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Court Holds That Indiana RFRA Provides Religious Exemptions from Abortion Ban
Note that the decision is not inconsistent with the Supreme Court's holding in Dobbs, though it may of course still be overturned on appeal on other grounds.
From Anonymous Plaintiff 1 v. Individual Members of Medical Licensing Bd. of Ind., decided yesterday by Marion County (Indiana) Superior Court Judge Heather Welch; Josh Blackman has just posted on the subject, but I thought I'd put up my post as well, because it quotes at greater length from the decision and offers some thoughts of my own. First, my thinking, which I think echoes what I blogged about in May:
[1.] If someone sincerely believes that she is obligated by her religion, or even motivated by her religion, to get an abortion under certain circumstances (which some of the plaintiffs did indeed assert, citing their understanding of Judaism), then she would indeed have a strong claim under a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act, such as Indiana's RFRA. By forbidding her from doing what her religion is telling her to do (or by forbidding others from helping her in this task, when their help is necessary), the state abortion ban is substantially burdening her religious exercise. The government therefore has to show that denying the exemption really is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest. That's what the statute that the Indiana legislature enacted (RFRA) says, and a court must apply it.
[2.] One way of thinking about this is to consider drug laws. Courts have generally rejected the view that the Constitution includes a right to bodily autonomy that protects the right to use drugs. But when someone feels a sincere religious obligation or motivation to use a particular kind of drug, he can seek an exemption under a RFRA—and might indeed win, if the court concludes that granting the exemption wouldn't unduly undermine a compelling government interest. And indeed the plaintiffs in Gonzales v. O Centro (2006) did win under the federal RFRA as to the hallucinogen hoasca.
Likewise, the Court in Dobbs rejected the view that the Constitution includes a right to bodily or reproductive autonomy that protects the right to get an abortion. But when some feels a sincere religious obligation or motivation to get an abortion, she can seek an exemption under a RFRA—and might indeed win, if the court concludes that granting the exemption wouldn't unduly undermine a compelling government interest.
Of course, this requires resolving (among other things) whether there is indeed a compelling government interest in protecting fetal life, and one can debate that question—and, more importantly, the question of how American courts should resolve that question. That's the very thing that Dobbs sought to keep courts from having to do under some constitutional "substantive due process" or "right to privacy" analysis. But RFRAs do indeed call on courts to answer that question, as to religious exemption claims.
[3.] This having been said, I don't think it's enough for courts to conclude that there's no compelling interest because people disagree on the issue, even on religious grounds.
Here's one analogy, in case it's helpful. Say that a person believes his religion requires him or at least motivates him to eat a particular kind of meat for certain religious holidays (e.g., he's a Jew who believes that he ought to eat lamb for Passover). But say that California, or some town in California, concludes that all mammals have rights, and that eating mammals is therefore improper. (California has indeed banned the sale of horsemeat for human consumption; naturally, it would take a major cultural change to extend that to all mammals, but say it does—or say that the person adheres to some religion, old or new, that does call for consumption of horsemeat.)
Under a RFRA, it's not enough for the state to say, "we think mammals have the right to life, and there's a compelling government interest in banning the killing and eating of mammals." The courts would have to actually agree that there is such a compelling government interest. But I also don't think it's enough for courts to say that this is a fundamentally contested moral or spiritual question that turns on people's subjective beliefs. (To quote a backer of the no-horsemeat law, "It's a perversion of the human-animal bond. Eating a horse is morally perverse.") One can have compelling government interests in protecting what the majority views as important rights (animal rights, fetal rights, human rights not to be discriminated against in employment, etc.) even when there's a basic moral and spiritual disagreement—which often has religious dimensions—on the issue.
[4.] I also think that, for a showing of substantial burden, it wouldn't be enough for a claimant to say that she disagrees with the law's moral or religious underpinnings, for instance because she doesn't believe that human life starts at conception, or because she doesn't believe that animals have a right not to be slaughtered for food. Thus, say someone merely says,
My religion tells me that only humans are entitled to a right not to be killed for various reasons, and that it's permissible to eat all animals, at least so far as they aren't placed in unnecessary pain. I reject the blasphemous attempt by the state to redefine who has such rights, and I want to do make my own decision without regard to the state's position.
I'm inclined to say that can't be sufficient for a RFRA claim: The mere fact that one's religion allows one to do something—and perhaps even counsels one to do whatever one thinks is right—doesn't strike me as enough to show a substantial burden. There has to be a religious reason for eating horsemeat, not just a religious reason for disapproving of the state's ban on horsemeat.
[5.] But there's also an extra twist here—one of the plaintiffs, Anonymous Plaintiff 2, cited beliefs that weren't just about abortion, but were about autonomy writ large:
[Anonymous Plaintiff 2] does not belong to a specific religious denomination, but has personal religious and spiritual beliefs that guide her moral and ethical practice and life. She does not believe in a single, theistic god, but believes that there is within the universe a supernatural force or power that connects all humans and is larger than any individual person. Central to her spiritual beliefs is the belief that persons are endowed with bodily autonomy and that the bodily integrity of others should not be infringed upon. To do so constitutes a spiritual and moral wrong and inhibits the full expression of a person's humanity.
[Anonymous Plaintiff] 2 believes that, at least prior to viability, a fetus is a part of the body of the mother. Central to her religious beliefs is that she maintains spiritual and physical autonomy over her own body, including a fetus, and it is her spiritual obligation to determine whether to remain pregnant.
She believes that if a pregnancy or the birth of another child would not allow her to fully realize her humanity and inherent dignity, she should terminate that pregnancy, and this is so in circumstances which would not be permitted under S.E.A. 1. Anon. 2 has terminated a pregnancy for precisely this reason in the past….
The beliefs appear not to be abortion-specific, and seem just to be "you should do whatever will lead you to realize your humanity and inherent dignity." It sounds like the beliefs are broad enough that they would presumably give their holder an exemption from any restriction on action that sufficiently involves "her own body," which would presumably include the right to do things with her own body and not just to her own body.
If this theory is accepted, then it sounds like Anonymous Plaintiff 2 would be living the libertarian dream: Whenever she is motivated to do anything by the belief that it is necessary "to fully realize her humanity and inherent dignity," the government wouldn't be able to restrict that unless it can show that denying her an exemption is the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest.
Maybe that's what the Indiana Legislature signed up for by enacting the Indiana RFRA; and of course the legislature could avoid that by specifically exempting certain laws from the RFRA (since RFRA is just a statute). Indeed, that's what the Indiana Legislature did with regard to antidiscrimination laws, which are expressly excluded from the Indiana RFRA. Still, it would be a remarkable result that gives me pause, entirely apart from its effect on abortion laws—though, again, libertarians who believe that the courts should indeed broadly protect a vast range of liberty, may well cheer loudly for it.
[* * *]
In any event, here are offer some excerpts from the decision:
The Complaint alleges that S.E.A. 1 [the Indiana abortion ban] violates [the Indiana state] RFRA because it "burdens the plaintiffs' sincere religious beliefs, and those of a putative class of those similarly situated," by prohibiting abortion in circumstances where Plaintiffs' religion "direct[s]" them to obtain an abortion…. Plaintiffs argue that S.E.A. 1—which prohibits abortion except where a pregnancy seriously endangers a mother's health or life, a pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, or the unborn child has a lethal anomaly—violates their rights under Indiana's RFRA.
The court found the following facts about the plaintiffs' personal religious beliefs:
[Anonymous Plaintiff 1's] Jewish beliefs include the belief that life begins for the child at its birth. She also believes, according to Jewish law and teachings, that the life of a pregnant woman, including her physical and mental health and wellbeing, must take precedence over the potential life. Therefore, according to her Jewish beliefs, if her health or wellbeing—physical, mental, or emotional—were endangered by a pregnancy, pregnancy-related condition, or fetal abnormality, she must terminate the pregnancy. [She also has specific conditions that increase such risks, and that would require her, based on her religious beliefs, to get an abortion should any such risks manifest themselves. -EV] [Anonymous Plaintiff 3, who is Muslim, holds similar views, as do Anonymous Plaintiffs 4 and 5, who are Jewish. -EV]
[Anonymous Plaintiff 2] does not belong to a specific religious denomination, but has personal religious and spiritual beliefs that guide her moral and ethical practice and life. She does not believe in a single, theistic god, but believes that there is within the universe a supernatural force or power that connects all humans and is larger than any individual person. Central to her spiritual beliefs is the belief that persons are endowed with bodily autonomy and that the bodily integrity of others should not be infringed upon. To do so constitutes a spiritual and moral wrong and inhibits the full expression of a person's humanity.
[Anonymous Plaintiff] 2 believes that, at least prior to viability, a fetus is a part of the body of the mother. Central to her religious beliefs is that she maintains spiritual and physical autonomy over her own body, including a fetus, and it is her spiritual obligation to determine whether to remain pregnant.
She believes that if a pregnancy or the birth of another child would not allow her to fully realize her humanity and inherent dignity, she should terminate that pregnancy, and this is so in circumstances which would not be permitted under S.E.A. 1. Anon. 2 has terminated a pregnancy for precisely this reason in the past….
The plaintiffs' religious beliefs are sincerely held and mandate that they receive abortions in circumstances that are prohibited by S.E.A. 1….
The court also made factual findings about broader beliefs of abortion held by at least some Jews, Muslims, Unitarian Universalists, Pagans, and Episcopalians, and I agree with Josh that some of the conclusions are stated far too categorically: For instance, the court finds that, "Under Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a living person only at birth, when the greater part emerges from the mother," citing two rabbis—but secular courts aren't supposed to decide what "Jewish law" does or does not hold. As the Supreme Court has held, "Plainly, the First Amendment forbids civil courts" from "determine[ing] matters at the very core of a religion," such as "the interpretation of particular church doctrines." But, in the material block-quoted above, the court also made findings about what these particular plaintiffs sincerely believe, which is indeed the correct approach.
The court then applied the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act statute, which provides,
- Except as provided in subsection (b), a governmental entity may not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.
- A governmental entity may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates that application of the burden to the person:
- is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
- is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest….
"[E]xercise of religion" includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.
(The Indiana RFRA is based on the federal RFRA, and has been interpreted consistently with the federal RFRA and the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, RLUIPA. And the Indiana RFRA expressly states that it applies to all laws, both enacted before it was enacted and those enacted afterwards.)
The court concluded that the abortion ban substantially burdened the plaintiffs' religious beliefs:
Religious exercise is substantially burdened if the government "put[s] substantial pressure on an adherent to modify his behavior and to violate his beliefs." …
The State's primary argument as to substantial burden is that the Plaintiffs' religious exercise is not substantially burdened because abortion is not a religious practice, "but a secular means to a religious end." … This Court finds that the State's arguments are nearly identical to those already rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court in Hobby Lobby. In that case, the Supreme Court held that requiring closely-held for-profit corporations to pay for employees' health coverage, which could include payment for contraceptives that the plaintiffs considered to be abortion-inducing, compelled the owners of the company to engage in conduct that violated their religious beliefs. This was so even though the only activity engaged in by the plaintiffs was the payment of money, rejecting the government's characterization of this behavior as too attenuated to constitute a religious practice.
The Plaintiffs argue that a variety of activities, including those that may be "secular" to some, constitute religious practices, and that the Plaintiffs' practices are as well. The Supreme Court has detailed many activities that—while they may not have religious significance to some people—are religious practices for those who believe. The same is true for the Plaintiffs in this case. See Holt v. Hobbs (2015) (growth of facial hair); Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah (1993) (ritual slaughter of animals); Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972) (compulsory education beyond the eighth grade).
This Court finds that the Plaintiffs practices regarding abortion are religious in nature: they have established that, under circumstances that would be prohibited by S.E.A. 1, their religious beliefs would compel them to have abortions.
And the court concluded that denying plaintiffs wasn't the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest (the so-called strict scrutiny test). First, it concluded that there was no compelling interest in protecting fetal life. (Again, recall that Dobbs deliberately didn't resolve this question, because it concluded simply that the U.S. Constitution says nothing about abortion, and therefore doesn't generally require a showing of compelling interest to justify abortion laws, just as it doesn't require a showing of compelling interest to justify drug laws, bans on assisted suicide, and a wide range of other laws. Dobbs thus didn't decide what would happen under some statutory or constitutional provision that does require a compelling interest to restrict religious practices, whether involving abortion or otherwise.)
The government may not simply enunciate a general reason for the statute, as RFRA requires a "more focused inquiry." RFRA demands that there be a "case-by-case consideration of religious exemptions to generally applicable rules."
The State first argues that the interest in preventing abortion is compelling. The State argues that abortion at any gestational age beginning at fertilization "ends the life of an innocent human being," and that it has a compelling interest in protecting this class of "vulnerable human beings" from being killed. The State's interest is based entirely on the legislative determination that "human physical life" begins when sperm meets egg. The State presents as a statement of fact that "it is a simple scientific observation" that "the human fetus is a human being," as are zygotes and embryos.
Of course, it is not disputed that human zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are of the human species. In making these factual assertions, the State is therefore attempting to establish as a factual matter when a human comes into being—the "being" part of the phrase "human being." In so doing, the State seeks to establish (1) that the question of when life begins has been definitively answered by science and medicine, and therefore that any theological opinions regarding this question are either wrong or are rendered irrelevant; and (2) it has a compelling interest in prohibiting the termination of pregnancy from the moment of fertilization forward.
The Supreme Court already recognized in Hobby Lobby that the question of when life begins is a religious one that the State may not answer legislatively or as a factual matter. Hobby Lobby (taking as the starting point that "the [plaintiffs] have a sincere religious belief that life begins at conception"). The nature of this enduring question and the dispute surrounding it are illustrated by the very fact of the competing affidavits filed by both sides.
This Court finds that the question of when life begins is a theological one not a factual question for this Court. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that "the First Amendment forbids an official purpose to disapprove of a particular religion or of religion in general" and government may not act "to benefit religion or particular religions." "The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."
In addition, the State may not dictate the parameters of what constitutes a question of religion. As the Supreme Court made clear in the context of the government's attempt to define religion as necessarily involving belief in a "Supreme Being," the State may not construct the confines of religious belief and place some things—such as when life begins—outside of it.
While the State may question the sincerity of a plaintiff's religious belief, it may not question the belief's veracity. The State ignores the fact that "courts have no business addressing whether the religious belief asserted in a RFRA case is reasonable." To do so would place a court as the arbiter of the reasonableness and propriety of religious beliefs and would violate the First Amendment.
This Court finds that Indiana, in its own statutes, does not endow zygotes, embryos, and pre-viability fetuses with the legal status of human being.
Indiana's health code does not define a "human being," but it defines a human embryo as "a human egg cell with a full genetic composition capable of differentiating and maturing into a complete human being."
Indiana's criminal code defines "human being" as "an individual who has been born and is alive." For purposes of an action for wrongful death or injury, a "child" is defined as either a child born alive or a fetus after it has attained viability. The Court of Appeals has noted that there is an inherent distinction between a child born alive and a fetus as "the child who has been born has an independent existence outside the mother's body, and the unborn fetus lives within her body." In Humphreys v. Clinic for Women, Inc. (Ind. 2003), while the State argued that it had a "valid and compelling" interest in protecting fetal life, the Court concluded that this interest was not strong enough to allow the State to refuse to fund certain abortions….
The undisputed evidence establishes that the Plaintiffs do not share the State's belief that life begins at fertilization or that abortion constitutes the intentional taking of a human life. To the contrary, they have different religious beliefs about when life begins, and they believe that under certain circumstances not permitted by S.E.A. 1, they would be required to receive abortions. Under the law, the Court finds these are sincere religious beliefs.
The State has not asserted a compelling interest in refusing to provide an exception to the Plaintiffs if the law were otherwise enforceable. Indiana has no interest in violating the sincere religious beliefs and exercise of the Plaintiffs, particularly as the Plaintiffs take no issue with the manner in which their religious exercise was accommodated under Indiana's prior abortion law….
Second, the court concluded that in any event the government didn't show that denying a religious exemption "is the least restrictive means" to serve any such government interest:
"The least-restrictive-means standard is exceptionally demanding and it requires the government to show that it lacks other means of achieving its desired goal without imposing a substantial burden on the exercise of religion by the objecting party." Holt.
The State's position is that a human life begins at fertilization and that, as a result, it has in interest in preventing the "killing of an innocent human being."
A statute is not narrowly tailored if it is underinclusive in scope. "Underinclusiveness raises serious doubts about whether the government is in fact pursuing the interest it invokes." Therefore, "[u]nderinclusiveness can … reveal that a law does not actually advance a compelling interest."
The Plaintiffs argue that S.E.A. 1 is not narrowly tailored and is underinclusive, in that it provides exceptions for some abortions—though not religious exceptions—in circumstances that directly contravene the State's purported interest.
The State argues that abortion, regardless of gestational age of the zygote, embryo, or fetus, is the killing of an innocent human being, and its interest is in preventing that killing. However, the statute explicitly allows abortions in circumstances that the State acknowledges constitute the "killing" of an "innocent human being": for example, where the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest and where the fetus is viable but will not live beyond three months after birth.
The State raises several arguments in response to the Plaintiffs' claims of underinclusiveness. First, the State contends that "[p]ermitting these Plaintiffs—or anyone else—to abort their children in the future would necessarily require the State to forgo its interest entirely." The law explicitly allows some persons to seek abortions, as the State itself recognizes, "where there is a compelling interest on the other side." The State is willing in these instances to "forgo" its interest where it deems the countervailing interest "compelling," but not where a religious mandate rests on the other side of the balance.
The State's argues to narrowly tailor a religious exemption for the Plaintiffs would "turn entirely on the subjective preferences of individual women who may wish to choose abortion for a wide variety of reasons connected to physical or mental health or even self-actualization. Such a broad exception has no limiting principle and would blow a hole in Indiana's abortion prohibition."
This Court finds that there is a limiting principle, as there is in any case involving religious discrimination: the Plaintiffs' sincerely held religious beliefs provide the limits. In this case, the State's arguments unfairly criticize the Plaintiffs' Religious practices as subjective and minimize the importance of the Plaintiffs' religious beliefs which are permitted under RFRA. The Plaintiffs' religious beliefs are no more or less subjective than believing that a human being comes into existence at the moment that a sperm meets an egg or at the moment of birth. In O Centro, in refusing to allow the government to prohibit a religious sect from gaining access to a hallucinogen that was otherwise prohibited as a Schedule I substance by the Controlled Substances Act, the Court did not criticize the "subjective preferences" of the members of this small sect.
Instead, the Court noted that given that there was an exception in the Act for the use of peyote by recognized Indian Tribes, there was no reason to restrict its use to the plaintiffs who had sincere religious needs for the hallucinogen: "if any Schedule I substance is always highly dangerous in any amount no matter how used, what about the unique relationship with the Tribes justifies allowing their use of peyote?" Id. (Court's emphasis). Similarly, if an abortion always kills a human being, there is no reason not to extend the exceptions in S.E.A. 1 to persons whose sincere religious beliefs compel them to obtain abortions in light of the current exception in S.E.A. 1….
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Aside from the "libertarian dream" problem, is the Supreme Court of Indiana going to reverse this decision because the justices don't like abortion? I'm asking a political question more than a legal question.
My money is on "yes."
Theres nothing stopping her from hopping into a car to drive to a blue state.
The most common circumstance under which Judaism would mandate an abortion would be for an ectopic pregnancy, which is always a life threatening condition treated in emergency departments of hospitals. The woman would only be able to get to a blue state in an ambulance, maybe only in a medivac helicopter.
What state forbids abortion for life threatening cases? (outside of maybe some leftists intentionally distorted interpretation).
The answer is none
It’s a stupid pro abortion talking point
They also love talking about rape and incest, when in reality, 99% of abortions are just from promiscuous women who can't take basic precautions.
It takes two people to cause a pregnancy, chief.
If the man has responsibilities, he would have corresponding rights. Correct?
The answer is any state with an ambitious AG and an even slightly ambiguous statute, which is a lot.
What person of actual authority is going to throw their career away telling dying women they can't get an abortion to save their life?
If you're going for rare cases where some dumb person misinterprets an 'ambiguous' statute we might as well start looking into all the possibly 'ambiguous' laws leftoids write about mutilating children in the name of transitioning, assisted suicide etc.
You should go look at some of those medical cases coming out of Texas. You're putting far too much faith into people not to just cover themselves instead of not putting others at risk.
How many of these horror stories you hear on tiktok or DU are actually true and/or not wildly exaggerated? I've dug into a couple of them and it often turns out there is some unmentioned detail that changes things a bit at least for sane people like the mother killed a fully developed baby thats not biologically any different from a baby that would be illegal to kill if they were simply in another location.
But lets just give it to you. Theres far more true horror stories about stuff progs love like gender transitioning and common core so if we should legislate based on anecdotal horror stories why not ban those first and then we can talk about changing our national laws around for these few women.
DU? No one talks about them, other than old Freepers.
But it is telling how the right has shifted post Dobbs to minimizing and insisting the anti abortion policies that have resulted aren’t actually that radical.
Really shows a lot about 2022. The dog that caught the car.
Radical laws can get corrected in a year. Way different then radical SCOTUS rulings that take decades to correct.
Radical laws can get corrected in a year.
How would that help a woman in danger now?
Coming out against judicial review, or just judicial review when you don't like the outcome?
The GOP is running away and denying its own policies iowatwo.
Except life of the mother is already an explicit exception in every state that has it. Even if it wasn't, it would be allowed under the strict necessity standard that governs medical triage.
You are making up a strawman, knowing that it makes no sense.
Except life of the mother is already an explicit exception in every state that has it.
How an AG or local DA will interpret when the life of the woman is in sufficient danger can still be unknown. And that can make doctors unsure or even unwilling to risk their licenses or even their freedom. And they shouldn't have to worry about that. They should be able to use their best professional judgement without wondering if some zealous anti-abortion prosecutor is going to come after him.
It isn't some hypothetical either. There is the case of Savita Halappanavar in Ireland, who died because they wouldn't perform an abortion while the fetus still had a detectable heartbeat, despite the certainty that she was having a miscarriage at ~17 weeks with no chance it could survive. There was the recent case of the American woman traveling in Malta, where abortion is banned, and she had to be flown out of the country to get care for her distress, which was risky itself. And there have been news reports since Dobbs of women that had to go to other states because doctors in their home state weren't sure if they could legally treat them.
Pregnancy always carries risk. The overall figures are around 1 maternal death for every 6000 live births in this country. Would you consider a 1 in 6000 chance of dying from someone attacking you high enough risk to justify using lethal force to defend yourself?
You're assuming the AG or local DA is some stereotypical evil guy out of your imagination. That's all that's going on here.
Sure, evil guys exist, but they're rare, and just as importantly, Your side has them, too! Kermit Gosnell didn't get away with murder for years by accident, remember or get his patients by accosting pregnant women on the street. PP was feeding him patients they knew they couldn't legally do abortions on, and he survived multiple reviews despite all the red flags, because the local health authorities were covering for him.
Look at NY, that's adopted a law which, yeah, actually IS designed to permit abortions right up to shortly after a live birth, and doesn't genuinely require medical necessity for them either.
There are fanatics on both sides, keep that in mind. And there's a good argument your fanatics are racking up a bigger body count.
Look at NY, that’s adopted a law which, yeah, actually IS designed to permit abortions right up to shortly after a live birth, and doesn’t genuinely require medical necessity for them either.
(First, I assume you meant shortly before a live birth. As after a live birth is still covered by the homicide statute in NY, like everywhere else.)
No, that is not how the change to NY law worked. After 24 weeks, there still needs to be a valid medical need as determined by licensed medical professionals or that abnormalities mean that the fetus will not survive outside the womb. The previous NY law only recognized the life of the woman being at stake, but a lesser known part of Roe did state that states had to allow for abortions after 24 weeks when the woman's life or health were at risk. NY was basically just bringing their law into line with Roe. That said, situations where a woman more than 24 weeks along is carrying a fetus unable to survive outside the womb, or situations at more than 24 weeks that threaten the woman's life or health yet she could only be protected by terminating the fetus would be so rare that I doubt anyone has statistics on that.
I am completely comfortable trusting the ethics of doctors that any abortion that late in pregnancy would be the only way to protect the woman and don't see any need for there to be criminal statutes regulating it.
That Gosnell is the only example that ever comes up tells me how rare such unethical doctors are. And I'm skeptical of your claim that he was "fed" women seeking late term abortions by Planned Parenthood. That is a new one I hadn't heard before. While I know that his clinic hadn't been inspected despite some complaints for many years, I also don't know that I buy that people in government were knowingly "covering" for him.
You’re assuming the AG or local DA is some stereotypical evil guy out of your imagination.
Imagining awful politicians is all you do around here!
Like your ridiculous interpretation of NY law that you in this post insist is designed to PERMIT MURDER.
We have been over your interpretation and it requires some assumption of random evil beurocrats well beyond anything you're objecting to.
You top yourself weekly in your blindness to your hypocrisy.
"You’re assuming the AG or local DA is some stereotypical evil guy out of your imagination. That’s all that’s going on here."
I don't need to imagine it. Indiana has an AG who is giving a real-life, real-time example of what an anti-abortion fanatic will do to harass and persecute a doctor who *literally* broke no laws. Or we can look at Ken Paxton, with his combination of extreme anti-abortion fanaticism and pro-corruption activities and be reasonably skeptical about what he might do.
It isn't hypothetical any more. Dobbs gave anti-abortionists the opportunity to use government to force draconian laws on everyone thaley can and they are doing it, good and hard.
When a party spends 50 years with a litmus test like "life begins at conception", it can't be surprising that when the candidates that are attracted (and elected) by that party are presented with the opportuntity to be extreme, they will take it.
I assume plaintiffs in this sort of case are mere pawns of darker forces. Or lighter forces if you see things that way. More powerful forces with their own ends, in any case. Like the people who go out of their way looking for ADA violations and then claim to be discriminated against.
If we spent half the energy on worthwhile pursuits as we do on abortion clinics on every street corner and other silly things we'd be colonizing alpha centauri by now.
"Theres nothing stopping her from hopping into a car to drive to a blue state."
That's the remedy you think is sufficient for religious freedom? So, for example, you can drive to Missabama for a Baptist service, so New York can ban Baptist churches?
when some feels a sincere religious obligation or motivation to get an abortion, she can seek an exemption under a RFRA—and might indeed win,
This doesn't sound particularly convincing.
Exactly how long might it take to seek such an exemption and "win?"
If the process is judicial instead of administrative, the courts can move quickly when they want to. You read sometimes about a plaintiff seeking a TRO or injunction against something that will happen within days. Massachusetts allows a couple to ask a judge to waive the usual three day waiting period to get married. Most if not all states offer same day service for restraining orders.
the courts can move quickly when they want to.
When they want to.
Judaism really does mandate an abortion under some limited circumstances. Most of the abortion bans that have been enacted by states would prevent those abortions from happening.
Can you name a circumstance where halakah mandates an abortion, and, any state that would prohibit an abortion in that particular circumstance?
Physical life of the mother is one example. No state prohibits an abortion if the pregnancy will kill the mother. Not one.
Jewish law mandates abortion to the exact same degree as Christianity mandates public prayer on the 50 yard line after a high school football game.
Halakhah requires an abortion where the health - not life - of the mother is at stake. A similar obligation is found wrt fasting on Yom Kippur, where someone whose health but not life would be imperllled by observing the fast is not permitted to fast.
(Note that according to Halakhah, a fetus is a limb of the mother, no more, until the greater part of the head has emerged.)
SRG....There are differing interpretations of what that literally means: health vs physical life.
On the legal side, does the right under your favorite RFRA to use illegal drugs for religious purposes also protect the person who sells the drugs to you? I recall a federal appeals court case that said "no" but that may not be the current state of the law. O Centro upheld an injunction allowing use of an illegal substance that could be made by the plaintiffs from plants that grow in the wild.
The court could rule that Jane Roe has a sincere religious belief giving her immunity from prosecution from getting an abortion, but the doctor who gives her an abortion in Indiana is still in big trouble. Which might be the status quo. Does Indiana law criminalize getting an abortion, or only performing one?
What about Islamic honor killings?
What -- exactly -- is the difference between killing a baby for religious reasons and killing a teenager for religious reasons?
The difference is one you have already precluded by using "baby" instead of "fetus".
Bzzzzt!
The state's interest in outlawing murder is a compelling interest. I believe the state's interest in preventing abortion is, per Dobbs, a rational interest. I have no idea how a fight between two compelling interests is determined, but I'm sure that a rational interest loses 10 times out of 10 to a compelling interest.
Also, legally, a fetus is not a person and can't be murdered. That's just the hyperbolic language used by people who get frustrated when other people make their own moral and, in this case, religious decisions. As they should.
Would point out that under a long-standing body of precedent reaffirmed in Agency for International Development v Alliance for Open Society in 2020, foreigners outside US territory are not included in the Constitution’a definition of “person” and have no constitutional rights. The seminal case, Johnson v. Eisentrager, went through the use of the word “person” and held that this language lacked “extraterritorial application.” Roe mirrored this language when it undertook a similar investigation and concluded the use of the word “person” in the constitution lacked “prenatal application.”
The US Supreme Court recently held that, so far as the constitution is concerneed, there is no legal remedy if a US border agent kills a Mexican national in Mexican territory.
But this certainly doesnmt imply that the Constitution requires limiting the definition of murder to comstitutional persons. Congress has long had extraterritorial murder statutes that protect foreigners outside US territory, from admiralty laws prohibiting murder on the high seas to laws prohibiting traveling in foreign commerce for the purpose of commiting murder. None of these laws have ever been limited to constitutional persons. It’s long been considered within Congress’ and the states’ power to extend them to those to whom the courts have held the word “person “ in the Bill of Rights lacks “application.” In fact, the fact there was no law prohibiting the border agent from killing the Mexican national was considered something of an anomaly.
Why should this be any different?
Would agree, however, that the state’s definining it as murder doesn’t automatically make the interest involved compelling.
Under the Alito interpretation, the state’s interest in prohibiting killing of foreign nationals may well not be compelling. War, after all, represents about as big an exception to any general prohibition on such killing as could be imagined. And we’ve waged war rather frequently in our history.
I would see this as a pretty good imdicator that there is something seriously wrong with the Alito interpretation of a compelling interest.
But it’s by no means clear to me that extra-territorial foreigners and fetuses are different in our constitutional system. Both are considered human. Neither have constitutional rights. For both, there is a universalist faction saying that they ought to be treated the same as fully American persons, and an “Americans first” faction that says they are only barely human if that, and not like us all. The fact that the “Americans first” position tends to be espoused by conservatives when foreigners are concerned and by liberals when fetuses are concerned doesn’t strike me as making any difference so as the Constitution is concerned. Government is of course free to make a distinction between the two. But I don’t see that the Constitution does.
Foreign relations arguably give the federal government a separate compelling interest in foreigners that states may not have in fetuses. But that’s about it. And even there, there are cases where American law extraterritorially prohibits to Americans something a country’s own law permits to its citizens, and no treaty requires prohibition, where I think claiming a foreign relations interest exists is questionable.
My friend. A border agent who kills a Mexican in Mexico has either committed murder in Mexico or committed an act of war. Neither of which is a crime in America, though we would probably give them over as a curtesy to our neighbor to prevent the latter interpretation.
You are taking an exception that isn't an exception at all and extrapolating from it.
It’s merely one example of a long-standing body of precedent. There are many others.
"I believe the state’s interest in preventing abortion is, per Dobbs, a rational interest. "
Rational basis, not interest. Rational basis review, as I'm sure you're aware, is satisfied if the court can imagine a basis for the law that isn't chewing the furniture crazy, and never mind if it was the actual basis of the law, and it advances a legitimate state interest.
In practice, it's virtually impossible for laws to fail rational basis review, unless it's conducted by a judge who is personally hostile to the law.
In Dobbs, the Court found that,
1. Abortion was not a federal Constitutional right.
2. Protecting the life of the unborn was a legitimate governmental interest.
3. The laws in question passed rational basis review.
None of the reasoning involved is weaker when it comes to laws against killing the already born.
Your point 2 is certainly weaker. There is a compelling interesting in preventing murder of already-born individuals, which is a stronger basis than a legitimate interest. Two whole tiers stronger in fact (there is "substantial interest" between them)
"2. Protecting the life of the unborn was a legitimate governmental interest."
Legitimate, but not very significant. Rational basis isn't a very strong interest. Nor should it be.
"The unborn" aren't a thing. If you want to make them a thing, prove it. Otherwise, please leave people to make their own decisions.
Under the Alito interpretation of Smith, this is fairly straightforward. Religion has a “most favored nation” status, so if a law makes any exceptions, it must make exceptions for religion. Indiana’s abortion law makes medical exceptions, so the conclusion it has to make an exception for religion ought to be a no-brainer. And pretty much the same result comes from Alito’s interpretation of pre-Smith law. If the state is willing to make exceptions, that shows that it’s interest can’t really be all that compelling. So religion wins there too.
Setting the Alito interpretation aside, under pre-Smith law, Indiana would have to show a compelling state interest as traditionally understood. So far as federal law is concerned, Dobbs by no means established this, and could be interpreted as saying the contrary. Dobbs, after overturning the fundamental abortion right doctrine established by Roe, proceeded to say that in the absence of a fundamental right only a rational basis is needed, and the state’s interest in fetal life is entirely rational. Saying it’s rational doesn’t foreclose the possibility it might later be found important or compelling. But it certainly doesn’t preclude a finding that rational basis is the only interest the state has, and it’s open to lower courts to conclude this.
Of course, assuming the Indiana RFRA invokes pre-Smith law, the question in this case is not whether Indiana has a compelling interest in fetal life under federal law, but whether it has one under Indiana state law. That may be a more complicated question. There may be relevant Indiana precedent.
However, if Indiana law tracks Alito’s interpretation, I think the plaintiffs win.
In Fulton v. City of Philadelphia, Justice Barrett, joined by Justice Kavanaugh (and partially by Justice Beeyer), filed a concurrence taking issue with Alito’s approach, suggesting that maybe it shouldn’t be made too easy for religion to get exceptions from generally applicable laws.
As I wrote at the time, I wondered whether the implications for abortion in the event Roe v. Wade were overturned were on her mind in reaching her conclusion.
Plaintiffs sincerely and conscientiously believe that human sacrifice is essential to please the gods and maintain harmony in the universe. Against these admittedly-sincere beliefs we have the state’s alleged interest in protecting so-called “innocent human life.”
But the laws protecting innocent human life are underinclusive. An examination of the state’s statute book shows that persons convicted of capital crimes may be executed, yet innocent persons have been convicted of capital crimes. Likewise, the law, at least in practice, authorizes police to use deadly force in circumstances where the average citizen would not be allowed to do so. Furthermore, the law, allows completely innocent people to be sent to foreign wars or insurrections at risk to their own lives, not to mention the lives of the enemy.
Having carved out all these exceptions from the supposed sanctity of innocent human life, the state now comes to us with pretended zeal in stopping human sacrifices. But we see no reason why a sincere practitioner of human sacrifice should be disadvantaged vis-a-vis others whose conduct is perfectly legal – the executioner who kills a man who has been wrongly convicted, the cop who kills an innocent man because he mistook the man’s cell phone for a gun, or the soldier who kills or gets killed in what may be an ill-advised war.
Under all these circumstances, the state has failed to show a compelling interest in preventing plaintiffs from practicing their faith.
The plaintiff’s case is far better than that. Under stand-your-ground laws, you can kill over nothing more than property. The main objection to things like welfare is that people’s right to their property is far more important than whether others starve. Under the Alito interpretation, the state’s case that it really regards protecting human life as a compelling interest is so full of holes - many carved out by conservatives - that it doesn’t have much ground to stand on.
Prepare the volcano virgins, tell them the ceremony is back on!
(The war exception to the sanctity of human life is fairly bipartisan)
Anti-abortionists getting hoisted on their own petard is ironic in all the right ways.
Karma is a bitch.
But fear not, restrictionists and theocrats. I guarantee the Indiana legislatire will go back and add an exception for abortion that will nullify the RFRA.
They won’t let people get away with following their own religious beliefs for long, if they aren’t the right beliefs.
That's my beef with RFRAs. The legislature is giving too much power to the courts to decide what is a compelling interest. Instead of RFRAs, I think religious exemptions ought to be explicitly authorized by statute.
How is that different?
With RFRA, there is a presumption that religious objections to any statute must be accommodated (as they were in this case). Under my approach, there is no required accommodation unless the legislature has explicitly said it applies to specifically-named statutes (no accommodation in this case).
Which religions? Is that determination a government decision? And if so, how does that reconcile with the First Amendment (or its equivalent in state Constitutions)?
I would think it would have to be to all religions or none, else the Establishment Clause or Equal Protection Clause would be violated.
For the 1000th time, I am personally bewildered by the fact that the law treats differently,
a. A deeply spiritual woman, who belongs to a recognized religion that requires/forbids certain behavior(s),
b. (perhaps) a deeply spiritual woman, who believes in a higher power, but only in some inchoate form and whose resultant belief system is entirely separate from any religion, and
c. A deeply moral woman, who has the exact same beliefs regarding one’s behavior as women A and B have–but C’s are only based on her personal ethics, morals, mores, etc etc..
I just don’t get it. (I mean, of course I ‘get it,’ in the existential sense.) But it seems like such an arbitrary and unfair way to award special benefits and responsibilities.
The law treats them differently because the Comstitution does. It treats religion different from morals. It says to. It has Religion Clauses. It has no Moral Clauses or Comscience Clauses.
And because the Constitution protects the free exercise of religion but not the free excercise of morals or conscience, it authorizes Congress and the states to do the same.
That’s why.
Agreed.
My own position is that a genuinely free society wouldn't NEED religious liberty, because you'd be able to do or refrain for secular reasons, or indeed on a whim, anything it would make any sense to permit to be done or refrained from for religious motives.
But we aren't a genuinely free society, and the Constitution does have a specific carveout for religious motives.
What is the line between a moral code and a religious moral code? When does a set of sincerely-held moral beliefs receive the same consideration as sincerely-held religious beliefs?
I mean this sincerely. Is there a membership requirement (you have to be a member of a congregation)? A quantity requirement (so, for example, 10 people believing the same thing isn't a religion but 100 is)? An antecedent requirement (Protestants, who broke off from Catholics)? A holy text requirement (either requiring a "holy book" or using a previously established holy book)?
I've always thought that the logical conundrum posed by religious freedom is that the Establishment Clause seems to prevent the government from defining what is and isn't a religion, which requires them to accept both the existence of a claimed religious code and the assertion of person's sincerely-held belief in it.
I believe that, on the past, religious organizations have vigorously defended this interpretation. Rightly so, not only from a Constitutional perspective (IANAL, so this is only my opinion and it could be wrong), but also as a "separation of church and state" perspective (aka keeping the government out of judging a religion's foundational beliefs).
If there's anyone who has knowledge or experience in this area I would appreciate understanding it better.
The Supreme Court answered the question long ago. Religion involves a concept of a Supreme Bring. Morality doesn’t.
The state can force people to abide by its concept of morality. It can’t force people to abode by its concept of religion.
Suppose someone had argued that because the Constitution protects freedom of speech, courts have no right to define what speech is because any definition would limit, and therefore intrude on, freedom of speech. I think you yourself would find the argument a silly one. It’s pretty clear that courts can define what speech is without making any statements about what things people are allowed to say. And if they are to give freedom of speech any protection at all, they have to define what it is and say some things aren’t it. We can’t have a society that permits mass shootings because it’s afraid they might be a form of speech.
Same here.
The Supreme Court answered the question long ago. Religion involves a concept of a Supreme Bring. Morality doesn’t.
Do you recall the case? Probably one of the consciencous objector ones I'd guess...
I found this article, which analyzes several cases (and yes, 2 of them are conscientious objector cases)
https://www.freedomforuminstitute.org/about/faq/has-the-u-s-supreme-court-defined-religion/
The Supreme Court answered the question long ago. Religion involves a concept of a Supreme Bring. Morality doesn’t.
I wouldn't think that something would have to include the concept of a single supreme being. Certainly it wouldn't need to be an anthropomorphic deity. My comment below, along with Purple Martin's excellent reply, fill this out further. I would say that a set of beliefs does inherently need to include something supernatural to be religion. But I would not add anything more specific than that.
The law treats them differently because the Co[n]stitution does. It treats religion different from morals. It says to. It has Religion Clauses.
Religion is about more than morality as well. It gets into much more existential questions regarding the purpose of life and such rather than just concepts about right and wrong actions.
I think the main thing that separates religion from other modes of thought is the supernatural. Religions posit that there is something beyond what can be observed with our senses or measured and understood rationally. Basically, there exist things completely beyond human understanding. Whereas science posits that everything in nature can be observed and understood, in principle even if not in practice. God, gods, a soul, spirits, chi, the Force, are things that exist in religions that humans can't ever fully understand.
For myself, I am an atheist*, so I don't believe in the supernatural. Atheism isn't a religion by the terms I have described here. For legal and constitutional purposes, though, I think courts have consistently placed it into the same category as religion, as it is a belief about religion. Can a secular system of thought that includes no supernatural beliefs be a religion for constitutional purposes? I don't know if that has been tested, though.
*Even atheists don't always agree on a single definition for the term. Atheism could be a position that there is no evidence that any gods or the supernatural exist, thus a provisional belief that they do not exist is rational. (This is my view.) But others go a half step further and claim that the evidence is conclusive that gods and the supernatural cannot exist. That is, only the material world subject to the laws of physics exists or could exist. Agnosticism would then be the position that there is insufficient evidence to make a conclusion in either direction.
I like Malnak v Yogi (3rd Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, 1979) for its three-part test of what is a religion. Directly quoting from the ruling:
The Court found against Yogi, for the group of Evangelical parents bringing suit, ruling that organized Transcendental Meditation was a religion (meeting the three-part test above) and the High School TM course in question taught belief in TM so couldn’t be given by a public school.
(I'm not aware of a similar court ruling on moral guidance philosophies like Secular Humanism...closest I've encountered are rulings that government can't favor religion over non-religion by giving privileges to a religion, that it withholds from non-religions entities promoting a moral philosophy. If you know of one, please bring it to my attention.
Agreeing with you, I add my own fourth factor to Malnak's three-part test: Religion always incorporates something from beyond the natural world—supernatural—that can be neither proven nor disproven through empirical evidence ("supernatural" is a simple descriptive, not a pejorative, and to me seems what separates religion from philosophy).
The supernatural entity usually takes one of three forms:
1) A universal or local presence (sometimes but not always called God or gods) that observes, perhaps subtly guides, but does not directly influence events or force change (the Jiminy Cricket model)
2) A god or gods that guide or change the course of the universe or of human activity, directing natural agents in accordance with natural laws (make this rain or drought happen here; that earthquake, hurricane, tsunami, or volcano over there...)
3) GOD: an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that makes everything happen, and can and does use forces violating natural law (prophesize things yet to happen as a certainty, exist as a spirit without a physical body, bring a three-day dead body back to life, stop the sun in the sky to allow a few more hours of daylight so this tribe wins this battle, etc.)
Anyone out there who thinks of yourself as religious—do you categorize your religion as different from the above? Then please explain how that works…I really am interested.
For the record, RFRAs are also BS when they are used to achieve a result that I like on policy grounds.
I have to agree. This is just as much hash as the original Roe decision. Even though I like the policy, it's still nonsensical reasoning
tldr; version: the Indiana legislature didn't outlaw abortion in all circumstances, therefore it can't outlaw it in this circumstance. So there.
People are claiming a religious compulsion to murder and the courts are allowing it.
Neither America, nor the courts, have your view.
You need to understand that if you want to deal with it.
Or you can just wallow in righteous but impotent rage.
I have argued in my comments in the past that plaintiffs making religion claims ought to be put to a higher standard of sincerity than is currently in vogue, and ought to be required to meaningfully prove sincerity rather than having it be practically presumed. For example, in some of the recent vaccination cases people who never objected to vaccines in the past suddenly decided they objected to COVID ones. I think people who claim to have suddenly changed their views on a single issue without converting to another religion, indeed positions that go against the organized religions they belong to, have a sincerity problem and shouldn’t get religion claims. Religious exemptions are appropriate for genuine sincere believers, not opportunists.
However, the plaintiffs in this case would easily meet any reasonable sincerity standard. The positions they espouse have existed as Jewish religious positions for some time and have been discussed in considerable detail by Jewish religous thinkers. There has been no sudden opportunitistic change. The fact that there are Jewish religious thinkers who strongly disagree is irrelevant to the sincerity question.
A religious position does not have to be the position of an organized religous body or recognized theologians to be a sincere individual religious belief. But I think it’s a simple consequence of the nature of evidence that belonging to an organized religous body that has a body of religious writings that has included the position one is espousing for some time before the issue came up in court, makes sincerity considerably easier to prove.
And that’s the case here.
The situation, as I see it, is similar to any other situation where intent has to be proved. You don’t necessarily need written evidence created prior to and not for purposes of litigation to establish the existence of, for example, a contract or a marriage. But such documentation certainly helps. I don’t see why religion anf religious beliefs, which are also fundamentally questions of intent, should be any different.
I understand the state can’t require religions or religious believers to write down their doctrines (as they can for contracts and marriages). But nonetheless, those organized enough to maintain written records have an advantage over those who don’t, in this as in any other matter where evidence of intent is required. It’s not an absolute advantage. Contracts and marriages are proved by testimony and circumstantial evidence all the time. But it’s an advantage. It’s just the way evidence works.
The problem is that sincerity tests skirt very close to (and often cross) the Establish Clause. Particularly your suggestion to look at published doctrines and then apply them to members. Much like political parties being a member of a congregation of a denomination of a religion doesn't mean you adhere to every single belief of that religion, denomination, or congregation.
Even the covid vaccine opposition could still fall into a sincere belief. The person's belief may be that they can't be forced to put anything in their body that they don't want to. They didn't object to past mandates because they didn't object to the vaccine in question, and therefore were vaccinated willingly regardless of any mandate.
Imagine a world where Religious Freedom is so expansive it means you can abort a baby, but so restrictive it also means you can be compelled to create expressive speech/works supporting homosexuals and their cultural events.
The first one is, potentially, a religious freedom issue. The second is anti-discrimonation legislation.
Your religion doesn't provide the right to own a business. If you don't want to follow the same rules as everyone else, don't open a business.
Religious people aren't more important or more special than everyone else. If you choose to enter the commercial sphere, you have to play by the same rules as everyone elae. That isn't unreasonable.
How about:
Your religion doesn’t provide the right to own property. If you don’t want to follow the same rules as everyone else, don’t own property. (But if you do, you have to let homosexuals use it for their cultural events.)
"Your religion doesn’t provide the right to own property."
Correct. Owning property is not a religious activity, so it isn't protected by religious freedom. If you have the money to buy property, you can, but it is not connected to religion in any way.
"If you don’t want to follow the same rules as everyone else, don’t own property."
Correct.
"But if you do, you have to let homosexuals use it for their cultural events."
Nope, not if it is personal property. If you are renting the space out as a wedding venue, then yes.
That's the difference between a business and personal property. If you want to be a bigot in your business practices, you are restricted. If you want to be a bigot in your private home (or on your private land) you are not restricted.
For the record, you aren't a victim if you have to follow the same laws as everyone else; even Antonin Scalia knew that.
Does your religion provide you a right to compel a healthcare business to provide you abortion services or businesses to sell you abortion products?
No, but if you do offer abortion services or abortion products, you cannot refuse them to someone in a protected class.
It's not that hard a concept to grasp, unless you just don't want to accept it.
Pretending that non-discrimination laws require something that they don't is typical of cultural conservatives. Completely dishonest, but that is also typical of conservative fanbois of the culture war.
What if someone ordered a cake for a KKK rally, or a Nazi cake with a swastika celebrating Hitler's birthday? Are those covered by anti-discrimination laws?
If not, then you acknowledge its acceptable to discriminate against certain groups in certain areas of commerce, so its a legitimate topic of discussion as to where those boundaries are.
If you want to understand protected classes and what laws established them, I found this very helpful as a non-lawyer.
https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-protected-class-4583111
If you're just trying to win at Godwin's Law, congratulations. You came in first for this thread. The knockout rounds begin soon.
I believe, as a general rule, protected classes are groups that have been historically discriminated against
It the same old leftist shit. Bait and switch.
Hobbs returned the control to States where it Constitutional rests.
States are writing laws protecting the life of the Baby.
This once again focuses on the mother, and ignores the baby.
What baby? It's illegal to kill any baby (or 3 year old, or 12 year old) in all 50 states.
(If you don't speak English, and you made this mistake by using a language translation programme, then I apologize.)
You are both deliberately assuming the entire crux of the case.
When does a unborn fetus become separate living being with rights?
This is a philosophical question, as science determines that it's continuously living the entire time. However, this is a boolean question at any point, and it determines literally every other question of interest.
“When does a unborn fetus become separate living being with rights?”
Legally, right now? Birth.
Morally? My opinion is that viability is an excellent standard, since the fetus is, at that point, capable of existing as a separate organism (even if it probably doesn’t have to for a few more moths).
Before that? I can see setting the “viability” threshold at the earliest point any fetus has survived for a reasonable period (so not “it survived for .1 seconds, so it survived). Right now that would be just under 21 weeks.
Before that? There doesn’t seem to be a reasonable argument for claiming that a heartbeat (before there is a heart and long before there are lungs or a brain) is relevant unless you are starting at your preferred result and working your convoluted way backwards.
Potential isn’t reality, or I would have won $2 billion. There is a chance that a fertilized egg becomes a living, breathing person, but the odds are against it happening. Maybe, might, and could aren’t justifiable reasons when trying to infringe on someone else’s bodily autonomy.
As the article's quotes show, the state of Indiana has already answered that question: viability for some purposes, birth for the rest.
"Hobbs returned the control to States where it Constitutional rests"
I would argue that control rests with the individual, not the government. Regardless of what level of governennt is attempting the control.