The Volokh Conspiracy
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Another Commentary on the Fifth Circuit's Texas Social Media Law Decision
As I noted yesterday, I'm still trying to fully digest the Netchoice v. Paxton opinions, but I passed along two commentaries from top scholars on the subject, one entirely critical from Prof. Genevieve Lakier (Chicago) and one that's mostly critical from Prof. Alan Rozenshtein (Minnesota). I thought I'd also pass along are more positive commentary from Prof. Adam Candeub (Michigan State):
Last Friday in NetChoice v. Paxton, Judge Andy Oldham of the U.S. Court of Appeals wrote an opinion for the Fifth Circuit upholding H.B.20, Texas's law prohibiting social media platforms, such as Twitter and Facebook, from discriminating against users based on their viewpoints. The Texas law would require the internet platforms' content-moderation policies to employ viewpoint-neutral criterion, ending censorship of conservatives and dissenters from the internet.
Big Tech supporters on the left and libertarian right greeted the opinion with beating of breasts and gnashing of teeth. The Left worries that the platforms will be less able to stifle views it finds dangerous and undesirable. (Commenters on the Left have yet to square this view to their hostility to corporate First Amendment rights in Citizens United.) Libertarians decry the opinion as an intrusion on the internet platform's "editorial discretion" which they claim the First Amendment protects completely. Both sides smear the opinion as an act of judicial willfulness unmoored from precedent.
But Judge Oldham's opinion stands on firm ground. The opinion's critics argue that the First Amendment protects the act of exercising "editorial discretion": the right of platforms to control what content they transmit. But, critics forget that the First Amendment protects only expressive acts—a point made clear in the two Supreme Court case on which Big Tech (and Judge Oldham's critics) base all their critique: Miami Herald v. Tornillo and Hurley v. Irish American Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Group of Boston.
In Miami Herald, the Supreme Court held that when newspaper editors decide to include a particular op-ed in their pages, they convey the editors' message that the article is insightful or otherwise valuable. Similarly, the St. Patrick Day's Parade organizers in Hurley, expressed a message, attributable to them, of general support for each group it approved to march, communicating with the various groups a discrete set of ideas and positions.
In contrast, most platform acts of content moderation are not expressive under the Supreme Court tests. Most obviously, they are not expressive because most are never communicated and therefore cannot convey a message. For instance, shadow banning, by which a platform renders a user's posts invisible to all but that user, cannot convey a message because no one knows, except the platform, that it is happening.
Indeed, all other types of invisible content prioritizations lack the required expressiveness because users don't know when content is promoted or hidden. Instead, invisible prioritization only communicates by reference to other speech—and as the Court recognized in Rumsfeld v. FAIR, protected speech must convey a message itself, without extraneous explanation. Finally, content moderation as a whole cannot convey a message because the platforms keep their decisions private, and users lack access to representative samplings of edited material to infer any message.
Of course, when an internet firm bars an individual from their platforms because of his viewpoint and explains why, the platform engage in an expressive act. But, these acts of platform censorship simply express discriminatory animus. Just as the First Amendment does not protect lunch counters in their "expressive" refusals to serve individuals belonging to a particular race or religious groups, so the First Amendment does not protect the platforms in their discriminatory refusal to serve the public even if the platforms consider their refusals expressive. Indeed, state and local civil rights laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of political belief or affiliation—and have survived for decades without successful First Amendment challenge. H.B. 20 stands firmly on the rationale that undergirds all of our civil rights law.
And, finally, as Judge Oldham pointed out, just as telephone companies do not express their customers' conversations which they transmit, a social media platform's transmission of a message does not express its own editorial decisions or speech. The platforms themselves maintain this position vociferously. In countless section 230 cases, the social media firms argue that they should have no liability for their users' speech because it is speech, as section 230 states, of "another." Now, the platforms claim users' speech as their own for First Amendment purposes. But, they cannot have their section 230 free lunch—and eat it too.
The opinions' critics end up arguing that the First Amendment gives private businesses and entities control over opinions expressed within their premises. But, precedent rejects that view. Cable systems must carry local broadcast stations; telephone companies must carry messages expressing all viewpoints; and, airlines must carry passengers regardless of their views of the 2020 election. Similarly, courts, like the Supreme Court in Pruneyard, have long upheld state laws that require shopping centers to allow political expression, prohibit neighborhood associations from banning political lawn signs, and limit employer's ability to control their employees' political speech and expression on the job. This precedent upholds H.B.20.
The Supreme Court should grant certiorari in this case because it touches key issues in today's political discourse. The complex concerns it raises deserve the most exacting scrutiny. But, claims that the Fifth Circuit's opinion is anything but a thoughtful reflection of the Supreme Court's current First Amendment jurisprudence should not mar that important public discussion.
Prof. Candeub is a law professor at Michigan State University and senior fellow at the D.C.-based Center for Renewing America, and served as expert witness for the State of Texas in NetChoice v. Paxton.
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Candeub presents the "common carrier" argument, which sounds good at first, but simply does not stand up to the test of what actually happens in reality.
Once upon a time, we had usenet, a network of servers hosting thousands of message boards that were, except in very few cases, unmoderated. What happened? It became overwhelmed with trolls, spammers, threats of violence, etc. Today, it's still around, but largely a ghost town.
What made the successful sites successful is the moderation (mostly automated these days). The market has spoken. Nobody is going to stick around using a site without moderation.
See https://www.techdirt.com/2022/05/12/just-how-incredibly-fucked-up-is-texas-social-media-content-moderation-law/ for a longer discussion of some of the problems with this law.
? moderators to stop spammers, troll, bots, threats
or
Moderators to stop unpure thoughts - ie censorship.
The Texas law was designed to stop the censorship.
The Texas law was designed to combat a problem that does not exist.
People are not getting mass-banned simply for having conservative viewpoints. The people who get in trouble, do so because they cannot express themselves in a manner consistent with the rules of the platforms.
....now sure, those platform rules specifically target conservatives and all, but hey, they're the incredibly malleable and definitely not written rules.
Just like how blacks did not "qualify" to vote in the South after Reconstruction. It wasn't that they were specifically stopped, just that all laws to prevent voting went after them pretty much alone.
I don't think any of those words mean what you think they mean. I'm reminded of the famous tweet:
That posts like, "We should overthrow the government" and "Yay, Hitler" get banned does not mean that Twitter is specifically targeting conservatives.
Nah, Conservatives are banned for "misinformation" like saying Hunter Biden left a laptop full of incriminating information at a Delaware repair shop.
I know! Let's play a fun game. You tell me what has been established as true, based on the public record, about the "Hunter Biden laptop." And I'll concede that those bits don't constitute "disinformation."
Or, you know, you can continue to obliquely make deliberately false references to it and then complain about being treated as though you're working for a foreign government that has invested heavily in spreading deliberately false message about Biden on social networks.
Let me give you an example from my own life. I and some long time friends on the internet, who'd met at an old BBS, kept migrating from platform to platform. We had a private group on FB where we discussed the things grumpy old engineers normally discuss; Politics, technology, you name it. We weren't even all right-wing, we just liked arguing about things.
Everything was fine for a while, then suddenly our group administrator started getting messages from FB that we were engaging in objectionable content, and the group would be shut down if we didn't stop. We even got locked out of it several times.
At no point did FB explain to us what content they found objectionable! We were being required to guess what was annoying them, and self censor on that basis.
And, keep in mind this was a private, invitation only group. Literally nobody but us would have seen our discussions, so we absolutely should not have been offending anybody. We'd gotten no complaints, why would we have? FB had empowered some moral scold to just poke their nose into private groups and issue threats.
Now, my study of psychology, though decades old, does make sense of this, but not in a good way. This is kind of classic behavior if you're trying to condition people to mindless obedience, rather than persuade them.
What it isn't is any sort of defensible "content moderation".
Your anecdote amply demonstrates the central issue which is not content moderation, but content moderation that is arbitrary, inconsistent and opaque. Complaining about conservative views being censored is something that occurs either in a bubble, completely ignorant of how others are affected by the same, or as cynically working the refs. Most complaints about conservative censorship aren't about freedom of speech, they're about demanding exemptions from rules that should apply to everyone, moderation capture, if you will.
This is kind of classic behavior if you’re trying to condition people to mindless obedience, rather than persuade them.
No, this was a big company being shitty. That's all. Shittiness is not a plan to create mindless drones. You sound like some Marxist dealing with his cable company.
How do you know that one of your group members didn't complain to FB?
Jason Cavanaugh 3 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"The Texas law was designed to combat a problem that does not exist."
If the problem doesnt exist - then why is so much capital being spent to repeal / void the law?
If the problem doesnt exist - then this so called ban is moot!
Because the law does bad things! This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
"You should drink some arsenic to cure your demonic possession."
"This solves a problem that doesn't exist."
"If it doesn't exist, then why are you upset at people being told to drink arsenic?"
Jason Cavanaugh 8 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
The Texas law was designed to combat a problem that does not exist."
That s not true
I know one individual that got banned for factually correct statements on covid. the statements he made polite and factually correct. (30 day timeouts)
You may not be, strictly speaking, knowledgeable about covid.
David Nieporent 18 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
You may not be, strictly speaking, knowledgeable about covid."
David
Care to point out anything I have said about covid that has turned out to false.
Thats pretty brave coming from someone who was claiming as late as spring 2022 that covid vaccines remained effective after 6 six months contrary to studies proving otherwise that starting coming out in August 2021 .
I would presume that you are aware that since late jan 2022/early feb 2022, the per capita infection rates, hospitalization rates and the death rates for the unvaxed, the vaxed and the vaxed and boosted show very little difference.
Look, you're doing it again!
David Nieporent 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Look, you’re doing it again!"
Absolutely at it again - making a statement that is accurate and which you lack the knowledge and basic critical analytical skills to know that is accurate.
https://healthy-skeptic.com/2022/09/23/breakthrough-events-september-22/
Nope.
"Findings In this cross-sectional study of US adults hospitalized with COVID-19 during January 2022 to April 2022 (during Omicron variant predominance), COVID-19-associated hospitalization rates were 10.5 times higher in unvaccinated persons and 2.5 times higher in vaccinated persons with no booster dose, respectively..."
So, no, Joe Dallas, you aren't good at recognizing what is accurate information and what isn't.
'I know one individual that got banned for factually correct statements on covid. the statements he made polite and factually correct.'
This could be accurate. Or it could indicate relentless sealioning. We may never know.
Sealioning???
Well then explain the Twitter and Facebook banning of the NY Post story on Hunter’s laptop.
Explain the banning of the Great Barrington Declaration, which while controversial is the path Sweden took to no greater harm than countries with full lockdown.
Sure go ahead and ban profanity, personal insults, and obsessive trolling, you can do that without banning the expression of ideas.
You can get banned on Reason, or more commonly muted, but it doesn't impede the free interchange of ideas.
no greater harm than countries with full lockdown
If by harm, you mean Covid deaths per 100k, you're absolutely wrong. Sweden had about 200 per 100k while demographically similar countries all had a rate about half that. Twice as many people died in Sweden as compared to countries who took stronger measures to prevent the spread.
If by "harm" you mean to include things like damage to the economy, education, etc., that's too amorphous an assertion to be right or wrong because it depends what things you are included and how you weight them relative to the 2x greater death rate.
Oops, Jason, that is deciding on the basis of imputed intent. Not allowed
The public square is now on these platforms. If I want to spread a message, do I go to the "public square" in my town, or us facebook, intragram, etc. Any platform with over 1bn people is now the public square and should be viewed as a common carrier.
But they’re not limiting themselves to stopping trolls and spammers and threats of violence. If they were, this would never have become an issue. Instead they’re shutting down political speech from one side.
I sympathize with the libertarian position on this, but the social media companies made this mess so they can wallow in it.
What side? Russian troll farms?
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/journalist-sues-twitter-for-banning-her-over-women-arent-men-tweets/
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/journalist-sues-twitter-for-banning-her-over-women-arent-men-tweets/
And the courts correctly tossed this LOLSuit. What's your point, other than airing grievances? There's a time and a place for that, and it's called Festivus.
"Murphy filed suit, alleging breach of contract, promissory estoppel, and violation of the unfair competition law. The trial court dismissed the complaint, concluding Murphy’s suit was barred by the Communications Decency Act of 1996, 47 U.S.C. 230, under which interactive computer service providers have broad immunity from liability for traditional editorial functions undertaken by publishers—such as decisions whether to publish, withdraw, postpone or alter content created by third parties. The court of appeal affirmed. "
https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/2021/a158214.html
The think is, John, that citing examples of conservatives banned by Twitter or FB does nothing - nothing - to prove that this is a systematic practice.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Twitter was unreasonable here. So what? Maybe they have been unreasonable with left-wing users as well.
Do they ban more conservatives than liberals? I don't know, but if they do maybe it's because they lie more, at least recently.
I know it's generally believed on the right that the companies are biased against conservatives. I, at least, have not seen proof of this victimization.
They did a study, conservatives were banned more.
They called it "misinformation" being banned more. But Twitter defines what "misinformation" is.
If you say Hunter Biden left a laptop full of incriminating data in a Delaware computer repair shop. That's "misinformation" and gets you banned.
If you say that during January 6th, protestors killed a Capitol police officer, that's fine. (even though it's a complete lie).
Once you define "misinformation" like you want, you can have the bias you want.
They did a study, conservatives were banned more.
I think what you mean is, "they" did a fake "study." "They" put together a bunch of sockpuppets, to which they attributed various dubious statements of the left/right persuasion, and then saw how often those sockpuppets got banned.
You know what might actually be a relevant study of banning patterns? Let's see what FB, Twitter, et al., have actually done, with the masses of accounts, tweets, and status updates. Research that.
The study you seem to be referring to is really no different from a Veritas sting. You bait for the fish you're looking to catch.
Doesn't matter, people are being banned for legitimate speech, whether left, right, conspiracy theorists, whatever.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Simon, your reply is baiting [ chuckle ]
You think what he means -- again, HE knows what he means.
This is really no different from that -- one of the most basic logic faults there is. Life is no different from chemicals. Hence all talk of love, morality , God and anything important is well just crap from a blabbing robot.
Simon, Simon, get a mirror
They did a study, conservatives were banned more.
"They?"
In a comment thread yesterday, user Armchair Lawyer had an excellent history of the early telegraph operations and their claims of what today we would call 'moderation' of "indecent, obscene or filthy language". Despite a considerably stronger case than today's social media companies can make, telegraph companies were deemed to be common carriers. And despite that designation, they were able to continue to filter out "indecent, obscene or filthy language".
Moderation alone does not undo the argument for common carrier.
What undoes the argument for common carriers is that internet platforms are publishers, and thus do not practice business models which at all resemble those of common carriers.
Yes, exactly. More on why the "common carrier" argument makes no sense at https://www.techdirt.com/2022/02/25/why-it-makes-no-sense-to-call-websites-common-carriers/
re: "internet platforms are publishers"
No, they are not. See, for example, the majority opinion in the very case above for a detailed explanation of why they are not. By the way, the early telegraph companies tried to use that same argument - and failed despite having a stronger case for that interpretation than today's social media companies do.
"re: “internet platforms are publishers”
No, they are not. See, for example, the majority opinion in the very case above for a detailed explanation of why they are not."
So, in a thread where we're discussing whether the majority opinion was correct, you point to the majority opinion as evidence that the majority opinion was correct.
I've read their opinion. It's crap. Especially where they misquote sec 230, replacing "otherwise objectionable" with "similarly objectionable" in a stunning display of dishonesty.
You need to ask what the companies (social media) primary business model is. And that model is transmitting the information of other people, without editorial control. That is directly akin to the Telegraph and Telephone industries.
Their primary industry is one of information transmittal. Not selected creation and editing of works of art.
If I go to YouTube, and search for a video on how to unclog a toilet, I then find a video that a third party uploaded on how to unclog a toilet. That third party is a creator. YouTube is merely an method which transfers information, providing no editorial context whatsoever. It's directly akin to a library which has book on how to unclog toilets (again, the library acting as a medium to transfer someone else's information) or a telephone which transmits a plumber's call (the telephone acting as a medium to transmit the information).
If I go to YouTube, and search for a video on how to unclog a toilet, I then find a video that a third party uploaded on how to unclog a toilet.
No, you find a video that YouTube thinks is relevant to your search inquiry, based on its own internal algorithms and what videos it wants to promote. It then delivers that video on a web page or app that it designed, with fields for commenting, upvoting, a sidebar of related videos. It may or may not run ads before, during, or after the video. It may deliver the video in higher or lower-resolution, depending on your settings and subscription status.
If you picked up a telephone and spoke into it nothing other than, "how to unclog a toilet," and it connected you to a local plumber with lots of customers that paid to be promoted by the telephone company, then maybe the comparison to telephone or telegraph networks would be apt. But as it is, you're abstracting away from the various functions that social networks serve, and ignoring how much editorial control the platforms actually exercise over their content.
Eugene's series of posts expanding upon his "common carrier" argument separates out the various functions of social media networks using a clear terminology, even if he fundamentally gets the overall legal analysis wrong. You should spend some time reviewing them.
That is merely an indexing function of a database, akin to a phone book.
Haha. I don't know much about computers, but I know enough to know that your idea of how YouTube does it's search is hilarious and wrong.
No, actually it's how they started out. Basically these platforms all started out as unmediated transmitters of information between users, and then, after becoming popular, got more and more intrusive. At first to improve cash flow, but once they realized the potential, they started interfering in communications between users to warp our culture and politics, too.
Even today, on Youtube, for instance, if you're looking for an instructional video on how to repair a carburetor on a '65 Mustang, the platform just does a key word search on video titles and descriptions created by the uploader, and then sorts things according to user reactions. Then they skew the results to enhance their revenues, at the cost of utility to the user, of course. But that's how it works for things that aren't political.
Unfortunately, once a topic becomes political, they turn the skew up to 11, and deliberately warp the search results to push their own perspective. But they didn't become the dominant platform by doing this, becoming the dominant platform enabled them to get away with doing it.
That's often the mark of monopoly power: The monopolist doesn't have to worry as much about pleasing the customer, because the customer hasn't got much of an option to switch to competitors.
You can see how Google, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, all followed this same trajectory, starting out as useful services, becoming dominant on that basis, and then degrading the user experience to advance their own ends once they were dominant. Typical monopolist behavior: "We're the phone company, we don't NEED to care."
Brett! You made that up entirely. Nothing true in there at all. You should go into popular fiction in your old age.
Their primary industry is one of information transmittal. Not selected creation and editing of works of art.
What makes you suppose what follows, "Not," is a description of what publishers do? If you do think that is an adequate description of publishing practice, then you are mistaken.
You're thinking of the original Yahoo!. Or, actually, even that was a curated list of websites, not an indexed database. You fundamentally misunderstand both what the companies do and how they do it.
No, that's an example of editorial action. The fact that a video claiming to show how to unclog a toilet IS a video on that topic instead of porn or Nazis or a rickroll, indicates that YouTube has some sort of editorial control. That's the only way to keep their service useful. And part of that is being able to refuse to show Nazi toilet porn in the home maintenance section, which may be a viewpoint, but it's not helpful. Libraries have to do that too, to ensure that the books on their shelves are what they say on the cover. The telephone is a completely different thing - they *do* transfer information between two people. They don't have to host a copy and rebroadcast to anyone who asks. If they did, they'd need to know what it is, and be able to decide what to show.
That search algorithm is no different functionally from a card index at the library or a phone book used to find a plumber. It's merely an index. It is not editorial control over the content, anymore than a phone book is editorial control over a phone conversation.
Armchair, editorial control is what publishers get because they are publishers. It is not a definition of what a publisher is, or even an adequate description of what a publisher does.
All your commentary on this subject suffers from the one-sidedness of your point of view—you experience internet platforms on your device, and suppose what you see is all there is to it. After that bit of misunderstanding, you go on to reason that whatever discontents attend your device experience define the complete agenda for reform of a complicated industry you know nothing about, with business practices, methods, and requirements you cannot see or apparently even imagine.
That search algorithm is no different functionally from a card index at the library or a phone book used to find a plumber.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Given how you use it, your experience may be no different from mere indexing. But YouTube's business model is entirely based on it being functionally different from a mere index.
You are confusing your user experience with YouTube's intentional curation of content to avoid providing content they don't want to provide (whether that is preferred toilet uncloggers who paid for their spot or toilet uncloggers who don't also spew fascistic propaganda) and for providing content to users which they think will lead those users to stick around longer and come back more often.
So it's "directly akin" to two entirely different things with entirely different legal regimes governing them?
Let's change library to bookstore, because libraries are primarily public, and government control actually does affect the analysis: "it’s directly akin to a bookstore which has book on how to unclog toilets (again, the bookstore acting as a medium to transfer someone else’s information)"
Do you actually believe that a bookstore does not have a first amendment right to decide what books to sell? If so, you are delusional.
It doesn't matter that the words in the book are "someone else's information." The bookstore is deciding which people's information, and what information. That's the bookstore's speech. The bookstore decides whether to sell a book – but that's not all. It decides whether put the book at the end of the aisle so everyone walking past can see it, or whether to shelve it purely alphabetically so that one has to walk down the aisle to find it. The bookstore decides whether to order one copy of the book or 20 copies. It decides whether to feature it on a "staff recommendation" display or not. All of that is first amendment protected speech of the bookstore.
A bookstore does not have first amendment rights over its products. It is not the speaker. It is not the publisher. It is merely the seller.
It has the same rights to select and sell products as any other store or business.
And when other stores or businesses grow to such power and prominence that their authority affects significantly society as a whole through their actions as to what to sell and not to...those businesses can be regulated.
A bookstore does not have first amendment rights over its products.
Well, you’re consistent. Completely lacking in anything even remotely resembling any knowledge of the constitution, but consistent.
That may be the single dumbest thing anyone has ever said in any comment thread on the VC in the history of the VC. It may be the single dumbest thing anyone has ever said in any comment thread on any website in the history of the internet.
I suppose you could cite caselaw, directly citing the first amendment in regards to book sellers being the speakers or publishers, and not merely a conduit for information to be sold?
But really...saying that the social media corporations don't transmit information. That was pretty dumb.
No, of course I can't cite cases saying that book sellers are publishers. Why are you coming up with such a stupid strawman? How is that even relevant to anything? Do you see the word "publisher" anywhere in the first amendment? (Have you been misled by Lathrop's rambling on that topic?)
Of course I can cite trillions of cases saying that bookselling is 1A-protected activity, not a mere merchant "as any other store or business." Go into Armchair Westlaw and type "bookstore" (or "bookseller") and "first amendment" and you can find them, too. (Fair warning: you're not going to find many such cases outside the adult bookstore context, which is just about the only category of cases in which even the most far-reaching government official has considered trying to regulate the content of bookstores, because nobody other than you is insane/ignorant enough to think that a bookseller is "merely a conduit" for information to be sold.)
Sheesh, at least if you had tried to argue the ex ante/ex post distinction between a bookstore and a social media site, that wouldn't have been frivolous (though it would be constitutionally irrelevant). But to argue that a bookstore doesn't choose what speech to sell?
David got you pretty well shamed for that fascist remark. But I'm still curious. Do you really think it's fine, first-amendment-wise, for the government to ban booksellers from selling, for example, pro-capitalist books? How did your brain get there? It's kind of frightening that seemingly normal people would think that was ok.
As usual, you state 'facts' that are not true.
"And that model is transmitting the information of other people, without editorial control. That is directly akin to the Telegraph and Telephone industries."
Actually, Twitter's business model is getting people to post short statements and encourage many different page transitions to read different things to keep pushing advertisements to those users.
If people are posting offensive things that drive customers away, then Twitter's income suffers. Thus the reason why they have acceptable content rules - to keep the money from ads flowing.
How you manage to have a fundamental misunderstanding of Youtube and it's algorithm in 2022 is nothing short of a pitiful display of ignorance.
And without payment, which is why that activity is not their business model. Their business model is curating an audience and selling information about that audience, and access to that audience, to third parties.
This is not the business model of a telegraph company that sells the delivery of messages. The difference is significant and why the telegraph company can be a common carrier for hire, obligated generally to provide their service to anyone willing and able to pay the fee, and the social media company is not.
So, is that a compound statement ?? They are both publishers AND do not practice...? Because if so, you lose your argument by your own reasoning!! What lawyer couldn't destroy your contention that they "do not ...at all" ...
Why do people keep insisting on fitting social media platforms into categories into which they clearly do not belong? Proper regulation would treat them as they are, not as they overlap with different pre-existing entities and technologies. No wonder it's such a mess.
Nige, did you get this bent out of shape when Freedom of Speech was used to cover
Burning a draft card
nude interpretive dancing
Crosses on the laws of black folk?
I suspect ole Nige thinks that proper regulation ignores what is "clearly" only clear to Nige
This is a policy argument. It may be a good, wise, and politic policy argument. But it’s not a First Amendment argument.
Perhaps society may be better off if wise, benevolent, and paternalistic corporations moderate people’s speech for them. Perhaps people ought to put their faith and trust in these corporations’ goodness and wisdom and public-spiritedness.
But the question here is not whether it is wise or best policy to do this. The Texas Legislature has concluded, wisely or foolishly, that it is not. The question here is whether the Constitution confers a right on the proprietors of mass-scale social media platforms, used by the public to convery messages to each other, to moderate messages the people don’t want moderated against the people’s, by and through their elected representatives, will, however unwise and impolitic that will may be.
And I think the opinion is correct that it doesn’t. People today use social media to communicate with each other in much the same way previous generations used telephones and telegraphs. And before that, stage-coaches and wharves.
I also agree with Professor Candeub’s explanation why when social media makes a user’s message dissappear, its action is not expression in the same way a newspaper’s or a parade’s is, but is instead more like a telegraph operator refusing to transmit a message he considers immoral, or the Atlanta Motel’s refusal to rent to black people.
Agree that the argument above is a policy argument, not a legal one.
Here's the simple legal argument on why the 5th Circuit screwed the pooch here (not the only problem with the ruling, but it cuts to the chase):
The ruling ahistorically reinterprets the 1st Amendment. It claims that the only restrictions on the state is the power to remove or prohibit speech. i.e. that the state may require private entities to engage in speech that the private entities disagree with. This ignores half of settled 1A free speech jurisprudence.
And there's this howler from the ruling:
“Rather than mount any challenge under the original public meaning of the First Amendment, the Platforms instead focus their attention on Supreme Court doctrine.”
As if a century of Supreme Court precedent is irrelevant, and that the plaintiffs are supposed to offer novel, originalist interpretations instead of relying on binding precedent. How can anyone take Oldham seriously at this point?
If the 5th Circuit "screwed the pooch" here, they did so consistent with almost a century and a half of precedent on common carrier law. That's hardly ahistorical.
But I'll agree that the comment about original meaning vs precedent seems out of place. Unless Oldham was trying to say that precedent actually weighs against the plaintiffs and that they should have tried originalist interpretations if they really wanted to overturn the precedent? If so, that was not a very clear way to make the point.
Strangely, the fifth circuit did not cite a single century-old common carrier case relevant to the discussion, then. They talked about grain elevators. What the fuck does grain have to do with speech?
"What the fuck does grain have to do with speech?"
Same thing that telegraphs and telephones do. Because the social media companies are not in the business of publishing. They are in the business of information transmission.
Social media companies do not transmit information. They display it.
They absolutely transmit it. If they merely displayed it from where it was located, it would do no one any good.
No, they display it on their servers. Other companies transmit it. You understand that the Internet is a series of tubes, right? ISPs, backbone networks, etc.? They're the ones who transmit it. And they're the ones that conservatives resisted applying net neutrality rules to, on the grounds that this sort of socialistic control of the Internet was inappropriate. But now all of the sudden they love net neutrality, as long as it doesn't apply to the actual common carriers.
No David....
If you just "display" something on your server, it stays on your server. (Display is a bad word to use).
Think about it. Really hard. What do you have to do to get it from your server to the person who requests it?
Contract with a common carrier.
Just as the fact that funds are deposited in a bank doesn’t make those funds the bank’s to do with as it wishes, just as the fact telephone calls are transmitted on a telephone ckmpany’s lines doesn’t make those calls the telephone company’s speech, the fact that people’s messages are deposited in, stored in, transmitted by a social media company doesn’t in any way make those messages the social media company’s.
The messages posted on a social media company are and remain the users’ speech, and theirs alone, for all first amendment purposes.
They simply aren’t, and the law needn’t permit them to be, any of the social media company’s business.
ReaderY, pull the internet plug to cut Joe Keyboard off from his publisher, and how much expressive power remains? Publishing is a gigantic force-multiplier for expression. Publishing activity, not keyboard authorship, is what accomplishes that multiplication.
Joe Keyboard typically practices zero publishing activities. That makes it foolish in the extreme to attribute to Joe all the expressive power he gains by leveraging someone else’s publishing activities. Those are the activities the publisher uses to assemble an audience, curate the audience, enable a means of communication to that audience, monetize that process, and use at least some of the money thus raised to pay bills for all those time consuming and expensive activities, and to assure the process can continue.
No reasonable assessment of this issue is free to just assume those publisher’s contributions into existence, as if they were natural resources freely available to Joe Keyboard to exploit at his pleasure. The key to insight here is to note that typical publishing is not merely an author’s activity. It is collaborative activity. Two parties, acting together, a publisher and an author, make the message either effective, or not.
The notion of press freedom cannot countenance either party being deprived of full liberty to conduct its part in the collaborative publishing process. Joe Keyboard must be free to author whatever message he hopes to express. His would-be publisher must be free to accept that contribution, or to reject it at pleasure.
Government cannot commandeer the publisher’s purpose-built power to multiply the expressive effect of messages the publisher favors, nor can government command a publisher to multiply the expressive effect of messages the publisher disfavors. To assert that is no different than to say government cannot force Joe Keyboard to author content which Joe disagrees with.
Press freedom and speech freedom are not the same. To conflate them is to misunderstand that those separate rights must be read to protect separate sets of activities, both of which, separately protected, must be available collaboratively to achieve the expressive effect the Constitution’s authors intended to protect.
I mean, this is all sorts of conceptually confused to start with and it isn't even right!
Do you think that by depositing money in a bank you have the right to control how the bank uses it? You can withdraw the money — but that's where conceptual confusion comes in — but you can't tell them what to do with it.
Utterly and 100% false. Social media is public. Telephones and telegraphs are private. They are not remotely used to communicate in the same way. If you wanted to say that Facebook Messenger is used in a way similar to telephones and telegraphs, that might have some superficial merit. But Facebook is not, and has never been used, anything like a telephone or telegraph. Either you don't know what a telephone is or you don't know what Facebook is.
Stage coaches, wharves, grain elevators, railroads, and whatever other dumb analogies the fifth circuit came up with have nothing to do with the price of tea in china, since they aren't carrying speech at all.t
Social media can be private or semiprivate. Telegraphs and Telephones can be public or semipublic. Grain elevators and trains are public.
Both Telephones and social media organizations hold themselves out the public in general to provide a service of information transferal from one or more parties to one or more other parties, with minimal to no editorial control.
I will reiterate my previous conclusion: "Either you¹ don’t know what a telephone is or you don’t know what Facebook is."
¹I think that was directed at ReaderY above, but it applies equally to you.
The weird thing is, there are Internet services that are analogous to the telephone / telegraph: Gmail, Outlook, etc. And yet Texas's law doesn't apply to them!
It only applies to businesses that are doing something entirely different.
They don't discriminate like the social media companies do.
Often laws are designed to deal with a problem. If there isn't a problem, then laws aren't needed. We don't have laws dealing with specific details of property rights on Jupiter because there isn't an issue there (now). If there was in the future, we would need a law. .
The social media companies do no such thing. Also, did you miss the fake discrimination panic about gmail flagging more GOP fundraising emails as spam a few months ago?
Apologies. E-Mail providers to discriminate as badly as social media companies do.
And yes. They do. There's a reason Texas thought this law necessary.
"There’s a reason Texas thought this law necessary."
Political fuel for their idiot conservatives. Just because someone has a reason, doesn't mean it's a good one.
Facebook is generally semiprivate, with groups restricted to friends or friends of friends. In some cases, people have full public profiles, which are limited.
Telegraphs can be public. It merely requires the Telegraph to be publically posted (in the telegraph office, for example). Phone conversations likewise can be semi-private. Group phone calls or more for example.
More importantly, common carrier law typically applied to public corporations which were open to the public as a whole and everyone could view people being transmitted on it. Trains, carriages, steamships, etc. Private conveyances often weren't covered as much.
Armchair, it's hopeless. You know where you want to come out—government compulsion to force publishers to carry right wing advocacy, true or false—and you will keep making up crackpot analogies until you get there—which will be never.
Nige, did you get this bent out of shape when Freedom of Speech was used to cover
Burning a draft card
nude interpretive dancing
Crosses on the laws of black folk?
I suspect ole Nige thinks that proper regulation ignores what is "clearly" only clear to Nige
Facebook does have moderation by users.
Facebook at large is not an Internet forum. People post their stati. They can moderate the comments on their stati.
People and businesses and organization can create groups. They can moderate posts on groups, as well as comments on posts on groups.
> stati
The Latin word status is fourth-declension; its plural is status (or statūs, if you use the vowel length signifiers, though these are just a modern teaching tool).
However, we are speaking English, where the plural steadfastly remains statuses.
The first video presented at The Center for Renewing America is "Russ Vought On Steve Bannon's War Room."
What the hell happened to you, Prof. Volokh?
Also found at the Center For Renewing America:
Jeffrey Bossert Clark (any comments on him, Volokh Conspirators? . . . Volokh Conspirators? . . . . anyone? . . . anyone?)
Kash Patel (children's author, Trump toady, and avid insurrectionist)
Ken Cuccinelli (culture warrior and culture war loser)
Russ Vought ("Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned." Also, a Marjorie Taylor Greene fan.)
Mark Paoletta (Clarence and Ginni Thomas whisperer)
Adam Candeub, Center For Renewing America. Maybe should have omitted that "credential," Volokh Conspiracy?
Are they Oberlin alumni?
Not that I am aware. Just a bunch of obsolete, un-American culture war victims, vestigial bigots, and disaffected clingers.
Nothing happened.
The fact is that EV is a conservative Republican, and his posts and opinions will largely reflect that. He will occasionally, I suppose, deviate, especially on 1A issues, but by and large he is pretty clearly going to take the RW line whenever he can.
That's not to say he's a radical nutcase, like some of his fellows among the commenters, but he does seem to have a strong political affiliation.
You should not be surprised.
Prof. Candeub's "expert" report precipitated quite a motion to strike.
The court "[did] not rely on Candeub's report."
The Texas law would require the internet platforms' content-moderation policies to employ viewpoint-neutral criterion, ending censorship of conservatives and dissenters from the internet.
If that is a legitimate constitutional purpose for government, we need a new Constitution. That is a demand that government be given agency to put its entire weight on one side of the political scales. The nation's previous standard was government puts no weight on the scales, while others outside government contend for influence. The OP is literally saying that private political contention on the internet must be stifled, while government intervenes according to the preferences of officeholders and would-be office holders.
The big question here is: do you want the government dictating what can be carried on social media and also what material social media sites are required to host?
If you're a "conservative" who has bought into the notion that social media sites are "censoring" "conservative" viewpoints, and want to use the power of the state to "level the playing field", I suppose the answer is yes, you prefer the government to interfere with the free exchange of ideas.
I'm not in favor of either government censorship* or government compelled speech. YMMV,
*pardon the redundancy here but otherwise knowledgeable educated people are still laboring under the illusion that actors other than the government can engage in "censorship".
When the Biden administration armtwists social media companies into shutting up their political opponents, does that count as the government dictating what can be carried on social media?
I note that one is a first amendment problem that causes you no distress at all. Those stinky people that disagree with you shouldn’t have their speech heard anyway.
Now let’s make a list of THREATS TO DEMOCRACY!!!!! Does the president shutting up his political opponents make the list? Seems that it should, shouldn’t it?
Would you care to point out where I have advocated for the removal of Gab, or Truth Social, or the WSJ editoral page, or this forum, or 4Chan, or usenet, or any other electronic communication service where "those stinky people" that disagree with are free to post whatever crap they want?
I'm not a cheerleader for Facebook by any means, I just don't think the US government should be in the business of telling them, or any other social media site, that they have to carry material they find objectional. I also disagree with the recently enacted laws in Europe and California, so this is not a left v. right thing, it's a 1A thing.
clem, the point is that the US government is telling the social media companies to not carry material that the US government finds objectionable. It is absolutely a right vs left thing because the left is in power and is using their power to shut out their opponents.
If Trump was doing what Biden is doing you'd be shitting blue fire. But it's the bad guys getting screwed so it's fine.
Just out of curiosity, where do you get this idea that "..the US government is telling the social media companies to not carry material that the US government finds objectionable."?
cite please?
There were about 1000 emails between the administration and the SM companies that got into the public realm about a month ago. You can look ‘em up. What do you think the loopy almost Minister of Truth was hired to do?
They say they’re battling “misinformation” but that ain’t their place, besides which they define misinformation as “things we don’t agree with”.
Look, it’s your right to not care about that. Just don’t get all holier than thou on the 1st amendment while not caring about it.
"There were about 1000 emails between the administration and the SM companies that got into the public realm about a month ago. You can look ‘em up. "
So, "do the research". I get it.
Plonk.
Your Grace:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22123314-cdc-emails-with-big-tech
re: "cite please?"
Very recent article here. You'll have to drill through for the underlying studies and data.
"Jawboning" aka prominent public figures giving their opinion on questions of the day.
That's all you got?
That's certainly one way to interpret it. That's notably not the same way it was interpreted when Trump did the same things.
Personally, I do think there's a problem when government officials (of either party) say the equivalent of "nice company you've got here - shame if something should happen to it."
You mean like what DeSantis did with Disney World? Which was not merely statements that might be interpreted as veiled threats, but actual punitive measures in retaliation for criticism.
"Armtwists" is doing all the work in your question. Government employees are allowed to advocate and cajole private companies or individuals to take action; that presents no first amendment issues. Government employees are not allowed to coerce private companies or individuals to take action; that would indeed present a first amendment issue.
Viewed broadly, actors other than government can engage in censorship. The key distinction is that government censorship is constitutionally banned. Private censorship is not only legally allowed, but often—and in various contexts, including during employment and in publishing—encouraged as useful, except by fools.
Lathrop, that noise you just heard was the point flying right over your head.
Private entities can discriminate legally - in some circumstances. The point you are missing, Stephen, is that it is also constitutional for legislatures to say that private entities can not discriminate in certain circumstances. That's what public accommodation and common carrier laws are - statements by government that 'not only can't we discriminate on X basis, you can't either.'
"Private entities?" You think there is a, "Private entities," clause in the 1A?
That botched distinction would perhaps be useful to illustrate one kind of limitation on the Necessary and Proper Clause. Note that Congress is empowered to regulate under the commerce clause the activities of, for instance, hoteliers, because they are otherwise unremarkable practitioners of commerce. Alas, similar limitations on the activities of publishers are not permitted, because the Press Freedom clause singles publishers out for special protection.
Perhaps. But not when it comes to speech! Any such laws would be unconstitutional as applied.
Not when it comes to their own speech. Declining to carry the speech of others is, under current precedents, an action, not an inherent speech act.
If common carrier laws as applied to telephone, telegraph, mail, freight and other companies are constitutionally defensible, then so is this law. I'll happily listen if you want to argue that common carrier laws in general are (or should be) unconstitutional but the argument that 'social media is different' has not yet been successfully made.
Tell it to the Maynards. Tell it to the Miami Herald. Tell it to PG&E. Tell it to John J. Hurley and the South Boston Allied War Veterans.
States do have some authority to limit private censorship.
BSA v. Dale rather indicates otherwise.
Public accommodation laws and common carrier laws rather conclusively indicate that they do have some authority - BSA v Dale merely indicates that the authority didn't reach to there.
In what way do either public accommodation laws or common carrier laws indicate that states have any power to limit private "censorship"?
What DMN said. Expressive association is a lot more present in this case than electrical utilities.
Well, it was a legitimate purpose for government for several centuries in the context of mail, freight and carriage services, it was a legitimate purpose of government for almost a century and a half in the context of telegraph and telephone and it's been a legitimate purpose of government since 1964 in the context of "places of public accommodation. Despite that history, those entities were never and still are not blocked from ejecting or refusing to serve those who were truly abusive.
Your claim that it puts the "entire weight" of government on one side of the scales is simply wrong. Common carrier status is government saying (rightly or wrongly as a matter of policy but entirely legally) that corporations may put no weight on the scales either.
Sort of right, Rossami. But the Press Freedom Clause says private publishers, whether they are corporations or not, are an exception. Publishers do get to weight the scales. They are at liberty to put whatever weight on the scales it suits them to add.
Again, social media companies aren't publishers (except for the subset of posts they make in their own names).
Rossami, define what activities constitute publishing. Do not stop until you explain why the notion of joint responsibility for libel—shared by authors and publishers alike—has long been a just and appropriate feature of the law of libel as applied to traditional publishers. If you cannot do that, give up your argument.
You are assuming your conclusion.
Well, he isn't literally saying it because he didn't literally say that !!
Many of us see that you put in "conservatives and dissenters" because that is the label you put on all those you don't want to protect.
And really your lack of balance in saying "put its entire weight on one side of the political scales"' -- oh, and by the way, who in their right mind thinks the complexity of life is just one of two pans on a balance !!!
Can you be fair to gays , eg, and still say it is a perversion?
Can you be convinced that taking the life of the unborn is wrong and not be anti-woman?
Theis is you, Stephen, hoping the world will act just like you. But one day your Mosaic utterances will be censored (or worse) and the light will stream in.
The Left worries that the platforms will be less able to stifle views it finds dangerous and undesirable.
How does that pass muster as an academic contribution? How does it qualify as properly founded motivation for constitutional reasoning?
Supporters of the "common carrier" argument often cite telephone service and email as parallel examples. "...telephone companies must carry messages expressing all viewpoints..." in the article above for example.
But the telephone service providers do limit telemarketing "junk" calls (too little and way too late for my tastes, but they are doing something about it). Email service providers prevent spam from getting to your inbox, well most of it anyway. Something like 90% of email traffic is spam, and if there were no spam filters your inbox would be filled to the point of uselessness with all the crap messages.
So, even "common carriers" may limit what they allow, e.g. the post office, UPS, Fedex, etc. prohibit hazardous cargo.
What all common carries have in common, is that they are basically a commodity. The phone company connects you phone to another person's phone, and then gets out of the way. Your email provider transmits your message to the recipients and that's it. The post office takes your package and moves it from A to B. An airline picks you up at Airport A and drops you off at Airport B. Your ISP connects your computer to the internet. See the commonality here?
By contrast, social media sites are not commodities in this manner. Facebook is very different than YouTube. Twitter has little in common with TikTok. Instagram is nothing like Reddit. What they do have in common is they have all curated a relationship with their users that goes beyond simply transporting bits from one server to another. And it is this curated, bespoke experience that attracts and retains their users. The government coming in with a sledgehammer and saying "you must give your users content that they don't want to see" could well destroy the business model.
And if anyone is craving a completely unmoderated social media experience, usenet is still available.
And if anyone is craving a completely unmoderated social media experience, usenet is still available.
As are the comment threads to Reason's main-page stories.
I'm always surprised at the argument that conservative views are being suppressed. Besides being wrong - many popular accounts on YT are quite conservative, and the most shared FB posts are from folks like Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens - it ignores intentional moderation decisions that hamper leftist voices, such as Mother Jones. I understand that we have a victim culture these days, but that doesn't mean that everyone who claims to be a victim really is one.
Those channels are popular despite the suppression. There was a massive pressure campaign to deplatform Joe Rogan from Spotify and it might have worked if they hadn’t already invested so much in him. But conservatives are being dropped from using Paypal, Shopify, etc, Amazon refused to web host Parler, forcing them to find another platform. Google Play and the Apple app store block apps from conservative networks, etc. And even when they don’t drop them, YT, FB, and Twitter often cover posts with disclaimers or insert their “fact checks” below (which are frequently wrong). People have been banned from Reddit and Twitter just for saying “men aren’t women”.
IF you need citations for any of these, I can show you as many as you want. None of that happens to the political left on anything close to the same scale.
'Those channels are popular despite the suppression.'
Yes, ignore the reality, pay attention to the persecution fantasy.
'There was a massive pressure campaign to deplatform Joe Rogan from Spotify'
A lot of people exercised their freedom of speech to object to the content of his show, as is their right.
Granted some may turn out to be unfair, but being treated unfairly has never been confined exclusively to conservatives, and how many of the rest of your examples involved Nazis, fraud, toxic communities engaged in harassment, platforms that were either ridiculously insecure or designed to harvest users' data, and 'men can't be women' usually signals horrific transphobia of the sort that ends up with bomb threats to childrens' hospitals. Maybe conservatives need to stop identifying with that sort of thing and clean their own house.
"...‘men can’t be women’ usually signals horrific transphobia of the sort that ends up with bomb threats to childrens’ hospitals."
Usually? Your delusional fantasies are dangerous and, you should seek mental help.
Then you have a problem if you are ALWAYS surprised 🙂
Why !! it is so miraculous that you can see past a view to a motivating conservatism. I am thinking of several groups I know of that are anti-abortion. One is Pro-Life Democrats, the other is Secular Pro-life and the third is Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians.
And the foremost early opponent was the famous atheist Nat Hentoff. YOU are the perfect argument for why you are wrong.
I disagree that social media companies are common carriers. That's a premise that only makes sense if you're eager to reach a particular result.
I take strong issue with the characterization of opponents as "big tech supporters." That's a canard similar to claiming defense attorneys are pro-criminal. Supporting First Amendment protections to speech is not the same as supporting the speech or speaker. I'd personally like to see antitrust action against a number of tech companies, but not as retaliation for (or a result of) their moderation policies. That the professor felt it necessary to resort to ad hominem tells me that even he doesn't think his arguments are particularly strong.
Remember, Professor Volokh: If you agree with this essay then you are a supporter of every speaker and statement you've gone to the courts to protect. You can't support such characterizations of your opponents without accepting them for yourself.
I disagree that shadowbans have no expressive component, but I think they're problematic from a contractual perspective since they essentially modify the contract without notice.
Finally, I have to note that "criterion" should be "criteria." A forgivable mistake, but it indicates that this essay was fired from the hip and not to be taken too seriously.
The law of unintended consequences is at work here. The more rules and regulations the government imposes, and the more frivolous lawsuits this legislation spurs (and the Texas law is a litigation factory - anyone who posts anything that is in the opinion of the poster insufficiently promoted by the algorithm can take the site to court. i.e. every single moderation action is grounds for a suit.) the more it favors the large players with their team of attorneys.
Disfavoring this law is not the same as supporting "Big tech".
Except in your view of things, there is no place for Regulatory Capture. Those folks you mention are on BOTH sides. Look into it.
And as to the term 'large players' that are supposedly favored. The feds are the largest of all players.
Indeed, all other types of invisible content prioritizations lack the required expressiveness because users don’t know when content is promoted or hidden.
If Candeub had the first inkling how publishing works, he would never have uttered such nonsense. When publishers take steps to pre-assemble an audience for their offerings, “users,” remain unaware of those steps. When publishers choose to accept or reject content, to curate the audience, and thus make it especially attractive to would-be advertisers, “users,” remain in the dark about those steps. In fact, “users,” are so comprehensively in the dark—as is Candeub—that they are typically unaware that even the term, “users,” as applied to them, is a misnomer.
The actual users of internet platforms are typically advertisers, whose dollars make the entire information generating and dispersal function happen. The platform is the advertisers’/users’ tool. It is not the audiences’ tool. The attention of the audience is the raw material which the publisher mobilizes and curates to sell to the platform’s users.
Only in the case of a rare internet business model, where subscription fees pay for all content, and all the activity to disperse the content to consumers, does the term, “users,” properly apply to the information recipients. None of the major social media platforms operate that way.
Those distinctions are crucial, because unless you know which interests and activities you propose to affect, you cannot claim to understand what your proposal means. If your proposal is a proposal for legislation, then you cannot know what your proposed law means. Candeub appears not to know anything about what his advocacy means. Before he can begin to make sense, Candeub will have to learn how publishing works, and review the legal precedents on press freedom, with particular regard to the parts forbidding compelled speech.
“. . . state and local civil rights laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of political belief. . . .”
I noted recently that the federal Hate Crimes Act specifically does NOT address political beliefs.
Can anyone give an example of a state or local civil right law which prohibits discrimination on the basis of political belief (since Prof. Candeub didn’t although he [somehow!] managed to list many court cases)?
PS. ABSOLUTELY love the Edit function.
Prof Volokh wrote an entire article here on exactly this point not that long ago. (Long enough, however, that I can't quickly re-find it.)
California, New York and DC are three jurisdictions that I know about that explicitly protect employees on the basis of their political affiliations and activities. Oregon and Wisconsin have related (but very differently worded) laws. And many states have laws that explicitly protect employees from discrimination based on "legal activities outside of work" which can include political activities.
But those are all employment-related. Australia has a far broader law that forbids discrimination "in any area of public life" on the basis of politics.
Back to the US, I'm not aware of any states that have extended their public accommodation laws to political affiliation but there are a largish number of major cities which have done so. See, for example, Harford, Prince George's and Howard Counties in Maryland, Seattle in Washington Miami Beach, Ft Lauderdale and Broward Counties in Florida, etc.
In contrast, most platform acts of content moderation are not expressive under the Supreme Court tests. Most obviously, they are not expressive because most are never communicated and therefore cannot convey a message.
So newspapers have no 1A right to refuse to publish some letters to the editor, because that is not expressive?
Sounds like nonsense to me.
(Commenters on the Left have yet to square this view to their hostility to corporate First Amendment rights in Citizens United.)
This seems a little backwards. Citizens United is the law of the land, so the ones who would have to square their views of allowing censorship of corporations and/or requiring compelled speech by corporations with that case are those on the right clamoring to regulate the speech (or intended lack thereof) of corporations.
The obvious distinction for those who don't like Citizens United is that this law applies to social media speech rights at all times, whereas the issue in Citizens United was corporations engaged in "electioneering" (supporting a candidate or cause) with their corporate resources within 30 days of an election. The pro-Citizens United side would seem to have a harder time explaining why Congress cannot enact a limited regulation of speech by corporations near an election but states can regulate corporate speech of all types at all times, so long as it is a "social media" company. This is why those commenters, like this professor, usually try to say social media companies aren't engaged in expressive conduct when engaging in moderation. That's a stretch. The government cannot prevent a corporation from promoting and showing The Movie within 30 days of an election, but the government can require another corporation to show it on their social media platform every day, 24 hours a day? Makes no sense.
Eugene - I hate to trigger another asinine post where you seek to justify your clearly-not-objective standard for determining what viewpoints to share here, but it is not intellectually honest to present Candeub as providing "positive commentary," in contrast to the negative commentary previously linked.
The negative commentary was from independent experts in the field commenting on the Fifth Circuit's typically shoddy analysis. Candeub is personally and directly involved in this litigation, and wants the Fifth Circuit to accept his question-begging analysis. These are not just two perspectives on the same opinion.
Prof. Volokh is doing the best he can with the crappy hand he has been dealt.
Actually, he chooses that hand.
Anyway, Prof. Volokh is doing the best he can to try to improve the prospects of his partisan, result-driven polemics with a scant academic veneer.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your stale, ugly, unpopular thinking could carry anyone at the modern American marketplace of ideas.
How has Oberlin College fared?
Still part of the winning side of the culture war, the right side of history, and the better side of humanity . . . the glorious, victorious liberal-libertarian mainstream, shaping American progress (against the wishes and efforts of Republicans, racists, conservatives, xenophobes, the Federalist Society, gay-bashers, the Volokh Conspiracy, the religious right, Stormfront, and immigrant-haters for so long as nearly all of us have been alive.
How are Trump, QAnon, Rudy Giuliani, Mike Lindell, Steve Bannon, and Josh Blackman's academic career doing these days?
Having read the opinion, I agree with it.
My primary reason for agreement was that the challenge before the 5th Circuit was a facial 1st Amendment pre-enforcement challenge. Facial challenges require a heavy burden to be met by the challenger. Plaintiffs have not met that burden.
That's the first intelligent thing I've read supporting the ruling.
Facial challenges do require a heavy burden on the part of the plaintiffs, and if the 5th had stopped there, I would have some respect for the ruling, but they went way beyond that.
Of course, the 11th circuit thought the plaintiffs met that standard in their challenge to the similar Florida law, as did the Supreme Court when they batted it back to the 5th.
Two examples.
1. John owns the port’s only wharf. He sets it up as a boat show, curated to display beautiful boats. Ugly boats are not permitted to dock.
2. The Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc., is an organization that curates based on philosophical enlightenment, with a philosop. Enlightened people are permitted to stay, and those who live in darkness are not. Consistent with its belief that enlightenment is not merely a purely mental concept but is sensible aesthetically, those who appear enlightened are considered to represent enlightenment.
My thought here is that in both examples, people are using a classic common carrier to serve an expressive function. The question is, does the existence of an expressive use, even an expressive one, mean the First Amendment controls and trumps common carrier doctrine? Or does the state get to say that if you own the town’s only wharf or inn, you have to use it as a classic common carrier business, and you don’t get to decide to use it solely for purposes personal self-expression?
I think the common carrier doctrine permits the latter. If you own the town’s only wharf, and a lot of people in town depend on it, the town can force you to use it as a wharf, and impose common carrier oboigations on you. You don’t necessarIly get to curate the boats and call it a museum or boat show.
And it doesn’t matter if you think curating boats (or pursuing enlightenment) is the real core of what you really do. The staste gets to decide for itself what it thinks you really do, and base its decision on how others see you, which may be different from the way you see yourself. Bottom line is if you control common carrier infrastructure and use it for a business, you can be required to conform your business to common carrier requirements.
What you think your real business is, the way you’d like to use the resource, simply doesn’t matter. What matters is the extent to which the public needs and relies on the resource you control.
Let's take twitter for an example. It's the 17th most popular social media site. How is it remotely similar to the town's only wharf?
The fact remains that there are literally thousands of places to express your opinions on line, including over 100,000 usenet newsgroups. NOBODY has anything approaching a monopoly on social media.
But if Twitter is the site with the material you have to reply to, then 17th is irrelevant. It isn't about expressing your opinion, it is about any given opinion on any given site being given the protection of that site against other users. You are here on Reason's site, you could go to Quora and reproduce whatever opinion on here you want to rebut. However, that does nothing to contribute to free discussion does it.
Who gave those people the whole Arpanet technology and backbone?
and if this is so pervasive, why did you have to make up your two examples?
If you own the town's only wharf, that town's zoning and permitting and regulating authorities gave you that and nobody else.
Yet I agree that what matters is the extent to which the public needs and relies, etc.
It is a progressive position, going back to Teddy Roosevelt, that companies that are too big or dominant wield levels of power rightfully reserved for the people via democracy.
In all other cases, they scream themselves purple when such a company dominates a market at this level.
Here, they are, curiously fine with it. And republicans, curiously, not.
Let's do a thought experiment with the situation revOH MY GOD DEMOCRATS STOP SCREAMING. Market place is free.
Etc. Sigh
Normally progressive impulse is to get in the way of business. Class warfare. Monopoly. Now environmental patter. Sacred burial grounds. Whatever works. Then something happens, and business continues. Lawyers and politicians buy yachts.
So why not in this case? Because this is silencing of their political opponents, and power is the name of the game so you can be corrupt. Therefore abandon the former principle here, and adopt the opposite, as it is more useful to achieving and maintaining the power the corruption needs.
Krayt, I have been among this blog's strongest critics of the giantistic social media platforms. I have steadfastly, for years, urged public policies that would result in replacing those with a diverse and profuse marketplace of smaller private publishers, contending against each other in a free market of ideas. The point was two-fold: to suggest a way to insure publishing access for all points of view; and to protect the publishing process from government interference.
For those efforts, until recently, I got back noting except excoriation, mostly from self-described conservatives. Of course that included invective against my presumed progressivism, and worse. I don't think I have any place in that picture you paint of cynical progressives.
Whether or not I am actually a progressive I would not attempt to say. I have been a pretty steadfast opponent, with but few exceptions, of more-recent movement conservatism.
You want to claim there's a monopoly here? Go for it- it'll take some tweaks to current antitrust, but I'm pretty sure the left won't say boo if you go after big tech.
But that's not what's happening here. There is a well-defined remedy for monopolistic practices. This law doesn't do that, or anything like it.
So don't pretend this is any kind of liberal hypocricy. This law isn't about that, it's about no one wants to play with some vile assholes, and the right long ago decided to champion the asshole cause, so here you are.
You love those abstracts. Progressives, democracy, republicans, Democrats -- but that undoes your whole argument. Political opponents are not equatable to any abstract position.
What do you make of the following very anti-abortion groups? are they liberal, conservative, religious --what?
Democrats for Life
Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians
Secular Pro-Life.
It is about opinions and NOT AT ALL about who holds the opinion and why. This is why at the American Founding almost all the important polemics were done anonymously. The Supreme Court slapped down Kamala Harris on this very point, when she tried to force into the open all supporters of causes she didn't approve of. .
"It is a progressive position, going back to Teddy Roosevelt, that companies that are too big or dominant wield levels of power rightfully reserved for the people via democracy.
In all other cases, they scream themselves purple when such a company dominates a market at this level."
The thing is, no company "dominates the market" for free exchange of ideas. Microsoft may dominate the OS market (for some devices). Google and Apple have a duolopy on OS for mobile devices. Comcast and Charter have the high-speed internet market cornered. We have three mobile phone networks in the US. Decrying these as "dominating the market" makes some sense.
But that's not what's being debated here. There are hundreds of thousands of places to upload your text, photos, videos, audio files, etc. where others can see them. Nobody is stopping you. Oh, you want to piggyback on some specific service that has built a large audience by careful curation and moderation algorithms so that you reach a large audience? And you want the government to require them to let you piggyback on them? Well, you have the right to free speech, but you don't have the right to force others to promote it.
You won't get much of an argument from me against applying anti-trust laws to the entities above that truly dominate the market. Facebook may be big, and there may be an argument for anti-trust action when, say, they buy Instagram. But they're hardly the only game in town.
Before the internet was a thing, my local drugstore allowed anyone who asked to tape a 3x5 card to their front window for a week or so. It was mostly things like bicycles for sale, lost pets, piano recitals, bake sales, etc. People would stop to read the cards, and often would go inside to buy something. Their "guidelines" were as you'd expect: no commercial ads, be polite, it's our store so we don't have to post everything you want.
Modern social media companies are the kind of the same thing. They are NOT in the business of providing communication between people, they are in the business of making money from people who look to see what others have posted, usually by selling ads to show to them. They know that if the posted messages (or ads) are irrelevant, spam, or disgusting, people will stop coming by and their profits will drop.
In general, they DON'T CARE about the viewpoint expressed. They just want people to be polite to avoid ruining the experience for everyone else. And it's their store: they don't have to post everything, and they can sort things however they want. If some posts are becoming rude, argumentative, or actively disliked, that affects their profits and they want it to stop.
I haven't shopped in a physical supermarket in years, but back when I did, they used to have bulletin boards to serve the same function.
Conservatives (and libertarians) are usually first in line to defend companies' right to contract as they choose. Every Twitter user, etc. agrees to abide by terms and conditions of use. Those terms allow the platform to ban, respond, or adjust messages in its discretion.
The interesting question is why conservative Texas politicians feel that kind of contract should be effectively illegal. If the answer is that they don't like the corporate views, that strongly suggests it violates the 1A. The boring legal question is whether government interference with a company's contractual right to moderate users' speech is itself a burden on the company's expression. Obviously, it is. But the constitutional contortions required to say "no" will have worse ripple effects than the Texas law itself.
I'll bet you couldn't make that argument in the abstract; it depends entirely on you using very specific people so as to blind any objectivity.
I don't care who is usually first in line. And it is beyond belief that every conservative Texas politician thinks the same. That contractual right originates with the very people you are dissing. Maybe, just maybe, the route to take is in litigating the cases of the few "conservatives' that Google, YouTube, Twitter et al terminates employment for their views. But I cannot believe that you think these platforms represent mainstream America in any way. You can publish your own slanted views very effectively by just sieving and categorizing the many views that enter your platform
Query then: Does Trump's "Truth Social" moderate or censor accounts/posts critical of Trump? Or critical of conservatives in general?
Someone create an account, post a long screed supporting Obama and Hillary and let's see what happens.
I yhink we’re past that argument. The Atlanta Motel had to let black skin come into contact with its very own nice white sheets. Its sheets.
Our constitution simply isn’t a strictly libertarian one. The Constitution permits states to regulate people’s business use of their private property. And one of the generally accepted permissable forms of regulation is non-discrimation and common carrier requirements.
Such laws may be bad policy. Strict libertarianism would certainly call them bad policy. But the constituion doesn’t institute strict libertarianism.
Running a hotel is not speech.
Now, perhaps social media sites are places of public accommodations subject to the relevant laws against discrimination. It's not clear whether they are (Can Gab have a "NO JEWS" policy?) but if they are it's a completely different legal argument then the 1A grounds.
That's been done in the very first days, and it went exactly how one would expect it to:
https://www.engadget.com/trumps-free-speech-app-truth-social-is-censoring-content-and-kicking-off-users-023153584.html
Here are examples for you:
https://reason.com/2022/09/01/these-emails-show-how-the-biden-administrations-crusade-against-misinformation-imposes-censorship-by-proxy/
https://www.foxnews.com/media/journalist-glenn-greenwald-scorches-unholy-alliance-government-democrats-corporate-media-big-tech