locking up thousands of dissenting voices, military intervention at the polls, etc, is liable to get you lauded as the greatest President of all time by the academic "historians" of our day. I don't agree with it.
Nah. A strong free trade agreement and a common defense pact would probably be enough.
Also, the Bible.
You'd think it was like that! The way some people think about the magic parchment.
Which is worse . . . the roundly bigoted right-wing dumbasses who comment at the Volokh Conspiracy, or the bigot-friendly partisan hacks who attract such a shambling collection of culture war casualties to this white, male, faux libertarian blog?
And yet you keep coming back again and again. Still have not found a therapist for your inferiority issues, I see.
Spotlighting the hypocrisy, bigotry, ignorance, superstition, and cowardice that marks the Volokh Conspiracy is a blessed endeavor.
Carry on, clingers.
Twenty years ago, when the V.C. began, I wonder if the conspirators imagined that their site would be hijacked by fifth graders (thanks elnurmamedrafiev and Frank Drackman) who would rather obsess about genitals and anal sex than do their homework. Does anyone remember the good old days when serious debate occurred over important legal issues? Sigh.
This is the blog the Volokh Conspirators want and deserve.
The institutions whose franchises they have misappropriated, however, are a different story.
This development is good news for the Republican party, that Trump's self destruction is peaking earlier than expected and if it continues there is hope it may be safe to ignore him in 2024.
Ilya Somin seems to be implying that the Constitution is absolute.
Is the Constitution absolute?
Is the Constitution absolute? Unless and until it is abolished, yes.
It is the "supreme law of the land." Is that what you were asking?
According to the Constitution it certainly is. And everybody who takes public office swears an oath to uphold it, meaning that the only people who are actually allowed to regard it as NOT absolute are people who aren't in public office.
I have heard and read in the gun control debate the claim that the Second Amendment is not absolute.
What many people who make this argument do not realize is that they can not effectively argue that other provisions of the Constitution that they do like are absolute.
Why would it be more justified to ban assault weapons than to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election?
Why would either of these ideas be more justified than warrantless searches of public housing projects for contraband?
Or police punishing gangbangers without trial?
Or punishing child pornographers by torture?
There is no principle that allows people to credibly claimn that only some parts of the Constitution are absolute.
You seem to believe that the status quo is maintained by absolute rights.
Could you go into which specific you think are absolute now?
The Constitution is absolute, despite what Trump said, despite what Delgado and Stefancic said, despite what the anti-gun cult continues to say.
So freedom of speech...no exceptions for defamation, time/place/manner, obscenity?
Or for the 4A, no exigency exception? Not inevitable discovery?
Oh, and the 8th...what about torture in other countries?
IOW, rights are not absolute, and have never been thus, nor were they expected to be by the Founders.
So you disagree with the notion that the Constitution is absolute.
No - I disagree that rights are absolute. I think it's telling you keep talking about Amendments but defend as though you're talking about the Constitution generally.
The rights in Amendments are not absolute.
Some other parts of the Constitution are very general, like 'the legislative power' and can't even be thought of as absolute or no.
But some stuff, like the 35 year old age requirement for President, are absolute.
The Amendments are part of the Constitution, so if they are not absolute, then it follows that the Constitution is not absolute.
Do you have an objective method to determine which parts of the Constitution are absolute and which ones are not?
The reason this has gotten so ridiculous and isn't going anywhere is that you never defined what you meant by "absolute" or in what respect. Is the requirement that the President be at least 35 years old absolute in the sense that it clear and specific and not open to interpretation? In the sense that even a single day short would be disqualifying? What would it mean if the Freedom of Speech was absolute? Or if Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce was absolute?
I don’t know where most of your examples are coming from. But let’s take assault weapons.
The weird thing about assault weapons is the ban is justified by Heller and Bruen. I think Heller and Bruen misinterpret the second amendment, but they are “conservative” decisions.
Anyway, the assault weapons ban, and Heller / Bruen, don’t purport to “terminate” or “suspend” the second amendment. There’s a big difference between interpreting and terminating. An interpretation needs to be convincing, and the Constitution sets out how to decide whether an interpretation is convincing or not. Terminating all or part of the Constitution — unless you’re talking about an amendment, which Trump clearly was not — is simply an assertion of power. You don’t have to convince anyone that you’re right about the Constitution or follow any Constitutionally prescribed procedures. You just have to seize power and declare the Constitution obsolete and void.
"Ostracism" doesn't name a state of affairs where everybody obsessively publicizes and reacts to whatever nonsense a powerless bozo emits on his personal failure of a social media site.
If you were actually worried about the effect on low-information voters, Mr. Somin, you wouldn't be demanding that Republicans talk about him, you'd be demanding CNN and NBC and C-SPAN stop talking about him.
At the beginning, comparisons to people like Mussolini and Hitler would spark outrage. Today, the set of people who obtained power through mostly legitimate democratic processes and then subverted or overthrew those processes to obtain absolute control is simply the relevant peer group.
Perhaps people like Hitler and Mussolini look more attractive as role models today.
Ilya,
C’mon man! Yes, Trump was crazy to claim that the evidence on hand proves the 2020 election was fraudulent, it just doesn’t. But do you really think that when Trump said “all rules, regulations…” he was referring to all rules ever written including The Golden Rule and the Rule of thumb? Was he advocating wholesale termination of the Constitution? No, in context, he was specifically referring to certain articles that should not stand in the way of a solution being formulated if it were actually proven that an election was rigged.
Suppose uncontrovertible proof of actual fraud affecting the outcome of the presidential election were found after a new president had been seated, what then? The Constitution provides no remedy in such an event. Article 2, Section 1 stipulates that the president serves a term of 4 years, and unless the new president had been involved in the cheating, impeachment and removal does not fit the situation. So would the country just do nothing in such a situation? Or could the courts formulate a remedy, which certainly would be outside the four corners of the Constitution's text, but perhaps in keeping with its structure and spirit?
Thankfully, we are not in the above situation. But it is not crazy to suggest that were it to happen, neither foot voting nor doing nothing would be the best options.
No, in context, he was specifically referring to certain articles that should not stand in the way of a solution being formulated if it were actually proven that an election was rigged.
Those “certain articles” that determine how someone is chosen to hold office are about as fundamental to the Constitution as you can get. If you can toss them aside when circumstances seem to warrant it, from one side’s point of view, then why not anything else in the document?
So many people misunderstand the point of democracy* A government that is beholden to the people through elections is the best way we have to maintain the people’s individual rights. Put simply, if the government violates our rights, we can vote those in power now out to try and get a government that won’t violate our rights. This is why upholding the peaceful transfer of power is so important. I don’t get why people that think that we should change to rules for Trump now can be confident that the rules will never get changed to keep their votes from mattering. After all, a voter can even change their mind and want someone that they previously voted for to be tossed out, right? They would certainly want to be sure that they could do that.
The bar for the evidence of fraud needs to be proportionate to the nature of fraud – that it is a crime.
Thus, you follow the rules established before an election for the peaceful transfer of power, period. Then you deal with those that committed fraud with the evidence to obtain convictions by juries of their peers. If the evidence isn’t sufficient to obtain convictions, or even to convince prosecutors to charge a significant number of people with fraud involving a significant number of fraudulent votes, then there never was sufficient evidence to act on any doubts about the validity of the election in the first place. At that point, you’re left with attempts to tighten security around future elections as the only legitimate remedy.
*To avoid pedantic arguments about democracy vs. republic – I am using the word democracy in the sense that includes all forms of representative government, like republics.
What Turnip said: Salads are for assholes.
What Turnip meant: We should eat our vegetables as they are an important part of good digestive health.
Trump can never be as bad as the liberals who live in your head!
Now that the right has their own Andy Borowitz, can they try to come up with something that's, you know, funny?
Incredible analogy.
Also incredible definition of leftist.
you can show them the pictures, the stats, the personal testimony, the official documents….everything
You mean made up crap that didn't dare present in court? "Witnesses" who they didn't want cross-examined?
I'm kind of surprised you admit the Holocaust happened, given your previously expressed pro-Nazi sympathies.
Holocaust Deniers? Like those very fine people Trump recently entertained at Mar-a-Lago?
mad-k, studies with cites to original sources are widely available. From the conservative point of view, go to lostnotstolen (dot) org:
On the landing page is a link to the pdf of the report, which, to give you a head start, includes:
But, of course, you will not do that, preferring to keep reciting the Trumpist sacred scriptures of either unverified or disproven "the pictures, the stats, the personal testimony, the official documents" the election crazies keep circulating in their odd obsessive echosphere, eternally convincing each other.
WaPo's Philip Bump, in a July article on the Lost, Not Stolen project titled We have reached the apex of election-fraud debunking | For what little good that will do, may have described it best:
Or the liberals who live in the White House.
Yes, we all know you can't tell the difference.
The liberals who live in my head have better moral standards.
You kid, but they don’t.
To you, liberals are ontologically evil, and thus all means are allowed to oppose them, so long as they are effective.
I know this because of the things you post that liberals support, and because there is nothing anyone has ever done against a liberal that you did not support.
Brett and RAK are both more principled and less partisan than you.
And smarter! Brett's brain may have been cultwashed, but at least it's still switched on.
I always enjoy when you tell me what I think, rather than ask.
It makes the strawmen so much easier for you.
I explained what you have posted that made me conclude thus.
I mean, lol what you are defending now.
m_k calls everyone who doesn't call 2020 a fraud a leftist.
He says there's tons of evidence without providing any.
m_k is utterly broken by losing 2 years ago.
Like I said. It's easy to strawman. But, it's what you have.
Try asking someone what they think next time, rather than assuming incorrectly.
My dude, you can't even bring yourself to criticize Trump now, only Dems!
You've already shown us what you think, so don't try playing coy.
That shithead was broken long before 2020.