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My Skepticism About Fears of a Constitutional Convention
A New York Times article yesterday ("A Second Constitutional Convention? Some Republicans Want to Force One") discusses conservative attempts to get a constitutional convention that would propose a constitutional amendment (it takes 2/3 of the states to call for one, and one question is how many have already done so), and criticisms of those attempts. After two paragraphs discussing the pro-convention views of "Jodey Arrington, a conservative Texas Republican," it goes on thus:
To Russ Feingold, the former Democratic senator from Wisconsin and president of the American Constitution Society, a liberal judicial group, that is a terrible idea. Mr. Feingold sees the prospect of a constitutional convention as an exceptionally dangerous threat from the right and suggests it is closer to reality than most people realize as Republicans push to retake control of Congress in November's midterm elections.
"We are very concerned that the Congress, if it becomes Republican, will call a convention," said Mr. Feingold, the co-author of a new book warning of the risks of a convention called "The Constitution in Jeopardy."
"This could gut our Constitution," Mr. Feingold said in an interview. "There needs to be real concern and attention about what they might do. We are putting out the alert."
While the rise of election deniers, new voting restrictions and other electoral maneuvering get most of the attention, Mr. Feingold rates the prospect of a second constitutional convention as just as grave a threat to democratic governance.
Elements on the right have for years been waging a quiet but concerted campaign to convene a gathering to consider changes to the Constitution. They hope to take advantage of a never-used aspect of Article V, which says in part that Congress, "on the application of the legislatures of two-thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments."
Throughout the nation's history, 27 changes have been made to the Constitution by another grindingly arduous route, with amendments originating in Congress subject to ratification by the states.
With sharp partisanship making that path near impossible, backers of the convention idea now hope to harness the power of Republican-controlled state legislatures to petition Congress and force a convention they see as a way to strip away power from Washington and impose new fiscal restraints, at a minimum.
But here's the thing: If a constitutional convention is called and proposes amendments, they still have to be ratified by legislatures or conventions (the convention gets to decide which) in 3/4 of all states:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress;
Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect that this will be a pretty serious bar to any particularly radical proposals. If you disagree, tell me this: What amendments do you think a convention could propose that would get the support of legislatures or conventions in at least 38 of the 50 states, and how conservative (or liberal) do you think those amendments would be?
By the way, the New York Times article does mention the 38-state ratification requirement—in the 24th out of 28 paragraphs.
UPDATE [11:06 am]: Just to be clear, I'm skeptical that a convention would produce any particular useful amendments, either.
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Saving "Our Democracy" by denying it". What a premise.
They are "fortifying" our democracy, if you prefer. Just like they "fortified" the last election.
Did you see what the Democrats at the Census did to fortify the next 10 years of elections?
No remedy whatsoever.
NYT weighing in on the latest lefty talking point - "Republicans winning elections is a threat to democracy!!!!"
So following the constitution will destroy it?
Russ Feingold does not convince me.
one question is how many have already done so
If anyone needed more evidence of how disfunctional US government at all levels is, here you go. Can you imagine any other country where this would be a source of confusion?
As a European I'm sure you have a large selection of "dysfunctional" governments to choose from depending on how you want to define dysfunction.
True. There are seven EU Member States that rank below the US in the quality of democracy index. https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking
Martin,
Rather than concluding that the US government is dysfunctional, I conclude that it is American tribalism of its populace that is causing the dysfunction.
Regardless of what Mr. Biden might demagouge, Americans have the governance that they chose and deserve. That is democracy in action
All of that is all well and good, but in a functioning government it shouldn't be difficult to figure out what it actually decided. (As in this case: whether it backs a constitutional convention or not.)
Your excellent logic has convinced me! Obviously the US does not have a functioning government, nor most other countries, considering how much all of them ignore corruption at the top and bless confusion at the bottom; what's a poor ignorant slob supposed to do?
Equally obviously, your fine logic leads to the conclusion that the proper response is government so small that it can't protect its cronies and can't sow confusion. I'm all aboard!
I agree with much of that, see my point below about state aid law.
But actually keeping track of what the government has decided shouldn't be difficult for a government of any size.
We are so in agreement! And since every government always contradicts itself, I am proud to have you as a member of my deplorable team which wants to shrink government by 99%, for starters.
every government always contradicts itself
Again, in functioning democracies there are very strong norms to stop that happening. For example, in most countries cabinet members are not supposed to publicly disagree with decisions made by cabinet. (Unless they resign first.)
"one question is how many have already done so"
According to one org who is pushing for it, the current tally is ninteen states.
(having trouble posting comments with hyperlinks)
Wikipedia says, basically, "It's complicated". Apparently, there are five different categories of requests, and legislatures may rescind their request (which may or may not be valid) so an accurate count would depend on what rules would apply and that is not clear.
What's interesting to me is how quickly the US "conservative" movement went from venerating the constitution as near perfect document on par with the Bible to saying "Let's throw the whole thing out and start over." It's almost like there are no actual principles at work. (c:
Agree that it's unlikely that 38 states will agree on anything, but I'd rather not take that chance.
"What's interesting to me is how quickly the US "conservative" movement went from venerating the constitution as near perfect document on par with the Bible to saying "Let's throw the whole thing out and start over.""
An old joke on the right is, "Sure, the Constitution isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now."; The right doesn't view us as currently actually following the Constitution, and so doesn't view an attachment to constitutional government as implying any particular loyalty to our government as currently run.
The thought here is that a constitutional convention would get us a reset on constitutional meaning, make it extremely difficult, for a while anyway, to employ living constitutionalism to circumvent it. The only basis living constitutionalism has for claiming legitimacy is that Article V is somehow 'broken'; Actually use it successfully to amend the Constitution, and suddenly it becomes very hard for the left to successfully argue that it's bypassing Article V on account of it being broken, rather than just because the 'amendments' they want not being popular.
The only basis living constitutionalism has for claiming legitimacy is that Article V is somehow 'broken';
Only Brett Bellmore truly understands the Constitution.
I love their argument for a "living Constitution". It's the only historical document whose meaning changes from year to year.
The only basis living constitutionalism has for claiming legitimacy is that Article V is somehow 'broken';
Plenty of other reasons, including long practice. But you have never been good at understanding others' motives unless you make them up yourself.
Nice appeal to tradition, Gaslightr0.
Precedent is indeed something of an appeal to tradition. So is originalism. So is purposivism.
You have never been particularly consistent with understanding your own motives, much less anybody else's.
I tell Brett that non-originalists have many good-faith motives.
You respond with nothing but insults.
What was the point of that?
I think that originalists disagree with non-originalists about what qualifies as "good-faith".
Brett is absolutely the master of saying, "There is exactly one explanation for why people did X." (And, shockingly, the explanation is always "bad faith" or "corruption" or the like.)
Oh heavens to Betsy, the horror that 38 states might agree on something and DESTROY DEMOCRACY and/or THE CONSTITUTION.
The humanity, the humanity!
What is the purpose of this sneering? It has no content, makes no argument. It's not even clear whether you're saying that it would be a good thing if it happened, or that it couldn't or wouldn't happen, or something else.
I call attention to your own sneer directly above.
The guy sneers more often than I use the can in a day..
ah....Clem: I'm also skeptical about these generalizations about supposed inconsistencies in a "movement." Sometimes they stem just from differences in branches within a movement; and sometimes they stem from strawmen or exaggerations. For instance, I doubt that many conservatives really thought the Constitution was "perfect" or that the convention should "throw the whole thing out." Perhaps instead many conservatives and liberals think that the Constitution is on balance sound, but in need of amendment, as the Constitution itself acknowledges and provides for in Article V; and some of them think that some Amendments should come through the convention process, because Congress is broken, corrupted, or self-interested in particular ways.
I think you forgot to mention that "because Congress is broken, corrupted, or self-interested in particular ways." the courts have stepped in and had an unprecedented effect on how we are governed.
The 3/4 rule could itself be amended away. If you're computery, calling a Constitutional convention is like logging in as root. If you're not, remember that 100% of all Constitutional conventions in this country have gone rogue. The one to tinker with the Articles of Confederation exceeded its mandate so spectacularly that some said we'd abandoned civilization.
A constitutional convention is not like logging in as root; you fail your own nerd test. It does not bypass the requirement that each amendment pass on its own.
Historically, A nerdy Fred is correct. Philosophically, A nerdy Fred is correct. As a matter of political science, A nerdy Fred is correct. As a matter of all three, your assertion is peculiar that somehow the existing constitution could constrain the choices of a convention called to modify it.
Probably, you are unused to thinking about where government comes from, but accustomed to think mistakenly that the Constitution is sovereign. If it were, you would have a point. It isn't. You don't.
saying "Let's throw the whole thing out and start over."
They've said no such thing. They're calling for a convention to make changes to it, not to draft an entirely new constitution.
-jcr
John C. Randolph — Sure. That's what they are calling for. But they can't have it.
To get forthrightly what they say they want, they must convene a convention with sovereign power. Sovereign power does not merely imply, but actually requires an ability to act at pleasure, without constraint. Anything short of that—anything under constraint of any kind—must acknowledge that whatever is capable to apply the constraint is the actual controlling power. That leaves the constrained and subordinate body as an illegitimate pretender—and likely as a cat's paw for whatever actually sovereign power has been in control from behind the scenes.
That is the situation right-wing convention advocates have been angling for. They have not thought it through in that way, but their advocacy shows they plan in terms of a convention which will meet under constraints they choose, and which only they can control and approve. No legitimate constitutional changes can result from such a sham procedure. To try it, and call the resulting provocation legitimate, would be irresponsible. It would deliver a further goad to worsen an already bad political situation.
On the other hand, no legitimately sovereign body—convened to act at pleasure during this interval of fractious and divisive politics—could be counted on to deliver any predictable outcome. It would be folly to try.
"to strip away power from Washington and impose new fiscal restraints, at a minimum."
Quelle horreur.
He just said what they are all thinking. That's why Biden ramped up the heat with this "clear and present danger" rhetoric.
The elites fear losing power and money, controlling a majority of everything and trillions of dollars isn't enough for them. They have to control everything. The Federals are evil despicable monsters.
Probably the stupidest thing about the MAGA movement is not understanding that it is run by elites.
Who are it's leaders and how much national and global institutional power do they have?
Politicians, media figures, billionaires....
Way to prove DMN correct.
What institutional power do the MAGA movement's elites have?
Those aren't names.
They won’t answer, BCD. Because they know the MAGA movement is the absolute opposite of elitist.
Well, Donald Trump is obviously #1. (Well, Donald Trump is #2. But he's first on the list.)
You can bet your last dollar that if the either the zealots on the left or Santorum and his zealots on the right get their hands on the constitution then we’ll lose some liberty. In their infinite wisdom they just HAVE to tell us what to do. No thank you very much.
Sidelight - the NYT was also dismayed that Chilean voters harshly rejected the proposed new wile constitution. 62% voted no.
A constitution with 388 articles seems too complicated to ever be workable.
The last time I saw a pdf of the annotated constitution, it ran to 2000 pages. That doesn't seem very workable either. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/
The proposed Chilean constitution, as I understand it, had lots of social rights that by definition don't really do anything. So they don't really add to the complexity of the document.
"The last time I saw a pdf of the annotated constitution, it ran to 2000 pages."
Sounds like the "Affordable Care Act" which we were told first needed to be passed so we would know what was in it.
That's an excellent example of what I'm talking about when I talk about dysfunction. The ACA was a complete mess, because that was the only way to get it through Congress.
And yet, it was passed by a single political party.
That is not disfunctional government, it is shithead thinking by the elected representative, as could happen in any country. I offer Israel and Italy as exmples
Institutions run on people, and when people are good the dysfunctions are easy enough to sidestep.
The filibuster enabled shitheadedness. So did the centralization of party control.
There's plenty of institutional dysfunction in our government. It's just that when our Congress isn't so fucked you can't tell.
"The filibuster enabled shitheadedness. So did the centralization of party control."
I don't buy any of that. members of congress have been able to function well in the past when the parties were not so ideologically divided as they are now. It is not the filibuster, or strong parties that make for dysfunction it is the tribal thinking that the other guys is evil.
It says a lot about your idea of dysfunction that you think a constitution can harmlessly include articles that are supposedly only aspirational.
It also says a lot about your level of understanding these things that you think annotations somehow become part of the document.
I think there is no meaningful conceptual difference between the words of the constitution and what the courts say those words mean. The law is what the court will give you.
Less philosophically, the US constitution is so short that you can't really understand anything about how the country works by reading it. So in a very real sense the annotated constitution is the supreme law of the land.
As for aspirational clauses in a constitution, I think there are a fair few of those in the US constitution as well. I already mentioned the republican form of government clause below, for example.
The size of an annotated constitution is going to be a function of the constitution's age and population size / legal activity, though. You're conflating history of litigation with the set of rules: and when a constitution has been made 388-articles complicated, there is far more scope for surprising or mischievous rules to be applied.
It's also not clear that the original understanding was that those clauses in the US Constitution would be merely aspirational.
Many Chileans and many Americans rightfully view progressives as evil. Chile wouldn't have been the nation it is today if Pinochet hadn't exterminated its most vile leftists.
Calling for political murder, are you?
He's just acknowledging a historical truism.
What do you think wars are, declared or not?
"War is a mere continuation of policy by other means." -- Clausewitz
Yes, but the policy is 'Let's have a war!'
1. So? Wars of aggression are, in general, not a great idea.
2. He is, let's be blunt, advocating that his political opponents be murdered. I don't think we need to let him off with a shrug.
Deciding there's a war on so you can start killing people doesn't actually make political murder legal or good, Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf.
Pinochet sucked, and those calling for political killings in America also suck.
And Biden's speech was divisive.
Biden is the President of the US.
Isaac is a rando posting on Volokh.
I'm impressed you find any comparison in their standing.
What happens when the Convention follows the pattern of the first one, and proposes replacing the Constitution and putting it into effect on ratification by 2/3 of the states?
Let’s just say ‘chaos’.
Then the states decide whether or not to ratify it. If enough people think the changes are needed, then they get to. That's the system working the way it's supposed to.
Michael Loucks — Exactly right. Most comments here, including the OP by EV, overlook that a constitutional convention constrained by anything—including pre-existing terms for ratification—is a contradiction.
The Constitution is the sovereign's decree to constrain government. Government cannot constrain the sovereign, nor can the Constitution do so.
Delegates sitting in a constitutional convention must be empowered to act at pleasure, or necessarily they fall under subordination to whatever power constrains them. As subordinates, they cannot be sovereign. That means, among other things, that once the convention begins, nobody knows anymore what the conditions for ratification will be when it is finished.
SL,
That is even garbled thinking by your own standards. You are so enmeshed by molasses in your own thought processes, that you wind up saying nothing in many words.
Nico, without mistakenly attributing sovereignty to the Constitution itself, what power controls the terms for ratification of the work of a hypothetical future constitutional convention?
Atributing sovereignity to a document is obvious nonsense. Yet one can hardly escape the conclusion that the People of the United States at the time of ratification constrained the People at later times through Article V. And so on into the future.
There are no other choices except anarchy followed by brute force which is likely to produce a less diffuse Sovereign
Yet one can hardly escape the conclusion that the People of the United States at the time of ratification constrained the People at later times through Article V.
I doubt that even using hypothetical necromancy you could find even one founder who would agree with that. Certainly none is on record saying it.
James Wilson, the political theorist in whose hand much of the final text of the Constitution was first drafted, is on record elsewhere against your assertion. My own views on sovereignty, which I have offered repeatedly here, are mostly paraphrases lifted from Wilson. Franklin and Madison worked closely with Wilson at the Philadelphia Convention.
More generally, yes, brute force is the first qualification of a sovereign, just as power sufficient to make a government at pleasure is the supreme manifestation of sovereignty. Turns out, those principles worked alike, whether for a kingly claimant to rule by divine right, or for a diffuse sovereign People.
But you are mistaken again if you suppose most founders—or maybe any of them—supposed popular sovereignty was meant as a one-and-done, to deliver a charter to last for all time. At the very moment of it's creation, this nation's continuously active sovereign was acknowledged by its most experienced statesman, by his famous answer to a question about what kind of government the Philadelphia Convention had delivered: "A Republic, if you can keep it." The, "you," is a reference to the sovereign People; the, "if," is a challenge to continuous exertions of sovereign power Franklin expected happenstance might require.
The Constitution was always intended to constrain only the government, including in any role it might undertake to create amendments.
Nothing about that prescribed process for government suggested constraint on the sovereign People, who remained always as free as they were theorized by Jefferson to be, when he wrote, "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Actuated by, "We the People" that principle both justified creation of the present Constitution, and did nothing to foreclose what they might choose to do, "whenever," they might find it needful. What constraint on sovereignty do you think you find in Jefferson's formulation?
"I doubt that even using hypothetical necromancy you could find even one founder who would agree with that. Certainly none is on record saying it. "
Nonsense. That is exactly what Article 5 does.
You have some strange Jeffersonian fetish about "We the People,"
but in fact that days came and went nearly 250 years ago.
"I doubt that even using hypothetical necromancy you could find even one founder who would agree with that. Certainly none is on record saying it."
They weren't on record saying that the Constitution was to be interpreted as written in English using English grammar and pre-existing meanings of words, either. Or that any references to numbers were in base 10 using the established rules of mathematics.
I'd say "Don't be an ass.", but it's far, far too late for that. The very decision to write a constitution down and include a means for amendment dictates that any changes must be by written amendments using that procedure, because that's the only way the document actually gets changed.
Its an Article V convention, not a blank slate convention. The Articles of Confederation authorized them more leeway.
So sure they can propose as many amendments as they want, but the more complicated the more sweeping they are the less likely they are to pass.
Don't forget with our current system of State elections to select Senators, we are at 50-50, although the legislatures are 30-17-3, but that precludes anything too radical getting through.
Given how polarized the country is, it's difficult to imagine anything that came out of a constitutional convention getting the necessary number of state ratifications. This would be an exercise in futility.
I think the most that would happen would be two kinds of amendments, if any:
* Really popular ones and effectively pointless, like tinkering with the Electoral College, possibly even dumping it altogether.
* Serious ones, like a balanced budget, which would take years to get enough ratifications, at least several cycles of Presidency.
If tinkering with the Electoral College is "really popular", why hasn't anyone managed to do it yet under the current constitution? As far as I know the National Popular Vote interstate compact is still well short of its threshold for entering into force.
...and is probably unconstitutional.
I thought the current conservative talking point was that state legislatures can do with their electoral college votes whatever they like, as long as they do it before election day? At least that's what Brett Belmore told me.
Generally yes, but there is a specific prohibition in the Constitution on subsets of states entering into treaties or alliances.
In practice, I don’t see that as meaning much. What is a court going to do (assuming a plaintiff with standing can even be found), tell a state it can’t award its electors to a certain candidate?
Is it so far fetched that a court might find that a state's electors must be chosen by voters in that state, and not voters in another state?
The NPV compact isn't going anywhere.
It is, pretty explicitly, a way to stop Republicans from winning the EC with less than a majority of the popular vote. It's never gotten any significant support outside the Democratic party. As such it was adopted first by states that always go Democratic, and then proceeded to pick up states that were less partisan.
As you approach 50% penetration with it, and the prospect of it kicking in increases, you are attempting to add states that are swing states. They generally have an experience of getting the President they've voted for anyway, and of people paying attention to them during Presidential election years exactly for that reason.
So there's nothing in it for the last few states that need to be captured, except the prospect of ceasing to matter, and more frequently not getting the President they voted for.
Further, even if the NPV compact went into effect... The first time it kicks in and forces a state to allocate their EC votes to a candidate who lost the state, the voters will be outraged enough that the compact falls apart.
Given that there are a lot of Republican votes in states like California that are suppressed by apathy, and the NPV compact would motivate them, it's even possible that the first application would be to put a Republican in the White house!
It is, pretty explicitly, a way to stop Republicans from winning the EC with less than a majority of the popular vote.
Ooh, you've got them figured out! It's a way to stop *anyone* winning with less than a majority of the popular vote. You know how you can tell? Because it says so right in the title.
I thought your argument was that a constitutional convention would create chaos by running amok.
Please make up your mind. Us proles are confused by this confusion on our betters' part. It is what makes our government so dysfunctional.
Well Congress is doing such a bang up job, maybe they need a shot across their bow to wake them up.
I think we do need a constitutional amendment to reign in Presidential executive orders, and an amendment that make it harder to continue deficit spending. Maybe require 60 votes for spending that increases the deficit.
If it's something Republicans want, they can get anything pushed through if they have the support of about 65% of the American public.
If it's something Democrats want, they'd need around 90%.
So far the only thing Dems needed was Joe Manchin and a pen and a phone.
I'm talking about a Constitutional amendment.
It's still a false premise.
10% of the population is in 13 Republican states. That would be enough to block any amendment with 90% support.
On the other hand, subtracting the 13 most Democratic states still leaves 65%.
Has any ratification ever lined up that way? Nope.
Don't forget a bunch of cooperative judges for secret consent decrees or secret deals with their comrades in regulatory agencies.
crisis,
You make a snide comment, you get a snarky response.
Snide it may be, but it’s also accurate. Since Wyoming would cancel California in the ratification process, it, like pretty much everything else in our political system, would favor the rural areas.
Though as I said above, we’re so polarized I doubt anything would make it through te ratification process. For better or worse we will keep what people who have been dead for 200 years thought was a good idea.
It’s kept us free and prosperous for more than 200 years, so maybe those dead guys were right.
That's one way to describe US history. Not an accurate way, mind you, but still, *a way*.
Certainly accurate when compared to the rest of the world.
Oh and by the way thanks to your enlightened leaders would required the US to pull your chestnuts out of the fire in two world wars and guard you against a soviet occupation.
You're welcome.
My enlightened leaders have governed over a free democracy for more than 400 years, except during periods when we were invaded by foreign tyrants because we don't have a conveniet ocean between us and the rest of the world.
Seriously? I am assuming you are referring to the Netherlands.
See link for wars your free democracy participated in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Netherlands
I'm not sure why you think that rebuts either the "free" or the "democracy" part. My compatriots started lots of wars all over the world, but they did so because that was democratically decided. (In whatever version of democracy existed at the time.) None of those wars made the Netherlands any less free.
It's ok when your guys do it. Voluntary aggressive wars are ok when voted on democratically.
I guess Hitler's enabling law was also ok, being democratically approved by democratically elected representatives.
Who said it was OK? I just said that it didn't rebut my claim about fre and democratic.
As for Hitler:
a) you lose
b) if you think he was democratically elected I have a bridge you might like to buy.
Martin,
My Italian friends told me the same thing about Mr Draghi. That he was democratically chosen, because the parliament followed the Italian Constituation.
In short, Liz Truss is Hitler.
The blacks who lived under slavery and Jim Crow might have a different take on it. As might women wanting an abortion, married couples wanting to use birth control, and gays wanting to marry.
My wife and I used birth control for a long time. Are we criminals? Gays can’t marry?
Y’all act like there’s some human-run system that will operate in perfection and if it doesn’t then it’s hopelessly flawed. America was an inspiration instituted be people having to make imperfect choices. It’s been generally free and prosperous for its entire history, and over time the flaws have been corrected and that has been spread to the people who were originally left out.
Y’all look down your nose at anything less than perfection. I assume y’all prefer a tighter run system like the Soviets ran? Feudal Europe? Yeah, Martin, you folks in Europe certainly have it down, putting people in prison for speech and violently shifting boundaries every 20 years or so.
There is no such thing as a perfect system run by humans. That’s not the question. The question is whether what we have could be improved upon. The answer to that question is yes.
The Constitution has a lot of good stuff in it. It also has some bad stuff in it, and started out with some really awful stuff that has been amended out. You and I simply don’t always agree on what’s good and what’s bad.
I think you just said what I said.
Point being that the trend from the beginning has generally been in the good direction.
I have a lot more trust in Wyoming than I do in California, and I'm a native Californian.
The rules were clear from the start. You don't get to cry your eyes out now that the Dems focused their resources on running up the vote in coastal urban areas while the GOP focused on the interior.
You've got a funny idea of how this works, as if the two parties were kids picking teams for kickball teams.
"What amendments do you think a convention could propose that would get the support of legislatures or conventions in at least 38 of the 50 states, and how conservative (or liberal) do you think those amendments would be?"
Second Amendment 2: We really mean it this time!
2A delete the militia statement
1A add a clarifier that ALL speech is free speech. (yes even hate speech)
I don't think that clarifier would rescind the "fighting words" exclusions to free speech since any action to fighting words would be covered by self defense.
I don’t think either of those would get 38 states.
"2A delete the militia statement
1A add a clarifier that ALL speech is free speech. (yes even hate speech)"
Since the current supreme court has ignored the opening clause of the 2A, that would seem to have no practical effect.
Likewise for the second example - "hate speech" is protected under 1A, despite the popular misconceptions.
They don't ignore it, they just don't support the popular misconception and instead interpret it correctly.
I'm not following.
There is no need to alter the 2nd amendment its perfectly clear and settled law.
The only thing it would do is have the idiots come out of the woodwork and claim: 'see we were right it was only a collective right'.
The flip side -what sort of amendments do those who advocate for a constitutional convention have in mind? A convention is for wholesale changes, not tinkering. If those calling for a convention have 2 or 3 well thought out proposals, those proposals could be launched in the normal way that amendments are launched.
The supposed problems with our constitution do not come from the document itself, but rather from those legislators and judges who have abused it. For example, one party wants to interpret the commerce clause so extensively as to grant Congress the power to regulate each person's economic decisions. No paper barrier will stop such batshit craziness.
The chance of a runaway convention in which demagogues push through harmful changes is always present, and especially now when there is not much rational discourse in our politics. The upside might be that once such a convention closes all segments of the population will have had a say in whether to retain or change the various clauses of the Constitution and the canard that a more than two centuries old relic should not rule our society will have been put to rest.
.
The problem is that given the current climate, the chance of a rational amendment passing the current Congress is nil.
Here is a simple one: the line-item veto. A number of governors have it, and it works well. SCOTUS held it unconstitutional. It makes perfect, rational sense, but the chance of it ever passing Congress is nil.
It empowers the president at the expense of Congress, so it's easy to see why Congress would not want it in the Constitution.
Moreover, it has the same partisan problem as all proposals to restructure government do in our current partisanly-sorted age: if the president is the same party as Congress, it's not needed. If the president is the opposite party as Congress, then Congress has an extra reason to oppose it.
There are only two ways around that second issue: (1) have a lame duck session of Congress do it, when the presidency will be in the other party's hands; (2) propose it so that it doesn't become effective for, say, five years. That way nobody would know which party would hold the presidency at the time.
You put your finger on a structural reason why Congress will likely not pass it.
Which is why it would be a good choice for a Constitutional Convention.
Granted, it lacks excitement and appeal. "Give me a line-item veto or give me death" is not somethng you are likely to hear any time soon.
"Moreover, it has the same partisan problem as all proposals to restructure government do in our current partisanly-sorted age: if the president is the same party as Congress, it's not needed. If the president is the opposite party as Congress, then Congress has an extra reason to oppose it."
Republicans gave it to Clinton. SCOTUS shot it down. So, clearly, not a totally partisan issue.
The category of amendments that might be reasonable but could not be passed the "normal" way are those that limit the power of Congress. Examples:
1. An amendment carving out some specific set of powers as reserved exclusively to the states.
2. An amendment limiting Congress' ability to borrow money.
3. An amendment requiring Congress to give an up or down vote on nominees within a fixed period of time.
No. 1 effectively finishes the defacto repeal of the Tenth Amendment, gives even more power to the Feds.
No. 3 is micro managing. If the President nominates someone so unpopular that the Senate won't even vote on it, why force the vote? If the nominee is really popular and it is just Senate leadership being partisan assholes, there are already ways to force a vote.
I wasn't really proposing those, just giving examples of the type of things Congress would never, ever, propose on their own and thus could only pass via convention.
However, the 10th amendment is so toothless now that it might be better to have enumerated reserved powers rather than none reserved at all. Suppose the list were the following: education, health, public assistance, family law, and any commerce not directly involving the actual shipment of goods across a state line.
That would be a pretty good improvement. Also unrealistic, but then this whole thread is unrealistic.
On #3, it is micromanaging but I see no harm in forcing reps to go on the record. In fact, I'd go farther than just nominations. Some limited number of times, the president, or one-fifth of the members of either house, can propose a bill, and each house has to do a roll call vote on the exact, unmodified text within 30 days.
Just so such bills don't use all their time, the president and each rep could be limited to one such bill per year.
That's more than enough to use all the time!
What I meant on the representatives was 1/5 of the members, and each representative can sign on to only one per year. That's a theoretical maximum of 5 bills from representatives, 5 bills from senators, and 1 from the president for a total of 11 per year. Consider that since they can't amend, there's no need for committee work and procedural votes.
The worry is it would go the other way: they'd develop a "norm" of voting down all the mandatory bills on the first day without debate and then return to their regular routine. But at least it would put a little bit of political pressure and accountability on them.
"On #3, it is micromanaging but I see no harm in forcing reps to go on the record. In fact, I'd go farther than just nominations. Some limited number of times, the president, or one-fifth of the members of either house, can propose a bill, and each house has to do a roll call vote on the exact, unmodified text within 30 days.
Just so such bills don't use all their time, the president and each rep could be limited to one such bill per year."
Back in the day Newt had some ideas about what was popular but would never be voted on. One thing Newt supported was English as the national language, something that according to the polls had something like 80%+ support according to the polls. I would almost bet English as the national language would have majority support today. Same thing goes for what I will call the anchor baby citizenship mess; are illegal aliens really under control of the government. Truth be told even lots of gay rights lost the popular vote in liberal places like CA but still got passed into laws.
Not to mention back in the day only land owners could vote. In fact the basis of the revolution was 'taxation with out representation'. As Tocqueville noted the biggest weakness of the American government experiment was that voters could vote themselves benefits that were not paid for; sorta 'representation without taxation'. Even from the nation's beginning there was national debt, something that has only gotten worse as time passed. Maybe the only change to the Constitution needed was to not spend money we don't have.
If you're talking about regular bills rather than constitutional amendments, it's not clear Congress has the authority to do some of that, even under the modern almost-anything goes rule.
I don't see any authority for a national language. They could do "English as the official language for federal government business" but that wouldn't change much. They could take the second and third languages off some federal flyers and websites. I don't see any authority to make state governments do the same, though. If you're upset about bilingual education or seeing some Spanish on your ballot, those are state governments.
Anchor babies, like it or not, are explicitly in the constitution. If you can legally arrest someone for a crime then they are under the jurisdiction, full stop and hard period. Nativists want to main two simultaneous meanings of jurisdiction but they're just trying to have their cake and eat it to.
Name one other country that grants citizenship to an "anchor baby".
Contrary to your claim the 14th Amendment has been used to justifiy this by taking the term "jurisdiction" out of the context it was intended to mean at the time of its ratification.
Well, there's no such thing as an "anchor baby" — the pejorative label relies on ignorance about U.S. immigration law — but if you mean birthright citizenship, most of the Americas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli.
False.
Here's a much simpler idea.
* Every legislator can propose their own bill at any time.
* Every bill undergoes a minimum 30 day review period. Any revisions restart the review period. Any court challenges as to constitutionality put a hold on the review period until the court cases is done. This does not preclude post-enactment constitutionality challenges.
* All legislators can sign up as approving of any bill they want.
* At the end of the review period, if a bill has 2/3 approvals, it passes that chamber.
* If a bill passes all chambers at the end of that review period, it goes to the President as usual.
In addition,
* Every law has an associated repeal petition, sign up sheet, whatever you call it.
* If 1/2 legislators in any chamber sign up for repeal, the law is repealed instantly.
* Repeal petitions are wiped clean at each new 2-year Congress.
The primary goal is to hobble party politics, get rid of committees, subcommittees, all those rules letting parties control what bills can even be voted on. Of course, parties would have shadow committees, but mavericks could still buck the system.
This would also apply to nominations requiring Senate approval; there's your up/down vote. You've got 30 days to make your case.
I'd also include a sunset clause on all laws.
There are a few that came out mock convention in 2016 that's I'd back.
Congressional term limits
Requiring a two-thirds vote of the House and Senate to increase the public debt
Restoring the Commerce Clause to its original intent and scope
Repeal of the 16th Amendment, which gave us the income tax
Giving states, by a three-fifths vote, the power to negate any federal law, regulation or executive order
Giving Congress an easy means of overriding federal regulation
Gee, sounds so radical. Could the country survive changes like that?
"A convention is for wholesale changes, not tinkering."
I don't think that's any more true of the convention than Congress; It's just an alternate approach so that Congress can be bypassed when they refuse to originate popular amendments.
See below. What happens when 34 states ask for the convention and the congressional bill to call one simply fails to get a majority vote?
The Equal Rights Amendment would have passed 38 states if it had been proposed in 1966.
So would an amendment requiring a training program and a license (similar to a driver's license) for gun ownership.
Channeling Mr. Peabody?
And so would an amendment prohibiting race based affirmative action, banning mass immigration of unskilled third worlders, banning on closing men's sports teams to equalize the number of male and female athletes, and of course, banning gay marriage and the idea of "transgender" rights.
What's your point?
I don't think any of those would have passed. Affirmative action was supported by both parties at the time. "Mass immigration of unskilled third worlders" had just been allowed by Congress, in 1965. Gay marriage was already illegal so there was no reason to ban it, nor was there any movement afoot to legalize it. Transgender rights was not yet an issue.
Slavery was supported well enough in 1789; what's your point?
My point is that the right wing has gone off the deep end, which is why matters of nationwide consensus in 1966 would not be now. The Equal Rights Amendment, for example, had been consistently supported by the Republican Party since 1940.
The ERA failed when it did because it was proposed when it was, which led to the public actually thinking about what it would imply, and responding.
Had it been proposed earlier, the public would have begun seriously considering it earlier, and it likely would have come out the same way, just earlier.
"Affirmative action" in 1966 meant something dramatically different from what it has come to mean today. It just meant you'd go out of your way to find minority candidates who would then be evaluated on the basis of their merits. Today it has some to mean racial quotas, often covert, and that wouldn't have been popular in 1966, either.
'Today it has some to mean racial quotas, often covert'
The racists in 1966 were saying more or less the exact same thing, and that any black person with a job must not have had it on merit. Same old same old.
The Equal Rights Amendment would have passed 38 states if it had been proposed in 1966.
Not if they knew how "sex" would be interpreted 50 years later.
What could go wrong? Unlimited things. Our Constitution is still the only one in history that constrains the government. Most others, such as the EU Constitution, list positive rights that require virtualy unlimited government power to implement. The proposed new Chilean Constitution is the apotheosis of that, though it resembles the old Soviet one. A convention in the US today would certainly be seized on by the left to completely remake the federal government along the lines of those foreign leftist monstrosities, leaving Americans as constrained as citizens of countries like Australia with its police raids on house parties during covid lockdowns. No. We are far better off tackling the federal code, which is where many of our problems actually reside.
What part of 3/4 of the states approval for an amendment to pass don't you understand?
How many state governments do the blues control today? How many more do you think they could take if they had the motivation of possibly replacing the Constitution? Yes it would be an uphill battle for them, but do you want to take the chance? What's the upside? Do you see a convention realistically coming up with something you'd want over what we have now?
Mr. Bumble, consider this.
A convention meets and gets dominated by progressives, many of them well-known and popular with the media. Their narrative, every night on multiple networks, is that the big problem with the constitution is that it has illegitimate, anti-democratic supermajority requirements designed solely protect the interests of racists, wealthy people, bigots,...clingers.
We have commenters here that like to say that.
Once they've sold that, they'll attack the 3/4 requirement itself. They'll say it's so unfair and Catch-22 and dishonest to use an illegitimate supermajority requirement to protect an illegitimate supermajority requirement. And this will be a saturation message an engaged person will hear a dozen times a day.
If they think they can get 1/2 the states, they'll simply write into their package an amendment that changes the amendment requirement to 1/2, and contains self-actuating language that it goes into effect when approved by 1/2 the states.
If they think they can't even get 1/2, they'll add that the state legislatures are also illegitimate gerrymandered systematically racist supermajoritarian institutions, declare themselves to be the only legitimate representative of the people, and declare their new constitution to be in effect.
Would it stick? If the president and the military decided to side with the convention they would have a chance.
"If the president and the military decided to side with the convention they would have a chance."
A chance of another civil war.
It's the people in Washington DC that are the cause of virtually all our problems.
It was a unique moment in history, trying to break away from tyranny, so they disempowered the government from that.
Most, including any modern constitution, would be written by the shits trying to maximize their power over the people, and specifically, business, which is where all the best kickbacks come from, you know.
It was a pretty good first attempt at something which had never been tried before.
Its main defect is assuming that internal checks and balances with three branches would be enough. Either no one thought collusion among the power hungry was possible, or they were all in on the dirty little secret.
The primary fix would be making it harder to pass laws and easier to repeal them. One idea is to require 2/3 in every chamber + Presidential signature to pass laws, but only 1/2 in any chamber w/o Presidential signature to repeal laws. Also allow 1/2 of states to pass resolutions per their own constitutions to repeal federal laws.
Harder to pass laws? Are you insane? Congress barely manages to pass any laws as it is.
That’s not a function of the structure of congress. It’s a function of the empty suits (and dresses) that we elect to populate it and the behaviors that two extremist parties encourage.
Congress's job is not to pass laws. If they had some sort of quota, it would be fulfilled by naming post offices and freeways.
A 1/2 majority encourages consensus. Why do you hate consensus?
Or if you want to truly be responsive, you could truthfully point out that it would include more back scratching. That you do choose "That is horrible" rather than this simple truth is telling. You'd rather rant than think for 5 seconds.
1/2 ---> 2/3 encourages consensus (and back scratching)
Could you write that comment again? I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.
I think it would be a start if Congress started passing all laws that majorities in both houses actually support, instead of letting some random Senator from pohdunk nowhere prevent it from coming up for a vote because he's the ranking member for ways & means.
You remind me a lot of George III. He too refused to understand anything he disagreed with, and wanted those upstart colonials to listen to their wise masters.
In his defense, he had significant mental health issues for much of his life.
Ways & Means is a House committee, not a senate one.
I's assume he meant that Congress doesn't have to be enacting laws to be doing its job; Their job isn't to enact laws, it's to enact needed laws.
If no new laws are needed, they're doing their job by sitting on their asses.
Nobody is disagreeing with that.
trying to break away from tyranny
Well, trying to break away from something anyway. Let's not get into that right now. This thread has enough delusions about American history as it is.
..as seen from your elevated European perspective.
O, no, it's not a Europe vs. US thing. Plenty of Americans also have a more accurate understanding of their history. That just doesn't include most regular VC commenters.
Accurate as defined by a Europeans with his nose in the air in the presence of the lower class deplorables.
It's pretty facile to just declare our revolution was about freedom from tyranny and leave it at that.
It's a really interesting event and we would do well to study it, not treat it as a myth.
Our Constitution is still the only one in history that constrains the government.
Holy American Exceptionalism Batman!
Do you dispute his assertion or do you just want to vent your anger at America?
Are you kidding me? It's not even wrong.
Yeah that’s what I thought.
Oh, I think there's a very good chance of getting at least a few amendments passed -- provided a Convention can be called. The Constitution absolutely needs some tightening up and clarification. Professor Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia has a very fine book with something like 23 suggested changes, if memory serves.
I forgot to mention that in the absence of additional amendments, we have had to rely on Supreme Court rulings and the administrative state to answer specific issues. Randy Barnett's book of 100 Supreme Court Cases Everyshould Know really opened my eyes, I can tell you. Our journey through the gaps and troughs in the Constitution has not been a smooth one, nor even one that goes in a straight line!
So yes, we would do very well to correct our Constitution. The the state of Virginia where I live, we completely rewrote our Constitution in the 1970s. There's not a thing wrong with fixing things. Let's get to it.
I'd be curious to know why Virginia felt the need to rewrite their constitution and what was so different from the old one that couldn't be remedied by amendment?
Basically to correct the earlier Constitution of 1901 that disenfranchised voters based on race. The Washington Post has a nice writeup here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/07/01/virginia-constitution-black-voting-rights/
Doesn't seem like reason to rewrite the whole thing.
Virginia has had 7 constitutions since 1776. I quite like our current version myself, as well as our Code. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Virginia
Most states have had multiple constitutions. Key to putting that in proper context is that no matter what is in the state's constitution, its residents remain US citizens covered by the federal constitution.
No. You and yours want to use this to increase your power over me. You can take your tightened up constitution and put it in a tight place where the sun don't shine.
The best way to protect your freedom is to minimize the power the Federals have over you.
The constitution as written is enough to do that, but it's been abused and stretched into a "living constitution" over the past 250 years by the ruling elite in their favor and against your freedom.
The quickest route to this is our own Great Reset, in which instead of turning over our lives to global Leftist elites, we simply burn their institutions to the ground beginning with Washington D.C. the moving to the UN headquarters, then salting their Earth in the ashes.
"No. You and yours want to use this to increase your power over me."
Just the opposite, actually. For example, take just the issue of intrastate commerce. In the absence of an amendment that makes it clear what Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 includes and does not include under the power to "regulate commerce", you have the federal government claiming it gives them the legal justification to control all of commerce -- even the commerce within a state! That same ambiguity leads to wildly different interpretations in the courts as well.
The upshot is you are most definitely less free with an ambiguous Constitution.
Passing an amendment to force proper interpretation of the commerce and other clauses would unwind at least 90% of the laws on the books. It would never be passed. All the opponents would have to do is scream SOCIAL SECURITY MEDICARE OBAMACARE.
Yes, as you say, if we narrow the definition to its original meaning it might be difficult to get passed. However, a Convention could just as easily broaden it.
Regardless, there should be no room for ambiguity. We need to know definitively what it means. The same thing goes for terms such as "sex". We need to decide, as a country, what we mean. Otherwise we just invite disregard for the law.
I think you could get an amendment passed that reels in the federal government. No more legislating based on the idea of the general welfare or the commerce clause. Restore the political power pyramid that existed before Wilson. With Fed.gov being the tiny limited top of it. Broadening out to the states, then local, and finally to the people.
It's too late. The tightening you suggest would gut most of what took place from Wilson+FDR onwards, and the country would never stand for that.
We need a constitutional amendment that says some Deep State Douche can't dictate how much water I shit in, or what color my neighbors must be.
You're right, and it's a shame. If we had honest judges, the existing Constitution should've been sufficient to assure your (IMO, fairly reasonable) goals. The post-Civil-Rights-Act Supreme Court cases that said that government restrictions on private property rights, of the kind you decry, were perfectly constitutional were a fucking travesty.
MAGA: "Biden is mean to call us racists and fascists."
Also MAGA: "I am a racist and a fascist."
"Freedom isn’t fascism."
source:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-speech-had-it-all-backward-fascist-democratic-party-trump-ideology-america-jan-6-democracy-11662161065
You omitted the previous sentence: "Mr. Trump and his followers, believe it or not, are essentially antifascists: They want the state to stand aside, to impose the least possible interference and allow market forces and entrepreneurial energies to work."
Apparently the author lives in an alternate reality in which Mr. Trump and his followers don't revere Viktor Orban and Vladimir Putin, in which Trump did not just endorse a MAGA candidate for governor of Massachusetts by promising that the guy would rule the state with an iron fist, in which Trump and his followers did not cheer on war crimes, in which they do not want to compel private companies to distribute their speech, in which they didn't forbid private companies from mask and vaccine mandates, in which they never met a border they didn't want to blockade from goods and labor…
But of course the most important part is that Mr. Trump and his followers do not believe that it is legitimate for anyone except them to be elected.
Districting tends to favor Republicans for the simple reason that their population is more diffuse, whereas Democrat populations tend to be more concentrated in urban areas.
Republicans currently control both chambers of the legislature in 30 states, a number that will quite possibly rise after the next election. Nebraska has a unicameral, nominally non-partisan legislature, but is safely in the Republican column, so we can put the total at 31. Additionally, Republicans control one chamber in Minnesota and Virginia. After the coming elections, we might be approaching the magic number of 38.
But even if, for example, only 30 states ratify, then it's just a matter of waiting. There's always a new election on the horizon.
Our population improves -- becoming less religious, less rural, less bigoted, less backward more diverse -- every day.
There just aren't enough downscale Americans left to give Republicans much chance of turning the tide of the culture war. That battle is not quite over but has been settled.
Reason, modernity, diversity, science, progress, education, fairness, and the reality-based world for the win!
If they meet the 2/3 requirement its not a constitutional crisis because its following the constitution.
Liberals tend to love judicial activism vs following the actual process of changing the constitution
It has always been amusing watching them trip over this. They love a living constitution, reinterpreting plain language. They can't stand the idea of new plain language which would force them to adopt entirely new misinterpretations.
Like in Wonderland, words only mean what Dems want them to mean and only when they want them to.
Must be nice, living in a world where the "plain language" of the constitution always happens to agree with your ideology. Of course, what's plain laguage to you is tortured reading to the rest of us, but, ya know, tomato/tomato.
You might as well just yell about how Marx and Stalin and Hitler were really right.
Like Biden, if the other rest of us are not with your "rest of us", we're deplorable traitors.
Funny, that does not appear to be what he wrote.
Amendments requiring a balanced budget and a 2/3 vote by Congress to raise taxes might be popular enough to be ratified. The effect could be very negative and cause the amendments to be repealed.
How would the effect of a balanced budget be negative?
When combined with a 2/3 requirements to raise taxes, it would cause drastic, and in the end very unpopular spending cuts.
Reality will also require some unpopular budget cuts pretty soon, probably sooner than any balanced budget amendment can be passed. What of it?
Eugene asked what radical amendments could pass 3/4 of the state legislatures. I think these two could and their effect would institute long desired goals of conservatives to shrink the size of the federal government (in a way which, in the end, would be very unpopular).
I believe they would only be unpopular in the short term.
Since when does voter popularity even matter? Congress has a 90% incumbency rate. Regardless of their popularity.
They're so bad just like the Administrative State is so damn evil. They are evil monsters with virtually no way to be held accountable.
You can't use fiscal policy to deal with recessions.
Among other things.
The US is already more disfunctional than Greece. So giving it Greece's budget constraints can't make things any worse.
Being dysfunctional by one metric isn't an invitation to screw up other metrics.
I agree. My previous comment was a poor attempt at sarcasm.
A balanced budget requirement would bankrupt the country. Whether that's a negative or not I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.
Fiscal reality will bankrupt it sooner.
You can't just keep printing money.
Actually, you really can.
I disagree. Many states have such a requirement, and they aren't bankrupt. My state of Virginia requires a balance but allows it to be achieved over a sliding window of time -- I believe it is 3 years. This gives the Assembly some additional time to make up a shortfall.
In my opinion, a federal balanced budget should be the default position, with an exception only for declared war with enemies who have attacked the US or its territories. And Continuing Resolutions -- which are just ways to avoid having to go through normal budgeting process -- ought to be completely outlawed.
However, before we get to any of that, we need to know exactly how much the US spends, on what. Congress has enacted continuing resolutions (CRs) in all but 3 of the last 46 years. We haven't known our own budget -- not really -- since the end of the Vietnam War.
I feel like any sliding window will be abused the same way that "deficit neutral over 10 years" rules always is.
The only reason why US states can have a balanced budget requirement is that they are de facto bailed out by the Federal government constantly. Sometimes explicitly, usually just because of the Federal welfare system.
The country has been bankrupt since Nixon reneged on the Bretton Woods treaty.
-jcr
What if the country was bankrupt and nobody noticed...?
Everyone seems to forget that an amendment that becomes truly unpopular can be repealed by a further amendment as in the case of prohibition.
" By the way, the New York Times article does mention the 38-state ratification requirement—in the 24th out of 28 paragraphs. "
Publication pointers from a writer who simply disregards politically inconvenient information, instead engaging in misleading cherry-picking with sides of hypocrisy and censorship?
This blog couldn't jump high enough to reach the Times' ankles.
...and yet you still read and comment.
This is a marketplace of ideas. No free swings.
Also, I like mocking right-wing culture war casualties. I believe it is the right thing to do.
It is true that NYT goes to great lengths to keep conservative views off its pages -- e.g., it's had nothing good to say about Donald Trump since he became the Republican nominee -- but I wouldn't call it "censorship," just partisanship.
And yes, there's hypocrisy aplenty in any given NYT opinion piece or news article.
But, in this case, what Prof. Volokh is pointing out is that they're being intellectually dishonest (by "hiding the ball," so to speak).
This blog is expert with respect to hiding the ball. The Conspirators just ignore anything that is political inconvenient for right-wing partisans.
These white, male, right-winger prefer cherry-picked nipping at betters' ankles.
And partisan polemics, wrapped in a slight, receding academic veneer.
And hypocrisy. With a touch of censorship, of course.
Not everyone sees it this way, though. Just ask John Eastman, Jeffrey Bossert Clark, Ted Cruz, or Alex Kozinski what they think of the Volokh Conspiracy.
Both are longshots, but two amendments I could see passing are:
1) Making Christianity the official religion of the US.
2) Making English the official language.
I see them possibly passing mainly due to the potential for demagogic ads making it hard for elected officials to vote against them.
1. Would require the repeal of the First Amendment, so not likely.
2. Could be accomplished by an act of Congress.
Yes, constitutional amendment can amend older amendments.
Not without the new amendment providing for removing the old one.
Isn't new amendments what this whole conversation is about? It wouldn't need to explicitly repeal the 1st or any part of it, the new amendment would simply prevail wherever it conflicts with the existing text by virtue of being newer, just as past amendment have (such as the 12th and the 17th)
I don’t think the first one would make it. I’ve attended a Christian church for a long time and I’d pressure my representatives to vote against it. We don’t need a national religion. We don’t need to make people of other religions uncomfortable to practice what they believe. And heaven knows we don’t need slimy dishonest amoral politicians preaching at us under the guise of government blessing.
1) Might have had a ghost of a chance fifty years ago. America has already gone too secular for it to have any chance today. Bad idea in any case.
But contrary to Mr. Bumble, it would not require repeal of the 1st amendment. Later amendments override earlier amendments, so just ratifying it would be enough, and it would still leave any parts of the 1st amendment it didn't contradict in effect.
However, (And appropriately so here!) the Devil is in the details.
2) Much more likely to succeed, as the public have now had a serious exposure to the problems of becoming a multi-lingual polity with large minorities who don't speak the common language. "Press 2 for English"...
First, I don't see the great difficulty in pressing a button on my phone.
Second, I don't see how making English the "official language" would solve whatever difficulties there are. People are still going to speak whatever language they want to, and businesses are still going to try to cater to those whose primary language is Spanish, or something else.
No, the actual problem is that if you have groups within a nation that don't speak the same language, you no longer have one polity. As seen by the number of politicians caught saying contradictory things on English media and Spanish media.
Politicians saying different things to different groups in English is fine though. Lol.
You really think language changes the nature of these people that will say anything to keep their power and perks?
Then the problem would be met by stamping out and prohibiting the other languages, which is hardly the behaviour of anyone who claims to cherish personal liberty and freedom of speech.
As if politicians would stop saying different things to different people if everyone spoke English.
Besides, do you propose to outlaw Spanish media as part of your "official language" law?
What would such a law imply, anyway, besides being a slap in the face to Hispanics or anyone else with a primary language other than English?
I would suppose an "official language" law would require that all government interactions with the public be in English, perhaps require English proficiency as a requirement of immigrating here.
You’d probably want to outlaw Telemundo as well. Can’t have that godless language taking up valuable bandwidth.
You know who you sound like? A fucking snooty Québécois.
You can say "This is the OFFICIAL language" and not bar all other languages.
I would suppose an "official language" law would require that all government interactions with the public be in English, perhaps require English proficiency as a requirement of immigrating here.
Yeah. Let's make it hard for some people to interact with the government. The bigotry really shines through that one.
perhaps require English proficiency as a requirement of immigrating here.
And this one. Einstein's English wasn't that great when he came here.
Are you maybe confusing a discussion of what the implications would be, with a discussion of whether it would be a good idea?
So, just more nativism then.
Nativism that pretends that Puerto Rico doesn't exist!
"But contrary to Mr. Bumble, it would not require repeal of the 1st amendment. Later amendments override earlier amendments, so just ratifying it would be enough, and it would still leave any parts of the 1st amendment it didn't contradict in effect."
Not sure I agree on that . The 21st Amendment's first clause repealed the 18th Amendment. I think the same would need to be done to establish the US as a Christian nation, which would never fly.
The 21st did more than just repeal the 18th.
I'm missing your point or you're missing mine.
That first one didn't fly even back in the 1780's when the country was overwhelmingly Christian and separation of church and state wasn't a long-established tradition. Today it's questionable whether you could even get a majority of Republicans to sign on.
The second one will die for the same reason the ERA did: the claims of its own supporters. The ERA text only said government can't discriminate, but the supporters said it would somehow magically result in equal pay by private employers, eliminate male chauvism, etc. It was clear they intended to use it as an open-ended government power to make life fair,
And that's what would happen with an official English amendment. The text would say something that doesn't seem like a big change: e.g. laws and court decisions must be in English. But then the supporters will publicly salivate how this will clear the streets of all those immigrants, restore traditional American culture, and prevent the white genocide. Normal people will get spooked at that will sink it.
You'd also have to create a government church, because there are too many different Christian religions.
Or maybe we could vote on it every four years. Do it in the midterms to keep Presidential elections separate and to increase the number of midterm voters.
Now that would be fun. Having religions campaigning for our votes.
First step, ballot access to prove your sect is even Christian at all. Second step, primaries to narrow it down. Maybe one primary for religions where they do robes and headgear, another primary for religions where they do suits and good hair.
1) Making Christianity the official religion of the US.
How could you tell the difference?
Filling in for Queen almathea today?
Go ahead, answer the question.
Well, we've never expelled Jews like most of your European neighbors throughout history.
Even assuming that that's accurate as a historical matter, what is it about making Christianity the official religion of the US that would make expelling Jews possible?
For someone who screams incessantly about rabid conservatives, your imagination has failed you for once.
Go ahead, answer the question.
There is no widespread support for such an amendment and a two hundred plus year history opposed toit.
You think yours is the only country that supports freedom of religion?
Guess he didn't want to go ahead and answer the question.
You're still not telling me what such a hypothetical amendment would do, if it was passed. Whether it would have any chance of passing is a different question, and frankly a much less interesting one.
You know Martin, the more I see what you say about America the more I see that you don’t know a damn thing about it. Not really. Your perception of this place is a politically warped cartoon full of stick figures.
Does he see a nation that jammed silly superstition into its Pledge of Allegiance, flattering gullibility by indoctrinating children with nonsense at the beginning of school days?
Does he see a nation that put straight-up nonsense onto its currency, again to flatter the gullible and reality-challenged?
Does he see a nation that still has more than its fair share of racists, gay-haters, misogynists, xenophobes, and gullible rubes?
America is a great because it tends to overcome its mistakes, bigotry, backwardness, superstition, and ignorance -- and the vestigial losers who still cling to obsolete thinking -- not because it is perfect. Those who identify and seek to diminish its flaws should be thanked. Those who seek to preserve its shortcomings should be and are being replaced by better Americans.
I'm always happy to learn from someone with a proper grasp of reality like you!
No you’re not. You don’t want to hear anything that would shake your sense of superiority
I think he almost literally cannot read any comment here which doesn't support him. His brain scrambles them into gibberish and he doesn't even try.
Why should we bother giving examples? You've shown over and over in this thread that you won't listen to anything that challenges your anti-US prejudice or bias.
Because your rants would become even more ranty.
Don't most EU countries have state religions?
No. Off the top of my head only the England has an established church. (Whether Scotland does is a more difficult question.)
Many EU countries have references to religions in their constitutions (typically the catholics), but that's not the same as having a "state religion". Then again, I'm not sure that I understand what you guys mean by a state religion, which is why I was asking.
What about Vatican City?
It has an established city.
Not an EU country.
True enough; I sort of skimmed over the topic and was thinking "European" rather than "EU." But, as DRM says, Denmark does, and arguably other Nordic countries.
The only one that indisputably has one is Denmark. From an American perspective, you could argue that Cyprus, Finland, Greece, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden do, too, which would get you to 9 of 27 EU members.
1) Making Christianity the official religion of the US.
2) Making English the official language.
Two very different things. As others have pointed out 1) is a no starter for lots of reasons and I doubt it even has majority support.
As I pointed out earlier in a post English as the official language was mentioned back in the day by Newt and was polling at 80%+; maybe not that high now but I have no doubt it has majority support.
While pressing 1 for English is the headliner the real issue is what happens when ballots are only printed in English, not to mention a lot of welfare stuff is only in English as well; same goes for tests for driver's licenses and a host of other stuff needed for employment. Same goes for legal documents like contracts, insurance, and wills.
Like it or not English as the official language would bring a sea change in American life.
These are troll/jokes, one presumes.
"What amendments do you think a convention could propose that would get the support of legislatures or conventions in at least 38 of the 50 states, and how conservative (or liberal) do you think those amendments would be?"
The crux of this important (but strangely ignored) question is what Constitutional provisions could gather all but 12 states support; which effectively means that a proponent could ignore the 12 most liberal or 12 most conservative states. For the sake of argument, I will say the first group is {CA, NY, IL, MA, VT, HI, RI, CT, WA, NJ, OR, MD} and the second group is {WY, WV, OK, ND, ID, AK, KY, AL, SD, TN, LA, UT}. My selection is based on the percentage of the popular vote for the Democrats in 2020.
You will immediately see the Democrats have a far greater problem with a Constitutional Convention than the GOP. Because of the sheer number of small conservative states, the left would need to carry many states that are distinctly GOP leaning in order to get to 38 -- in addition to TX, FL and OH, they'd need AL, IN and MS, among others. This shouldn't be a surprise. No Democrat has carried more than 32 states since Johnson in '64. As a result, I doubt that the Democrats could accomplish anything via Constitutional Convention. No revision that would be of interest to the DNC leadership would have any chance of making it to 38 states. (Note that there are a few carefully moderated proposals, like a 12 week abortion right, that might command a majority of the population in enough states, but which would never be palatable to the leadership.) I don't think the Democrats could get any form of Electoral College tinkering through because there are too many small GOP-leaning states that would be giving up Presidential vote position, even if the DNC could convince all of their 'under 4 EC votes' states to go along.
On the GOP side, however, the bellweather states they would need to carry include MN, CO, NM, NV and NH. As Professor Volokh points out, that would eliminate extreme revisions. Nonetheless, because of the location and nature of these key 'historically purple' states, I think they potentially could get three types of amendments passed: (1) 'clean up' versions of the Second Amendment designed to eliminate future mischief in that area; (2) federalism-style amendments designed to clarify the limits of Congressional power over the states in some [mostly limited] areas; and (3) term limits for US government officials (including both elected officials and judges).
Thus, I think the real action in a Constitutional Convention would focus on procedural revisions to the Constitution, as opposed to substantive rights. And because of the sheer number of smaller, conservative states, the only revisions that have a chance of passing are those that limit federal power in some manner.
Publius_2020 — Utterly unrealistic. What you hypothesize is a constitutional convention rigged by the pre-existing order, which will somehow remain magically sacrosanct through a proceeding run on the basis of plenary power to replace it.
When the gavel falls to open the convention, every provision of the existing Constitution—and every influence it could be presumed to have at the new convention itself—goes up for grabs. Without question, the very first crisis a Republican-organized convention would face would be a demand for a nationwide popular vote for ratification.
Probably, that would wreck the proceeding before anything else happened. Possibly, delegates pretending to speak for a majority of states, but a minority of the national population, would pretend to continue, while the others walked out. The result would call continuing legitimacy for the existing constitution into grave doubt, while failing to replace it with anything representing a consensus reached by both sides.
Not sure I am buying into the 'take my football and go home' working out as you claim. While there are rules for a quorum in some forums I am not sure they exist in a constitutional convention. If the liberals did walk out it would only make more conservative proposals easier to pass.
I also am under the opinion that no matter what happened the losers would question the legitimacy of any constitutional convention.
Maybe more importantly I doubt there will ever be a constitutional convention.
I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying the Convention is going to try and pass an Amendment saying that 3/4ths of the state legislatures don't have to ratify it? That certainly seems totally far-fetched. If that's anything like the "plan", I doubt you'd get even the necessary 2/3rds of states to even call for the Convention in the first place.
Why? Because it's a stupid strategy, guaranteed to break up the Convention and send everyone home. What's the point in calling it, then? What could such a stupid plan hope to accomplish?
I'll grant you our current crop of politicians aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, as they say, but this seems like a complete non-starter to me.
Not only far-fetched, not (legally) possible. Article V stipulates that any amendments proposed at such a convention must be ratified by 3/4ths of the states, no more, no less.
Interestingly, such a convention is also explicitly barred from re-apportioning the Senate (although I suppose a convention could propose an amendment to repeal that limitation, and, once its ratified, call a second convention to re-apportion the Senate)
That IS what they did with the original Convention that produced the Constitution. But it's worth remembering that the Articles of Confederation were only a few years old at the time, hadn't had time to put down roots, and it was widely agreed that they just weren't working out.
You simply can't rule out a Convention attempting to junk the Constitution, the way the Articles got junked; The rules can't prevent people from agreeing to adopt different rules, because when they do that, they don't CARE what the old rules were. But the Constitution is way too popular at this point for it to be a real threat.
I will say the first group is {CA, NY, IL, MA, VT, HI, RI, CT, WA, NJ, OR, MD} and the second group is {WY, WV, OK, ND, ID, AK, KY, AL, SD, TN, LA, UT}.
It is illuminating to check those lists against these lists.
For those who do not wish to follow the link: Poorly educated states and the ignorant, can't-keep-up residents of those states incline Republican.
+1 insightful
they still have to be ratified by legislatures or conventions (the convention gets to decide which) in 3/4 of all states
Doesn't Congress, not the convention, get to decide? The Constitution says when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress
There are a whole bunch of unknowns:
(1) What happens if 34 states call for a convention and leaders of the US House or Senate decide not to bring it to a vote?
(2) What happens if they do bring it to a vote but it does not get a majority of both houses?
(3) Who decides how many delegates each state gets to send?
(3) Who decides how those delegates are selected?
(4a) Will the convention itself reject delegates if a state sends too many, or if it believed they weren't selected "properly"? (4b) What happens if two competing sets of delegates show up from a single state?
(5) Can federal courts rule on the inevitable convention-related cases that will be brought to them?
(6a) Does the convention make its own rules of order? (6b) Is there even a default set of rules for Day One? (Many of us have no particular respect for Roberts' Rules.)
(7a) Can the calls from the states specify what topics are up for discussion? (7b) Can states bind their delegates to certain topics?
(8) And as you point out, does the convention or Congress decide on the method of ratification and the time limit for ratification?
For 1 and 2 I don't think Congress has the option of not bringing it up, or even putting it to a vote that may fail. It simply says "The Congress...shall call a convention"
History says Congress has the option of refusing to do something. In fact, it's my expectation that, should enough states call for a convention, Congress will simply refuse to admit it. What's in a convention for them? Any amendments they actually wanted they could originate themselves, it can only produce amendments they DON'T want, that's its very purpose.
But there comes a point where you want the constitutional crisis to be out in the open.
One non-partisan amendment I would lie to see is doing away with the Electoral College rigmarole.
I'm not talking about doing away with the EC, which I would like but would have a hard time passing, but changing the procedures. Why all the nonsense of actual electors and whatnot? Just send the certified results to Congress, have the VP read them and announce the official winner. Or maybe the Chief Justice should do that.
Stop worrying about rogue electors and certification votes and so on.
Maybe we can get a bi-partisan group to support the "Make the Math Automatic" amendment?
Would states still get to decide how their electoral votes are allocated? Winner take all, by Congressional district plus two at-large, proportional representation, or maybe no popular vote at all?
I would like to see the votes split by proportion to the statewide popular vote (fractions allowed) with a minimum of 20% to get any votes. The small states still get more votes but the purple states lose their power (as they should).
You understand that a 20% minimum works completely differently in California than in Wyoming, right?
Why wouldn't it work the same?
Because a 20% minimum for a state that only has three electors does nothing, while a 20% minimum for any state with more than 5 electors takes away electors from any candidate who has more than 1/e votes - where e is that state's number of electors - but less than 20%.
But Josh R said he's allowing fractions. If Wyoming was split R 50 D 25 C 25, their electoral vote would be 1.5 R, 0.75 D, 0.75 C.
You're right, apologies.
You're thinking how parliaments are allocated in Europe, where reps are people and the answer is necessarily an integer.
There would be no electors under his scheme, and no need to restrict the result to integers.
A wit might suggest that fractional electors would be perfectly acceptable.
Of course states get to decide that. Specifically the state legislatures. As dictated by the constitution.
Yeah, but we're talking about an amendment. I imagine the same people that want to eliminate the electors would have other aspects they'd like to tinker with.
If you want 38 states, you'll either need "good government" nonpartisan reforms or propositions which are actually popular in the country.
As for the latter, you might be able to get one on the "right to healthcare." It's one area where the voters realize how much the current system sucks, and hey, at least the left has *something,* while righties are divided or act like they don't care.
But I don't think the NYT is worried about *that.* They might like it. But they're worried about the *other* kind of popular amendments, the kind that the managerial class hates.
They probably fear some kind of "anti-immigrant" amendment, i. e., that crashing the country's gates don't confer constitutional rights. The managerial elite would hate it but it would probably be popular among the rubes.
Or term limits. Not quite as popular but a real "danger" from the standpoint of the NYT.
Maybe something about the debt or the budget. ("Too simplistic, we have everything under control, trust us!")
Much like conviction upon impeachment, broad popular support woill be required to pass any amendment, not matter how it is proposed.
I think they fear anything that takes away power from the federal government and devolves it to the states, something liberal states might even get behind. This would include anything that limits the power of federal judges to impose their diktats. For example, in Canada the Parliament can override the Supreme Court under the "notwithstanding clause" (Section 33) of its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It would do so by, for example, passing legislation that began, "Notwithstanding the Supreme Court decision in..." That legislation would be valid for five years (the maximum amount of time between elections) and would then have to be renewed; otherwise, the legislation would expire. (I'm not necessarily advocating something like that, just using it as an illustration).
And, as you note, I think they have congressional term limits and a balanced budget amendment are two things the NYT would not like.
The real threat of a convention from the left's perspective is that any successful use of Article V would utterly decimate the left's "Article V is broken!" argument for living constitutionalism.
Also, it would produce popular amendments, and are any of the changes to the Constitution the left wants actually popular? Seems not.
My proposed amendments:
A: Procedure is substance.
1) Regularly scheduled constitutional conventions, with Congress entirely cut out of the loop. Perhaps every 20 years? This would resolve the real problem with Article V, which is on the origination, not ratification, end of things. 43 years since Congress last originated a constitutional amendment.
2) A "stomp all over the enrolled bill doctrine" amendment, requiring all congressional votes to be roll call, and of no effect absent a quorum, and adding certain procedural protections, such as that the full text of bills be published in searchable form a minimum of a month before final passage, barring a substantial supermajority vote for emergencies.
3) A single subject amendment to put an end to omnibus bills.
4) All laws sunsetted after 10 years.
5) Nominees would be considered confirmed if not given an up/down vote in the Senate within 6 months of nomination, unless an election took place within those 6 months. After the first two months a motion to hold that vote would become a privileged motion.
B: Structural changes
6) A Chamber of Repeal. Members would be elected in odd numbered years, and any law they voted to repeal would expire in a month barring a supermajority "saving" vote in the House and Senate. The Chamber of Repeal would have the power to declare violations of the single subject rule.
7) Transfer the Senate's power to confirm Supreme court nominees to a body composed of all the states' governors. This would partially undo the effects of the 17th amendment in promoting aggrandizement of the federal government.
This would resolve the real problem with Article V, which is on the origination, not ratification, end of things.
That strikes me as a claim that would require, at a minimum, more evidence than what you have provided. Presumably Congress doesn't propose amendments that it doesn't think would pass the states, so you can't count Congress's activity alone to substantiate that claim.
2) How about something to make sure things actually come up for a vote?
3) Fair enough. The problem has traditionally been who enforces that. Here in the UK that's the speaker, but the US Congress doesn't have such a person.
4) 10 years is too short. How about 25?
5) Works for me.
6) Works for me, except the thing about the single subject rule. Your Chamber of Repeal would be partisan, and the whole problem with the single subject rule is to find a non-partisan arbiter for it.
7) What's so special about Supreme court nominees, that they should be tied to state governments more than all other officials?
"Presumably Congress doesn't propose amendments that it doesn't think would pass the states, so you can't count Congress's activity alone to substantiate that claim."
I would presume that they neither propose amendments they don't think would pass the states, (Amendments THEY want, but don't want formally rejected!) nor amendments they fear would pass the states, because they don't want them even though they're popular.
I believe the problem is that a serious disconnect has grown up between the general population's notions of how the Constitution might profitably be amended, and Congress's preferences in that area. Cut them out of the loop, and you'd likely get a bunch of amendments that were generally popular, but not with Congress.
Brett that's too many changes, with an unknown effect for a conservative.
First of all the chamber of repeal is superfluous if legislation sunsets in 10 years, besides a chamber of repeal sets up a power struggle between 2 legislative branches, with one racing to pass legislation that lasts 30 days, and the other racing to repeal it.
Allowing nominees to take office without being confirmed would be a big power shift towards the president, A minority can be quite effective in blocking any action, including a down vote. You think we'd be better off if Biden's ATF nominees were allowed to take office without a vote?
Here is my proposals:
A. Interstate commerce shall not be construed to encompass the exchange of finished goods, or commodities, and services that do not cross state lines.
B. If both houses of Congress disapprove of a executive order, or regulation, it shall be nullified.
C. Spending which increases the deficit shall require 60% of each house to pass.
D. The Supreme Court consists of 9 justices that shall serve 18 year terms that shall expire July of odd numbered years. Justices may not be renominated to another term after serving a full term, or a partial term lasting more than 9 years.
" minority can be quite effective in blocking any action, including a down vote."
"After the first two months a motion to hold that vote would become a privileged motion."
#3 is a terrible idea. Anyone who has seen that rule in operation at the state level knows that it just empowers courts at the expense of legislatures, which seems like pretty much the opposite of what you might want.
Whether a law passes muster is at the whim of judges, deciding whether two provisions are the same "subject" or not.
One would guess more than 3/4 of states, including both Democratic and Republican controlled, have had times in last 20 years when they objected to federal funding conditions, particularly in education. You'd think an amendment limiting such conditions to things Congress could legislate directly would have a chance.
However, things are so hate-driven now that California's anger about how Texas runs its schools probably outweighs their desire to control their own, and vice versa.
Since Brett Bellmore made a good faith attempt to propose some amendments, without focusing only on the "would this pass?" aspect, let me have a go.
I think the US needs to be a lot more federalist. That means an honest effort to devolve power to the states again. (Re-volve?) Some suggestions along those lines:
1) Something along the lines of "we really meant it when we said interstate", as already suggested above. (And a review of the rest of Article I(8) as well.) Get rid of Federal social welfare, Federal criminal law, etc. Setting fire to a federal building can be prosecuted just fine in state court.
2) Abolishing the non-commandeering principle. As the EU and Germany both show, the states are better off if their people enforce federal law, instead of having federal officials all up in their business.
3) Introduce EU-style directives, which allow the Federal government to order the states to make certain laws, while leaving the details to them. Again, paradoxically letting the Feds give orders to the states results in less Federal law and more power for the states.
4) Repeal the 17th amendment. But at the same time shift most of the Senate's power to the House. You can't let the Senate be as powerful if it is now if Senators are not democratically elected. That's just not OK in 2022.
4a) In Germany the upper house isn't elected by state legislatures, but actually consists of state prime ministers. I'm not sure if it would be workable to create a Senate that consists of the governor and the secretary of state of each state, but it would sure incentivise them to keep their Washington politicking to a minimum.
Dialling the level of federalism way up requires some safeguards:
5) The dormant commerce clause needs to be dialled way up as well. The states are over-regulated as it is, because state legislatures are much easier to lobby/bribe than the Feds. A big part of the time the purpose of such regulation is clearly to keep out-of-state competition out.
6) A Federal ban on state aid. States and cities competing about who can give Amazon the most money is an embarrassment and a waste of taxpayer money. This is something the Feds need to police.
7) Some rules that put teeth on the Republican form of government clause. Elected judges are an embarrassment. State-level gerrymandering is even worse than gerrymandering for the House. And the Federal government doesn't even pretend to enforce the 14th amendment against the states anymore. You can't let the states call all the shots without making sure they actually obey the constitution.
Get rid of Federal social welfare, Federal criminal law, etc.
You mean end Medicare and SS? Seems insane to me.
And what happens when someone violates federal law? They get a nasty letter telling them not to do it again?
Repeal the 17th amendment.
This 17th Amendment business just seems completely irrational. I see no benefit to repeal, all the yapping about federal power notwithstanding. What I do see is gerrymandered legislatures making the government even less democratic by denying the voters the right to choose their Senators, and the whole process controlled by political insiders and their cronies. Repeal is absurd.
But at the same time shift most of the Senate's power to the House. You can't let the Senate be as powerful if it is now if Senators are not democratically elected. That's just not OK in 2022.
shift most of the Senate's power to the House.
OK.
A Federal ban on state aid.
Assume you mean state aid to get businesses to relocate. I generally agree that most of that is a waste, but maybe not all. I see no way to enforce it.
Some rules that put teeth on the Republican form of government clause. Elected judges are an embarrassment. State-level gerrymandering is even worse than gerrymandering for the House. And the Federal government doesn't even pretend to enforce the 14th amendment against the states anymore. You can't let the states call all the shots without making sure they actually obey the constitution.
I hope you mean republican. Otherwise largely agree.
You mean end Medicare and SS? Seems insane to me.
Democracy means that voters should get exactly what they vote for, right between the eyes. They can adopt welfare states at the state level if they like.
And what happens when someone violates federal law? They get a nasty letter telling them not to do it again?
What Federal law would be left that would be enforced by criminal laws? Remember, I'm not proposing to dismantle things like the SEC, which clearly satisfy the interstate commerce criterion.
Assume you mean state aid to get businesses to relocate. I generally agree that most of that is a waste, but maybe not all. I see no way to enforce it.
Financial support to get businesses to relocate, or to stop them from going bankrupt when they're clearly not viable, etc. And why wouldn't it be enforceable? The European Commission does a pretty good job of enforcing exactly that law, and has done for decades. I didn't make that point up out of thin air.
You literally gave as your one example a law that doesn't rely on the interstate commerce power!
And obviously I can't say for sure without seeing your proposed amendment , but it seems like mainstays of the federal criminal docket like the Controlled Substances Act, the Hobbs Act, and § 922(g) would be safe—maybe you'd narrow the elements a bit, but not in a way that would affect the outcome of most cases.
Really? I'm too lazy to check, but what is the legal basis of the Security and Exchange Act if not the interstate commerce clause?
And no, I would definitely do away with Federal drugs legislation (or at least demote it to something that can only be done by directive).
The argument about the 17th Amendment is that appointment or election of Senators by a state legislature gives an incentive too respect state powers and sovereignty.
We don't need the federal government to be even more majoritarian and whim-driven, which is what we would get by shifting power to the House of Representatives.
Well, the US federal government could hardly be less majoritarian. Actually getting something done every once in a while might clear away some of the cobwebs.
Stupidest thing you’ve said today which is really saying something. The US government could easily be more majoritarian. Could be a politburo.
A politburo does what it likes regardless of the wishes of the majority. So it's not majoritarian at all, by definition.
Do you think the US executive branch should go back to the spoils system of appointments to increase majoritarianism and how easy it is for a new administration to implement its preferred policies?
Or did you forget that we're literally arguing over the wisdom of repealing the majoritarian 17th Amendment?
I don't think elected judges are a very good idea, but I'm not sure I see how they're anti-Republican.
(1) is good.
(2) is good and one I hadn't ever thought of.
(3) Nah. You are thinking, I believe, that having the feds issue a mandate to the states results in state bureaucrats rather than federal bureaucrats filling in the details, and thus "paradoxically" more local control. But our Congress can't help but write 600 page bills, and they would insist on having a federal agency micromanage the state, very much like they already do with the state EPAs. Unless that was forbidden this one would not help at all.
(4) Yes on repeal of the 17th. Rather than neuter the Senate authority like the UK and to some extent Canada did, I think it would be sufficient to say they have to vote on every bill passed by the house, unamended, and 50%+1 passes. The combination of the repeal and the required vote would strengthen states but also reduce the (incorrect) perception that one senator is holding up the whole country. Once there is a vote people would understand it's not Joe Manchin that doesn't want it. It's 51 senators that happen to include Joe Manchin.
(5) How about a rule that if either the state, or the federal government, has a law specifically permitting a particular commercial transaction, then it is permitted.
(6) I like the idea, the details would be tough to police. Outright cash payments, sure. But how about building a road that serves a shopping center? Most roads are built to enable development, and motivations are often a mix of legitimate and venal.
(7) Meh. Reading Short Circuit it's hard to say unelected judges do a better job than elected. And I think any discussion of gerrymandering needs to start with a theory of representation rather than a general whine that it doesn't give the exact same results as a PR system.
Our current president, as some before him, prattles on about the "independence" of the Justice Department, though no one really believes him. Nevertheless, an "independent Justice Department" is contrary to the constitutional design anyway, which make the Attorney General as independent as the Secretary of Transportation.
Today, the attorney general is popularly elected in 43 states. (In five he is a gubernatorial appointee, in one he is selected by the state supreme court, and in one he is chosen by the legislature). In the Early Republic, most (if not all) states appointed their attorney general, but changed over time.
I would propose a constitutional amendment creating a truly independent Justice Department, headed by an Attorney General elected to a four-year term, with those elections held in the even-numbered years between presidential elections.
Nevertheless, an "independent Justice Department" is contrary to the constitutional design anyway, which make the Attorney General as independent as the Secretary of Transportation.
So where does it say that either one has to obey the President?
The Attorney General, like all Cabinet officers, serve at the "pleasure of the President" and can be fired by him at any time. Or, at least, that's what our courts have consistently held for nearly 200 years or so, and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon.
The Opinion Clause, which you cite, has been subject to virtually no attention by scholars or courts. Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist 74, called it a "mere redundancy". I might suggest it just further emphasizes the point that the President was no "prime minister" or a "first among equals" among Cabinet officers, but truly the sole top executive.
The Attorney General, like all Cabinet officers, serve at the "pleasure of the President"
Yes, I get that, but then I'm not the one invoking the "constitutional design", by which I took you to refer to some kind of originalist argument. Hence the question: Where does it say that?
Are you just being pedantic? I have no idea what you are taking issue with.
Either the Constitution was designed to place the President above his Cabinet officers, allowing him to fire them at will, or it wasn't. We have more than a century of court decisions stating that it was.
If the President can fire the Attorney General, the Attorney General is not independent. Please tell me if there is something in the preceding sentence that you dispute or do not understand.
In this particular instance my issue is with originalism as a method for constitutional interpretation. If that's not you, then we have no disagreement. Wouldn't that be nice for a change?
-President Ulysses S. Grant, First Annual Message to Congress (Dec. 6, 1869)
What school of constitutional interpretation is President Grant using here? Is he wrong?
In other words, you concede it doesn’t do that. Was the constitution designed to ensure the president could fire cabinet officers in the same way it was designed to protect (say) abortion and trans rights?
After all, the whole point of the Johnson impeachment was that Johnson had fired a cabinet officer in a manner not authorized by Congress. He barely got off because it was considered to minor a matter to remove him. But surely you can’t suggest that the majority-but-not-two-thirds-majority that voted to remove saw the Constitution as “designed” to authorize what hw did!
If this is so because I say it so, then if I’n a broccoli farmer and there’s a law that would make my life harder, I can just say the constitution was designed to promote the cultivation of brocolli and be done with it. It’s so because I say it’s so.
No, I would argue the Congress passed a blatantly unconstitutional law with the specific intent of having the president break it, so it could then impeach him for "breaking the law".
The President's right to fire executive officials is implicit in the constitutional design of separation of powers. The phrase "separation of powers" does not, of course, appear in the Constitution, but the concept is nonetheless apparent.
Article 2:
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.
If the President has the executive power he can fire inferior officers.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1614&context=jcl
"the Originalist Myth of the Unitary Executive"
Both Executive Power Vesting Clauses and clauses equivalent to Article II’s Faithful Execution Clause were prevalent in early state constitutions that nonetheless fractured gubernatorial control over state bureaucracies. Originalist defenders of a unitary executive reading of the federal Constitution nonetheless dismiss the interpretive significance of the pre-1787 state constitutions.
These early texts supposedly paid only lip service to separation of powers principles, while presenting the Framers chiefly with examples of government structure to avoid. The core problem
with this originalist stance is that state constitutions written in the first decades after 1789 persisted in using the same clauses, now found also in Article II, to describe state governments in which governors continued to lack unitary control. Close study of the state constitutions and state administrative practice under them thus belie any “unitary executive” reading of Article II that
purports to be based on “original public meaning.” These findings are also consistent with the early history of federal public administration, which corroborates a common understanding that
Article II’s vesting of executive power permitted substantial legislative control over the allocation of decisional authority within the executive branch.
I'd say that's hardly dispositive. Maybe they used different words in the state constitutions because they wanted it to mean different things.
"Every state chose to answer these questions in different ways based on distinctive local experiences, but in most cases colonial traditions were continued, but modified, so that the GOVERNOR (the executive) lost significant power, while the ASSEMBLIES (the legislative branch, which represented the people most directly) became much more important. We'll focus on the new rules created in three states to suggest the range of answers to the question about how to organize republican governments based upon popular rule.
John Adams (1735-1826)
John Adams remarked that the Pennsylvania constitution of 1776 was "so democratical that it must produce confusion and every evil work." He would be elected to the Presidency in 1796.
Pennsylvania created the most radical state constitution of the period. Following the idea of popular rule to its logical conclusion, Pennsylvania created a state government with several distinctive features."
https://www.ushistory.org
I think trying to too many lessons from state constitutions where they were clawing back power from the former royally appointed governors.
But I think the clinching argument is the take care clause, how can the President take care to faithfully execute the laws, when he has no control over the attorney general Postmaster, or other cabinet officers. If he has responsibility to enforce the law, he needs to have authority to see that its done.
Why?
I'd love to vote against that amendment if it comes - no, we don't need a plural executive, which is what this would be. One President is quite enough without splitting the executive power.
New York went from an appointed attorney general to a popularly elected one in 1847; Delaware in 1897; Massachusetts in 1855; Virginia in 1877; Pennsylvania in 1980; Connecticut in 1843... (you can spot the trend).
43 states have adopted this model because most people don't find the idea of all executive power concentrated in one individual as attractive as you do.
OK, if your argument is that the states are doing it, did anyone study to see if the outcomes were better?
The fact that none have reversed course suggests they certainly think so. Obviously, no system is perfect, but the advantages of having an attorney general independent of the chief executive are self-evident, particularly when it comes to the issue of corruption within the executive branch.
Nah, it leaves too much of a possibility of a power struggle where you have an ambitious AG gunning for the President.
You could have the AG nominated by a vote of the Supreme Court to make it somewhat removed from political hurly burly.
" Our current president, as some before him, prattles on about the "independence" of the Justice Department, though no one really believes him. "
I hope you are not a lawyer, not even in one of the can't-keep-up jurisdictions.
A serious convention could be a way for the different political viewpoints to hammer out their differences and reach a compromise of a sort that was done in the original. It’s pretty clear people want the federal government to do considerably more than was done in 1792, but don’t want it to do evegythhing. Updating the constitution could restore legitimacy. We wouldn’t have to pretend that regulating potted plants in home windowsills is interstate commerce. We could simply authorize the federal government to regulate things like the environment and the internet. At the same time, we could rein in the federal government where there is consensus it has gone too far.
Since some others have posted their radical proposals while admitting they'd have no chance of getting ratified:
How about returning to the idea that the Senate represents states, and the House represents people, but doing it on steroids and using modern capabilities:
1. Not only repeal the 17th, but make Senators literally representatives of state governments. The states through their own constitutions would decide how they were selected, what terms they serve, pay them, and have mechanisms for recalling them. Some states could leave it more or less how it is now, others could have their senators nervously calling home for "instructions" twice a day.
2. On the House, go in the opposite direction: no relation to the states, no geographic districts, no elected seats at all. Instead, each adult citizen gets a voucher they can assign or reassign online anytime they like. Any person who crosses a 600,000 voucher threshold becomes a member of the House. They remain a member of the House until they drop below 400,000.
Advantages: every person can have a representative they personally support. If a rep really misbehaves their supporters can blast them off the floor more or less immediately. And imagine how responsive to your concerns your rep will be when they're hovering around 401,000 and you call to say you're a bit disappointed.
I actually like these proposals, but they would only ever work in tandem, and #2 absolutely has to be limited to the boundaries of a state, they can't be country-wide. (If you make it at-large across the country, states with large populations will steamroll states with small populations.)
Implementing these (again, within the confines of states) would actually be pretty easy. No more district maps. No more gerrymandering. All federal representative seats at-large and senators chosen by legislators. The states could keep whatever system they wished for their own governments. Cool.
Not sure why #2 would give any more advantage to larger states than they already. CA already gets 40 times as many reps as Wyoming. If people were inclined to organize by state under a voucher system CA could still organize about 40 times as many.
I'm thinking many candidates would not necessarily market themselves as representing any state at all. It's true that a candidate trying to earn (for example) the vouchers of pro-gun citizens would get a lot from CA and NY. But to me that's a feature not a bug - those people are currently outvoted and thus underrepresented. No one gets outvoted in a voucher system.
I like it! Essentially as far as the House is concerned, 50 Wyomings. I could have Rep. Bob Smith, while my neighbor could be a big John Doe guy.
It would also put an end to certain "privileged" Districts that seem to get a lion's share of funds because their Rep has tenue and is a skilled horse trader. There is nothing more disgusting than crossing from one Congressional District to another and suddenly finding all the roads and bridges are not crumbling and falling over.
The mechanics seem problematic, in that the reassignment process would seem incompatible with ballot secrecy.
#2 sounds a bit like the congress that L. Neil Smith described in The Probability Broach, but his idea was that the representative simply held proxies whose number could change in real time.
In your proposal, if rep A has 2 million backers and rep B has 400K backers, then A's 2 million backers only get one vote in the congress, while the 400K get the same weight.
-jcr
“Plaintiff faces an unquantifiable potential harm by way of improper disclosure of sensitive information to the public,” U.S District Court Judge Aileen Cannon
"Unquantifiability" [sic] is apparently the code of the road these days
The left just doesn't want to give up any of the goal post movement that they have achieved in the last 50+ years.
Even if you get a Con-Con it takes 3/4 of the states to approve any amendments. There are at least 15 firmly held by Democrats and I don't think that is going to change in the near future. You might get some crazy amendments approved by the delegates, but their chances of ratification are slim to none. Only those based upon broad consensus will really ever end up being adopted.
I've been saying it every time this becomes a perennial subject here - A ConCon is likely to achieve little in the end. The only amendments that I think might have broad enough consensus to get into final passage might be some form of campaign finance, some form of "corporations are not people" (although the left is going pretty lame on this lately to defend tech sector censorship), maybe something that both enhances and limits the Second Amendment, and maybe some form of a balanced budget amendment. Also, if properly crafted and sold, maybe, just maybe, some kind of lengthier "commerce clause" can also make it into the adoption stages.
The practical effect will either be a possible delay of the next Civil War OR it will put it on an express train to happening. The left is probably really scared of the later since they will lose hard. The former though is OK because they will keep on moving the goal posts and flexing raw power to achieve their ends up until the grown ups in the room say "no more."
Not the first time I have posted the US was created as a response to 'taxation without representation'. Soon after Tocqueville noted that the biggest weakness would be when voters discovered they could vote themselves benefits that were not paid for.
As the current national debt shows this has become a problem that seems to only be getting worse. While a balanced budget amendment does have supporters I am not sure it is the answer since there would probably be exemptions for emergencies like in time of war; something I would bet quickly would expand to cover more "emergencies".
One thing I view as an almost impossible to solve issue is what I will call 'representation with out taxation' (something like 50% of the population does not pay federal income tax) and rights of individual citizens. Early on only landowners could vote but once the franchise was granted to all citizens it eventually reached the point where lots of voters had no responsibility to pay any taxes but obvious reasons to vote for freebies. Until someone (certainly not me) comes up with a solution to Tocqueville's analysis I don't see any happy ending.
" Until someone (certainly not me) comes up with a solution to Tocqueville's analysis I don't see any happy ending. "
Of course not. Disaffected clingers hate modern America, with all of this damned reason, science, inclusiveness, education, modernity, diversity, progress, and the like.
All of which is meaningless unless everyone has some skin in the game. No one should get a free ride at someone else's expense.
May I offer an appeal to commenters to exercise imaginations more realistically? The Philadelphia Constitutional Convention came at a historical moment characterized by broad consensus that success for the United States required a more powerful government, and a centralizing system of organization. That exerted pressure felt by most delegates to bypass or suppress conflicts, and seek unifying compromises and solutions.
The historical moment today is the opposite. It is all about division and centripetal tendencies. A convention attempt now would fall victim to that mood, and stand no chance. At best, it would fail amidst quiet futility and frustration. At worst, it would pretend a result reached in defiance of some major faction which had been steadfast in disagreement.
The cost of either outcome would include an enormous blow to the continuing legitimacy of the present Constitution, while delivering nothing to improve on it.
My amendments would be:
1) Forbid using the tax code to accomplish regulation or coerce behavior. Abolish all current federal taxes and implement the national sales tax as described by the FairTax proposal. One tax rate for everybody, citizen or not, on goods and services sold within the borders of the USA and its territories. Businesses shouldn't be wasting time on weighing the tax implications of their decisions. (Call this the "Fuck K Street" amendment.)
2) Forbid federal government ownership of uninhabited real estate. Auction off all of the federal lands currently under Department of the Interior jurisdiction, using the proceeds to pay down as much of the national debt as possible.
3) Forbid consecutive terms in congress, and limit any person to no more than two terms in their lifetime. We need to eliminate politics as a career choice for scumbag parasites like Pelosi.
4) Forbid the congress from exempting themselves from any law that applies to the rest of us, but double the penalties for any criminal conviction if the crime is committed while the defendant held elected office or was employed by the taxpayers.
5) Require that all elected officials are presumptively speaking under oath, subject to prosecution for perjury when communicating in their official capacity. (Call this the "Fuck you, Clapper!" amendment.)
6) Forbid all racial discrimination by any governmental agency, even if they call it something else.
7) Separation of school and state. No federal funding for, or interference in education at any level.
-jcr