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Eleventh Circuit Grants Stay of Trial Court Order Blocking Access to Mar-a-Lago Documents
An appellate panel thoroughly dismantles Judge Cannon's order blocking Department of Justice access to documents President Trump kept at Mar-a-Lago.
This afternoon the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit granted the Department of Justice's request for a partial stay of the lower court order that had temporarily blocked the Department from analyzing and investigating documents seized from former President Donald Trump's residence at Mar-a-Lago.
The 29-page per curiam opinion on behalf of Judges Rosenbaum, Grant, and Brasher thoroughly rejects the bases upon which Judge Cannon had granted Trump's request to block Justice Department access and to appoint a special master. (For those who care about such things, two of the judges were appointed by Trump, and one was appointed by Obama.)
The opinion begins:
Following the execution of a search warrant at the residence of Plaintiff-Appellee, former President Donald J. Trump, Plaintiff moved for the appointment of a special master to review the documents that Defendant-Appellant United States of America seized. The district court granted that motion in substantial part. Now, the United States moves for a partial stay of the district court's order as it relates to the roughly one-hundred documents bearing classification markings. We decide only the narrow question presented: whether the United States has established that it is entitled to a stay of the district court's order, to the extent that it (1) requires the government to submit for the special master's review the documents with classification markings and (2) enjoins the United States from using that subset of documents in a criminal investigation. We conclude that it has.
Among other things, the court explained why former President Trump has no meaningful claim to the documents in question, whether or not (as some have suggested) Trump may have declassified some of the documents.
For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings. Classified documents are marked to show they are classified, for instance, with their classification level. Classified National Security Information, Exec. Order No. 13,526, § 1.6, 3 C.F.R. 298, 301 (2009 Comp.), reprinted in 50 U.S.C. § 3161 app. at 290–301. They are "owned by, produced by or for, or . . . under the control of the United States Government." Id. § 1.1. And they include information the "unauthorized disclosure [of which] could reasonably be expected to cause identifiable or describable damage to the national security." Id. § 1.4. For this reason, a person may have access to classified information only if, among other requirements, he "has a need-to-know the information." Id. § 4.1(a)(3). This requirement pertains equally to former Presidents, unless the current administration, in its discretion, chooses to waive that requirement. Id. § 4.4(3).
Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.
Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
The panel also rejected the claim that the threat of future prosecution could constitute "irreparable harm" for purposes of an injunction.
No doubt the threat of prosecution can weigh heavily on the mind of someone under investigation. But without diminishing the seriousness of that burden, "if the mere threat of prosecution were allowed to constitute irreparable harm . . . every potential defendant could point to the same harm and invoke the equitable powers of the district court." United States v. Search of Law Office, Residence, and Storage Unit Alan Brown, 341 F.3d 404, 415 (5th Cir. 2003) (quotation omitted). If this concern were sufficient to constitute irreparable harm, courts' "exercise of [their] equitable jurisdiction would not be extraordinary, but instead quite ordinary." Id.
Overall, the opinion is quite thorough, and demonstrates why the district court completely bollixed this case.
We will see whether Trump tries to take this to the Supreme Court. I doubt any such filing will produce a different result (and would be quite surprised were the Supreme Court to respond quickly enough to matter).
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Kevin Rowland, Kevin Archer, Jim Paterson, and Billy Adams expressed sentiments strikingly similar to the Eleventh Circuit panel's view of Judge Cannon's handiwork decades ago.
And more than once.
A thoroughly readable opinion.
It's worthy of notice that the 11th Cir. didn't find that *any* equitable factors were in Trump's favor - this wasn't a close case for the court of appeals. I'd be fairly shocked if the S.Ct. re-imposed the injunction on DOJ.
Oh, it was as thorough a bench slap of a district court judge as it's possible for there to be. She got every single thing wrong. Every. Single. Thing. (The one equitable factor she analyzed correctly, she just ignored, even though the caselaw says that it was dispositive.)
They went out of their way to mock her, in a judicial way, pointing out that she decided to treat Trump's motion as if it were a 41(g) motion even though he expressly said it wasn't.
100 documents had classification markings? That's curious, because we were told this "case" was all about classified documents, yet the government seized more than 11,000 documents in total. The government seized Trump's clothing too. Perhaps it thought Trump's shirts were presidential records.
So, reading the excerpts, as the link does not work, this partial stay applies to 100 documents but does not apply to another 11,000 documents. What a stinging rebuke of the trial judge.
Trump voluntarily returned 15 boxes last year, which also contained personal items. IOW, Trump can’t find any self respecting lawyers who examine what he does and what he does and does not turn over.
Non seq.
Did you plagiarize that from Trump's "many people are saying"? No, you were not told that. In fact, you were told repeatedly — as the 11th circuit just noted — that classification was not even relevant, as none of the crimes that were the basis for the search warrant turned on classification.
It was everything the government was asking for, and it completely demolished Cannon's (non)reasoning, so yes, it was a stinging rebuke.
Again, the quote was:
As Wolf says, Adler's link is broken. Does this ruling in fact apply only to the marked-classified documents?
OK, a corrected link is supplied below. So this is Indeed a big nothingburger.
I see no obvious reason why the DOJ should be limited in its access to government documents, marked classified or not. The opinion continually conflates marked-classified with properly and actually classified, but one does not expect careful and unbiased judges and one is IMHO not getting anything unexpected here.
The Richey analysis seems mostly an extended exercise in strawman-beating. If, as the opinion claims, "No party contests the district court’s finding... that Plaintiff did not show
that the United States acted in callous disregard of his constitutional rights" then I see no virtue in beating a dead horse "for the sake of completeness". But I don't find this claim credible. I would be greatly amazed if Trump has not claimed exactly that.
1) The "case" was about the return of all government records, including those with classification markings*, which the former President's lawyer asserted had all been returned prior to the raid.
2) The government seized objects being stored along with the documents. To the extent that this may or may not be a criminal case, those items could be relevant to demonstrating whether Trump was likely aware that he still had these documents vs. them being off in some storage closet somewhere.
3) The request for a stay only dealt with the classified* documents, and part of the reasoning that the circuit court cites has to do with the intermixing of national security and criminal investigations- some of which, they said, and the court accepted- is intermixed in procedure. This makes sense, given that there may be additional criminal implications if the information was compromised or illegally accessed, which would be something you'd want to determine as part of the national security investigation. So yes, the stay only related to the classified documents, because that's all the government asked for.
*The court notes that a) at this stage, in the civil case that this currently is, Trump would need to assert that he declassified the documents if he wants them treated as such, and b) that whether or not he did is actually irrelevant, because the subpoena was for documents with classification markings, which the 100 or so documents do have.
The appeals court goes item by item through the analysis, demonstrates why the district court judge's analysis of these issues was wrong, except for the one issue where she was right but which should have counted against her issuing the order she did. Appeals courts don't regularly bother with 30 page rebukes of district courts, complete with borderline snarky footnotes about the district court's analysis, unless they think the district court did something particularly foolish.
1) As I understand it the residence already included an approved Library of Congress "annex" and your declaration that Trump was (ridiculously and uniquely) demanded to "return.. all government records" is false.
2)The DOJ motion in question related only to the documents marked classified. So they decided on a nothingburger skirmish? Desperate for a small win, are they?
"[T]his partial stay applies to 100 documents but does not apply to another 11,000 documents. What a stinging rebuke of the trial judge."
Pay attention now. The Department of Justice sought a stay only as to the 100 or so documents bearing classification markings. DOJ obtained every bit of relief that it sought from the Court of Appeals.
And the Court of Appeals eviscerated every single legal conclusion the District Judge reached in her decision. According to the 11th Circuit, and most of the rest of the legal world, her order was not just wrong, it was embarrassingly wrong.
we were told this “case” was all about classified documents
Not if you read any of the discussions about the case on this blog!
Which you seemed to be commenting on, but I guess didn't retain?
He said nothing about what YOU "told" him, so stop the strawman-beating. You look ridiculous engaging in it.
The link to the opinion does not work.
For now, it's available at https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000
Thank you.
Obama, unlike Trump, took millions, not thousands of documents from the White House when his presidency ended, ostensibly to be digitized for the Obama Presidential Library. To date, none have been digitized. He, like Trump, negotiated with the NARA over time about the return of documents. In a letter dated September 11, 2018, nearly two years after his presidency had ended, the Obama Foundation sent a letter to the NARA admitting its possession of classified documents.
Notably, the Trump Justice Department did not conduct any midnight raids to retrieve the documents (and anything else it felt like grabbing). Yeah, yeah, I know, that was different because reasons. Two-tiered justice.
https://www.obama.org/wp-content/uploads/BOF-NARA-LOI.pdf
You've been told repeatedly that your interpretation of events is based on a misunderstanding.
From the National Archives, in 2019, explaining what you don't get:
Presidential Libraries, like their holdings, belong to the American people without regard for political considerations or affiliations. Currently the Obama presidential materials are housed in a temporary facility in Hoffman Estates, IL, which is not open to the public.
Obama presidential records are administered in accordance with the requirements of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and will not be subject to public Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests until January 20, 2022.
Obama didn't take the documents. He coordinated with the National Archives to have the National Archives hold them for his presidential library. They were not in a basement open to the public.
You've been told this often enough that, at this point, you are just lying.
I'm not sure how classified documents in a warehouse are less of a national security threat than some in Trump's home where he is protected by Secret Service agents, but, as I noted, I knew it was different because reasons
Orange man bad!
By home you mean club where he has all sorts of different people all the time?
Also Idk why Trump defenders keep saying “orange man bad.” All that does is remind people that Trump 1) is in fact a bad man by most measures moral or otherwise, and 2) is in fact bright orange.
We know that Obama can commit no wrong. We know that Hillary and Bill can commit no wrong. Why? Because they are all Ivy League lawyers and are positively loved by the DOJ bureaucracy. There are two standards of justice in this country, one for the inner party and one for the rest of us.
I’m not sure how classified documents in a warehouse are less of a national security threat than some in Trump’s home
That's because you are an retarded.
Where do you think classified documents get stored? Fort Knox? Wherehouses can be secure. National Archives wherehouses designed for classified document storage are not a national security threat. Moron.
I am also apparently retarded! They even gave us an edit button.
Take your Ritalin, kid, and calm down.
The "wherehouse" in question, MENSA, is a shuttered furniture store in a strip mall leased by the Obama Foundation. I hope they pay the rent so all those super-secure documents don't end up on Storage Wars.
https://www.wbez.org/stories/whats-that-building-why-this-hoffman-estates-warehouse-stores-barack-obamas-presidential-papers/403ad644-8934-4ee6-85d9-97812af484e6
NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area.
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
Obama's letter concerning this:
"7. The Obama Foundation agrees to transfer up to three million three hundred thousand dollars ($3,300,000) to the National Archives Trust Fund (NATF) to support the move of classified and unclassified Obama Presidential records and artifacts from Hoffman Estates to MARA-controlled facilities that conform to the agency's archival storage standards for such records and artifacts, and for the modification of such spaces."
Hoffman estates being the above mentioned shuttered furniture store...
So, yes, once they were in NARA's hands the classified and unclassified documents were treated differently. In Obama's hands? Abandoned mall.
They. Aren't. In. Obama's. Hands.
It wasn't 'Obama's hands' it was a temporary NARA facility.
Just liars, the lot of you Trump supporters. I guess I should have assumed that a man with no shame would attract apologists with no shame.
Be better.
You're lying again. It's leased by NARA, not the Obama Foundation.
https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20220803/hoffman-estates-allows-obama-library-archives-to-stay-for-four-more-years
FD Wolf is a whore. A moral and intellectual whore. So, I would not bother wasting the online ink rebutting his/her bitching and whining. A waste of your time and effort . . . he/she is fact-resistant, which is a necessary quality for any advocate of Trump by this point.
Yes, in santamonica811 world he would control the mute button to save you from having to read whorish thoughts from whoring whores.
I don't have time to argue with unreasonable people. Also, I prefer a dialectic to a debate. I will gladly admit when I make errors; we all need help in getting our facts ironed out. But just because I misremember some details does not mean that the rest of my argument is without merit. And, just because someone else is merely human and makes similar mistakes does not mean that there arguments are without merit.
I am willing to help my opponents perfect their arguments so that we can get to the heart of the issues and really discuss them.
F.D. Wolf has been told repeatedly, with links, that what he's saying is a lie. He has no interest in a dialectic. He just spams lies that he knows are lies.
I'm not seeing the actual disagreement between what FD Wolf posted and what NOVA Lawyer posted.
Obama took documents, and still had classified documents 2 years later, but he sorted things out with NARA.
Trump took documents, and 1.9 years later was raided by the FBI.
Seems like having some documents is pretty standard.
Obama didn't take documents.
Are you having reading comprehension problems again? Obama never had any of the documents. NARA had them the whole time. Obama is covering costs, that's it.
Of course, the facts will never sink in with you trumptards since you're all blinded by the orange light. But it is fun to pants you in front of the world.
Reread the two comments I was responding to, and check your own reading comprehension.
After reading more comments, I now see the claim is that even at the time of the Obama letter, "Obama" didn't really have any documents. NARA supposedly had sole access and control all along. Fair enough. That sentence from the Obama letter definitely implied otherwise. I guess that's why people are singling it out.
None of this was actually explained in NOVA Lawyer's inapt comment. The 2019 NARA statement does not really contradict the implication people are taking from the 2018 letter. On a closer reading, it does state that the documents are still at "Hoffman Estates" and obviously they are cool with it, but doesn't go into anything about who put it there or who has access or control.
Anyway, seems like a lot of fuss over nothing. The raid on Trump probably has nothing to do with proper handling and storage of documents, it is about the J6 investigation and Trump trying to challenge the election results, etc. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-trump-white-house-lawyer-ty-cobb-trump-investigation-jan-6-the-takeout-podcast/
There were empty folders marked "classified".
I think there's very legitimate concern both about whom he was showing those documents to and about what happened to the documents that went missing.
Wow that's quite a pivot! I like it!
The raid on Trump probably has nothing to do with proper handling and storage of documents, it is about the J6 investigation and Trump trying to challenge the election results, etc.
Or in other words,
So I was wrong about one part of the conspiracy, but that's ok because the conspiracy itself is self-evident, so rebuttal of any one piece of it has no impact on the whole.
It's a beautiful, perfectly protected cocoon for a thriving cult mind to live inside of.
I am curious about Presidential libraries and what are the responsibilities of an ex-President. My reading of history tells me that many past Presidents donated their papers to Universities, and I am not sure when the Presidential Libraries started. I have only visited one Presidential Library, Kennedy's. My sense is that Presidential Libraries are not public works and I have been solicited for money for several Presidential Libraries. I also suspect Presidents and their supporter are looking to shape the narrative of the Presidency. So here the question are former Presidents required to build a library or to donate papers to a university. If a former President say I have better things to do will the NARA just warehouse the papers in Washington, DC?
In reverse order…
“If a former President say I have better things to do will the NARA just warehouse the papers in Washington, DC?”
Yes and No.
Yes, a former president has no legally mandated duty to do anything at all with such records created during his/her administration, which are the full, 100% property of the U.S government, not of the former president. So, for example, tfg could just go play golf the rest of his life and never give a further thought to piddling things like history or self-aggrandizement.
In such cases (yeah, right) NARA will cooperate with universities and researchers to catalog, organize, and make such records available for research and other purposes, as they do with all government historical records, to the degree of the interest in different types of records.
“So here the question are former Presidents required to build a library or to donate papers to a university[?]”
No. First, a president does not own those records so has no ability to donate them. The Presidential Records Act (PRA), although primarily concerned with defining what constitutes Presidential Records (PR) versus personal private records, and the specifics of how these government records must be captured and preserved, also enables the creation of privately-funded, non-profit presidential libraries as a public-private partnership.
It lays out rights and responsibilities of a former president and of the government, and authorizes substantial government funding (equivalent to what NARA would spend if a former president declined involvement). It sets standards for how such libraries qualify for this funding, including a formation of a non-profit foundation (with strong financial controls and visibility requirements) not under full control of the former president, and mandates availability of PR—again, the government’s property—to qualified researchers and the public.
Although most presidents-emeritus (a term I just made up) find it useful to partner with a University, that is not a requirement. But it does help with fundraising needs, which are substantial, and a sense of gravitas.
And yes, your sense is, of course, correct. Most ex-presidents do want to influence how history views them and to the degree the PRA permits (i.e. ex-pres can’t veto availability of unfavored records), will do their best to present the most favorable narrative.
If you’re interested, you really should review the PRA, visit the web sites of some the libraries, and read commentary on the controversies associated with each (and there are always controversies). To date, ex-pres Trump has taken no actions under to PRA to advance a Trump Presidential Library. Due to the PRA’s requirements for open financing and operation, some say it is unlikely he ever will.
Seems to me I recall the Clintons looting the Oval Office of all sorts of valuables. And, no, we don't know that "Obama didn’t take the documents." Trump didn't take "the" documents either. He had some, and I bet Clinton and Obama took some as well. But Bush and Trump were too much pussies to harass them properly.
No he didn’t. Five minutes on google was enough to show that Obama did no such thing and this is just another self serving Trump lie. The National Archives put out a statement that it has all the Obama docs and Obama has no access to them. Obama should sue Trump for defamation.
Five minutes on Google tells you that Obama has no access to the Obama Library?
Does the National Archives have all the Clinton docs she wiped off her servers, too?
You are a ridiculous idiot.
You’re right about a two tiered justice system, but not in the way you think. Contrary to your assertion that it was a “midnight raid” it was actually at 9:00 am after advance warning, subpoenas, meetings and negotiations. The search had attorneys present. Most searches aren’t like that. And then after all that trump actually manages to get a district judge to go out of her way to accommodate him even making arguments and factual assertions for him. And part of the reasoning for relief was that Trump has some kind of unique status as a former president. Think that happens to anyone else?
So there are two tiers of the justice system. Only Trump is actually in the top one for special people.
I'm not a LOL kind of guy, but you do realize the "Hoffman Estates" you refer to was a NARA temporary facility in that suburban Chicago village? The Letter of Intent you quote was about funding the logistics of moving and digitizing all those pages, in prep for making them available in the Obama Presidential Library.
Perhaps NARA's actual statement would help:
That's pretty good cover the NARA is offering Obama, but why would they move documents to a "NARA facility" that doesn't meet NARA standards for nearly two years? And why would the Obama Foundation claim there were classified documents there when the NARA statement says there were only unclassified documents.
Oh, never mind. When it comes to Trump, the government bureaucracy has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt. I'll take them at their word.
Ha ha lol. Never mind is right. You've got nothing but your self-fulfilling cult fantasies.
"when the NARA statement says there were only unclassified documents."
It doesn't, you know, if you parse it carefully. It speaks to the disposition of unclassified records, but doesn't say there weren't any classified ones.
I can't find a way to parse it that way.
But even if you could, so? Who cares if the classified documents are stored in a NARA facility in Chicago vs a NARA facility in Washington DC? Your and FD's characterization of the Chicago one as an abandoned furniture store is totally meaningless.
It very clearly says that "NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area."
"NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area."
Illinois isn't "in the Washington, DC, area" by any stretch of the imagination.
Just to sum up the emotional comments from the leftist hive mind:
Classified documents stored at Trump's residence protected by the Secret Service = grave threat to national security
Classified documents stored at abandoned furniture store leased by Obama Foundation = no problem.
Basically, yep. I like how you think the Secret Service somehow plays a role in stolen document storage. It's cute!
Wow.
So you are told a number of different ways you are wrong.
And your response is to repeat yourself, only shorter and more reductive.
It's like selective illiteracy or something.
OK, Trump-traitor. You do realise all these comments form a public record of your support for treason, don't you? It's baffling to me that you lot are willing to commit crimes on the record. Your crooked orange leader knows better than that, so why don't you?
Come on, this is embarrassing.
Commenting dumbly on an Internet message board is not a crime, and never will be.
OK, just to sum up, every source FDW cites was clear in describing handling and movement of Obama presidential records (PR), only by NARA, among NARA facilities (including a temporary leased building intended for initial consolidation of PR in the Chicago area pending final archival storage decisions) in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA).
In the alt-right circles F.D. inhabits, a snippet of text pops up containing the word “classified” and from that one word, a whole fantasy of Obama malfeasance worse than Trump’s! …is created from nothingness.
F.D. knows that snippet is from a Letter of Intent, documenting the result of initial discussions between NARA and the Obama Presidential Library Foundation solely concerning how the Foundation will fund NARA activities supporting eventual availability of Obama PR in the presidential library currently under construction in South Chicago, per the PRA.
Yet using truly Trumpian reasoning abilities, F.D. keeps repeating a mantra of Obama did worse than Trump because, what, by repetition, if you think it in your mind, it’s true?
OK, just to sum up, that’s a wrap.
No. He. Didn't. He. Took. None. Please. Stop. Lying.
Why on earth did you cite something that says that the Obama Foundation will give money to the archives and pretend that it said that the Obama Foundation would give documents to the archives?
(For the avoidance of doubt, "Hoffman Estates" is the location of a temporary facility operated by NARA; it is not owned by Obama.)
Also notably, there were no “midnight raids” of Mar-a-Lago.
Yet.
Now you have me singing:
DC proved too much for the man
So he's leavin' the life he's come to know
He said he's goin' back to find
What's left of his world
The world he left behind not so long ago
He's leaving on that midnight train to 'Lago…
The next verse should go "midnight raid on 'Lago".
Obama Presidential Library is not Obama's personal property. He does not single-handedly control things stored there.
Doesn't mean raiding Trump's private buildings was well-advised, but there is a meaningful difference between the two situations.
Given the strength of the 11th Circuit’s findings, DoJ may decide to drop the part of their appeal disputing the need for a Special Master, and let the SM review of the other 11,000 items continue.
They’re confident about the work of their filter team so not at all concerned about the results. They’re not planning on any further public actions until after the mid-term elections and will continue with all necessary investigative actions in the meantime (and indictment writing?), so SM review won’t delay anything.
And Donald Trump is going to have to pay every penny of all the expenses involved…including hourly rates of everyone involved in the several weeks of the review, and the procurement of the dedicated legal document review software to be used (Relativity?)…and neither Judge Dearie nor the software come cheap
I get your logic. But my limited understanding is that the DOJ is *really* unhappy with the judge's decision, and really does not want it to stand as even the weakest sort of precedent. I think DOJ wants a federal appellate court (or even SCOTUS) to kill her decision(s), and to then drive a stake through the decision's heart.
Right. But permitting the Special Master to do his work is politically beneficial to the DOJ as already seen by how Trump has reacted to "you can't have your cake and eat it too."
I imagine that they can work it out so that the appeal takes until after November, by which time the Special Master will already have delivered his slap across Trump's face. The DoJ can have their cake and eat it too.
I don't imagine they're greatly concerned about a Special Master at this point. Their taint team has already had plenty of time to snap pictures of everything they went through, so we're well into barn door and horses territory at this point.
Brett immediately assuming bad faith on the part of anyone who isn't a Trump lickspittle. This says something about you, Brett.
An alternative explanation: The classified documents are the heart of the matter, and to which they now have access, and they are confident their taint team did a good job, so aren't worried the Special Master will find anything or come to different conclusions than they did.
I reflexively assume bad faith on the part of the FBI because I'm 63 and haven't been living in a cave. I'm quite sure some of that bad faith gets pointed at Democrats, too.
Brett reflexively assumes bad faith on the part of everyone.
Correct. In particular, the notion that a non-president like Trump has any possibility of a right to assert any sort of "executive privilege" against the actual president is a terrible precedent that they won't want to let stand.
And the notion that the target of a DOJ investigation can get any sort of injunction against said investigation.
(Although, given the completeness of the 11th circuit's benchslap of Cannon yesterday, only an idiot lawyer would try to cite Cannon's ruling as any sort of precedent in any other proceeding.)
I guess we need to question when exactly did the executive privilege come into being for these documents. If the documents were created during Trump's administration, then I assume he can assert executive privilege regarding those documents even after he is no longer in office. A successor president should not be able to waive a predecessor president's privilege...otherwise, the privilege does not exist.
"...question when exactly did the executive privilege come into being..."
I believe the term of art for what you're doing is "assumes facts not supported by evidence placed before the court." To be clear, Team Trump has entered nothing into the proceedings of the court that shows Trump is asserting executive privilege over any of the recovered records (and in any case, it seems highly doubtful that the issue will prove relevant).
Neither saying it on Truth Social, nor whining it on Fox News, nor braying it at a rally, enters the claim into the court record. In the end, you have to tell it to the judge, not just to your followers.
A successor president should not be able to waive a predecessor president’s privilege…otherwise, the privilege does not exist.
Now do that with a CEO and general counsel of the corporation. You’ll see your conclusion is fallacious.
There is a weak, but not entirely implausible, argument to be made that executive privilege is not solely held by the current occupant, but it’s not because no privilege would exist in the latter case. It clearly does.
Granted, the people that set up and operated our system of government and created the contours of executive privilege assumed some amount of good faith by the holders of the office. It has become clear, however, that Trump supporters don’t mind his repeated lying and lack of integrity because they assume everyone else is just as venal and dishonest as he is, just more polite. That is idiocy which, I am beginning to believe, is born of the character of the people who assume every occupant of the White House will use their powers for their own self-interest…..because that’s what Trump supporters themselves would do.
I don't think corporate leaderships tend to have the sort of issue that our government has, where the system has been corrupted by the presence of separate Parties and so successor office-holders regularly tend to hate eachother.
The fact is that most Presidents get along and get along well. Bush Sr lost to Clinton and yet the two teamed up their post Presidential tears to work on issues. Among the last visitators to Bush Sr was Obama. These men have stood in the highest office of the land, and they share a common experience.
...and that sense of service and responsibility is something Trump has never experienced in his entire life.
There's no evidence that any of the documents seized are subject to executive privilege at all. But assuming they are, executive privilege would have come into being at the time they were created, during the Trump administration.
But, no, he can't "assert executive privilege regarding those documents even after he is no longer in office," because after he is no longer in office he is no longer an executive. To say that someone with no government position can keep the actual POTUS from learning about things that the office of the presidency did a few years ago is lunacy.
It's not "a predecessor president's privilege." It's the office of the presidency's privilege. And thus controlled by the person who holds the office of the presidency. No idea why you think this would mean that the privilege "does not exist."
Yup. And it looks like we’re going to find out what exactly Team Trump Trump claims as covered by Executive Privilege. Trump’s attorneys are to look through the material to determine “on a document-by-document basis” whether the following privileges may apply. The list (from the Special Master Case Management Plan docketed this afternoon) is:
a. Attorney-client communication privilege;
b. Attorney work product privilege;
c. Executive privilege that prohibits review of the document within the executive branch;
d. Executive privilege that prohibits dissemination of the document to persons or entities outside the executive branch;
e. The document is a Presidential Record within the meaning of the Presidential Records Act of 1978, 44 U.S.C. § 2201, et seq. (“PRA); see id. § 2201(2); and/or
f. The document is a personal record within the meaning of the PRA; see id § 2201(3).
If the documents were created during Trump’s administration, then I assume he can assert executive privilege regarding those documents even after he is no longer in office. A successor president should not be able to waive a predecessor president’s privilege…otherwise, the privilege does not exist.
The privilege is not personal. It does not adhere to Trump. The documents are government property.
Think about it like this. Trump asks DOD, say, to prepare a report on Russian military capabilities for him. Classified document, executive privilege, right?
Now Biden comes into office. He would lie to have information about Russian military capabilities. By Trump logic Trump can keep the document and prevent Biden from seeing it on executive privilege grounds.
I mean, here is a document prepared by the executive branch to inform the President, and somehow a private citizen can prevent the current President from seeing it.
Does that make any sense whatsoever? No. It's insane.
After reading some of the other analysis, it looks like DoJ will simply not ask that its full appeal of Judge Cannon’s order be expedited. (If you’re interested, Emptywheel has a particularly detailed piece up this morning, well-supported by extensive quotes from the 11th CCoA opinion.)
Special Master Dearie will complete his review of the other items not covered by DoJ’s successful request for a limited stay, way before the appeal is formally heard. But it will eventually be heard and Judge Cannon’s full order will almost certainly receive the same treatment.
Thus, Randel is correct that—in following normal court practices—DoJ really does get to have their cake and eat it.
And all the while, the effort is racking up charges Trump is paying, and he won’t be able to stiff this vendor that he demanded in the first place.
[update]...since Dearie’s further order requires Trump to pay his bills or face sanction:
The Court of Appeals opinion is a thoroughgoing rebuke of District Judge (loose) Cannon. The appellate court correctly pointed out that Donald Trump has not moved for return of property pursuant to Fed.R.Crim.P. 41(g), and he has asserted no claim of ownership or possessory interest in the documents bearing classification markings.
Indeed, Trump has submitted no document or other evidence asserting any claim to any item of the seized property. (His pleadings are unverified and unsupported by affidavits, declarations or documents of any kind.) I question Trump's standing to sue at all -- unless and until he adequately asserts a claim, there is no case or controversy under Article III. At a minimum, any claim is not ripe.
The Court based its opinion in part on Obama's Executive Order ( https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information ) and did not fully address the timing of the removal of the documents (that is, prior to or after noon, 20-Jan).
I think both sides of the matter are rapidly reaching a common conclusion. So, I'll stay tuned for more!
Would you trust this man with the fate of the country?
pic.twitter.com/woOtEnEI6h
Judge Cannon's order stays in effect for the 11,000 documents not marked "secret" or "top secret." Regarding those documents, the DOJ has a regular practice of seizing as many documents as it can and perusing through everything...while saying that their taint teams are adequate protection. Not everyone feels that this is fair. I am a former prosecutor and I don't think this is fair. Matt Taibbi has a good discussion of this issue at his Substack site.
As a former prosecutor, do you think that Trump's constitutional rights were violated by the search?
I urge you to review the full 11th CC partial denial of Judge Cannon’s stay order. Only 29 pages, it’s interesting and very readable—clear and concise even in things like its background description of the history of the classification process.
As a former prosecutor, you’re familiar with the four Richey analysis factors necessary to justify equitable jurisdiction (on which Judge Cannon based her initial decision to intervene at all), I assume?
The panel’s Richey analysis is illuminating. It finds Judge Cannon’s undisputed (by either side) finding that the first Richey factor—does the government display a “callous disregard” of Trump’s constitutional rights—is entirely absent. It notes this “indispensab[le]” factor is, by itself, reason enough to conclude that the district court “abused its discretion” in exercising equitable jurisdiction here.
It then states the rest of the exercise (going through two different four-factor tests and finding Judge Cannon’s order met none of those eight factors) is merely for “completeness.” Quite the smack-down.
He could've given the classified documents back any time in the last year, including in response to the subpoena that was specifically for them and nothing additional. Instead, he lied about having done so. In that light, the broad-ish search warrant was more than "fair." Anyone else would've been arrested on the spot.
Does everyone whose documents are seized have the right to a special master to determine which are privileged?
Going to be a lot of special masters running around.
Various people are making the claim that the President has the power to declassify documents without any paper trail, possibly without any communication of the intent at all. Supposedly years after the fact they can say "oh, I declassified that back when I was President" and it becomes declassified.
My question is... does that also apply to Pardons? I don't see any way in which the constitution constrains pardon power more than classification power.
So, can Trump suddenly start granting pardon's again? If he claims that he secretly pardoned the Jan 6th rioters on Jan 7th and is only mentioning it now will some folks here start saying they should go free?
If he claims that he secretly pardoned the Jan 6th rioters on Jan 7th and is only mentioning it now will some folks here start saying they should go free?
No question - and, judging by their acceptance of Trump's declassification narrative, they will take Trump's word as irrefutable.
The best skewering of the pardon power has no limits I have seen. Not being limited by the text does not mean that literally any exercise (whether self-pardon or secretly pardoning people in one's own mind only to reveal it after leaving office) is legit.
But, yes, if Trump said he secretly pardoned people during his time in office, I am confident most, if not all, of the usual Trump apologists would say we have to take his word for it.
If we're hypothesizing about pardons, at least we have the benefit of case law saying that a pardon is a fact to be proved by the defendant.
That's fine if John Doe is being prosecuted and says, "I move to dismiss the indictment because I was pardoned." Then the court will say "Prove it" rather than accepting Doe's ipse dixit.
But what if John Doe is being prosecuted and Trump says, "Actually, I issued a pardon to Doe in 2020. No, there's no paperwork, because I don't need to undertake any formal procedure. And there's no witnesses. But I thought it." If this telepathy theory of presidential power were valid, then there would be no way to assess that claim.
This is why Trump's people will never make the telemetry claim in court. It's obviously ludicrous. Even "Judge" Cannon wouldn't go for that level of silly.
Layman's question: is there any theoretical chance that the former defeated president's team might get an en-banc hearing before the full court? Is that gone because of unanimity? I also guess there is little hope for a Hail Mary pass before Justice Thomas, is there?
No, 11th Circuit's rules do not allow for full-court reconsideration of emergency rulings like Wednesday's.
Thank you very much indeed! One of the merits of the Volokh Conspiracy is that there are still people who are willing not to smother the other they do not agree with but instead to help in understanding what is going on.
For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings.
So they start off being pathetic morons, and head downhill from there?
1: The President has plenary power to declassify anything he wants. He can do so by simply pointing at a document and saying "I declassify you"
It still has classification markings on it, but it is not classified.
To claim otherwise is to establish one is completely dishonest, or completely ignorant
2: Under the NARA the President has a legally granted right to documents from his Administration, including classified ones. So even if they were classified, that wouldn't matter
From PJ Media (Reason seems to hate links):
The Obama Foundation stored classified documents in an abandoned furniture warehouse, according to a 2018 letter from the Obama Foundation to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
The letter, available on the Obama Foundation website and dated Sept. 11, 2018, reveals that the Obama Foundation not only acknowledged possessing classified documents but also admitted that they kept them in a facility that did not meet NARA standards for the storage of those documents.
The three judges who issued that order are pathetic hacks.
And so is anyone who approves of it
"From PJ Media (Reason seems to hate links):
The Obama Foundation stored classified documents in an abandoned furniture warehouse, according to a 2018 letter from the Obama Foundation to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)."
Repeating the same lie doesn't make it true. Per David Nieporent above - I don't even need to change his language:
You’re lying again. It’s leased by NARA, not the Obama Foundation.
https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20220803/hoffman-estates-allows-obama-library-archives-to-stay-for-four-more-years
While no firm date has been announced for the completion and opening of the Barack Obama Presidential Library near the University of Chicago, its future contents will stay in Hoffman Estates for four more years.
Village board members unanimously approved an extension to the special-use permit that enables landlord Hoffman Estates Medical Development LLC to lease the 74,200-square-foot former Plunkett Furniture store at 2500 W. Golf Road to the National Archives and Records Administration through Dec. 31, 2026.
... and the 2018 letter Greg cites has been bouncing around the alt-right's echosphere for a couple of days. Because a snippet of it contains the word “classified” they've thought into being (just like Trumps' declassification process) a whole fantasy of Obama malfeasance worse than Trump’s!
If any of them bothered to to read it, perhaps they'd notice it's a formal Letter of Intent between NARA and the Obama Presidential Library Foundation, documenting the result of initial discussions solely concerning how, per the Presidential Records Act (PRA), the Foundation will fund NARA activities supporting eventual availability of Obama Presidential Records (PR) in the presidential library currently under construction in South Chicago.
And the purpose of the paragraph that has them so excited is to provides assurance to NARA that, during the NARA movement of PR in the Chicago area (including at the NARA-leased and managed Hoffman Estates temporary facility), the Foundation will fund NARA's measures to keep both unclassified and classified appropriately secure—including the much more costly practices mandatory for classified—if NARA decides to bring any classified PR to Chicago.
NARA later confirmed they didn't find a need for classified storage in Chicago, and retained it all in the Washington DC area.
Greg is at least the third person in this string to parrot the exact same unfounded accusation copied from Gateway Pundit, PJMedia (Townhall), and the other side of Reason (which has come to mirror those traditionally crazy sites, and The Other Side of Reason would be a great name for what those comment communities have become, or possibly an Indie rock band).
Greg should probably either stick to those sites, or be a little more careful about throwing around "...establish one is completely dishonest, or completely ignorant..." in what seems a true self-own.
"Greg should probably either stick to those sites, or be a little more careful about throwing around “…establish one is completely dishonest, or completely ignorant…” in what seems a true self-own."
I think you may have forgotten the "*drops mic*" part.
Greg often tries to make legal arguments, but he doesn't understand law so he gets things wrong. Let's take his claims one by one:
1) Even if Greg's theory about the president's declassification ability were true, it would not make the court "morons." It would make Greg a moron, for thinking that this were responsive to what they said. Hint: they did not say "classified documents." They said "documents with classification markings." Whether Trump declassified them or not is irrelevant to that point.
2) Greg is stupid and/or a liar. The Presidential Records Act allows an ex-president access to presidential records from his administration; it does not allow him to retain possession of presidential records from his administration. Indeed, it expressly confers the right to possession and control of all such records to the government. Whether they are classified or unclassified does not in fact matter.
3) Why the hell is Greg citing "PJ Media" rather than an actual news outlet? And raising whatabout arguments that were already demolished about Obama?
Incidentally, not that it should matter, but two of the three 11th circuit judges that Greg thinks are "pathetic morons" and "pathetic hacks" were Trump appointees.
Yup, and the two youngest and most Trump-world conservative of the six Trump-appointed Judges on the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals:
More good news for Trump from the Special Master! From WaPo (available lost of other places too) within the last hour:
btw, the full list, from the docketed Special Master Case Management Plan:
Josh Blackman must be in mourning.