The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Do University Diversity Statement Requirements Violate the Constitution?"
I very much enjoyed participating in this Federalist-Society-organized webinar, together with Prof. Brian Soucek (UC Davis). As is common for such Federalist Society programs, the panelists were chosen to present different views (though I think it's fair to say that Prof. Soucek and I agree on some things as well as disagree on others), and were not chosen exclusively from within the Federalist Society: Prof. Soucek is generally not at all a Federalist, to my knowledge.
I hope you find it as interesting as I did! Here's the blurb:
In recent years, universities have increasingly required 'diversity statements' from faculty seeking jobs, tenure, or promotion. But statements describing faculty's contributions to diversity, equity, and inclusion are also increasingly under attack. Criticisms first made in tweets and blog posts have expanded into prominent opinion pieces and, more recently, law review articles. These attacks are having an effect. Within universities, faculty-wide resolutions for and against mandatory diversity statements have been called and academic freedom committees have been asked to intervene. Outside universities, lawyers are recruiting plaintiffs to challenge diversity statement requirements in court.
Watch our experts in a discussion on Professor Brian Soucek's recent article in the UC Davis Law Review about these diversity statements fleshing out the criticisms and developing a framework to address if universities can require diversity statements without violating either the Constitution or academic freedom.
You can also read Prof. Soucek's full article. As to my views, I was delighted to see a commenter write,
I came into this conversation thinking "what's the big deal with DEI statements?" and generally on the same page as Prof Soucek. However, I think Prof Volokh's thought experiment absolutely devastated DEI statements.
So let me quickly summarize that thought experiment, which I gave in my part of the conversation (which begins at 16:45):
We get involved in another war. Much of the country, including some university system (whether Prof. Soucek's and my University of California or, say, the University of Nebraska) very much supports the war effort. So the University decides to offer faculty members and prospective faculty members an opportunity to mention their work related to the subject for purposes of evaluation, promotion, and hiring.
If, for instance, some professors joined the National Guard, which takes extra time, that could be used in deciding whether they were being productive enough scholars (just as other faculty might get extra time for tenure evaluation if they took semesters off because of illness or for parental leave). If they put on programs that helped returning soldiers, that would be counted as a form of "service" (faculty generally being evaluated on scholarship, teaching, and service, roughly in that order), even if normally service would otherwise focus on other subjects (such as service on university committees, or writing op-eds or blogs educating the public on the faculty's areas of expertise). If the History department decided that military history hadn't been taught enough, then indicating that one is teaching military history or is about to do so might count for extra teaching credit. I don't think this would violate the First Amendment or academic freedom principles. A university is entitled to set and recalibrate its priorities in these ways.
On the other hand, say the university said (following UC Davis) that "applicants seeking faculty positions … are required to submit a statement about their past, present, and future contributions to promoting [the war effort] in their professional careers," and did the same for existing faculty as well. This doesn't expressly forbid people from criticizing the war, or from just avoiding matters having to do with the war. Perhaps even behind closed doors the university might try to deal with this fairly, maybe even weighing scholarship or public commentary that comes to an anti-war conclusion equally with scholarship or public commentary that comes to a pro-war conclusion.
But wouldn't the message be quite clear—if you want a job here, or if you want to keep your job (especially if you're untenured), or if you want a promotion, you'd be wisest to express pro-war positions, or at least keep your anti-war positions to yourselves? And is that consistent with the First Amendment and academic freedom principles?
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For a public university, yes.
Did people mention that woke is the stale criticism of the US by Mao in the 1960's? Did people say that the mission of these schools is education not indoctrination? In education, all sides of a subject are presented. In indoctrination, one side of a subject is presented. That is tax fraud because the privileges of these schools is for education.
Did anyone mention that any tax exemption makes the schools quasi-governmental organizations and that the Amendments of the constitution apply to them? This state school shit is just denial. Could these schools exist without the privileges of government?
Compliments to Eugene. He has figured out how look like he is awake with eyes open, when the other speaker causes immediate loss of consciousness. Michael Jackson should have listened to this recording.
I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but maybe show your work next time?
That's rich coming from someone who doesn't.
Not agreeing with me so attacking me as lazy.
I thought you were above that kind of emptyness.
You didn't make a statement for or against. You simply asked him to "show his work".
But you almost never "show your own work".
It's pretty trollish.
He made a legal opinion and didn't back him up. I think it's fair to note that.
Have you seen my comments? I do not stint on the reasoning - or the text!
Have you seen my comments? I do not stint on the reasoning - or the text!
Why yes, yes we have seen your comments. They are increasingly void of content, reasoning, or evidence. That's why this is so incredibly laughable.
Feel free to call me out on that on specific comments. This is more just generalized hostility pretending it's specific, and is pretty lame.
It would be easier to just praise you for those comments where this is not the case.
That's a pretty cute insult, but still pretty unsubstantive. This is the Internet, and all in good fun, but I prefer to engage with substance.
but I prefer to engage with substance.
No, you don't. At least, exceedingly rarely these days. That's my whole point. You've become your own parody. "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Sorry you think that. Luckily I don't keep my self image in what (most) VC commenters think of me.
Almost tin foil hat level, right?
Physician, heal thyself.
You're the one who decided there was an intentional plot.
What are you even talking about? I quoted the results of a survey. There was no mention of any plot. A plot to do what?
If you can’t handle people calling you names in lieu of discussion you should try avoiding it yourself.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/08/26/academic-freedom-alliance-on-diversity-statements/?comments=true#comment-9672084
Tens, hell, hundreds of thousands are being made scared by this stuff. Intentionally.
This is you, declaring a plot. A plot wherein diversity statements have the intent of intimidating hundreds of thousands.
Without proof of said intent.
So don't come at me like I'm accusing you of stuff you didn't do.
72% of College Students Believe Professors Influence Political Views
"Based on a survey of 1,000 current college students, we found that:
54% of students say some or many of their professors express their political views in class
45% say they believe their professors have political agendas when teaching, and 72% say their professors influence other students’ political leanings
59% of students fear expressing their political beliefs in class, while 31% say they have been ridiculed for stating a different political opinion"
That sucks. But also does not support the thesis that this is an intentional plot. Group opinion policing is a thing that exists. Academia needs to deal with it, but it is not some intentional plan being implemented by diversity statements.
I know you need no such evidence to posit a plot. But bevis is made of less paranoid stuff...or used to be.
Yes, there are concerted efforts to that end ("plots"). https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/18/professor-says-his-course-proposal-conservative-thought-was-rejected-because gives one example.
They call that nutpicking.
I fail to see how a state entity requiring you to engage in coerced speech to have a job is anything but a violation of the First Amendment.
You take this too broadly. There aren't many jobs out there that don't require "forced speech" to both get and keep a job.
Examples:
1. Interview questions or an interview presentation (which would be a reasonable thing to request from someone who's job requires daily presentations.)
2. Progress reporting on assigned projects
3. Entering student evaluation information and opinion into a student information system
etc.
There's lots of forced speech. The subject here appears to me to be presented as forced political speech or speech designed to align an employee with an organizations strategic goals or mission.
Or, more likely, to weed out people of different beliefs.
Comparing it to forced professional speech, like you did, is unreasonable.
Really? You think you'll get the job if you just sit silently through the interview?
"Coerced speech" doesn't mean "I'm being required to speak," it's means "I'm being forced to say something in particular." That's what all your examples are lacking.
"Say[ing] something in particular" is part of an interview. It can be especially important for roles that require guiding and mentoring other people, dealing with interpersonal conflicts, recognizing learning issues, etc. Assuming a particular point of view as part of a presentation is also "say[ing] something in particular." And if the school has a particular goal or mission, describing how you'd support that mission assumes agreement with it because, understandably, if you don't agree with the mission, why are you even applying? It's no coerced speech because you don't have to apply to the job in the first place.
UT-Austin takes geographic diversity into account…is that unconstitutional??
Almost certainly not especially if it is distrubution within the state of Texas
Providing aid and comfort (aka service) to victims of war can be done by anyone regardless of how they feel about the war. That person would get a nod from the university without ever saying a word about the war, pro or anti.
Not according to the hypothetical above which posits that "applicants seeking faculty positions … are required to submit a statement about their past, present, and future contributions to promoting [the war effort] in their professional careers".
Providing aid and comfort to victims is very different from, arguably diametrically opposed to, the active promotion and support of the effort that creates those victims. So, no, that person would not "get a nod from the university" in the hypothetical above.
The left looked at anti-commie loyalty oaths and decided that they looked like fun and should be revamped for the new age.
Retroactively approving the Levering Act!
What is your position about anti-commie loyalty oaths?
Also do you know what these statements are - they are annoying, but not really loyalty oaths. Hence why the OP's hypo isn't about a loyalty oath.
"not really loyalty oaths.
Yes they are, they don't use the oath form but the substance is the same. They are statements to show loyalty to an ideological position, to weed out heretics.
That's partisan telepathy, not established. Saying 'I've had unique experiences I'll bring to the table' is not really taking an ideological position. Conservatives can and do write fine examples of the genre.
Could be a sincere belief that diversity of background is helpful in a faculty. Or could just as well be performative 'we gotta do something this is something'.
I really don't care if they get eliminated - I don't think they have much purpose in the end. But no, there is no evidence other than your paranoia that it is an invidious liberal plot to weed out conservatives.
Nothing "liberal" about it. They are designed to impose conformity and weed out heretics.
So I explain why you're wrong, and you just repeat yourself.
Beats thinking, I guess!
No....it's established.
https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/
"Berkeley's diversity rubric shows just how much specificity was expected. Three aspects of the applicants' diversity statements were graded on a five-point scale: knowledge of diversity, experience in advancing diversity, and a plan for advancing diversity in the future. The highest possible score was thus a 15. Discounting the importance of diversity, failing to specifically discuss gender and race, and making only vague statements (such as "the field of History definitely needs more women") were listed as the kinds of things that would earn the lowest possible score."
Berkeley rejected 76 percent of qualified applicants without even considering their teaching skills, their publication history, their potential for academic excellence or their ability to contribute to their field. As far as the university knew, these applicants could well have been the next Albert Einstein or Jonas Salk, or they might have been outstanding and innovative educators who would make a significant difference in students' lives.
So this depends on what you think diversity is. Hint: It's not just being a minority!
I also gave two alternate reasons to ask for this other than to weed out conservatives. It's weeding out plenty of people, but no evidence who they are.
re-describing the thing that I say can have multiple motives doesn't really bely the multiple motives unless you do more work.
Which you, typically, did not.
I don't think it's good policy, but as usual y'all take a dumb thing and turn it into an Evil Liberal Plot.
Because that's the right-wing these days. No new ideas, just paranoia.
It does not depend on "what you think diversity is"
Failing to specifically discuss gender and race (as noted above), in your diversity statement, led to low scores in the initial evaluation, and being summarily dismissed.
I can't speak to Berkely in specific, but that is definitely not true of diversity statements generally.
One obvious way you can tell that's bullshit is to look at the demographic of who is being hired as professors in schools that require diversity statements. Plenty of white males!
" that is definitely not true of diversity statements generally."
Show your work.
Diversity statements about political conformity. Not diversity.
A gay African American professor who writes "I believe everyone should be treated equally" and who doesn't have time for "diversity-promoting" workshops and leadership (but instead focuses on her research) wouldn't be graded well.
Your Berkeley link doesn’t prove your thesis. I don’t need a source to point that out.
No, you made a statement.
"that is definitely not true of diversity statements generally"
Previously you said "Have you seen my comments? I do not stint on the reasoning - or the text!"
Here, you do just that. You just...deny what was said. Without any proof. Or logic. And it's classic for you. No proof SarcastrO.
Also, so? The university doesn't want to hire people who are bad at supporting gender and racial diversity, since they consider it to be a key requirement for the job. That seems totally normal to me, just like any other job requirement.
Are you getting caught up on its label as a "diversity statement?" It doesn't mean "opine about the virtues of diversity." It just means, what experience do you have contributing to diversity initiatives and what talents do you bring to the table in that regard, which includes knowledge. How is that any different from asking prospective hires for a "teaching statement" about their teaching experience, knowledge of techniques, and lesson plans?
I don't think you have the right idea of what these are. Your formulation would weed out all entry level applicants.
It has not been what I've heard from my (mostly white) friends as they go into the academic workforce and have to deal with these
And it's not in keeping with the Berkely requirements below even, which does not include experience contributing to diversity initiatives at all.
So this depends on what you think diversity is.
Apparently you're the one having trouble understanding what "diversity" is being defined as. Hint, it's right there in AL's comment.
So dismissive of "right-wing" yet you seem to be unable to cut through your own partisan fog.
"failing to specifically discuss gender and race" does not mean failing to be in a cohort of gender or race.
We're talking about diversity statements here. Try to keep up.
I'm not sure you know what those are, then.
Another example of conservatives pushing a 'heads we win, tails you lose' approach (and some still figuring they should be or are entitled to such benefit).
Religious schools engage in discrimination (with respect to everyone from professors and administrators to basketball coaches and landscapers), collect loyalty oaths, impose statements of faith, flout academic freedom, and enforce silly dogma at the expense of science and history. (They also teach nonsense and expect accreditation despite teaching nonsense.) When a strong, mainstream, liberal-libertarian school wishes to use a diversity statement, however, or oppose bigotry on campus, conservatives get the vapors.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, that is.
Help me here, Arthur:
How exactly is a university requirement to make a "diversity statement" (or any other statement for that matter) either liberal or libertarian?
"[M]odern academia has become a fundamentally ideological and coercive exercise masquerading as a scholarly and collegial one..." (source)
Hence the distinction between a public and private institution, you dolt. A private university is free to institute a whatever requirements they want, even if I think they are asinine.
Did the Federalist Society or Prof. Volokh distinguish private schools from public schools in this context, or criticize conservative-controlled schools that collect loyalty oaths, impose statements of faith, and flout academic freedom?
(I intend to watch at least part of the presentation later.)
you're gonna "watch", shouldn't you check with your cell-mate first?
at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
and who's Penn State playing this week? Nobody could recruit those hot lineman like the "Reverend" Sandusky
I haven't watched either, but given that they're discussing whether such things violate the Constitution, I think it's safe to assume that they're talking about universities actually subject to the First Amendment - that is, government universities.
I don't see how criticizing private universities would be relevant to the Constitution. Feel free to make your own presentation and tout it on your own blog, though.
This blog, and IJ, have gotten involved in arm wrenching private universities to adhere to their own boilerplate about academic freedom and speech.
This is in direct response to the Rev's sarcasms. He should be proud!
You're probably right that the First Amendment concerns are not applicable to private universities. But it concerns me when the notions of Constitutional free speech and "academic freedom" get lumped together. Academic freedom very much applies to private institutions.
In any event, let's be real about what a university is. It's enforced/prohibited speech. Professors are expected to teach within academically acceptable curbs, e.g. based on documented truth or rigorous scientific method. How is requiring certain academic standards different from establishing other norms for the faculty, such as inclusiveness? One might be tempted to draw the boundary at academic relevance, but that's a slippery concept on its own. Why is requiring a pro-diversity norm worse than a pro-rigor or pro-fact norm?
"I haven't watched either, but given that they're discussing whether such things violate the Constitution, I think it's safe to assume that they're talking about universities actually subject to the First Amendment - that is, government universities."
I watched it. If that distinction was mentioned, I missed it.
From my skim of the Soucek article, he settles on the relevance of diversity statements to an academic position as their saving grace, and then wants to throw it back on diversity opponents to prove that it's not relevant.
Sorry, man, that's not how it works. You're burdening free expression, so the strict scrutiny is on you to prove that it's a compelling interest and narrowly tailored.
You know that Charlie Brown teacher's voice, wah wah wah wah-wah wah. That's what I hear when QA talks into the gray box.
Every year I have to take courses on workplace sexual harassment, data security, and read any adjustments to my employer's strategic plan. Then, a few times a year, I have to write statements showing how the work I completed supported that plan and the work I'm doing in the future will align.
If my employer says our goal is to reach out to new markets and increase our visibility into any given community, including race or sexual orientation, then that's the strategic goal I'll be planning to and supporting.
Can a public university declare itself a Hispanic-serving institution as part of a strategic move to increase its visibility within that community and attract more students? And if this is its strategic goal, can it also require that its employees support the goal in their daily work and take any training required to meet the customer where they are? Could they not hire more bilingual staff or seek out people specifically versed in Latino community culture and needs? Or native American? Or Pacific Islander? Or any of a number of communities with a specific American sub-culture that might respond with increased enrollment if the university learned to relate to them more productively?
That is so interesting to hear about your job. Irrelevant, but interesting.
More skimming?
Your "skim" was pretty poor. Soucek goes into great detail about why a well-designed diversity statement mandate doesn't burden speech at all.
Lots of people go into great detail about why the Earth must be flat. That doesn't mean it's worth arguing with those claims.
Maybe a little OT but I have seen several MSM blurbs about how Biden's great economy has resulted in a drop in enrollment at the university level and fewer courses in what are sometimes called 'angry studies' courses. It seems a lot of deversity devotees wound up with big debts from taking courses that failed to train them for jobs providing enough income to pay off their debts.
On the other hand STEM classes, and even more so a STEM degree, almost assures job offers at above average pay checks. Maybe the silver lining in the Biden Administration is the creation of economic conditions that send woke peeps to the poor house.
Biden's great economy has resulted in a drop in enrollment at the university level and fewer courses in what are sometimes called 'angry studies' courses.
Wow, that's some quick causation! Or maybe bullshit.
STEMLords are dystopian. People should study what they want to study, not what is beep boop economically optimal.
Talk about your bullshit,
I'd have liked to study 1960's Major League Lefties, maybe even get a doctorate in the "Left Handed Experience in Amurica" (that first slave in 1619? Left Handed) with a minor in Electric Guitar, but had to make a living.
Sarcastr0 go bite a big red donkey dick.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/06/10/updated-numbers-show-largest-college-enrollment-decline-in-a-decade/?sh=77bc500d1a70
It's your causality I challenged, not your numbers.
Did all your STEM education skip reading comprehension?
Uhh, yeah pretty much, when it's some dipshit English class or Differential Equations VI, the math always wins
The engineering students I knew back in the 70's tended to view the dipshit English classes as a relaxing break from real school work, and a quick GPA boost. When you find yourself solving truss problems in your sleep, you need something you can pass while just vegging out.
Having classes you think are worthwhile and those you do not is fine. I majored in physics and minored in Russian lit.
But insisting everyone else have your preferences, for the good of their pocketbook and society? That is giving engineers a bad name.
My opinion is that majors that do not lead to jobs which pay well enough to justify the cost of the education are luxury goods.
I don't think luxury goods should be banned, but neither do I think they should be subsidized, and loans issued to pay for them should have to meet the most rigorous level of income vetting.
Basically any education not leading to a well paying career should be treated like buying a vacation or fancy meals: A luxury good that isn't subject to being repossessed, and any loans for it priced on that basis.
That utilitarian logic leads to no space program, no arts programs (federal or local) and in general government not being involved in any of the things that make civilization something more than the strictly mechanistically optimal.
It's actually pretty collectivist - you can do things that do not serve The Society, but it will cost you!
Fuck arts programs in the ass with no lube. Back in the day artists (Lenardo as an example) got their money from patrons based on what artists call the validity of their work. Today the government gives grants to "artists" who would be wearing paper hats and asking 'do you want to supersize that?' with government money.
As for the space program I suggest you get up to speed on how the military is involved in it. Like it or not the military assures there will be a space program.
Yes, this is why STEMLords are the worst.
Your hot take on modern art being bad is noted. Never seen that take before.
Your contempt for anything you don't understand is also noted.
LOL.
So no education majors, then. Since teacher salaries across the country are some of the lowest for degreed professionals.
Did all your STEM education skip reading comprehension?
Says the same person that wrote this in his next comment:
insisting everyone else have your preferences
Where did ragebot or Brett insist that everyone else have their preferences? Show your work.
He's crowing people are being funneled into STEM. You should be able to pick up tone and mood, and his is STEM uber allies.
So, he is praising STEM? Oh noes.
Are you mind-reading, as you always accuse Brett of? A little self-reflection once in a while would be nice.
Again I say, show your work. Sarcastcr0?
He's not just praising STEM, he has contempt for everything that isn't STEM.
Check out his take on public funding of art above. He's got a colorless utilitarian view of life, and wants to project that onto everyone else.
Where did ragebot or Brett insist that everyone else have their preferences? Show your work.
Once again Sarcastr0 shows lack of reading comprehension and instead throws up a straw man.
The issue is not funneling peeps into STEM; rather it is forcing tax payers to pay for non STEM students while STEM students in general are self supporting.
Government funding only things with an ROI is ignoring what makes civilization worth doing.
Space telescopes; particle colliders; new art, but also free performances for people to see. You would end them all in service of the productivity.
Once again - collectivist - keep in mind society and it's instrument the government serves the people, not vice versa.
Sure, people should study what they want to study. But if we're going to create huge taxpayer-subsidized entities to facilitate this studying, it *is* worth questioning whether what we're doing has a benefit to the taxpayer.
Do you think the NEA benefits the taxpayer? Does the James Webb Space telescope have a good ROI?
Once you go down that utilitarian path, things get pretty collectivist and dystopian pretty fast.
But insisting everyone else have your preferences, for the good of their pocketbook and society? That is giving engineers a bad name.
Do you even read what you write?
Is benefit to society only monetary? I would have thought that you would be someone that would argue the great non-monetary benefits to society of something like JWST. I can't speak for Dave above, but I think there's a vast ocean of difference between JWST and subsidizing sub-par educations in Grievance Studies which lead to massive individual debt, no societal benefit and no person benefit beyond virtue signalling (yeah, I think all of the grievance studies programs are complete horse manure, in all ways, shapes and forms. They give "higher education" a bad name.)
You may be super sure there's no societal benefit, but those in those programs would think differently. You're pushing your own viewpoint even as you decry others doing the same.
Anyhow, what do you think the volume of these 'Grievance Studies' programs is? There are a lot of programs that are neither STEM nor these programs you (have been told to) dislike.
The volume? If it's not basically 0 (outside of just being a niche of sociology), then it's too much.
And, thanks also for your attempted dehumanization of me. I happen to dislike that crap of my own accord (even if I may have co-opted the term). You're getting to the point of just muting and still knowing exactly what you have to say. It's sad.
I'm not dehumanizing you, I'm pointing out that insisting everyone agree with your opinion of what is valuable is actually pretty authoritarian.
There are a lot of programs that are neither STEM nor these programs you (have been told to) dislike.
No, you suggested that I am incapable of making my own decision about what to think, or why I think what I do. That's attempting to dehumanize me. At least I read what I'm responding to.
You can study whatever you want - on your own dime. When you start demanding that I pay for your studies (whether directly or through mandatory tax collections), I start to get a say in that choice.
What about the 1860s land donations that the universities sit on? How far are you going to police Useful Studies versus Useless Studies?
Generally speaking, society can spend tax money any way it likes. Society can choose to subsidize the symphony or ballet, or professional 'wrestling' and tractor pulls, or not.
We can decide we want more nurses and subsidize nursing schools, or that we want more Egyptologists, and fund accordingly.
These are classic majority rules decisions, no different from who gets a road and who doesn't.
My sense is that there is fairly broad support for subsidizing training for practical careers, for several reasons:
-'if my son gets trained to be an occupational therapist, he won't have to live at home any more'
-'if my neighbor's daughter becomes an RN, that's good, because I might need an RN someday'
-'if we train electrical engineers, it's good for the country because we will be able to compete in the worldwide market'
That support drops for fields of study with less obvious societal benefits. For one example, I'm not going to support taxation to increase training for aromatherapists; I think the current supply is adequate.
Of course, you may have a different list of what is worth subsidizing. People elect politicians who build football stadiums, after all.
What we do or don't decide to fund is an entirely legitimate subject to debate. The fact that we have subsidized Russian Lit (or Civil Engineering!) in the past doesn't mean we have to continue making the same choices going forward.
(My own view of the ethics is that we should only compel taxation to support things with an obvious broad benefit; as much as I like the ballet, I wouldn't support it with tax money any more than I would support rock-n-roll concerts. But that's me; I just am squeamish about making my neighbors to pay for things I want that they don't)
A lot of these value judgements on fringe areas of study appear to be economic in nature; they're too expensive for their societal return on value. Except they exist because students attend them and they're funded because voters fund them. It seems like the "market" sees some value in them.
I don't have kids. Even more people haven't had them yet or are now grandparents without dependents. Help me understand why you make us, your neighbors, pay for other people's education again? Maybe because society benefits generally from a minimum level of education and specifically from the creation of trained labor ready for work. As jobs numbers regularly show, all of those English majors and art majors and anthropology majors are getting jobs. Not all of them directly in their field, but most of them using their individual skills to the benefit of their employers. English majors and anthropology majors and music majors all have skills that translate well into multiple employment situations for good pay.
I've worked with software developers with degrees from multiple countries. I find the best ones all have some background in the arts; it provides them a perspective one doesn't get in a pure STEMM system that doesn't force students to take "general ed" non-major courses. Non-linear thinking has value.
I mean, that's what we're discussing - how to make these decisions and what the decisions should be.
I think culture is the business of society, and government is it's instrument. Government funding cultural institutions, whether scientific artistic or educational (e.g. museums) is a core function of government. And in my opinion if we forget that, we economically incentivize a dystopian colorless society based on grey utility.
Hey, somebodies gotta make those Latte's at Starbucks
Help me out here. If a public university diversity statement is unconstitutional, does that mean that an announced public university diversity policy, however anodyne and lacking in effect, or even intended effect, is also unconstitutional?
Yes.
SL,
Compelled speech that is not viewpoint neutral may well be a 1A violation while a university diversity policy that is not actually a quota system may be perfectly legal.
Nico, would a public university commit a legal offense if it barred by policy the hiring of anyone who refused to write in a statement that they oppose lynching of blacks?
That would be viewpoint-related speech on a publicly controversial topic, right? And actually prohibiting hiring such a person would be a more burdensome imposition than merely requiring as a condition of employment or promotion a statement to say what they believed.
Why aren't public universities free to put some kinds of advocacy outside the bounds of acceptable faculty conduct? Is it really an answer to that question to suggest that absolutely nothing a would-be academic could say should rule them out as a faculty hire?
Note that the example in question does not even go as far as my questions posit. It just says, "Let's see what you have to say about this topic."
I have no informed opinion on that topic except to say that I have no objection to a statement, "I support obeying the laws of the state of place of operations of the university."
What are you trying to prove?
Anyone with half a brain knows that the so-called diversity statements are attempts to restrict the political belief of those being considered.
If you refuse to admit that then I know what part of your anatomy is lacking.
There's not even a reason for that to be true. Unlike the right, the left doesn't spend its time trying to screw over conservatives for sport. There is no "own-the-cons" movement.
Why is it so hard to believe that the left honestly values diversity? It's very strange. The right always assumes it's a smokescreen for some nefarious scheme, like in the Harvard diversity case. I don't get it. We just actually like diversity, ok?
I mean like, don't have a coup, man!
Randal has a comment, as he would.
In this context, "viewpoint neutral" takes us to some pretty odd places. For example, many evangelical Christians consider their theological viewpoint opposed to, and exclusive of, the deterministic philosophy of scientists. If you take away all ability by the university to assert a viewpoint, the institution loses its ability to deliver the educational product it promises.
Heard this watching the US Open coverage,
Did you know the Men players have heavier balls, dammit, I mean the Tennis Balls the men use are heavier than the women's balls, dammit, the balls the women play with, I mean....
But they use the "heavy" balls when they play "mixed doubles"
One of the female commentators, former player, even said "The women are used to playing with the Men's Heavy Balls!!"
Frank "Hey Now!!"
There's a difference in the felt layer, but not the size or weight.
Have fun adding the word "felt" to your skit. You're welcome.
I agree with EV. I am not sure why the left has gotten it into their head that people aren’t supposed to be able to make up their own mind and think for themselves on so many issues. They are increasingly pushing dogma and it is very divisive. The left didn’t used to be this way.
People need to be able to make up their own mind about important issues, including diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) related issues. (There always is a new trendy acronymn, isn’t there? Until people get bored. There is definitely an element of marketing at play here.)
I believe that pushing this stuff creates a lot of suspicion of higher education and turns a non-insignificant number of people away from it. That isn’t good, because everybody can greatly benefit from education. But the key to a true education is independent thought, not saying what you think authority figures want to hear in DEI statements.
These statements are interpreted as coded messages that only people with certain views need apply. And the result of that is just more intellectual conformity, which will just make us less intelligent as a society.
1. This isn't about making up someone's mind for them. This is about attracting and retaining students (customers, if you will) that the university desires to attract and retain.
2. The statements aren't meant to educate. They're designed to attract employees that meet the university's goals.
3. There are nearly 6,000 universities in the US right now (according to IPEDS.) If someone views the message of university wanting to create a welcoming space for people of all races, ethnicities, genders, and orientations as a coded message that they're not welcome, they're probably going to have trouble at most of those 5,999 US institutions--even the ones mostly made up of that much older acronym: WASP.
1. You are making my point. They are using these statements to attract done candidates and repel others. The result being greater intellectual conformity.
2. Same as above.
3. I don’t care how righteous (or self-righteous) you think the particular belief system is. I do not think we should be testing people for adherence to it. All belief systems have strengths and weaknesses. All belief systems deserve to be challenged. If the ideas are so good, they should be able to prevail by means of persuasion rather than as required orthodoxy.
You can work at a university without believing in diversity. You just need to do your job, which the university that hired you gets to define. That means they're paying you to spend some time supporting diversity. Maybe you think it's a waste of time. So? Everybody's job has elements that are a waste of time. That doesn't mean it's a violation of your "beliefs" to do the job.
Just do the job you were hired to do and stop fucking whining! So much whining oh my god.
We are talking about diversity statements here.
Hm so, do you not know what a diversity statement is? I agree the term is unfortunate, so I don't blame you.
Think of it as a section on your résumé, like Experience or Skills, called Diversity, where you can recount your previous contributions to supporting diversity and enumerate your related talents.
It's not asking you to give a personal opinion about the value of diversity, just like it would raise eyebrows if your Experience section just said "I feel strongly that occupational experience is a valuable asset" in lieu of any actual experience.
Implies you must support rather than be indifferent to diversity. Implies you aren’t supposed to make up your own mind.
It isn’t appropriate for a public university.
I don't think it implies that at all. You're allowed to hate diversity, or be indifferent to diversity.
Right. A person hates diversity. But has all sorts of diversity-promoting activities to discuss in their diversity statement.
Allowed only in the sense that if you hide your opinion, no one can punish you for it.
I hate Excel, but it is a skill on my resume.
Sarcastro:
Excel isn't an ideology. And why would you hate it? That is just sick!
Being able to further diversity isn’t an ideology.
Being able to further diversify does not require ideological “diversity statements.”
I am not debating diversity, I am debating diversity statements.
Unlike diversity, diversity statements are ideological.
Welker, What you fail to explain is why any particular ideology—the one you prefer, for instance—deserves mandatory protection by some purposeful institution which has decided its purposes would be better served without you. What makes you suppose that among all the ideologies in the world, yours must be fostered by an institution which is demonstrably both incapable and disinclined to foster all of them. If it is an institution which cherishes a history of considering ideologies, embracing some and rejecting others, what makes yours entitled to be embraced continuously? Must the institution never be free to say, of anything, "We recognize that ideology, we considered it, we rejected it, and prefer it not trouble us further."
Stephen,
J covered this ready. Truth is itself not ideological. Universities should serve all people of all ideologies through the pursuit of truth. Simple.
No, your 7:27 pm OP is about supporting diversity. How it's an ideological choice people should be able to make on their own.
I don't like diversity statements either. But your thesis goes vastly farther than that. To some kind of epistemological hell you seem to think is no problem to navigate.
That is nothing even vaguely like the compulsory diversity statements described in the article above.
By applying for a public university job, aren't you expected to support the concept of "public education?"
By applying for a stock broker position, aren't you expected to support the concept of the free market?
If you apply for a job at a daycare, wouldn't they be justified in asking you about your prior work with young children and the various methods you've used to make them feel comfortable and safe, keep them happy, encourage them to take naps?
If you ran such a school, would you hire someone who didn't like kids or hadn't spent any time thinking about the proper care of young children? Of course not.
No, no, yes, maybe. You don't have to like kids to be good at caring for and even teaching them. Many people are quite good at their jobs despite getting little satisfaction from it.
The difference in #3 is that the questions about prior work are actually relevant to the future work and are decent predictors of the quality of future work. Diversity statements are not relevant to nor predictive of the work of a university professor.
I think these statements are bad policy and don’t really care if they are found unconstitutional. Prof. Volokh makes a pretty good case in the OP.
But it’s kid of an awful view of conservativism that it includes rejecting diversity as having merit. In fact, I am quite sure that is not true.
Diversity for the sake of diversity (when diversity is especially defined as having different melanin levels) is lacking in merit.
When diversity means something more than "think like me, but don't look like me" then we can talk.
Who says this is diversity for the sake of diversity?
Just remember the term "diversity" came into vogue when outright quotas were declared illegal.
It is telling that the required pledge is only about "diversity."
Why does that "value" trump "equity." Equity seems always to fade into the background grey of SJWs.
The E in DEI stands for Equity.
I'm surprised that you would prefer Equity to be the shorthand for DEI over Diversity. Equity can be cast, only slightly unfairly, as redistribution -- a value much more antithetical to conservatism than Diversity, which I admit I don't even really see the conservative first-principles objection to.
Out of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, Equity seems to me to be the most problematic from the perspective of how it's relevant to a university's educational mission.
Enhancing diversity can be a means to enable some forms of equity, at least where structural inequities have created whole segments of our society with poorer educations and reduced access to the tools necessary to get a college degree. I agree that, if not handled right, this can be problematic. I've seen examples based on regional preferences for admission that do a pretty good job.
Haven't seen any Equity statements, yet.
Huh, it's almost as if melanin levels, life experience, and the derived life lessons might be interrelated somehow.
Huh, it's almost as if melanin levels, life experience, and the derived life lessons might be interrelated somehow.
This is a topic that I think is actually interesting and worth debating. In my opinion, experience, and education, I would have to say that I agree with you that there is some correlation, but most of those types of diversity in life experience could be accounted for by regional or socioeconomic background. As much, if not more, than melanin levels.
Unless you think that diversity in life experience only comes from experiencing some form of racism or something? I can definitely say that I have never experienced the effects of "racism" (scare quotes because I am referring to how it is currently defined to mean nearly everything) for my skin color. What particular value do you think there is in this specific type of life experience to specifically target it via racial diversity? What is gained that couldn't otherwise be? Are insights into things like dehumanization or hate speech especially significant coming from a US minority, versus someone who experienced similar treatment in another country but happens to be white?
What, specifically, is the value of diversity, based on skin color, that can't be achieved otherwise?
Unfortunately, I'm not the best equipped person to debate it. My perception is that in the US, skin color (and other indicia of minority statuses) are pretty good proxies for variations in viewpoint and experience, relative to the "baseline" white, male, heteronormative, etc etc viewpoint. That is not to say that *all of *any group think monolithically or that *none of any other group can have meaningfully similar experiences or viewpoints. Some would say both of those are true, but that is outside my expertise.
I would also say the perception of inclusion is also valuable for groups whose members feel, for historical reasons, that they are not included in the field of study or activity or conversation. I believe there are some good examples of that effect in the sociology/education literature. I believe one of the societal purposes of higher education is to draw out the strengths of the populace. If the public appearance of inclusion assists that mission by helping to elevate meritorious individuals who might otherwise self-exclude or fail to rise, that is also a valid goal.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I tend to agree that "Inclusion" is an important value for a university, especially a public university. The "self-exclusion" of people who don't see themselves represented in a space is something that I think is a legitimate concern. I remain unconvinced, however, that diversity statements/pledges are the way to do it.
Let's see some Inclusion statements. "It is our goal to include, as allowed by infrastructure/faculty/resources, as many people of all types and backgrounds into a welcoming environment of education blah blah". (Ok, I never said anybody would be hiring me to write such statements... )
You have to keep in mind that a person may be neutral or undecided about the impacts of diversity. I think all things have positives and negatives. I once volunteered to teach at a high school in South Central LA that had recently had a race riot between Hispanic kids and black kids before I arrived.
A critical thinker ought to be able to make up their own mind about diversity. Especially since diversity manifests in so many different ways and in so many different contexts. It is not something that never imposes costs in any context. There are both costs and benefits that are different in different contexts. A race riot at a school, for example, certainly has costs. That doesn’t mean eliminating diversity at the school is the answer, but people should be able to discuss and think for themselves about this sort of thing without being required to take a particular position. Indeed, one might choose to simply remain undecided.
Regardless, even if the case for diversity were rock solid and unquestionably in all times and all places (like some people feel about the Holy Bible), I don’t think adherence to it should be measured by universities. Even if the idea is greatest thing, people can become stronger intellectually by encountering challenges to the ideas associated with it. I don’t think it is the place of universities to decide that “right answers” to certain ideological questions have been found and then manipulate their hiring and promotion processes based on adherence to these right answers.
With respect to conservatives, I do not speak for them. But since they have a tendency to advocate color blindness, that would seem to imply a neutrality towards diversity rather than an embrace or rejection of it. Liberals seem to not be neutral, but to positively celebrate it. Hence your statement that diversity has merit.
I think all views should be discussed and debated in a university setting. As you probably do as well.
Well said.
" But since they have a tendency to advocate color blindness, "
That is what conservatives claim (it is one of the euphemisms they like to hide behind, like "traditional values" or "conservative values" for bigotry and backwardness); only partisan dumbasses fall for it.
Conservatives want to have people perceive a world in which fairy tales are true but race-targeting voter suppression, religion-based gay-bashing, and other forms of "traditional values," Republican bigotry are fantasy. This is why conservatives have become uncompetitive at the modern American marketplace of ideas.
Rev:
Not all people who call themselves conservatives are the same. I am sure you already know that.
You are painting with a very broad brush and emphasizing the negative.
You have to keep in mind that a person may be neutral or undecided about the impacts of diversity.
I disagree. That's actually unamerican. Not like censorship, but you're bad at living in what this country is and has a history of being.
E Pluribus Unum has been our slogan for a long time.
A critical thinker ought to be able to make up their own mind about diversity.
You sound like those white supremecist edge lords talking about free speech. Do you critically examine the latest Holocaust denial screed? The latest Full Gay Space Communisim paeon from some leftist? You do not.
Don't pretend discourse means there cannot be a mainstream or social opprobrium for certain views or questions.
Even if the idea is greatest thing, people can become stronger intellectually by encountering challenges to the ideas associated with it.
Again, this proves way too much. Bothering to assail rock solid concepts is not always a good use of time.
Your marketplace of ideas is a chaotic bazaar. Ironically, your questioning of diversity paradigm would lead to an utter lack of unity.
Sarc:
I simply don’t care about what you or anyone else arbitrarily perceives as mainstream. I only care about what I believe to be most likely true based on my own experiences and own reasoning processes. If my opinion happens to match a mainstream one, I am completely indifferent to it.
Using one’s one experiences and the best possible reasoning processes available to a person should not ordinarily result in Holocaust denial. If another person sincerely arrived at that result (rather than saying that is what they thought to troll or in order to engage in antisemetic propaganda, I do not believe social opprobrium would be a useful response. Instead, the optimal approach is to compare their experiences to my experiences and their reasoning processes to my reasoning processes in order to understand why their conclusion differs. In this way, I would also gain insight into whether that person has serious doubts about the Holocaust or was being insincere.
You say failure to affirmatively embrace diversity is un-American. I think that is ridiculous. What is un-American is to try to force everyone to think exactly as you think. The word diversity is far from simple. It is complex and multifaceted. There are many kinds of diversity. In different kinds of contexts, different types of diversity have different costs and benefits. Saying that all should be of one borg mind on this complex topic is, on my opinion, unreasonable. And also unprincipled. People should base their beliefs on the foundation of the best reasoning they are capable of, not on social pressure.
Nonsense. If everything is on the table, nothing is.
You don’t actually question everything, that’s impossible. Thus, your choices of what to question may be examined for a sense of your priorities.
Social control is a thing. You are trying to police me as much as I am you.
I know you have been around for a while, but this argument of yours is not grounded. It’s hopelessly ivory tower, and cannot see how it refutes itself.
It is possible to question everything. It isn’t even that hard. Sure, we all need to make assumptions to function. I am a pragmatist who recognizes that. But aside from that, we can still question including assumptions. But I don’t try to force my assumptions on others or and I nearly always recognize their status as assumptions. And when you make assumptions you can think about how the world would be different with different assumptions.
Welker, in every comment on this thread you have advocated to force your assumptions on public educational institutions which wish to foster diversity as an integral part of their own purposive activity.
Stephen:
Incorrect. I have advocated ideological neutrality.
" I think all views should be discussed and debated in a university setting. "
Then you must consider most conservative-controlled campuses to be worthless, despicable, flaming shitstorms.
That, or you are a right-wing partisan hack.
I think that generalizing about conservative controlled campuses is tricky. It is possible that some allow more intellectual freedom and others allow less. And that the topics in which intellectual freedom is allowed differ.
In general, I am against restrictions on intellectual freedom where they arise. Whether I have the power to do anything about it (or think I should interfere even if I were to have that power) is a separate issue. Ultimately, when it comes to private institutions, they have the freedom to restrict freedom to some degree. I usually think this is a bad choice, but I also respect that people will come to their own conclusions.
Finally, you may consider me a partisan right wing hack if that pleases you. As a matter of both principle and personality, I don’t care what you think about me. I am only interested in your arguments.
Conservative-controlled schools tend to be fourth-tier (or unranked) institutions, often with sketchy accreditation. They mock academic freedom (with respect to instruction, research, and general conduct). They teach nonsense -- complete fucking nonsense. They suppress science to flatter superstition. They enforce conduct and speech codes, collect loyalty oaths, impose statements of faith. They discriminate in hiring (everyone from basketball coaches to professors, secretaries to van drivers, administrators to janitors), admissions, discipline, and anything else that comes to mind. They engage in strenuous censorship. They have lackluster students, nondescript faculties, shambling reputations, and downscale alumni. Did I mention they teach nonsense at the expense of reason and science? Or that they are inclined toward bigotry and stale, ugly thinking?
Which part of that seems "tricky" to you? Let's have your arguments.
Fourth tier based on the idea that there are four tiers. Neither rankings nor tiers are non-arbitrary, especially as one moves away from famous institutions at the top.
The best part of your argument is the word tend, as it at least acknowledges that you are generalizing.
Your argument is based (I charitable assume) individual incidents. But then you have decided that the individual instances are defining. Which may or may not be fair based on the prevalence of the problem.
If you wanted to seriously discuss this, it would have to start with specific examples in context. Also, we need some criteria for specifying when a particular school is controlled by conservatives.
"This isn't about making up someone's mind for them. This is about attracting and retaining students (customers, if you will) that the university desires to attract and retain."
I don't know of major research universities or the Un. of "Name of State" having any such problem.
"They're designed to attract employees" Absolutely not. They are meant to reject without further review any who dont tow a particular political line.
Your Point #3 is at best confused. I read it as, "i only want fellow-travelers at my school."
What's that, then, 100? 150 out of 6000? African Americans make up about 12.4% of our population. Can you say with confidence that any major state university has that many or more African American students? If the university wants to ensure their students are exposed to a wide variety of Americans and find themselves at less than 6% African American, are they doing that job or should they be reaching out in new ways? IPEDS says University of Texas, Austin has 4% African American. Texas is about 13% Black and Austin is about 8%. Want to pick another major state university?
If you apply for a job at a public university and cannot "tow" the "political line" than public education is a good thing and that the university's strategic mission is worth your time, why apply at all? University's famously underpay just about everyone on campus. The mission itself is often a driving factor in employment. You can believe that diversity goals aren't helpful and still provide a statement for how you have and will work to achieve those goals as they pertain to the work you're hired to do. Those goals aren't trivial to the university's community, even if you don't appreciate them personally.
Diversity as a corporate or business goal seems to confuse a lot of conservatives, which is why there's so much push-back against the concept. Most people can wrap their head around the idea that to get an engineering job, you have to prove you can engineer. Or to get a sales job, you have to prove you can convince people to buy stuff, even stupid stuff that no one needs. Business schools spend months teaching about missions and goals and motivation. Yet too many conservatives, at least here on Reason, cannot wrap their head around a mission that envisions a world that welcomes people of all types.
They're bigots. It is as simple as that.
Shawn your first paragraph is confused. What is what then?
You just launch into an argument for a strict quota system and even had the audacity to call it a strategic goal of the university. There in no justification for quotas that is consistent with equity. (You that pesky,EQUAL treatment under the law). NONE.
The second paragraph is question begging, nothing more. People apply to a university to further their life goal not the university's.public stance. Then you make a defamatory claim, "universities famously underpay just about everyone on campus. And of course you cite hard evidence about you self-delusion. Then you say that, you can just lie and move on with your selfish life. Nut good ol' shawn will be satisfied.
Finally you think that "diversity," what ever that means to you, is a mission of the university or corporation or whatever. No you got that one wrong. I have had my faculty and senior research colleagues sing the praises of diversity but be unwilling to vote for a rule governing them, "no sex with students." Shawn you may be 16 or you may be 75. Ein either case, grow up.
" I believe that pushing this stuff creates a lot of suspicion of higher education and turns a non-insignificant number of people away from it. "
Much like reason, science, accurate history, and the reality-based perspective.
Rev:
Reason is based on a logical process that initially considers all ideas and then seeks reasons to prefer some ideas over others. Trying to say “the right thing” on a DEI statement is about pleasing authority figures, not reason.
Right?
I don’t think required DEI processes can be defended on the basis of reason or science or accurate history or an acknowledgment of reality, can they?
Sorry, I said DEI processes but I meant required DEI statements.
" I am not sure why the left has gotten it into their head that people aren’t supposed to be able to make up their own mind and think for themselves on so many issues. "
People who think for themselves can't be relied upon to end up agreeing with the left.
Waaaaaaank
Well, that wasn't a very reasoned response, but I suppose it was the best you had.
Your whole comment was just an insult aimed leftward. Yeah, you're just wanking with stuff like that.
Shows how far pro-left you skew. All he said was that people who think for themselves can’t be relied upon to agree with the left (or anything else).
What tribal mindset would have you think this is a direct insult?
He was agreeing with 'left has gotten it into their head that people aren’t supposed to be able to make up their own mind.'
Maybe next time show your work, not your wank.
Why should individual professors get to override university policy on this subject?
If you get a job as a janitor and your quarterly review has a question like "describe the contributions you've made to cleanliness" and you object to it based on your personal aversion to cleanliness, sorry, you're fired. Not because you have a personal aversion to cleanliness, but because you're unwilling to do your job, which, though it doesn't require you to endorse cleanliness as a good thing, does require you to clean.
I do not believe that public universities should take a position on this issue if they feel that the only way they can advance this new mission is required diversity statements.
The core missions of a university are education and research, not promoting a particular ideology. To the extent promoting a particular ideology has become the new mission of the university (and to some extent at the cost of education and research when hiring and promotion decisions are made based on adherence to the ideology), I think this is deeply problematic.
Do we need separate universities for people with different ideological commitments?
A) We do have separate universities for people with different ideological commitments. There are shloads of religious and otherwise conservative universities for you to choose from, along with "historically black" ones, which I promise, are not interested in diversity.
B) Universities are all about promoting particular ideologies. The scientific method is an ideology, academic freedom is an ideology, the pursuit of truth is an ideology. The value of diversity is an ideology that fits right in with those. How can you have academic freedom and the pursuit of truth without a diversity of viewpoints?
C) The diversity statements are a red herring, as you've essentially pointed out. The universities have already decided to pursue this new ideology. Be upset about that if you want. It'll probably be frustrating to be a professor who hates diversity at such a university, just as it would be frustrating to be a professor who believes that the scientific method is wrong. The diversity statements themselves aren't a litmus test, just like believing in the scientific method isn't a litmus test (at least outside of the sciences) so there's no free speech issue here. But yes, you're not going to like working in academia if you don't believe in academics. Is that really a surprise?
a) Those universities are private, for the most part. When we talk about a public university, we are talking about a university for everyone.
b) The truth itself is not ideological. The meaning and significance of the truth is ideological. Thus, it is possible to have universities that serve everyone, regardless of ideology, by advancing knowledge of the truth.
c) Here your just you saying you don’t care what I think, right? You are saying that public universities should exclude people based on their viewpoints is some de facto sense, as long as it is theoretically possible to be deceptive enough to get in as long as you hide your true thoughts? The issue I have with that is that this is just really the privatization of something that is supposed to be public. You are in effect saying that the public university is the private domain of people who think like you do.
A) Universities for everyone! Sounds like you do believe in diversity after all. Yes, public vs. private is an important consideration, but the existence of private universities is (in part) because public universities aren't for everyone. If you want a religious education or a non-diverse education, then you might want to consider a private institution.
B) There are quite a lot of people who don't believe in truth. But it doesn't matter, that's not the only ideology that universities adhere to. Like I said, academic freedom is a big one, which you almost could call secularism.
C) I'm not at all saying that I don't care what you think. But I am saying that you thinking something isn't sufficient to determine university policymaking. Do a study showing the detrimental effects of diversity in educational settings, or whatever you want to do to try to effect change. I'm all ears.
a) I didn’t say whether I believed in diversity. In fact, this is a complex topic, in my opinion and it is far too simplistic to talk about believing in it or not. HOWEVER, I strongly object by attempts by anyone to try to tell me what I should think about anything whatsoever. That is my choice and my choice alone.
Public universities should be open to anyone who wishes to 1) increase their knowledge, 2) increase their ability to think independently, or 3) increase their ability to perform research regardless of their particular beliefs or ideology.
I should point out that there is an irreconcilable conflict between 2 and required diversity statements.
That you wish to exclude people from public universities based on their beliefs and or “performance” on required diversity statements shows that you wish to partially privatize them in effect. As if they are the property of the current administration and faculty rather than the public as a whole.
c.) OK, good.
I don't want to exclude people based on their beliefs. I want to exclude them based on their (lack of) ability to and willingness to perform the job functions assigned to them, which includes taking actions to foster diversity as part of the educational mission of the university.
Fostering diversity or any other ideology is not an appropriate goal for a public university to the extent it requires an ideological litmus test.
If diversity can be fostered without a litmus test, it is OK for that to be a secondary goal. But it is not acceptable for this goal to take priority over the primary goals of teaching knowledge and thought processes to independent thinkers.
You want to create a university borg mind in service of a secondary goal, and that is completely unacceptable.
I think we've gone in a loop now. There's no litmus test. Where are you seeing a litmus test?
Fostering diversity doesn't mean fostering people's belief in diversity as a virtue. It means, you know, not only calling on the white males in your class.
The required DEI statement is perceived by me and many other reasonable people as being an ideological litmus test.
I think it is one.
I don't believe anyone is trying to force anyone to think anything here. Either you qualify for the job and can prove you've met those requirements by proving examples, or you cannot. Doesn't matter what you believe as much as what you've done and are willing to do. Though you're unlikely to apply for any employer with a mission that conflicts with your own belief system, which is entirely your choice.
If the staff and faculty are working towards a more welcoming and diverse campus, how does that conflict with a student/customer's ability to think independently? How does a faculty member's required diversity-supporting activities negatively impact any given student? I don't think you've explained the causal relationship. How, exactly, does acknowledging an employee's responsibilities take away independent thought? Especially if it's only done once per year? Imagine having to say a pledge at the start of every day--that must really eliminate independent thinking.
Recharacterizing an ideological commitment as a job qualification is extremely superficial thinking.
Saying that one has to demonstrate commitment to the ideology of diversity through action and not just words actually makes the ideological litmus test even worse.
" People who think for themselves can't be relied upon to end up agreeing with the left. "
That might be a sensible comment in a society in which just about every school conservatives get their hands on becomes a censorship-shackled, dogma-enforcing, nonsense-teaching, speech and conduct code-imposing, low-quality, viewpoint-discriminatory (everything from hiring to firing, admissions to discipline), science-suppressing, academic freedom-flouting hayseed farm.
Why are our strongest teaching and research institutions operated for, by, and in the liberal-libertarian mainstream, while conservative schools tend strongly toward fourth-tier (or unranked) shitshows?
There are obvious reasons. Conservatives prefer to ignore them.
For obvious reasons.
Carry on, clingers.
Rev:
There are more than two groups in society. It does not just consist of liberals and conservatives. Our winner take all political processes incentivizes the existence of just two major parties. But underneath that, thinking is more complicated.
You are painting with a broader brush than is optimal, in my opinion.
Do you consider it "broad brush" to observe that conservative-controlled campuses tend to
flout academic freedom,
engage in discriminatory hiring and admissions,
teach nonsense,
operate as low-quality, low-reputation yahoo factories,
enforce dogma and impose old-timey speech and conduct codes,
suppress science to flatter superstition,
engage in strenuous and knowledge-wrecking censorship,
and
collect loyalty oaths and require statements of faith?
I believe that all of the judgments you are demanding that I make are beyond my present knowledge. I do not doubt that there are individual cases that match your concerns, but as I said, you are being sloppy in your thinking and overgeneralizing.
I have concluded you are lying in an attempt to avoid the point that conservatives operate shit-rate schools and have no business offering pointers to their betters on education.
That, or you are too ignorant to contribute to reasoned debate among competent adults in this context.
In either case, you are a shambling partisan hack and a culture war casualty.
Rev:
I am not sure what you think you are gaining with your insults. But it doesn’t matter. I don’t value your opinion insofar as it consists of ad hominem attacks. I will not reciprocate either.
EV, you disappoint me. You've once again concocted a sickening defense of grievance culture on the hard right.
First, as Drewski pointed out above, your analogy of "supporting a war" for "supporting diversity in education" is grotesque. Was does support for a war have to do with the university's educational mission? Why would a university make supporting a war part of its job description for professors? It makes no sense.
Worse, your analysis comes down to "let's always assume bad faith in our political opponents." How very MAGA of you. The whole argument is simply "wouldn't you assume bad faith if the tables were turned?"
No! Let's stop making bad faith the default assumption. If the university says "we want to promote diversity, we expect our professors to promote diversity, and we want an accounting of what you've done to support diversity, because that's your job, but we don't care if you actually believe in the value of diversity personally" then what's wrong with that?
Really, you and your ilk are trying to exert some sort of veto power over universities even making the decision to support diversity, by framing pro-diversity job requirements as somehow conscience-violative. It's super-disgusting. You've really fallen deeply for the hard right's victimization narrative.
If the university says "we want to promote diversity, we expect our professors to promote diversity, and we want an accounting of what you've done to support diversity, because that's your job, but we don't care if you actually believe in the value of diversity personally" then what's wrong with that?
What's wrong with this? Every word of it.
You seem to be assuming that there is no purpose to diversity. Check out the Soucek article linked in the OP - it goes through a number of reasons why educators like diversity beyond for it's own sake.
Then you can engage with the arguments being made, not just your what you think they are.
I was engaging with Randal. Not some other argument some other person made.
But, thanks for your ... input?
I would hardly call it engaging.
It does confirm my suspicions though. This is a policy argument, not a free-speech thing. All y'all want to do is to shut down these diversity initiatives.
It's very pathetic that the right has decided to stop having policy debates and instead turns everything into a grievance. Oh, I'm being persecuted for my political beliefs, wah wah wah! No, you just have a difference of opinion about policy, nothing to get worked up about. Try using your adult words to articulate your position and maybe convince someone else, rather than hide behind a totally fatuous "viewpoint discrimination" whine.
Viewpoint discrimination? Because I think that it is in fact not the job of a university faculty member to pledge to promote diversity, or prove their progressive cred by emoting about their active support thereof?
I suppose that's why you're confused about my engaging your comment.
Again, that's just a policy preference. You think it's not the job of a university to promote diversity, other people think it is. The mystery is how you get from there to a free-speech grievance. (Ok, it's not a mystery, it's Tucker and Jeanine and Marjorie and all the other persecution cult members.)
Asking someone to describe a set of actions they plan to take to accomplish their job is a very typical sort of performance management tactic. They're not asking people to profess a belief in the value of diversity. They're asking people employed by the university to enact university policy.
Shorter you: “Being required to write about how you have and will support communism doesn’t require you to believe in communism. It is just a policy decision by universities to promote communism. They are just hiring people who have and will taken actions to do their jobs, which the university has decided is promoting communism.”
Obviously, communism and diversity aren’t the same thing at all. That isn’t what I am saying at all. But I think the above quote might help you see why I disagree with your approach.
Past and future actions to promote X tend to imply a belief in X.
There is a difference between promoting X and promoting knowledge, the ability to think independently, and research.
This is like EV's "war" analogy. It's hard to see how war is part of a university's educational mission. It's hard to see how communism is part of an educational mission. That's why it seems like, in those examples, the university is acting in bad faith. Why else would a university be promoting war or communism other than indoctrination?
But that's not true of diversity. It's quite easy to see how diversity is part of a university's educational mission. You might not agree with it, but that's your problem. You might think that it's a ruse and still all about indoctrination, but that's just you being a paranoid conspiracist.
It isn’t hard to see war as part of a universities mission of they chose to make it that. We have ROTC programs and entire academic institutions dedicated to the theory and practice of war.
You saying that me not agreeing with the ideology of diversity as part of the mission of a university is “my problem” is no different than me saying that the promotion of war or communism by a university is “your problem.”
We should avoid making universities into ideological footballs. At least if we want to foster bipartisan support for education. Why would half the public support an institution that has decided it is “your problem” if you want to maintain your intellectual independence and dignity?
The idea that an individual is no longer free to challenge the so-called mainstream at these universities and must be assimilated into some borg is frankly disturbing.
You saying that me not agreeing with the ideology of diversity as part of the mission of a university is “my problem” is no different than me saying that the promotion of war or communism by a university is “your problem.”
That's absolutely right, assuming that the promotion of war / communism is legitimately part of their educational mission. If I was complaining about the fact that West Point is ideologically pro-martial, then I'd be making all the same mistakes that you're making.
Except I am not making any mistakes. The public universities we are talking about don’t have a specialized mission but are intended to serve all of society regardless of ideology.
By saying they now only serve the part of society that is willing to ritualistically forfeit their intellectual independence on one particular issue is to partially privatize and partially specialize what was once a general purpose institution that was once supposed to serve the entire public. It is an act of conquest, transforming formerly public property into private property.
This is a wonderful way to alienate anyone who disagrees AND anyone who doesn’t disagree but values their intellectual independence as a matter of principle. It also lowers the respect and esteem we should have for faculty, because by going along they have demonstrated that they are conformists more than independent thinkers.
If we believe that education is a public good for EVERYONE, we should not engage in alienating exclusionary rituals.
"The public universities we are talking about don’t have a specialized mission but are intended to serve all of society regardless of ideology."
Wrong.
Public universities need not offer courses (or respect assertions) concerning how the moon is made of green cheese, our planet is a few thousand years old, certain fairy tales are true and superior to other fairy tales, storks deliver babies, white nationalism is legitimate, gays are depraved and disordered, Blacks should be enslaved, the (or a) Bible is the inerrant word of a deity, QAnon is a reliable genius, quackery conquers coronavirus, a god wants us to wear magic underwear or refrain from cheeseburgers, or any of the other daffy bullshit some gullible dipshits believe. They need not hire faculty members who believe or want to teach any of that bullshit.
David, you're absolutely right that the set of people who are unwilling to attend diverse universities but who are willing to addend non-diverse universities now have fewer choices among public universities.
But there's no "conquest" involved any more than the existence of West Point was the result of a "conquest" by the militaristic right. Universities believe that focusing on diversity will allow them to better serve the entire public. It's not all about you.
Randal,
West Point was never a general purpose university. It has always had a specialized purpose.
And we are not talking about whether people are willing to attend diverse universities or not, but instead whether a particular set if beliefs regarding the complex topic of diversity are to be doctrinaire and whether people who work at such universities will maintain intellectual independence or not.
You've managed to convince yourself that a vast academic conspiracy is operating in bad faith to oppress you. It's very sad, but there's obviously nothing anyone can say to convince you it isn't true. Have fun (?) living in your paranoid dystopia I guess...
Randal,
A lot of moves to curtail freedom are made by people who have good motives. Prohibition, for example. The war on drugs, as another.
By insisting that we shouldn’t make exceptions to the rule that people decide what they think about issues on their own, I am not impugning the motives of anyone with a different perspective.
I do believe that when we travel down this road, this tool will be used in even worse ways in the future. Well-meaning people can be excessively controlling.
You're calling it an "act of conquest," which implies intent. You're calling it a "litmus test," which implies an intent to exclude. So you obviously don't think the motives are pure.
As you said yourself, a focus on diversity can be accomplished without a litmus test, and that would be ok with you. Well, that's reality! No one is trying to oppress you. It's all in your head.
Fostering diversity or any other ideology is not an appropriate goal for a public university to the extent it requires an ideological litmus test. If diversity can be fostered without a litmus test, it is OK for that to be a secondary goal.
It does confirm my suspicions though. This is a policy argument, not a free-speech thing. All y'all want to do is to shut down these diversity initiatives.
I would say it is both. The university should not be coercing speech, especially because this is a policy that should be shut down.
We aren’t falling for anything. The idea that certain ideas should be taken off the table and not debated is antithetical to intellectual progress. Even generally correct ideas become more correct when they face challenges that require adaptation to the nuances if different situations.
The primary missions of a public university are education and research. Both of which benefit from independent thinking rather than blind and unquestioning adherence to core ideologies propagated by leadership figures.
There's nothing about diversity statements that take certain ideas off the table and prevent them from being debated.
That's just the paranoia aka Fox News talking.
There certainly is. Any rational job candidate would think: what should I say to please the person evaluating this diversity statement. Also, to the extent that the diversity statement benefits from activism on behalf of diversity (whatever that means) it is even worse, as it implies a deeper commitment to a particular ideology.
I am not trying to pick on this ideology by the way. The ideology has strengths and weaknesses just like any other. I just do not believe it is legitimate for public universities to promote it (and ideally, private universities with a commitment to academic freedom wouldn’t promote it either).
I mean, sure, in the sense that if you wrote "I really hate teaching" on your application, you're probably not going to get the job. So don't write that. Just put down your teaching experience.
Someone who really loves teaching and says so is probably going to have an advantage over you in securing a teaching position. Maybe that's unfair, if you're a really great teacher despite hating to teach. You'll probably have to work harder to convince the university that you're a good teacher compared to someone who viscerally enjoys it.
Does that bias, however unfortunate, amount to a first amendment violation? Hardly. Anyway it has nothing to do with the diversity statement. It's just the inherent difficulty in applying for a job that you don't like doing.
Teaching is not ideological. Teaching is about transmitting knowledge of the truth, the ability to think independently, and how to perform research. In essence, we teach people how to think, not what to think.
You are trying to shift the mission of the university from a situation where people have individual autonomy to a situation where the leaders of the university do the thinking for them. At least with respect to the topic of diversity. When someone says they support diversity, it isn’t even known what they support since diversity is a complex ideology.
Someone who hates teaching isn’t someone who has adopted a particular belief system (although the reason they hate teaching may or may not be related to some belief system in a less or more complex way). By rejecting candidates who hate teaching, you are not putting your thumb on the scales in favor of or against a particular ideology.
These diversity statements violate the First Amendment. But what concerns me more is that people are seeking to impose them in the first place. It shows a lack of respect for people making up their own mind and an overconfidence that we have now reached the point where individual thinking and individual autonomy have become obsolete with respect to this topic.
That is a fundamentally illiberal attitude.
You are trying to shift the mission of the university from a situation where people have individual autonomy to a situation where the leaders of the university do the thinking for them.
I'm not trying to do that at all. In fact if you read the Soucek article, which I largely agree with, one of its main points is that the evaluation of diversity statements shouldn't be driven by the administration, but rather by the faculty, i.e. peers. That's where the complexities get worked out. Different parts of the university can work out different approaches to diversity, whatever aligns best with their educational mission.
Faculty do not own the university nor should they be gatekeepers that forbid the production of disagreement.
Intelligent disagreement should not be feared, but welcomed. Even if one has generally right views, those views can be made more right through intelligent challenges made to them.
Saying that the only people faculty should tolerate as colleagues are those who have demonstrated commitment to a particular ideology through a series of ritual meant to signal support for that ideology ought to be out of bounds in a free thinking society.
Totally agree with all that (see below).
Teaching is not ideological.
You've obviously never met a teacher!
I don't mean to be flippant. Really, teaching styles are ideologies in the teaching community. Soucek even touches on this a bit. The peer-evaluation model of faculty performance reviews at universities has this problem of fomenting factions and groupthink. It's not specific to DEI.
The statement that is rained yesterday is not ideological. You can believe in communism or capitalism or diversity or non-diversity and accept as fact (or dispute as fact) the statement that it rained yesterday.
I am not saying that teachers are not ideological. Every person is ideological. But teaching in America is about HOW to think for YOURSELF, not HOW to parrot the beliefs of the teacher.
Teaching doesn’t have to be non-ideological in this sense (there exist people who want to brainwash their students) but it can be.
Unless we are going to become a nation of explicitly liberal and explicitly conservative universities, we should keep the ideology out of it.
It's not all about liberal vs. conservative. That's just what the political parties and their media counterparts want it to be about, because it drives turnout and ratings.
When I say that teachers are ideological and factional, I mean about things like, whether it's better to make attendance part of the grade vs. problem sets vs. tests, whether there should be writing assignments in STEM classes, to what extent TAs should do grading, the value of group projects, multiple choice vs. short answer, grade inflation, etc. etc. etc.... these aren't even very good examples since I'm not a teacher, but believe me I've seen teachers argue for hours about this kind of thing. The value and methods of fostering student diversity fit right into this set of ideologies.
Do you encourage conservative judges to stop hiring so many Federalist Society members as clerks?
That is a really good question. Ideally, clerkship opportunities would be equally available despite ideology, but that isn’t currently the case.
President’s definitely consider ideology when selecting cabinet members. Is a clerk to a judge as a cabinet member is to a president? If so, then a judge considering ideology might be legitimate on the same grounds that a president considering ideology. Namely, the risk that the clerk will undermine the judge’s agenda. That said, judges are supposed to be (and should be) less ideologically driven than presidents.
I believe that the majority of government functions, including public universities as a whole, should be ideologically open. If clerks are selected based on ideology (and they are), that should be an exception rather than the rule. But I am not really sure that clerks should be selected based on ideology even though they currently are.
" EV, you disappoint me. You've once again concocted a sickening defense of grievance culture on the hard right. "
That is most of what this white, male, conservative blog has become. Why be disappointed? Do you ever genuinely expect something better or different here?
This is the blog that you love to hate.
200 comments and counting. Ad revenue!
One of President Biden's recent district judge appointments in Washington State had a job posting for law clerks including an explicit requirement for a DEI statement like the ones described in the article. The posting has been rewritten and the DEI statement requirement has been removed, but it struck me as shockingly improper at the time (and likely something that should come up in motions to recuse). Any thoughts on that, Professor Volokh?
Are you bothered by how the remarkable concentration of unreconstructed bigots and hard-right ideologues being hired by conservative judges for publicly funded clerk positions? Do you find anything improper about that viewpoint-discriminatory, taxpayer-funded affirmative action program for movement conservatives?
I remember the case. And it was discussed here at the time. Unfortunately, I don't remember the details well enough to find the article.
This program provided a pleasant, interesting, inconclusive discussion and little or nothing beyond that.
One professor sees value in diversity statements; the other does not. One hopes they will be done well; the other worries they will disadvantage his ideological allies.
I found little or no discussion of constitutionality, let alone the private-public institution distinction. Just some hope that diversity statements might be useful (and lawful) coupled with some hand-wringing about how they might discomfort or disadvantage certain persons.
Most of the audience (naturally) seemed hostile to diversity statements and diversity (except the diversity provided by conservative viewpoints).
A moderator asking probing questions might have improved the program to the point at which it would have been an hour well spent.
It would have been nice to juxtapose the recent spate of states passing laws to limit teaching of subjects related to race and sexual orientation as a sort of anti-diversity statement.
Librarians having to give a statement on the number of books they reviewed for social awareness topics and subsequently banned. Teachers describing how they overlooked non-heterosexual relationships in historical figures and affirming their adherence to deadnaming requirements.
"pedagogical"
Weird way to spell "ideological".
Loyalty oaths are fun!
Right. The problem with the hypo is that supporting the war effort isn't comparable to supporting diversity. A more apt example would be if a school were making particular efforts to draw veterans and required statements from faculty on how they have and will provide support for veterans. One is a political position, the other is a commitment to providing an appropriate learning environment.
It's truly sad that these law professors would be so intellectually dishonest as to frame diversity in education as comparable to war in this context. They may as well argue that police should not be required to take an oath to uphold the law, because it may as well be a hypothetical oath in which they swear to worship Satan. They can be required to state that they'll do their job, and the same can be required of university staff, without necessarily opening the door to unrelated mandates.
None of those are viewpoint based.
" Loyalty oaths are fun! "
And quite popular at the many fourth-tier (or unranked), censorship-shackled, nonsense-teaching, science-suppressing, stridently discriminatory campuses controlled by conservatives such as Bob from Ohio and Prof. Eugene Volokh.
Oh I get the concept, comrade.
No. Conservatives control the hayseed factories; those conservatives are like Bob from Ohio and Prof. Volokh. Conservatives such as Bob from Ohio and Eugene Volokh generally issue undeserved, selective, hypocritical passes to their fellow conservatives for that objectionable conduct while simultaneously nipping at the heels and ankles of strong, mainstream, liberal-libertarian schools..
Speaking of comrades, Bob from Ohio:
The Republicans are pulling money out of Pennsylvania to try to salvage Vance's candidacy in Ohio. Are there enough poorly educated, roundly bigoted, superstitious hayseeds left in Ohio to elect Vance?
I ask because you live in the type of can't-keep-up, declining backwater on which the Vance campaign must rely for votes in Ohio.
Then Arthur has done his job well.
Which is not a movement conservative?
I know you two are trying to be snarky and sarcastic to each other but the non-sarcastic reply is that there simply is no pedagogical reason for those statements. If there were evidence that they had teaching value, the STEM teachers would have identified and adopted those policies first.
Queenie I am wondering about your experience with STEM teachers and how many STEM classes you have taken. The only area of pedagogy STEM teachers seem to embrace is there are correct answers to questions.
As a former teacher, yes.
There were at least 3,154,834 in 2020 (if you believe it wasn't "Rigged") Trump won Ohio with 53.27% of the vote, while Biden received 45.24% of the vote, a margin of 8.03%. Trump won by nearly the same margin that he defeated Hillary Clinton by in 2016
Sounds like the "Klingers" are "Klinging" in O-Hi-O (what do you expect? "Klinger" was from Toledo)
Frank
What are your English Grammar credentials? Subject, meet Verb, Verb, Subject, now agree.
Queenie, I have an undergrad degree in math, and a dual MS/JD degree in Urban Planning and law (mostly land use law but never took the Bar because I was hired before I graduated to do technical work in GIS). I also had some of the first training Garmin offered in GPS and remote sensing and had a long professional career doing GIS work on both mainframes/PDP boxes/PCs and writing DRIs and at times testifying in court justifying why greedy capitalists should be able to build things like PUDs, airports, and various other developments.
In both STEM work and law there really are right and wrong answers; something the woke peeps seem to want to avoid.
Queenie, what's your STEM credentials? You once swallowed a cherry stem while attempting to tie it in a knot with your tongue?
Like people are mostly XX or XY, (OK, there are some odd varieties, XO, XXX, XYY, XXY) and I know I'm setting myself up for every in-breeding insult out there, but the Science is you have to have some "Y" (love eating at the Y) to be a dude.
" In both STEM work and law there really are right and wrong answers; something the woke peeps seem to want to avoid. "
Pointers on accuracy and the reality-based world from the side of the aisle currently steeped in delusion and disaffected, and traditionally fond of superstition at the expense of science and reason, are always a treat.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, anyway.
Ohio is among our nation's left-behind, less-accomplished, shambling states. Most of it is desolate and declining, although there are a few oases of education, enlightenment, and modernity that keep it out of Mississippi-Kentucky-West Virginia-Wyoming territory.
or your current residence??? https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Frank "Et Tu, Jerry?"
And sounds like you got your political geography ed-jew-ma-cation off of whatever Cereal box you got your Law "Degree" (I'm guessing Bullwinkle's "Whatsa-matta-U") Seriously, what's the problem with where you went to law school??? (I'm guessing multiple (redacted) convictions) Only 2 Medical Schools in Alabama, I went to the one that's not UAB.
That's like the 8, 967th time you used that phrase, not certain I've beaten off that many times.
Like the superstition that sex is just a state of mind?
Frank Drackman is the commenter this white, male, conservative blog seeks, attracts, and deserves.
Carry on, clingers.
I have her muted, but WTF is this credentialist gatekeeping nonsense?
Where are your 'Grievance Studies' credentials? I guess you can't opine on those either!
"I don't know what we're talking about, so let me throw in my uninformed 2 cents".
You know how I mentioned before about your lack of substance, reason, or evidence? Yeah, way to burst that bubble... /s
The entirety of the QA comment that Vinni responded to was "What’s your STEM credentials?"
That's why he asked the question.
Rossami, I understand your point. Consider as a counterpoint, Naomi Oreskes book, "Why Trust Science." She has a chapter discussing some examples of fields within the hard STEM sciences making errors because of a lack of inclusion--in once example a lack of women in the field. Now, we can accept or reject Oreskes' conclusion that more inclusion would have avoided the errors... but I think she makes a defensible case for why diversity has its own pedagogical merit even in STEM fields.
Link to the book if you are interested -- it's a pleasant read.
https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691179001/why-trust-science
Depends on what you consider the "Great Books."
I read your comment, and saw credentialist gatekeeping. I told you I didn't read what you replied to in case you wanted to correct my impression.
It seems you prefer to just insult me with that info. Lame.
Then they are both dumb.
I read your comment, and saw credentialist gatekeeping. I told you I didn't read what you replied to in case you wanted to correct my impression.
And proceeded to then make a statement worthy of ridicule, based on your not reading of the source. Which you do regularly enough that your hedging "in case you wanted to correct my impression" is laughable.
Ah, yes, pointing out Queenie's appeal to authority is totes dumb. You wonder why your responses draw insult?