The Volokh Conspiracy
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Pronouncing Foreigners' Names
Some comments on the thread about pronouncing foreign country names (such as Qatar and France) raised the question of how we should pronounce foreign people's names. Here too my answer is: We should follow the English norms, which often depart from the norms in those people's native languages—just like, I expect, how foreigners follow their own languages' norms when pronouncing English speakers' names in those languages.
Let me give some illustrations from the two languages I know, English and Russian. When pronouncing Russians' names, there are at least two separate questions:
[1.] Translate or transliterate? Some famous Russians' first names are conventionally translated into English, when they are commonly understood to be translatable. Lev Tolstoy usually becomes Leo Tolstoy, Aleksandr Pushkin usually becomes Alexander Pushkin, the fictional Yevgeniy Onegin usually becomes Eugene Onegin, Piotr Tchaikovsky usually becomes Peter Tchaikovsky, Czar Nikolai II usually becomes Czar Nicholas II, Lev Trotsky usually becomes Leon Trotsky, Yosif Stalin usually becomes Joseph Stalin.
Russian at least used to do the same in the past; the French Kings Louis in Russian are usually Liudovik, and the English Kings Henry are usually Genrikh. (Lincoln is apparently Avraam rather than Abraham, though all the other Presidents' names appear not to be translated.) If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the English Kings James in Russian are Yakov and in French are Jacques. Elizabeth II was apparently Isabel II in Spanish.
But Fyodor Dostoevsky doesn't become Theodore, Nikolai Gogol doesn't become Nicholas, Andrei Sakharov doesn't become Andrew, and Mikhail Gorbachev doesn't become Michael. (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Alexander Solzhenitsyn appear to be roughly equally common.) Ivans to my knowledge never become Johns, but my sense is that the Ivan-John connection is just too distant.
Much depends, as with country names, on how the name was first written when it became well-known to English speakers. (That also explains why some transliteration seems a bit odd to English speakers, such as Tchaikovsky, which likely made its way into English via French.) My sense is also that over time English usage has moved away from translation, but the norm was never solidly in favor of translation, and Solzhenitsyn's example shows that translation has not entirely died away.
[2.] Accent and vowel sounds. But even when the names are fully transliterated, the accent often sharply departs from the original. In Russian, it's Gorbachov, with the accent on the last syllable; in English, it's Gorbachev. Likewise, the English Washington becomes Vashington in Russian. The Russian and Ukrainian given name Vladimir (as in Lenin, Putin, and Zelenskiy) shifts from Vladimir in the original to Vladimir in English.
And neither Russian nor English have strong accent preferences; I expect that in French, for instance, the pronunciation of foreign names shifts even more commonly, to the local language norm (the last syllable).
Beyond that, English often doesn't adapt the vowel sounds of foreign names, even when those vowels are available in English. Vladimir Putin's name, for instance, would be pronounced more or less like Vladeemeer Pooteen. English speakers are able to pronounce that, even if they can't pronounce some more exotic sounds (like the Russian soft consonants, or the Russian vowel ы). But that's just not the way things are done in English; the Russian и is transliterated as "i," and pronounced the way "i" is usually pronounced in English, even though in Russian it's pronounced "ee." Likewise, English speakers could pronounce Ivan as "Eevahn," which would be pretty close to the Russian original, but that's just not the norm.
All this, of course, is much like what happens with foreign countries' names in English. Even when English borrows the foreign spelling or transliterates it from a different alphabet into English, it often shifts the accented syllable and changes the pronunciation of particular vowels (France, Chile) and sometimes consonants (Mexico, Argentina) to fit the more common English norm.
So are we wrong to pronounce Russian names that way? No, because we're pronouncing them in English. English words, even when derived from a foreign language, often acquire a different English pronunciation. Same with English names for foreign people.
[3.] People who aren't famous. Of course, all this stems from established patterns in the English language, which are usually established for well-known names. People who come over with a name that isn't yet familiar have a slightly better chance of getting English speakers to pronounce it the original way, subject to the limitations of the phonemes or initial consonant clusters that English speakers know how to produce. And when we interact face-to-face with people we know, there's somewhat more of a norm of trying to go along with their personal preferences on how their names are pronounced.
Still, if your name is, for instance, Vladimir (to take my father's name as an example), that's sufficiently well-established in English that you might as well stick with the English pronunciation, rather than taxing your friends and colleagues' memories with your preferred way of saying it. And if your name is Yevgeniy, just make things easier on yourself and your new fellow countrymen and become Eugene (or the much less dweeby Gene, which I should have chosen for myself but for foolish reasons didn't).
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I agree that many "foreign" names are so common in English that they are English words, with conventional English pronunciations.
Pronouncing them with an "authentic" pronunciation while speaking English tends to sound affected, or even a little condescending.
You hear this a lot with Spanish names. Names like Juan, Eduardo and Roberto are so common in English, that they have English pronunciations: Wahn, ed-WAHR-do and ruh-BURT-o. So when speaking English, it sounds absurd for me to roll the Rs in Roberto, whereas if I were speaking Spanish, I would do so.
There was a great SNL about this back in the '80s when Jimmy Smits was the host, and the Anglo cast members kept pronouncing Spanish-origin words like "tornado" as if they were speaking Spanish.
Consider, for example: Sean, a Gaelic name.
When I was a kid, that name was likely pronounced "seen," which is why my parents chose a more phonetic spelling. These days, if I tell a random person my name, they're more likely to spell it "Sean" and get confused when I try to correct them. (I've given up.)
Is anybody else in the world expected to follow foreign pronunciation or spelling? Or it is just us Americans?
I once tried to correct a professor's pronunciation of my name in a foreign classroom. It didn't go well.
In my experience, US professors make a unique effort to pronounce the names of foreign students.
Having lived in a foreign country where the pronunciation of my name was difficult for local language speakers, I found that what mattered most was a sense that they gave it a try and did their best out of a sense of courtesy. I think that's all that anyone is expected to do.
Us Brits too.
One of the many pleasures in watching premiership football is listening to the English announcers completely mangle foreign names.
Heck, there are plenty of Americans with weird pronunciations of what look like ordinary English names. What do you do? You try to follow their (or their parents') idiosyncrasies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQaLic5SE_I
David,
Thanks for a gud laff this mornin'.
Nice vid!
My father and my uncles pronounce our family name differently - no idea how that happened. And the world at large - DMV clerks etc - usually go with one of a couple other pronunciations. How it is pronounced is ... just not high on my list of priorities.
All Nieporents (and Neporents, for that matter) in the U.S. are related. But different branches of our family tree do nevertheless pronounce "Nieporent" differently from each other.
I once knew a guy whose brother simply decided he was tired of people mispronouncing his name and accepted the mispronunciation as his name. A case where "-ie-" is "eye" or "ee."
To return the favor, from 'Keeping Up Appearances' featuring Mrs. Hyacinth Bucket:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FboWtJiNYro
NPR has a guide for internal use: https://training.npr.org/2019/04/30/pronounce-like-a-polyglot-saying-foreign-names-on-air/
NPR tends to use foreign pronunciations of words even if they’ve since become Anglicized. (I.,e., “homage” no longer rhymes with “bondage”; it’s back to rhyming with “corsage”.) Sometimes they use foreign pronunciations even when they’re talking to a foreign correspondent who is using the Anglicized version. And gratuitous French is frequent, particularly from people like Scott Simon. It’s one of the things that makes those folks irritating, even though they’re head and shoulders above anyone else on the radio insofar as reporting.
Finally there are people like Cindy Rodriguez, who insist on their ancestor's way of pronouncing their names even though their audiences come away with a misimpression as to spelling. ("Cindy Doliguez?") It's a disservice both to themselves and to their listeners.
"NPR has a guide for internal use"
So we know how NOT to pronounce.
One problem with pronouncing “Ivan” as “ee-VON” is that it would sound like the feminine name Yvonne.
Another interesting aspect of Russian names is that women always seem to have an extra “A” at the end of their surnames: Gorbacheva, Putina, etc. I’ve never been clear on how that should change the pronunciation. The English pronunciation “GOR-ba-chev” becomes awkward if you tack another unaccented syllable on the end; we don’t usually have more than two unaccented syllables at the end of a word, so we would tend to say “gor-ba-CHEV-a”, but I have no idea if that corresponds to what a Russian would say. Since Russians say “gor-ba-CHOV”, I suppose “gor-ba-CHOV-a” would be the obvious way to say the feminine version.
In some Far Eastern cultures, it’s typical to give the family name first: in “Xi Jinping” or “Kishida Fumio”, “Xi” and “Kishida” are the family names, “Jinping” and “Fumio” the given names. Some western writers will turn the names around to follow Western conventions, writing “Fumio Kishida” instead, while others (e.g. The Economist) don’t. Curiously, while Japanese names are sometimes turned around, Chinese names generally are not. I don't recall ever seeing "Jinping Xi" or "Zidong Mao".
But see tennis great Ivan Lendl, whose name was routinely pronounced that way, rather than EYE-van.
See also boxing great, Ivan Drago, though I believe they were both EE-vahn, not ee-VAHN.
In that movie; was he the VILLian, or the veeLAHN?
In the late 19th century, the Japanese decided that, when stating Japanese names in European languages (other than Hungarian), they would flip the name order and state the given name first and the family name last, following the convention in those European languages. A couple of years ago, the Japanese government decided to reverse course and start stating Japanese names in Japanese word order (i.e., family name followed by given name), even in Western languages. The new practice hasn't yet succeeded in overturning more than a hundred years' of Western practice, but it may be just a matter of time before we catch on. (At one time, we stated Korean names in Western word order, as in the case of former Presidents Syngman Rhee and Chung Hee Park, but we now state such names in Korean word order, as in the case of President Park Geun-hye (daughter of President Chung Hee Park).)
Nonetheless, NHK uses family name first 90% of the time, even for its late PM, Abe Shinzo.
Well, you appear to be right about the stress. But Russians don't say "gor-ba-CHOV". They say "gor-ba-CHOFF", which is why older transliterations of Russian names end in FF rather than ending in V. They're only spelled with a V.
Then in the female version of the name, the V is really there, because it's no longer ending the word.
Visiting wikipedia to capture the Russian spelling of the names (so I could feed them into Google Translate for the text-to-speech functionality), I was surprised to learn that the Russian spelling is in fact "gorbach(y)ov" (Горбачёв) and not "gorbach(y)ev". Why is there an E in the English spelling?
"Why is there an E in the English spelling?"
Because we're stupid?
No - because Russian has an actual letter for the schwa vowel sound while English does not.
That is wildly untrue. Why did you say it?
Even if Russian did spell out vowel reduction, which it is infamous for not doing, that wouldn’t make a difference to the final syllable of Gorbachev, because that is the stressed syllable.
I suggest you look up the definition of "schwa".
Schwa is an unstressed central vowel. There is no Russian letter that indicates schwa, but it occurs frequently in Russian due to the extremely common phenomenon of vowel reduction in that language. (All of this is equally true of English.)
Consider Wikipedia's page on the conventional transcription of Russian into the IPA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Russian . Schwa is very much present there, and it is given as a reading of the Russian letters а, о, е, and я. Note that none of those letters indicate schwa; instead, they indicate the stressed vowels /a/, /o/, /ɛ/ and /a/ again.
This is also worth a look: http://www.pronunciationguide.org/antiperfect.html
An announcer of classical music radio programs does not try to be perfect, dropping alien phonemes into English. He tries to give a hint of the original and be understood.
I do have a bit of a problem with a classical channel pronouncing Dvorak like it's English.
In ordinary names from our own continent:
Zoe – one syllable or two? I thought always two, but I heard of a Zoe pronounced Zo. With a diaresis, Zoë, it is unambiguously two. You can't make it unambiguously one.
Jorge – I knew it was always "whore, hey" until I met a guy who pronounced it George.
Well, if science fiction is any clue, in the future this won't be a problem since we will all have numbers.
Speaking of a French person the pretentious people will say "numéro vignt-et-un" and the rest will say "number twenty-one".
Thank you.
This trend of suddenly changing the English spelling and pronunciation of whatever hot foreign topic of the day is quite annoying.
What explains it? Ostensibly, some sort of misconceived respect for an alien culture. But it typically takes the form of genuflecting to some particular point of geopolitics. And more importantly, cajoling and imposing upon others to do the same.
The capacity to manipulate and control language to any degree has great propaganda value. Efforts to further that capacity are broadly valuable to a propaganda system.
I don't think Eugene is dweeby.
Well, perhaps Eugene IS dweeby. But "Eugene" (ie, the name), is assuredly not dweeby.
Nice to meet you. What's your name?
Eugene.
No, me Carl. What *your* name?
Thanks, I'll be here all week.
"But “Eugene” (ie, the name), is assuredly not dweeby."
Certainly Prince Eugene of Savoy was about as undweeby as a man can be.
I was assured, in my employer's recent diversity and inclusion indoctrination, I mean training, that failure to attempt to pronounce unfamiliar foreign names exactly as the natives do is a microaggression and therefore doubleplusungood.
Don't you love pooh air toe rico?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM-2xNMQszw
That is why I pronounce "they" as "she" and their as "her."
As in the Western "She Died with Her Boots On".
Sure, why not, unless more than 1 person died.
I think mimicking an accent is rude. So the first rule should be to avoid a fake accent. The second rule is make a fair attempt to say it right using American English phonetics. (I think the "American" is important in there because, as a nation of immigrants, we have absorbed some foreign pronunciations.)
Otherwise, Gaelic names like "Sean" and "Seamus" might come out "seen" and "see-mus."
Not to mention Siobahn.
"English often doesn't adapt the vowel sounds of foreign names, even when those vowels are available in English. Vladimir Putin's name, for instance, would be pronounced more or less like Vladeemeer Pooteen."
The solution is revealed here; if one wishes their name to be pronounced anglicized, then spell it that way. But if you wish it to be pronounced contrary to the way folks have been taught to sound-out words, then choose spelling that encodes the phonemes you wish to hear.
"Lev Tolstoy usually becomes Leo Tolstoy . . . Lev Trotsky usually becomes Leon Trotsky."
OK, I give up. Why did Trotsky get the extra "n"?
Runaway Nflation, of course.
I always use the English norms unless the person corrects me. I think peoples' names should be pronounced the way they want them to.
There's a rich guy in Massachusetts named Ray Stata. Among other things he gave MIT money to build a funny looking building which was named after him. I had the chance to ask him which of two possible pronunciations was correct. He said whichever way I wanted. Pressed for an answer, he said he pronounced it like "state-uh".
I have known several Chinese students who picked an entirely different American name to be called by.
No. A lot of foreign names are not easily pronounceable by Americans. It is rude for them to expect me to speak their language. It is better to say an Americanized version. Next you are going to say I should use their preferred pronouns.
I had a Thai roommate whose nickname was "Od" though his name was actually pronounceable.
Speaking a language and making a good-faith effort at courtesy aren't the same thing. You can make a good faith effort to say the name, get it close, and that's sufficient. The goals are to recognize when someone calls your name and to get by an initial awkwardness where neither name is likely pronounced perfectly.
And for those exact same reasons, yes, you should use someone's preferred pronouns just as you likely expect them to use yours.
You are obligated to do neither, of course, as that is your right.
I know someone with the (Cantonese) surname Ng. I can occasionally get the pronunciation right if I say it a bunch of times, but I can’t retain it or say it consistently. When asked, she says we should pronounce it “Ing” (ie, like the English word-ending) if we find the correct pronunciation hard, in preference to repeatedly retrying or adopting some massively exaggerated version of the correct pronunciation.
I find that a common answer: get it right if you can, if you can't, this is something you can say and is reasonably close.
Is your friend the famous Anna Ng?
"It is rude for them to expect me to speak their language. "
It is rude of you to assume you can say their name any way that you care to.
Once again, all the examples are from Judeo-Christian origins. Asian, and native American names are even more difficult to handle.
I was stumped in a Zoom meeting when an Asian participant named Fuk was included.
How many people other than NY natives can correctly pronounce, Schenectady, Niskayuna, Chittenango, Schaghticoke? How many other than MA natives can pronounce Worcester?
When Carmen Basilo fought for the world welterweight championship in the 50s, the referee stumbled over the name Chittenango, and announced, "And in this corner, from s*** and go New York, Carmen Basilio."
In rural Georgia, young girls turn red and refuse to use my first name Dick. Spell checkers don't turn red, but neither will they let me type Dick without correction.
Proper names are not just difficult, they are super hard to deal with.
The problem is that Basilio's parents gave him a girl's name. He Should have been Carmine (CAR-mine)."
Carmine was his name at birth in Italy, but he changed to use Carmen in the USA. Why? I have no idea.
He had the correct name to begin with; I'm glad to learn that.
A Chinese woman I know had to get a human on the line because the computer flagged her name as offensive.
Not to be confused with Golden Gloves champion Carmine "The Big Ragoo" Ragusa.
I’ll give you Andrew, Peter, and Nicholas (they’re Greek, obviously, but their modern popularity probably comes from the respective Christian saints), but how are Alexander, Leon/Leo, Vladimir, Eugene, or Theodore, Judeo-Christian”?
Granted, native American languages aren't all the same. Having said that, native place names are not unique to New York; they exist call across the country. I'm not even sure how many people realize they're native words at all. We use them all the time. There are some traces of these in Latin American Spanish, as well.
Indeed, such as Kay-roh Ill-in-wah.
Semi-off topic: Anglo readers can't read Cyrillic languages as they are written because of the unknown characters. Can Cyrillic readers read Romance languages? Is the Roman alphabet a subset of Cyrillic and pronounced close enough, or are there some Roman characters which Cyrillic readers pronounce differently? And yes, I know not all Roman-alphabets are pronounced the same. It's a generic question.
A little more off-topic, but in my experience Cyrillic readers, even ones well versed in the Latin alphabet, don't understand why the uniforms of the Russian OMON police (who sometimes break up gay rights rallies) are remarkable, but native Latin alphabet readers get it right away.
Thanks for the chuckle.
I don't get it. (seriously) Can you explain it, for those of us who are humor-impaired? (or who are linguistically simple)
The logo on the uniform is "OMOH" which spelled backwards is a word commonly associated with being gay.
The Roman alphabet is not a subset of Cyrillic; the letters D, F, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R, S, U, V, W, and Z don't exist in Russian Cyrillic, for instance (I does in Ukrainian); B, H, P, X, and Y are pronounced very differently in Russian and in Western European languages; and C is pronounced differently much of the time (in Russian it's always an "S" sound, not a K or a CH sound). The only real overlap is in A, E, K, M, O, and T -- and because of the weird vowel sounds in English, the English/Russian overlap in A, E, and O is quite imperfect, though it's closer for Russian and other European languages.
My guess is that many Cyrillic readers can read the Roman alphabet simply because English (and, to a lesser extent, some other Western European languages) is so prominent in the world. They will thus usually have had more exposure to the Roman alphabet than most Western Europeans have had to the Cyrillic.
Pretty much all I know of Cyrillic is "CCCP."
Dang I was ignorant! Always thought Cyrillic just had extra letters.
I've often thought one reason (not the only or even major) Hitler got all the bad press and Stalin so little was because Russian was not even remotely pronounceable by Europeans, having so many extra characters, thus making the alphabet part of that Iron Curtain even before the Cold War.
Thanks to the war I more or less learned Cyrillic to the extent I can recognize cognates, like Russian/Ukrainian солдат matches French soldat. Both come from Italian soldato. But I would not be likely to pronounce most words close enough to be understood. I don't have a lifetime of experience with soft/hard distinctions and contextual variations in pronunciation.
John F. Carr: Russian is generally spelled quite phonetically, so while there are some contextual variations, they aren't huge. (One does have to know what syllable to accent, to be sure; there's no strong presumption as to accent the way there is in French or Polish.)
The problem with the soft letters is that they just aren't something that people who grew up with English can pronounce without a lot of effort. If people err on that, they can be understood, but I expect not (or at least not easily) if they're trying to talk at a normal conversational pace.
Both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets are derived from Greek. The Latin alphabet split off from Greek a couple of centuries BC, while Cyrillic alphabets did not appear until a millennium of so later, based on Greek pronunciation that had changed in the meantime (eg for the letter "B"). For sounds that did not exist in Greek, Latin alphabets often combined letters (eg "s-h" and "c-h" in English), while Cyrillic would create new letters.
You're equivocating between the derivation of the Latin alphabet from Greek and the derivation of the English alphabet from the Latin one. For sounds that didn't exist in Greek, Latin used its own letters. Latin doesn't do digraph consonants. (There are some digraph vowels, but it's hard to claim that they're an adjustment to an alphabet that didn't support them - plenty of Greek vowels are also digraphs.)
English also introduced several new letters where the Latin alphabet was felt to be inadequate, such as þ, ƿ, and ȝ. They died out later.
French "ch" is not an attempt to combine letters in order to form a sound that the alphabet doesn't support - the spelling came first, and the new sound developed naturally over (a very long) time.
The same appears to be true of English "sh", which was a natural development of pronunciation from what was originally spelled "sc". The pronunciation changed before the spelling did, though the spelling did then move through "sch" to "sh". Possibly under influence from French "ch"?
The lesson here is, it's unusual for anyone designing an alphabet to use digraphs for consonants. That tends to defeat the purpose of the alphabet. But if the same alphabet remains in use for long enough, the sounds it represents will change underneath it and digraphs may arise.
Also, I believe the path from Greek to Cyrillic was more direct than the path from Greek to Roman.
The Roman alphabet developed from the Etruscan/Italic alphabet, which in turn developed from the Greek alphabet. This happened over a period of centuries.
AIUI, St Cyril sought to develop an alphabet to write down the local Slavic language (formalized as Old Slavonian). He used the Greek alphabet and modified it to reflect the relevant sounds. This then comparatively quickly developed into the Cyrillic alphabet.
In general you should call people what they want to be called, on an individual basis.
Blanket statements that it's a microaggression or that it's never discourteous are both wrong.
But as to third parties who aren't there, yeah, stick to what you know.
"Blanket statements that it’s a microaggression or that it’s never discourteous are both wrong."
This morning, I begin the day in agreement with you.
I try to call people I know using the pronunciations they prefer, so long as they're phonemically available to me (and I've never heard anyone insist that I try to pronounce sounds that English speakers generally can't pronounce, or that I try to use tones in speaking Chinese names). But people should understand the limitations of that: If someone named Vladimir insists on being called "Vlahdeemeer" in English, he should expect that people will have a hard time keeping track of that while at the same time calling other Vladimirs "Vlahdimir" or "Vladimir." Likewise, if I were to start calling myself Yevgeniy (pronounced "Yevgeniy," with a "g" as in "good"), I would expect that most people who know me would try to pronounce it the way I prefer, but a lot of them will butcher it, and I won't have much cause to legitimately complain.
Among other things, we know, whether well or in passing, thousands of people. The only way we manage remembering all the pronunciations, especially for people we don't talk to often, is by relying on general patterns: David is always pronounced the same way, Catherine is always pronounced the same way, etc. Asking people to have a special bucket in their memories just for your particular participation is a nontrivial request, especially when multiplied across many such people. Most people will try to oblige, but you have to understand that their ability to effectively do so (and their willingness to try really hard) will be limited.
Yes, if someone is asking for something you just can't do, that is on them.
In general courtesy should be thought of more as a good faith effort than an actual substantive threshold. I am aware some believe differently, but I think that take tends to move towards seeking grievance.
I've done the dance of pronouncing people's after they introduce themselves more times than I care to count; it's just one of those rituals. I try not to come in with an assumption, and just ask. It's good small talk, if nothing else.
The one exception are those I know via e-mail for along time before in person. Then I build up an assumed pronunciation in my head that can be hard to shake.
This is why I ignore personal pronouns. I have enough trouble connecting faces and names; I'm not wasting my brain cells on remembering that some dude with a full beard doesn't like the idea of being referred to as "he" in the third person when out of earshot.
I have known people who wanted special pronunciations of their names, or even unusual name choices. A guy named Charles detested "Charlie" and "Chuck", so few people called him that to his face, but when he wasn't around, no one corrected strangers. That was his gig, not ours.
Prof. Volokh said nothing about not wasting braincells trying to call people what they want to be called.
He just says people should moderate their expectation.
Have you had much chance to put your performative 'I ignore others' pronoun requests because it's too much effort for me' into use?
Someone's butthurt.
I ignore personal pronouns as much as possible. When pronoun people upbraid me, I laugh and make up pronouns for them to try to remember (I certainly don't).
Yeah, your performative assholery sure has freaked out the squares!
What a cool rebel you are.
Suddenly you're conservative?
This post reminded me that one of the variations on the issue is that of the choice among two or more names for the same country or city. For example, it appears that the media have adopted "Myanmar" rather than Burma, for no reason that was obvious. It's common to use English names for Germany or Switzerland, for example, but for some reason we are expected to switch from Peking to Beijing. (Even so, I've never heard anyone order Beijing Duck at a Chinese restaurant.) Bombay? Goodness no!
And the English name for Peking University is still "Peking University."
At least the Chinese still let us call their country "China" and haven't followed the lead of Ceylon and Persia and insisted that we start calling it "Zhōngguó" in order to conform to what people of the country call it when speaking their own language.
"for no reason that was obvious"
The reason is obvious, whether or not it's a good one. The military government changed the "official English" name to Myanmar. It is a complicated issue in the country, to understate it.
Sorry for my artless sentence. I should have written "...for no good reason that was obvious" and my reference was to "our" decision to switch, not the source of the name-change back there in Burma.
I spent a few years annoyed at the world for switching from sensible sounding names to weird names for Chinese places. Now I know both English versions are inaccurate.
Mandarin has pairs of sounds that are nearly the same to my ear but quite distinct to a native speaker. I use the following vowel as a helper. For example 'x', 'q', and 'j' are always followed by a 'i' or 'ü sound'. The similar consonants 'sh', 'ch', and 'zh' never are. (The 'i' in the transliteration 'shi' does not represent an 'i' sound.)
One improvement in the new Pinyin transcription over the former Wade-Giles transcription is getting rid of apostrophes to show "h" sounds. Eg Mao's successor Deng Xiaoping was written "Teng Hsiao-p'ing". As an English-speaker accustomed to seeing apostrophes as punctuation, I could never fix them in my mind as pronounceable letters.
Some Pinyin transcriptions virtually pronounce themselves in English, eg "Beijing" and especially "Shanghai". Others would be deeply confusing, eg the "Zh" and the first "o" in "Zhongguo" (China, literally "Middle Kingdom").
So you're still referring to St Petersburg, Russia as "Leningrad?!"
I never, ever, not even once, referred to St Petersburg as "Leningrad" so your question is based on a faulty assumption.
Not a name, but I remember during the Falkland islands war, all the nightly newscasters kept referring to Argentina’s ruling military junta, pronouncing junta with a hard J. Very jarring to the ear.
Brings up the Falklands/Malvinas kerfuffle.
That just seems odd -- "hoonta" seems to be the standard English pronunciation, even though it departs from the norms for other words that start with "ju."
FWIW, Merriam-Webster lists both versions. I always thought the 'J' version was more common, but in fairness I see it written much more often than spoken.
According to Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/junta#Pronunciation) the j sound is used in the UK and the h sound in USA. I would guess that Americans have more exposure to Spanish.
The one reasonably consistent rule is: Americans have a lot more exposure to Spanish, Brits have a lot more exposure to French.
While there isn't a general expectation that Americans can speak Spanish or Brits can speak French, there is one that educated ones know the pronunciation rules of those languages and can recognise the fact that a word is from one of those languages.
Indeed. We call the current king of Spain "Felipe VI," but his five predecessors who bore the same Spanish name were (and still are, to the best of my knowledge) called "Philip I," "Philip II," etc.
They still are. Americans are used to it being Felipe, so no problem.
For translation of names, I wonder how much of an influence the practice of writing formal documents in Latin had. Names were often (not always) translated into Latin along with the rest of the document, and having all the names of every European monarch rendered in Latin would facilitate de-translating them into whatever the local equivalent of the Latin name was, as opposed to the original foreign name.
In the medieval period, in Catholic (ie Western, this is pre-Reformation) Europe, the normal practice was that people regarded all of the different versions as being their name. So Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire was known as Federigo in Sicily, but Friedrich in Germany. It was normally written Fridericus (in Latin), of course - though vernacular writing was getting started at that point, so you do see both the Sicilian and German forms in documents.
But there was no sense that any one of those forms was the "correct" or "true" form of the name - there was, rather, a sense that the name could be translated between languages just as much as any other word could be, and that you would no more refer to a Frenchman as "Jean" rather than "John", than you would refer to a chair as a "chaise" if it had been made in France.
The concept that names were not translatable and have a single canonical form - in both spelling and pronunciation - based on the usage of the person themselves (or for a placename, of the residents) is decidedly modern. I think it got started in the nineteenth century in relation to other Europeans - Frederick II of Prussia was consistently called "Frederick" in England. His great-great-great-grandnephew was consistently "Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany", not William. The intervening monarchs tended not to attract enough interest for it to be entirely clear when the change took place - but it's somewhere in the nineteenth century, at least for entirely new names; obviously many places and people that already had an English exonym continued to see that name used.
Interesting read. My given name is Basil, and I know of at least four different pronunciations in English alone:
Baysil, with a soft s, long a, how my Dad pronounced his name. Bayzil, with a rough s, long a, how I pronounce it. Bazil, with a short a, as in Basil Rathbone, the proper English way. Bazeel, with a short a.
I imagine my Russian friends (if I had any) might call me Vaseeli.
I’ll sign of with a knickname my high school compatriots game me:
The Baz
I named one of my cats "Basil" after the English puppet star Basil Brush and my American friends get corrected whenever they pronounce it "Bayzil".
The pronunciation that echoes in my mind is Sybil's irritated shout in "Fawlty Towers": "Basil!"
Most people on meeting me mispronounce my last name as a similarly spelled German name instead of the English name it is. My name is uncommon but the pronunciation is easy and follows from the spelling.
Research and find online variations in pronouncing
[Anthony J.] Powell author
Joao
Or, travel to different US states and learn new English languages.
A root of the problem is that English lacks a proper phonetic script. We learn at an early age to leave Spanish vowels alone, rather than trying to contort them into English "long-vowel" pronunciation. There is little temptation to rewrite foreign names into phonetic English, because a phonetic English rendition is often not at all obvious. Educated Americans are attuned to the likelihood that a foreign name is pronounced under foreign rules.
I once had an Okie boss who told me of a venture, in his younger years, across the border to a Texas town. He asked locals where to find "Hyoo-co Street," to be met with bafflement. Finally, one asked him, "You don't know any Spanish, do you?" It was explained to him that "Hueco" was pronounced "Waco".
Not that much. The northern California city of Chico has a long "i" in English. Most Spanish place names get similar treatment. San's "a" is seldom pronounced as in Spanish. Los Angeles used to be a good-g, now it's a gee-g.
Never been to Chico, huh?
Here's an official video from Chico state that took less than 20 seconds to find: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovhqFGSRM4
We may have a different understanding of what the term "long" means in phonetics. A long 'i' would be pronounced "eye" -- so in your example "Chico" would be Ch-eye-ko. In Spanish, of course, the 'i' is a very high front vowel, a kind of 'eee' sound.
"Byoona Vistuh" as the local pronunciation for a town named "Buena Vista" is an amusing case.
There's a distinction between foreign names and foreign pronunciation. "Livorno" can readily be pronounced, but in English it's still "Leghorn". (No Merrie Melodies jokes, please, boy, I said please). Florence is the English name of Firenze. etc.
There's a footballer currently playing in the WC named Sebastian Coates. His father's ancestry was English, but he's Uruguayan. Consequently his surname is pronounced "Co-ahtez". And when he played in England, it was still pronounced like that.
I say, I say... no problem!
Pronouncing foreigner's names? How they ask you to.
It's really that simple.
Hell, I just met a new guy yesterday. I'd been hearing about him for a month, but didn't meet him until yesterday. Turns out everyone in the office had been pronouncing his name wrong the whole time. He corrected us, we move on.
Acting like it's some moral affront for someone to say "no, that's not how you pronounce my name, it's X" is to be an entitled brat.
It is not possible for the average person to comply with a request to pronounce a foreign name correctly. A name like Zoe, Stata, or Gentile comes with two straightforward American English pronunciations and I'll pick the one you like. But there are many languages with sounds or nuances that are not possible to reproduce without a lot of practice, and maybe not even then. The languages of the Caucasus have twice as many distinct consonants as English. The languages of southeastern Africa often have clicks. I can approximate the click in "Xhosa" in isolation but I will not be able to say the whole word correctly at normal speed unless I practice a lot with a fluent speaker to give feedback. Some languages have several distinct clicks. Others have the air going in instead of out. Arabic has sounds that would make me sprain my throat, some I can't reproduce despite watching several YouTube videos on the subject, and some allegedly distinct letters that are identical as far as I can hear. The languages of southeast Asia tend to have tones and you may not be able to hear the difference between them.
A Chinese guy I know with limited spoken English calls me 酱 (jiàng). It's a reasonable approximation. It would be unfair to demand he practice the correct American English pronunciation.
Well, except that it's really easy to get much closer to the American pronunciation by staying entirely within Chinese. Why would he call you 酱 instead of 站?
A Chinese immigrant co-worker calls me "Shawn." It's the same pronunciation of his own name, "Xiong." Thing is, the American English assumed pronunciation would be something like "Zhong." Simply asking him to pronounce it for me was easy enough and the English translation was a standard Gaelic name.
Most of the Asian immigrants I work with chose Anglo names rather than deal with the situation. Asian American coworkers have English names or easy-to-pronounce names for English speakers (likely as a result of their parents' experiences.)
Written like someone who has never talked with someone who chose an English name they can't actually pronounce or speaks another variety of English. I'm certainly not going to badly affect an accent and mock someone.
When I took Japenese, one of the lessons was on how to translate my name into something the locals could actually pronounce. The th and r sounds in my name just don't exist in Japanese, and as a considerate person I don't get pay at people for having trouble with it. I would expect the same politeness from others.
A long dead Turkish guy’s name was Uthman, from Arabic. We know him as Osman or Ottoman because his name passed through languages without a th sound before arriving in English, which does. Turkish consistently represents Arabic ث (th) as s, so Osman. To Europeans it must have sounded more like t, so Ottoman. We see a similar split in treatment of the kh sound. It is widespread in Europe and Asia but is not used in standard English. In standard English kh turns into k, so Khan is pronounced Kan and Kharkov is pronounced Karkov. In some languages kh turns into h instead. Standard Turkish spells and pronounces the city as Harkov.
The claim about English is not correct; it is one of the languages where the sound you're referring to is interpreted as /h/. Try listening to Wikipedia's recordings of the names of Genghis Khan in Mongolian or Kharkov in Ukrainian.
The reason those names are pronounced with /k/ in English is not their foreign pronunciation, it is their spelling.
Standard English has no natural voiceless velar fricative, unlike say German or Hebrew or some dialects, notably Scottish. And not only does this mean it’s common enough for a foreign import to convert say the “kh” to a “k” or an “h” but many native speakers cannot actually pronounce the sound properly – a phenomenon most evident when boys who’ve never had occasion to speak Hebrew begin learning their barmitzvah portion.
The decision whether it’s a k or h in English seems to be largely accidental. That Kharkiv and khan begin with a k seems to make the k more natural, yet “charoset” or “chanukah” are often found with an initial h. Or perhaps to someone who can kinda pronounce charoset, it’s more natural to retain the h – requiring less effort from the tongue.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is neither a "th" nor "r" in "Illocust."
All good. But why do we call ketchup with extra vinegar "Russian Dressing"?
Certainly, I'm not opposed to it: anything that covers the taste of grass-like edibles is appreciated. I simply pose the question as part of a discussion of animate/inanimate object naming.
For the same reason we cut ham in a circle and call it Canadian bacon.
As far as I know, most countries produce transliteration as it is customary for them. Sometimes it's a little inconvenient, but notarized translation and apostille is an affordable and inexpensive measure for all important documents. If you look at ordinary people, then everyone communicates as stated from the very beginning of the acquaintance. The easiest way to track it is through the chatting site - https://spicydatefinder.com/ They often look for singles from another country and never have problems with naming))