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A Broader Perspective on "My Body, My Choice"
The principle has implications that go far beyond abortion. Some of them deserve far more attention than they have gotten to this point.

The Supreme Court's reversal of Roe v. Wade has re-focused attention on the moral principle of "My Body, My Choice," advanced by the pro-choice movement. I agree with both the general principle, and with almost of all of its applications to the specific case of abortion. But the idea has implications that go far beyond abortion, including many of that are easier to defend and some that could potentially save large numbers of lives.
It frustrates me that many who propound the principle when it comes to abortion ignore or even oppose it in other contexts. Many on the political right are also inconsistent when it comes to issues of bodily autonomy.
In this post, I explain why abortion is a relatively hard case for the "My Body, My Choice" principle. If you believe (as I do) that it nonetheless applies here, you should be even more willing to apply it in many other cases. And some of those other applications are enormously significant.
Abortion is actually a difficult issue - even for libertarians and others who generally take a broad view of bodily autonomy. Political philosopher Michael Huemer and Clark Neily and Jay Schweikert of the Cato Institute have helpful discussions of the reasons why. I won't try to go over all of their analysis. But much of it comes down to the reality that there is a plausible case that abortion involves the taking of innocent life. And if it does, that effect happens almost every time. It's not just a marginal probablistic risk.
To be sure, libertarians and many others argue that we don't necessarily have a moral duty to save lives whenever we can, especially not one that should be enforced by the government. Similarly, Anglo-American law holds there is no liability if you walk by a baby drowning in a lake and choose not to save her (though some philosophers and legal scholars believe there should be). But, if a fetus has a right to life comparable to that of a baby, then abortion is a stronger case for regulation than the "drowning baby" scenario. In most, though not all, cases (rape is an obvious exception) the pregnant woman had a major role in putting the fetus in a position of jeopardy in the first place, by voluntarily choosing to have unprotected sex.
This makes the situation very different from one where the drowning baby was in peril for reasons having nothing to do with the person who might be able to save it. If you threw the baby in the water, or he ended up there through your negligence, you do indeed have a legal or moral duty to save him.
I think that "my body my choice" nonetheless justifies foregoing abortion restrictions in the vast majority of situations. Primarily, that's because I think fetuses (except perhaps in the very late stages of pregnancy) do not have a right to life comparable to that of infants. In addition, the severity of the burden imposed on pregnant women's bodily autonomy by abortion restrictions imposes a high burden of proof on defenders of such laws. I don't think pro-lifers have met that burden. But the issue is a genuinely hard one, despite the tendency of many on both sides to think that it's easy.
By contrast, a large number of other restrictions on bodily autonomy are much simpler cases, at least if you believe in a strong presumption in favor of "my body, my choice."
I listed several examples in a 2019 post on this subject. The list below includes some additions, whose importance has been highlighted by recent events:
1. Organ markets should be legalized. People should be free to sell kidneys, for example (subject, perhaps, to informed consent requirements). If someone wants to sell a kidney, the response to prohibitionists should be: "you can't tell her what to do with her goddamn body, ever." Your kidney is part of your body, and the decision to sell should be your choice. As an extra bonus, legalizing such sales would save many thousands of lives.
2. Laws against prostitution should be abolished. They most definitely restrict people's freedom to control their own bodies (both prostitutes and their customers). The prostitute's body belongs to her, and using it for prostitution is her choice. Prostitution bans also restrict the bodily autonomy of customers. Thus, we should reject laws that punish them, while letting the prostitutes themselves go free. The "johns" own their own bodies no less than the prostitutes do. The kind of consensual sex you engage in with your body should be your choice.
3. The War on Drugs should be abolished. All of it. Not just the ban on marijuana. Its whole purpose is to restrict what sorts of substances you can put in your body. What you put in your body should be your choice. And, like the ban on organ sales, the War on Drugs harms large numbers of people, both in the US and abroad, in countries like the Phillippines and Mexico.
4. The government should not try to control people's diets through "sin taxes," or restrictions on the size of sodas, and other such regulations. Here too, the goal is to restrict what we put in our bodies. If that leads to increased government spending on health care, the right solution is to restrict the subsidies, not bodily autonomy.
5. Draft registration, mandatory jury service, and all other forms of mandatory service should be abolished (if already in force) or taken off the political agenda (if merely proposed). All such policies literally expropriate people's bodies. What work you do with your body should be your choice.
6. We should legalize and use challenge trials for testing new vaccines against deadly diseases. The resulting earlier authorization of Covid-19 vaccines might have saved many thousands of lives. And it could save many more if we permit the use of challenge trials in the future.
7. Government-imposed mask mandates and lockdowns should be forbidden, or at least there must be very strong presumptions against them. Accumulating evidence suggests that lockdowns did little good, and that the benefits of mask mandates are also modest, at best, as indicated by the serious flaws in the study most often cited to support them. At the very least, true advocates of "my body, choice" should have a strong presumption against such measures, inasmuch as they are truly massive intrusions on bodily autonomy, at least if continued for more than very brief periods. If they can be justified at all, it can only be by overwhelming evidence of large, life-saving effects. Or at least that's true if you have a strong commitment to "my body, my choice."
8. People should be allowed to take experimental medical treatments not approved by government regulators. That's especially true if the treatments have a significant chance of saving people from death or serious illness.
9. The Biden administration should drop its proposed ban on "vaping" and Juul e-cigarettes. Respect for "my body, my choice" requires us to let people decide for themselves whether they want to consume such products or not.
Like my earlier 2019 list, the above is far from exhaustive. But it's at least a rough indication of what truly consistent application of "my body, my choice" entails.
The organ market and challenge trial cases are especially worth highlighting. In both cases, eliminating limitations on bodily autonomy would not only expand freedom of choice, but also save enormous numbers of lives! This makes these situations far easier cases than abortion, where - as discussed above - there is a serious argument that freedom of choice entails the taking of innocent life. And yet organ markets and challenge trials get no more than a fraction of the attention and support that are focused on abortion rights.
Several of the items on the above list highlight inconsistencies by pro-choice liberals. But there is no shortage of similar inconsistency on the right. Consider, for example, conservatives who oppose mask and vaccine mandates on grounds of bodily autonomy, but strongly support the War on Drugs and laws banning prostitution.
Some will object that many of the cases described above must be ruled out because they involve restrictions on activities that are dangerous to health or safety (e.g. - prostitution, taking risky illegal drugs, and so on). If an activity is too dangerous, then government should be able to ban it in order to protect people from their own worst impulses.
But if that's your view, you're not really a supporter of "my body, my choice." Rather, you believe people should only be allowed to make choices that the government (or perhaps some group of experts) deems sufficiently safe. Among other flaws, such paternalism overlooks the possibility that people may legitimately differ over the amount of risk they are willing to accept.
Another standard objection to some of the items on my list is the fear that allowing them would lead to "exploitation" of the poor. For example, the poor may face more pressure to sell organs, become prostitutes, participate in challenge trials (if participants in the latter are allowed to be paid). I have responded to this objection in some detail in previous writings on organ markets and challenge trials.
Here, I will add that the very same issue arises with abortion. After all, many abortions occur at least in part because the women who get them are poor and want to avoid further economic hardship. If we are going to bar poor people from taking risks with their bodies in order to alleviate difficult economic circumstances, that, too, entails massive deviation from "my body, my choice."
Regular readers may wonder whether the above is consistent with my willingness to support some types of vaccination mandates. The answer is that this stance is consistent with the framework outlined in my 2019 post on this subject (written before the Covid pandemic made this a high-profile issue):
I do not believe any right should be absolute. A great enough harm… might justify restricting virtually any liberty, if that were the only way to prevent it. But those who take the principle of bodily autonomy seriously should at least adopt a strong presumption against restrictions, and only support them in cases where there is very strong evidence both that the harm exists and that restricting liberty will solve the problem without creating comparably serious harms of its own.
I should clarify that the "great harm" in question is harm to third parties, not to the person whose autonomy is being restricted. In the case of vaccination against deadly contagious diseases, the harm prevented is potentially very great (loss of thousands of lives) and the restriction on liberty is small. In most cases, once you get the shot you can go back to your normal life very quickly, and you no longer even notice the presence of the vaccine. That's a sharp contrast with such cases as lockdowns, mask mandates, the War on Drugs, and - yes - abortion restrictions, which impose severe constraints on liberty over long periods of time, sometimes even indefinitely.
Obviously, the case for vaccination mandates also rests on the assumptions that 1) vaccination significantly reduces disease spread (as opposed to merely protecting the vaccinated themselves), and 2) voluntary vaccination won't be widespread enough to make compulsion unnecessary. Thus, defensible vaccination mandates are a fairly unusual case where the combination of large potential benefits and the very modest nature of the restriction on liberty, combine to overcome even a strong presumption in favor of bodily autonomy.
This post, like its predecessor, obviously cannot do justice to all the implications of "my body, my choice," or deal with all possible case-specific arguments for restriction. Elsewhere, I have addressed some of the latter with respect to organ sales, mandatory jury service, and mandatory national service generally, among other cases. In each such case, "my body, my choice" at least requires a strong presumption against restrictions, one that can only be overcome by strong evidence of large third-party benefits.
Despite unavoidable limitations, I hope this post at least shows that many supporters of the "my body, my choice" principle should consider broadening their horizons by applying it more consistently, to a wider range of issues. Some of those issues even involve massive, glaring injustices that so far have failed to attract more than a fraction of the attention they deserve.
UPDATE: I have made a few minor additions to this post.
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"In most cases, once you get the shot you can go back to your normal life very quickly, and you no longer even notice the presence of the vaccine."
Unless, of course, you're dead.
Or lose your arms and legs.
I know Ilya opposes Kelo. It refers to property and applies to chattel. I am interested in enacting presumptive organ donation, meaning, all corpses may be taken for organ harvesting. If the family has strong objection and prefers to feed the corpse to the worms, they may move to prevent the donation. That would save 50000 people who pass away on the transplant waiting list.
Or turn into a werewolf.
Side effects include anal leakage, projectile vomiting, and premature death.
Committing suicide also falls within the principle of bodily autonomy. There should not be any legal penalties for when such attempts fail - say when one gets rescued. Similarly, suicide watches for inmates should not be .... watched.
Also, being able to sell one's own organs also satisfies the principle. For instance, one could sell an eye or a kidney to make some money.
Cross,
This issue was specifically mentioned in the OP.
I've always been troubled by the fact every single person in the organ donation process is compensated except for the actual person making the donation.
The person getting the organ is not compensated either.
Damned well are: They're getting an organ.
If "Reverend" Arthur Sandusky-Kirtland offers you an "Organ" don't take it, you'll literally be "taking it"
Frank
True, but then again they are the one purchasing, either directly or through insurance, the service. Not aware of any store that pays me to shop, for example.
You pay the store with money, they pay you in groceries or whatever. It's a reciprocal exchange.
They are paying for the service of installing the organ, but not for the organ itself.
Nonsense. That's a fiction we are telling ourselves. That would be like saying you are paying the mechanic to install the new brakes on your car, not for the actual brake pads themselves.
The manufacturer of the brake pads gets paid when the shop purchases them wholesale. You then pay for parts (and markup) and labor.
The kidney recipient is paying for the doctor to perform the operation (and markup), but not for the kidney.
and we will end up in a situation similar to Canada where they allow for euthanasia and it is killing the poor, hence only the poor will be selling organs.
You should be able to pick up a pack of suicide pills at the 7-11. Freedumb!!
They're already there, they're called "Tylenol" Lethal dose for an Adult is generally 10gm or 200mg/kg body weight (Your hepatotoxicity may vary). You could even get the liquid version if swallowing tablets gives you an Owie.
Or you could just drink a glass of https://www.walmart.com/ip/Duda-s-Red-Hot-Devil-Lye-Sodium-Hydroxide-2lb/344054904
Frank
You can. They are just very slow acting suicide pills.
You are aware there is this invention called "Cars" which emit Carbon Monoxide, sort of the poor man's Cyanide, also an invention called "Rope", and last of all, an invention called guns, and if you're not mechanically inclined, an invention called "Gravity" works every time.
Frank "Chooses Life"
"If you believe (as I do) that it nonetheless applies here, you should be even more willing to apply it in many other cases. And some of those other applications are enormously significant."
I've made this point, over and over: The claims of bodily/medical autonomy and choice being asserted in abortion cases would, if generally accepted, be revolutionary in their implications. All sorts of laws would be starkly unconstitutional under that principle. It's abortion itself where the application would be most questionable!
And yet, when does this principle ever get extended beyond abortion, and perhaps occasionally birth control? Does it apply to restrictions on steroids, and other drugs, that people might rationally want to take for health reasons, but the government restricts? Nope.
It's just an excuse for abortion, nothing more. They never talk about this autonomy in any other context, and they would if it was anything more.
The last two years, to me, killed the concept of "My Body, My Choice". Somin also does not seem to mind the government forcing vaccines (of dubious utility) on people.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZPQ4hlLFCl/
As long as he's part of the crew doin' the decidin'.
Starting to hear "My body, my choice" a lot lately.
I guess the pandemic's over.
Actually, St. Fauci declared it over back in April; I guess it had been polling badly at that point.
Biden has admitted twice in the last two weeks that he intends to inflict another supposed pandemic on us. So stay armed -- the people who wanted to force the death shot on all of us will try again!
I see no mention of who gets to make the decisions to override body autonomy, or how they will be held accountable for going too far. I know the answer: the same CDC and NIH elites who screwed things up so badly this time, and they won't be held accountable. It's faintly ironic that they get absolute immunity for lying about immunity.
Far as I'm concerned, until these elites are held responsible for their lies, there is no rationale good enough to allow overriding absolute self-ownership.
Thank you for this. The right to bodily autonomy is the correct discussion to be having, whichever end of the policy spectrum one inhabits.
"it comes down to the reality that there is a plausible case that abortion involves the taking of innocent life"
Far beyond a "plausible case," it is indisputable scientific fact that abortion involves the taking of a life, and not just any life but that of a distinct human life.
The concept of "innocent" is more philosophical. However one might argue that the proposition is just as airtight.
Uhhh, the fact that it is being disputed puts paid to your assertion that it is indisputable.
And "science" has nothing to say about when a single cell has divided enough to qualify legally as "life". A cooling corpse still has living cells, but no one calls it "alive".
So the earth is not indisputably not flat? Just because someone disputes something doesn't mean they have a valid argument worthdisecting.
There's a difference between "indisputable" and "not a valid argument". Also, your addition of "worth dissecting" shows you have the same bias, and treat it as indisputable. It is not.
Right, so your one of those critical theorists who wastes people's time with 2+2=5 if you lie and obfuscate enough, thinking you have a valid point. Sorry, trolls and ignoramuses can dispute any fact but that doesn't make them worth addressing.
Self-serving denials aren't quite the same as a dispute in my mind.
Self-serving how?
Between the bans on vaping, and large soda, and straws and for mandatory vax etc etc I'm not sure where the idea that leftoids were the party of bodily autonomy came from. I mean at least you generally have some degree of control over if you get pregnant vs by merely existing you have to inject yourself with a foreign substance.
Whether or not it’s a good principle, it simply doesn’t appear anywhere in the US Constitution.
My $0.02 on abortion
1. Life begins at conception. There is no other viable objective and/or scientific answer to when life begins.
2. Fetal personhood (is it a person with rights in the eyes of the law) is a purely legal question to which 1 is irrelevant.
3. Abortion should mostly be legal at least in the early stages of pregnancy. I would hope that women making that choice recognize the nature of the choice that they are making, but it is still their choice.
4. The 15 week (around 3 weeks shy of the halfway point for full term) line that Mississippi drew should be acceptable.
There are plenty of alternatives to #1.
Not scientifically serious ones.
Though it should be noted that the pro-choice docs have tried to change the meaning of the word "conception" to mean implantation, rather than zygote formation. This has caused total chaos for biologists studying non-mammalian Amniotes, since it emerges, as a result of the redefinition, that there are no live birds, lizards or frogs to study.
Gosh. Who'd have thought there might be different definitions of conception with different phyla or species? Don't scientists understand how difficult that is for posturing politicians?
On the other hand, between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs naturally don't implant. It's kind of useful to define conception by distinguish between an implanted egg from others that have only the briefest existence. (are all those eggs little Billy, Sally and Spiff too?)
Besides, the definition keeps God from being the world's most prolific abortionist by far, and there's got to be value in that....
I believe the Catholic Church says it's ok to kill the millions of potential Billies and Sallies only in the service of procreation; spilling your semen for fun is still immoral, whether by yourself or with your favorite female.
Yes, true enough. But this definition of "a new human life = fertilization" (with, presumably, an attached soul to each such egg) means that God is the biggest mass-murderer in history, the biggest mass-murderer each and every year . . . and I don't think religious people will be willing to adopt that moral/philosophical/religious view. Who would ever want to follow such a vindictive, brutal, and evil God? (Answer: Not a single religious person that I know, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Satanist, Pastafarian, etc., etc.)
You have spotted that everyone dies, right ? And very few are murdered by other humans.
And yet you think it will come as a surprise to folk that God (or Mother Nature) polishes off lots of humans ?
Yeah, but it's still note-worthy that as abortionist (per the anti-choice definition), God is numero uno by far. No one else comes close to performing as many abortions (per the anti-choice definition) as the Big Guy. For every one soul who advances to the first seconds of pregnancy, God aborts three times that number (per the anti-choice definition).
All of which raises important theological questions. Do all fertilized eggs that don't implant get their place in Heaven at Jesus' side? Aside from their diminutive size (and we're talking a very, very, very small halo & set of wings), does someone give each one a name?
Of course these troublesome issues are easily avoided if you use the common-sense definition of implantation as the start of life. But the anti-choice crowd objects to that as limiting the store of "victims" they require for pious posturing. In fact, their lust for faux-victims is so extreme they refuse to accept scientific studies that prove certain types of contraceptives don't work by impeding implantation at all.
Just consider that. You'd think they'd be happy the data shows some kinds of birth control don't "murder" by their own definition. You'd assume they'd be pleased. Instead they were enraged at being cheated of victim numbers. That's the anti-abortion movement for you.
Yeah, but it's still note-worthy that as abortionist (per the anti-choice definition), God is numero uno by far.
No, it's not even slightly noteworthy. Obviously being completely ignorant of Christian theology, you are at risk of latching on to the wrong end of the stick and chewing it to the amusement of onlookers. There's nothing in the Bible that offers humans earthly immortality. Life is, according to believers, a gift from God which may be withdrawn at any stage. See Job :
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the LORD.”
In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrongdoing.
That humans can die naturally at any stage of their life is no more than that they are mortal. Humans sin when they murder other humans. Indeed, the prohibition of suicide illustrates the point clearly - "self-murder" is a sin, just as any other kind of murder is a sin, because it takes from God,
God is not a humanist, bleating "My body, my choice." According to traditional Christian teaching your body does not belong to you, it belongs to God. He can take it when he wants.
But you do not have to be a believer to spot that squeaking "wah ! wah ! Look ! God kills lots of humans very early in their life !" is not a big lead story when everyone knows that all humans die.
grb - Who would ever want to follow such a vindictive, brutal, and evil God?
"you're ignorant of Christian Theology" ::brings up the Book of Job::
If grb wishes to debate Christian theology that's his/her business - though he/she would be wiser if he/she attempted to do so from a position of at least minimal knowledge of that theology. Christians do not believe that the fact of human mortality is an indication of God's vindictiveness and brutality. They take it as an indication that the life everlasting is not available in this world.
Meanwhile, if we depart from Christian theology, and move to ordinary rational debate, grb's argument that it must come as a terrible shock to people that already know that all humans die, that many humans die young, is an argument that I feel needs some more polishing.
Lee Moore : "....that many humans die young..."
The sheer unreality of anti-choice posturing in full flower.... "Very early in their life" is such a sonorous, stately and pious way to describe an un-implanted fertilized egg (one millionth of a meter in diameter) that has the briefest of existence before being naturally flushed out a women's body.
But "many humans die young", huh? By that standard, at least 40% of all the residents of Heaven were never born, never developed brains, never had thoughts, emotions, experiences, hopes, dreams, or desires.
Isn't it amazing how the pretend-pious twist their pretend-beliefs into knots, just to make sure women are kept in their place? Someone pointed out anti-abortion hysteria doesn't seem to extend to IVF clinics, despite all those eggs being little Bobby, Ray, and Susie. Of course not. Because those clinics don't involve some slut trying to get away with having non-reproductive sex, ergo no babies are involved.
I don't doubt they'll target the clinics eventually; consistency will require they twist yet another knot in their "beliefs". Fertilization clinics are murder and God is an abortionist who kills three "humans very early in their life" for every one who lives. The anti-abortion crowd is capable of believing ANYTHING that serves their sick end.
The sheer unreality of anti-choice posturing in full flower.... "Very early in their life" is such a sonorous, stately and pious way to describe an un-implanted fertilized egg (one millionth of a meter in diameter) that has the briefest of existence before being naturally flushed out a women's body.
You are the one fleeing from reality. That many humans die early in their life is a simple statement of scientific fact. Nothing sonorous, stately or pious about it.
The creatures concerned are human and alive. Biology 101.
Trying to switch the debate to spittling about Christian theology doesn't change the scientific facts. You are simply handwaving furiously about God and the godly, to avoid acknowledging the simple facts that the formation a zygote is a new, live human organism; and that implantation is a phase of its life cycle that happens after its been alive for a week. Birth is a phase of its life cycle that happens after its been alive for nine months, and reproductive maturity after about fifteen years.
You're welcome to argue that the early stages of a human life are morally valueless, but embrace the healing power of reality and argue from a solid scientific base. There are some live humans that you think it's OK to kill.
Who'd have thought there might be different definitions of conception with different phyla
er, birds, lizards, frogs and humans all belong to the same phylum.
...or species?
Why would humans need a different definition of conception from other species of animals, when the same thing gets them all started - the fusion of two opposite sex gametes ?
In fact we know the answer - it was simply a political redefinition :
In 1959, Dr. Bent Boving suggested that the word "conception" should be associated with the process of implantation instead of fertilization.[21] Some thought was given to possible societal consequences, as evidenced by Boving's statement that "the social advantage of being considered to prevent conception rather than to destroy an established pregnancy could depend on something so simple as a prudent habit of speech." In 1965, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) adopted Boving’s definition: "conception is the implantation of a fertilized ovum."
ie it was simply a ploy to enable pro-abortion docs to label the prevention of the implantation of an already living blastocyst as "contraception" rather than "abortion."
Moreover, in ordinary English, "conception" means formation or beginning. You conceive of an idea when the idea occurs to you, not when you write it down.
In any event that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Even if you choose to mangle the meaning of conception, in a special humans-only sense, for political reasons, the scientific facts are that, by the time of implantation, the new human has already been alive, and developing, for about a week.
It's kind of useful to define conception by distinguish between an implanted egg from others that have only the briefest existence.
It would be more useful to define words so that different words describe different things. Conception - the beginning of a new organism's life, is different from implantation - which is a mammal specific event which takes place well after conception.
(are all those eggs little Billy, Sally and Spiff too?)
They're not "eggs", they're fertilised eggs, or blastocysts. Completely different things. An egg is a haploid cell derived from the mother. A fertilised egg is a diploid cell formed by the fusion of an egg, and a sperm fro the father. You have to try really hard to pretend that the fusion of the two gametes is not a biggie.
s/scientifically/religiously
Biology is a field absolutely ruled by religion?
I don't believe that #1 is the only viable objective and/or scientific answer. Jewish tradition teaches that a life only exists when the child is fully expelled from the mother's womb. That is just as much of a bright light standard as yours.
I get that some really like bright line rules, but I think this is one issue where Justice Breyer's amorphous balancing tests might be the best answer in terms of balancing the insterests of the state, the woman, and the fetus. I think that the viability standpoint should be abandoned because it is too subject to scientific advances. That being said, before that point you have potential human life not actual human life. I think Chief Justice Roberts was on to something that setting a point after a woman would realistically know that she is pregnant and be able to carefully explore her options (so she doesn't make a rash decision), but not too far that you are failing to take into account the interests of others involved, is probably the best balance you are going to get.
Jewish tradition teaches that a life only exists when the child is fully expelled from the mother's womb.
Talk me through the Jewish science on that one.
I think that the viability standpoint should be abandoned because it is too subject to scientific advances.
Why would scientific advances be a reason to reject that standard ? The standard is based on the idea that you shoudn't be allowed to kill it, if it could survive outside. If it can survive outside at, say, 5 months, why would you be allowed to kill it in preference to just pushing it out ? And if science advanced till it could survive being pushed out at 4 months, why would it be a good idea to be allowed to kill it instead at that point ?
Yeah, it's not like we have some incredible excess of children being born in the US, and need to make sure we don't accidentally have extra ones being born. The US fertility rate is currently at 1.78, (Bare replacement is 2.) and we're one of the more fertile developed countries.
It's been estimated there's about 1 abortion per 3 live births, so if it weren't for abortion being legalized, our national fertility rate would be somewhere around 2.3, or if you assume people would be more careful about birth control if they couldn't abort, somewhere between those numbers.
In short, if it weren't for abortion, we'd have stable population numbers without any need for massive immigration. What a horrifying disaster!
Government womb control by America's Taliban is justified because it keeps those brown-skin foreigners out? I should have guessed!
Replacement level fertility rate is actually 2.1. But that's just me being pedantic.
Technically, that depends on mortality before reaching reproductive age, but close enough.
If it weren't for abortion, we'd have a shit-ton more UNWANTED children.
People like you don't give a shit about that fact. You don't care what happens after birth to anyone involved. All you care about is demonstrating that your pearl necklace is properly being clutched.
The actual bodily autonomy of fully-grown women never factors in to your perspective, being superseded by your fake concern over the "rights" of a cluster of cells which may or may not ever become a person.
Jewish tradition teaches that a life only exists when the child is fully expelled from the mother's womb.
Jewish law has it as the greater part of the head - but there's not much of a time difference, in general!
"I don't believe that #1 is the only viable objective and/or scientific answer. Jewish tradition teaches that a life only exists when the child is fully expelled from the mother's womb. That is just as much of a bright light standard as yours."
1, it's bright line, not bright light.
2. Bright line does not necessarily mean objective.
3. Resorting to religion for an object/scientific answer is stupid squared.
It's also indisputable that almost all cultures count birth-days, not conception-days. I believe the old-time Japanese used to count how many New Year's Days had been lived through since birth, not since conception.
And they all used to have a pretty good concept of when conception took place, although the thought rape could not make a woman pregnant unless she enjoyed it, which was proof it wasn't rape, but adultery.
Actually, it is disputable by your own argument above.
It's a philosophical question, not a scientific one. If you think it's a scientific one it's only because you took all the philosophical questions for granted. There are a few obvious points where you can start calling something an independent lifeform, conception, quickening, viability, and birth. If you think science tells you which one is objectively correct, you have no real understanding of what science is, and believe your subjective philosophical biases are universal.
Many old cultures didn't count a born child as a child, say for baptizing, until a few days or a month had passed. Many modern countries fudge their infant mortality rate by doing the same thing.
Sure, everythig's philosophcal in that sense. However science can be deployed to test the logical robustness of the philosophical argument.
So, for example, if as a matter of science, human reproduction works in exactly the same way as sheep reproduction, we would want a good explanation as to why the fusion of a sheep ovum and sperm to form a sheep zygote would be called "conception" and the implantation of the sheep blastocyst a few days later would be called "implantation", while with humans we would be invited to call the "implantation" event, both "implantation" and "conception."
Doesn't mean you can't come up with a philosophical argument as to why it makes sense to refer to similar events in different species in these different ways, but you would have to work at it a bit harder than has been attempted so far.
Uh huh. Who says "look, there's four new sheep", to note the one fertilized sheep egg that implants and the three who don't? No one. A new sheep is the fertilized egg that starts a pregnancy, full stop. Somehow we don't find people chasing un-implanted fertilized eggs thru a ewe's innards, trying to dress each one in swaddling clothes. Somehow absurdist posturing makes so much less sense on ovine grounds.
Here's a real "philosophical argument" for you: How many un-implanted fertilized sheep eggs can dance on the head of a pin? Turn your ingenuity to that and work it out, micron by micron. I got faith in you; you're the man for the job....
"There are a few obvious points where you can start calling something an independent lifeform, conception, quickening, viability, and birth."
No, only one of those is obvious from a biological perspective. At which point do you have a genetically distinct organism? There is only one answer.
Keep that petard handy for the first time one of our AIs inhabits a solar-powered robot and spawns a bit of related evolutionary code into a gizmo it assembled.
And "genetically distinct" is going to mean a lot more than you currently intend it to once that AI is running on an RNA-driven biocomputer.
Batshit crazy and paranoid.
Well, no, strong AI would cause all sorts of problems with the concept of "alive". All sorts of sci-fi tech would - Star Trek transporters, for example.
And when those things are real, I'll begin considering arguments about them seriously.
That's fine. I'm just suggesting that one who takes a firm stand that a particular definition of life is the "only one...obvious from a biological perspective" and then redefines it when it becomes inconvenient, is not thinking about the topic rigorously enough.
The responses to my comment have been interesting. I explicitly made the when life begins question irrelevant and the abortion maximalists still want to fight over the when life begins question and ignore everything else I said.
Pity, someone just missed the opportunity to accurately call something, Begging the Question.
I don't think you made the "when life begins question" irrelevant.
1. Life begins at conception. There is no other viable objective and/or scientific answer to when life begins.
2. Fetal personhood (is it a person with rights in the eyes of the law) is a purely legal question to which 1 is irrelevant.
Your statement, in 2, of the irrelevance of 1, only has force if your answer at 1 is accepted. If 1 is rejected, question 2 can be entirely avoided until there is admitted to be a live human in existence. Because nobody at all thinks that anything has personhood unless it is alive.
Thus for example if you tale mykesq's comment :
"Jewish tradition teaches that a life only exists when the child is fully expelled from the mother's womb. "
as doctrinally correct, you never have to face question 2 at all. There is no life till birth, thus there can never be a question of fetal personhood.
So your 1 is a necessary qualifying step before you can tackle question 2. (I don't mean your answer to 1, ie someone who answers that life begins at implantation, or when a heartbeat is detectable or whatever does have to face question 2, but later.)
the abortion maximalists still want to fight over the when life begins question
The reason is straightforward and follows directly from my previous comment. Until the creature is admitted to be alive you do not have to offer anything on why it's OK to kill it.
A right to "bodily autonomy" is not rooted in the Nation’s history and tradition.
License is not liberty.
Yep. It's all about showing those harlots and Jezebels that they won't get away with it. That's all it's ever been about. You get a group of anti-choice types in full rant and you never have to wait long. One will soon slip-up and go off-script like Bob above.
Ninth Amendment though. Constitution is a document of limited powers, not limited rights. The problem is trying to argue unenumerated rights and THEN trying to enumerate those rights, to allow for "government out of my uterus" even when there is a fetus there, but not "government out of my kidney," or "government out of my lungs" or "government out of my liver," as the author would suggest.
Primarily, that's because I think fetuses (except perhaps in the very late stages of pregnancy) do not have a right to life comparable to that of infants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The same people who argue for abortion often argue/are highly sympathetic against the exploitation and killing of animals up to even very simple ones with rudimentary nervous systems. By that metric all but the earliest abortions should be restricted.
Uh.... we all swat flies don't we? That's a far more advanced lifeform than a 15-week embryo/fetus.
Well flies have 100K neurons total while at 14 weeks a babies neurons are proliferating at the rate of 15 million per hour so no, the bluecheck tweets where you gained all your scientific education from are wrong and they aren't more advanced let alone 'far more advanced' by any meaningful scientific standard.
I really don't think you want neuron count to be the measure of advancement. Humans aren't the most.
Then go ahead and tell us how you would measure how "advanced" a life form is.
Why? That has no role in the discussion as I see it. I was responding to AmosArch.
I used the word "advanced" to succinctly describe that flies --- which even most people "sympathetic against the exploitation and killing of animals up to even very simple ones with rudimentary nervous systems" are prepared to swat --- are not merely "very simple" organisms "with rudimentary nervous systems." So the argument AmosArch made did not support his conclusion that "all but the earliest abortions should be restricted."
I don't take issue with a single one of the 9 points. In a truly "free" country none of them would even be an issue up for debate.
Good luck getting people to care...Modern politics is all about a dozen or so wedge issues that effect 0.01% of the population 0.01% of the time and people exhaust themselves fighting all the time over them while completely ignoring everything else.
I know that, but I can still dream. I've always said there is no such thing as a "Moderate Activist" and that the squeakiest wheels get the most grease. It's like right now, regardless of how you feel on the issue based upon the amount of attention you'd swear every other person you see in a dress started out life as a guy.
In a truly "free" country there wouldn't be much society left at all. It looks like anarchy.
That's not necessarily a bad, chaotic or evil thing. A society where there is no coercion could actually be a rather pleasant place, albeit one very loosely organized.
I guess if 4chan is your thing and you want that to be all of society in all respects all the time. Or were you assuming humans naturally cooperate for innovation and advancement in the absence of enforceable rules? Tragedy of the commons, here we come.
Amen. The problem is that most people won't go for it. Everyone is a libertarian - but almost everyone is a libertarian only when it comes to what he wants to do.
The discussion comparing abortion to the drowning baby scenario is badly flawed. Ilya recognizes one minor distinction (how the baby got there) while ignoring the major distinction, which is that abortion is an intentional overt action taken for the purpose of ending the baby's life.
So with abortion, you reach into the pond and dismember the drowning baby. Not just walk on by.
"which is that abortion is an intentional overt action taken for the purpose of ending the baby's life."
Indeed, post-viability abortion actually involves active measures to assure that they don't accidentally deliver a live infant.
And at the same time, they also use active measures to preserve the most high-priced body parts intact (like the brain, heart etc) so that they can profit from the proceeds.
And you'd be ok with that if there were no profit involved? Seems like you missed that part of TFA.
So we're back on late-term abortions, huh? Reminder : According to the CDC, 91 percent of all abortions are performed in the first trimester and 98.7 percent of abortions are performed during the first 20 weeks. Using state data, it’s possible to roughly estimate the percentage of abortions performed in weeks 21-30. Above that, no records are kept, but the numbers are so tiny that they register as 0.00 percent.
It's amazing how dependent the Right is on a tiny number of procedures driven almost exclusively by medical emergency. It's almost like they don't take their own "principles" seriously and therefore need extreme examples to make the rhetoric work, no matter how dishonest.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/raw-data-abortions-by-week-of-pregnancy/
"It's amazing how dependent the Right is on a tiny number of procedures "
Now let's do libs and rape, incest and entopic pregnancies.
By all means, let's do. I'm always interested to hear how America's Taliban deals with this issue. Even today, there are womb-controlists who aren't such mortal monsters they'd force a women to carry her rapist's child, or a girl to bear the baby of the man who molested her. But what does that leave? A zygote is a cherubic proto-baby - but only with a slut who had sex for pleasure (and damn sure can't be allowed to get away with it)?
And isn't that the anti-abortion movement in a nutshell? Hell, even a majority of the anti-choice crowd used to support rape-incest exceptions - until they decided consistency required a choice between being a moral monsters & punishing hussies. Needless to say, that was no choice for them. Someday they'll decide they have to shut down IVF clinics for the same reason, but for now no-harlot equals no-baby still holds true.
As for rape & pregnancies, the most widely cited study of this question was published in 1996 by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. It determined a national rape-related pregnancy rate of 5.0 percent per rape among victims between the ages of 12 and 45. Other studies suggest the chance of getting pregnant from a single act of unprotected sex is 3.1 percent.
Note : Both numbers are higher that with the Right's favorite sham obsession of late-term abortions. Note also : There are real people involved in both cases - women facing horrible choices late in pregnancies & women facing the terror of pregnancy after rape. After all, they can't all be sluts, harlots and hussies, can they?
"As for rape & pregnancies, the most widely cited study of this question was published in 1996 by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. It determined a national rape-related pregnancy rate of 5.0 percent per rape among victims between the ages of 12 and 45. Other studies suggest the chance of getting pregnant from a single act of unprotected sex is 3.1 percent.
Note : Both numbers are higher that with the Right's favorite sham obsession of late-term abortions."
Aren't you comparing apples and oranges (or pineapples and avocados, or something) here? Your figure is the percentage of rapes that result in pregnancy, which you are comparing to the percentage of abortions that are late-term. Wouldn't the appropriate comparison be between the percentage of abortions that are due to rape and the percentage that are late-term?
"It's amazing how dependent the Right is on a tiny number of procedures driven almost exclusively by medical emergency."
I'll agree that the fraction is relatively small. But even the Guttmacher institute doesn't claim that all late term abortions are driven by medical emergencies. Heck, they don't even claim "most". THEY say they're driven by things like not wanting another child.
But, look at the few states where the pro-'choice' movement gets what it wants: Elective abortion right up to birth, and any procedures to make sure accidental live births don't get 'corrected' get removed.
All mass movements end up controlled by the extremists, they're the only ones who want to devote the time to it. That's as true of the pro-'choice' side as the pro-life.
Fine, Brett: So how 'bout an example? I can produce dozens of horror stories about women having late abortions because of terrible medical complications. Why don't you try your hand at providing examples of (a) abortions right at birth, (b) legally sanctioned, and (c) not caused by medical emergency.
Because that's what you say the pro-choice states want, right? No matter that their laws as written have zero resemblance to this ghoulish fantasy, that's the secret aim per Brett. So, examples should be a piece of cake.
The anti-abortion movement is based on two sturdy pillars:
(1) It is the easiest, most care-free piety available in the marketplace today. Usually righteousness requires hard choices, difficult decisions or painful ethical dilemmas. Not abortion! It pits wanton sluts against cherubic proto-babies. Nothing is simpler or more consumer-friendly. The average Philistine doesn't have to break a sweat...
(2) And it is all about those sluts, who can't be allowed to get away with it. They made their bed etc, etc, etc.
I gotta say this, Brett: Your obsession over those non-existent women gleefully aborting their non-existent babies right outside the delivery room (as evil doctors & pro-choice advocates applaud in rapturous ecstasy)? It's a pretty strong example of Item 2 above.....
I take your point, but you also have to deal with the scenario where the baby is already dead in the pond and you need to get it out before it contaminates the wellspring.
Sure but that's not an abortion. Neither is treatment of an ectopic pregnancy or other rare scenarios that may require different procedures which are all basically, early delivery. None of that is abortion.
Even Planned Parenthood agrees that the treatment of an ectopic pregnancy is not the same thing as an abortion. It's right there on there website: "Treating an ectopic pregnancy isn’t the same thing as getting an abortion." On this, they even agree with the Catholic Church. Seems like the only ones who disagree with that assessment are scare-mongering politicians on the left.
I agree with you. But you'll have to take that up with the politicians introducing bills with text that bans *whatever* one chooses to call removing an ectopic pregnancy.
That's not the only scenario, by the way. Babies die in utero in ways that seriously harm the mother but without miscarrying the "normal" way. Plenty of discussions about that on the web. Maybe that's not your definition of "abortion" but it is in Poland. And it appears to be on the table in state legislatures here.
" But you'll have to take that up with the politicians introducing bills with text that bans *whatever* one chooses to call removing an ectopic pregnancy."
Can you actually provide a cite to such a bill?
Here's an example:
https://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills221/hlrbillspdf/5798H.01I.pdf
There was apparently a later amendment removing certain express language regarding ectopic pregnancies, but the bill has no language exempting from its scope persons who use of abortion-inducing drugs or devices to address ectopic pregnancies. In other words, one can still be charged for that. See this link for a quote on that:
https://www.kcur.org/politics-elections-and-government/2022-04-06/missouri-house-passes-anti-abortion-bill-further-tightening-restrictions-on-providers
I really hope someone tells these dumbass state legislatures that.
How do you make a dead baby float? One pint of root beer, two scoops of dead baby.
I find it rather amazing that Somin finds a vaccine mandate acceptable even though though it is a gross violation of bodily autonomy, yet he thinks that lockdowns and other direct contagion controls are violations of bodily autonomy when on their face they are not. They are not so different from rules of the road.
All in all Somin reveals that "bodily autonomy" is an empty slogan to be filled with everyone's personal policy preferences.
Yup...
"if that's your view, you're not really a supporter of "my body, my choice.""
Well duh. Basically nobody is actually a supporter of that.
"My Body, My Choice" is a shallow political slogan, rather than any sort of useful "principle." It does provide something that people with low IQs love to banter and bicker about, or maybe even earnest write blog posts on.
You body, your choice makes perfect sense and that choice was made during the sex act. What we are dealing with are the consequences of your choice. Leave it to the lawyers to turn the simple into complicated. Some lawyers on this blog are more like philosophers.
Law and philosophy drink a lot of wine together.
So there is only one choice you're prepared to respect. The choice to have sex.
I propose a new law banning the Heimlich maneuver. Your choice was to order the meatballs. Dang you're right -- this is easy! Darn lawyers make this stuff so complicated.
No, it is not.
At most, the only vaccine mandates that can overcome a strong presumption in favor of bodily autonomy are mandates where they have customarily and traditionally existed.
As there is no custom or tradition for requiring vaccinations to patronize a bar or restaurant, nor to fly domestically within the U.S., nor a custom of forbidding private parties to employ those who refuse a vaccine, those types of vaccine mandates will not overcome the presumption for bodily autonomy.
This is where Ilya proves he doesn't mean a single word in the entire post, or in fact of his entire body autonomy ethos. He's perfectly fine with tossing it overboard if he can find a justification that just coincidentally gets him something he wants.
People adopt or reject principles out of convenience, and change them out of convenience, even at the same time and when they contradict themselves.
In other news, dogs chase cats, water is wet, and the sun often rises in the East.
In my view, the problem with this topic is that "my body, my choice" is a slogan, not a nuanced principle. The strong form of a Bodily Autonomy principle leads to bonkers places--it's essentially anarchic. Should the limiting principle be "unless it hurts others"? or "unless it infringes others' rights" or "unless it weakens society" or...?
The weaker form of a bodily autonomy principle allows for nuance and balance. Interestingly, that is precisely what the Roe court did the first time around. It characterized weak-form bodily autonomy as a species of privacy interest and then allowed that interest to be weighed against competing state interests. That's where the viability test came from, of course. The innovation in Roe was to elevate some notion of bodily autonomy to Constitutional status, which they called privacy. (Originalist screaming intensifies.)
But everyone not biased by religious motivation can see that bodily autonomy--the weak form that allows balancing--was already in the Constitution, whether express (e.g. 4th amendment) or implied (9th amendment) or elsewhere (equal protection?) Nobody thinks hypothetical government-forced vaccinations lack Constitutional dimension, right? But what clause protects us? The Dobbs majority may have uprooted Roe's due process privacy right from the Constitution root and stem, but the weak form of bodily autonomy necessarily persists.
"The innovation in Roe was to elevate some notion of bodily autonomy to Constitutional status, which they called privacy."
But it was special pleading, because they never extended that notion to anything else, even cases where it was much more easily justified.
Duh. "unless it hurts others" is "your body, your choice", and ditto for infringing others' rights.
As for weakening society, that is exactly the point -- it is none of society's business what you do, as long as you don't hurt others. It is none of society's business if you hurt yourself.
it is none of society's business what you do, as long as you don't hurt others
Does this make you a fan of animal cruelty laws ? Or not ?
Define "hurting." If I gather all the grass for my sheep and my neighbors' sheep all starve, am I hurting my neighbors?
If I sell heroin and your 12-year-old buys it, am I hurting her? Or you?
It's really not complicated. Yeah "unless it hurts others" involuntarily (i.e., you choose to smoke or to do S&M etc....). This is a very simple concept. If we don't have bodily autonomy, then we are not free.
In most, though not all, cases (rape is an obvious exception) the pregnant woman had a major role in putting the fetus in a position of jeopardy in the first place, by voluntarily choosing to have unprotected sex.
You can get pregnant (if you are the type of human who can get pregnant)) from "protected" sex too. Contraception is not 100% effective. Doesn't change the point of principle, but it does affect the odds.
That's true enough, but damn if it doesn't muck-up the works. To the average anti-choicer, females are divided into three types:
1. Righteous Christian-style womanhood, showing impeccable rectitude in all matters moral and hygienic.
2. Slovenly slatterns who spread their legs without conscious thought.
3. A tiny number of rape and incest victims.
Although there's a whole cottage industry of "science" to convince the faithful that pregnancy is impossible from Category-Three, the greater share of the movement has just come to accept the misery of the third group is a small price to pay to punish the second. But now you suggest the pattern-spread from their shotgun blast of piety will hit many of Category-One too?!?
Ultimately they'll stay the course. Those slatterns can't be permitted to get away with it. But any more complications and you might shock the anti-choicers into understanding these are real women leading normal lives who will have their existence ripped apart.
But now you suggest the pattern-spread from their shotgun blast of piety will hit many of Category-One too?!?
If I understand your Category-One correctly, they are only going to be "doing it" with their husbands, and if they use a contraceptive and nevertheless get pregnant, the result will be a gift from God.
Uh huh. Did you notice Alito barely mentioned women in his decision on their reproductive freedom? There was a short bit on how they could dump the child off on a doorstep & an aside about the family leave law and - poof! - all female concerns magically vanished. His fussing over embryos & zygotes got ten mentions to every woman's one.
All of which to point out the sheer unreality re women's existence in the hypocrisy known as the Anti-Choice Movement. I note that above; you respond as an Exhibit A example.
If you lack a go-to source to check, you can trust me on this: No matter how righteous and Christian-style a particular example of womanhood is, odds are she's using contraceptives for a damn good reason - the importance of which trumps your most treasured clichés.
At least personally to her, mind you. Legally her rights are nonexistent and her concerns worthless per Alito.
I'm not a doctor, but as a normal tolerably civilised passer-by, I really do think you should calm down a bit. You might infuriate yourself into a stroke.
Did you notice Alito barely mentioned women in his decision on their reproductive freedom?
My take was that his decision was focussed on what the federal Constitution says about a constitutional right to abortion. He concluded, I think rightly, that the answer is "nothing." Obviously this marks a major fault line between conservative and liberal jurisprudence - the former being interested in finding what is in the law, the latter being interested in finding what, in the opinion of liberals, ought to be there.
in the hypocrisy known as the Anti-Choice Movement. I note that above; you respond as an Exhibit A example.
In reality, I am a middle of the roader, like most Americans. I'm content with early abortion, not so with late abortion. But my role here is not to advance the pro-life cause or pro-choice cause, but to puncture illogic and inanity, in the arguments of VC commenters, where I happen to come across it. Which is why you find me replying to so many of your comments about abortion.
you can trust me on this
I hope you won't be offended if I take a rain check on that.
(1) Your "take" would have required no fussing by Alito over embryos & zygotes or facile throwaway lines about the women themselves. Nonetheless, there they were. Maybe your "take" is inadequate.
(2) A middle of the roader, huh? Isn't it strange how this "middle of the roader" talks about "killing" while discussing an un-implanted fertilized egg above? Somehow your assurances don't sync to your rhetoric, Lee. You should work on that.
I'm reality based. Going out of your way to prevent a blastocyst implanting is a deliberate attempt to kill it - just as much as is fending off a drowning man from clambering into your boat.
You're perfectly welcome to say that the first attempt to kill a live human is morally justifiable, while the second is not, on the grounds perhaps that the first live human is very small, doesn't feel pain, is not conscious etc. But if you're unwilling to acknowledge that fending off the blastocyst from your endometrium is an attempt to kill a live human, as a matter of fact, that indicates that you are emotionally uncomfortable with that fact, and that you therefore need to work harder at developing your own moral explanation as to why killing that type of human is OK.
Morality lies outside the realm of fact - but it is nevertheless constrained by the facts. Start with the facts, and go on from there. If you dscard them ab initio, your moral conclusions are worthless, ab initio.
Lee Moore : But if you're unwilling to acknowledge that fending off the blastocyst from your endometrium is an attempt to kill a live human that indicates that you are emotionally uncomfortable with that fact.
A naturally occurring un-implanted fertilized egg that is naturally flushed from a woman's body is a "killed" human being because I, Lee Moore, want to serve the petty malice of the Anti-Choice Movement, even though I, Lee Moore, make a phony pretense otherwise.
You are completely full of shit. You want to know what I'm "emotionally uncomfortable with"? I'm uncomfortable with the fraud of the anti-abortion moment, who has snowed everybody into believing they have deep moral convictions when their piety is an inch-deep skim over an ocean of hypocrisy. So go ahead and continue your absurdist calculations of angels dancing on the head of a pin, while preening in the mirror over your imaginary rectitude, while pretending your "beliefs" are completely different from what they transparently are. Hell, someone out there is bound to fall for your bullshit even if I don't....
me : "Going out of your way to prevent a blastocyst implanting is a deliberate attempt to kill it - just as much as is fending off a drowning man from clambering into your boat."
grb : "A naturally occurring un-implanted fertilized egg that is naturally flushed from a woman's body is a "killed" human being because..." ....wah wah wah
Again your emotional discomfort is embarrassingly obvious because you have to move the pea from cup to cup in plain view.
"Going out of your way to prevent a blastocyst implanting" is not a case of "a naturally occuring un-implanted fertilized egg [being] naturally flushed from a woman's body"
The flushing is not "natural" flushing, it's intentional flushing. If you wish to use the prevention of implantation as a mechanism of birth control, you have to take actual, deliberate, steps to prevent the crittur from implanting, so that it can then be flushed. The fact that the flushing is intentional makes the death of the blastocyst unnatural , ie a deliberate killing, rather than a natural death.
If a spider is blown by the wind into a pond, and drowns there, it has suffered a natural death. If a spider crawls into my bath tub, and I drown it by running water into the bath, I have killed it.
I confess that i have killed spiders in this way, and I don't feel the least bit guilty about it. When when i kill 'em, I'm willing to fess up that I've killed 'em. I don't need to prevaricate and posture and pretend that such spiders died a natural death.
And there is, no doubt, a connection between my being completely at ease with my crime, and my willingness to confess it.
You, not so much.
The hypocrisy is with the movement that calls itself "pro-choice" but is really just pro-abortion. If you're not for every single one of his examples - none of which harm anyone else - then you're not really pro-choice. Just pro- your choice.
Your #1 made me chuckle. In my head I heard:
I am the very model of the modern Christian womanhood /
with rectitude impeccable in matters all hygenic could /
avoid a pregnant episode through climax on protected wood /
and righteously toboggan through a nonconsensual victimhood.
A child in the womb is not "your body." It is a morally autonomous human being. There is no principled distinction between a day-old baby and a 8-month-old fetus.
Day-olds are easier to fit into a Gallon Pickle jar, and the 8 months put up quite a fight, almost like they're trying to live or something.
OK, before you call the local Po-Po, I haven't put any Babies in Pickle Jars (Medical Museum at Univ of Louisville used to have a few), in fact I'm against putting anything in Pickle Jars, except Pickles.
How about that (former) Senator from Moe-zurie, Claire Mc-Ass-Kill talking about "Zygots" yes, she pronounced it "Zy-Got" not "Zy-Goat", and she's one of the "Betters" Reverend Jerry keeps blathering about.
Frank
Your arguments are worthy and reasonable, professor.
That you diminish them by association with this right-wing, faux libertarian (I will omit some of the other, repulsive attributes) clown show seems inexplicable.
wear out the "Bitter Klinger" keys on your Tandy at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx#.WXoifYjyuM8
Frank
The autonomy I like to consider in this context is DUI. If I have bodily autonomy, I can choose to drive drunk. The immediate response is that I put other people's lives at risk. While in the aggregate, drunk drivers kill thousand of people per year, any one mile, or even 20 miles (how far away is your favorite bar?), driven drunk is very unlikely to cause harm. However, each abortion necessarily ends a life, so the life-cost of DUI is much lower. This is borne out by the comparison of annual abortion rates with annual drunk driving deaths from decades ago when DUI was more or less overlooked. Consider this to be less an argument in favor of DUI than it is a further example of why "bodily autonomy" is not the trump card some think it to be.
"Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" is a golden oldie; a more precise wording is "ends when I have to act to avoid imminently unavoidable harm". As much as I despise DUI laws for not taking into account people's varying tolerance for alcohol, that is what they do -- act to avoid an imminently unavoidable threat.
Other wrong aspects of DUI enforcement is busting a driver who has realized he is too drunk and pulls off to the side of the road to sleep it off. I knew someone who had parked his motorcycle off the road and was sleeping it off next to it; still got busted for DUI.
If you use the "ends at my nose" theory and apply it strictly, then problem solved. No abortion and no DUI.
RE: "This makes the situation very different from one where the drowning baby was in peril for reasons having nothing to do with the person who might be able to save it. If you threw the baby in the water, or he ended up there through your negligence, you do indeed have a legal or moral duty to save him."
That's because by throwing the baby into the water, you harmed it, worsened its lot in life, and took something (its safety) from it. That's why you must minimize the harm, make its lot in life better again, and restore its safety to it. IN CONTRAST, by conceiving a fetus, the woman doesn't harm it (while she is conceiving it, there is nothing yet to harm) and doesn't worsen its lot in life (before it is conceived, it doesn't have a lot in life) and doesn't take anything from it (before being conceived, it had nothing to take, not even a self). So no restitution, no further sharing the inside of your body with it should be required.
If a womb-owner conceives and gives her fetus ten weeks of sustenance and shelter inside her body, but nine months, then it (and its advocates) ought to be grateful for the ten weeks, not trying to use them as leverage for demanding more. Right-to-lifers are like someone who says: "You gave me a car, causing me to need gas, so now, you must pay for my gas!"
In some instances if you let someone sleep on your couch for a few weeks you can't just kick them out. You have to go through an eviction process even if the person was homeless and just should have been grateful for a place to sleep for a few weeks. Doesn't a fetus deserve the same consideration?
In Texas, which is not a tenant friendly state. You have to go through eviction procedures if you let them stay for even a single night.
You cannot kick a guest out of your house easily, because your house is only your house, not part of your body. If you poke your house with a fork, you won't jump with pain. We allow the government to take external property from you for many different reasons. But the part of the universe enclosed by the barrier defined by your skin is yours and yours alone.
The vaccine mandate is still not right. The PRIMARY purpose / benefit AND risk is to the individual. The 'herd immunity' is a side effect. It might make it good public policy to encourage, but it is still an infringement on liberty.
I am quite a bit more surprised that jury DUTY is considered an issue with my body, my choice. You choose to be a citizen, but don't want the duties? That seems ... odd. You can't choose to pick up only one end of a stick. Take the citizenship oath, accept the duties.
And all the native borns, what oath is that?
SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not just about developing "herd immunity" (in fact vaccinations do the opposite in some sense), they are also about minimizing the chances of infecting individuals around an anti-vaxxer because the vaccine makes them more likely to be spreading the virus at any moment in time. Some of those individuals at risk, such as EMT or police, have no realistic options other than quitting their job to avoid being in contact with voluntarily unvaccinated individuals. If too many EMT or police exercise the "quitting" option or end up dying or having extended COVID, that likely has a negative impact on all of society.
There is also the issue of limited health resources (doctors, nurses, beds, drugs, O₂, ventilators, etc.) Even very careful vaccinated people have some non-trivial chance of getting COVID so every resource that is consumed unnecessarily by an unvaccinated COVID patient may deprive the vaccinated, but infected, individual of care they could/should have had. Although perhaps this problem could be dealt with via legislation allowing medical providers to first provide resources to COVID patients who have been vaccinated or were not medically eligible for vaccination before any voluntarily unvaccinated COVID patient receives those resources. And "resources" includes not depleting stockpiles too much or pushing medical professionals into endless hours of overtime if that's what it takes to treat the COVIdiots.
If everyone could take the vaccine and it would be 100% effective in everyone who took it my view would be somewhat different. In that case I'd be fine with NO vaccine mandates as long as insurance companies were free to deny paying for COVID related treatments for the unvaccinated and that governments were banned from paying for any such treatments for the unvaccinated (this includes conditions reasonably likely to be related to "long COVID"). Of course I wouldn't ban insurance companies from offering COVIdiot riders which would cover such care and denying policies or dropping them to anyone who was voluntarily unvaccinated.
Speaking of inconsistency, what are we to make of Prof. Somin's own frequent defense of vaccine mandates? One might defend it on the grounds of a duty to protect other people, but in this very post, he suggests no such duty exists (the "drowning baby" example).
And some of these alleged "inconsistencies", oft repeated by libertarians, are facile and easily distinguished. Even a child can recognize the difference between the government REQUIRING an act and the government FORBIDDING an act. The government telling you that you CAN'T inject heroin is not the same as the government telling you that you MUST inject a vaccine. The latter violates your "bodily autonomy"; the former does not.
I always felt like I had an ace in the hole when I represented a defendant in a criminal trial before jurors shanghaied in the courthouse after the jury pool had been depleted. You could be in the courthouse on personal business and a deputy would come up and put you under arrest and haul you to the courtroom to serve. The deputies would even go out on the street and do a reverse habeas corpus. You could always tell by the body language (especially the scowl on the unfortunate guy's face) that the juror had been brought in against his will. (PP) The upshot of this vexing procedure was that the shanghaied jurors would be so pissed off they'd almost invariably vote against the state. I've also enjoyed watching the DA and his ADAs jump up and down and squall whenever the judge announced they were going to have to go out and grab up some folks to serve. As the Great Bard wrote with a grin, "There may be among the sworn twelve passing on the life of the accused a thief or two bigger than him they try." LOL. Ain't life just plain grandiose with perplexities?
It's not like progressives/leftists oppose the war on drugs and favor legal prostitution. I expect (and believe it to be supported by polling and other evidence) that there is more support for broadly legal drugs and prostitution on the right.
I largely agree with this. The places I depart is that I think viability or close to viability is where the state’s interest as parens patriae for the potential life becomes sufficient for the state to interfere with bodily autonomy, absent a abnormal and substantial threat to the physical safety of the woman.
I depart on vaccines too. There could be diseases where lethality was significantly substantial enough that it would overcome a persons right to bodily autonomy. But you would have to show that voluntary vaccination is insufficient to protect those who desired to be protected. I don’t think we ever got close to that with coronavirus as the disease was quite virulent but did not pose a great risk to any given person, and said person could mitigate their risk by getting vaccinated themselves. If anything, makes mandates are less of an infringement on personal autonomy than vaccines, as the state is not requiring you to put a foreign object in your body.
That's a fine opinion, but there is wide diversity on that question. Therefore, it should be decided by democratic vote, not by courts.
IMO that is the one-and-only question worth debating on the abortion topic. If the fetus is a person, killing it is homicide. If the fetus is not a person, then it has no more legal significance than snot from a nose. Reasonable people come down on both sides of that question.
What about cats ? EV had a piece recently about a guy who shot a cat, and the punishment visited on him. A cat is not a person, so should we eschew all animal cruelty laws ?
"A cat is not a person, so should we eschew all animal cruelty laws ?"
That is the wrong question to compare to the abortion debate.
Should the federal courts step in and provide a single national animal cruelty law when the US Congress has chosen not to (for whatever reason)?
That is the wrong question to compare to the abortion debate.
I beg to differ. I don't claim it's the only question relevant to the abortion debate, but it's highly relevant to Mr Tuttle's :
If the fetus is not a person, then it has no more legal significance than snot from a nose.
The law takes an interest in the treatment of non-persons. If you wish to argue that if the law shouldn't be interested in fetuses unless they're persons, you need an explanation for why the law should be interested in the treatment of cats.
Excellent round up of good points most of which I've been arguing for a very long time.
However I think mandates on military service or jury duty may rightfully override the "My Body, My Choice" argument just as vaccine mandates for those appearing in public places (but not privately owned/controlled venues which are free to set their own vaccination restrictions) may.
It is conceivable that without mandatory military service the entire country could, at some point, be taken over by another country and then everyone, even those who exercised their "My Body, My Choice" right to avoid military service, could be subject to many, many more constraints on their rights (such as in China today or, shudder, in North Korea). Although, utilization of such mandatory military service should be subject to at least intermediate scrutiny so no "everyone must do two years of domestic community service" and perhaps only a declared war with recent active combat should trigger mandatory military service.
Our criminal justice system is based on a trial by a jury of your peers -- not those who seek to impose their will on "criminals" or who are "appointed" by a politician (or even elected by the electorate) or those who "have the time" or "don't have a job". Mandatory jury service seems to be the only way to insure that the criminal justice system doesn't run off the rails. The risk of getting random jury members is a big consideration in prosecutors not pursuing weak cases and that's a very important guardrail in our system.
As far as abortion... It is a very difficult call. I'm an atheist so have no religious motivation for my views on it. However, even without religious motivation, I think allowing murder to go unpunished is not something a functioning society can endure. The question is, when is "murder, in fact, murder?".
If a healthy baby is delivered a bit early at 38 weeks, is it murder for the mother to decide in the next two weeks kill it (of course painlessly -- which is likely more than would happen in the process in the next sentence)? What if the fetus is 38 weeks from conception and aborted via an elective abortion (i.e., continuing the pregnancy would not present a substantial additional physical medical risk to the mother compared to aborting it) - is that murder? What, if any, is the difference?
To be honest, I don't even know where I would draw the line. To me an elective abortion of a just fertilized human egg is not close to murder. On the other hand an elective abortion of a healthy full term fetus during labor just minutes before expected delivery is alarmingly close to "murder". However, I would accept a democratically determined (state by state or, if Congress can twist their Article I, Section 8 powers far enough, a national) "age limit" on elective abortions.
However, this age limit comes with a couple caveats. First, no government money should be spent on "saving" the "non life" if it is prematurely born before that age limit and no private insurance company should be required to provide such coverage (after all, the fetus isn't a life, it's just "medical waste" at that point). Second, a mother should be free to legally have a baby born prematurely before that age limit painlessly euthanized (which is at least as human as an in utero abortion would be at that stage) for any or no reason up until the baby had reached that age limit -- if it wasn't a "life" in utero, it isn't ex utero either.
Note that one shouldn't necessarily see a fetus as a human being or having rights similar to a baby in order to recognize the right of the society acting through the government to provide some protections to the fetus.
Consider a woodpecker that damages my property and creates risks to my wife's mental health. Notwithstanding this real harm, the government does not allow me to kill the woodpecker or even damage its eggs in the nest. Do we accept that human fetus deserves less protection than a woodpecker's egg?
Of course, there is this principle, "my body - my choice", but to what degree the fetus is a body part? After viability, at least, it is a "separable" part, that can continue live on its own, which makes it very different from anything we truly consider art of the own body.
but to what degree the fetus is a body part?
As a matter of biology, not at all. All the cells of fetus, including most of the placenta, are formed by cell division, and differentiation, from the diploid zygote. The zygote is formed from the maternal haploid ovum, and the paternal haploid sperm, creating a new diploid single celled organism quite distinct from the mother's body. The fetus is no more a "part of the mother's body" than it is a "part of the father's body."
It's its own body, formed from two single celled haploid contributions from two separate organisms. Which cells are part of which body is easily determined by looking at the genes. The father's cells are genetically distinct from the mother's, and both are distinct from the child's (though there is a 50% correlation between the genes of each parent and the genes of the child.)
So the biological reality is that the child is not part of the mother's body at all, it is a separate creature, that is connected to the mother's body, via the placenta, most of which is fetal tissue but which is maternal tissue at the endometrium end.
So the "part of Mom's body" line is nonsense. The only place where you get into genuine questions as to whose body might be part of somebody else's body is where you have conjoined twins or mosaics - ie where two offspring have got themselves mixed up or entangled. Mom herself is never a party to such confusions.
I have come to an understanding about Ilya's posts on this site.
It's to give everyone reading an understanding of what is bat shit crazy.
No really, what he says is the dumbest thing you can say, and I can say that I am now just a small L libertarian... but I'm not sure I want to be that anymore (princess bride).
Human life is sacred, or not.
Pick your team.
All the rest is lies we tell ourselves to make it through the day
I wonder if liberals believe an accused murderer could use the victim having been created a the product of rape as an affirmative defense. People so situated are clearly lesser than the rest of us and less worthy of consideration, right?
Who says that about children born of rape?
>Thus, defensible vaccination mandates are a fairly unusual case where the combination of large potential benefits and the very modest nature of the restriction on liberty, combine to overcome even a strong presumption in favor of bodily autonomy.
If you believe in bodily autonomy "except when the presumption in favor is overcome", as the saying goes, you're just arguing about the price. Anyone can claim that any of the other restrictions on bodily autonomy that you don't like overcome that presumption. I'm pretty sure that the people who supported lockdowns thought that the imposition was minor enough and the effect of keeping disease away from third parties was big enough to justify the lockdown. Your principle amounts to nothing.
You did add a principle "... if the harm is to others, not to yourself", but that has problems. First of all, almost any imposition on bodily autonomy is accompanied by at least some claims that it affects others, including abortion itself. Second, the whole point of sdaying "my body, my choice" in the first place is to claim that it's absolute. If what you really believe is "my, body, my choice, unless it harms others", you're just *not being relevant*--you're saying something that's different from what everyone else is saying, and your "agreement" with it is just agreement with an idiosyncratic version that almost nobody even claims to hold, and has nothing to do with anyone else who says "my body, my choice" at all.
A few problems with the professor's argument.
1. Although legal obligations to save or help strangers may be limited, legal obligations toward one's children are very considerably more expansive. I must financially support my children. I must reasonably care for them. If I am negligent in my care and they die, I have committed a crime.
2. Although I might not have a duty to pull a baby out of a lake, I do have such a duty if I put that baby in the lake or allowed it to get there through negligent care.
3. Abortion is not simply a passive policy of not rendering help, it is an active policy of murder. If I see a person swimming in a lake, I might have no duty to help that person, but I cannot take my gun and shoot that person.
In the case of abortion,
* the mother has a biological tie to the child that implies a legal tie.
* the role of a parent implies vastly greater obligations than one has toward strangers.
* abortion is actively depriving a child of life, not merely passively declining to support it.
Very disappointing analysis by the professor.
Except murder involves another person. That doesn't happen with an abortion.
I agree with your analysis if we assume a fetus is a child. I see no reason to assume that and don't.
1. Organ markets should be legalized.
- Generally agree. Though a regulatory regime, I think, is needed to try and ensure that personal decision can be separated from exploitation/force.
2. Laws against prostitution should be abolished. - Generally agree. Though regulatory regime, I think is needed to try and ensure that personal decision can be separated from exploitation/force.
3. The War on Drugs should be abolished. --Generally agree. Though I do think the government continues to have a role in helping understand what safe an proper use is and ensuring that knowledge is part of the transaction is much as possible without prohibiting stupid decisions. As a consumer I have no ability on my own to determine impacts and efficacy and it isn't just a lack of time or money on my part.
4. The government should not try to control people's diets through "sin taxes," or restrictions on the size of sodas, and other such regulations. -- Generally agree, but similar to drugs think the government can still have a role in making awareness of impacts of various decisions part of the transaction. I'm fine with requiring calories on menus but with limiting how many calories can be on the menu.
5. Draft registration, mandatory jury service, and all other forms of mandatory service should be abolished. -- Less in agreement here. Since it is not actually possible to truly opt out of society while remaining in that society, I don't know that I agree that there isn't a role for requiring some contribution to that society.
6. We should legalize and use challenge trials for testing new vaccines against deadly diseases. -- Sure, again with the caveat of a regime to make sure that people participating are truly freely choosing to do so and not just out of economic desparation.
7. Government-imposed mask mandates and lockdowns should be forbidden -- Disgree. This is getting into the area where "my body, my choice" intersects with "my choice, your impact." Now, they should only be pursued if there is some reason to think they'll be effective (and sometimes those choices may need to be made before such data is fully available) but I have no problem with this type of body control. Just like I can't stand on a crowded train platform and swing my arms around wildly without regard for hitting other people.
8. People should be allowed to take experimental medical treatments not approved by government regulators. --Agree, though again with a regime to prevent fraud as is so common in the wackadoodle "Big Medicine is out to kill me" circles. As a consumer I have no ability on my own to determine impacts and efficacy and it isn't just a lack of time or money on my part and can't trust the other side of the transaction to be honest.
9. The Biden administration should drop its proposed ban on "vaping" and Juul e-cigarettes. -- I'm fine with this.
I agree with almost everything Ilya has written here, and I wish more people on both the right and the left, and even within the libertarian movement, would express an equally consistent view of bodily autonomy.
On the issue of vaccine mandates, I oppose any government mandate that would force people to get vaccinated against their will, but I support the right of private businesses to require (or not require) vaccinations for their employees and customers.
In addition, both public and private schools should be allowed to require -- or not require -- vaccinations for staff and students. If a parent doesn't agree with a school's policy, they should be free to send their children to a different school with a different policy, or to homeschool their kids.
When in comes to abortion, I would allow the woman to have complete control of her body up to the point where the fetus' brain has developed to the point where it has the same capacity as a newborn infant's brain. This is a scientific question, not a religious one.
Clearly, a one-day old fertilized egg does not have a brain. It doesn't have any internal organs whatsover. Likewise, a six-week old embryo may have a "heartbeat" but it has nothing resembling an infant's brain.
Quoting from Wikipedia:
---
Electrical brain activity is first detected at the end of week 5 of gestation, but as in brain-dead patients, it is primitive neural activity rather than the beginning of conscious brain activity. Synapses don't begin to form until week 17.[12] Neural connections between the sensory cortex and thalamus develop as early as 24 weeks' gestational age, but the first evidence of their function does not occur until around 30 weeks, when minimal consciousness, dreaming, and the ability to feel pain emerges.[13]
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I think you can argure that somewhere in the interval between 24 and 30 weeks, the fetus has sufficient neural development to be considered a human being. After that point, it becomes reasonable to consider the interests of the fetus alongside those of the mother.
When in comes to abortion, I would allow the woman to have complete control of her body up to the point where the fetus' brain has developed to the point where it has the same capacity as a newborn infant's brain.
1. Normal pregnancies, lasting to "term" are of variable length - anywhere betweem 38 and 42 weeks gestational age. So your line is already blurry.
2. Why "a newborn infant's brain" ? Newborn infants brains are hardly mature, and capable of doing everything an older child's is capable of doing. Why not set the line at, say, a three year old's brain ? For brain related reasons - human infants have big ones, hence big heads, hence there's a struggle to get them out from between the mother's pelvic bones - humans are born very much premature, compared to other, smaller brained, primates. A new born human is ready for pretty much nothing, and goes on being helpless for much longer that infants of other species. If you were making an objective line based on the infant's readiness to cope with the world, you'd certainly not set the line before 2 years old, and probably not before 5.
Setting the mental capability line at the level of brain development of a newborn, born at 40 weeks gestation, is a pretty arbitrary. A 40 weeker can't do much more than a 36 weeker, or much less than a 44 weeker.
The "exploitation of poor people" argument against choice is disingenuous and/or ignorant.
You can't help people who have two bad choices by eliminating one of the choices.
Also, denying that a choice is a choice is deflection. Some people find a choice so odious to them personally that they convince themselves that nobody else would or does make it. There already are laws against coerced actions.
Also, Veruca James. She's in porn. Porn is just prostitution with a guy filming it. Veruca James, before going into porn, was a CPA. She is obviously very smart and obviously wasn't desperate for money.
Everyone is pro choice for his or her own choices. Most people are anti choice for everyone else. It's a form of sociopathy.