The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The "Good Government Trilemma": Why We Can't Have Democracy, Accountability, and Big Government all at Once
Canadian legal scholar Leonid Sirota outlines some reasons why.
Most people in modern democratic societies want a government that is simultaneously democratic, accountable, and large (in the sense that it carries out a wide range of functions). In an insightful recent blog post on "The Good Government Trilemma," Canadian legal scholar Leonid Sirota explains why we probably can't have all of these things at once. At most, we can only hope to get two out of three:
What is the respective role of democratic and other means of holding a government to account in a well-ordered polity? In one way or another, this question is the subject of live―and lively―debates in many (perhaps all?) democratic societies….
At the risk of generalizing, my impression is that these debates tend to present themselves as clashes between the values of, for lack of better terms, democratic government and accountable government. One side thinks that the important thing is that elected officials get to run the show as they think best, subject to eventually being booted out by the voters. The other thinks that what matters is that the government be kept in check and made to answer for its actions on an ongoing basis, through some mix of elections, judicial supervision, and other accountability mechanisms, either internal to the government (such as ombudsmen and auditors) or external (NGOs and media)….
However, I think that the debate framed in this way is incomplete. It ignores a third factor that needs to be taken into account: the size of the government in question….
I would suggest that the apparent need to trade off between democracy and accountability is in fact only special case of what I will, again for lack of a better term, call the good governance trilemma. Of democracy, accountability, and big government, you can have two ― if you do things well; many polities won't get two, or indeed even one ― but you cannot have all three. It is possible to satisfy the trilemma by choosing fractions ― a dose of democracy, a measure of accountability, a government not quite as big as one might dream of ― but the total cannot go above two, and it will certainly never go anywhere near three. You can't have it all.
How does the trilemma work? Let's start, as most people do, with big government a given. A government so big it takes scores of ― or, in the UK's case, close to a hundred ― ministers of various sorts (or, in the US, agency heads) to run itself, to say nothing of the tens or hundreds of thousands of civil servants. This, of course, is …. our present reality. A citizen who wanted to keep track of what the government is getting up to at a rate of, say, half an hour per minister per week would have a full-time job on his or her hands. And for at least some departments…., half an hour per week hardly seems like it would be anywhere near enough to know what's going on. Never mind ordinary citizens: even members of Parliament would struggle mightily to keep the tabs on the administration by virtue of its sheer size….
Realistically, voters are in no position to keep such a government accountable…. This is why taking big government as a given, as most people today do, leaves you with a necessary trade-off between democracy and accountability. If such a government it is going to be accountable for more than an infinitesimal fraction of its innumerable decisions and actions, it will have to be made accountable to, or at least through, non-democratic or indeed counter-majoritarian institutions….. Alternatively, a big government can be made answerable to voters alone, with no judicial and other interference. But then it would be foolish to expect it to answer for even fairly major screw-ups, let alone the small-scale indignities a large administration visits on those subject to it every day…. not because it's necessarily evil or even especially incompetent, let alone corrupt; but because it is run by fallible human beings….
If, however, one were willing to sacrifice government size, one could at least hope for a government held accountable primarily through electoral means. For one thing, as the government does less, there is simply less for courts and other non-democratic accountability mechanisms to sink their teeth into…. But, less cynically, if government only does a few things, it is easier for citizens to keep track of those few things, and the odds of their using their vote to reward things done well and punish things done badly improve….
Of course, I don't expect many people to share my interest in radically smaller government. Fair enough. But I think that it would be good if they recognized the reality of the trilemma I've outlined in this post. Its cause ― the difficulty for voters and even their representatives to keep track of a large administration ― should not be a matter of partisan controversy. It's a reality that needs to be acknowledged and responded to, whatever values will inform each person's response.
I largely agree with Sirota's position here, including his view that "radically smaller government" is probably the right approach (though, like him, I acknowledge that most people will resist that conclusion). I would add that the obstacles to democratic accountability created by large and complex government are exacerbated by the "rational ignorance" of voters.
Because there is so little chance that any one vote will make a difference to electoral outcomes, there is also little incentive for individual voters to spend more than minimal time and effort seeking out information about government and public policy. Thus, most are often ignorant even of very basic information, such as the names of the three branches of government, much less more complicated facts about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of specific policies. The interaction between rational ignorance and large, complicated government predictably creates a political system where voters' ability to assess government performance is highly questionable, at best. I go into this in much greater detail in my book Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government Is Smarter.
Furthermore, voters also have strong incentives to do a poor job of evaluating the political information they do learn, because many act as biased "political fans" rather than truth seekers. This problem is especially acute during periods of severe partisan polarization, like the present era in American politics.
Some scholars argue we need not worry too much about public ignorance and bias, because voters can use "information shortcuts" to offset the effects of ignorance - small bits of information that substitute for larger bodies of knowledge. Alternatively, even if individual voters are ignorant and make poor decisions, the electorate as a whole still does well because individual errors offset each other, leading to a "miracle of aggregation."
I criticize shortcut theories, miracle-of-aggregation arguments, and other similar ideas in great detail in my book on political ignorance, and other writings. Here, I will merely note that many - particularly on the left - who express great confidence in the ability of democratic government to handle a wide range of complex tasks well, are also deeply concerned about the exploitation of public ignorance and bias by Donald Trump and other right-wing populist leaders.
They are, in my view, right to worry about Trump and his ilk. But if shortcuts and miracles of aggregation are all that they are cracked up to be, Trump and the others should never have gotten as far as they did. And if much of the electorate nonetheless falls for Trump's relatively crude lies and distortions, it seems unlikely they can effectively use shortcuts or other tools to assess more complex tradeoffs and policy issues.
Trump is far from the only politician who effectively exploits public ignorance and bias. So too do more conventional political leaders, including as Barack Obama with his deception about how, under Obamacare, "if you like your health care plan, you can keep it." If most voters don't even understand the basics of how Obamacare works, it's unlikely they can do a good job of evaluating it. The same goes for many other government programs. Trump is just a particularly egregious example of a much broader problem.
As Sirota recognizes, the reality of tradeoffs between democracy, accountability, and size of government doesn't by itself tell us what the role of government in society should be. More generally, there is a range of different potential responses to the problem of political ignorance, which is at the root of the trilemma he outlines. I cover a number of possible approaches in my forthcoming article on this very topic.
If we can radically increase voter knowledge, while simultaneously curbing "political fan" tendencies, then the trilemma might be greatly mitigated. But, for reasons outlined in my book, I highly doubt either is likely to be achieved anytime soon, if ever. Even if you are more optimistic than me on this score, it's hard to deny that the problem is a difficult challenge. Unless and until we do create a vastly more competent electorate, we should at least recognize that there are genuine tradeoffs here. As Sirota reminds us, we "can't have it all."
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Welcome to "Sanctimonious Somin Sunday".
Ilya. Ivy indoctrinated, Beltway, lawyer, Democrat attack running dog. Dismissed.
Quality, price, time. Choose 2. Cannot have 3. Same thing.
The remedy is technology. All three are available for a toilet to the poorest person in the country compared to Louis XIV, who would be a trillionaire today.
Take the $trillion wasted on the law, and put it into research and development. For example, the worthless, toxic lawyer is doing nothing, as millions of hackers plunder our nation. Al algorithms find them, send drones that lob grenades into their apartments after pressing Enter.
Any analysis not including rent seeking is just gaslighting and ridiculous.
Any analysis of government that omits the phrase, rent seeking, is gaslightin' and dismissed.
Blocked by 2 lawyers on Twitter, one a Latina, the other a diversa.
I tried to make Eugene's point about the N word, Free Speech Clause. I demanded she confess to Diverse Privilige since diverses use it all the time. Blocked.
The diverses said, I should be wary about my safety. I said, I know. Diverse Privilege makes you people hold your side arms sideways.
What about Peter Turchin's "elite overproduction" theory? Did some of the aggrieved, overproduced elites go into law school to improve their personal socioeconomic outlook, in the process becoming ... lawyers?
This surplus of elites expects to be hired by government. Their salaries are to be paid by rent seeking. Rent seeking is the collection of money at the point of a gun, and giving to a special interest, returning nothing of value. Its opposite is a profit. A useful road built by government is a profit. An effective police that stops crime is a profit. Bloated bureaucracies producing delay and the stymie of production is a rent.
" As Sirota reminds us, we "can't have it all." "
Is it unwise to predict that Prof. Sirota (who appears to be conservative) wants to have (1) a claim he favors "radically maller government" and also (2) statist womb management and big-government micromanagement of ladyparts clinics?
Should we doubt he also supports a number of other exceptions (flattering right-wing preferences) to diminished government?
Murder is murder no matter how small.
If you figure an abortion a week or two into pregnancy is murder, you have an unpopular position; are likely addled by adult-onset superstition (people are entitled to believe as they wish, but competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition-based arguments in reasoned debate concerning public affairs); and either must be prepared to imprison women whose conduct precipitates early miscarriages or are entirely unprincipled.
Are you a member of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management?
what is murder? The destruction of a unique viable genetic code. ergo the destruction of an embryo post fertilization is murder.
You saying a woman has no control over her body after she's raped, Sansos? Yeah... I thought so
No I just fail to see what the murder of an innocent third party has to do in any way with the rape. It'd be like vivisecting your neighbor after your house got robbed.
A very libertarian position that highlights, by omission, the fundamental problem with libertarianism: The idea that only the government should be accountable to the people as a whole. In sane-person land, people want accountability for powerful or wealthy individuals and organizations that are not part of government.
Decreasing the scope of government inevitably leads to less accountability for private entities. While keeping tabs on government officials is extremely difficult, doing so for private entities is literally impossible. While a single vote is small recourse, a single person's boycott is even less effective (and not an option if the bad actor isn't a business).
A pretty obvious point you make, Drewski. Why do you suppose you never hear anything about that from libertarians?
Because libertarians don’t presume guilt based on envy, I guess.
Libertarian theory, and Marxist theory, are beautiful theories. Unfortunately neither has any application in the real world where the rest of us actually live.
What libertarians miss is that if someone is abusing power, it makes no difference to the people being abused if the abusers work for the government or not. Back in the days when we had child laborers being chained to work benches 14 hours a day, and companies paying their workers in scrip redeemable at the company store, that was every bit as oppressive as the gulags. You think the children, or the workers, cared that they were being ill treated by private corporations rather than by big bad gummint?
IMHO it's a heck of a lot easier for someone to replace Wal-Mart with another employer than it is to replace Washington with another government.
Ok so why didn’t those child laborers, back when child labor was legal, simply change jobs?
Why is it always stuff from decades and centuries ago? Try a modern example to justify what you want for today.
Time already solved every problem of everyone from the 18th century.
No, government regulations solved many of those problems. I sometimes wish government hating libertarians could go back and spend a month as laborers before workplace safety rules, before minimum wage, before weekends, before overtime and when company towns were all the rage. You’re simply discounting how awful thing were before regulation.
What if there were choices besides Dickensian child labor and infinite government meddling in everything?
Then we could talk about what’s happening instead of living in the distant past.
Who said anything about infinite government meddling in everything?
Wait wait, a straw man...from a right wing commenter here. No way!
Ben has dumped enough straw in this conversation to make the entire internet a fire hazard.
"What if there were choices besides Dickensian child labor and infinite government meddling in everything?"
What might be the difference between Dickensian child labor and infinite government meddling in everything? Oh, one existed in the real world, and one only in your imagination.
And the one that existed was ended only by regulatory government.
As with Krychek, I invite you to expound on the word "only." Popping up events A and B on a timeline doesn't demonstrate A was responsible for B, or even if it was that there weren't other more efficient/optimal paths to B and A was simply the one that achieved early dominance.
All those 18th century kids would still be the same age working in the same factories in this story.
Without government, time would not have passed.
What about human nature has changed in the past 100 years? Are you suggesting that people with the ability to abuse other people don't do it any more?
Have anything to offer on that beyond correlation fallacy? As Ben mentioned, you're comparing conditions ~100 years ago to today, without accounting for sea changes in technology, mobility, communications, etc., as well as tort law.
Also child labor was very often at the behest of the parents who had to chose between a child working and a family starving, just like in many third world nations today, by the time child labor was banned in many polities the equation changed by rising productivity to a child going to school and a child working and 95% of all parent chose the child going to school.
Suppose for sake of argument you're right about that. Same question I asked Ben: Has human nature changed in the past hundred years? Do people with the ability to abuse others no longer do so?
Maybe the issue wouldn't be child labor but if not, it would be something else. People aren't angels. Given the opportunity to exploit others, they typically do so.
You're just making the case for why we shouldn't allow huge blocs of those people to become entrenched in governmental agencies where they have more leverage to exploit people and less accountability for doing so.
student loan forgiveness being a prime example.
But government, at least in theory, reports to the voters. Corporations report to their shareholders. The interests are different.
Nobody is arguing that government is run by angels either. But at least it has to stand for re-election every two years.
"for powerful or wealthy individuals and organizations that are not part of government. "
Define the above.
If you are a new, minimum wage employee at McDonald's is your manager among the powerful and wealthy whom government should hold accountable?
The people who run McDonalds at the corporate level certainly are.
...and if they break an existing law they should be held liable and prosecuted.
Does it matter whether these "powerful or wealthy individuals and organizations that are not part of government" did anything wrong? Or do you consider them guilty until proven innocent?
Shouldn’t you have to prove someone guilty of wrongdoing before subjecting them to "accountability"? Why not?
Do you believe everyone should be on trial all the time? Or just some people (presumably not yourself)?
We have far too much experience with evil corporations doing terrible things to buy that argument. Fortune 100 companies need to be watched like a hawk for the same reason the Justice Department needs to be watched like a hawk: They've done bad things in the past, and it would be nice to reduce the opportunities for them to do bad things in the future.
So your answer is no. You are prejudiced. You believe in presumed guilt.
Keeping an eye on someone is not presumed guilt. I watch my employees to be sure they’re doing their jobs
If you feel so inclined, you could try responds to my central point.
So, to your employees are you "rich and powerful"?
So you’re personally volunteering to be watched closely and judged every minute of your life?
Or is that only for people you’re prejudiced against, not for you?
I haven’t said a word that even remotely suggests prejudice. Nor have I suggested anyone be watched every minute of their lives. You’d be far more persuasive if you didn’t persist in attributing to people things they haven’t said.
You’re not giving "Fortune 100 companies" the presumption of innocence. How is that not prejudice?
You said they "need to be watched like a hawk". Which minutes of their lives did you mean they shouldn’t be watched? Is there some respite implied in hawk-like watching?
Why aren’t you volunteering to be "watched like a hawk" yourself? Double standards?
First of all, what makes you think a presumption of guilt is the only reason for keeping an eye on someone? I can think of several other reasons -- ensuring compliance with the law, just for starters. When code enforcement inspects new construction, they're not presuming guilt; they're ensuring the law has been complied with, and most of the time it has been. In states that do routine vehicle inspections, same. When you go through customs and immigration upon return from foreign travel, same. No presumption of guilt on any of those inspections; just checking to be sure the law is being complied with.
Second, I have ten employees. The government is entitled to check to ensure that I'm complying with wage and hour laws, workplace safety laws, anti-discrimination laws, and so forth. None of those checks -- and I think I've been audited once in twenty years, so they don't even happen that often -- is based on a presumption of guilt. Rather, it's to ensure the law is being complied with. You watch your kids on the same principle.
But that is not license for the government to follow me around 24/7, nor is it a license for the government to follow around the people who run Fortune 100 companies 24/7. They can inspect what they need to inspect to ensure compliance with the law; that does not get to mean they get to pur listening devices in my house; if they want to do that, they do need probable cause.
Really, this is so simple I'm having trouble understanding why it's going over your head.
And no, my central point is that there is ample evidence of misbehaving corporations.
If you don’t want to sound prejudiced, don’t imply guilt toward classes of individuals and organizations.
If you’re for the same scrutiny for everyone, don’t point at a specific class of people or organizations and demand that they in particular need to be "watched like a hawk".
Saying that a specific class of people did stuff wrong in the past, and so everyone in that class needs to be watched extra closely is commonly called prejudice.
I want the same scrutiny for everybody who's similarly situated. And I could equally as well claim that you're just prejudiced against government regulation, and it would carry the same weight as your repeated claims that I'm prejudiced against big corporations. And, be honest, that's part of it: You don't want government to work, so you're inclined to put as many obstacles in its way as you can.
Ben, stop conflating corporations and natural people. They are not alike.
Corporations are legal fictions, granted some person-like powers, and granted some unique-to-them powers. Experience has taught that availability of the corporate form can be used to empower some natural persons who run corporations over others who do not run corporations.
Experience also teaches that the privilege of corporate administration encourages some natural persons to disregard ethical constraints they might otherwise follow in their purely personal lives. Ethical disregard judged blameworthy in a natural person can be made to look virtuous in a corporate manager. That has often happened. Many pro-corporate advocates delight in that.
In addition, corporate governance on a per-share voting basis opens the door to the phenomenon of political influence founded on plutocratic principles, instead of on democratic principles. Because the corporate form can be corrupted for political purposes, it can make disproportionate amounts of money, derived directly from commerce, compete for political influence with the smaller sums typically available to natural persons. Mangers of per-share voting corporations can divert money they do not personally own from the business purposes they manage, and apply that money instead to buy political influence on behalf of their strictly private political objectives. Doing that has become commonplace. That gives those managers an enormous political advantage in political competitions against natural persons who do not manage corporations.
In short, the problem is that the corporate form divides control of American governance into two unlike and unequal classes of political activity. Both classes are managed by natural persons, but those persons privileged to access corporate wealth are enormously more politically powerful than the others.
None of that was included as part of the scheme of American governance contemplated by the founders. It has proved dangerous to good governance, and corrosive to the notion of political equality.
There is no prejudice at all in learning that lesson taught by national experience. Stupidity ignores it, especially ideologically-inspired pro-corporate stupidity.
None of that implies that the corporate form cannot be useful and salutary for the commercial purposes it was invented to foster. The problem is entirely about keeping its influence out of politics.
And if you feel so inclined you could respond to my central point.
Your central point is that you've decided that someone probably did something wrong and that they should be under suspicion.
Why should someone respond to your notions about completely general things?
Are they immune to civil lawsuit?
Government employees are.
But it seems like a random question unless to expand on it.
Civil lawsuits are how people are held accountable.
And regulation is how you reduce the problem in the first place, which strikes me as the far preferable solution to cleaning up messes afterward.
That is a great false narrative you have here. The idea that without government oversight, non-government entities have nobody to “control” then or restrain their worst tendencies.
Now for reality which you and Krychek_2 seem to be missing. Whatever action government takes, it benefits someone and harms others. The reality of the modern state is that every action it has taken benefits the politically connected. Often, that means the very entities about which you are concerned.
So when, for example, government regulations of airlines were in place before 1979, a small handful of airlines controlled major markets and smaller airlines got the scraps. Ticket prices made air travel expensive and the big incumbent airlines were protected from competition.
Along comes Pres. Carter and airline deregulation. “Oh no, nobody to watch out for the consumer and safety will be ignored!!”
In fact, many of the protected airlines found they were unable to compete in the new marketplace. From being at the top, they ended up in bankruptcy within a matter of a few years. With the new competition, prices dropped but there were and also levels of service one can purchase that are higher than the low-price airlines, depending on consumer needs and demand.
The fact is, government does not protect the consumer from rampant corporate entities, competition does that. All government does is protect the “big boys” or grant them legitimacy when they are acting fraudulently.
Bernie Madoff and Elizabeth Holmes are two examples of the regulatory system granting legitimacy to people committing fraud. In the minds of investors with these two individuals, having passed regulatory scrutiny eliminated the need for due diligence.
It may be cliche to say competition is the best regulator of industry but what we can say with certainty is that government is definitely nothing more than protection for the very thing that concerns you. Large corporations and businesses that act with impunity, defraud consumers and create damaging externalities.
There is a useful distinction to be made between different types of libertarian. The dogmatic libertarian doesn't recognise that there are any problems. The principled libertarian may accept that there are problems but would tend to regard them as the price of freedom from government. The pragmatic libertarian thinks that freedom is not restricted to freedom from government and the government can intervene if the outcome ultimately leads to greater overall freedom. Gross simplification but you get the point.
Or if you like, the first one has axioms, the second one has principles, and the third one has rebuttable presumptions.
Serious question for you, whose is more powerful than the elites in Government?
A quick look around the world shows governments with strong arms to control "powerful or wealthy people not part of government" yields poverty and third world status, as all these people you imagine are shits, move into government and live a nice life of corruption.
The solution to shitty people in power is not to wrap it all up in one little package.
That the federal government replaced the states as the layer of insinutating control shows this. And it is happening in Europe, where the nations are on a course to become quaint anachronistic states, and at four times the rate of the US.
The criticism of Trump is odd in this context because Trump wasn’t trying to grow government. If smaller government is more honest, more democratically accountable government, then aren’t you really saying something like Trump made you feel bad about the way he was approaching a good objective?
Versus the other side that does exactly the same thing (and worse) in the service of bigger, more powerful, less democratically accountable government. But you buy into their propaganda, so you don’t feel bad.
Even before the pandemic in 2019 the deficit hit a trillion under Trump…while Obama’s last 3 years featured similar GDP growth with smaller deficits.
Oh yes he was. What do you call overturning Roe v. Wade if not growing government?
Giving the choice back to the American people, from whom it was illegitimately taken away by fiat 50 years ago.
How many new government bureaus sprang into existence upon Roe being overturned? None.
Keeping an eye on someone is not presumed guilt. I watch my employees to be sure they’re doing their jobs
If you feel so inclined, you could try responds to my central point.
Random people you’re prejudiced against aren’t your "employees". They don’t answer to you.
Sorry for the duplicate comment. Doesn’t matter which level of government is depriving women of choice; the point still is government is bigger than it was because it is now making reproductive decisions for women.
So argue against it with your state representative. That’s democracy.
Banning abortion is expanding government. Stop changing the subject.
Ending Roe didn’t ban anything.
It allowed the states to ban it, which is expanding government.
Trump isn’t in charge of what state and local governments do.
Just the slack-jawed, can't-keep-up, conservative states, at least so far . . .
Always great to see another rousing meeting of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management and Big-Government Micromanagement Of Ladyparts Clinics convened at an ostensibly libertarian site (that seems to attract mostly bigoted, disaffected right-wingers).
Allowing abortion also expands government, thanks to all the related medical and surgical facilities that need to be licensed, inspected, watched like hawks, prosecuted when they turn out a Kermit Gosnell, etc.
These are your followers, your target audience, Volokh Conspirators.
A bunch of stupid bigots and disaffected misfits.
Which, I have concluded, is precisely how it should be.
Bad example Michael P. When was the last time you saw a government agent inspecting your dentist or surgeon? Every one of these hyperbolic statements you make causes me to respect you less
No, the President unilaterally deciding to forgive some people's debt is "expanding" government.
I dont particularly care if the police go after murderers and in fact i consider it to be a legitimate form of government.
Yes, that was rather glaring. "But if shortcuts and miracles of aggregation work are all that they are cracked up to be, Trump and the others should never have gotten as far as they did."
He's perilously close to defining "working" as "producing the same out come you'd get if I were calling the shots".
That must have been the alternate universe Trump.
One side thinks that the important thing is that elected officials get to run the show as they think best, subject to eventually being booted out by the voters. The other thinks that what matters is that the government be kept in check and made to answer for its actions on an ongoing basis, through some mix of elections, judicial supervision, and other accountability mechanisms, either internal to the government (such as ombudsmen and auditors) or external (NGOs and media)….
Given the overwhelming tendency of U.S. citizens to ignore the role in American constitutionalism of a national sovereign separate from government, perhaps it is asking too much to expect a Canadian to do better. But Sirota really ought to consider looking into it. The notion that accountability for American government comes from some unsystematic mix of almost-random factors did not occur to Washington, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison, Adams, Jefferson, James Wilson, or most of the other founders. They systematized a structure of government meant to be accountable top-down, with a continuously active joint sovereign among the American People as the keystone at the top. They were well aware that the structure they created was novel, untested, and an experiment. They were uncertain whether it could last. But it did.
Admittedly, if you leave that part out, other commentary about American constitutionalism becomes confusing and unpersuasive. Sirota's article suffers from that.
Somin's argument is only valid if one assumes it's all or nothing. It is possible to give up some accountability for more democracy, or some democracy for better services. There will always be trade offs. So long as we have reasonable amounts of all three, I'm good.
He did quote Sirota on that point: "It is possible to satisfy the trilemma by choosing fractions ― a dose of democracy, a measure of accountability, a government not quite as big as one might dream of ― but the total cannot go above two, and it will certainly never go anywhere near three. You can't have it all."
Yeah. It was a breathtaking ipse dixit. You don't usually get those except from advocates drunk on ideological reasoning they never thought to examine critically.
Any argument looks like ipse dixit if you ignore the supporting arguments.
To ignore supporting arguments is the task ideology was invented to enable.
So, I gather you're quibbling over 1.9 vs 2.1, rather than claiming the total can go to three, that you can have the best of everything?
So far, for arguments, we see we're prejudiced against some non-government people and prejudiced in favor of government people, so never mind accountability for government.
The argument loop:
1. Corporations and rich people are bad.
2. We need bigger government to counter corporations and rich people.
3. Oh no, corporations and rich people have vast influence over government now. Because, wealth and power are always influential in every society in all of history. Duh.
4. Go back to step 1 and repeat. Prejudice means we can never learn anything.
If you find someone who actually said that let us know.
LOL, sometimes statists like you can be rather obtuse
Michael, if you find someone who actually said that, let us know. Your caricatures are not reality.
Because spelling it out clearly would give the game away. People aren’t going to agree to go full Soviet. So that objective needs to be hidden and denied while pushing it a little at a time.
Also, different rules for people and organizations you don’t like isn’t "prejudice" because… Look! A squirrel!
You seem to dislike modern America, Ben_. Yet your stale, ugly arguments are not persuasive to most Americans, especially those in educated, modern, economically adequate communities. It doesn't appear you are even trying to persuade mainstream America, perhaps because you recognize there aren't enough superstitious, bigoted, half-educated slack-jaws left in America to change the tide of the culture war in your conservative direction.
That makes you a loser. Until replacement.
Ben, I've heard the claim that Republicans are Nazis on pretty much the same reasoning you're using here.
You also noticed that Democrats can’t keep themselves from name-calling. Congrats.
If you can’t argue, just make up a strawman!
Let's rephrase this.
1. The people running corps and the rich are shits.
2. Create a government to make them kneel.
3. WHY ARE THEY NOW POPULATING THE GOVERNMENT?!??!!
Again, utter strawman.
Because (DUH!) look at every society everywhere throughout history. Where are the examples with government that’s not very highly influenced by wealthy people and organizations?
But we should all believe that Democrats are going to succeed at being independent watchdogs over corporations this time, even though no one ever succeeded before. (There are some very isolated, very short periods of time where it looked like government wasn’t beholden to wealthy interests. But nature always reasserts itself.)
'Wealthy interests.' You sound like a dime-store communist, with the idea that rich people are a hive mind and always seek the same thing.
Government has different incentives than markets. Unless you think every regulation is primarily about rent-seeking, it would seem that these incentives result in pretty different end-goals.
The libertarian obsession with the "size" of government is one of the problems I have with that political philosophy. It is an inherently subjective measure, for one thing. For another, the power and scope of government will always be different for different situations and problems. There is no one answer to the question of how "big" government should be, even if you accept the validity of the question.
As Krychek_2 says, there will be trade offs, but never a "correct" size of government.
It should also be noted that the structure of democratic government matters as well. Part of the accountability piece in the U.S. is that different parts of government are elected independently, even at different times, powers are divided, and branches can check each other. Between the separation of powers at the federal level and federalism itself, U.S. government is going to be less efficient and effective than systems where the whole national government is elected at once and power is more concentrated at the national level.
"As Krychek_2 says, there will be trade offs, but never a "correct" size of government. "
The "correct" size of government is the smallest one that does the things it was empowered to do by its founding charters and taxing only to the extent necessary to fund those legitimate responsibilities.
There is a correct size of government: NONE.
We are not subject to be lorded over by others.
There are regular flights to Somalia.
I guess you've not come across the concept of "trade-off".
"
No need to go that far. Plenty of places in the US like SF and Portland.
Are you under some ahistorical impression that Somalian factions don’t attempt to “lord it over”* one another? I think you’re confusing your memes: Somalia is used as an example of a limited taxation “no roads”, supposedly libertarian ideal end state. Sheesh.
*Cf. General Mohamed Farrah Aidid for a little history of Somali “lords” of the War variety.
It is an inherently subjective measure, for one thing
The example I think of is to contrast two governments. One imposes a 30% average personal tax rate, running a larger government in terms of numbers and expenditures, but lets you spend your money on pretty much anything you want to. The other has a 15% tax rate running a smaller government, but bans drugs, porn, books and magazines deemed offensive, and abortion.
How do you determine which regime is freer? Clearly it's not just a matter of how much you're taxed or how much money the government spends. It is evidently subjective.
"U.S. government is going to be less efficient and effective than systems where the whole national government is elected at once and power is more concentrated"
Efficiency and effectiveness are not ends in themselves.
And I didn't say that they were. I just thought that this is another trade-off that should be considered when thinking about U.S. government in particular.
This is like my 3-column family dinner at a Chinese restaurant for religious freedom:
http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/politic/religious.html
It doesn't help when you live in a corrupt banana republic....
This is a variation of a theme for me. Many years ago read an article, whose thesis was you cannot have it all in life. That is one can have a good marriage, a good family, and a good career is just not in the cards. It spreads us to thin. It went on to expand the theme, that one could do any two very well, but the third would suffer. This just applies it to government. Totally agree with it, there are limits as to what can be achieved in life and in government, but most people do not want to make sacrifices, they want other people to do it for them.
"Good, fast, or cheap. You can have (at most) any two."
Perhaps I've missed earlier discussion of the real issues.
ONE: Set proper functions of government. Defend the border, keep civil peace, enforce contracts, protect premises of free market. Arguably humane safety net for deserving needy.
TWO: Hard cap on how much GDP govt. may seize, term limits on govt. service.
Seems questions here are settled once we answer.
As a matter of principle, term limits are undemocratic. As a matter of practice, the absence of term limits lessens democracy. I think an effective compromise is to impose limits on continuous terms but not total terms, e.g., a senator must step down after two terms but can stand for re-election after another term (or two) has passed. The people should be able to elect who they want, after all.
We can't decide on one, so we're never going to get to two.
Thank you for this socially important great article. It was a big pleasure to read. It is often very difficult to reach a consensus with government bodies, not because they are bad ones, but just because there is a massive number of tasks they need to handle. My wife works for the NGO and for a while she hadn't been able to establish any dialog, without any perspective in the foreseeable future. But a Government & Non-Profit lobbying firm I found for her proved to be very efficient, so I hope that will keep the ball rolling. We all deserve positive changes.