The Volokh Conspiracy
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Senators Reach Bipartisan Deal to Pass Respect for Marriage Act Protecting Right to Same-Sex Marriage
The deal includes several amendments to the original draft legislation that are unlikely to have much substantive effect.
Earlier today, a bipartisan group of senators reached agreement on a package of amendments to the Respect for Marriage Act (RMA) that ensure it will have at least 60 votes in the Senate, enough to defeat a filibuster. As I explained in a post on the original legislation, which passed the House of Representatives in July, RMA arose from fears that the Supreme Court's reversal of Roe v. Wade in Dobbs presages a reversal of Obergefell v. Hodges, the 2015 ruling striking down state laws barring same-sex marriage.
Section 3 of the original RMA bars states from denying recognition to marriages contracted in other states "on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin" of the parties to the marriage. Section 4 requires the federal government to recognize - for purposes of federal law - any marriage that is "valid in the State where the marriage was entered into or, in the case of a marriage entered into outside any State, if the marriage is valid in the place where entered into and the marriage could have been entered into in a State." It thereby negates a key provision of the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act.
According to a summary released by Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin), the deal announced today includes the following modifications to the Respect for Marriage Act:
•Protects all religious liberty and conscience protections available under the Constitution or Federal law, including but not limited to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and prevents this bill from being used to diminish or repeal any such protection.
• Confirms that non-profit religious organizations will not be required to provide any services, facilities, or goods for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage.
• Guarantees that this bill may not be used to deny or alter any benefit, right, or status of an otherwise eligible person or entity – including tax-exempt status, tax treatment, grants, contracts, agreements, guarantees, educational funding, loans, scholarships, licenses, certifications, accreditations, claims, or defenses – provided that the benefit, right, or status does not arise from a marriage.
• For instance, a church, university, or other nonprofit's eligibility for tax-exempt status is unrelated to marriage, so its status would not be affected by this legislation.
• Makes clear that the bill does not require or authorize the federal government to recognize polygamous marriages.
• Recognizes the importance of marriage, acknowledges that diverse beliefs and the people who hold them are due respect, and affirms that couples, including same-sex and interracial couples, deserve the dignity, stability, and ongoing protection of marriage.
Most of these modifications don't actually alter the original bill in any meaningful way. For example, nothing in the original RMA in any way infringed on the religious liberty of churches and other private organizations. The bill only imposed obligations on state and federal governments, not private parties. Similarly, the original draft in no way threatened anyone's tax exemptions or accreditations.
The exception is the polygamy provision. As I explained in a previous post, the original RMA would indeed have required the federal government to recognize polygamous marriages if a state were to legalize them. The amendment in today's deal would prevent that. I myself have no objection to recognition of polygamous marriages. But many on both left and right feel otherwise, albeit for somewhat different reasons. In any event, this provision is of limited significance, because it is highly unlikely that any state will in fact legalize polygamy anytime soon.
If the now-revised RMA passes, it would provide significant protection for same-sex marriage. But it would not be a complete substitute for Obergefell, should the Supreme Court actually overrule the latter. I explained why in my previous post:
Our federalism objection to Section 3 of DOMA was that it sought to use federal power to push for a uniform nationwide definition of marriage…. By contrast, Section 4 of the Respect for Marriage Act does the exact opposite. It gives total deference to states' definition of marriage. If state law says that a given relationship qualifies as a marriage, that's good enough for Uncle Sam! Call it state autonomy on steroids….
It's worth emphasizing that Section 4 avoids federalism problems in large part because it does not actually compel states to recognize same-sex marriages, or indeed any other kind of marriages. It just says that if a state does recognize them, the federal government will, as well. In that respect, it falls short of offering the degree of protection for same-sex marriage that currently exists under Obergefell.
Section 4 bars states from denying recognition to same-sex marriages contracted elsewhere. But it does not require them to allow such marriages to be formed within their own territories. Nonetheless, Section 4 would potentially allow residents of states that bar same-sex marriages to enter into them in another state, and then come home, secure in the knowledge that their home state will have to recognize their marriage.
For reasons I summarized here, I think a reversal of Obergefell is highly unlikely. See also co-blogger Dale Carpenter's analysis of that issue. But the now near-certain enactment of the revised RMA will provide some valuable protection to same-sex couples in the event our predictions turn out to be wrong.
If Obergefell does get overruled, Section 4 could potentially be vulnerable to claims that it is beyond the scope of Congress' authority. In my view, it should be upheld against such challenges under Congress' authority under the Full Faith and Credit Clause. See also this analysis by Steve Sanders, a leading academic expert on the Clause.
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Fantastic! Mitch "The Turtle" and Mitt Romeney can take their forbidden love pubic....
The federal govt has no authority over marriage period. This is just the slow drum beat of cultural marxism being forced down our throats. It has been a long march for the bolshies who have been pushing the destruction of morality and family for decades. marriage is a States concern not the Federal Govt. But hell if there is no definition of a woman then why not polygamy. and next an AI robot..why not..anything goes right Reason? MAP..is the next "civil rights" crusade. Statues to Epstein on the Capital next?
"• Confirms that non–profit religious organizations will not be required to provide any services, facilities, or goods for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage."
...but what about filthy running-dog capitalists? Will *they* be forced to provide services, facilities or goods for the solemnization or celebration of" SSM? They're at the mercy of judicial interpretations of the various Religious Freedom Restoration Acts, except in states which have no such acts, I suppose.
Well, it doesn't matter because only small businesses would be affected, large corporations are already enlightened enough that the law would simply tell to do what they're doing anyway.
"Freedom" for some (as in "freedom to marry who you love"), coercion for others.
So it's coercive to allow people to marry, but not coercive to forbid them?
This actually scales up as a model for most elements of the right-wing culture of grievance-and-resenment.
No, it's coercive to force people to bake cakes to celebrate anal-sex based marriages.
It's coercive to enforce all laws, it's coervice that people are forced to bake cakes just to make a living.
Yes, which is why we should be judicious about what laws we pass. Ensuring that a man who likes to ejaculate into another man's anus can get a cake form the bakery of his choice is not a legitimate government function.
Is there, what, some sort of form you have to fill in before you can order a cake?
How is it coercing you for someone else to conduct their personal life as they see fit?
It's none of my business if my neighbor marries one person or twelve.
The problem isn't that gay marriage is legal. The problem is that more than half of America has been brainwashed by the liberal media to think it's acceptable for a gay man to insert his penis into another man's rectum and to ejaculate inside.
My brother in christ, it's also acceptable for a man to do this with a woman.
No, the problem is that marriage is supposed to be about children.
A license to create children..
.
LOL. Marriage is only about children?
So in your totalitarian world impotent men shouldn’t be allowed to marry? Women who can’t bear children? How about a 70 year old widow and a 70 year old widower? No to them too I guess. And let’s not forget paraplegics and others like them. Wouldn’t want those barren vessels getting hitched and not having kids.
You specialize in absurd extreme totalitarian assertions.
Marriage is not ONLY about children, but that was its primary purpose as an institution.
More specifically, to declare children "legitimate" for the purposes of inheritance. This has become moot as we now allow "illegitimate" children to claim a share of a parent's estate.
It is a marriage LICENSE -- it is the state granting permission to do something.
And what right should the state have when children aren't involved?
Gay couples adopt.
What right should the state have at all?
And you ignored all the questions about what your version of totalitarianism would allow for people who for whatever reason can't have children. No marriage for them?
This point about children is ridiculous.
"impotent men shouldn’t be allowed to marry?" -- Possibly, but the government has no records of who is impotent, so it is impractical.
If the criteria for getting married requires children, under Ed’s regime the state can require a test before issuing the license.
Uh, creating children requires no license. Simple biology indicates that conception arises from the sexual coupling of a fertile woman and a virile man. The participants may be unmarried, married to each other, or married to another person.
Yes, but society used to ostracize creating children outside of wedlock. And we were a better place back then.
And before DNA testing, it was the basis of getting men to support their children.
I'm glad you think my marriage to my wife, whom I didn't even meet until our mid 40's and is incapable of having children due to having survived ovarian cancer, is illegitimate.
You can take that warped viewpoint and stick it where the sun don't shine.
I'm not surprised that you weren't able to find a mate until you're mid-40s.
What do you care what free people do?
"Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another."
Why do you celebrate such disgusting acts?
Who's celebrating? It's simply not my business or concern what other consenting adults do. That's how a free society works.
That's a pretty graphic description.
You haven't been watching certain videos. . . or have you?
Either troll or just a normal crazy American. Harder to tell these days.
Why can't two (or more) siblings or parent and child, of legal consenting age, get married?
Actually, if one state legalizes it, it becomes legal nationally.
What do you care what other free people do?
Have you seen San Francisco or LA recently? No man is an island.
Disgusting places. Still not my business or concern.
Obergefell is supposedly based on the Constitution. So if it’s used to legalize polygamous marriages, that’s also going to be based on the Constitution, and in turn this means that the act’s provision that prohibits polygamous marriages will be void.
The only situation where this provision would matter is if 1) Obergefell is overturned, but 2) polygamous marriages are forced through by the ciourts *anyway*, which seems like an unlikely combination.
Polygamy will be legal in 20 years.
What do you care what other free people do?
NAMBLA?
It was obvious that Krayt was talking about consenting adults, so your attempt at distraction is just the usual bigoted attempt to equate gay men and pedophiles.
They're consistent in their bigotry at the least.
NAMBLA? Is there a Straight same organization? Just asking..maybe there is..
Unforuntately child marriage is legal in some states, which is an issue that deserves to be more than just your homophobic punchline.
In Kentucky, a girl under age 15 is not truant if she is married.
The Mass DESE would beg to differ.
Well there you go.
"Free people" do not walk onto my property and demand I serve them against my will -- what people do on their own property is there business.
“Free people” do not walk onto my website and demand I serve them against my will — what people do on with own property is there business.
Yes. And?
Great business PR, that - DON'T YOU DARE COME INTO THIS SHOP AND FORCE ME TO SELL TO YOU AGAINST MY WILL
Agreed -- but do you or I OWN the property???
Does the costumer have to engage in abstruse constitutional debate every time they want to buy a bun?
SO, so much for a "free people?"
'NO SOUP FOR YOU UNTIL WE DISCUSS TODAY'S TODAY IN SUPREME COURT HISTORY!'
So, I'll put you down in the "Bake the gay Nazi cake!!!!" camp.
'Gay nazi KayKK' more like
Wow. All of these “libertarians” on here that are fine with personal liberty, as long as those other people us their freedom to choose what y’all think they should do.
WTF does it matter to you who someone else marries? Y’all are acting like progressives.
I could easily change the question and ask why it matters whether someone bakes a cake for a same-sex ceremony, or caters such an event, or photographs it?
Apparently, the bill would at best leave that question up in the air – the only specific protection it gives is to religious nonprofits. If you’re not organized as a nonprofit, but are a small business trying to make ends meet, then this bill leaves you twisting in the wind with no explicit guarantee of protection. You’re at risk of financially-crippling litigation – because you’re a capitalist seeking dirty, filthy profits. Sure, you can roll the dice and invoke the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and maybe you win and maybe you lose, but you’ll have to spend a lot of money in either, case, money which a small or family business can’t afford to lose.
Again, the woke megacorporations don’t have to worry about this sort of thing because they are already following the policies which they’re trying to cram down the throats of small businesses.
Politicians of both parties are busy cashing their corporate donations and preening themselves on their moral superiority while putting their jackboots on the necks of small business.
Different question though. 180 degrees different.
One is allowing someone to do what they want to do and the other involves forcing someone to do something they don’t. And it doesn’t follow that one will cause the other – 99.999% of the catering for gay weddings is done with no controversy at all.
I’m sympathetic to your point but it doesn’t mean that two consenting adults shouldn’t be allowed to marry.
Honestly, if someone didn’t want to make the cake for my (straight) wedding. I wouldn’t want them forced to do so anyway. Anyone who wants to avoid getting my business I’m more than happy to oblige.
Honestly, if someone didn’t want to make the cake for my (straight) wedding. I wouldn’t want them forced to do so anyway. Anyone who wants to avoid getting my business I’m more than happy to oblige.
Think about how anti-discrimination laws came about in the first place. If it had been the occasional bigot here or there that didn't want Black people in their businesses, then they could have simply taken their money and business to those that were happy to serve them. There wouldn't even really have been a need for the Civil Rights Act or other anti-discrimination laws.
But, in reality, the systemic racism (not even just limited to the South) kept Black people from accessing large parts of public life, including employment and many goods and services. That was because it wasn't just a few bigots here and there, but discrimination that was pervasive throughout most of society. And while openly racist business owners and other private organizations are rare now, it is still important to have those laws for the cases where the racism isn't so open and obvious. And it is also going to be the case that not all people will have the means to simply find a business that won't discriminate against them, nor should they have to.
Until quite recently, the same level of prejudice was aligned against LGBTQ individuals. Thus, it makes perfect sense to me for LGBTQ status to be included in anti-discrimination laws.
Yeah, I know. But it’s a cake. Sometimes it’s just better to leave people alone. Why give people who hate you more ammunition to do so?
Yeah, I know. But it’s a cake. Sometimes it’s just better to leave people alone. Why give people who hate you more ammunition to do so?
Well, why give them a pass rather than call them out on their irrational hate? If it is the legal consequences of refusing to bake the cake that you don't like, then what if the rejected same sex couple had chosen to organize a demonstration outside the bakery? Would that be "cancel culture" that would drive the baker and his supporters to claim that they were the real victims just as much as the lawsuit did?
Prejudice and discrimination can't just be ignored and bigots just left alone. Hate needs to be confronted for what it is.
You're a sick, hateful person.
Yes, like that, only directed at persons who are actually sick and hateful. Try that Nooroowhatever guy.
So, sellers can't discriminate but buyers can? that was the problem of the CRA wasn't it? They should have called it a day after they wrote govt can't discriminate nor can they pass a law forcing people to. if you want to discriminate you can. Need to trim down the CRA to what is consistent with a free society.
No, it wasn't. There may have been prejudice against gay people, but there was never any "systemic discrimination that kept them from accessing large parts of public life."
David, may I ask a question?
In elementary school, and then college, I was taught in civics classes that marriage was a state matter, not a federal matter. That is, laws on marriage, licensing, dissolution - all of it - was a state matter (under their police powers?). Rightly or wrongly, this is what I was taught.
If this law is passed, is that federalizing marriage and making marriage a federal (not state) matter, in your estimation?
No. This bill only deals with how the federal government and other states treat a marriage permitted by a state as determined solely by that state.
Perhaps I overstated it somewhat with the "same level" wording, but, on the other hand, all 50 states had criminal laws against same sex sexual relations in 1962, and Lawrence was decided in 2003.
DOMA was passed by Congress and signed by Bill Clinton in 1996, forbidding the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages, regardless of their legality where they were performed. And relieved states from having to recognize them if other states allowed them. (None did at the time.) Basically, this law seems to be the direct opposite of DOMA.
It was also under Clinton that "Don't ask, don't tell" became a thing in 1993. (That seemed like a compromise, as gays could serve, as long as it didn't become known that they were gay.) It was in 2011 that being openly gay was permitted in the U.S. military.
Even now, around half the states do not have laws prohibiting housing discrimination based on sexual orientation. (HUD regulations prohibit discrimination on that basis of any housing providers that receive HUD funding.)
Perhaps prejudice and discrimination against LGBTQ people wasn't quite as bad as it was for Black Americans, especially if they remained "in the closet." But those are a lot of restrictions on public life that gay people had to endure, and it remained federal and state government policy for decades after the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
I'm aware of the history, but shouldn't today's laws should address today's conditions? Generally speaking, our gay friends don't seem to have any problem getting health care, being served in restaurants, getting hotel rooms, etc, etc. Businesses really don't seem interested in anything but the color of their money. Wedding cake bakers and photographers seem like the only people who care at all, and very few of them.
It's quite a bit different from black heart attack victims getting turned away from emergency rooms.
In 1980ish my now-wife and I went apartment shopping, even though the wedding was scheduled for six months later. We were a little concerned that landlords would not rent to people who were, you know, living in sin. That was still an issue at the time, but my sense is it hasn't been an issue for some time. Should we, *today*, outlaw the rare landlord who objects?
There's probably not much chattel slavery these days either but I would oppose repealing the 13th Amendment.
I find the baker and the florist to be very difficult cases and I see both sides of it. On the one hand, we either have anti-discrimination laws or we don't, and if we're going to allow anyone who disagrees with anti-discrimination laws to ignore them, then we effectively no longer have anti-discrimination laws. Plus, religion is the cause of much anti-gay prejudice so I'm really not sure why the thing that is causing the problem in the first place should be given an exemption.
On the other hand, getting a wedding cake is not a necessity in the same way that employment and housing are necessities, and I think the further one moves away from necessities, the less interest the state has in it.
"On the one hand, we either have anti-discrimination laws or we don’t, and if we’re going to allow anyone who disagrees with anti-discrimination laws to ignore them, then we effectively no longer have anti-discrimination laws."
Works for me. I see no principled case for anti-discrimination laws, and the unprincipled case only really had any salience where the service in question was vital and subject to a local monopoly.
A traveler stranded in a storm denied a hotel room or a hot meal they could pay for, where no other source of it was feasibly available, shivering hungry under a bridge, was heart rending enough to drive people to make exceptions from fundamental principles.
A person having to buy their damned cake next door? Not even a tiny bit. That's not about the person buying the cake, it's about punishing the baker for Wrongthink.
A traveler stranded in a storm denied a hotel room or a hot meal they could pay for, where no other source of it was feasibly available, shivering hungry under a bridge, was heart rending enough to drive people to make exceptions from fundamental principles.
This hardly constitutes the whole case for public accommodation laws. As usual, you have no grasp of the nature of racial discrimination before the civil rights era.
The history of de facto discrimination shows where your formalist ideas go to: a society unfree for both customers of discriminated against cohorts, and businesses de-facto barred from their choice of association.
You continue to deny history because that's the only way you can claim your system is actually one that seeks freedom, versus just indulging bigotry.
As for cakes, the line the courts are drawing seems the right one to me - basing it on individual expression. If a cake is picked off a chart, it's just a product. If it's custom-made, then it's individual expression and expressive association can become important.
That you can't handle such nuance does not change it's importance.
Form over function will end in tyranny in the name of freedom.
"This hardly constitutes the whole case for public accommodation laws."
No, but it does constitute the whole case for them that actually moves people with an even remotely libertarian view of rights.
If you don't care about the rights of businessmen to pick who they'll work for, obviously you have no principled objection to such laws to overcome in the first place. But that's not all of us.
No disagreement here. FWIW, my view is that anti-discrimination laws/affirmative action are big hammers. In say 1970, we had a big problem, and a big hammer was an entirely appropriate tool for the job - but as the big hammer gradually effects the change you want, you have to ask at what point whomping on things with a big hammer is still appropriate.
I don't have a perfect heuristic for when that is - you can't make a perfectly fair society. My rough guess is to look at the discrimination that ugly people face, which is non-trivial. For example, CEOs are on the average taller and less likely to be bald than the population at large, and I doubt that managerial competence is affected by either of those. There are many other examples, I'm sure. But I don't think you can eliminate that bias. So, generally speaking, once the discrimination that Group X faces declines to a level on par with the discrimination that ugly people face, I'm ready to move on to some other problem.
(anecdote alert: ten years or so ago WA was considering adding being gay to the do-not-discriminate-in-employment list. A gay co-worker mentioned it, and I was curious to know how serious of a problem he thought anti-gay discrimination in employment was. So I asked "Suppose you are out of work, and really need a job to pay the bills. You have to go to the interview wearing either a pro-gay-rights t-shirt, or a pro-gun-rights t-shirt. Which do you choose?". His answer was unequivocal - at least in Seattle, the pro-gun-rights shirt was going to cost you a lot more jobs than the pro-gay-rights one. In his view, it wasn't even close.
While we wish that people would make employment decisions solely on competence, I fear there is an irreducible minimum of various kinds of bias out there, and trying to make the playing field completely flat is going to be a never ending game of whack-a-mole)
Amended to 'while being openly gay' it's closer to the truth.
David, in the year I was born, gay sex was a crime in all 50 states, gay marriage was illegal in all 50 states, gays were excluded from military service, gays were excluded from the federal civil service, the police routinely harassed gay establishments, and being openly gay generally made someone unemployable in any but the most menial of jobs. Several states barred homosexuals from holding professional licenses; my own state of Florida refused gays admission to the state bar. You are simply mistaken in your history.
And there was a simple solution for these people. Stay in the closet and leave the rest of us alone.
Closet is empty now, if you need a safe space.
"There may have been prejudice against gay people, but there was never any 'systemic discrimination that kept them from accessing large parts of public life.'”
It may not have involved "public life," but prior to Lawrence v. Texas, many states criminalized same sex coupling. That was plainly systematic discrimination.
Except that those laws were virtually never enforced, except against public sex. That's why many people suspect that Lawrence v. Texas was actually a setup. (See former VCer Dale Carpenter's book on the case for the background.)
You’re missing the larger role government played in that. Say it’s 1955 and I owned a lunch counter in Birmingham, AL and I wanted it to be open to everyone. I sill couldn’t because the law prevented me from doing so. To simply chalk it up to racism is a simplistic view that ignores the thousands upon thousands of people of good will who’s hands were tied by an evil system they were also forced to live under.
It wasn't just the law, though. It was also just plain white folks wouldn't patronize you anymore, lest they be shunned. Or worse.
This too.
It would have been economically irrational to serve black customers.
Ask Woolworth's.
Not saying it was just the law, but the law precluded any attempt at social change.
If you really wanted to offer equal access you'd have had to open, for lack of a better term, a "blackeasy".
I'd argue that federal law requiring social change was the only attempt at social change that proved viable.
Say it’s 1955 and I owned a lunch counter in Birmingham, AL and I wanted it to be open to everyone.....To simply chalk it up to racism is a simplistic view that ignores the thousands upon thousands of people of good will who’s hands were tied by an evil system they were also forced to live under.
There may have been one such white person in Birmingham in 1955, but probably not. I in fact lived in Birmingham in the late 1950's and early 1960's. I know whereof I speak.
As I have said many times, the Jim Crow laws were not imposed by some outside force. They were enormously popular. Politicians campaigned on strengthening, not weakening, them. There simply were not "thousands of people of good will who’s hands were tied by an evil system."
In fact, there would have been almost as much discrimination without the Jim Crow laws. There were many highly discriminatory practices - in employment for example - that were not mandated by law. There was also extensive discrimination outside the south, in places where there were no Jim Crow laws.
The argument that "The terrible government made me do it" is libertarian fantasy.
Nobody in Birmingham Alabama complained about outside agitators and commies coming in and forcing them to be racist.
Nonsense. While a lot of people opposed gay marriage, there was no pervasive inability to get a cake. These laws are about punishing people who don't conform. Period.
We're discussing the actual bill (or the summary they've deigned to release), and the actual bill has protections for religious nonprofits. For-profit businesses are left to the vagaries of RFRA, and as I've alluded to, even if you win a lawsuit with RFRA (which isn't guaranteed), there's still considerable legal expense.
This was never about leaving people alone, it was about harnessing the power of the state to give some people validation for their choices while crushing underfoot those who don't provide that validation.
This was never about leaving people alone, it was about harnessing the power of the state to give some people validation for their choices while crushing underfoot those who don’t provide that validation.
Is it harnessing the power of the state to provide "validation" for people of races that aren't the majority to prohibit discrimination by race?
This is the backwards nature of your thinking. Owning a business where you don't have to know much about your customers means that you aren't providing "validation" to their personal choices when you serve them.
Here's the whole thing about baking wedding cakes: It would be really weird for a baker to ask anything personal about a straight couple before agreeing to bake them a wedding cake. Are you waiting until marriage before having sex? No? That's a sin, no cake for you! Are either of you divorced Catholics? Yes? That's a sin, no cake for you! If that never happens, as I suspect to be true, then it is because bakers don't feel that it is any of their business, even if they do have religious beliefs to the contrary.
They wouldn't have thought it their business to ask personal questions about whether opposite sex couples are engaging in sin, so they can pretend that it just isn't happening. But they can't do that with a same sex couple. (Unless, of course, only one of them comes to order the cake and doesn't say anything about who the partner is.) This is where virtually all of these religious objection cases come from. An employee using their wages to buy birth control doesn't concern the nuns, because they can pretend that they don't know about it. A craft store owner can pretend that his employees won't use the wages he pays them to use what he thinks are abortifacients. But as soon as they know that it will happen, they suddenly feel that it is their business to stand in the way of it happening or else they would be "complicit in sin."
When it comes to being left alone, these business owners should take that advice and leave their customers alone to make their own choices and just serve them the same as they would anyone else.
That escalated quickly...now you'd force an order of nuns to furnish birth-control to their employees. And you'd do it under the same principle by which you'd force a baker to serve a gay wedding.
Yes, I agree that these are similar issues, and that coercing the baker and coercing the nuns is pretty much the same sort of thing.
Personally, I'd certainly deny an order of nuns any say over anyone's healthcare.
The Little Sisters of the Poor and their care for the elderly is at least related to health care.
They care for the elderly for free based on their religious beliefs. For years, they've had to divert attention from their core mission because the government wants them to provide birth control to their employees. What possible justification is there for this harassment, if as you say employees could simply pay for birth control out of their salaries?
It's not harassment. It's protecting their employees' access to health care.
Money is fungible. This isn't about the employees having access, it's about making sure the employer has to be complicit.
It's like if you worked at a Kosher deli, you could always take your paycheck and buy ham someplace else. But the government insists that your employer deliver part of your pay in the form of vouchers redeemable in the form of ham. They're not doing that to get you ham, they're doing that to force the deli to pay specifically for ham.
This isn’t about the employees having access, it’s about making sure the employer has to be complicit.
How do you know this? How do you know it's not about health care and instead about some social control bullshit?
Yet again you insist persecution but it could just be standard living in a society.
Your indictment of the US health care system is something the left has been saying for years, but you seem to be only applying it to folks who want to discriminate against gays?
I know that because they were paying their employees in money, which could be used to buy the birth control. So their ability to buy birth control was not at stake, it never had been. And every alternative they offered inevitably involved making the Little Sisters complicit.
Except our system of health care involves employer subsidies and bargaining as a vital part of the system.
Don't pretend this would be an equivalent exchange; you're not so ignorant of our system as that.
I have no idea why a kosher deli would object to being required to pay non-Jewish workers in ham vouchers, apart from it being a bit weird and suspiciously sepcific, as if they were part of an unlikely hypothetical. They’re not being required to eat or even handle the stuff, after all. Like the nuns and contraception. Jewish workers, now, they might be miffed, unless they could be easily traded for like or greater value, which is still a bloody cumbersome system, why the hell would anyone use such a system?
‘So their ability to buy birth control was not at stake’
Irrelevant – they access health care via employee insurance, they have the right to access to all of it.
"they access health care via employee insurance, they have the right to access to all of it. "
You've got some weird ideas about health insurance, that's for sure.
Look, arthritis runs in my family. Mine started in my early 50's, I've mostly staved it off for a couple decades by taking a supplement, SAMe.
It would be nice if my health insurance covered it, but it doesn't. Is that some kind of rights violation the law shouldn't tolerate? Alongside my dental insurance not paying for toothpaste and floss?
Well, this is a new thesis.
Now you're conflating insurance companies with employers.
I guess you abandoned the post of insisting being uninsured and insured is the same so long as you have a salary.
Yes, you should have the right to access the health care you need, it's not that difficult. It shows why an insurance-based system sucks, that's for sure.
And every alternative they offered inevitably involved making the Little Sisters complicit.
I go into more detail in my reply to Margrave, but this is not a good argument on their part. They only saw themselves as "complicit" because they could find a way to put obstacles in their employees engaging in "sin" that might actually be accepted by a court. The theology seems pretty tortured to me, and it looks more like a desire to impose their beliefs on their employees than a desire to avoid displeasing God themselves. Perhaps it's not for a court to decide, but simply being asked to state their religious objections in writing is not nearly enough of an imposition on someone's religious beliefs to justify avoiding complying with the law under any reasoning.
"For years, they’ve had to divert attention from their core mission because the government wants them to provide birth control to their employees."
That is not correct. They objected to having to fill out a one page form claiming a religious exemption from the requirement. And they weren't diverted in the slightest, all the legal work was done for them, simply using their name to elicit sympathy. I'm very familiar with them in Baltimore because they cared for my mother-in-law, and held a lovely service for her after she died. They are wonderful people.
I will note that this is a problem that could be fixed by universal single payer health care. That way, the nuns are no longer furnishing birth control to their employees, so the issue goes away.
For that matter, caring for the elderly would be solved if the government was given a monopoly on it. The nuns wouldn't have to bother.
Margrave, some of us understand the concept of line drawing. The fact that the government regulates, or even assumes a monopoly, in some area does not require it to do so in any other area. There may be different policy considerations involved, different potential consequences to weigh, different resources available. Your foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind.
A universal health care system is not a monopoly, there is room for private and charitable health care institutions.
Not as the Democrats have proposed it.
Brett, have you actually read the Democrat's proposals (plural) for single payer health care? Because I have, and you're completely full of shit.
Pro-insurance propaganda.
Conyers' H. R. 676 (This had more than half of the Democratic caucus as co-sponsors.)
Made the provision of healthcare outside the government's system illegal except for cosmetic procedures. Anything deemed medically necessary the government had a monopoly on.
No wonder it didn't go anywhere.
Right, and that's the only proposal any Democrat put forth.
Remember that you are the one that described baking a cake for a wedding as "validating" their "choice" of romantic partner. I am pointing out that the relationship between seller and buyer is rarely considered that involved. In all of these cases, the seller/buyer or employer/employee relationship is amplified beyond what it would normally be because of the level of disapproval that the seller or employer has for the behavior at issue.
If being gay wasn't something that people had historically experienced a great deal of discrimination for being, with there still being some prejudice and discrimination today, then there wouldn't be a need for that to be included in anti-discrimination laws. Not all people that experience a business or employer judging them and treating them negatively for no good reason need the government to protect them from that unreasonable behavior. But some do.
That escalated quickly…now you’d force an order of nuns to furnish birth-control to their employees.
And you really should understand the issue at stake in the Little Sisters case better. The federal agency was offering an accommodation for their religious objections to providing health insurance that included birth control to their employees. They just needed to state their objections in writing (a form, I believe). Then, the employee would give that to the insurance company and it would provide the coverage as a separate rider at no cost to the employer. That wasn't good enough for the nuns, though. They still felt that they would be "complicit in sin" because the employee would still get insurance coverage of birth control because the nuns employed them. Filling out the form would trigger the employee's access, so it was still their right to avoid that, they argued.
Why they wouldn't be complicit if the employee used their wages to buy birth control pills, I still think was only because they could rationalize that as being outside their control. But how an employee uses their health insurance isn't something that I think it is reasonable for an employer to control anyway. Beyond consideration of minimizing costs, at least. Therefore, in my view, the Litter Sisters definitely crossed the line from being concerned about their own involvement and into the territory of wanting to control their employees' behavior outside of work. And the government doesn't need to provide an exemption to a generally applicable law because an employer wants to impose their religious morality on their employees outside of work.
You seem to start from the assumption that there should be a law (or regulation, same thing, right?) requiring businesses to assist at gay weddings or to get birth control for their employees. Only then will you discuss who should have the privilege of being exempt from such laws or regulations. But what justifies these laws and regulations in the first place?
Compulsory gay cakes are promoted in the name of “civil rights;” free contraception is promoted in the name of “health care.” Thus, same-sex couples seeking validation of their relationship through a formal ceremony can tap into the emotional reserves of the march in Selma in order to conscript small businesses into doing their bidding. And people who want to engage in recreational sex can put their demands for public-policy support on the same level as people who need care for cancer, leukemia, etc.
I’m not sure why a Christian or Muslim baker should be punished because crooked cops and Mafiosi in New York used to practice extortion against gay people. Nor am I sure why nuns dedicated to giving help and dignity to our parents in their last years should be punished because they don’t want to treat recreational sex as a form of medical treatment.
What justifies the law with regard to birth control is that the government determined that it was important for the health of a huge amount of citizens that they have access to birth control. It quite often has nothing to do with recreational sex. As for the Little Sisters of the Poor, they weren't being punished at all, or forced to provide birth control to anyone. All they had to do was claim a religious exemption in writing.
The Little Sisters claimed that signing the form triggered the providing of birth control and made them complicit in sin. It's not for secular courts to question the logic of their claim. However, the Little Sisters' employees were never going to get birth control even if they had lost on RFRA because the Sisters were self insured and used a third-party provider that was statutorily exempt from the requirement as a "church plan" under ERISA.
"It quite often has nothing to do with recreational sex."
Then why is the mandate broad enough to cover recreational sex?
It doesn't. The legal questions around same-sex marriage and the legal questions around non-discrimination in public accommodation law are separate.
Which is why Elane Photography got sued for refusing service to a same-sex couple in 2006, almost a decade before New Mexico got legal same-sex marriage, and also why despite Texas having same-sex marriage for coming-up-on-a-decade now there still/i> haven't been similar cases under Texas state law.
This isn't complicated, you just find political points to be scored in obfuscating it.
The bill under discussion “Confirms that non–profit religious organizations will not be required to provide any services, facilities, or goods for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage.” The terminology leaves for-profit businesses and secular organizations at the mercy of protracted RFRA litigation.
If the bill had nothing to do with "public accommodation law," why have a partial (and inadequate) exemption dealing with...public accommodation law?
To reassure people who think otherwise.
God is not mocked. Israel was conquered many times for turning their back on YHWH. America is next.
Ler your god kill his own political enemies. He doesn't need your decidedly finite help.
JasonT20's comment above comes closest (at least in this thread) to expressing a desire to "kill [one's] political enemies." Scary stuff...
No. It doesn't. There's a guy on here who openly longs for the chance to kill liberals. There's a guy down below hoping for a civil war. JasonT20's comment does nothing even remotely similar.
Why does my belief that we should call out and confront bigotry indicate any desire to "kill [one's] political enemies?" I was clearly talking about confronting it with speech, not violence, for fuck's sake. If you find that to be "scary stuff," then maybe it is because you don't even want people speaking against your beliefs.
Codifying the right to abortion access hardest hit.
This is the Fugitive Slave Act of the new millennium and will provoke a second civil war.
Sadly, I do think one is coming. Look at the red/blue map on a county by county basis and look at how divided we are.
And how did the civil war go for the side hell bent on continued oppression of others?
They would have won had the war been fought in 1820, which it almost was.
And, arguably, the South won if you extend it out to 1877 if not 1890 -- or Woodrow Wilson who imposed their segregation on the North.
The south wouldn’t have won that war ever. Too big a mismatch in men and material.
And you’re just another internet tough guy talking civil war, when we all know if there actually was a real one you’d hide under the bed babbling like a baby.
Allowing liberty for people you don’t even know bothers you to the point that you’re hoping for violence? What a drama queen you are. You’re as bad as the commies and the progs.
Who won the civil war that was caused by the Obergefell decision? I must have slept through it.
Dr Ed....this is very dangerous talk. There are no winners in a civil war. I am certain that union and confederate veterans would say exactly that: there are no winners in a civil war.
Civil wars don't happen when people expect to win. They happen when people think that losing has become unavoidable, and just want to lose less.
Rule one of VC: Never agree with Dr. Ed.
There won't be a civil war over gay rights or anything else in our lifetimes, a trucker's strike won't paralyze the US, and Dr. Ed's got no insights into 'Joe Six-Pack.'
The frustrated coward set are not prophets, they're just frustrated and wish someone else would be violent on their behalf.
I wouldn't rule out that trucker strike, though with this administration we're more likely to be paralyzed by an artificially induced shortage of diesel fuel.
We have recent history to show that Ed's dumbass hopes are for naught.
Come to think of it, the Freedom Convoy becoming a thing and flaming out does coincide with Ed's absence from this commentariat...
If two guys are allowed to marry, I’m not sure how anyone else loses.
This is one of those things that I can’t really understand why anyone cares enough to oppose. The only reason I can think of is an unhealthy dislike of gays. What other reason is there?
I had two objections:
1) Procedure. I object to the courts ramming something like this down the public's throat, over massive democratic opposition, (SSM lost even in California!) and without adequate constitutional basis.
It was just a judicial fad, judges realized they didn't have to care what anybody else thought, nobody could stop them.
2) It was obvious that it wouldn't stop at allowing, given the tenor of modern anti-discrimination law. They WOULD mandate baking that cake, and THAT I found objectionable.
The thing you're complaining about now fixes your procedural objection.
And I don't know how to fix the problem with cakes. It's shitty of the baker to care that much and it's shitty of the people that intentionally hassle him once they find out he does. I mean, if I found out that somebody didn't approve of my lifestyle I'd tend to just stay away from the asshole.
The mandate for SSM being legal was obtained by bad procedure, and backstopped by bad procedure, but I think it's quite possible that the current resignation will eventually become actual democratic approval. In fact, I think it would have happened a hell of a lot faster if they could have brought themselves to lay off the bakers and wedding photographers.
My only complaint about the present bill, such as it is, was to point out that the concessions the Republican members of this group got were largely meaningless. Aside from that, it's not an utterly horrible bill.
"It’s shitty of the baker to care that much and it’s shitty of the people that intentionally hassle him once they find out he does."
And it's one guy shittly exercising his rights, and the other guy shittly violating them. One guy who wants to be left alone, and another who won't leave him alone, and I can't say those are equivalently shitty, because they're not.
Dude, there are literally hundreds of non-discrimination cases every year that don't involve gay folk at all.
That you don't care at all about those, and instead obsess over the half-dozen over the last decade that involve gay folk? Shows that you don't care about "freedom", you're just a gay-hating asshole.
Also temporally confused, seeing as you still blame non-discrimination laws from back in the 80s on a SCOTUS decision that wouldn't happen for three decades.
Exactly. Which is why it's easy to walk away with the impression that any supposed "problem with cakes" is manufactured for the sake of litigation/harassment.
Which is not exactly a new story. Hell, Griswold itself arose from an exceptionally contrived test case. Connecticut's 18-frickin-79 law (championed by one P.T. Barnum -- can't make this stuff up) wasn't being enforced, and only was finally enforced in direct response to activists that finally figured out how to scream loudly and obnoxiously enough that they should have the constitutional right to do what people were already freely doing and society as a whole had accepted.
The anti discrimination laws in question preceded Obergefell, so this is at best a wrong argument, and at worst a bad faith one.
I think there is a difference between predicting a civil war and wanting one. I too think there are certain divisions in society that are insurmountable and that an eventual split is more likely than not. That doesn't mean I want that in the same way I expect most divorced people will say they had wished things worked out but that it just became untenable.
Most of us out here in the normie world don’t put much stock in the bleating of the extremes and are getting along just fine despite any difference of opinion we may have on things.
And find talk of a civil war to be absurd. The side that tries to start one will be so toxic as to be unelectable for a century due to the degree to which they alienated the independents. That kind of thing has happened before in our history.
Well I admit to being a bit of a Cassandra in that regard.
If you ask Jack Phillips, I bet he'll tell you he feels pretty oppressed...
How is Jack Phillips oppressed? He never baked the damn cake.
They never left him alone, though. The instant he won, he was in court again. And again. And again. They never left off trying to force him to bake cakes. They're trying to force him to even now.
He was being oppressed. That's why he won. Go ahead and read the Supreme Court opinion, it explains why. Also note who authored it.
Hint: it's the same guy who wrote Obergfell
I'll believe that you believe this when you whine about the "oppression" of every other buisness that gets slapped down for unlawful discrimination when gay folk aren't involved.
But predictably, you lot only care when there's a queer person around. If not, suddenly you can't see this "oppression".
?
I've often commented here about my opposition to the portions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that make it illegal for private business owners to discriminate. No "queer persons" were involved.
I’ve often commented here about my opposition to the portions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that make it illegal for private business owners to discriminate.
Let's clarify this, then. In the South, discrimination wasn't just the choice of businesses, it was the law, correct? But if it hadn't been, had it only been the choices of business owners, would you say that there should have been no laws to prevent that? If it just so happened that every (white) owner of diners in a town refused to serve Black customers, the law shouldn't do anything about that, I take it. If it just so happened that no one that owned property in commercial districts would sell to a Black person or even a white person, if they were going to open a diner that would serve Black people, that shouldn't change anything, I take it.
It can be easy to stand on a principle that businesses and other organizations should be free to associate or not as they choose, as long as those that would discriminate unjustly are few and far between. People that are targeted by bigots would still have plenty of other options. The reason for civil rights legislation prohibiting discrimination was that it wasn't actually like that. It was systematic in targeting certain minority groups and was quite effective at limiting their ability to gain employment, become educated, own and operate businesses of their own, and otherwise build wealth and status in society.
Even if it was true that few would discriminate in the same way now as in the past against people of minority racial or ethnic groups, religions, gender, sexual orientation, etc., ending anti-discrimination laws would still send a message that discrimination is acceptable. What if bigots started taking that as a sign that they could target a minority group in a local community to ostracize them? How many businesses and the like would it take denying them services, jobs, housing, and so on before it would be a enough of a problem to justify government action again? Or do you just think that discrimination at scale like that does not violate individual rights?
Look at the red/blue map on a county by county basis and look at how divided we are.
Land doesn't vote. And a county can be 'blue' or 'red' with a bare majority, so that doesn't really tell you what you think it does.
Here are some alternate maps of the 2016 election that allow you to view things differently.
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MinimalGallery/index.html?appid=b3d1fe0e8814480993ff5ad8d0c62c32
Yeah, land doesn't vote. That's why Communist China is entitled to take over the entire region, regardless of what the people in other countries think: They've got the people, and land doesn't vote.
It really is problematic when you rule over the people "here" on the basis of having votes over "there".
It's a mite more demonstrably problematic when small numbers of people 'here' can rule over large numbers of people 'there.' Bit like Communist China.
I don't know that is more problematic.
It took 150 years for the power hungry to grow national power out of all recognition. Now it's just assumed propriety, the only variable is who controls it.
In short, a dictator's power grab has won that battle.
You really should think more about this, and perhaps even look at some of those maps. When 60% of voters in a county chose the party that lost the whole state, then yeah. They are being 'ruled' by people that live elsewhere. Guess what, though. That would happen at a smaller scale, too. 40% of that county's voters might have wanted different people to be their county supervisors, but they have to be 'ruled' by people in other neighborhoods or maybe just down the street.
What really seems to be bothering you is when your side loses, you don't like being 'ruled' by the preferences of the majority. If your side wins, though, do you really feel bad about 'ruling' those that voted the other way?
I'm very in favor of subsidarity, to the point where I think that as much as is possible ought to be devolved to the point of individual choice. So I apply this principle all the way down.
But you have to distinguish between decisions to coerce, and decisions to refrain from, or not permit, coercion. (Admittedly, this line can get fuzzy when it comes to coercing people into not killing/mutilating other people.)
If we had simply been talking about "permitting" SSM, it wouldn't have been any big deal. Likewise with polygamy, though that has really nasty social implications. The problem was always that it was never going to stop at "permitting", no victory for the left is complete until they can force the losers to be complicit. You have to bake the cake, take the wedding photo, use the pronoun, it goes on and on. You don't have to just let the guy wear a female bathing suit in the privacy of his own pool, you have to let him enter the women's swimming competition.
Because of this, people end up fighting these battles that otherwise they'd hardly care about, because they know that the other side, if they win, won't just go off and do their own thing, they'll absolutely insist, with the force of law, that you be involved.
It's as if the gun rights movement couldn't settle for being allowed to own and carry guns, and insisted that stores that didn't want to had to sell ammo, that amusement parks had to include rifle ranges.
It's that insistence on not just leaving it at being permitted, that makes all these culture wars so ugly.
Funny how you can pull that straw man right out of your hat.
Catholics haven't been forced to marry non-Catholics EVER yet by your logic they would've been coerced by now easily.
But Catholic adoption services have been sanctioned for not offering adoption to SS couples. So it's not so far out of the question.
But Catholic adoption services have been sanctioned for not offering adoption to SS couples. So it’s not so far out of the question.
They were only sanctioned if they are contracting with the government to provide those services, as far as I can tell. Really, the issue is whether their religious objections can override the requirement that the government places on itself to not discriminate against same sex couples. To me, that issue should be resolved simply: if the government cannot discriminate as it provides particular services, then no one it contracts to provide those services can either, with no exceptions. To do otherwise is to give government a loophole to violate people's rights by contracting the violations out to private entities.
These were services that they'd been providing long before the government decided to do them. They should be kicked out of providing them if they didn't do them exactly the way the government insisted?
And all they did with the same sex couples was refer them to another agency.
These were services that they’d been providing long before the government decided to do them.
Then they can continue to do so unaffiliated with the government. Was that so hard?
And all they did with the same sex couples was refer them to another agency.
And again, if they weren't providing those services under contract or in partnership with the government, then that would be perfectly fine.
The article very plainly says that the law is only binding on governments. Private entities are not impacted.
Did nobody read the bleeping article?
Again: none of that has anything to do with Obergefell, or legalized same sex marriage.
Yeah, land doesn’t vote. That’s why Communist China is entitled to take over the entire region, regardless of what the people in other countries think: They’ve got the people, and land doesn’t vote.
You also just missed the point of where that saying is coming from. "Land doesn't vote" was a response to maps that show most of the U.S. as red, with little specs of blue here and there. Those maps didn't take into account the margins in each county, nor the population of each county.
China, on the other hand, does have a huge number of people. But, the difference is that China is a sovereign nation that only has any right to rule itself, and no right to rule people in other nations. (And authoritarian regimes violate the natural rights of their own people on top of that.)
All U.S. citizens have the same power to govern themselves regardless of where they live. (Well, they should, but the small population states insisted on a permanent equal representation in the Senate or they might not have agreed to the Constitution at all.) People vote, not counties, not states, and not parties. We often forget that, but we shouldn't.
So, the first was to overthrow the tyranny of foreign rulers, the second was to end slavery and protect the Union, the third will be because two guys or two women can get married. That's just sad, even as a fantasy.
The American Civil War was driven by money. Slave holders stood to lose money if they were forced to give up the labor of enslaved people. Where is the money here?
That's overly simplistic. They were unwilling to give up slave labor even if they were compensated for it. It was as much about keeping blacks down as it was about money.
yeah, that looks pretty divided.
Now look at a similar map from 1864. Notice the big difference?
In 1864, they really were "red state/blue state". Now? It's red county/blue county. Before Texas goes to war with New York over letting gay people marry, it's going to have to go to war with the other 45% of Texas. That's not something they had to deal with in 1864.
“In any event, this provision is of limited significance, because it is highly unlikely that any state will in fact legalize polygamy anytime soon.”
LOL! That’s so funny, you probably SHOULD quit your day job. You’d have said that of SSM at one time.
Anyway, as Ken Arromdee says up-thread, legalization of SSM was imposed on the pretext that it was mandated by the Constitution, so nothing in any statute (Or even state constitutional amendment!) was allowed to stand it its way.
When they get around to polygamy the same will be true. It will be imposed on the basis of the Constitution, and no statute or amount of democratic opposition will be allowed to matter.
Anyway, gonna be a rip-roaring lame duck session, if they led with this right out of the starting gate.
This bill specifically precludes polygamy, but go ahead and hyperventilate over freedom for other people if it helps you feel better.
Yes, it specifically precludes polygamy, and I specifically addressed that.
Precluding polygamy by statute won't mean squat, any more the precluding SSM by statute, or state constitution, did. It was an empty gesture. And everyone involved knew that.
This doesn't "preclude" polygamy at all.
And yes, if the constitution was interpreted to protect polygamous marriage, then this statute would be irrelevant either way, so what's the issue?
"Makes clear that the bill does not require or authorize the federal government to recognize polygamous marriages."
The issue is that this supposed concession is meaningless.
No. Utah recognizes polygamous marriages in 2024. Without that provision in the RMA, the federal government could then be required to accept those marriages. With this provision, the federal government is not required to do so. What's so hard to understand about that?
Oddly, RMA explicitly stated a state need only recognize a valid marriage from another state involving two people. Was it an oversight that the same language was excluded from the regulation governing federal recognition?
“The original RMA would have required the federal government to recognize polygamous marriages. The amendment in today’s agreement would prevent that”.
Clearly you’re interpreting that passage differently than I am.
Again, what would you care if polygamy was allowed between consenting adults anyhow?
Another faux libertarian here.
If two people of the same gender wed in one state (A) and then go reside in another state (B), would state B necessarily have to refer to them as “married” in addition to recognizing their substantive rights as a wedded couple? I am just addressing the vocabulary issue here, as opposed to substantive rights. Legal equality between blacks and whites is a great thing, but it has never required states to call black people “white” or vice versa, as a mandatory vocabulary regulation. By the same token, I do not agree that a state should have to call a same-sex couple “married” when there are many other non-derogatory words available. This is only a matter of vocabulary, not a matter of substantive rights, but it is still important. By insisting that every couple be described by every state in the same way (“married”), the implication seems to be that there is no difference between having a mother and father, versus having two parents of the same gender. This is a wrong message for the federal government to be sending, in my opinion, and not just sending but imposing on the states. It has nothing to do with substantive rights, but much to do with federal overreach and federal control over speech. I do not think any state should be forced to agree that traditional marriage is verbally indistinguishable from other types of marriage, so that having a mom and dad must be considered no different from not having a mom and dad.
No, it required states to call black people "people", and sometimes "citizens".
Bit weak, all things considered, but it does illustrate that it's popular across both sides.
LOL.
But of course the GOP does have this dead weight of a base dragging it backwards...
Believe me, there are a lot of Republicans in the party leadership that feel the same way about their voting base as you do. It's just that they haven't figured out any way to successfully do politics without having a voter base.
They may have to. We just had midterms that the GOP should have been able to win on the economy, but didn't, because the voters mostly felt that Trumpism is a bigger threat. When the GOP can't win a national election with our current economic troubles because the voters think Trump is a bigger threat, the GOP leadership had best figure out a way to get rid of him if they wish to remain viable as a party.
I don't think that's what happened. I think several other factors were in play.
1) The changes to voting procedure pushed through on the basis of Covid continue to work very heavily in the Democrats' favor. Republicans actually did pretty good everywhere people largely were voting in person on election day. The GOP has yet to adapt to election "day" lasting a month in some places.
2) A great many of the losing candidates were "Trumpy", sure, but the real issue is that they were openly advocating a change of leadership in the GOP caucus, replacement of McConnell.
McConnell, unsurprisingly, didn't want that, and had a lot of say over how GOP resources were distributed, and actions in the Senate that influenced election outcomes.
I think the GOP establishment got what they wanted: The red wave that was going to wash THEM out to sea got thwarted, and if the cost was the GOP being in the minority? They're fine with leading the minority in futile opposition, it's actually their preferred role.
Didn't McConnell spend yugely on the candidates, including Trumpy ones, while Trump witheld a yuge war-chest?
"Didn’t McConnell spend yugely on the candidates, including Trumpy ones,"
Half right, anyway.
Above average for you, not bad.
I don't think that really was the issue. Trump's overall economic message was and remains very popular. The greater issue was idiots like Lindsey Graham who came out just before the election and instead of talking about how excited they were to begin rebuilding the economy he instead talked about a nationwide abortion ban. He flushed all that political capital right down the toilet. It's like they learned nothing from Kansas.
I can't tell that Trump has any message anymore beyond "they cheated" and "if you want to be elected as a Republican you'd better kiss my ring".
I'm glad you added that "anymore"; He certain HAD a message at one time, but I think your description of today's Trump is spot on.
I think that message was that he'd created more jobs than any other president in history, which wasn't true then, and is even less true now. Also, 'build a wall' which turned into a giant fraud scam and also fell down. 'Ban all Muslims,' which went down to 'ban some Muslims' and then to 'put in travel restrictions on the same countries Obama had restrictions on.' There's no denying the guy had messages.
For most of his term there was a strong message and policy of economic populism and that resonated. Since 2020 it's a whole different matter.
It's what I've been saying since the runup to 2016. It's about the message and policies, not the personality who delivers them.
Politicians come and go, it's the principals that endure and I think minimizing the outsourcing of labor and manufacturing to China and securing the border and becoming more selective as to who we admit is a winning message, but the religious nuts and moral crusaders just can't help themselves.
The guy was 70 when he was elected, he's 76 now. People can change a lot in 6 years when they're in their 70's, and hardly ever for the better. You think he's bad now, wait until 2024; I predict his stock with Republicans is going to decline as rapidly as I suspect he's declining.
Trump was always about himself, mostly, but had the capacity to understand that he couldn't be just about himself if he wanted to be a success in politics. I think he's lost that, partly out of the outrage of losing to Biden, and he's JUST about himself now.
That's not a winning look.
The huge risk for the Republicans is that Trump doesn't get the GOP nomination, launches a third party run, and takes 20% of Republican voters with him.
I doubt very much that happens, because it would require him to make that third party run AFTER losing the nomination. At that point it's too late to get on the ballot as a third party or independent candidate, and an increasing number of states don't even permit write ins anymore.
And I doubt he'll admit he can't win the nomination until he's tried and failed.
What I expect is going to happen is that he's going to increasingly alienate his support base within the Republican party, because they absolutely are NOT the "cult of personality" his enemies claimed. And by 2024 he'll be an also-run. If he doesn't refrain from running to spare himself the embarrassment of losing.
"launches a third party run"
LOL You think he has the discipline to do that? Or wants to spend the money?
If he thinks it might keep him out of jail, who knows?
"The darkies are coming to take your jobs and rape your women" isn't really an "economic message," per se.
His message is immigrants and global trade are taking your jobs, and that is popular among many blue-collar workers.
"remain viable as a party."
GOP is going to have the House majority, at about the same number as the current Dem majority. More people voted for GOP house candidates. 49% at least of Senators, slight governor majority, lots of state legislatures.
Plenty viable.
Bob, the point is that Trump has now lost the GOP three elections in a row: loss of the House in 2018, loss of both houses and the White House in 2020, and now the mid terms. I know he says all those elections were stolen but nobody except his idiot base believes him.
In a sane, rational world, any party leader who lost three elections in a row would be out the door.
Obama lost 2 of his last 3. He still campaigns for Dems.
Your concern over about the identity of the GOP leader is noted though.
Dunno Krycheck - the GOP won the popular House vote by about 5%.
I'm grateful for the result, and I don't think the already raggedy GOP wedge issues of groomers, lying about crime stats, and inflation have 2 years of sustain in them.
And the Dem's messaging about the GOP's anti-democracy push absolutely performed better than I thought.
And the GOP locally shot itself in the foot a bunch of times, and seems poised to do so even more in 2024, or tear itself apart trying to resist the temptation.
But looking at those numbers, lets not pretend Dems are home free.
I think it was mostly about the GOP leadership not wanting a lot of those candidates to win, and potentially replace them as the leadership. So they took a dive. It's actually a pretty routine thing in GOP politics, the party taking the loss when challengers they don't like win the primary. The party establishment are bad losers that way.
Brett, I doubt this. For Mitch McConnell, having control of the Senate is far more important than having to defend his leadership post, which he almost certainly would have successfully done.
LOL! Yeah, sure it is. A lot of those Senate candidates were openly running on replacing him.
I think it was mostly about the GOP leadership not wanting a lot of those candidates to win.
Always secret agendas with you. The GOP spent a record amount across the board.
Among the costs was to support some of the more looney Peter Thiel candidates and others, but in the end triage needs to be done. It's not an anti-conservative push to note that certain people proved too insane to be viable.
No sane, moderately informed US citizen would want Herschel Walker to be a US Senator.
“lying about crime stats”
Keep telling yourself that.
“The uncertainty largely stems from the fact that 2021’s data was more incomplete than any in recent memory. Comprehensive FBI data depends on law enforcement agencies’ (there are about 18,000 in the U.S.) voluntary submissions. This year about 7,000 police agencies, covering about 35% of the U.S. population, were missing.
… many agencies did not switch in time to submit data, including the New York City Police Department and Los Angeles Police Department — the nation’s two largest. Some entire states, including California and Florida, sent virtually no data. ” The Problem With The FBI’s Missing Crime Data, The Marshall Project 10.08.2022
[still unable to post links]
You're admitting the data is incomplete, and the crime demagoguery was lies?
FBI data is incomplete, plenty of other evidence. Sarcasto cited to Kevin Drum last week for evidence crime was not up, Drum uses FBI stats.
Murder rates went up or stayed high, but no other violent did, fails the smell test.
Murder is, notoriously, the hardest to under-count crime, 'cause of the body.
'Went up' could mean three or four more than last year.
Nah. That's early data. Once all the votes are in, it's going to be closer to 1%.
Oh? What data are you looking at? Are you perhaps mistaking a single state or race for the sum of all House elections?
Because at this time, looking at Fox reported results of 11/16, with only a few races incomplete (total vote counted is over 96% nationally), the Republican candidates totaled roughly 5% more votes than the Democrat candidates.
Are you suggesting that all the remaining votes in the entire country are for Democrats, plus some that were already counted? Or is your data source counting something else? Enquiring minds want to know.
...without having a voter based cultishly devoted to Trump, I think you mean, and yes, it's a serious problem for them.
No, it demonstrates that a handful of Republican Senators are on the other side.
"The Senate negotiators are Democrats Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin and Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, and Republicans Susan Collins of Maine, Rob Portman of Ohio and Thom Tillis of North Carolina."
Collins, not up for reelection until 2026, and a routine participant in this sort of "bipartisan" exercise.
Tillis, also not up for reelection until 2026. Until this year you'd have said he was a conservative, but he apparently has given up on that. Probably will be retiring from the Senate in 2026.
Portman didn't bother running for releection this year, he's a lame duck.
Defining conservative as requiring support for big government sex police is...a choice.
Don't you call yourself a libertarian?
Actually, he's flipped on multiple issues over the last year. Pretty much started after he won reelection in 2020, I suspect he's not anticipating reelection in 2026, so he doesn't really care anymore what the people who elected him think. You never really know what a politician genuinely believes until they decide to retire.
But, what's my definition of "conservative" got to do with whether I'm a libertarian? That's... strange. Irrelevant.
As I've said, this whole matter would be far less contentious if it weren't for the fact that recognition of SSM predictably brought with it a lot of coercive baggage, and was accomplished in a very dubious manner, basically shoved down the country's collective throat by the judiciary in the face of massive popular opposition.
Of course, by the time the Supreme court ruled in Obergefel, it was a done deal. All the Court was doing was endorsing the lower courts' victories.
The way it was accomplished was procedurally illegitimate. But if it weren't for the "bake the cake!" aspect, I'd hardly be able to work up any outrage anyway.
A libertarian with a non-libertarian purity test for conservatives seems off to me!
Coercive baggage? Freedom of choice attained in a dubious way (i.e. via courts finding a right that's proof against government interference?)
This procedural technicality handwaving is not fooling anyone.
Buckle on that puritan hat with pride, Brett!
Why would a "purity test" for conservatives be libertarian, any more than a purity test for progressives would be?
I'm observing what "conservative" means in practice, I certainly don't agree with all of conservatism, though I'm certainly more of a conservative than a "progressive". Are you some kind of prescriptionist, demanding that "conservatism" be defined in terms you like?
Why would a libertarian be purity testing conservatives to be sufficiently morally scolding?
Dude, take off the mask.
Look, you may let your politics color your perception of reality, I try to avoid that, hopefully more successfully than you.
I observed that this wasn't actually a display of genuine bipartisanship, that the people in this group were lame ducks and outliers. That doesn't require me to approve of everything they're outliers FROM. It remains true as an observation.
This bill probably is not meaningfully bipartisan.
Look at you, Brett.
You have issues with gay marriage being legal because of the procedure by which it was accomplished.
You have issues with this way of addressing the procedure because of the purity of the Republicans that support it.
Throughout it all, you claim to be a libertarian, not a social conservative.
At some point, the fig leaf falls off.
“Purity”? I’m pointing out that the Republican members of this group are not remotely representative of the Republican caucus. So the fact that they agreed to this bill doesn’t imply that they’re going to get enough Republican votes to clear a cloture vote.
If the negotiators had been more typical Republicans, that might have been a reasonable inference. Not for these members.
I'm a socially conservative libertarian. That IS a thing, I assure you. "Socially conservative" is ends, "libertarian" is about means.
Actually, it's even dumber than that. He's using an imagined test for conservatism as a purity test for Republicans. He's claiming that someone isn't a real Republican unless they adhere to his personal idea of what conservatism should be.
I can't help but wonder if the 2022 midterm election helped this along. The Republicans took a shellacking on the abortion question. I wonder if Republicans want to move gay marriage off the table before it weighs them down. To remove the chance of another Dobbs type decision.
That's possible, but keep in mind this wasn't like the actually bipartisan cave in on gun control McConnell engineered earlier this year. It was just three Republican Senators, one of them a lame duck, another likely to lose his primary when he's up for reelection again. It hardly demonstrates some kind of trend.
I personally think the term "bipartisan" should be reserved for votes where the numbers are roughly comparable on both sides, not these votes where it's everybody on one side, and a few from the other.
I agree with you on that.
I also agree with Brett on bipartisan and would set the bar at getting at least 10% of the opposition party.
I'd go with "roughly equal", not "90% opposed by one party". But this didn't meet even your definition.
Brett, you’re confusing the number of negotiators with the number who will vote to pass. Clearly if they’re going to pass the senate at least seven additional republicans have committed to voting yes. You have no idea how many will ultimately do so.
That's right, I don't. I'm simply observing that it's only 3 Republicans, one a lame duck, at this point. Who knows, maybe this thing will pass overwhelmingly. Or maybe it will never survive a cloture vote.
We don't know, but I do observe that the Republican members of this group are not terribly representative of the Republican caucus.
It got 12 GOP votes, or roughly ¼ of the GOP caucus. Sounds pretty bipartisan.
Convenient definition for you, isn't it? But you're confused. This is the negotiating group, not the vote. This is going to take at least 10 Republican senators, not "a few," in order to meet the 60 vote de facto threshold. (And 10 = 20%.)
It was just three Republican Senators,
It was three who put it together, but it seems that there are enough votes to override a filibuster, so at least ten Republicans are on board.
It's claimed there are enough votes to override a filibuster, but no filibuster has been overridden yet. So far it's just three Republicans, one of them a lame duck.
They don't claim there's enough when there isn't, Brett. I mean, every so often one loses a vote one thought one had, so maybe 59 instead of 60 could happen on occasion. But they don't say they have enough votes if they only have 3.
I doubt it. They didn’t cobble together something 60 senators would vote for in less than a week.
The senate has had this since July.
Has or will any Senator actually read this bill before voting on it?
'member when Yoda stuck out his hand and lifted the starfighter out of the swamp and moved it to the land?
I think they will all read this very short bill.
Yeah, pretty short. Not terribly objectionable, from my perspective anyway.
I wonder if the sponsors are aware that marriage is legal in MA at the age of 12 with parental consent? If you're a girl, anyway, boys have to be 14.
And in some states you can marry at literally ANY age if a judge agrees to it.
By the terms of this bill, a foreign marriage must be respected if it would have been legal under the laws of ANY state whatsoever. Mauritius may become the new Reno...
The bill prohibits the refusal of a state to recognize a valid marriage only on the basis of sex, race, ethnicity and national origin. As I read it, a state can still refuse to recognize a valid marriage in another state on the basis of age (although it appears the federal government is required to recognize all such marriages).
The bill prohibits refusing to recognize any marriage which was approved of by any state, or if foreign, would have been legal under the laws of any state.
That's Section 4, which only applies to federal recognition. Section 3 applies to the states and is limited to sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin.
I wonder if you are aware that you are wrong?
https://www.tahirih.org/news/massachusetts-becomes-the-7th-state-to-end-child-marriage/
The bill also protects "Loving v. Virginia" which wasn't really in danger anyway.
They said the same about Roe.
Given how even Clarence Thomas was up for visiting that decision again, I wouldn't bet on it being out of consideration.
"They said the same about Roe."
Not as I recall.
All Thomas wants to revisit about Loving is the basis for the ruling. He's a P&I guy, and legitimately so.
I think you mean “only” where you typed “even”.
How about an AOC/MTG/Kristen Semen-a 3-way??? I'd pay to watch.
Frank "All for S&M Marriage. Let the Homos be miserable too!
When conservatives try to operate a legal blog, the results are roughly as pathetic as when conservatives try to operate a research and teaching institution.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know how far and how long.
What's it like to have monomania?
Lots of 'this law does nothing! And how dare it!'
I appreciate these articles. Makes the pretend libertarians really stand out.
Do any of the Conspirators possess the character or courage to observe the comments and ask 'why do we attract so many ignorant, downscale bigots?'
I sense Prof. Kerr might have . . . which may be why he has all but disappeared from the flaming clustermuck.
Why this blog attracts you is an open question, yes. Why you're here while pretending you were banned is a better question.
Funny, but 'marriage' and it's analogous words don't appear in my copy of the US Constitution.
Following the rational decision in Dobbs, why doesn't the US Government stay the hell out of it?
This was the concern. While abortion could be arguably tied to life of the baby as a separate concern, there is no such similarity in marriage.
So no need to fear for marriage rights, or contraceptive rights, and so on!
They lied.
How the federal government and other states treat a valid marriage in one state is well within the appropriate powers of the federal government.
"In order to form a more perfect union".
Nice!
Some GOP politicians are just Democrats but 10 years late.
I don't get it. Someone else of the right on here that appears to abhor freedom when it involves something they don't like personally.
Guess what? Freedom is messy. All of those people out there doing things that you wouldn't do and that you don't think they should be doing.
But you ignore it and live and let live so that you can have your freedom too.
Freedom is not license to do anything and everything. Freedom without limits is just anarchy and will destroy a nation in due course.
Allowing two people who want to get married to do so is anarchy? Seriously?
You willing to apply that standard to yourself, champ?
So unlimited freedom to own guns will end in anarchy? Sounds plausible...
Texas has filed a bill that would make "consenting to gender affirming care" child abuse with prison sentences for parents.
What freedom we have!
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB00672I.pdf#navpanes=0
p. 4
As it should--the mutilation of a child is a horrible thing . . .
Huh. You'd think they would talk about that, and not 'gender affirming care' then.
By this language, it seems more like performatively cruel culture war bullshit!
They did. You can look through that entire bill in vain for any reference to "gender affirming care".
I suppose you think that the laws the left calls "Don't say Gay" bills actually prohibit saying "gay", too...
You were right; I was wrong. Egg on my face.
Still says quite a bit about how quickly freedom is constrained when it runs afoul of the latest culture war battlefield.
Kudos for admitting it, I really mean that.
Look, the research shows that gender dysphoria normally resolves by the end of puberty, it’s something almost everybody ages out of. That being the case, a treatment would have to be REALLY safe to justify.
For a while they thought that puberty blockers were that safe, though God knows why; They had little experience using those drugs on normal prepubescent children to justify that belief. But, yeah, they’d actually convinced themselves that all these drugs would do is put puberty on ‘pause’, and it would resume when they were discontinued, so they could give somebody time to see if the dysphoria resolved. In fact, they’re still lying that that’s the case…
Never mind that the puberty they were trying to put on hold was WHAT was resolving the dysphoria…
Well, turned out they were wrong, puberty blockers are actually pretty dangerous, with life long consequences. You’ve only got a limited window to go through it successfully, and if you miss that window, you’ll never be a normal adult. Even the people who successfully go through puberty because the drug is cut off early tend to get health problems like brittle bones. This was already known thanks to it’s earlier use in precocious puberty cases, and efforts to gain short girls a little extra height.
Pretty nasty thing to do to somebody over a psychological condition that normally goes away on its own.
It does not 'normally resolve' by then. Puberty blockers are safe. They're used on cis kids all the time and in greater numbers.
Do children grow out of gender dysphoria?
I'm sure you won't like the site, but they provide a LOT of links to scientific studies.
The evidence seems to be that gender dysphoria naturally resolves in most cases where the child is allowed to go through puberty without medical intervention. Puberty blockers do seem to be pretty effective at preventing it from resolving, though.
Can you point me to a single one of those studies that relies on an actual diagnosis of gender dysphoria? I went through a few the last time you used this argument, and they were all ‘visited a clinic once or twice then never returned.’
Or rather, puberty blockers are used, sometimes, when an actual diagnosis has been made, which is, as you know, how it should be.
I have my suspicions about studies because it is likely many of these kids never had gender dysphoria.
At the heart of this controversy is whether the state should be overruling the broad consensus of the medical community that some kids (those who really have gender dysphoria) should be getting gender-affirming care. It seems to me, the state does not have the evidence to support the laws being passed, and the decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis by the patients, their parents, and their doctors.
I will also note that those who support these laws are very likely to oppose transgender rights in general, and use these edge cases as a wedge against supporters of transgender rights (much in the same way abortion opponents use edge cases such as late-term abortion).
Nope. Hell, even the NYT is admitting that the science isn't clear.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/health/puberty-blockers-transgender.html
There may be long term effects. Just like every other medication ever made. They need to be studied. Like with every other medication ever made. They’ve been in use since the 1980s.
('Even the NYT' isn't much of an 'even,' especially on transgender issues.)
Nige is cool with letting kindergartners change gender without input from their parents. It’s the orthodoxy of his tribe so it’s apostasy to even question it a little. You pagans ought to cut him a break.
Kindergartners don't 'change gender' stop lying, or stop believing your own orthodoxy.
Going in to 2024, it won't matter who they nominate, they'll still be going all in on criminalising abortion and trans people, and presumably CRT and books they don't like and being woke, no matter how much they try to pretend to make it about the economy.
We're talking about medical treatments that irreversibly compromise fertility, and not just fertility; Many of these kids will never have normal lives again. And in the context of most gender dysphoria resolving by the end of puberty.
So, yeah, I'm cool with doing that. It's just politically trendy child abuse.
It's a medical treatment, it has effects, that's the point. It's already quite difficult to access, and less than 1% of people who undergo it express regrets. Similar treatments are used for young cis people all the time, at far greater numbers. Your squeamishness and prejudices are irrelevant. It's authoritarian repression targeted at a small minority of people and anyone in the families who support them.
If the government can tell me I can't have a wide variety of treatments that would delay aging related sarcopenea, just because they might be used by athletes to cheat, I don't see why prohibiting a controversial treatment for a much rarer problem is off limits.
Again, it's politically trendy child abuse.
It’s not a controversial treatment. It’s a treatment that has been cynically monstered by reactionaries. What's abusive is criminalising these kids and their families for trying to access health care.
So, you're saying you don't understand the definition of "controversial"?
I understand a calculated political campaign to make something controversial.
So, you’re saying you don’t understand the definition of “controversial”?
To further support Nige's reply, there is a rather large difference between something being controversial within a community of experts and the people directly affected, and something being made controversial by people with no direct stake in it for political gain and/or to satisfy their own prejudices and hang ups.
Freedumb! . . . to chemically castrate children !!
"(3-a)AA"Intersex child" means a child who is younger than 18 years of age and either:
(A) has inborn chromosomal, gonadal, genital, or endocrine characteristics, or a combination of those characteristics, that are not suited to the typical definition of male or female or are atypical for the determined sex of the child;"
Wait a minute, aren't there just two sexes, period?
Obergefell being reversed highly likely?? How? Millions have organized their lives in reliance. I think a Court of 9 CTs wouldn't reverse.
“Section 4 bars states from denying recognition to same-sex marriages contracted elsewhere. But it does not require them to allow such marriages to be formed within their own territories. Nonetheless, Section 4 would potentially allow residents of states that bar same-sex marriages to enter into them in another state, and then come home, secure in the knowledge that their home state will have to recognize their marriage.”
Which is what the Obergefell ruling should have been in the first place.
Where in the Constitution was Congress delegated the power to regulate and define "marriage" ?
This bill does not define marriage. It also ought to be uncontroversial that the federal government has the power to decide which marriages (defined by the states) it will recognize. It seems to me at first blush the part of the bill that requires states to recognize valid marriages performed in another state is authorized by the Full Faith and Credit clause.
It seems to me at first blush the part of the bill that requires states to recognize valid marriages performed in another state is authorized by the Full Faith and Credit clause.
ML seems to have a hard time with parts of the Constitution that don't fit with what he wants it to say or mean.
JasonT20 seems to have a hard time understanding that principles always cut both ways, and would equally apply to laws like DOMA.
Congress just basically replaced or altered DOMA. Which they and only they are allowed to do under the constitution. You should be celebrating the rare instance in which our betters didn’t twist their way around the constitution.
But you’re not. Because it benefits a group you don’t like.
How much we really believe our own bullshit about rights and so on is defined by whether we’re willing to extend them to a group we don’t like. You and most of the hard core red team folks are failing that test. Miserably.
Your comment doesn't make any sense to me, sorry.
I think you're trying to say it's good that Congress as a legislature did something here rather than SCOTUS or another court. Broadly speaking I agree that very general format is usually more constitutionally proper than what we get. However, I was specifically asking about the powers of Congress here. Congress was supposed to have limited enumerated powers under the Constitution and as you may be aware, the majority of what Congress does or has done is unconstitutional. I do realize it's like pissing in the wind to talk about following the original meaning of the Constitution. At any rate, Josh R makes some good points to this specific matter as I said below, which is why I asked.
As someone who is skeptical that the bill of rights was incorporated against the States, and who has little use for the Republican party, your accusations of being one-sided and unprincipled are uninformed and do not impress.
DOMA was held to be unconstitutional under the Due Process clause of the Fifth Amendment. That argument doesn’t apply to RMA. But even assuming SCOTUS didn’t rule on that basis, it’s quite possible that DOMA would be outside Congress’s power while RMA would be within it because only the former defines marriage (the latter leaves the definition to the states).
Good points. There could be some legitimate things there that Congress could address.
"It also ought to be uncontroversial that the federal government has the power to decide which marriages (defined by the states) it will recognize."
That would be a convenient phrasing, but I don't think the federal government tends to make such a distinction between "defining" and "recognizing." Such a distinction may be inevitably specious, but I agree it seems they could define it at least for purposes of federal law and thus have an ancillary ability to engage in culture war, as opposed to using neutral terms (of course assuming such federal law is properly premised on an enumerated power).
Section 4 of the law, which applies to the federal government is entitled “Marriage Recognition” and includes:
I don’t think that defines marriage. But if it does, then the definition is “whatever the states define it as,” which I think ought to be OK with you.
Doesn't this law exclude poly marriages?
So it is "whatever the states define it as . . . so long as they define it how we direct. Gay twosomes are in, throuples are out, etc" Anything about robots? That's coming.
The law does. It does't ban polygamous marriage; any state is free to recognize that if it wants to. It just doesn't compel other states or the federal government to do so even if one state does.
"As I explained in a previous post, the original RMA would indeed have required the federal government to recognize polygamous marriages if a state were to legalize them."
Haha. So much hypocrisy. It doesn't protect incestuous marriages (even a marriage that was chaste), does it? And of course Congress can't force states to reognize marriages from other states (or countries). That kind of family law has quintessentially always been the province of the states.