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Boycotting Law Schools in Clerk Hiring As a Way to Influence Law School Culture
Thoughts in response to Judge Ho's recent announcement.
Fifth Circuit Judge James Ho recently announced that he will be taking on cancel culture through his law clerk hiring practices. Judge Ho believes that the most significant cancel culture problems in legal education today are at Yale Law School. He has therefore decided that, in his capacity as a United States judge, he will no longer hire any Yale Law graduates as law clerks. And he is encouraging other judges to join him.
As I understand things from David Lat's useful coverage, Judge Ho's goal is to change the culture of law schools. By imposing a boycott, and by getting as many other conservative judges as he can to join him, he might discourage conservative applicants from enrolling at Yale Law School. That might pressure Yale Law School to change its culture. And that in turn might cause a shift in the culture at other schools.
This a bad idea, and I hope other judges do not adopt it. Given our blog's traditional readership among conservative judges and clerks, I thought I would take a minute here to say why.
First, some context. I think it's fine if federal judges want to express their personal opinions about law school cultures. Judges can give public talks in their personal capacity, and they can write op-eds in their personal capacity. They can write books, go on podcasts, upload TikTok videos, or whatever. We all have opinions, and judges do, too. If they want to express them, I don't have a problem with that.
I also think it's fine for judges to decide not to hire graduates from a particular law school because they don't expect clerks from that school to work out well. Federal judges pretty much have their choice of clerks. In choosing which applicants to hire, it's natural for judges to favor some schools, and to disfavor others, because the judges think they're likely to have better or worse experiences hiring clerks from there. That's all fine, too.
What Judge Ho is doing seems different, though. He is trying to use his position as a government official, and the accompanying power to direct taxpayer dollars to employ staff, in a way that maximizes his personal agenda outside of his government work.
Some will agree with that agenda, and others won't. But whatever your views on that, I think this 'boycott' crosses an important line. It's the line between judges expressing their personal views in an effort to persuade (which is fine), and judges harnessing their power as government officials to create pressure on private institutions to further their personal agendas (which is not fine, in my view).
Judge Ho has anticipated at least part of this objection. David Lat reports:
To those who'd say he should "stay in his lane" and stop telling law schools (and law school deans) how to go about their business, [Judge Ho would] argue that judges are already expressing preferences of all sorts—e.g., judges who promise oral argument if litigants let younger lawyers do the arguing, judges who take race and sex into account when appointing class-action or multi-district litigation counsel, etc.
That doesn't seem like much of a justification to me. Two wrongs don't make a right. That is, Judge Ho presumably disagrees with those other judges who have tried to use their official powers to advance their personal agendas as it relates to law firm staffing. I disagree with the decisions of those judges, too, for the same reason I disagree with Judge Ho's plan. But the fact that some judges are "already" doing something does not justify doing a lot more of it. Some judges wrongly crossing a line does not remove that line for everyone else.
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Methinks Judge Ho just said the quiet part out loud, that’s all.
Nice post. Don't know that I have much more to add.
Of course, I'm as guilty as Judge Ho here; I'm not going to hire any clerks from Yale either.
Well I won't be hiring any clerks from anyplace other than Yale.
Prof. Kerr, can you provide us with the post where you spoke out against "judges who promise oral argument if litigants let younger lawyers do the arguing, judges who take race and sex into account when appointing class-action or multi-district litigation counsel, etc."?
Or did you only do it in this case?
I have mostly stopped blogging here --- I post only rarely --- and generally only about the Fourth Amendment. Given that, I don't think I have written here about it. But why do you ask? (And I suppose to be polite I should ask you, too: Can you provide us to the post where you expressed the same view?)
Diminishing your association with bigots and obsolete, disaffected culture war casualties deserves credit. I am confident Berkeley appreciates and deserves it..
So that would be a 'no', then - your panties did not get in a twist over "judges who take race and sex into account", but you suddenly decide to post after a long hiatus when a conservative judge does something similar, and declare that it "crosses a line".
It is probably for the best that you have mostly stopped blogging here. If I want to read left-wing claptrap masquerading as an academic or legal opinion, I can go to Salon.
Thanks, ZZTOP8970, and welcome to the Volokh Conspiracy. Will you be at the lawyer's conference in November? If so, maybe you share with me then what the non--"left-wing claptrap" position on this looks like.
You're welcome, but a bit late to the party. I've been posting here for years.
I won't be in attendance in November, but I'm happy to take up your claptrap here.
Have you stopped posting everywhere?
You've been accused of hypocrisy, in case that is not clear to you (which I doubt).
And your attempt to distract from the evidence of that isn't as successful as you apparently think it is.
He hasn't, actually.
"You talked about situation X, but you never talked about situation Y" is not, in fact, hypocrisy.
Yale could respond by refraining from hiring or admitting conservatives.
Right-wingers tend to be bigoted in several respects — racists, gay-bashers, xenophobes, misogynists.
They tend to be gullible and superstitious, believing nonsense while outsourcing moral judgments to a bunch of old-timely fairy tales.
When conservatives get control of a campus they turn it into a censorship-shackled, nonsense-teaching, discriminatory, fourth-tier goober farm.
Why pretend conservatives belong in or contribute to the modern liberal-libertarian mainstream? Let them attend and work at Ave Maria, Regent, Brigham Young, Liberty, and a few downscale schools in can’t-keep-up states such as Wyoming, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Alabama, and West Virginia.
America’s betters should take a cue from Judge Ho and stop indulging political correctness.
Right wingers bigoted? Really? I could say the same about Xtreme leftwing Marxist. Yale law in case you are uninformed is a Racist, woke , lunatic school. I hope Judges refuse to hire the clowns.
"Right wingers bigoted? Really?"
Yes, really. As in not just bigoted, but really bigoted. Confederate flag-waving racist bigoted.
How do you intend to spend the time you have remaining before you are replaced by better Americans, jbrennan 2?
It seems like judges already treat clerkship hiring power as a sort of personal property. For example, a judge may select a clerk because they are a better tennis player and the judge would like to improve their game.
This is just an extension of that logic. Instead here the personal preference advanced is a far-fetched and very unlikely to succeed attempt to influence Yale Law School.
I am not saying I disagree with Professor Kerr, but I think the issue is quite a bit deeper and goes to the extent that judges see clerks as an extension of themselves versus employees selected based on meritocracy.
The federal clerkship system has become a taxpayer-funded affirmative action program for disaffected, bigoted culture war casualties.
How long will better Americans accept this situation?
Anyone who pretends the American legal system is a meritocracy is a moron anyway.
Your first sentence says that they "already" do something; your second says that they "may" do this. Do you have any evidence that they do?
The prevalence of Federalist Society members among Republican-nominated judges' clerks indicate something other than merit is influencing -- if not controlling -- hiring decisions.
The documented feeder systems -- a judge repeatedly hiring clerks recommended or employed by that judge's former clerks -- is another point indicating something other than a meritocracy with respect to this distribution of public funds and opportunities.
The tennis example came from an interview with a Court of Appeals judge on Advisory Opinions, a center-right law podcast by David French and Sarah Isgur that I regularly listen to.
You further discredit yourself. Obviously your implication that the two sentences contradict one another is idiotic. If judges are "already" doing some combination of (a), (b), (c).... then of course, "for example" a judge "may" do (b) in a particular instance. Sheesh.
I'm an engineer, and I usually hire 1 or 2 new college grads every couple of years.
There are a few schools whose new grads I absolutely refuse to hire. I refuse to hire their new grads because I think those schools do a poor job training their graduates in 1 very specific thing. Those new grads are probably fine engineers otherwise, but I think their ignorance in that 1 thing makes them dangerous. I'd be happy to hire their new grads again, once those schools do a better job educating their kids. But that's up to the schools. I just choose to hire the new grads I think are trained properly.
Perhaps Judge Ho finds YLS graduates also deficient in their training in an area important to him?
From the OP:
In choosing which applicants to hire, it's natural for judges to favor some schools, and to disfavor others, because the judges think they're likely to have better or worse experiences hiring clerks from there. That's all fine, too.
What Judge Ho is doing seems different, though. He is trying to use his position as a government official, and the accompanying power to direct taxpayer dollars to employ staff, in a way that maximizes his personal agenda outside of his government work.
That is a pretty weak argument. Since Kerr agrees that it is fine if judges don't hire people from a certain school if they "think they’re likely to have better or worse experiences hiring clerks from there" - how is that different from Ho deciding he's likely to have a worse experience with Yale graduates? This is directly related to his government work as a government judge.
Ho is not commenting on his experiences with YLS grads. Implicitly, he thinks they are fine, because he would go back to hiring them if YLS would cancel its cancel culture.
No, he thinks that YLS currently does a poor job of educating prospective law clerks so he won't hire them and that if YLS changes, then future grads might not suffer from the current poor education.
I don't see it. If there was an actual problem with the quality of the graduates, why would he be boycotting only prospectively?
The explanation is right there in the passage that you quoted- it would be unfair to those who already went there not knowing there would be consequences of this nature.
ZZTOP, I think you're just replacing Judge Ho's position with a different position, one he explicitly is not making, and one that no one here would have any problem with. I don't know why you would do that, but it's not actually listening to Judge Ho. (There are many judges who don't hire Yale Law grads b/c they don't think a Yale Law education is good training; that's of course a perfectly fine view for a judge to take.)
I think Prof. Kerr agrees with me on this. So I've got that going for me, which is nice.
Who are these judges who figure Yale training is inadequate?
What schools do they prefer for training?
I don’t think so. His opposition to what’s going on at YLS is not based on whimsy – he thinks what is going on at YLS produces a bad legal product – one that is intolerant of opposing views, and has said so.
“…more than 60 percent of the law school’s student body [apparently 417 students] signed an open letter… condemn[ing]… the Federalist Society for hosting…[t]he March 10 panel, which … featured Monica Miller of the progressive American Humanist Association and Kristen Waggoner of the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), a conservative nonprofit that promotes religious liberty. Both groups had taken the same side in a 2021 Supreme Court case involving legal remedies for First Amendment violations.” https://freebeacon.com/campus/hundreds-of-yale-law-students-disrupt-bipartisan-free-speech-event/
A 60% rotten apple rate is certainly a good reason to not waste time trying to pick through that barrel, whether or not Ho is choosing to draw that entirely proper conclusion.
Have you actually about the crap that has been going on for years
His agenda is too hire qualified law clerks who will not have blatant bias and refuse to listen to both sides
Dozens of YLS students didn’t just protest a speaker in a free speech debate but shut down the conference and harassed the speaker because they didn’t like her politics. She was harassed and required a police escort to get out of the building
The administration failed to reprimand any student which implies that they don’t even believe in listening to facts
Hard to believe any of these students would make a good judge and that is Ho’s point
"Dozens" severely understates the problem. The relevant number appears to be 417. I wrote about this immediately above just before seeing your comment.
HEY Judge Ho you piece of shit!!!
Why did you create and spread the Wuhan Flu that killed millions of people?!?
Fuck you and I'm glad people randomly attack Asians.
(Rev. K, "apedad, have you gone mad? Me, "No. I'm just following Judge Ho's logic that since he thinks every Eli is a woke libtard, then every Asian is responsible for COVID.)
I think you let your emotions get the better of you with that post
Do recent Yale grads or current Yale professors have a basis to disqualify him from cases they are on because he has an open hostility to their school that goes way beyond a personal preference he keeps to himself?
Maybe. But a Supreme Court that tolerates the Ginny And Clarence act might appoint Judge Aileen Cannon to handle all such motions.
Enlargement approaches.
How about the Jew, and the fat Puerto Rico Affirmative action judge. Oh I forgot, now we have a African who can't give a definition of a Woman, because she's not a biologist. Of course that's a lie. 3 Democrat clowns.
This is your core and target audience, Volokh Conspirators.
This is also why your deans hope you will expand your employment horizons soon.
And why your right-wing preferences are doomed by the culture war.
You mean a personal preference for clerks who have an open mind and will listen to all sides rather than shutting down and physically harassing someone who they disagree with
You don't say "no whites", you say "a diverse candidate pool." And you don't (as a government hiring manager) say "no Yalies", you say "dedicated to a tolerant and diverse world view."
As a non-government person I can say I am not impressed with the student attitude at Yale in recent decades. However, I have no job openings at the moment and any boycott would be in name only.
TBF, the reason they say those things is because HR and in-house counsel tell them they have to say that. But it's a different world for personal appointees in government work, outside of civil service hires.
It's not clear to me that Yale would actually find an action to discourage conservatives from applying at Yale objectionable, and be motivated to change their policy.
Even if they cared, I'm sure they'll get plenty of conservative applicants anyway. It's not like they have trouble filling the class each year.
Losing out on potential students who already want to clerk for the most insufferable judge on the entire appellate bench even before getting into law school is probably a good thing for everyone at that school, liberal and conservative alike. No one should be subjected to that kind of person. Classes, Federalist Society meetings and Journal would be much more bearable without the guy (it is definitely a guy) who already wants to work for the judge who turns out tedious self-indulgent concurrences that read like blog posts to his own, already tedious, majority opinion.
Would it be wrong to say "I think Yale is turning out inferior lawyers, unprepared for real practice, with myopic worldviews, and I will no longer hire their graduates as clerks"?
Jr is exactly what he is saying based on the multiple examples of the school allowing students to harass speakers who they disagree with and a school that allows this behavior
If other judges are doing similar things, then Judge Ho is not crossing a line.
Other judges don't give public speeches about how they won't hire law clerks from this school because they don't like its culture and encourage other judges to do the same to put pressure on the school to change its ways.
If they did, we wouldn't be talking about this.
Yale law clerks would probably give their Marxist friends in the Media advanced Supreme Court opinions. I sure wouldn't trust them.
Thomas, Alito and Kavanugh are YLS alum. As is Josh Hawley. The Federalist Society started at YLS.
Thomas graduated Yale in 74. Alito in 75. That's more than 45 years ago. has it occurred to you that a thing or two might have changed at YLS in the last few decades?
And Hawley was 2006. But whatevs. Go ahead and throw career obstacles in the path of the best conservative students at the best law school just to own the libs. I'm sure that will be great for the conservative movement. Lol.
Movement conservatism is doomed regardless of anything Yale or Yale's enemies do.
I am touched that you care so much about the career obstacles in the path of the best conservative students.
There's a simple solution to this, obviously - the best conservative students will go somewhere else, slightly more tolerant, and pretty quickly, if other judges follow suit, Yale will no longer be "the best law school" (assuming, ad argumentum, that it is now)
Yeah, I don't like it when anyone's treated unfairly, whatever their politics. It's called not being a partisan tool. Try it. Admittedly, that conservative YLS students are being screwed by a conservative activist judge is entertainingly ironic, but the big picture is I'd rather they not get screwed at all.
As for your "solution," that's fine for students applying to law school now or in the future. But what about the students already at YLS? They've done nothing to deserve being shut of out of this dick's clerkships, and as many other dick judges as he can persuade to join him. If he had any decency, at minimum he'd announce his boycott to start 3 years from now. But I guess that's not aggrieved and outraged enough.
It was Prof. Kerr who equated Judge Ho's conduct with that of other judges, and riposted that two wrongs don't make a right. I'm just pointing out that this position is inconsistent with the claim that he is crossing a line.
Other law schools don’t tolerate students shutting down a free speech conference and harassing a speaker they disagree with to the point of requiring a police escort to exit the building
I hope you are not a lawyer since you clearly have no idea about the actual facts of the story
And law students don’t shut down and harass a lawyer because the disagree with her politics
I hope you are not a lawyer since you clearly have no idea about the actual facts of the story
Adler effectively admits that “other judges” “promise oral argument if litigants let younger lawyers do the arguing, …. [and]take race and sex into account when appointing class-action or multi-district litigation counsel, etc.” So, no, Ho is nowhere near any actual line.
Judge Ho seems busy with his culture warring, so I have assembled a list of law schools that seem a natural fit as clerk feeders for Judge Ho (and likely other conservative judges):
Regent, Liberty, Ave Maria -- an invisible hand led us toward these schools . . . and what a happy coincidence -- these schools believe in the same fairy tales and superstition as Judge Ho! Could it be a miracle, or is it merely divine providence?
Chapman -- any school that attracts (and appoints) John Eastman and Hugh Hewitt can't be all bad!
South Texas College of Law Houston -- exposure to Josh Blackman is the clincher here. And the bonus is that a South Texas grad will know Judge Ho's birthday by heart!
Empire College School of Law -- this school is unaccredited, which provides invaluable street cred for conservatives who disdain the modern American mainstream and its fancy-talking "elites."
Drivon School of Law -- also unaccredited, with a 13% bar passage rate that demonstrates the degree to which this school counterpunches against the credentialed elites who conduct bar examinations.
University of West Los Angeles -- (sometimes known as the Blutarsky School, consequent to its most recent bar passage rate for first timers in California: 0.0)
Nashville School of Law -- not only unaccredited, but formerly known as the Nashville YMCA Night Law School, and any school that wears Christianity on its sleeve (or t-shirts) is an automatic Federalist Society favorite!
Oak Brook College of Law -- unaccredited, but with this mission: "train individuals who desire to advance the gospel of Jesus Christ through service as advocates of truth, counselors of reconciliation, and ministers of justice . . . " The chair of the Colorado Republican Party is a graduate of this fine institution.
You are welcome, Judge Ho.
Judge Ho doubtless thinks the culture that YLS fosters is harmful to the legal profession. That is a reasonable opinion. It is well within the role of a federal judge to take acts--including official acts--aimed at improving the legal profession.
Diminishing the issue to part of Ho's "personal agenda" is unfair--or at least, in my view, wrong. Is it a judge's personal agenda to speak at a law school function? How about a CLE presentation?
Thank you. Some around here think that name-calling and personal attacks are valid argumentation. That degrades legal discourse and analysis. That is what has become manifest in places like Yale.
Nice effort to twist the point into something you think resembles reasonableness. Prof. Kerr doesn’t see it the way you describe. I suspect he’s right and you’re wrong.
Arguably, in the eyes of God, Kerensky was right and Lenin wrong. In the eyes of history, not so much.
S/C audition continues.
I am curious as to how judges select individuals for clerkships?
How do they winnow out the large number of new lawyers that are turned out each year?
Mainly top schools, good grades, law review and professor recommendations.
You omitted Federalist Society membership (with respect to right-wing judges).
Why?
He said "mainly". YOU didn't choose to mention "affirmative" "diversity", etc. Why?
The federal courts have a centralized application processing system called OSCAR. Judges post when they have clerkships available and any specific requirements for them (some will only take people on law review or with a certain GPA/class rank for instance). Applicants submit their materials on OSCAR and pick which judges they are going to apply for. I assume the judicial accounts have a way to organize all the applicants for the judge for easy review. And of course presumably the current clerks might help look them over.
I have no opinion on the effectiveness or societal 'rightness' of such a boycott but the claim that it is forbidden because the person is a judge does not hold water here. The judge is acting here as an ordinary employer, not as a "government official".
Employers can and do express their opinions about the quality of candidates coming out of specific academic programs. And that definition of "quality" is unbounded. There is no reason that judges (when acting solely as employers) should not get the same latitude.
I miss Professor Kerr’s thoughtful comments. I fear Gresham’s Law may apply to the quality of legal discourse. Perhaps internet discourse generally.
Wouldn't this be a first amendment violation for retaliation against the right to congregate/association?
What about the speaker who was an invited guest, right to speech without being physically harrassed
Yale is a private institution so the First Amendment isn't applicaple. But I do think that there is a big problem on college campuses with shouting down speakers who some students don't like. Still that is just a non secuitur that is nothing but whataboutism. Either you think it's right or wrong. I hate this notion that the "other side" does it so we should to. If anything that just validates their position.
Yale graduates are not a protected class.
First Amendment doesn't have some protected class requirement. Try again
As "zztop8970" says, this seems pretty weak-sauce. It's okay to not hire from Yale because he expects them to be terrible, but somehow not okay to announce it?
If President Biden says he will fill a Supreme Court justice position only with a Black woman, would Judge Kerr object with the same principles that he uses against Judge Ho's position? Unfortunately, our judiciary system is far from being free of political whims, so I wouldn't gainsay Judge Ho's position because he is applying his own positional whims.